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JBRAA
06-05-2004, 09:33 AM
There is info available on the Mixnmojo Game Database.

http://www.mixnmojo.com/php/site/gamedb.php?gameid=116

"a true adventure-style sequel to the original Full Throttle", that sounds really good in my ears.

If you read the info you can see that "Bill Tiller had intended to post some of the art he did for this game on his website, but the LucasArts legal department forbid his doing so. Apparently they want to keep this cancellation secret."

What cause can LEC legal have to "block" those images?
It would be good will of LEC to let us see them.

ATMachine
06-05-2004, 11:14 AM
Sorry, LEC Legal doesn't know the meaning of the word "goodwill." The people there are heartless b******s.

They fear another huge outburst of anger from fans. They're afraid that if we knew that LEC cancelled an adventure-style sequel to Full Throttle in order to create an arcadey beat-'em-up game, that we'd launch some sort of protest on the scale of the ones for Sam and Max 2.

I do think that they should let Bill Tiller release the art for it, since there's no hope of revival for the game. Unfortunately, the guys in suits don't agree.

Dalixam
06-05-2004, 11:23 AM
They probably don't want us to see the art because it's great and they know if was a mistake to cancel it. Btw. when was this info added?

ATMachine
06-05-2004, 11:29 AM
Yesterday. I added it myself.
JBRAA saw it so quickly because he is someone else charged with maintaining the database.

Huz
06-05-2004, 10:05 PM
>:

Skinkie
06-05-2004, 11:46 PM
The concept painting looks very loyal to the original game.

Tomas
06-06-2004, 04:39 AM
That concept painting was also posted (and quickly "removed") when Bill was featured (http://www.gamasutra.com/galleries/visual_art/william_tiller/index.htm) on gamasutra.com (http://www.gamasutra.com). It's no longer linked from the main article but you can view it right here (http://www.gamasutra.com/galleries/visual_art/william_tiller/work7.htm) along with Bill's own comments about the image. Since you have to be logged in to view the contents of gamasutra I'll just post what he had to say about it:
Coyote Spit is a town I designed for an earlier version of Full Throttle 2, while at Lucas Arts.
It is a mining town that gets its power needs from the Coyote Spit -- the
waterfall that pours through the "ears" of Coyote Mountain. I used this
image to get myself up to speed on the whole Full Throttle image style that
was first developed by Peter Chan and Larry Ahern. Surrealist architect
Lebbeus Woods and noir comic book artist Mike Mignola inspired the first
Full Throttle team but the Hildebrandt brothers also inspired me. This was
all painted in Photoshop over a pencil sketch I scanned in.

James Isaac
06-06-2004, 06:21 AM
When was this game in development (what year)? Was it just after the origional Full Throttle or just before Hell on Wheels?

Brushguy
06-06-2004, 03:07 PM
This is very interesting. In fact I'm going to e-mail them.

Shows how Lucasarts is rapidly declining, if they start development on a true adventure sequel and cancel it to put in its place a dated action game.

I would also like to know the date on this cancelled adventure.

ATMachine
06-06-2004, 04:43 PM
It was likely being made sometime after Curse of Monkey Island finished, but it was stopped before 2002. I know that much. So maybe around 2000-2001.

VoodooFX
06-06-2004, 05:02 PM
well it's weird reading that platform is PC(DOS), but if i would have to guess it was in developement around or just after Curse of MI, around 1997, when Tiller was still with LEC.

Joshi
06-06-2004, 05:23 PM
Pity really, it's art, not just that, but Tiller art and that's something I know a lot of us would like to see, but you can't mix art with legal crap, it just doesn't work and unfortunatly that means some art doesn't see the light of day because of those damn dirty lawyers.

Brushguy
06-06-2004, 07:19 PM
I've just realized something. It's slightly off-topic, but it talks about why Lucasarts is cancelling all their adventure games. Feel free to argue against my point of view if you want to (I'm also going to point this argument of mine to mnelson@lucasarts.com pronto):

When Lucasarts said that "this is not the appropriate time to release a graphic adventure on the PC," they couldn't have been more right. But why is not the appropriate time? It's their own dumb faults. This is proved on three points.

1) Lucasarts is (or was) clearly the leading adventure developer in the marketing business. In 2001, 2002, 2003, and what looks like is going to be 2004 also, Lucasarts created one number of adventure games: zero. Smaller companies stopped making their own adventure projects, because after all, if the mighty Lucasarts, the gaming giant that other companies look at, wasn't making them anymore, then those smaller companies would falsely believe that the adventure genre was dead. With the smaller companies not releasing their own adventure games anymore, no more adventure games were coming out, which meant that the market would not accept nor embrace a fresh exciting title. Not even Sam and Max.

2) While Sam and Max was under production by a dedicated team of the only people who at Lucasarts who actually cared, Mr. Nelson, VP of Finance and Operations, and his evil cohorts, despite the large amount of anticipation for the game, did next to nothing to market or advertise the game, outside of packaging and re-releasing the prequel everywhere possible. In fact, they only released 2 screenshots while it was alive, and instead supported the billionth Star Wars title to pass through their doors. So if there's no advertisements going around, nobody's hearing about the game, or even getting excited about it, ergo if nobody's heard of it, then obviously it would've sold poorly, but that's completely at the fault of Lucasarts.

3) Full Throttle: Payback. It speaks for itself. If Lucasarts takes a perfectly good adventure game before it even sees the light of day, throws it out, and replaces it with a dated fighting / action game, well you know what they think of adventures. In fact, I got more excited over that one piece of concept art and information about it than I ever did over 2003's Full Throttle 2.

So in short, the reason it's not the appropriate time is completely Lucasarts' own fault. They cancel or hide their own adventure projects, go for years on end without any adventures at all, and then they immediately turn around blame their own abandoned PC adventure game market for being too weak, which is their own doing. Anybody agree with me?

Rapp Scallion
06-07-2004, 07:36 AM
Have you sent this to LA? You should.

I think I agree, I just read quick through it, and it seemed quite correct.

-Rapp Scallion

Bring Sam'n'Max back

Edit:
Well, I saw that you were going to send it to Mike Nelson. Too bad he's not the president anymore, so you should send it to more people, I think.

VoodooFX
06-07-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Brushguy
(I'm also going to point this argument of mine to mnelson@lucasarts.com pronto):


Is 'pronto' a real word, Sam?

Oh how i love to torture myself :ball:

JBRAA
06-07-2004, 11:27 AM
If G Lucas took care of his intellectual properties, EXCEPT Star Wars, you'd see a superb Full Throttle 2 game. Infact, you'd have already played it and be visiting FT2 fan sites on mixnmojo. I think G Lucas only care about his Star Wars and that is it. He's a jerk!

VoodooFX
06-07-2004, 11:34 AM
I'd say he doesn't have time to take care of every single IP he's holding, that's why he doesn't run LEC himself, i bet he has no idea what going on in LEC at the moment.

The Tingler
06-07-2004, 01:40 PM
As much as George Lucas gets on my nerves, he's the one person you can't blame for cancelling Sam & Max.

Let the counter-argument begin...

Jake
06-07-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Brushguy
(I'm also going to point this argument of mine to mnelson@lucasarts.com pronto)

Why to Mike Nelson? He's not the acting president anymore. Writing these people harassing emails will do nothing.



In unrelated news, I've changed Full Throttle Payback's database listing to now be categorized as PC Win95/98 instead of PC DOS, because this game was definitely in development post-CMI.

Brushguy
06-07-2004, 05:51 PM
I plan to send my long discussion to several people at Lucasarts (Randy Breen, Mary Bihr, and that new president guy), but I like bugging Mike Nelson.

I also think that George Lucas doesn't know what's going on at Lucasarts. On the other hand, he could be saying, "You're doing lots of Star Wars? Making lots of money? Keep it up."

Either way, we can't blame him for the death of Sam and Max 2 and Full Throttle 2 (the correct one).

JBRAA
06-07-2004, 07:07 PM
I also think that George Lucas doesn't know what's going on at Lucasarts. On the other hand, he could be saying, "You're doing lots of Star Wars? Making lots of money? Keep it up."

It isn't smart thinking "good income = measure how good our games are". Without their comfortable Star Was license they would be in another situation.

Either way, we can't blame him for the death of Sam and Max 2 and Full Throttle 2 (the correct one).

Blame doesn't solve anything directly, but it does spotlight where the problem is. The wrong people made the wrong decitions, and G Lucas should have sorted it.

Consider this: He is Lucas of LucasArts. It is his company. If he neglects it, it is his fault, indirectly. If you are king and leave your country, aren't you to blame when your country been invaded.

Jake
06-07-2004, 07:30 PM
Brushguy and company, you're taking a way way simplistic approach to this.

First, I suspect George Lucas knows a great deal more about what goes on at LucasArts, regarding what projects are cancelled and the like, than you think.

Second, as far as I know, Full Throttle Payback never actually entered full on "production." I think they were given some time and money to map out a design and concept art, but as far as I know LucasArts never gave them thousands of dollars and a full team of programmers and artists. There are no screenshots, no engine, no code really for Full Throttle Payback that I've ever heard of.

There are COUNTLESS projects which get that far within LucasArts, and everywhere else in the games industry. For every classic LEC title that's had a sequel produced (or gets a sequel announced and cancelled mid-production) there have probably been ten other ideas tossed around. I've heard very reliable rumors that sequels to DOTT, Zak, and a Monkey 5 have all been considered, sort of roughly thought out, and scratched for one reason or another (not to mention the 2nd and 3rd games in the Loom trilogy, as well as the two Indy adventures that got scratched while still on the runway). This sort of thing happens all the time in the games industry. Wagging your finger at LucasArts is probably partially justified, but doing it every time you catch the tiniest word of something getting axed that you know almost nothing about... is foolish. Its seriously overreacting, and damages the effect that a letter writing campaign / fan uprising can have if something actually important happens.

When they cancelled Sam & Max I think that was a huge mistake. They had a full team producing that game for over a year, and most everyone in the public who seemed to know about it was pleased about it.

But, Full Throttle Payback was basically a proposal - an idea some people came up with within the company - and LucasArts said "no not right now." What happened after that (Ahern, Ackley and Tiller eventually all quitting the company, and Hell on Wheels being given the green light) is extremely sucky, but this is in no way "another Sam & Max 2" or "yet another of the exact same example."

And third, none of the current upper management at LucasArts (with the noted exception of Randy Breen) was even around during the Full Throttle Payback days. That was in fact probably even pre-Simon Jeffery, let alone pre-Mike Nelson or pre-Part-Time New Guy (whatever his name is). What sort of response do you expect to get when you write people complaining about something that happened 4-5 years ago involving both a management team AND a game design team that both packed up and left the company years ago? You will probably simply be brushed off as a jerk, frustrating as that may be. :(

So, my advice is, don't oversimply just because you like getting riled up at and writing nasty letters to LucasArts' management. :)

ThunderPeel2001
06-07-2004, 10:01 PM
Well said, Jake! Sam N Max was the real crime, let's not lose focus of that.

I hope whoever the new president is sees how badly this acting prez destroyed the relationship with the Lucasfans that they had tried to build!!

What's the point in assigning someone to read to and respond to our emails if the next guy who comes along says, "sod that, we don't need to know what our loyal fans of 20 years think!".

Beaurocracy, man! :(

The new guy always has to prove he can take action and has a "vision" -- "cancel this, scrap that! I know what I'm doing!". Grrrr :mad:

Brushguy
06-08-2004, 11:01 AM
Jake, you're right about me getting hyperactive over one piece of concept art for a game that probably didn't even enter production. You're also right that several games get into a concept stage but never ever enter production. However, I still hold true to the first two points of my argument. I've omitted the third point from my letter to Lucasarts (which I haven't sent yet)

If you must know, I really didn't care about Full Throttle: Payback, I just threw that third point in so my argument wouldn't be completely off-topic. :)

Btw Jake, are you ever going to upload those "news clippings" to samandmax.net ???

The Tingler
06-08-2004, 01:51 PM
Jim Ward. Or it is funnier to pretend we can't remember the new President's name?

I've got a feeling he's going to be even more tight on things like adventure games than Mike Nelson was.

Laserschwert
06-08-2004, 05:23 PM
Let's just call those people up at the highest room in the highest building of the LucasArts-building "suits". That spares us the hassle of remembering the names of the everchanging cast of the dope show up there.

Joshi
06-09-2004, 05:20 PM
First of all, if you're going to send an email of that sort to someone important in LA, make sure you get your facts right. Was LA the #1 in adventure games way back when. I think you'll find that different people and different companies see it differently and think that company's such as Sierra had it good. Also please note, with company's producing such games as Syberia 2 and The Longest Journey 2 (offical name forgotten), the adventure game market is not as low as LucasArts would have you believe (I put a tiny bit more trust in the other game developers than I do with LA so I can at least anticipate those two games to come out with less fear of cancellation) and therefore the drop in adventure game sales isn't totally due to them. For instance, better engines, better storylines, better graphics and overall better technology allow gameplay of other types to be more enjoyable than the point n click adventuregame and the X generation enjoy FPS's and so on as appose to the walking around and solving riddles type of game, therefore you cannot say that this is totally LA's fault (although they have added to the problem somewhat by creating loads of SW games, none of which have been predictably succesful adventures games).

And finally, I think G Lucas's word on the creation of LA was "Whatever you do, be the best." Somewhere along the line the best didn't bring in the money and so they stuck to what worked instead and bnrought in money. as horrible as it is to think, this world is built on little pieces of paper with pictures of royalty or presidents on them and there's no getting around that.

If you're going to write to LA, do some research first, and then send it off, because nothing pisses these people off more than someone arguing a point without being in possesion of all the facts.

JBRAA
06-09-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Joshi
And finally, I think G Lucas's word on the creation of LA was "Whatever you do, be the best." Somewhere along the line the best didn't bring in the money and so they stuck to what worked instead and bnrought in money. as horrible as it is to think, this world is built on little pieces of paper with pictures of royalty or presidents on them and there's no getting around that.

I guess the people at LucasArts are trying, and of course doing work for a living, and profit must be made to the company. What's really strange is how these people choose what game to develop, and how much budget the game will get. For example: FT2 Hell on Wheels, should have gotten much more resources of man power and talents than it got. It was almost like LucasArts decition makers thought nobody would notice the bad quality in many aspects of the game.

And another thing. I agree about getting facts straight before complaining. But I do understand LucasArts should be more open and talk to us, and not hide stuff. Yeah, and complain to the right people is another thing. Agree there too. I'm just making conversation.

I don't know much about other game communites, when it comes to how much contact and how honest the company is to their game fan base. It seems to me LucasArts needs to grow up and face us. I know in fact that is what they have done etc, but to write stuff on their company 'about page' how they work and stuff, when they know it's just professional stuff to make them look professional. What I'm babbling about here is, yes I am coming to the point here, is that LucasArts should if they had goodwill talk to us and explain how they think when it comes to decline or give 'go' to a Loom 2 game for example. Ok, sure, you could say that is company business and not meant for the public. But, when comparing how it -seems- how other companies listen how much as they can to their game fan base, and communicate, it seems ridicolus and immature to hide stuff, and act like their own company is useless and can only do Star Wars stuff. I mean, what's so hard about doing an original adventure, or an original story?
If they had changed name to Star Wars games, I wouldn't complain, I would leave. Leave the community as regular visitor. So by that, I pessimistically say that the name LucasArts has place in my heart, in my game heart, and I can't see LucasArts' tombstone yet.

Jake, you're free to take the word and explain how I've misunderstood stuff. =)

Hehe, other than that, I don't have anything to say.

Joshi
06-09-2004, 06:36 PM
The big wigs at the company would be too busy to talk to us, the only people at the company who would actually talk to us (allegedly) are the pr people and they're not too good either.

The fact of the matter is, the PR people get told what to say by hte bigwigs, but aren't told most of the actual info that we want to know. It is actually impossible to have a real conversation one on one with the main people at LA (and this is true for most big companies, it's not just an LA thing).

Plus, for them to start talking now would be suicide as they would be sure to get a barrage of sam n max complaints again, and considering they just won't do anything, it would just be wasted for both them and the complainers and so it wouldn't help.

a communication between us and them would be nice, but it won't happen sadly.

dpolsrod
06-10-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Joshi
... and The Longest Journey 2 (offical name forgotten)...

The full name will be The Longest Journey 2: Dreamfall.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Loved the first one.
And the company is FunCom.
It's Norwegian. Yay! :p

BTW: Åssen går det, Rapp Scallion?

VoodooFX
06-11-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by JBRAA
I mean, what's so hard about doing an original adventure, or an original story?


Actually it's harder than you think, you need good writer for story, who would work out the world, the characters. You need talented artists who can translate the vision from paper into computer images, like backgrounds for example.
But you must remember adventures are moving into 3D, so the making process is much more time consuming, requires more people to do the work. With most of the talented people gone from LEC it's almost impossible for them to make an adventure worthy of name LucasArts.

And when you add all this up, mix it with not exactly good sales you can see why there aren't as many games as in old days

JBRAA
06-11-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by VoodooFX
Actually it's harder than you think, you need good writer for story, who would work out the world, the characters. You need talented artists who can translate the vision from paper into computer images, like backgrounds for example.
But you must remember adventures are moving into 3D, so the making process is much more time consuming, requires more people to do the work. With most of the talented people gone from LEC it's almost impossible for them to make an adventure worthy of name LucasArts.

And when you add all this up, mix it with not exactly good sales you can see why there aren't as many games as in old days

True, there you have it. "More effort". I'm sure LucasArts could attract those kind of people if they really wanted to.
What I really meant by "what's so hard about doing an original story?", is that they can do it, but they aren't. Like, what's the problem? A super-good game like, Day of the Tentacle, hits one of greatest computer games of time. But, saleswise, a super game is probable to require perhaps 4X the budget, but with only 3X income. Or how is it??? At that sales-view, it is easy to choose to produce less-great games that have better sales-ratio. I don't know how the "gamequality/sales ratio" works. But even a poor effort game can sell good enough to make it good business, because LOTS of people by games they know nothing about except back of box. Like, for me, I most interested in game-play and demos. "back-of-box buys" mostly result in bad experience for me.
I asked my question misdirected. This is a better frased one:
Why do some companies make massive effort to make a game-of-the-year, while other don't, when they infact could do it financially.
Isn't that just bad for gamers? Perhaps it's good for gamecompanies to get income more easily, but if/when game-buyers will catch-on, and not buy less-good games any more, the gamecompanies are in for a downhill journey. Atleast, I think better games can only do good on the game-market, and worse games can do small good things for individual gamecompanies, but worse-games would do harm to the game-market. Like, if it's only **** out there, why bother visit a gamestore, or online-gamestore. I've stretched this topic out a bit, but I think this is what it is all about on the decition-table at LEC and many other companies.

I'm just making a "big deal" out of all this, cause I do really like high quality stories in games. And professional, and "exciting" dialog. Not book-kind-of-stories, but integrated kind.
And a CRAP-game like Full Throttle Hell on Wheels looked like, would just make me say "meh" and frown at the game. Like, who gives a sec for less-great games when there are good ones. Ha!

Edit: Dont' LucasArts have the financial resources to make high-quality games?

Jake
06-12-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by JBRAA
Edit: Dont' LucasArts have the financial resources to make high-quality games?

Sometimes you have to wonder these days...

Joshi
06-12-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by VoodooFX
With most of the talented people gone from LEC it's almost impossible for them to make an adventure worthy of name LucasArts.


Which completely contradicts EFMI, but whatever.

And please note, good games were easier way back when because of two things. One, technology was crapper and therefore people expected less and got more than they bargained for with exceptional games coming out of LA.
Two, it was easier to do (compared to now), the SCUMM interface was new and groundbreaking, but writing the programming code is done by 13 year olds now, so back then, talented programmers weren't exactly having it so tough. And with less emphasis on the graphics (characters being mere pixels across, see: The Secret of Monkey Island for an example), the could focus more on the story, puzzels and charcters.

Plus, they were easier and more profitable to create than most of the early 3D stuff for Star wars and other LA games that used a 3D engine.

Now it is harder for them to actually make a good game, forgetting a good adventure game, but just a good game in general and so they put most of their resources into games that will sell rather than games that are good (in comparison to games produced about a decade ago)

QueZTone
06-12-2004, 04:18 PM
how much did Syberia or Syberia 2 cost to produce and market and how were the profits? did it profit?

Joshi
06-12-2004, 04:49 PM
Syberia 2 isn't out yet, and I'm not sure if Syberia profited or not, but it obviously did well enough to sprout a sequel (the game was good no doubt, one of the better adventure games out there, definately, but not exactly up there with the best).

Considering most companies look at cashflow anyway, it would be a pretty good bet that Syberia did make a profit, or at least a decent sized fanbase.

Jake
06-12-2004, 05:35 PM
Syberia 2's been out for a while... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000CDYOH/qid%3D1086989258/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-5449858-3852105

Joshi
06-13-2004, 02:22 PM
Probably not out in england yet then.