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General Nitro
03-19-2004, 03:06 PM
ive seen this topic brought up several times, so i figured id give it its own thread even though there has most likely already been one. i hink the two should be seperate becasue they are totally different civs. But im ok with the idea of the combining occasionaly (like scenarios and stuff) to form something like a grand naboo army.

Darth Windu
03-19-2004, 03:30 PM
Well, my position is that they should be merged, with players able to use Royal Naboo only or Gungan only units for senario's. The reasons i think they shoud be merged are-

1. We see at the end of Ep1 that the Royal Naboo and Gungans had put aside their differences. In addition, we see that in Ep2 the planet Naboo is represented by both the Royal Naboo and Gungans, rather than just the Royal Naboo.

2. It allows other, more diverse civs to be added to the game without overcrowding and reducing civ uniqueness. In my template, this allows the addition of the Hutt Cartel.

3. It removes some of the, for lack of a better word, 'dumb' units. By this i mean Royal Naboo assault mechs and Gungan aircraft. Also, as i have mentioned before, going by canon units, the Gungans have a Navy, Infantry and a few 'mechs'. The Royal Naboo on the other hand have no Navy, light infantry, a few mechs and aircraft. Put these together and you get a full compliment.

4. It really does make sense. After the events of Ep1, the Royal Naboo and Gungans would have realised that neither could defend their planet, and hence would have begun co-operation and military co-ordination in order to better defend their planet, particually during the Clone War.

pbguy1211
03-19-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Well, my position is that they should be merged, with players able to use Royal Naboo only or Gungan only units for senario's. The reasons i think they shoud be merged are-

1. We see at the end of Ep1 that the Royal Naboo and Gungans had put aside their differences. In addition, we see that in Ep2 the planet Naboo is represented by both the Royal Naboo and Gungans, rather than just the Royal Naboo.

2. It allows other, more diverse civs to be added to the game without overcrowding and reducing civ uniqueness. In my template, this allows the addition of the Hutt Cartel.

3. It removes some of the, for lack of a better word, 'dumb' units. By this i mean Royal Naboo assault mechs and Gungan aircraft. Also, as i have mentioned before, going by canon units, the Gungans have a Navy, Infantry and a few 'mechs'. The Royal Naboo on the other hand have no Navy, light infantry, a few mechs and aircraft. Put these together and you get a full compliment.

4. It really does make sense. After the events of Ep1, the Royal Naboo and Gungans would have realised that neither could defend their planet, and hence would have begun co-operation and military co-ordination in order to better defend their planet, particually during the Clone War.

1. Big deal.

2. More diverse civs? Such as the Hutt Cartell? That just be some good weed. Please share. You have just contradicted yourself in your first two points. In point 1 you refer to the movies as an example of a Gungan-Naboo civ. So by that logic the Hutt Cartell would then be Jabba, Boba Fett a few other bounty hunters and what else? Troops? Mechs? Air? This leads to...

3. All you'd be doing is creating 'dumb units.' Which then makes this a 'dumb' idea.

4. Is a re-hash of point 1. And if you want to talk about the diverse crap, then they should both be kept in. Your EU stuff will never make it in. So keep dreaming.

General Nitro
03-19-2004, 09:02 PM
windu - u make a good point. its like they complete each other. i like it.

pbguy1211
03-19-2004, 10:05 PM
to quote a fellow forumer:
gameplay > realism

General Nitro
03-19-2004, 11:38 PM
an unrealistic star wars game defeats the purpose of it being star wars.

lukeiamyourdad
03-20-2004, 12:39 AM
But the destruction of gameplay defeats its purpose to be a good game.

Darth Windu
03-20-2004, 01:53 AM
pbguy - if you're going to try to refute my arguments, at least make an attempt to relate your rebuttles to the films, or at least EU.

As for the Hutt Cartel, we actually see many units in the films that can be used as their forces. Some of the possible units for the Hutt Cartel include-
- Weequey Infantry
- Gamorean Guards
- T-16 Skyhoppers
- V-34 Speeder
- X-35 Speeder (or whatever their designations are)
- Swoop Bikes
- Cargo Skiff's
- Sandcrawlers

and so on. As i said, this civ would play differently to the other civs due to their lack of a navy, and would also have a very unique art look, being from Tatooine. I would also like to point out that Boba Fett was NOT the only Bounty Hunter with Jabba, and Gardula the Hutt was also seen in Ep1.

Sithmaster_821
03-20-2004, 03:58 AM
pbguy-although I think that the two should be either merged (or cut entirely), its for far different reasons than Windu. Personally, I feel that there is, even with 8 civs, too many civs for the game to be sufficiently balanced in MP (in that I mean there isn't an OP civ and a crap civ) and remain both versitile (how fun would the game be if the rebs could only trooper rush, or the naboo boom) and unique (not these lame 5% bonuses where everyone is the same til t4). So I decided to cut out the extraneous stuff. The Wookies went out the window, along with the TF, with the Confeds stealing some of their concepts and units. As for the Naboo and Gungans, it seemed excessive to have them as two separate entities, and I know if I advocated dropping them, all the other people on this board would go nuts, so I took the middle road, and merged them together but still kept them apart (see other thread).

Windu-The Hutts are a bad idea on so many levels I don't know where to begin.

FroZticles
03-20-2004, 12:17 PM
pbguy makes all valid points which I back entirely

General Nitro
03-20-2004, 02:32 PM
hutt cartel should be a civ.

FroZticles
03-21-2004, 12:41 AM
Hutt cartel is the mafia of Star Wars and in all the games based on real life armies have you seen the mafia being added as a civ I dont think so.

Darth Windu
03-21-2004, 12:50 AM
froz - lol, feel like coming up with something original anytime soon? I actually wouldnt be suprised if you and pbguy were the same person...
As for the Hutts, you dont see the Naboo and Gungans running around killing and pillaging now do you? They stick to their planet, the Hutts stick to theirs. Hence, why should the Hutts be denied because of their prominance? As i said before, they would bring a unique playing style, and would look very different to every other civ.

sith - start at the beginning, i would like to know why you think they are a bad idea.

General Nitro
03-21-2004, 12:52 AM
yea froz. gameplay>realism.

FroZticles
03-21-2004, 11:47 AM
In this case both gameplay and realism are out the door so nitro has no idea.

Maybe because Tatooine is not there planet for one they are nothing more than common thugs. Next youll be saying jawas and tuskens can be there own civ.

General Nitro
03-21-2004, 03:26 PM
froz - think back to episode i and the words of qui gon jin. "tatoonie is run by the hutts". therefore, its practically theres.

lukeiamyourdad
03-21-2004, 05:33 PM
The Hutts don't have the man-power and cash to compete against the other civs. Realistically, they'll be crushed because they're just a bunch of undiscipline thugs who won't work together like a real army.

Admiral Vostok
03-21-2004, 09:47 PM
Despite Froz's poor grammar and punctuation he is saying what I have been saying all along. The Hutt's are an underworld power and never in the history of this world or the Star Wars Universe has a force like the Hutt Cartel or the Mafia marched to battle. This is what an RTS is about, sending armies to battle. The Hutt cartel just doesn't do that, so despite their importance in the Star Wars Galaxy as a whole, they should not be included as a playable civ.

It would make for both bad realism and gameplay.

FroZticles
03-22-2004, 05:27 AM
The Hutts donít want there illegal activities exposed and a military strike would not be a good idea. The Hutts would never dare come up against the Empire if Vader thought they were a huge military threat he would have wiped them out already.

Darth Windu
03-22-2004, 06:21 AM
Froz - i have never, and would not, suggest that Jawa's and Tuskens have their own civ. However, the Hutt Cartel is a powerful organisation with a lot of resources at it's disposal, and controlling at least one world.

luke - the Naboo dont have the manpower to compete against other civs, and WERE crushed in Ep1 - does that mean we shouldnt include them either?

Admiral Vostok
03-22-2004, 04:21 PM
Windu, I know you love telling people to read your posts, so let it be known I take great satisfaction in telling you the same thing.

You seem to be ignoring the best argument against the Hutts - they don't march to battle.

lukeiamyourdad
03-22-2004, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
luke - the Naboo dont have the manpower to compete against other civs, and WERE crushed in Ep1 - does that mean we shouldnt include them either?

Shouldn't that be why you're combining them with the Gungans? Who are you going to combine the Hutts with for them to have enough firepower to go up against any of the other civ?

General Nitro
03-22-2004, 09:02 PM
hey, with the kinda money the hutts have, they could hire an army.

lukeiamyourdad
03-22-2004, 09:13 PM
They could hire some mercenaries, but none of them are capable soldiers nor are they disciplined enough to fight in a war. Mercenaries don't make a good army.

Darth Windu
03-23-2004, 10:10 AM
Vostok, luke - what does it matter if they go off to war on other planets? As i said, the Naboo are the same.

With the Hutts though, their forces are basically made up of mercenaries (with Bounty Hunters as a unique unit) and their strength is in their economy - their unique building means that they dont need to collect resources in order to generate credits.

Admiral Vostok
03-23-2004, 07:44 PM
Amazing, truly amazing. You really shouldn't be telling people to read your posts if you won't do the same for us.

Luke's Dad and I never said the Hutts don't go to war on other planets. We said they don't go to war. Period. The Naboo are not the same because they do go to war.

FroZticles
03-24-2004, 01:16 AM
Mercenaries are not the Hutts forces, they work for whoever is paying for them. There is no way a mercenary is going to fight for the Hutts when they know they will die.

Darth Windu
03-24-2004, 08:49 AM
FroZ - that is an incredibly dumb thing to say. If mercenaries werent prepared to die, they wouldnt be mercenaries.

I mean, you do realise these people are soldiers-for-hire right?

FroZticles
03-24-2004, 11:07 AM
They are assasins they work under stealth conditions they are not gonna run up against the Empire and get slaughtered, well I guess you could have the Hutts put bounties on every stormtrooper the Empire has.

Darth Windu
03-24-2004, 12:23 PM
What!?!? Are you serious?

A Mercenary is neither an assasin, nor a Bounty Hunter.

A few meanings for the word 'Mercenary' are-
1. "hired to fight for a foreign ruler, army, or cause"
2. "a soldier serving for pay in a foreign army"

Which is exactly what the Hutt forces would be, hence the mix of Weequay's, Rodian's, Human's etc.

Admiral Vostok
03-24-2004, 08:24 PM
The Hutt Cartel doesn't fight wars Windu! Read my posts!

General Nitro
03-25-2004, 12:17 AM
would they fund wars?

FroZticles
03-25-2004, 12:25 AM
I think we should just stop listening to his ideas cause he is definately not tolerant of others.

Darth Windu
03-25-2004, 01:48 AM
vostok - PROVE IT. We see that in Ep6, Jabba isnt concerned about holding Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa and Han Solo prisoner and trying to execute them. Considering it would be difficult not to know how powerful the alliance was, dont you think Jabba would have at least a reasonably strong force to repel and attacks made against him?

Besides, as i said, the greatest strength of the Hutt Cartel is their abilities at economic warfare.

General Nitro
03-25-2004, 02:51 AM
econmic warfare? do they have a farm fest? explain please.

Darth Windu
03-25-2004, 05:30 AM
Well, first of all, as i said before, the Hutt unique building generates credits, and so the hutts have less reliance on collecting resources. In addition, they gain more credits through trading than other civs do (smuggling). This then allows the Hutts to expand quickly and without wasting resources on workers and resource buildings, plus gives them a surplus and source of income if there are no resources left on the map.

I was also thinking about giving them a unit or ability to steal other civ's credits, though im not too sure about that one yet.

FroZticles
03-25-2004, 06:21 AM
Hutts don't fight wars!!! PROVE THAT THEY DO!!!!!

Darth Windu
03-25-2004, 08:16 AM
The problem with that, frozo, is that you are saying that my claim to the Hutt Cartel as a civ is illegitimite because they dont go to war. Therefore, the onus is on YOU to prove that they don't, not on me to prove that they do.

FroZticles
03-25-2004, 11:39 AM
Name one war that the Hutts have fought in?

I rest my case

Darth Windu
03-25-2004, 12:37 PM
Name one war they didnt fight in.

Before you start rattling off things about the Civil War and Clone War, i should take this opportunity to point out that they were indeed involved in the Cvil War, and just because we didnt see and Hutt battles didnt mean that none took place.

lukeiamyourdad
03-26-2004, 01:36 AM
Actually Windu, you're just evading his arguments. He does give a good point. You can't prove that they fought any war.

We can however, say that we did not see they fight a real battle anywhere in the movies or in EU(as far as I know).

FroZticles
03-26-2004, 02:59 AM
Thats how Windu has always answered his questions he can never provide a strong core in his arguments. Ohhh I thought you didn't believe in EU so if none of the so called "Hutt Battles" were in the film I guess you don't believe they ever existed.

Go back and evade some more its what your good at.

Darth Windu
03-26-2004, 08:10 AM
luke - that is true, we never saw them fight. However, to use another of my never-ending real-world examples, Sweden has been neutral for over a century, even with conflicts like WW1 and WW2 raging all around it, and yet did (and still does) maintain a standing army, navy and airforce.
Who is to say the Hutts dont do the same thing? (ie. just because they dont fight doesnt mean they cant fight)

frozo - how many wars did we see the Wookiees (as a civ) in?

FroZticles
03-26-2004, 11:02 AM
We saw Chewie fighting in a few wars and the Wookiees are known from EU to have a sizable army where as the Hutts are only guards and gangsters. OK Windo

General Nitro
03-26-2004, 03:32 PM
what wars did we see chewie fight in?

Admiral Vostok
03-26-2004, 06:11 PM
Windu - Your real-world example is, once again, irrelevant. The Hutt Cartel is not a country or even a planet, it is an underworld crime syndicate. Therefore any real-world comparisons you should make need to be with the Mafia, the Yakuza, or any other underworld crime syndicate.

As for asking my to PROVE IT: it is a well known fact that it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. It is only possible to prove something does exist. Therefore I can't prove Hutt Cartel wars to exist, they can only be proved to exist. Therefore it is up to you to prove they exist.

But putting the intellectualism aside for a moment - the Hutt Cartel has never gone to battle not only in the movies, but throughout all of EU. I think this says something that you cannot ignore.

As for your example of holding Luke, Han and Leia hostage: I think the fact that these three (and Lando and the droids) were able to kill all of Jabba's force provides more evidence he doesn't have an army, especially when said army doesn't retaliate against the Rebellion for killing Jabba.

Nitro - Umm, unless I was watching the wrong movie trilogy, I'm quite sure Chewie fought in the Galactic Civil War.

lukeiamyourdad
03-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Nice army Windu...got slaughtered by 5 persons and two droids...yay!

Sithmaster_821
03-26-2004, 11:37 PM
just because we didnt see and Hutt battles didnt mean that none took place.
That has to be the worst arguement I've seen anyone use. Hey, lets give the Empire droidekas! Just because we didnt see them used doesnt mean they weren't used!

And everyone step back from the whole "can the Hutt's fight a war" thing. Look at it like this: civs need to hit the chopping board and who would you rather have in your game, the Hutts or the Rebels? Add that to the fact that they aren't a distinct civ, with a standing amry or the ability to declare war, they rank lower than the Wookies on the "fits the game ideal".

General Nitro
03-27-2004, 12:15 AM
guess i missed the galactic civil war part...

Darth Windu
03-27-2004, 12:54 AM
Vostok - with Sweden, thje point i was trying to make is that a nation or organisation doesnt have to get involved in wars in order to have military forces.

Also, as i said before, the onus is on you to prove they didnt fight, as that is your whole argument.

Finally, with Luke etc, he was a Jedi and Jabba was unprepared.

Sithmaster_821
03-27-2004, 01:30 AM
Its not my argument.........

lukeiamyourdad
03-27-2004, 01:30 AM
Lots of country never fight wars but still have a military force. They might do some peacekeeping with the UN.

You're just avoiding the argument to prove that they did fight a war. Since you've been countering the question with another question, it mines your credibility.

With the Luke thing. Sure they're unprepare...they can't even beat ONE single Jedi...let's send them against the Republic with their huge Jedi Army!

Sithmaster_821
03-27-2004, 01:37 AM
The Swiss have a military, but they are officially neutral in every single war.

Admiral Vostok
03-27-2004, 02:35 AM
Vostok - with Sweden, thje point i was trying to make is that a nation or organisation doesnt have to get involved in wars in order to have military forces.So you're saying we can play as the Hutts, and build an army, but since they don't fight in wars we can't really fight with them?Also, as i said before, the onus is on you to prove they didnt fight, as that is your whole argument.And what of the onus on you to prove they did fight?Finally, with Luke etc, he was a Jedi and Jabba was unprepared.So that was his whole army on the sail barge and handful of skiffs? I would have though if the Hutt Cartel had a standing army and one of the most prominent Hutts was killed, the Cartel might just use their army to retaliate against the Rebellion. Jabba certainly didn't waste much time exacting revenge on Han, I can't see that other Hutts would be at all averse to using their army against the Rebellion.

saberhagen
03-27-2004, 07:46 PM
The impression I got from ROTJ is that Jabba didn't give into Luke's demands because a) he was stupid and arrogant, and b) he thought he had already won by capturing Luke and all his friends. It certainly didn't suggest that he had a huge army and was prepared to fight a war.

But here's a new point: as Hutt "armies" are all mercenaries who fight for money and have no particular connection with the Hutt "civilisation" you could have those units in the game as mercenaries which could be hired by any civ. Best of both worlds: you get the cool looking units but don't have to waste time on an extra civ.

Admiral Vostok
03-27-2004, 08:24 PM
That sounds decent. For lack of a better analogy they could operate similar to the Mercenaries in WarCraft 3, where on particular maps their might be a Hutt Cartel Palace, and you purchase mercenaries such as Bounty Hunters, Gamorrean Guards, Desert Skiffs and maybe even a Rancor and his keeper. This gets around the weirdness of building Bounty Hunters yourself. Perhaps the Mercenaries only stay for a set amount of time, then they run home, unless you select to keep paying them.

Don't get me wrong, I would like the Hutt Cartel to have some presence in the game, much like they were in Clone Campaigns. But they just don't work as a playable civ. Are we still entertaining the idea of secret civs (not properly balanced civs that are just for fun like the Ewoks)? I think the Hutts are perfect for this idea. But as a fully fledged civ they don't really work.

Sithmaster_821
03-27-2004, 11:46 PM
I think that the Hutts fit in best the way it is now, as scenerio box units.

lukeiamyourdad
03-28-2004, 01:06 AM
NO! The Ewoks are supposed to be the funny secret civ! EWOKS FOREVER!

Admiral Vostok
03-29-2004, 05:04 AM
I'm just trying to make everyone happy here.

We must continue to rely on negotiations.

tFighterPilot
03-29-2004, 04:08 PM
This must be the stupidest thread ever!

I'm not gonna even say my opinion