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jesseg88
04-19-2004, 01:35 PM
Will you add bot support in Siege? It would be a great way to test our new Siege maps and play it without the bother of joining a MP game? I think requiring more than one player on the map to begin is just plain stupid. RtCW and UT2004 do a great job with their versions of Siege.

Samuel Dravis
04-19-2004, 05:51 PM
I don't think anyone is currently working on that specifically for the OJP. However, I think I remember that someone is making a mod to do just that. Try searching the forums and see what you can come up with. And yes, it would be very nice to have indeed. :)

I don't think it would be too hard to eliminate the 2 player restriction on starting a Siege game. Perhaps someone will do it for you when they get enough time. I would if I could, but I can't so I won't. ;)

razorace
04-19-2004, 06:31 PM
Actually, I am working on it as part of my TAB bot system.

I beleive Kurgan discovered a way to have bots in seige but pretty crap since they aren't designed very well, especially for siege.

Samuel Dravis
04-19-2004, 06:34 PM
OK. I'm incredibly uninformed because I just don't like reading huge threads about arcane subjects. :D

Kurgan
04-23-2004, 10:30 PM
Bots for vehicle based maps like Destroyer DON'T WORK, because the bots will leap out of vehicles almost as soon as they enter, leading to suicides long before they start flying around.

However, bots can sort of work in the included Siege maps.


For working examples, visit my Siege server: Meatgrinder Redux (see IP and status in my signature). Feel free to download the file I'm using on that server and mess with it (just give credit since I created it myself) and don't post that file on any websites (yet).


You can see how they perform in each of the maps if you stick around. ; )

But as RA said, to have truly effective Siege bots, they'll need to be re-programmed with more than just the basics they've got now.


But playing a Siege map solo is very easy, just spawn a bot on each team and you're ready to go. Or just spawn a bot on the opposite team you've selected and the map will start after a few seconds.

[JEDI] Adam
04-29-2004, 10:42 AM
Maybe its a bit off topic but...


Why would you try to replace bots with NPC's in game. They dont need bot rutes but the problem is that they will follow you. I think that changing that wont be such a problem.

Kurgan
04-29-2004, 07:18 PM
Well because NPC's don't act like human players.

Bots are (supposed to) simulate human opponents.

While NPC's are designed to either follow you and slowly shoot/swing at enemies with their one weapon or stand there and guard a location and shoot at people who get too close.... bots are designed to run "routes" through maps (like humans would) picking up ammo, health, weapons, etc and trying to rack up kills, capture flags, etc.

NPC's for saber dueling aren't so bad (if their health and force stats were tweaked accordingly) but for everything else (other than the occasional rancor or wampa to slow down somebody entering a certain area like on the included Siege maps) there's just no substitute.

Kurgan
04-30-2004, 09:46 PM
With regards to bot orders, specific orders should be possible.

It may be that anything drastic (beyond simple moving and fighting like you'd see in CTF) will require direct orders from a team leader.

But this is probably a GOOD THING because as anybody knows who's trying to coordinate a Siege team online there will always be people trying new things and sometimes those new things can be bad for the team if they go the wrong way or do the wrong thing.

Korriban is a good starting point because it's the simplest of all the Siege maps in terms of objectives for Bots to do.

It also has a lot of similarity between classes. All have sabers, all have at least Force Jump 1. All have force. There's no weapon pickups or powerups to worry about. Movement is fairly linear in most areas.

Specific "Jobs" Offensive Bots should be able to do:

1- Smashing Objects. By "smashing" I mean attacking a stationary object until it's destroyed. This is different than attacking a player because the object won't fight back AND it can only be harmed by certain weapons and is immune to force powers.

Examples:

Korriban has several "walls" that can only be harmed by sabers and Det Packs. It takes about 3 Det packs to smash 3 of the walls, the other 3 take 6 (IIRC). Twirls, Saber Barrier and Katas are especially effective against them.

Desert has walls that are immune to fists, DEMP2 and all blasters (except EWEBs). Sabers are weak against them, but can be damaged this way too.

Hoth has rocks that can be jumped over by non Jedi (with difficulty), but are also vulnerable to all weapons except blasters (but EWEBs work well), DEMP2 and fists (sabers are weak against them).

Korriban also has four beam projectors that hold up a force field for the Red Crystal. Destroy each projector before taking the crystal. 1 Det Pack or 1 Kata is enough to take each projector down.

Hoth's command center (the last objective to defend for the Rebels) has computers in it that Imperials need to destroy. They are immune to DEMP2, Fists and BlasTech shots. Everything else can hurt them, but Sabers are somewhat weak. The best way to destroy them is through the use of explosives or EWEBs, though a single Repeater user can run around and shoot them all until they're destroyed (except for the central computer which has a glass panel on it, the glass panel is blaster proof, but the electronics underneath can be damaged just like the others).

On Desert the computers in the Communications Stations can be damaged by just about everything but Fists.


There is one "moving" object this applies to. On Hoth there is an R5 astromech droid that has to be killed (very weak, a few Repeater shots or a saber kata is enough to kill him and he moves very slowly). Once killed (by either team) his head becomes like a flag. It has to be carried to a switch (then the person has to hit "use") an the codes are "captured" unlocking a door for the team to advance.

-Some Smashable Objects Fire Back-
On Hoth and on Desert there are smashable defenses that attack back. Hoth has four automated Laser Turrets that fire deadly blasts that can destroy a player in 1 hit or a walker in a half dozen hits. These can be damaged by anything but fists. Once destroyed they never come back. Additionally on Hoth there are two ceiling mounted guns that respawn after they are destroyed (a few seconds later). But once the Imperials have breached the Infrimary (next objective) they disappear, destroyed or not. Most players run past them but destroying them (with just about anything) will buy time for your team.
The "laser defenses" setup by Techs on Desert are only a threat if they were activated. If active they start firing at nearby enemies, but otherwise they are harmless and a waste of time to destroy (again with just about anything).

2- Capture Objects Once. This is similar (but not identical I think) to Flag Capturing in CTF.

Basically this means an object should be "Grabbed" like a flag by running over it and then taken to point B on the map (varies with map). It only needs to be captured once, then it can be ignored. Obviously this is very important because bots should not continue to attempt to capture something that's not there, or defend something that's not there.

Likewise teammates should DEFEND the person carrying the object, just as they would protect a flag carrier in CTF.

Examples:

Korriban has three colored Crystals that need to be grabbed and taken to a ramp of colored torches (tag a torch while carrying a crystal to capture it). While the Crystal is held, Mana regeneration is severely slowed down and Force Speed cannot be used. If a carrier is killed the crystal drops to the ground and will respawn in its original position if not picked up for 30 (? or maybe 20) seconds. It can't be "returned" like a flag by the defenders, they have to protect it where it lays until it respawns.

Hoth has the "Access Codes" hidden in a Droid head. Once the droid is destroyed (see above) the codes need to be carried to point B and "use" has to be done (while holding the codes) on an access panel switch. This captures the codes. IF the carrier drops the codes, it's just like the Crystal situation. However if the player dies down an elevator shaft or into a bottomless pit (from falling) the codes instantly respawn in their original place (as a droid head, the droid never need be destroyed again).

3- "Use" Objects This falls almost under navigation, but certain key areas require fine tuning.

-Elevators- Some elevators (such as those on Hoth) require you to press "use" on a switch to make the lift go up or down after a split second. Other elevators (such as those on Korriban) require a "button" to be Force Pushed, which then triggers the lift up or down after a momentary delay.

-Switches- This is a complicated one, because the Tech class is needed (on offense, remember defense goes through these switches as if they aren't there) to "hack" the switch. This means they stand (or crouch, which is better) up against the switch and hold down "use" until the switch is hacked (usually takes several seconds, I forget exactly how long, perhaps 10-20). If they are knocked back, killed or interrupted they have to start over completely. Once hacked through the door is "unlocked" and never needs to be hacked again. Anyone can then pass through.

Other classes have two other options: go around or "smash" the switch.

Smashing the switch is the same as smashing other objects, so would fit under that category, but again only certain things can damage switches. They are immune to Fists, Demp2 and BlasTech, but everything else can harm them (IIRC). EWEBs and explosives are best, sabers are somewhat slower.

*Note* An advanced strategy used by many human players is this, and this could be added later perhaps, fly a Swoop bike up to the switch, then hop off (you usually have to back up an inch or so) then attack the bike, so that the bike starts flaming (about to explode like a bomb) then get away quickly. The resulting explosion damages a switch severally (so it often only takes one good hit from an explosive or saber twirl to take it down).
-----------------

Jedi of course need not smash all switches, but can often go around using Force Jump to hop through windows, or take an alternate path (on Hoth for example they can go another way) and avoid the switch altogether.

There is ONE switch on Hoth that cannot be hacked, it HAS to be smashed to access.

-Defenses- This is a defensive one, and I'm only listing it here because it's a major one, the rest are all offensive functions really. A defensive Tech (this only applies to Desert) can setup laser defenses. There are several cannons that have switches below them. Using the same technique as "hacking" (hold use for several seconds on it) the laser is then "activated." The laser cannot be deactivated, only destroyed. Setting up defenses is important because it allows extra protection of objectives.

4- Using Inventory Items

Usually this isn't a problem for bots. If they have an item they use it instantly (this applies to the Seeker remotes held by Mercenaries on Desert for example). If other classes are implemented for bots other than Assault this will become more important.

One object that really needs to be usable is the EWEB blaster cannon. This is an inventory item (switch to inventory, hit "use item") that places a stationary blaster that has rapid fire and never runs out of ammo. Once placed it can only aim. The person has to hit "use item" again to undeploy the gun and move around freely. Enemies can DESTROY the gun itself which causes it to blow up in the face of the user, usually kill them. If they survive they cannot deploy a new EWEB until they respawn.

EWEBs are terrible weapons for fighting enemies, but they are wonderful for destroying objects (switches, walls, Laser Turrets) from a distance. Set one up, and continuously fire in a stream of shots to destroy equipment. Then undeploy and move on. If being attacked by an enemy you can't hit, generally it's best to undeploy and fight them if your other weapons, then when you have a bit of freedom, deploy again and fire at the target equipment.

If the Scout class is usable by bots, then bots will need to know how to use the Cloak. This is available only to some Scouts (Defense on Hoth, Offense on Desert). It can be used all the time, but at minimum it should be used when sniping with the Disruptor.

In practice the bots tend to just use an object the instant they know they have it. This is bad because of the above, plus with the Tech class who often gets a Stationary Shield, shield placement is VERY important.

A Tech should know to place a shield in front of the doors on Hoth to stop the AT-ST, or in front of the trench (again to slow the walker when it is still farther off), shield in front of the Bridge Controls bunker switch, etc.
Also anytime a lock is hacked or destroyed, a shield should be placed in front of the door to stop people from getting in (enemies, since allies can pass through shields).

5-Vehicles

This is VERY CLOSE to using objects, with a few differences. Basically a player must hit "USE" (sometimes jumping ON TOP of the vehicle works too) on an unoccupied vehicle to get in. If they hit use again they drop out. Currrently bots will drop out immediately after entering a vehicle. They should probably stay inside until all nearby objectives are completed or until ordered to exit the vehicle.

Once inside a vehicle they can move normally, and fire normally, but they can't jump. If the vehicle is nearly destroyed, many players will try to drop out to avoid being killed (and the resulting huge explosion) but this isn't always much help.

When inside a vehicle, a player should have a goal (either ordered or known) such as "smash this object" or "go to this area" or "follow this person."

Examples: On Hoth the AT-ST must make it over the trench/ridge and through the big doors to advance. Then it must make it across the bridge (bridge must be extended first). Finally it must aim at and destroy the shield generator on the left rock face with lasers and (secondary) rockets. Other players should use EWEBs and Rockets to help out but primarily protect the AT-ST.

On Desert, various Swoop bikes respawn in garages. These are used to navigate to the other areas in the map (switches mostly) and can be used as makeshift grenades to blow up equipment when destroyed.


There's probably more I should add but this is enough for now I think.

In general some other suggested orders for bots:


1) Change Class to X (Assault, Heavy Weapons, Demolitions, Scout, Tech, Jedi).
As of now bots only use the Assault class (no idea how to change this) on every map on every team.

Most of the time Assault can complete an objective, but he isn't always the best one for the job. Many shortcuts can be taken by other classes, and some classes are required to complete some objectives.

This is a key decision to make because switching classes kills a player and forces them to wait a few seconds (up to 20) before they can respawn again. In the wrong hands it could really screw up a team dynamic to have bots suiciding constantly.

Examples: On Hoth the Jedi can take a shortcut to extend the bridge for the AT-ST and can capture the Access Codes much easier (by jumping across a ravine) as well as take a shortcut to the command center (again with Force Jump). But he's very weak against computers at the end.

Techs on Hoth can take two shortcuts, one to the Bridge controls bunker and one to the Infirmary. But they can't damage rocks nor can they damage the Shield Generator or the equipment in the Command Center or destroy switches.

2) Attack/Distract Moving Object

This applies on Hoth to the AT-ST. On Defense somebody has to destroy or delay the AT-ST from destroying everything or advancing. The Tech's DEMP2 stuns the walker and explosives damage it, but blasters and Disruptors are ineffective. Fists harm it, but nobody in their right mind uses fists to attack an AT-ST!

Techs can put up shields to slow the walker as well.

I say "distract" because there are Rancors on Korriban and Desert. Offensive players have to worry about them the most, so one player should "lead" the Rancor away from the other players, fighting it but mostly distracting. If the beast is dead or the objective completed they can run away and join the others. I've noticed that on Defense bots tend to ignore the Rancors and so get eaten by them. Rancors are killable by all weapons, but it takes a LOOONG time and isn't worth it in the long run.

This applies in a limited fashion to the Wampa on Hoth, but it's so weak that just about anyone can kill it with some effort, so as long as bots don't just stand there and get killed by it, they're ok.

3) "Heal Me/Heal Object" This is an important feature of the Tech class. Techs can stand or crouch up against another player and hold down "USE" this will slowly restore their health AND ammo. If a Tech sees an wounded teammate they should do this automatically, but sometimes it may be necessary to order them to heal.

The one exception to this is on Korriban the Offensive team's Tech doesn't have this ability. Instead they have Team Heal, which should be used whenever they have enough mana and wounded teammates are near.

Techs can see (just by looking at them) how much health and ammo a player has (green bar is health, yellow is ammo). The Offensive team's Tech on Korriban can't give ammo.

Healing objects is also very important on Hoth and Desert. Techs can repair damaged (but not completely destroyed) objects (Defense only).

Examples:

On Hoth: Techs can repair damaged Emplaced Guns (from the side, because if you repair from the back you will "activate" the gun and use it like a cannon, if you do it from the front you'll be blocking its firing). They can also repair the automated Laser Turrets (but NOT the ceiling mounted ones). They can also repair computers in the Command Center. Just like repairing players they have to be touching, facing and holding "USE" to do so.

On Desert: Techs can repair damaged switches. They should be aware that standing near a door opens it to anyone who wants to come in, so they risk letting in enemies while they repair switches. Thus a shield should first be placed over the "hole". A "hacked" (unlocked) switch can't be repaired, only a semi-damaged one. They can also repair computers.

4) "Give Ammo" - Another Tech function (not applicable to the Offensive Tech on Korriban) is to drop an ammo battery. When facing away from everything (ie: nothing blocking your immediate path) press "USE" and you throw a "battery" that when picked up by friend or foe gives a set amount of ammo.

On Korriban this is especially important because if a Demolitionist runs out of ammo this is the ONLY way he can get more. The "Heal Me" method of giving ammo only works if he has at least 1 bomb still in his stash. Batteries should always be placed on the ground in close proximety to allies. The Bot shouldn't pick up his own battery, since it gives him nothing.

More later if I think of some, and any suggestions welcome.

Basically those are the things that bots need to be able to do to be effective in Siege, and orders should reflect those.

Siege Destroyer/Asteroids is another story, but this fits into the Vehicles category, basically a player should NEVER eject from the vehicle once they're inside and they should hold "Jump" for the first 10 seconds (maximum) they are inside in order to launch into hyperspace. Otherwise they have to be able to "think in 3-D" in terms of navigation since ships can fly anywhere.

razorace
05-01-2004, 12:41 AM
Great post Kurgan. I'll be sure to be checking it when I'm working on the seige code.

Kurgan
05-01-2004, 10:51 AM
Rundown of actions on Siege maps (Heal/Give Ammo to Allies applies to all, except the last one):

Korriban:

Smash Walls
Smash Beam Projectors
Capture Crystals
Capture Sceptor
Smash Coffin
Force Push Elevator Switches
Smash Rancor

Hoth:

Use Ammo/Shield Recharge Stations
Smash Large Turrets
Smash Respawning Ceiling Turrets
Throw Elevator Switches
Smash Destroyable Switch
Hack Locked Door Switches
Smash/Repair Computers
Smash Shield Generator
Smash/Repair Emplaced Guns
Smash R5 droid
Capture R5 Droid Head (Access Codes)
Throw Switch (while Carrying Access Codes)
Smash Rocks
Smash AT-ST
Smash Wampa
Use AT-ST Vehicle (navigate, smash object)

Desert:

Use Ammo/Shield/Health Recharge Stations
Smash Walls
Smash/Repair Emplaced Guns
Smash/Hack/Repair Switches
Smash/Activate Laser Defenses
Smash/Repair Computers
Smash Arena Gates
Throw Shield Switch (Control Tower)
Capture Droid Parts
Use Swoop Vehicles (navigate, smashing optional)
Smash Rancor

Destroyer

Use ships
Smash lots of targets (!)

Kurgan
05-05-2004, 03:39 AM
Btw, very encouraging to hear your progress with the Siege bots! Can't wait to test out the ones who can actually attack/defend objectives!