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Xippion
04-14-2004, 08:43 AM
Well I've finally figured out what the secret of monkey island is. I've based it on Ron's comments to the theory that "this isn't really real" in relation to the grog-machines and other out-of-place objects, and also to his comments about the ending of MI2 and that he didn't think people would pay much attention to it. I tend to think of them (the out of place objects) as clues rather than the secret itself. The people who came up with that theory wrongly assumed the secret was about the entire game - rather it is a secret about exclusively monkey island.

All the clues to figuring it out can be found in the first game alone. The second game does not explicitly state it, and so you cannot figure it out just by playing MI2 - after all Monkey Island does not appear in it - ever wondered why not? Out of all the islands the only island to be in both MI1 and MI2 is Melee.

I'm confident that I do now know the true original intended meaning of the secret of monkey island. This is exciting, and it has me refreshed in my plans to build an MI3 fangame - one that reveals the secret, one that is new and taken from a fresh perspective. I've worked out how the beginning works to "explain" the ending of MI2, keeping true to Ron's idea that it isn't important.

Therefore I propose to assemble a team to build the game. I will require a background artist, character/sprite animation/design, and someone to write the music. No one may do more than one of these things. If interested email voigt_Xkampff@msn.com (remove the X from the email address).

QueZTone
04-14-2004, 09:40 AM
haven't you heard? the theory as stated in the Revelation article on the scummbar has been confirmed by fellow collegeas of Ron..

by Bill Tiller
Well this is all I know, and I learned it from Larry Ahern and Dave Grossman. [..] The explanation I heard is that Guybrush was lost in the Pirates Ride at Big Whoop Amusement Park the whole time, imagining the whole adventure. Then Chucky, his mean older brother goes and pulls him back to reality. The end. And that magical lightning coming out of Chucky's eyes and Elaine waiting by the hole on Dinky Island (which sounds a lot like Disney Land) was put there just in case there was to be a Monkey Island 3. The secret is that the MI world is not real.

Xippion
04-14-2004, 11:17 AM
Gilbert himself said that he would have made an MI3 and he didn't think people would take the end of MI2 seriously. I've corresponded with Bill Tiller through email in the past, so I know he doesn't actually know what the secret is. Bill never worked with Ron. Ron also stated directly to this theory that it is close but not it.

The secret is about Monkey Island, not "BIG WHOOP". I believe Big Whoop is just that - not important. If anything Big Whoop is the illusion, not the "reality of Guybrush's life". It's all pretty obvious now.

--edit--

Remember, Ron said the secret to monkey island can be pieced together exclusively from the evidence in MI1. MI2 may (or may not) support it, but it doesn't contain the secret in its entirety - in other words you can't just look at MI2 and figure out the secret, but you CAN with MI1 - and therefore that blows the theory right out of the water. But when you think about Monkey Island - Herman, The Vegetarian Cannibals, The Giant-Monkey-Head, the idols, the underground lair, etc you can begin to see a picture of what the secret really is.

Rapp Scallion
04-14-2004, 12:22 PM
I'm sorry, but I do not clearly see how the things in MI1 and MI2 can show the secret of Monkey Island. Could you please PM me your version of the secret and the evidences for your version to me? Or maybe post it here. I'm starting to get curious, because I feel somehow that you are right about your theory. If I only could understand it...:)

But that thing about Big Whoop; if Big Whoop it the illution... Maybe it's the reality. Remember what the voodoo lady said. Something about Big Whoop being beautiful and horrible.
Well, it can be great to come back to reality and meet your parents on a beautiful sunny day where everything is perfect and everything is great! Or the horrible thing: The illution is so great that you don't want to go back to the real world!

I don't know...

-Rapp Scallion

Drigo Zoxx
04-14-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by QueZTone
Guybrush was lost in the Pirates Ride at Big Whoop Amusement Park the whole time, imagining the whole adventure. Then Chucky, his mean older brother goes and pulls him back to reality.


For the first time in my life, I feel like saying some though about the Secret of Monkey Island with my own brain. :D

Have you ever noticed that the final scene takes place in a location which looks just like the docks from Booty Island? Since the first time I saw that I've been asking myself WHY they did use the same background for both places instead than drawing a new one.
If that statement from Bill Tiller is true, then the answer is simple: It was Guybrush's mind who imagined the Booty dock, and therefore his fantasy made it look like a REAL place that he ACTUALLY saw in the real world. ;)

About the Big Whoop, everyone in the story says it's illusion so probably it's the reality... just like Guybrush's parents in the real life would say that Monkey Island is an illusion, that is. :)

Xippion
04-14-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Drigo Zoxx
If that statement from Bill Tiller is true, then the answer is simple: It was Guybrush's mind who imagined the Booty dock, and therefore his fantasy made it look like a REAL place that he ACTUALLY saw in the real world. ;)

About the Big Whoop, everyone in the story says it's illusion so probably it's the reality... just like Guybrush's parents in the real life would say that Monkey Island is an illusion, that is. :) Again, I urge you to look at the original game. Discount MI2 from your memory. Then look exclusively at Monkey Island, the secret is about MONKEY ISLAND - not about Guybrush - and not about the entire game or games. Guybrush and Monkey Island have all but nothing in common.

Rapp, there's no climatic feeling of satisfaction to just tell you the secret here and now, I'd much rather express it artistically. You have, of course, every right to share your own ideas about what the secret is - and swayed by the right argument I might be inclined to agree with it - but as it stands I do believe I have found the answer to the 14-year-old strong question what is the secret of monkey island?

If you're so wondering how MI3 would start, I'd do it exactly the way I believe Ron would. Go back to the opening scene we see in MI2 of Guybrush hanging next to Elaine. The entire theme of MI2 was literally "Big Whoop" so why not? Guybrush got carried away with his story and continued on from where he currently was even though he's still hanging with the chest.

It has a satisfying irony of delightful humour to it to say to the gamer you've gone nowhere since the beginning of MI2!

MrManager
04-14-2004, 02:36 PM
Bill is quoting Dave Grossman (writer on the first two games) and Larry Ahern (artist on MI2). Tim Schafer has also confirmed (indirectly through Jake somewhere) that the kid thing is the secret.

But yeah, I have a feeling you'll argue your point until your face is blue, so I'll just let you get on with it. ::

QueZTone
04-14-2004, 02:46 PM
thanks remi

sometimes i just can't take it anymore :~

Xippion
04-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by QueZTone
thanks remi

sometimes i just can't take it anymore :~ You quoted forth-hand-information as being fact. The fact remains that none of Tim, Larry or Dave actually know what the secret is. They've answered the question to the best of their abilities because Ron wouldn't. If you personally asked Ron if the "kid thing" is the secret would he say yes?

No, it is based solely on MI2. How can you figure out that they're a bunch 'o kids in an amusement park by playing only MI1? Giant monkey heads and vegetarian cannibals give you that impression? Yeah all the tunnels in MI2 *might* give you that idea, however how is it the secret of *Monkey Island*?

Thrik
04-14-2004, 03:43 PM
Maybe all the electric lighting, grog machines, and various key quotes which blatantly hint at it?

Drigo Zoxx
04-14-2004, 04:48 PM
I also believe that Xippion is right, the 'kids secret' is just the explaination of the second game ending, while Ron has never clearly refered to it as the secret of Monkey Island. Also recently he said that one day he'd like to do a game which explains it all. But i'd be nonsense to just explain the story of the kids, which could already ba understand from the ending of Monkey Island 2, using a bit of imagination.

Anyways, be it the secret of the game or not, it's interesting to see how the elements of Monkey Island (the isle itself) are unusual and are also left behind any explaination in the game; the Cannibals, the Giant Monkey, the cave full of human skeletons and such--- just casual or what?

Joshi
04-14-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Xippion
Out of all the islands the only island to be in both MI1 and MI2 is Melee.


Just asking, the basis of your secret isn't based on this line here is it, because melee island isn't actually in MI2.

But anyway, I have to ask, do you really think that in making the game Ron had this idea that in 14 year time there would still be people debating what the secret was. Let's look at things retrospectively, The secret of Monkey Island was a benchmark in game making because it dramatically decreased the verbs on the new scumm interface thay had made for Maniac mansion. Therefroe, we could basically call monkey island a test for a new type of gameplay. Now yes, it had brilliant gameplay and a killer story, but I'm guessing that while trying to make money and test this new method they still wanted to make a good story. Fine. But I doubt he had any kind of philosophical or exsostential idea in mind. He probably just wanted to tell a story about a young man who wanted to become a pirate. if you forget the whole secret and guybrush being a boy thing, you can see that there is still a pretty good detailed story there, and most of us loved it as it was. There was really no need to add anything to it that would confuse people or make them think beyond the game (especially since a great deal of gameplay is required without you thinking of things like 'is there any symbolic referance to Guybrush getting blown out of a cannon?')

Therefore, if there actually was a secret, don't you think we'd have found it out by the end of MI1 if indeed the secret had nothing to do with MI2 (which i might add they started production on straight after, or maybe even before the release of MI1).

My guess is that either, Guybrush is just a small boy travelling in his own imagination, or by the end of production, none of the team noticed that they had never even touched upon a secret about monkey island and therefore never put one in and decided to mess with peoples head in MI2. I wouldn't rule out the second one there by the way.

peace
Neil
;)

SecMan
04-14-2004, 05:19 PM
Well here's the man himself's comments on it:

<Flirbnic> There are a lot of theories about what the Secret of Monkey Island is...

<Flirbnic> One of them is that there are portals everywhere

<Flirbnic> eg. when guybrush falls down the hole on Dinky Island, he goes through a portal to the hallway world

<Flirbnic> and after Guybrush takes off LeChuck's mask, they go through a portal to the carnival world, where the grog machine came from

<Flirbnic> then there is my theory that the secret is the location of Monkey Island

<Flirbnic> And there is another theory that it's all just a dream that a little boy (Guybrush) was having while in a ride similar to the Pirates of the Caribbean thing...

<Flirbnic> Which of these is closest to the Secret of Monkey Island?

<Ron-G> Cold, cold and cold.

<Ron-G> One is closer than the others...but not much.

<Flirbnic> Which one?

<Ron-G> the other one.


Make of that as you will.

MrManager
04-14-2004, 05:52 PM
I'm seriously thinking of removing that transcript as it's so misleading. Remember that this comes from the man who claimed that MI always was meant to be a trilogy. That's a direct contradiction of earlier quotes where he said it was only supposed to be one game and that it was supposed to end the same way as MI2 did.

As for not believing Tim and Dave, they wrote the majority of the two first games, so I tend to believe they know what they're talking about.

Anyway, my last contribution to this thread - believe what you want, but the original ending and secret is that Guybrush was a kid. ;-*

MrManager
04-14-2004, 06:06 PM
Actually, one more thing!

Also worth reading is this - http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92003&highlight=Tim%20Schafer - which explains everything if you read it all and follow all the links.

Scummbuddy
04-14-2004, 07:41 PM
didn't I read somewhere that Ron said he wanted to call it "The Secret of" was that it sounded good and would probably be better for sales?

daltysmilth
04-14-2004, 07:43 PM
Xippion, are you wanting to put voices in this proposed fangame? I'd volunteer my voice if you are.

daltysmilth
04-14-2004, 07:48 PM
A couple of other things. First, Xippion, does the line where Guybrush asks "Do you ever think we're all just characters in a novel?" have anything to do with the secret, or is that just a red herring? Also, I seem to recall Ron saying in a chat that Monkey Island was just supposed to be a simple story about a boy and his monkey. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I'd mention it.

elTee
04-14-2004, 11:24 PM
I've never really had much faith in Ron. I mean, it must have worked out great for him that he doesn't have to make an MI3, cos now he can rest on his laurels and pretend he had a grand masterplan. "There is a secret. Really, there is. Shame you'll never get to find out what it is."

However, as Tim Schafer has said to Jake, the "Guybrush is a kid" theory is bang on the money. I think the fact that "Ron always wanted to make a trilogy" stems from the fact that there is so much material that was discarded from the first two games that there could be a third one - like with the mine cart scene discarded from Raiders of the Lost Ark being used in The Temple of Doom. Or maybe I'm dead wrong :)

Personally, I would have preferred it if the "Secret" was just the location of the island. I always assumed it was just a title anyway, and like Scummbuddy says - its snazzy. "Monkey Island" is plain, but add "The Secret of" and it's suddenly a mystery, and intriguing. I doubt very much that Ron had a masterplan to make a trilogy of games, with an elaborate secret that wouldn't be revealed until the end.

The worst thing about this whole "must find the secret" thing is that a load of people dismiss CMI, and put it in the same leage as EMI just because the all-powerful Ron Gilbert didn't make it. CMI is brilliant, easily a worthy addition to the series. It didn't blatantly disregard plot points from the earlier games, like EMI did (Monkey Head Robot-a-job) and maintained the necessary piratey feel.

I don't want to sound like I hate Ron, because thats not true at all. Its just that the game was made by a team - the majority of the writing, especially the jokes, being done by other people. Someone told me once that Tim Schafer told them personally that if Ron had had his way, the game would have been made as a serious one, with no comedy. Who knows if this is true, and who cares - all the Monkey Island games are good, even if I only like three of them. I'm perfectly happy in my world to pretend like the secret is simply the location of the island, and irrelevant to any sequels.

Xippion
04-15-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Drigo Zoxx
I also believe that Xippion is right, the 'kids secret' is just the explaination of the second game ending, while Ron has never clearly refered to it as the secret of Monkey Island. Also recently he said that one day he'd like to do a game which explains it all. But i'd be nonsense to just explain the story of the kids, which could already ba understand from the ending of Monkey Island 2, using a bit of imagination.

Anyways, be it the secret of the game or not, it's interesting to see how the elements of Monkey Island (the isle itself) are unusual and are also left behind any explaination in the game; the Cannibals, the Giant Monkey, the cave full of human skeletons and such--- just casual or what? I tend to think now that it's blatantly obvious that Monkey Isl is different to Melee. Melee has a few out of place things, but they're probably just red herrings. This could be implied from the use of the red herring on Melee. Monkey however is in a different boat. Everything about it is "wrong". Someone waiting to be rescued while he has his own boat... monkeys in the Caribbean... vegetarian cannibals - how is such a thing possible? and of course the giant monkey head.

Then there's the navigator head, the key to the giant monkey head - which somehow fits into Guybrush's pocket (the latter games would have you believe Guybrush can pick anything up and stoe it away). Everything is centred around the giant monkey head, there are idols there - that's where LeChuck's base is located, and even the name of the isl is Monkey Island. Yet it isn't in the centre of the isl at all! In fact, it's all the way off to the side - so much so that only a strip of beach separates it from the main-land.Originally posted by daltysmilth
Xippion, are you wanting to put voices in this proposed fangame? I'd volunteer my voice if you are. No, better to leave that to the imagination. In relation to your question about Guybrush's line - yes it's a herring.

Udvarnoky
04-15-2004, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Xippion
Melee has a few out of place things, but they're probably just red herrings. This could be implied from the use of the red herring on Melee.

This made me laugh out loud.

Thrik
04-15-2004, 02:23 AM
Hahaha, me too.

Drigo Zoxx
04-15-2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Xippion
Monkey however is in a different boat. Everything about it is "wrong". Someone waiting to be rescued while he has his own boat... monkeys in the Caribbean... vegetarian cannibals - how is such a thing possible? and of course the giant monkey head.
Everything is centred around the giant monkey head, there are idols there - that's where LeChuck's base is located, and even the name of the isl is Monkey Island.

Xippion, I was wondering if you have find any evidence in the game that your theory of the secret resembles the truth. I've read many possible explainations of the secret lately, but most (all) of them seems to fail on the same point: there's no proof! :(

ThunderPeel2001
04-15-2004, 12:25 PM
Whether Xippon is wrong or not is besides the point: Curse of Monkey Island didn't follow "the official secret"(tm) and it's still an excellent and valid addition to 1 and 2. If Xippon is convinced that CMI got it wrong, or that even Tim and Dave don't know (!), it doesn't matter!

He could still end up with an original interpretation of the third game.

I say go for it, Xippon!

Alien426
04-15-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by LucasTones
I've never really ... ... ... ... ... ... ... any sequels.
I fully agree. To me, the whole amusement park stuff is a voodoo curse by LeChuck. Elaine is right (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86428#post948492).

Will somebody fix the link color soon?

Joshi
04-15-2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Xippion
I tend to think now that it's blatantly obvious that Monkey Isl is different to Melee. Melee has a few out of place things, but they're probably just red herrings. This could be implied from the use of the red herring on Melee. Monkey however is in a different boat. Everything about it is "wrong". Someone waiting to be rescued while he has his own boat... monkeys in the Caribbean... vegetarian cannibals - how is such a thing possible? and of course the giant monkey head.

Then there's the navigator head, the key to the giant monkey head - which somehow fits into Guybrush's pocket (the latter games would have you believe Guybrush can pick anything up and stoe it away). Everything is centred around the giant monkey head, there are idols there - that's where LeChuck's base is located, and even the name of the isl is Monkey Island. Yet it isn't in the centre of the isl at all! In fact, it's all the way off to the side - so much so that only a strip of beach separates it from the main-land.

Um, just to point out, the vegetarian cannible thing only came about in CMI, a game you decided to disregard in this discussion and therefore has no relevance to your argumant. The cannibles in SOMI were definately meat eaters.

And the rest of that which may be "impossible", no no, not impossible, funny is what we're looking for. This game is not meant to reflect real life, it's meant to be, if anything, a pirate parody, a spoof if you will. I Guy who is trapped on an island and has his own boat but can't use it because he has to be rescued, its' in the rules, not only is that funny as hell, but it's also there to annoy you a bit because he spends most of his time whining to you about how he got stranded for so many years and so one only to find out he could have left any time he wanted.

And you can't call a game 'monkey Island' without having monkeys, and you can't have pirates, without being in the caribbean (remember this whole game was based on the Pirates of the Caribbean Ride) and so they just put the two together. it's not meant to be historically or geographically accurate, it's a funny game made to entertain.

And I don't know about you, buit the idea of a fish and a chicken down guybrush's pants is just funny.

and yes, everything is centered around the giant monkey head, figurtively speaking though. that's not to say that the monkey head has to be in the fricking middle of the damn island, it just means that everyones lives are effected by the monkey head.

Trust me, you're reading way too much into this.

elTee
04-16-2004, 02:30 AM
Joshi's right. This isn't some ancient mystery - the fact that the Monkey Head isn't the centre of Monkey Island means squat.

Alien, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like that :D

freddie
04-16-2004, 05:48 AM
This is all much ado about nothing.

Alien426
04-16-2004, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Joshi
Um, just to point out, the vegetarian cannible thing only came about in CMI, a game you decided to disregard in this discussion and therefore has no relevance to your argumant. The cannibles in SOMI were definately meat eaters.
Au contraire! They argued about the cholesterol content in human flesh.

hibernatus
04-16-2004, 09:56 AM
I am looking forward to your game.
BTW, i think i read in an interview that Ron Gilbert first planned the end of MI2 for MI1, but nobody liked it so he chose a different one. I was pretty sure about that, but now i can't find where i read it, so i'm not anymore.

Joshi
04-16-2004, 04:04 PM
Actually, Ron and others had first planned the entire MI1 and 2 story to be mergred into one game (The Secret of Monkey Island) but that would have taken up too many floppy disks at the time (seven was already borderline of really long) so he left it at the SOMI but then started production on MI2 straight away to finish the story. Sort of like Kill Bill.

And Alien, borderline vegetarianism isn't the same as actually becoming vegetarians. All this suggests is that they were more civilized than your average cannible which just added to the humour and didn't suggest anything more about the story or game (like the origins of Monkey Island started in space or something, oh come on, you know that sooner or later the secrets bound to be that, what with all of this over analysis os a simple early 90's computer game, I can just smell it, next we'll find the historical referance and philosophical relevence to how Space Invaders is a metaphore for the meaning of life or something.)

Drigo Zoxx
04-16-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Joshi
Actually, Ron and others had first planned the entire MI1 and 2 story to be mergred into one game (The Secret of Monkey Island) but that would have taken up too many floppy disks at the time (seven was already borderline of really long) so he left it at the SOMI but then started production on MI2 straight away to finish the story. Sort of like Kill Bill.


But at least one year passed in the game between the two stories. Guybrush has become more adult in Monkey Island 2, he's got a beard and long hair, lots of money and a new jacket. :)
They can't be seen as the first two volumes of the Lord of the Rings or such.

Joshi
04-17-2004, 02:26 PM
Well, obviously after they figured out that they needed to do two games, they pribably thoughtt his was a chance to grow guybrush a bit and change him, make him fresh, I mean who wants to play two games with a character only to have him look the same in both games.

ThunderPeel2001
04-18-2004, 07:51 PM
Where are you getting this information, Joshi?

ATMachine
04-18-2004, 09:47 PM
Well, I've heard that the very, very earliest screenshots of MI2 - before even the slideshow demo - actually had MI1 Guybrush used in them as the Guybrush sprite. This probably was intended to be replaced with the final one from the outset though.

ThunderPeel2001
04-18-2004, 11:25 PM
ATM has just reminded me: Early previews of the game (including advertisements if I'm not mistaken) claimed it was LeChuck's brother who was out to get Guybrush, so when did they have this all "planned" exactly, Joshi?

MrManager
04-19-2004, 12:19 AM
The MI1-like Guybrush was in the ads (possibly just as placeholder graphics), while the "LeChuck's hellbent brother" was in mags like Amiga Power and CU Amiga. I suspect some PR person might have gotten things mixed up there, as those previews never had any interviews with the development team.

And yeah, MI2 is built on a lot of the stuff they couldn't fit into MI1, as confirmed by Ronnie around the time that MI2 was released.

Bonus info about that! When the MI2 news first broke in... I believe it was Amiga User or something? Don't quite remember what the mag was called anymore. Anyway! They had the "first exclusive MI2 screenshot in the world!", but had made an error, and put in an early FoA screenshot instead.

Joshi
04-19-2004, 11:50 AM
Thunderpeel, I don't claim to have vast amounts of knowledge on the production of both games. Chances are, what Remi said is right and I just got a little muddled. I do remember reading somewhere (be it an interview or comment, or even something someone on these boards said a long time ago) that the whole things was meant to be one game at first but they couldn't fit it all onto their seven or eight disks and so left a lot out of the first game only to make another. I also remember reading somewhere that they started production of MI2 even before the release of MI1 for some reason, possibly because they wanted to carry on/finish the story.

I had no idea about the whole 'lechuck's brother' thing but stories change over the course of production, and that goes for most things, games, movies, even books and so the whole Lechucks brother thing would ahev changed and so on. I never said that they had the entire story mapped out from the beginning of MI1, only that they had intened for there to be just one game but didn't put in a lot of things and then, put them in the second game.

My whole point was, there is really no need to over analyse this game, when i bought it (actually a friend leant it to me and then said I could keep it, the fool) I got it for entertainment reasons and when I played it, I was entertained.

But you know what, that's me, if you want to look deeper into it then by all means, do so. And I'm not trying to hold you back from your project, if you want to make the game by all means do so, I haven't seen a very decent monkey island fangame out there so maybe yours will be the exception. I'll play it anyway.

Keep on moving.