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View Full Version : Troop wars or just another mech whore?


FroZticles
04-08-2004, 03:36 AM
In SWGB all people really did was mech whore I've done it and every player can say they have and if they say they haven't they are lying.

Would you rather the main unit in the next RTS to be a trooper or mechs?

How would they implement this make a limit on them? Make them really expensive? Push them to later tech levels so players have to rely on troops all through early and mid game?

Lets hear some ideas.

lukeiamyourdad
04-08-2004, 04:51 AM
I don't know how this can be done but the best thing to do is a combination of both.

I'm unsure about trooper wars. We did see a lot of them in SWGB but we also saw mech whoring and anything whoring...

Darth Windu
04-08-2004, 05:42 AM
I think they should be as important as each other. In modern military combat (yes, i do realise it's different from Star Wars but hear me out) armour is really great, but vulnerable to anti-armour infantry, and so you have infantry and armour working together.

For the game, to make infantry 'better', you can build, you example, 8 Stormtroopers for every 1 AT-AT, and you're enemy will see the AT-AT further away due to it's size. Infantry are also really cheap and built quickly compared to mechs, and also in my template the Rebellion doesnt have any mechs.

saberhagen
04-08-2004, 07:19 PM
In RL the thing that really makes armour/infantry combinations essential is terrain: tanks tend to have trouble in woods, built up areas, etc so they need infantry to go in and clear them out. In SWGB terrain didn't have that kind of influence on tactics, as woods were impassable to all units and the garrisoning of buildings was quite rudimentary. Maybe a new engine could give terrain a more realistic influence on combat, but it would probably be difficult to implement amd also more complicated to play.

Admiral Vostok
04-08-2004, 11:29 PM
I totally agree that troopers need to be made more attractive as an element of the army. Particularly with civs like the Trade Federation, whose troops were particularly weak, there really was no reason to buy them once you got out of the early tech levels.

C&C Generals made infantry more attractive by giving them abilities like capturing enemy buildings and garrissoning civilian buildings that vehicles can't do - however infantry still play a rather small role. RoN (and I do hesitate to bring it up, but I'm making a point) made it so you couldn't capture enemy cities without infantry - something that is crucial to winning the game. So I think the thing to do is give infantry in SWGB2 something they can do that Mechs can't.

Also perhaps as saberhagen suggested terrain should be a consideration. Perhaps woods and rock formations and other things could be impassable to Mechs, but infantry can walk right through them (at a slower speed). However this may give too much advantage to Air civs over Mech civs.

Perhaps infantry could be produced in groups rather than one at a time. I don't mean that they perform in little groups like infantry in RoN, but that when you click on the button to build Stormtroopers, five are built instead of one, but they are still independently controllable. This would let you build big trooper contingents quickly.

Or perhaps there are ways to get free infantry. For example you could have a building that every few minutes gives you free basic troopers. If units are free people will probably use them.

Sithmaster_821
04-08-2004, 11:58 PM
I dunno what game you guys are playing, but troopers play a BIG part in this game. T2 is just trooper wars, and, if they do go for the fast t3 and strike rush, play defensively w/ mounties and grenadiers and follow them into t3 for mech destroyers/air. Personally I think that troopers and mechs are about equal w/ troopers more popular early and mechs later.

Darth Windu
04-09-2004, 02:29 AM
In terms of troopers, i was also thinking of adding-
- only troopers can capture cities
- troopers can walk through forests, mechs cannot

Maybe, in addition to the 'pop slot' idea and price/building time, infantry will be more attractive.

pbguy1211
04-09-2004, 02:33 AM
OMG... I hardly ever use mechs. Done properly, I don't even need a mech center. You'd be surprised how strong a mounted trooper in T2 is and how effective they are vs. Mechs. You can mass some mounties in t2 and take down an enemy who rushed to T3 very easily.


[edit] though I'll generally put a few MD's by my carbon guys while a few rooks try to strike rush me.

Darth Windu
04-09-2004, 02:43 AM
and a group of Assault Mechs will wipe out your troopers without a problem

lukeiamyourdad
04-09-2004, 02:45 AM
Not while everyone is in T3...

We are talking about the role of troopers in later games. In early games, it is natural to be relying on Troopers.

In the longer games you can encounter, the role of the infantry goes down.

pbguy1211
04-09-2004, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
and a group of Assault Mechs will wipe out your troopers without a problem

A: I'm not waiting until t4 to mount an attack on ANYONE.

B. In an RM games, no one... and I mean NO ONE will ever be able to mass enough assault mechs vs me to wipe out all my troops.

C. If they do have assaults, since I almost always use the rebels, at T4 I've always got a few air speeders (not to mention jedi later on) ready for defensive purposes. So your assaults are meaningless.

lukeiamyourdad
04-09-2004, 03:13 AM
Besides, with a good number of mounties, assaults are kind of useless. They just have to close-in and then it's over.

pbguy1211
04-09-2004, 03:20 AM
especially if it isnt a heavy assault mech.

Darth Windu
04-09-2004, 04:05 AM
which of course means absolutely nothing because (we hope) no-one would be stupid enough to send out Assault Mechs without any escorts, but because SWGB2 wont (again, we hope) be a carbon-copy of SWGB.

FroZticles
04-09-2004, 08:07 AM
Guys have you played an inter+ game (this going to online gamers). If your a pocket you fast t3 if your wing you rush or in some cases wall off turrent up and fast 3. All of those people who manage to get away with it mass mechs. Ive vs Drunk, girl and all the others and it is how it goes. Rushers do build troops since they have there tcs already up but most of the time people do not bother.

If I was t3 a mountie wouldnt get a burn on me. Air conquers it and that food and nova on the 20 something mounties u could have used on teching and becoming as powerful as your enemy.

Once t2 is over goodbye troops the mech whorers have there factories up and the troop centers are left abandoned.

lukeiamyourdad
04-09-2004, 04:23 PM
OK I'm lost. What were you trying to say:confused:

MasterN64
04-09-2004, 04:51 PM
I'll get out the translator!
(Types in message)
$%$&*9(4#
(breaks)

So much for that. But I think he means that troopers can have their advantages over some units, such as assault mechs vs. mounted troopers, etc. But thats me best guess.

Admiral Vostok
04-09-2004, 05:32 PM
Yes, mounted troopers and grenadiers have their purposes, but if a future Star Wars RTS was to more closely follow the movies, these units would not exist in their current forms.

I'm talking about actual Laser Troopers, which are supposed to be the most numerous units in the game. As soon as people get access to Strike Mechs, many people don't bother with Laser Troopers.

Once they are Repeater Troopers they are very useful, but again these are not your basic Laser Troopers. Take the Trade Federation for example. In the movies, they had hundreds and hundreds of Battle Droids. In SWGB, as soon as you can build Droidekas and STAPs there really is no point wasting your money on the crappest of crap troops.

So while in the current game Mounties and Grenadiers are useful troops, lets focus on making Laser Troopers more attractive, because they just aren't once you hit T3.

FroZticles
04-09-2004, 05:38 PM
Well noone really buys droidekas they are a waste of nova since they only counter troops and kill workers but so many things do that also.

saberhagen
04-09-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Perhaps infantry could be produced in groups rather than one at a time. I don't mean that they perform in little groups like infantry in RoN, but that when you click on the button to build Stormtroopers, five are built instead of one, but they are still independently controllable. This would let you build big trooper contingents quickly.

You should try holding down shift. ;)

FroZticles
04-10-2004, 03:38 AM
lol vostok as I say to the noobies I train.

LEARN YOUR HOTKEYS!!!!!

Admiral Vostok
04-11-2004, 10:37 PM
Thanks fellas, I do use the shift key. I don't mean queue up several at a time, I mean produce several at a time. Even queued up, they still pop out one at a time.

If you think about it popping out one at a time is pretty unrealistic, because infantry are trained in squads, not on an individual basis.

lukeiamyourdad
04-12-2004, 03:01 AM
Which is why there is the famous Gameplay>Realism phrase :D

Hmm that doesn't really apply here...

Nevertheless, does it really matter? It's nothing major.

FroZticles
04-12-2004, 05:52 AM
Well you can always build 5 troop centers than they come out 5 at a time :D

saberhagen
04-12-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
If you think about it popping out one at a time is pretty unrealistic, because infantry are trained in squads, not on an individual basis.

It depends on how many troopers one trooper on screen is meant to represent. In tabletop wargames there was always a figure ratio, so one figure actually represented more than one, so you didn't have to buy thousands of them. I suspect that sort of thing has influenced computer RTS games although it's never explicitly mentioned. When you think about it, 250 is hardly a large army, but that limit was forced by the limitations of computers.

FroZticles
04-12-2004, 04:56 PM
It was more the limitation of the engine they were using.

Admiral Vostok
04-13-2004, 03:04 PM
I know what you mean by tabletop representations, but still I think with engines shaping up to what they are nowadays, it really would be better to have a whole heap of troops rather than a handful.

Sithmaster_821
04-17-2004, 01:13 PM
Vostok I prefer the gme the way it is now. You see, when troops are made one at a time, you get atleast something out a lot quicker. Im not waiting five times the time just to get something that shoots.

FroZ, in fact I usually play inter+ games, or I did, and I know pbguy does too. I almost never built mechs. Late game, I used mostly 'peaters and air and maybe some mounties. Yes mechs are a viable option, but sticking with troopers is much better with certain civs (like rebs and wooks). I think it mostly involves playstyle.

Admiral Vostok
04-18-2004, 04:29 AM
I think it mostly involves what civ you are. Does anyone use Battle Droids late game?

lukeiamyourdad
04-18-2004, 03:23 PM
You mean the Trade Fed's Battle Droids?

No, unless I'm really desperate.

Admiral Vostok
04-18-2004, 11:11 PM
Exactly. There should be something attractive about using Battle Droids or else people won't use them.

Sithmaster_821
04-18-2004, 11:24 PM
I use them as cheap fodder units, just pump 'em onto the battlefield (you'll have the recs late game), and let them take hits for your mechs

lukeiamyourdad
04-19-2004, 02:01 AM
They just don't last long enough to be worthy canon fodder. I prefer to save up for a few more strikes or MDs.

Compa_Mighty
04-26-2004, 08:25 PM
Making clear I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if I repeat someone else's ideas.

As Windu says, not all civs should have "mechs". Even more, the "mech" class should not exist at all.

I think we all want a game where all factions are radically different from each other (a la Starcraft) to capture their unique Star Wars feel.

So, for example Rebels have exceptinally good pilots and the Empire doesn't (Vader doesn't count).

Empire has walkers, and the Rebels have nothing equivalent to that.

Maybe Rebels should be faster soldiers to hit and run. I don't know. I really hope the next game is more accurate to the movies. I loved SWGB but sequels have to be step further, don't you think?