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Darth Windu
04-04-2004, 03:25 PM
Hi guys and girls. I have somewhat re-vamped my SWGB2 idea, the most major change being the reduction from 8 to 4 playable civs.

But anyway, you can go see it for yourself at http://www.geocities.com/icur_mmm/swagif.html?1081090046278

AFTER you have read it, please let me know what you think.

UPDATED 10/04/2004

lukeiamyourdad
04-04-2004, 09:14 PM
OK:


1. Why do the Separatists get more armour and HP for their buildings?

2. Do the flame droids damage nearby allied units?

3. Same question for the Dwarf Spider Droid.

4. What is the meaning of this: All buildings fire automatically when not garrisoned?(Galactic Empire)

5. What's the point of having both the Tie Fighter and the Tie Interceptor if they're all the same with slighty different stats?

6. IF ARC troopers can cloak who can detect them?

7. Shouldn't snipers be unique to the Rebellion?

8. Lower the gunship carry capacity to 4 or lower. Since it's already a good weapon as itself, having such a high carry capacity makes it overpowered.

9. What happens when a Rebel Commando captures a building? Is the unit lost or can we re-use its ability?

10. Why not just give the B-Wing an anti-mech attack bonus? It seems that making them disable mech is a bit complicated for nothing.

That's all for now. I skipped some other points I wanted to make since they don't really matter.

Admiral Vostok
04-05-2004, 07:16 AM
General
Stuff I like:
- City idea. Not bad.
- Weather, though if it occurs too often would get quite annoying.
Stuff I don't like:
- Why do the command versions have weaker weapons? That makes no sense.
- water transports. Don't take bad ideas from RoN. Especially when you can build air transports and fill them, it makes no sense to take an unrealistic shortcut to water transportation.
- Resources don't run out. This not only goes against realism but also makes bad gameplay.

Confederacy
Stuff I like:
- The command Droid normally gives bonuses to infantry, but can be put in an AAT to give the same bonuses to Mechs instead
Stuff I don't like:
- As Luke's Dad said, why do the Separatist buildings have more armour? They were made out of dirt in the movies.
- Where are all the Geonosians?

Empire
I find the Empire a little bland. They could be more interesting.

Republic
Stuff I like:
- Forward Command Center special ability. Fantastic. Really gives the Republic the flavour of the movies.
- Clone Speeder has anti-mech grenades... my favourite scene-not-in-the-movies
- Gunship capacity works for me.
Stuff I don't like:
- Clone Factory. That idea worked for Red Alert 2 because the Clone Factory actually made clones of each infantry guy you built. So one is the original, one is the clone, making an army of half originals, half clones. It doesn't work for Star Wars because every single clone comes from the same guy.
- I don't know where you got the idea that the Gunship is armoured. It has an exposed transport compartment! Combine this with the fact it is clearly slower than other aircraft we've seen and it would be possibly the weakest aircraft in the Star Wars Universe. Therein lies the answer to balance problems. It is not the AT-AT of the air.

Rebellion
Stuff I like:
- The Rebel Sniper is quite different to the Clone one.
- Units with R2s can self repair up to 50%
Stuff I don't like:
- Rebel Commander should be able to get in an X-Wing to give support to Aircraft like other civs do with Mechs.

Darth Windu
04-05-2004, 07:59 AM
luke-
1. Good question - im not sure why, but im sure it's for a good reason

2. Do you mean when they fire or when they explode? When they explode, they do indeed damage nearby allied units, though only in a small radius

3. See above

4. Well, when buildings are Garrisoned, they fire right? Well for the Empire, the buildings will fire all by themselves, garrisoned or not, although ungarrisoned buildings dont deal out much damage

5. TIE Fighters are cheaper, and good for providing air cover for your forces, whereas the TIE Interceptor is somewhat more expensive and is best for attacking bombers before they get to your base

6. Jedi/Sith can detect all units, and im thinking of giving Officers/Commanders that ability as well

7. Possibly, but then there was a poll a little while back and the forum said they wanted Sniper's for the Republic instead of Repeater Troopers

8. The problem there is that you would then be able to put, for example, a grand total of 2 Jedi into one Gunship and that seems a bit low for me

9. The building then is useable by the Rebellion

10. Because that's the job of the T-47, besides, the B-wing isnt only useful against Mechs

Vostok-
General-
1. Command versions get weaker weapons because they need the room for communications gear, but also to discourage people simply making armies of Command AT-ST's for example. The Officer is a very useful unit, but needs to be protected

2. Water transports, this just seems to be the easiest way to do things

3. Resources - part of my strategy of concentrating more on battle, but like everything else it can be changed

Confederacy-
1. Dont know why i did that, i'll get back to you

2. I really dont see the Geonosians as part of the Seperatists, just as weapons manufacturers, and i just figured they werent needed, and would look out of place on the Galactic Battlegrounds

Empire-
1. Well, cant do much about that unless you tell me why they are bland

Republic-
1. Clone Factory - this building is there to represent the clone army, and also takes some of the burden of the clones off the player, considering they are the most expensive infantry in the game

2. I didnt say it was well armoured, just that it has some. As good as it is, if you send them out without starfighter support they will be slaughtered by fighters

Rebels-
1. Well, the only thing with that is that it's too complicated. I guess it could be done, but i think id prefer the Commander to be in a T-47 instead if i were to do it

Admiral Vostok
04-05-2004, 06:44 PM
You should have used continuous numbering in your reply, Windu...

Comments on Windu's comments on my comments:
General
1. I'm not suggesting they get stronger, just that they don't get weaker. If they get weaker it will make people hide them rather than have them lead. Also I assume Officer auras aren't cumulative, so making an army of Officer Mechs would be rather pointless, and hideously expensive, so there isn't a problem there.

2. That is the easiest way to do water transports, it's true. That doesn't make it the best. Transporting units is supposed to be complicated, requiring a bit of thinking. Please don't take RoN's crappy answer to it.

3. If you want to concentrate more on battle, you should do things like C&C Generals does. They only have one resource which can run out, but late in the game you can build units or buildings that generate cash for you - much like the banking building the Confederacy have in your plan. This means early in the game resources are an issue, but late in the game they aren't at all. By the time you've run out of resources, you've hopefully set up enough credit-generating buildings or units that you are set.

Confederacy
4 (start continuous numbering). Okay, you had better get back to me...

5. Sure the Geonosians are manufacturers, but they are still a large part of the Confederacy. And they have such cool units it would be a shame not to add them. The Geonosian Fighter, Geonosian Warrior and Sonic Cannon at the very least should be included, and maybe the Picador, and Drone to have a second type of worker. My second favourite scene-not-in-the-movies sees a whole heap of Geonosian Warriors descending from the skies to attack a group of Clones. They should be there.

Empire
6. Well none of the units have any special abilities, the civ as a whole has no cool abilities... I don't know, just seems a little boring.

Republic
7. But the Clone Factory doesn't make any sense! You aren't cloning each Clone Trooper, you're cloning just the one guy! Some ideas from other games are okay, but when they don't fit the context they are not okay. What about just building that doubles the production speed of barracks in a radius? Makes much more sense for Star Wars.

8. Well if the Gunship has some armour then every single aircraft in Star Wars has some armour, because the Gunship is possibly the lowest armoured aircraft in the movies.

Rebels
9. I don't see how it is moe complicated than putting a guy in a Mech, and not having it greatly disadvantages the Rebels. While other civs can have Commanders for both infantry and mechs, the Rebels can only do so for infantry. A little unblanaced don't you think?


Oh and by the way, I liked your Republic reinforcement idea so much I mentioned it on the Star Wars: Imperial Assault forums, because I think it is perfect for a Generals Power. I gave you the credit though, just thought you might like to know.

lukeiamyourdad
04-05-2004, 10:34 PM
Reply to Windu's comment toward me

9. Only one thing...I know that...I just wanted to know if the Rebel Commando could capture more then one building or is it a one-time use unit?

I thought the SnowSpeeder had the worst armor by far...

Admiral Vostok
04-05-2004, 11:37 PM
Well despite the fact they had to remove armour to adapt them to the cold, I still think the Gunship would be easier to kill. I mean look at it, it has an open passenger deck! Also I feel I should add that the Gunship does not have sheilds in case any one was under the impression they did. We know this because Mace Windu uses his lightsaber to deflect an incoming bolt whilst travelling in a gunship.

The Gunships vulnerability is key to balancing out it's effectiveness. Here we have the perfect case of where Reality makes better Gameplay. Yes, it is well armed, it can transport troops and has missiles, but it is easy to kill.

lukeiamyourdad
04-06-2004, 01:20 AM
I see. So the gunship would be rather slow moving, have lousy armor but great firepower.
Perhaps we should make it vulnerable to interceptor units(A-Wing, Tie interceptor)?

FroZticles
04-06-2004, 01:37 AM
The only problem I have is the Jedi Padawan is cheap and fast building..... We are talking about a Jedi here right. Jedi Infantry I repeat a quote from Mace Windu. "We are keepers of the peace not soldiers" And the creatures strong vs Jedi hell they couldn't even kill Padme and they were all unarmed.

The gunship should be weak vs missiles and other fighters gun fire. Not so agile or as fast as most fighters.

Darth Windu
04-06-2004, 11:00 AM
Vostok-
1. Yeah, but then why would you have just standard AT-ST's when you can have command AT-ST's?

2. Well, that all depends on keeping water combat

3. That could be done

4. I removed it

5. As i said, i just dont see them as part of the Confederacy military. That would be like having Kaminoan units in the Republican army

6. Not much i can do about that...

7. Well...i like it. As i said, it is part of the cloning process and makes Clone Troopers a bit more econjomical considering their high cost

8. That depends on your point of view

9. I've just added a Command T-47 Airspeeder

luke-
It would be a one-use-only unit

Froz-
Remember though that you are building Padawans/Apprentices, they have to earn their Knight status.

Admiral Vostok
04-06-2004, 05:52 PM
1. Because Command AT-STs are more expensive (you have to build the Commander). I'm assuming the Commander is killed when his AT-ST is also killed, so if you've got an army of Command AT-STs that's a lot of money wasted everytime one dies.

2. Indeed. Which in your template you are. So no to no-effort-transports.

5. You did see Attack of the Clones, right? As I remember it, the Kaminoans did no fighting whatsoever, whereas a lot of Jedi were killed by Geonosians. So your analogy makes no sense.

7. Well I think the fact it is an obvious rip-off, combined with the fact it relates in no way whatsoever to the movies makes it a bad idea.

8. No it doesn't, it's a fact. Luke's Dad and Froz described the Gunship perfectly. Not too speedy, not agile, not armoured much, but with great firepower and transport capabilities.

10. I also think Jedi Padawans should not be cheap and fast building. There will be too many of them around if that is the case.

FroZticles
04-07-2004, 03:25 AM
Geonosians are apart of the Confederacy military they killed countless Jedi in the arena, if you saw the extension of the clone war on dvd you would have seen a swarm of geos flying towards the clone troopers and being shot down.

Darth Windu
04-07-2004, 10:50 AM
Vostok-
1. Yes, the Officer would be killed, but i still think the Command AT-ST and it's eqivalents need to be more vulnerable than standard AT-ST's, just like an Imperial Officer is more vulnerable than a Stormtrooper

2. I'm actually considering removing all naval units at the moment

5. Of course i did, but what im saying is that the Geonosians are weapons builders for the Confederacy, and only engaged the Republic because their world was being invaded - think of them as Geonosian 'National Guard'

7. I can change it to your suggestion of reducing Tropper building times/costs

8. Again, i didnt say it was well-armoured, but you have to remember than Battle Droid weapons didnt even dent the Gunships - they would only be vulnerable to heavy weapons

10. I suppose you're right, okay, ill make them slightly longer to build and more expensive

FroZ-
As i just said to Vostok, the Geonosians were fighting because their world had been invaded by the Republic, not because they were a part of the Confederacy military

Darth Windu
04-07-2004, 01:46 PM
Hi again people - just letting you know that i have made some major changes to my template, effective as of 07/04/2004. The changes i have made are-

1. Removal of all Naval Units and water combat

2. Addition of Republic 'V-19' Starfighter as a stop-gap before players can access the superb Jedi Starfighter

3. Addition of the 'Imperial Plasma Trooper' to do...well read my template and you'll find out

I've also made a few changs to the website itself, i'd appreciate feedback on that as well.

Thanks.

Admiral Vostok
04-08-2004, 12:45 AM
You forgot to get rid of the Clone Factory. It is so wrong. How about making it when you build the Clone Factory, infantry are produced twice as fast?

As for Geonosians, I see your point. Geonosian National Guard was a good analogy for once. I haven't seen any of the Clone Wars animations, do Geonosians fight in them?

Darth Windu
04-08-2004, 02:31 AM
Vostok - alright, it's changed. The Clone Factory now halves the building time and cost of non-Jedi infantry units

BTW what did you think of my other changes, and the template overall?

FroZticles
04-08-2004, 02:57 AM
Geonosians did fight in the Clone Wars but it was cut out, I guess the editors needed to cut down time.

I can see all the bonuses but what about the disadvantages, we see Confed with max population but where the disadvantage to counter that huge bonus they get.

Darth Windu
04-08-2004, 05:43 AM
FroZ - i have already addressed that. I said that, yes, the Geonosians did fight, but they were fighting to defend their planet from the Republic, not as part of the Confederacy military.

FroZticles
04-08-2004, 04:39 PM
So guarding the Seperatists leaders and droid factories is just defending there planet?

I can't believe you honestly believe the geonosians didn't sign the treaty and join the Seperatists and hand over there military to them.

Ohhh and a quote from you Windu PROVE IT!!!!!

Admiral Vostok
04-08-2004, 10:35 PM
Geonosians did sign the treaty, however do you think they would contribute Geonosians to the Confederacy Army, or battle droids?

I tend to agree with Windu on this one. The only reason the Geonosians fought in the Battle of Geonosis (note this is not the entire Clone Wars) is because their planet was being invaded.

Darth Windu
04-09-2004, 02:39 AM
FroZ - well actually, i don't recall the Geonosians actually signing the treaty, but anyway the Geonosians are weapons builders, not part of the Confed army.

Their economy rests on producing weapons for the Techno Union, Trade Federation etc - so of course they will protect the leaders!

The thing is though, that the Confed army is DISPOSABLE - ie battle droids, droid tanks, AAT's dont strain manufacturing capability, all you have to do is build a new one. Geonosians, on the other hand, have to be born and grown, and due to their weapons-building enterprises, are not disposable.

FroZticles
04-09-2004, 08:13 AM
The geonosian fighters played a huge role in the Clone Wars and in the micro series we actually saw hundreds of them flying Anakin and the clones in space . Geonosians were piloting them so there they are apart of there military.

Darth Windu
04-09-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by FroZticles
(1) The geonosian fighters played a huge role in the Clone Wars and (2) in the micro series we actually saw hundreds of them (3) flying Anakin and the clones in space . (4) Geonosians were piloting them so there they are apart of (5) there military.

1. The Geonosians Fighter's didnt even play a big role in the Battle of Geonosis so i don't know how you figured that out

2. So? That's EU.BTW, i havent actually seen the micro-series, where did you see them and what were they doing?

3. I don't understand what you mean by that

4. Piloting what?

5. Whose military? As i said, the Geonosians were fighting to defend their planet from the Republic, not as a part of the Confederacy military.

Think of it this way, if we saw the Republic and Naboo fighting the Confederacy because the Confed's had invaded Naboo, would you automatically assume the Naboo are part of the Republic military?

FroZticles
04-09-2004, 05:53 PM
They were protecting a Confederacy battleship. Anakin and the clones in there fighters were attacking the confed ship. Then a wave of geonsian fighters came out of it.

Well the fact that the Confederacy would have no reason to invade the Naboo, so its just a stupid statement.

Darth Windu
04-10-2004, 02:45 AM
FroZ - Well the fact that the Confederacy would have no reason to invade the Naboo, so its just a stupid statement.

It was a question, not a statement, and you still haven't answered it.

Darth Windu
04-10-2004, 03:14 AM
Hello folks, i have updated my idea (again) with a few changes, the biggest of these being the introduction of 'Generals'. Before accusations start flying, they arent like C&C: Generals, but basically super-units that you command throughout each civ's single-player campaign. There are therefore only 4 Generals, one for each civ, which are very powerful, hard to kill, have Officer abilities and can garrison almost any mech or aircraft to create a Command version. Unfortunately, my web site is giving me grief so i havent uploaded the new template yet, i'll try again later today. In the meantime, the Generals are-

Confederacy - General Greivous
Empire - Darth Vader
Republic - General Obi-Wan Kenobi*
Rebellion - Luke Skywalker

* When you read my idea, you will see why i have chosen Kenoib over others such as General Windu ;)

FroZticles
04-10-2004, 03:17 AM
Sorry I was trying one of your evading methods.

If Naboo were fighting the Confed with the Republic I would not join them, but that still just explain that the geonosian fighters were in space protecting a confed ship which you still haven't accounted for.

Darth Windu
04-10-2004, 03:26 AM
FroZ - with the Geonosians protecting a Battleships, i really can't say much about it because i haven't seen any of the 'Clone Wars' cartoon's, but that aside, the series is pure EU anyway, and is contradicted by the video game 'Clone Wars' where the Droid Starfighters are the Confed aircraft.

FroZticles
04-10-2004, 03:34 AM
The Clone Wars game is pure EU also so you can't have really back your claims up wth that since your such a EU hater.

Admiral Vostok
04-10-2004, 04:59 AM
Actually Windu, it isn't "pure" EU, and I in fact think it is the highest form of EU. And Froz is right, the Clone Wars game is EU, and I believe a lower form of EU than the Clone Wars miniseries. Strange that contradiction with EU should concern you, being a "purist" and all...

As for the Geonosians, the fact is until Episode III is released there is no proof one way or the other that the Geonosians do or do not fight alongside the Confederacy, so lets all put aside the flamethrowers yet again.

Darth Windu
04-10-2004, 07:57 AM
Well, frankly, i don't care about the Geonosians, the way i see it, they are not part of the Confederacy military and i'm not going to put them in unless there is something in the films that says otherwise.

Anyway, my newest update is available at my site now, so come on people, comment on my new additions!

FroZticles
04-10-2004, 11:20 AM
1.You mention there strengths but never there weaknesses

2.Your tech leveling is not that great you have chosen these powerhouse civs and get you want to weaken them with these crappy tech levels.

3. Greivous sounds powerful but it sounds like he will dominate all your other Jedi heroes. (plus we all know my stance of movie heroes in RM)

4. Why does your buildings increase pop limit you want your clone living in the air hanger?

5.Your template is very rushed try to fill it out alot more

6. You said you would explain why you chose obi-wan where is it?

7. Wats the max pop for the civs?

8. There is no visible disadvantages like who has better troops, mechs air or jedi?

9. Your template needs a manage balance half of the things in here like a Ion Cannon........

10. Why is the Jedi starfighter the best we didn't see it do much did not fire its lasers once.

11. I thought your game was inter-galactic battles if your borders should them from landing and setting up bases then its gonna turn out to be the team who can mass the biggest air fleet.

Darth Windu
04-10-2004, 12:55 PM
1. They don't have any 'weaknesses'. The thing is that each civ has it's own area of strength, and things get balanced out that way, there is no need to weaken them anywhere.

2. There are no tech levels...

3. Well, first off, there will be no Heroes in RM, only in the single-player campaign. Also, the Heroes wouldnt actually fight each other, but Grievous would slaughter Jedi

4. The airbase increases pop limit because that's where the Pilot's would live :)

5. Like how? I assume you want more detail, but the problem there is that i cant, and wont even try, to balance this down to number of hitpoints or exact armour value - i cant do that and im not trying to do that

6. Because the end of the Confed campaign is the Invasion of Alderaan, and the beginning of the Republic campaign is the Liberation of Alderaan. Remember in Ep4 Leia tells Obi-Wan that "you served my father in the Clone War..."

7. It's actually in the template, it's 600

8. Actually it's pretty easy to see (to me anyway). For example, the Republic has very powerful, but very expensive, Infantry. The Confederacy have the weakest air, but they are built quickly and cheaply.

9. I'm not sure what you point is

10. Simple, because it's piloted by Jedi

11. I'm not quite sure i understand your question correctly, but anyway borders only affect where you can build structures and what resources you can collect - nothing else.

FroZticles
04-10-2004, 06:19 PM
1. So a troop isnt weak against a gunship?

2. What do you exspect to limit your players with? AT-AT fireing at your base in 5mins of game time?

3. Good to hear

6. Hopefully we will have a great Ep 3 battle where Obi-Wan slices off nearly off of anakins limbs.

9. Things like a Ion cannon won't that overpower a civ?

10. Hmmm I guess it could work.

Darth Windu
04-11-2004, 03:32 AM
1. Oh right, i thought you meant weaknesses for the Civ's as a whole. My template outlines what units are good and bad against. An example is the Gunship, it rips apart battlefield units, but is easily killed by Fighters of Anti-Air emplacements

2. You should read the template again. In it, i state that there is an area of research called Military Research. By investing in this, you gain access to new units and upgrade unit armour, speed, firepower etc with the frequency of units and upgrades depending on the amount of Credits you invest. So, with the Empire, you would only have access to a few units, but by investing in Military Research you would gain access to the AT-PT, then the AT-ST and finally AT-AT

6. Well, i dont see how that has to do with my campaign idea, but still...

9. Nope. You have to remember that the Rebels have the Ion Canon, the Republic has the Forward Command Post, the Confederacy has the Droid Control Center, and the Empire has the Starfleet Uplink. Each is very powerful/useful in it's own right, and since each civ gets one, they wont be advantaged

10. I thought so :)

FroZticles
04-11-2004, 07:43 AM
6. It wasn't a idea it was relaying to the upcoming movie.

Darth Windu
04-11-2004, 01:31 PM
FroZ - yeah, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my idea...

Darth Windu
04-12-2004, 09:56 AM
So everyone agree's then that my idea is a perfect rendition of what SWGB2 should be like?

saberhagen
04-12-2004, 10:52 AM
I don't care about SWGB2 any more cos I've just heard that someone's making a WH40K RTS. ;)

lukeiamyourdad
04-12-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
So everyone agree's then that my idea is a perfect rendition of what SWGB2 should be like?


NO! :D

It's not my perfect game but hey, it's what YOU want. We only send out our criticism.

Darth Windu
04-12-2004, 03:52 PM
luke - actually, you havent criticised my idea at all after those few questions...

The whole point of creating this template is not to create MY perfect game, but to create THE perfect game. To do this, i would really like some (constructive) criticism from every forum member here!

lukeiamyourdad
04-12-2004, 11:06 PM
We all have different views. You can't create everyone's perfect game.

Darth Windu
04-13-2004, 01:56 AM
luke - while that is true, the only way i can make my template better is by having it criticised, and at the moment that's not happening.

For example, the only person who has mentioned my 'Generals' idea was only asking why Obi-Wan was the Republic's General.

FroZticles
04-13-2004, 03:57 AM
Windu we could probably come up with alot of bad things in there but its not worth it you don't listen anyway.

Darth Windu
04-13-2004, 05:58 AM
How do i not listen? The community decided it wanted 4 main civs, i modified my template to fit that. Vostok had issues with my 'Clone Factory' idea, so i modified that.

Besides FroZ, if you don't tell me what you think is wrong, there is no way for me to fix it is there?

Admiral Vostok
04-13-2004, 03:47 PM
Admittedly you do seem to be listening a lot more than usual.

Well I think that the four civs are in general too generic. They operate the same way pretty much. Include more information about resource gathering, population accumulation, trading (if any).

saberhagen: You're a WH40K fan? Me too. I'm hanging out for the RTS too... though to be honest I don't have a whole lot of faith it will be great...

Darth Windu
04-14-2004, 02:37 AM
Vostok - well that all good, but how are my civ's too generic? Also, with resources gathering etc, do you mean you simply want more detailed info, or do you want differences between the civs?

FroZticles
04-14-2004, 04:47 AM
How about both?

Darth Windu
04-14-2004, 06:56 AM
I guess i can do that, not sure when though, because at the moment i'm re-vamping the Australian Constitution

Admiral Vostok
04-14-2004, 02:09 PM
Okaaay...

Are you just going to copy bits from the best constitutions from the rest of the world? :D Just kidding.

Darth Windu
04-15-2004, 03:03 AM
Very funny Vostok. No, it's for a uni assignment, we have to alter the constitution in some form to make it better, mine is to create a Republic.

But anyway, won't SOMEBODY comment of my Generals?

Admiral Vostok
04-15-2004, 01:23 PM
Most of the Generals seem okay except for Luke Skywalker. I don't remember him ever turning Stormtroopers away from the Dark Side. His power makes no sense.

Now, with respect to being too generic:
At the moment everyone gets a single type of Worker, which are all the same from civ to civ, and Medics are also available to everyone except the Separatists. That is a bit too generic for my likes.

For example in C&C Generals (which your design has the most in common with) Workers are quite unique from civ to civ. The USA resource collector is the Chinook, which is an aircraft an a transport that carries 600 supplies. China has the Supply Truck, which is a vehicle that carries 300 supplies. The GLA has the Worker which is infantry and carries 75 supplies. As you can see, all different and all unique. When I put up my new design you'll see just how different and unique workers can be.

What about where the Workers drop their resources off to? At the moment it is very generic. Admittedly it was also quite generic in C&C Generals, but it doesn't have to be. One of the best things I like about Age of Mythology (although the game as a whole has fallen out of my favour) was that each civ had a different way of gathering resources. The Greeks built one building for Food and one for Gold and Wood together, while they had to worship at their temple for Favour. The Egyptians built separate buildings for Wood, Gold and Food, and had to construct monuments to amount Favour. The Norse had a mobile drop-off point that could be used for all resources, and got Favour in combat. The Atlanteans villagers actually counted as drop-off points, so while they gathered the resources were immediately added to the stockpile - no need to return to a building. Unfortunately I got so bored with Titans I can't remember how the Atlanteans got Favour... but I'm sure it was good.

Also instead of giving everyone a Medic (because even in EU, the only civ with field medics are the Republic) perhaps each civ could have different ways of healing. For example, because as I just mentioned the Republic are the only ones with a field medic, perhaps they're the only ones with a medic unit. The Separatist medic is their worker, as you've got already. The Rebels might have to build a Medical Bay, which is a building that heals nearby units. The Empire, because they have a never-ending supply of manpower, might not have any way to heal units. There you go for more uniqueness.

And what about trading? At the moment it's all the same for everyone. So there's room for more uniqueness. And while on the subject of trading it mentions that at the Spaceport you can buy and sell resources for credits. If there is only the one resource how exactly does this work?

You've also got power supplies very similar to C&C Generals, but whereas their power supplies differed from civ to civ the only place you've introduced uniqueness is that the Republic doesn't use power supplies. There is plenty of room for uniqueness there.

So forget your Uni work and get to making the civs more unique! Or better yet get your Uni work done and wait a couple more days for me to put up my new design to show you how it's done.

Darth Windu
04-16-2004, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
(1) Most of the Generals seem okay except for Luke Skywalker. I don't remember him ever turning Stormtroopers away from the Dark Side. His power makes no sense.

Now, with respect to being too generic:
At the moment (2) everyone gets a single type of Worker, which are all the same from civ to civ, and (3) Medics are also available to everyone except the Separatists. That is a bit too generic for my likes.

For example in C&C Generals (which your design has the most in common with) (4) Workers are quite unique from civ to civ. The USA resource collector is the Chinook, which is an aircraft an a transport that carries 600 supplies. China has the Supply Truck, which is a vehicle that carries 300 supplies. The GLA has the Worker which is infantry and carries 75 supplies. As you can see, all different and all unique. When I put up my new design you'll see just how different and unique workers can be.

(5) What about where the Workers drop their resources off to? At the moment it is very generic. Admittedly it was also quite generic in C&C Generals, but it doesn't have to be. One of the best things I like about Age of Mythology (although the game as a whole has fallen out of my favour) was that each civ had a different way of gathering resources. The Greeks built one building for Food and one for Gold and Wood together, while they had to worship at their temple for Favour. The Egyptians built separate buildings for Wood, Gold and Food, and had to construct monuments to amount Favour. The Norse had a mobile drop-off point that could be used for all resources, and got Favour in combat. The Atlanteans villagers actually counted as drop-off points, so while they gathered the resources were immediately added to the stockpile - no need to return to a building. Unfortunately I got so bored with Titans I can't remember how the Atlanteans got Favour... but I'm sure it was good.

(6) Also instead of giving everyone a Medic (because even in EU, the only civ with field medics are the Republic) perhaps each civ could have different ways of healing. For example, because as I just mentioned the Republic are the only ones with a field medic, perhaps they're the only ones with a medic unit. The Separatist medic is their worker, as you've got already. The Rebels might have to build a Medical Bay, which is a building that heals nearby units. The Empire, because they have a never-ending supply of manpower, might not have any way to heal units. There you go for more uniqueness.

(7) And what about trading? At the moment it's all the same for everyone. So there's room for more uniqueness. And while on the subject of trading it mentions that at the Spaceport you can buy and sell resources for credits. If there is only the one resource how exactly does this work?

(8) You've also got power supplies very similar to C&C Generals, but whereas their power supplies differed from civ to civ the only place you've introduced uniqueness is that the Republic doesn't use power supplies. There is plenty of room for uniqueness there.

(9) So forget your Uni work and get to making the civs more unique! Or better yet get your Uni work done and wait a couple more days for me to put up my new design to show you how it's done.

1. I agree, but i couldn't figure out any unique power for him

2. Yeah, because i cant figure out anything else to do. I did have the Jawa Sandcrawler as the Hutt resource center which i thought was cool, but thats gone now

3. Well, a medic is a medic...

4. That really doesnt work in my template, because i have infantry collectors (workers) and aircraft traders

5. Again, i cant really think of anything unique to do. As i said, i did have the Sandcrawler, but not anymore

6. Not a bad idea, must take a closer look

7. Well not really. Everyone's trading vessel is different. For example, the Imperial Shuttle doesnt carry a great deal, but has self-defence weapons and is relatively fast. On the other hand, the Republic AA-9 Transport is slow, but has heavy armour and carries double that of the Imp's.

8. I guess...

9. Yeah, THAT's going to happen :). I actually figured out i have an extra week to do these assignments so i might edit my template today.

Admiral Vostok
04-16-2004, 03:31 AM
4. I know you do. My point was you don't have to.

1-3,5-8. So your answer is "I couldn't think of anything better." Well take a look at my design and be in awe. ;)

9. Yay.

Darth Windu
04-16-2004, 06:07 AM
Actually i've taken some of your criticisms onboard, i've givena lot more detail to the end-game resource problem, removed most of the Jedi, and overhauled the 'medic' question.

With Medics, they are gone from my game, with healing now performed by-

Confederacy - workers heal all units

Empire - no healing units

Republic - units riding in Gunship and AT-TE are gradually healed

Rebellion - rebel infantry gradually heal themselves (due to their essential knowledge of battlefield medicine)

Also, i have slightly changed the gathering of resources, with the Empire and Republic replacing their Worker Droid's with the AT-CV (All-Terrain Construction Vehicle) which is larger and more expensive than WD's, but holds more cargo and is harder to kill. Also, the Imperial version has slightly more armour, slightly less carry capacity, is slower, and has self-defence weapons as compared to the Republic version.



But anyway, there is an update available at my website, so everyone check it out!

Darth Windu
04-17-2004, 06:45 AM
Come on people, COMMENT!

FroZticles
04-17-2004, 10:41 AM
I dont like any of the new healing, in through template for confed everything is a droid so its really repairing not healing.

Darth Windu
04-17-2004, 12:25 PM
FroZ - okay then, what would you suggest as a better system?

Darth Windu
05-02-2004, 12:46 AM
Hi people. Just letting everyone know that i have updated by SWB2 idea. The changes include-

- specifying exactly how airfields work, i quite like the system

- addition of two new units, the Jedi Starfighter Pilot and Rebel Pilot. Besically, the JSFP can (but doesnt always) eject from a JSF, then becoming a standard Jedi (Padawan, Veteran Padawan or Knight depending on JSF rank) when they hit the ground. The Rebel Pilot can eject from the X-wing, Y-wing, B-wing, A-wing or T-47, and keeps the aircraft's rank with him/her. The Rebel pilot can then garrison any other aircraft, transferring their rank onto that new aircraft.

Admiral Vostok
05-09-2004, 07:23 PM
Some questions about the airfields system:

1. Is there a limit to how far away the aircraft can fly?

2. Is there a limit to how long they can fly for?

3. What happens if an airfield is destroyed whilst aircraft are out on a mission?

Darth Windu
05-10-2004, 12:27 AM
Okay, well thanks for showing where i need more detail :)

Anyway,
1. Nope, they can fly as far as they want

2. Yes, for Bombers and Fighters anyway. For transports (eg Gunship, Imperial Lander) are always in the air unless they are loading/unloading. Fighters/Bombers would remain in the air for the same time (approx) as in C&C: Generals.

3. They would retern and land where the airfield used to be, or where you choose. However, they would not be able to take off again until a new airfield in built, at which point they will automatically go to those new facilities.

Admiral Vostok
05-10-2004, 02:07 PM
1. Good. Distance limitations was just another aspect of RoN that was crap that I hoped you didn't include.

2. Well I suppose that will do. I'd prefer them to not have a time limit, but I guess it will start getting weird if they're just hovering around doing nothing.

3. I like this idea rather than crashing like in Generals. But what happens if the airbase is destroyed while they're landed?

4. Can't remember if you addressed this, but how many fighters and bombers can each airbase support? Will it vary from civ to civ?

Darth Windu
05-11-2004, 04:13 AM
3. If that happens, the aircraft are destroyed as well, otherwise it would be somewhat tedious trying to destroy each aircraft, and it would also be extremely unrealistic.

4. Well, airbase's in my template are very flexible. Initially, you build the airbase which takes up four 'squares' and has a control tower, hanger (both for decoration) and two landing pad for two aircraft. BUT then you can add landing pads to the existing airbase, building around other structures or terrain problems such as rocks. Airbase's will therefore vary in both size and shape depending on how the player builds them. Also, when you build an 'extension' it is built as only a landing pad (no tor hanger) and becomes part of the exisiting structure (same health bar) and so lets you have more aircraft ladning space for less money. HOWEVER if the airbase is destroyed, the extensions are destroyed as well.

FroZticles
05-11-2004, 11:58 AM
First of all they are not airbase very unstarwarsy, space ports hangars, landing bay ect is better.

Why can't they take off if the hangar is destroyed? What is stopping them we have all seen fighters take off with no port I dont see how this matters. Destroying a hangar should just mean they lose there ability to use ships and bombers stop spawning bombs.

Admiral Vostok
05-11-2004, 12:00 PM
Hmm, quite interesting. To destroy the airfield does the enemy have to attack the control tower bit, or can they just attack a landing pad and it will destroy the whole airfield?

Darth Windu
05-12-2004, 07:39 AM
FroZ - they are airbase's, it doesnt matter what you want to call them, they are still airbase's.
Anyway, with the hanger bit it's because otherwise, what is the point of having airbase's? Aircraft also need to rearm and refuel before they can go out again, which is why the player cant order them to take off again, but they can still find their own way to an airbase.

Vostok - to destroy the airbase, the enemy can attack any part of it. Remember that when extra landing pads are built onto an exisiting airbase, they become part of the structure. This is one of the advantages and disadvantages players have to negotiate, deciding whether to expand their airbase's to build new ones.

FroZticles
05-12-2004, 09:53 AM
Thats where gameplay is taking over realism after each fighter/bomber run you think we should go back and refuel and rearm before going out again?

The point of hangers are to unlock the air tech tree and research air upgrades. SW ships are not limited to refuelling all the time and rearming there weapons like jets in reallife. It kind of makes it to much like RA2, where once you use your missiles you return to base. But if they don't return then we have the same problem where they are hovering in midair not doing anything.

How about if they are idle for lets say 10 seconds they return to the hanger or something but no refueling or rearming is needed just keep using them. The only exception would be bombers they would have to go back spawn new bombs then head out.

Darth Windu
05-13-2004, 07:11 AM
FroZ - you are thinking in SWGB1 terms. In my template, there really is no air tech tree.
As for aircraft returning, yes, i think they should return after every attack. We see in TPM (Naboo), AotC (Jedi Temple), ANH (Yavin), and RotJ (Home One) that aircraft use airbase's and their equivalents, and we also see in ANH the X-wing's being fuelled and readied for the attack. Furthermore, we can extrapolate that bombs have to be replaced after they are used, so therefore the logical conclusion is that aircraft should return to base to re-arm and re-fuel.

I also dont see how this is gameplay is taking over realism. It is realistic in that they need to be rearmed and refueled, and it is good for gameplay in that while powerful, aircraft can be destroyed on the ground and cannot be used constantly.

FroZticles
05-13-2004, 10:20 AM
They do refuel and rearm after an attack yes but not one strike and head home....

Naboo were fighting until the TF ship was destroyed you want them to return after one strike and thats it. AIR IS USED CONSTANTLY IN STAR WARS!!!! Gunships did not rearm or refuel in the whole Battle of Geonosis and made countless strikes at the Confed forces. I agree with rearming rockets but not basic lasers they should be used as much as they want, once rockets are all used they must return to the base to rearm them.

So in your template there is no aircraft research at all?

Admiral Vostok
05-13-2004, 12:48 PM
I'm with Froz on this one. There is no reason for fighters to return straight to base. Bombers should return after a bombing run to reload their bombs, but fighters should not. Perhaps after making an attack, the fighters will hang around the area flying in a holding pattern. As Froz said, if you don't tell them to do anything after a while (maybe as long as 30 seconds) they'll return to base just because they aren't doing anything. However if you keep giving them targets they can stay out there forever.

Darth Windu
05-14-2004, 02:15 AM
Well, with fighters that only use lasers (X-wing, A-wing, Jedi Starfighter etc) they would be able to stay out longer, but would still be subjected to the time limit placed on all aircraft. They could fire as much as they wanted, but would still have to return to base.

FroZ - sort of. In my template, players invest a percentage of their credits into Research, one of which is Military Research. This covers new units, upgrades etcso that ishow you would get things like the A-wing, Gunship etc - they wouldnt be available straight off.

FroZticles
05-14-2004, 07:37 AM
If invest in military research you start climbing the military tree? So troops and basic training would come first and you have no control on what comes next?

Admiral Vostok
05-14-2004, 11:02 AM
Yeah, the process sucks, but Windu likes Rise of Nations.

And I still think fighters should be able to stay out there forever. If they need to return for re-fuelling, why don't ground vehicles need to as well? As long as they are doing something, the fighters should not have a time limit, because none of the ground vehicles do.

Darth Windu
05-14-2004, 11:02 AM
Yes. This system is designed to allow the player to concentrate on other matters, such as producing units and fighting battles.
Although you lose control of which technology is researched, you do have control over how frequently you gain these new technologies, which depends on the amount of credits you invest (more credits = faster research)

So basically, at the start of a game, using the Empire as an example, you would only have access to Stormtroopers, possibly Rocket Troopers and Scount Troopers. Then, you will gradually gain access to AT-PT's, AT-ST's, TIE Fighters, TIE Bombers etc, and then finally the AT-AT. Then, the military research will shut down with no more funds devoted to it once everything is researched.

FroZticles
05-14-2004, 12:31 PM
I hate that idea it Vostoks saying it sucks is still giving it to much credit. I hate that idea and I'm glad my friend bought it and told me it sucked before I wasted my money on it.

Air should be able to stay out as long as you want it to. I think giving them a time limit is not realistic to SW and is not supporting gameplay either.

Admiral Vostok
05-15-2004, 12:48 AM
I agree completely with Froz. I think this is the first time such a thing has ever happened :p

Darth Windu
05-15-2004, 05:41 AM
FroZ - where did you get the idea that this is how RoN's research works because...it isnt. Apart from not being able to tell if a game is good or not without playing it, my research system is unique (as far as i can tell) in that ive never seen it in an RTS.
As i said, you simply invest in research, which is produced automatically. Better for gameplay, more realistic.

As for aircraft...no. As i've said, aircraft are powerful, but are vulnerable when on the ground and should not, and hence cant, be used constantly. With ground forces, it is a very different matter, but the fact is that aircraft cant keep flying all the time.

Admiral Vostok
05-15-2004, 11:30 AM
Windu - Your researching idea is remarkably similar to RoNs. The only difference is yours is done automatically while you have to manually perform RoNs. In that case, yours is even worse than RoNs because it requires even less thought to do.

As for Aircraft, you still haven't come up with why they can't be used constantly. They are powerful? So is the AT-AT. Does the AT-AT need to return to base at inopportune times to refuel? No. Neither should the X-Wing or TIE-Fighter or any other aircraft without a payload.

lukeiamyourdad
05-15-2004, 12:00 PM
Windu, your researching systems gives the player absolutely no control on what he wants to get. Let's say I want to get so heavy AA as fast as I can. Can I do it? Absolutely not because it has to go through 17 other researches before I can get there.
It's one of the most pathetic anti-rush system I've ever seen.

FroZticles
05-16-2004, 01:17 AM
Damn Luke you beat me :(

I would think it would encourage rushing since thats all you have until the mech research order comes in.

Darth Windu
05-16-2004, 03:25 AM
luke - you HAVE to remember that there is no such thing as Heavy AA in my template, you are thinking in SWGB1 terms.
My research system does give the player control over how quickly they tech up, and what they want to concentrate on. I was also thinking of adding a military subsection of Infantry, Mech and Aircraft.

Vostok - it is nothing like RoN. Apart from there being 5 different researches in RoN, these are done using the old, clunky system of clicking on the research when you have enough resources, and does not include various upgrades like better armour, which are done at different buildings.

Again, my system is designed to allow the player to concentrate more on getting their base set up, collecting resources, and battle - which is the whole point of buying the game!

lukeiamyourdad
05-16-2004, 05:29 PM
That's beside the point. It was only an example. Change Heavy AA into AT-AT if you want but it stays the same.
They cannot go from A to C by skipping B. They have to do everything in the exact same order every time.
Controlling how fast it goes isn't control at all.

This feels a lot like Civ where you have to research almost everything in order to advance. Except that you had more control in Civ then here since you can choose your researches.

Admiral Vostok
05-16-2004, 07:51 PM
Well dividing the Military thing up into Infantry, Mech and Aircraft is a start, but still not as good as the current GB system of "research stuff you want".

Darth Windu
05-17-2004, 12:21 AM
I still think this system is a lot better.

luke - but why would you have the AT-AT before, for example, the AT-PT? Bad for gameplay, poor realism. Besides, you shouldnt have access to your most powerful units as soon as you start the game.

vostok - well, i disagree with you, i think it is far superior to the SWGB, RoN, AoE etc system.

The system that i am using allows the player to concentrate more on battle and base-building, not worrying about going to each individual buiding to see if there are technologies to research. If that is the sort of game you want, go play SimCity.

My system allows player many options. For example, are you going to concentrate on more effecient resource collection (Economic), higher pop slots (Civic), better units (Military) or more units (none)? The different research fields, and the ability to devote percentage values to each gives many varied strategies to players. Economic booming, rushing, teching-up etc are all possible in many times the number of combinations available in the older games.

FroZticles
05-17-2004, 08:57 AM
Funny thing is Windu your the only one who thinks its superior....

They implement tech levels for that purpose of not having a AT-AT at the start. Luke is basing it on that fact this system is only covering your arse cause you have no tech levels.

lukeiamyourdad
05-17-2004, 11:20 AM
Exactly. That's also why they created tech trees.

I never said we should have access to the most powerful units at the start of the game. That's again, why they created tech trees. But with this, the tech tree becomes kind of useless. It's like a continuous tech level advance.

Rushing is impossible. There's almost no way you can rush here. Everyone has the same units since military research all goes the same.

I've been thinking about this. Although it is true that this allows people to turn away from advancement from buildings, it doesn't make the player concentrate on war.
See, since the speed of your researching comes with the amount of ressources you put in it, the smart player will go look for more ressources and concentrate on his economy so he can get more powerful units earlier then his opponent. Since this is also true in every other RTS, I think here people will concentrate a LOT on economy.

Admiral Vostok
05-17-2004, 01:28 PM
I agree with Luke's Dad. The economy side of things requires just as much attention in your plan as it does in other games, but is made a whole lot more restrictive and even boring.

And If you've played SimCity, you'd know it is actually more like your game, where you don't click on individual buildings but you put funds into different areas as a whole.

Darth Windu
05-18-2004, 04:37 AM
FroZ - so then why are you objecting to my research concept when the effect is the same?

Luke - its a tech tree managed differently. Also, rushing would be possible. In term of research, you can but 90% of your credits into research, or 0%. If you want to rush, you just put a small amount in economic, or use all of your credits building a force straight off - your opponent wont have the same number of more powerful units to stop you.
Economically - not true. The smart player would have their worker's mining resources, and would be putting a lot of credits into Economic research while building spaceports to supplement the resources they collect.

Vostok - so the economy requires as much attention but micromanagement of research is significantly reduced? Good, that is what i was aiming for.

FroZticles
05-18-2004, 07:44 AM
I object because people want control over what they research and build. If someone wants to go fast air they can't without all the other research before it gets there.

lukeiamyourdad
05-18-2004, 05:30 PM
Then what's the point in even putting anything in economic research?! People will just pump out units as fast as they can so they can slaughter the "econ" player.
That's ridiculous...

So now your game has a huge focus on economy. You have to build up all the time to get more ressources. That doesn't reduce micro.

Microing everything is almost everything in any RTS. You can reduce it but when it's too low and we don't even see a point in having an economy it turns into an RTT(real-time tactical game I think).
But yours is just like a bad attempt at an RTT while trying to push in some RTS elements. The two don't mix well.

Admiral Vostok
05-18-2004, 07:13 PM
Windu, I never said micromanagement would be reduced. I said the tech side of things becomes boring whereas before it required some thought.

And as Luke's Dad says, what's the point of putting any money into econ when you can pump out a force faster without doing so? That's just rediculous.

Darth Windu
05-19-2004, 07:52 AM
FroZ - but they do determine exactly how much is put into research, and which research to put that into. This system is superior to the old system in every way, except that the player cannot choose which individual technology will be researched.

luke - no. Using Economic research will generate more credits at spaceports, will make resources worth more, and will allow worker units to carry more resources. Hence, if you are econ booming, and you can hold off a rush, you should be able to crush your opponent - much like it is now.

Vostok - it would require thought. You have to decide what percentage of your money should go on research. Then, you need to decide what technology field you want to concentrate on, then you need to manage the rest of your funds by building structures, units etc.

FroZticles
05-19-2004, 11:38 AM
I still don't see how it is superior to the "older" research you still have not proven it. Your have proven the complete opposite....

Admiral Vostok
05-19-2004, 12:24 PM
Okay, let me get this right:

Joe puts 90% into Econ. His workers carry more, his spaceports generate credits, he gets more cash flow in general.

Fred puts 90% into Military. He gets access to units quickly so he can mount a rush.

Fred mounts a huge attack on Joe using the units he was able to get quickly because he spent big on Military. Joe fights him off with... his ability to carry more resources?

Personally my money is on Fred.

saberhagen
05-19-2004, 05:19 PM
No, it will lead to people commanding big armies in epic battles. Pay attention. ;)

Darth Windu
05-20-2004, 07:08 AM
Vostok - no.
Because Joe is putting so much into Econ, he would be generating a lot more metal and credits than Fred, and with these extra credits would be able to build a defensive force.

Fred, on the other hand, would have access to more powerful units, but would have far less resources to use in constructing those units. A better rush tactic would be to dispense with research altogether and just build units, although that would really stuff you if the attack failed.

Admiral Vostok
05-20-2004, 10:25 AM
But surely, because Joe hasn't researched any Military, his "defensive" force would be unable to defend successfully against Fred's more advanced force.

How can the best way to rush be to research nothing? I want to rush to get aircraft... so I research nothing?

Darth Windu
05-21-2004, 12:16 AM
That all depends on how many units Joe has built, and what base defensive structures he has.

As for rushing, why would you want to rush with aircraft? Beside that being odd, with my system of building airbase's that would probably be difficult anyway.
With what i said about the best rushing, that would be best because then all of your resources would go into unit production, rather than more powerful units.

Admiral Vostok
05-21-2004, 12:42 AM
Why would I want to rush with Aircraft? Because in every single game that features Aircraft it's a good tactic to rush to get Aircraft before your opponent has anti-air defense. Your research method doesn't allow for decent rushing, which is a valid and time-honoured tactic.

Your game makes less sense the more you explain it, Windu.

FroZticles
05-21-2004, 04:50 AM
Windu would not care if people were paralyzed from rushing in the first place. His ideas support nothing but booming, next idea will be a terrain boundary where the enemy can't pass until an hour is up........

Darth Windu
05-21-2004, 10:59 AM
Vostok - but then Anti-Air defences and units are also part of military research. I should also point out that the Rocket Trooper counts as anti-air, so there would be very little chance of rushing with air the way you have explained it if we were using traditional researching.

FroZ - not true. If people want to rush, they can rush. As for boundries, i do have them, but all they define is where a player can build structures and mine resources.


On a side note, what does everyone think of my change to the Imperial Starfleet Uplink?

FroZticles
05-21-2004, 12:06 PM
The whole point of fast air Windu is to kill as many workers as possible before the guy can get any rocket troopers or any aa out. "Traditional researching" is more possible to hit fast air than this system you have because people know which direction they are flowing and know the building blocks to hit that strat.

Darth Windu
05-22-2004, 06:48 AM
FroZ - GOSH! SHOCK!! HORROR!!!

You might have to change the strategies you have been using for x amount of games. You do realise that NEW and ORIGINAL ideas are what keeps genre's and games fresh and interesting, dont you?

Regardless, you still didnt comment on my change to the Starfleet Uplink.

Also, i have added 'Movement Autonomy', 'Weapons Autonomy' and 'Orders' to my template which i think are quite nice.

FroZticles
05-22-2004, 11:18 AM
Well if they impliment new systems with every game as you put it how can I use the same strategy with all the RTS I supposedly play. Plus original ideas (don't go hurting yourself Windu mentioning that word) are not just a bunch of games you played for the last x amount of months and just changed unit names and added them together......

Admiral Vostok
05-22-2004, 12:51 PM
The only "original" part of your research idea, Windu, is that you invest money in it rather than click it every time you want to go to the next level. Sure, it's a little more realistic, but it is dumbing-down RoN's idea. It requires absolutely no thinking. Most people will invest all their stuff evenly and not have to concern themselves with research for the rest of the game.

As for your other ideas:
I really don't like the new Starfleet Uplink. It gives you access to the Recon TIE, which I assume you made up and which violates Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units and Star-Warsy-ness.

I quite like your Orders idea, but as for Movement Autonomy and Weapons Autonomy I think the traditional Aggressive/Defensive/Hold Ground Stances do this better. They at least make more sense than red/yellow/green.

Darth Windu
05-23-2004, 01:33 AM
FroZ - they HAVENT been implimenting new systems, thats the point

Vostok - why are you so obsessed with my research being similar to RoN - it isnt, get over it.

As for the Starfleet Uplink, i changed that because, quite simply, i thought it over-powered the Empire, and i dont like Superweapons. As for the Recon TIE Fighter, all it is is a TIE that reveals an area instead of shooting - not a big leap. I should also point out that you have non-canon units, such as the V-19, in your template.

As for the Movement/Weapons autonomy, the reason they are colour-coded is so people know exactly which is which in a hurry, thats all.

saberhagen
05-23-2004, 07:50 AM
But when you know the controls of an RTS and are in a hurry you don't look. You use hotkeys as much as possible and even when you have to click a button with a mouse, you often do it instinctively because you just know the position of the button.

Admiral Vostok
05-23-2004, 06:24 PM
Who are you trying to convince that your system is totally dissimilar to RoNs? It isn't, get over it.

And while I do have non-canon units in my template, they all follow my Laws. Obviously you can't have a decent RTS without some non-canon units. Here's my Laws again to refresh your memory:

Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units and Star-Warsy-ness

1. It shall not replace or at least do-as-well-as a canon unit at a given task.

2. It is possible for it to exist as we did not see a type of warfare it excels at in the movies.

3. It shall not have some amazing ability that just about every army would have if they existed.

The Recon TIE violates Law Number 2. If Recon TIEs existed, they would have been sent into the asteroid field to search for the Millennium Falcon in The Empire Strikes Back.

FroZticles
05-24-2004, 12:27 PM
*cough* RA2 Soviet Spy Plane *cough*

Darth Windu
05-25-2004, 12:03 AM
Hardly Vostok. The Empire was hunting to kill/disable her, and since the Recon TIE doesnt carry any weapons, it would've been useless in that task, especially considering that there was SD's there.
I should also point out that the Republic's V-19 violates that rule as well, if the Clones had a fighter they would've used it on Geonosis to cover the Gunships.

saber - then novice players have it a little easier, and it doesnt affact veterns - so its a good system then.


Anyway, i have updated my template on the website. I have now merged the Rebel Commando and Sniper, and given the Rebel's the Power Droid which could come in very handy. I'd also like to know if people think the Rebel Commando should capture or blow up buildings, and how capturing buidlings should work, if it is included at all.
I also changed my research to be divided into three section (Military) and two sections (Economic and Civic)
Oh yeah, i also included in-text links to make everything easier to find.

Admiral Vostok
05-25-2004, 12:56 AM
It's true the Empire needed something with weapons, but to me it would make sense to send in a ship that has advanced sensors and better manouverability to actually find the Falcon, then send in the armed ships. This would result in less losses from the asteroid field. When the Falcon was hidden, we see TIE Bombers flying over dropping bombs. They were trying to find the Falcon by flushing her out, they weren't actually thinking the bombs would kill anything. A Recon TIE would obviously be much better at this task.

As for the V-19, it doesn't contradict anything. First of all, the Battle of Geonosis was the first conflict involving the Clones, so it's possible the V-19 wasn't in use yet, but more importantly fighters like this are not used for ground support in Star Wars. If they were, we would have seen TIE Fighters on Hoth, Droid Starfighters on Naboo and Geonosian Fighter in support of the Separatist army on Geonosis.

Or are you suggesting the Republic Army just relies on Jedi Starfighters for space combat?

As for the Rebel Commando, they should blow up buildings, not capture them, because this is what we see them do in Return of the Jedi.

Darth Windu
05-25-2004, 09:26 AM
With the TIE Recon, it does however fall under what i call 'Extrapolated EU'. Basically, this is EU that follows logic, such as the V-19 Clone Fighter. Why i say the TIE Recon falls under this is that the Empire would want a way to find rebel installations without putting their SD's, Bombers etc in danger, hence the TIE Recon. I should also point out that a huge amount of aircraft in the real world, from WW1 to the present day, were converted from Fighters to Recon birds by simply replacing their weapons with photo equipment. If it helps at all, just think of them as standard TIE fighters that dont shoot.

As for the V-19 i didnt say it contradicts anything. Besides, you saying 'it might not have been in service at Geonosis' could just as easily changed to 'the TIE Recon wasnt in service until after Hoth' like the TIE Interceptor.

With the Rebel Commando, i might change that, but then that brings up the question of should buildings be capturable, and if so, how?

lukeiamyourdad
05-25-2004, 12:55 PM
You do realize that they can easily use probe droids?

Darth Windu
05-26-2004, 08:05 AM
I realise that, but then you have to build (and hence pay for) probot's, which also take up pop slots. The TIE Recon's dont cost anything and dont take up pop slots, so they are more economical.

Admiral Vostok
05-26-2004, 11:02 PM
Ah yes, the Probe Droid. Hence the Recon TIE would violate rule number 1.

1. It shall not replace or at least do-as-well-as a canon unit at a given task.

Why not just replace the Recon TIEs with Probe Droids, and make Probe Droids otherwise unbuildable?

Darth Windu
05-27-2004, 06:10 AM
No, they do a different job. TIE Recon's can go where probe droids cannot, and i should point out that while the TIE Recon's dont cost the player anything, they also only give occasional recon.

FroZticles
05-27-2004, 07:23 AM
Seems kind of forced............

saberhagen
05-27-2004, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
TIE Recon's can go where probe droids cannot

Like where?

Darth Windu
05-27-2004, 10:31 AM
...anywhere. An example of course being that Probot's cannot climb cliffs. With my change to the Starfleet Uplink though, if anyone has a better idea, im open to suggestions.

I should also point out that i have updated my template, which is now available at my site. I have added a section explaining the different sorts of blasters, added 'Automated Light Blasters', formations etc.

Also, i've just started work on a template for a Space-based SW RTS, i only started it today, but i've already outlined the different fleets, and now getting onto what each ship does.

BTW what does everyone think of the modified Republic Cruiser below as a unit for the Republic Fleet? I figured they needed a light cruiser, so i modified one of models to suit it. (it's at the bottom of the page)

Republic Cruiser (http://www.geocities.com/icur_mmm/MMM.html)

saberhagen
05-28-2004, 08:31 AM
Probots can ****ing fly! In JO they seemed to be able to go anywhere and could be seen a long way off the ground.

lukeiamyourdad
05-28-2004, 07:32 PM
Yes Windu...they send probots for recon on planets...without cliffs only...

Darth Windu
05-28-2004, 10:35 PM
Well actually Probots in my template are hovercraft rather than flying units, but still it doesnt matter anyway because i've changed it. The Starfleet Uplink now gives access to a TIE Bomber strike instead of the TIE Recon flight. My most recent update also includes

- new experience system for Confederacy
- inclusion of Naboo Coalition civ
- Imperial Uplink gives TIE Bomber strike
- Outpost now Imperial Unique Building
- specified World bonuses for CtG
- new Imperial Mech Commander unit
- Clone Sniper replaced with Clone Ion Grenadier

Admiral Vostok
06-06-2004, 04:00 PM
The link in your sig doesn't seem to work, Windu...

I am glad you realised how silly the Recon TIEs were and got rid of them.

Darth Windu
06-07-2004, 01:10 AM
Vostok - thats odd, i just checked the link myself and it works fine. Otherwise, just go to www.geocities.com/icur_mmm (http://www.geocities.com/icur_mmm) and follow the links.

I should also have a new version up soon which includes some of the heroes you meet on your travels in the game.

Admiral Vostok
06-07-2004, 10:59 AM
Okay, it's working now, maybe Geocities was down before.

This revision is not too bad. I quite like the Naboo's training center.

I can't seem to find any info on the new experience system for the Confederacy, where is this detailed?

I don't particularly like the fact that Vader is strong vs Rebel infantry and Kenobi is strong vs Confederacy infantry. That makes them too powerful against a specific opponent, and not as effective against other opponents.

Darth Windu
06-08-2004, 12:13 AM
Vostok - the thing about the Confed experience is in the 'Unit Upgrades' section. I have added '/Experience' to the menu now to make it easier.

Also, with Kenobi and Vader, they are actually good against any infantry, i only put down 'rebel' and 'confederacy' because those are the factions Vader and Kenobi fight against in the campaigns.