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View Full Version : Important Issue with OJP/AotC Partnership


razorace
03-31-2004, 06:28 AM
Ok, Unique just gave me an ultimatum. Either OJP changes names or they are pulling out of our partnership. Apprenently they feel that my connection to the OJP name is too strong and would affect their reps if they partnered with it.

Frankly, I think this is stupid since it would require a lot of work to change names and will set a precidence for changing the name whenever some group want to join OJP. However, I'm willing to trust the OJP contributors on the subject.

To get a vote, the AotC staff either has to talk Phunk into supporting the idea OR talk a majority of the OJP contributors into supporting the name change.

Contributors count as anyone that has material accepted by OJP or who are fairly active OJP beta testers.

If you're in the above catagory and support the name change, please contact me or Phunk.

If you want a list of OJP contributors for lobbying purposes, just check out the OJP readme's credits.

Since this is a make or break issue, I'll not be messing with AotC stuff until this is successfully resolved.

keshire
03-31-2004, 07:16 AM
Well it'd be a better option to bug Phunk about it because I know I wouldn't budge. A name is a big deal when it involves respect for those who contibute. Which is what their beaf is.

I'm sure there are those who've contibuted to OJP that wouldn't want their names associated with AOTC. And if they came in And started making changes wich is what they want, then this basically turns into their project. Which it ain't.

In short, There is no "conditional" contibuting to OJP. Your either in or your out. It keeps things simple and sweet that way.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-31-2004, 09:14 AM
Apprenently they feel that my connection to the OJP name is too strong and would affect their reps if they partnered with it.


LOL.
That is damn funny.

Not particulary liking a name is one thing. Telling a group they HAVE to change their name before any co-operation can be had is something else!!

I honestly thought all this name stuff was a bit of a joke when we were talking about it with him...

And it would affect their reps?! Huh? Did I just time-warp back into primary school? Are our trainers not cool enough either?!
Heh - what is he afraid of if he mentions 'OJP'. Is he gonna get a wedgie or something?!


my connection to the OJP name is too strong


..what has this got to do with anything?!


Jeez - this is the worst example of style-over-substance thinking I've seen in a while. Oh - hang on - scratch the style part. What was the name Unique came up with when we were talking to him? ...can't be that good cos' I've forgotten it already..!

I say no - we dont' change our name just because someone who wants to work with us doesn't like it. There may be some hypothetical senarios where we may want to go to the hassle of changing our name, but this isn't one of them.

And I would suggest Unique takes a step back, get's over himself, develops a bit more respect for others and their descisions- and then learns to treat this partnership like a grownup. :rolleyes:

Pnut_Man
03-31-2004, 11:58 AM
Em, did he suggest on a name?

Zombie-Coding-Crew of AOTCTC?
Sorry, that is ridiculous...

Wudan
03-31-2004, 02:57 PM
I can't begin to express my frustration.

For one, they stand to benefit from this collaboration much more than you do, you can trust me on that. I was hoping that with ChosenOne up in the ranks and at the coding helm that they might see some real definitive progress.

Now they want a name change for OJP? Um, no, sorry, Razor, I think that the only rep being hurt would be yours. Don't change the friggin name.

As it is, if you took a week or two off from EVERYTHING else, and just tightened down the bolts and did some serious testing, OJP would be the best mod available for JA. If they don't want to help you, FINE. They can make their mod on their own, OJP-free, and even IF they have anything we like, we can duplicate their features HANDS DOWN.

I don't think they understand exactly who OR what they're messing with. Hey, I haven't always beleived in OJP, nor have I even really contributed to the project, but I really admire the progress and work produced so far. I shook my head in disbelief when I saw the AOTCTC collaboration coming down the line, but I figured, it couldn't hurt, Razor has a steady hand at censoring bad ideas.

Well, a name change, and perhaps the entire concept of collaborating with people who think that names are all important, should be placed in the 'bad idea' folder.

=========================================

PostScript: Also, I take offense to the name-tied-up thing. Razor is, irrefutably, the OJP spokesperson and the driving force, but I think that at this point, it is very near what he conceived it as - a gathering of skilled modders, each gathered for the common cause of improving the overall quality of mods. If'n yall ask me, if Razor had to go away (things happen), OJP would not crumble to dust.

lonepadawan
03-31-2004, 05:32 PM
Speaking as an unbiased observer....

I'd say keep OJP. Frankly in the short time you've been in existance you've produced and have in progress things far more impressive than AOTCTC which has been going for a far longer time. Also your a lot more professional than them. Their most outspoken meber and co-team leader doesn't seem to do anything whatsoever (except hang around various WIP threads... ), and both him and Anakin (no-offence meant to either of them) can't spell.

The way I see it, they were going to benefit far more from this relatioship than you were. If they are going to be rather childish about this then.... their loss.

razorace
03-31-2004, 07:31 PM
Thank you for your guy's opinions and kind words, but please, let's not mock their spelling abilities. There are those of us, including me, who simply have trouble spelling.

razorace
03-31-2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Wudan
As it is, if you took a week or two off from EVERYTHING else, and just tightened down the bolts and did some serious testing, OJP would be the best mod available for JA.

What sort of tweaks are you suggesting? I'm just curious.

I shook my head in disbelief when I saw the AOTCTC collaboration coming down the line, but I figured, it couldn't hurt, Razor has a steady hand at censoring bad ideas.

More like iron fist. Oh, wait.

razorace
03-31-2004, 08:03 PM
The AotC TC version of this thread is @ http://www.aotctc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=134

GothiX
03-31-2004, 08:19 PM
That thread, however, is now closed.

razorace
03-31-2004, 09:18 PM
Well, I beleive that settles it then.

I'm saddened by these turn of events, but I believe it's time to move on and hope this doesn't hurt the project.

Phunk and I have broken the news to Anakin. As of now, we are no longer trying to cooperate with the AotC team.

We might end up trying it again when they get their act together but we'll have to wait and see.

GothiX
03-31-2004, 09:20 PM
If anything, it'd hurt AOTCTC, since they've been using the cooperation with OJP to get attention.

[JEDI] Adam
03-31-2004, 09:38 PM
For me personaly partnership of OJP and AOTCTC was stupides idea I ever heard.

Some of you know me. I'm JK Mods Team Leader. Few months ago when we worked on one of our mods AOTCTC tryed to recruit people from us to work on their mod. I dont mind but our mapper had a lot of work with us and they didnt even checked if he's affilated with some team.

Anywya in that team you can also find people who still other ideas. If you want details read this (http://forums.jk2mods.com/viewtopic.php?p=721#721). I understand that my english isnt perfect and I'm still working on it. Its hard to master few languages in same time specialy when you mother language is one of most diffuclit languages to lern on world. I'm not calling anyone an idiot becous he cant spell something right - but some people from AoTC do like that.

And Renaming OJP was the second most idiotic idea I've ever heard.

zERoCooL2479
03-31-2004, 11:59 PM
Well, for one thing...I don't agree with razorace taking this public, since things should be handled internally before publically, but whatever. As far as the partnership goes, I thought it was a great idea. Alot of decisions were made without other persons consent on what we are doing with the name, code, etc. From what I understand, we are making an ultimate base code for all to use. However, the code was only to be released after we have forked out all of our hard work first, not simutaniously. Everyone knows how easy it is to simply change a define and call the mod your own, hence why we were supposed to release a version first before others got their paws on the code.

Next, is the name for OJP. Under no circumstances did we agree to change AOTCTC to OJP, nor vise versa. Together we may be "mirage studios" but that is all. I know razor is still doing his own project (OJP) as are we, the plan was to merge the code for mutual convenience. I dont know where the idea of making them change their name came about. That propaganda right there, should be dropped immediatly.

Our major concern with the powerhouse team that we have, was for people not to ward off of eachother but to work together. Separate projects are great, but teamwork to make something special is better. Perhaps a lot of us feel that all of our work is being taken for granted since we still havent been able to put out a demo because of time reasons. Frustrations set in, and people begin to blame others on the team for their lack of dedication.

I just don't see the logic in ending this partnership prematurely. I, on one hand, forsee that we can make something really great for everyone. Communication needs to come back into play on this one and agreements need to be made with the whole staff there, not just 1 or 2.

So yeah, thats my standpoint.

cHoSeN oNe out...

{JC}Unique1{JM}
04-01-2004, 04:30 AM
I think that we have now come to a new agreement. Obviously a name change was impossible for you guys and we have taken notice of your oppinions and backed down.

Razor Ace should be talking with you guys about the new agreement in the next day or so.

Unique1

{JC}Unique1{JM}
04-01-2004, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by GothiX
If anything, it'd hurt AOTCTC, since they've been using the cooperation with OJP to get attention.

Our code needed no attention gothix. But you wouldn't know.. Like everyone else here making these sorts of comments, you have NEVER SEEN our code. Nobody outside AOTC (except Razor) has.

In general our mods are quite different, but also very compatable for a merge. We have worked on different areas of JKA and I look forward to what will become a mod to be rememberred.

Unique1

keshire
04-01-2004, 04:39 AM
Well, for one thing...I don't agree with razorace taking this public, since things should be handled internally before publically, but whatever.

There's a reason its called OPEN Jedi Project. This isn't really just Razor's baby anymore. Its supposed to be accessible to the public with their opinions in mind.

razorace
04-01-2004, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by {JC}Unique1{JM}
Razor Ace should be talking with you guys about the new agreement in the next day or so.

Yes, that's right. Althou we are still backing out of our partnership with the whole of AotC TC, I've talked to both of the coders for the AotC project and I beleive we've come to an agreement with which they will be willing to participate in OJP.

The deal is that they want to hold off submitting any of their material until they feel that it is "done". AND that they'd like to have Chosen One be on the moderator staff, mainly so they have a say in OJP day-to-day operation. I think both terms are acceptable as long as the moderator duties are respected.

If and when the whole of AotC TC gets their act together, we'll be receptive in cooperatiing with them as well.

There's a reason its called OPEN Jedi Project. This isn't really just Razor's baby anymore. Its supposed to be accessible to the public with their opinions in mind.
agreed.

GothiX
04-01-2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by {JC}Unique1{JM}
Our code needed no attention gothix. But you wouldn't know.. Like everyone else here making these sorts of comments, you have NEVER SEEN our code. Nobody outside AOTC (except Razor) has.
..I'm not outside of AOTC:TC, and I do see the news posts sent by Anakin at various sites.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-01-2004, 09:29 AM
Everyone knows how easy it is to simply change a define and call the mod your own, hence why we were supposed to release a version first before others got their paws on the code.


Yeap, I totally understand this viewpoint, and I agree with that decision.


I dont know where the idea of making them change their name came about. That propaganda right there, should be dropped immediatly.


Well, it's not like Razor made that bit up - but anyway, it seems like the main proponent of this idea (Unique) has chosen to not persue this - so I guess we can put that behind us now and move on.

And thx Unique, for making the right choice.


I just don't see the logic in ending this partnership prematurely. I, on one hand, forsee that we can make something really great for everyone. Communication needs to come back into play on this one and agreements need to be made with the whole staff there, not just 1 or 2.


Yeah - I know what your saying C1. And I agree that the partnership could and should be benficial to both sides.

...but the fact is the idea of this was to get two whole groups of developers collaborating. And for that to happen, each side needs to know who speaks for the group and who doesn't.

When one of the AOTC team tells us they expect us to change our name, we naturally take that as AOTC's stance as a whole. If you don't want this kind of misunderstanding in future, I suggest AOTC tries to organise it's members to consult with each-other before going off on individual whims of fancy...
...either that or tell us to ignore all members but the appointed leaders etc. Whichever I guess - just make it clear what the deal is.


I just don't see the logic in ending this partnership prematurely.


I'm certainly still ok with trying to make this work. We just all need to be clear where we all stand...

btw, I know you quite well now C1, and I know that your sound as a pound :) So please don't see any of my compalints so far as anything personal to any one member of AOTC. (Expect where I've specifically said so).

keshire
04-01-2004, 09:32 AM
It'd also be great to have more people on board to get things rolling. With the nature of OJP people are in and out on a fairly regular basis as they work on their own stuff.

zERoCooL2479
04-02-2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by keshire
Well, for one thing...I don't agree with razorace taking this public, since things should be handled internally before publically, but whatever.

There's a reason its called OPEN Jedi Project. This isn't really just Razor's baby anymore. Its supposed to be accessible to the public with their opinions in mind.

I meant the whole argument thing. It should have been decided internally and then an announcement made publically. Its just the way business is held.

razorace
04-02-2004, 06:51 PM
We're not a business and neither is AotC TC. The purpose of OJP is to be a open development platform for the community.

Had you not wanted to this be discussed publicly, you shouldn't have let Anakin agree to any sort of partnership, and post about it to the world, until your issues were addressed.

Secondly, we were forced into this situation when someone was deleting/locking my threads on the AotC TC forum and people were not properly communicating concerns to us.

AotC's chain of command obviously doesn't exist. If a co-leader like yourself is not being kept in the loop on decisions, it's gotta be total chaos over there. We simply can't have a partnership with that sort of organizational structure and have a positive outcome. However, we can work with just the coders since we can communicate with you guys immediately and directly.

Master_Keralys
04-05-2004, 04:25 PM
I'd be glad to see cooperation continue. However: not to be rude, but there clearly needs to be an infrastructure analysis and change over at aotc, simply to keep misunderstandings from happening. As far as keeping it "internal", well, this is as "internal" as it gets, b/c OJP has always been open to the inputs of all those participating in the project, from regular idea contributors to beta testers to actual coders - that's what most of us around here truly like about it.

At this point, while I respect the AOTC team, I'm just hoping that decisions like this are made more as a group; that's just personal opinion and I'm not trying to slam you guys at all, just making a suggestion.

Unique1 - thanks for handling this well, along with Razor; we in the "support community" truly do appreciate it.

Anakin
04-08-2004, 11:58 PM
Ok, first I think it got a little too much for everyone to cope with, in the stupidest senses. The whole name change was a suggestion that was carried on to the next day, it was late for me and I wasn't really thinking well.

Now Im happy with the partnership, and I think we all got on the wrong foot to start with and things got out of hand. I belive now that its all sorted and we are working together now.

I think the focus is off a little at the moment with the demo giving us problems at the moment.

razorace
04-09-2004, 12:28 AM
So this is how you define working together? We broke off the partnership like over a week ago and I don't think I've even spoken with you since then.

We are kind of - sort of cooperating with the AotC TC coders but the contact is minimal and nothing has really been done in terms of cooperation. We've talked a bit, and I think Unique is suppose to merging some of the code but I haven't heard of any progress yet.

EDIT: That's not meant as a bite at the coders. We've all been busy. I'm in crunch time for my consulting job, Unique's been traveling, Chosen One is getting married, and Phunk's probably still messing with the Movie Battles 2 demo. I think the only person on task around here is Keshire. And he's kicking some animation butt, but he's going to be gone til monday.

RenegadeOfPhunk
04-09-2004, 03:11 PM
Phunk's probably still messing with the Movie Battles 2 demo


Well, technically I'm still tied up with that, but it's only really to do with getting linux builds running my end now - everything else is done. (I can't keep bugging Chosen One every time I make the tinniest change in my code base ;) )
It's still gonna take me a bitmore time to get this all sorted - I'm still a linux n00b - but I'm getting there. I hope to be making linux builds this weekend.

The work I'm doing now could be for OJP's benefit too -since I could make OJP linux builds.

...although I guess Chosen One could get access to the repository so that he can compile the builds directly too...

Kurgan
04-10-2004, 06:30 PM
If they won't budge on this name change issue, it's their problem (and their loss) as I see it.

Seems like a petty thing to reject a cooperative effort over.

But again, it's their ultimatum, so it looks like there's some ego problem involved. Too bad.

I hope you can work something out!

The_G.I.
04-14-2004, 06:32 PM
:swear: :explode: :duel: This is OUT OF HAND!!!This Mods Name is here to stay You F#####g ***heads of aotctc And those who think it should B changed:chop1: :lurkblast :firemad: :hang1:

Wudan
04-14-2004, 09:49 PM
No, they're past the name issue, now we're on to the different rates of progress issue ...

Well, as long as the coders are willing to share work, don't worry about Anakin too much. As long as it helps out AOTCTC, he won't raise a stink about it.

razorace
04-15-2004, 06:44 AM
*shrug* progress issues are minimum I think. As long as one project doesn't bottleneck the other, there's no problem.

lonepadawan
04-22-2004, 06:51 PM
If this partnership goes ahead will the OJP still be "Open"? AOTCTC seems to be pretty strict when it comes to usage of released files.

razorace
04-22-2004, 10:44 PM
Of course, that's a definite part of the current deal with the coders.

Anyway, it's not really so much of a partnership as it's them just submitting their good stuff to the project when it's "ready". In terms of cooperation, we haven't done anything.

I don't even think they're going to be using the OJP code. We will see.

lonepadawan
04-22-2004, 11:56 PM
*shrugs* Their loss....

I'm not being diplomatic am I? I think I'll shuttup now and go back to lurking. ;)