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Gotaiken
06-15-2004, 03:39 AM
Hello, this thread will be where you express your ideas around how you feel the saber should be controlled, ie. mouse sabering, as the maker of this thread I will start.

Kurgan
06-15-2004, 04:20 AM
"Mouse sabering" (as you call it) is a very popular idea with the masses.

However, most of them haven't seen it applied practically in an online game.

I have.

There is a game called "Die By the Sword" which came out some years ago (shortly after

the first Jedi Knight). You had two options: "normal mode" which let you press various

keys for various types of swings (the game was all about sword fighting and melee

battles btw), the other was called "VSIM" and it let you move the mouse and wherever you

moved your mouse, your sword went that way.

Cool huh?

But, sadly, this is what it leads to...

In actual battles online, people quickly realized that to win a battle, you could just

wiggle the mouse back and forth as fast as you could and that would simply beat down

your opponent.

So it was just a mouse-mashing-fest with no real skill involved, except the person who's

wrist gave out first would lose.

Additionally, it was tricky to get used to the controls, since you had to "turn" with

the keys as well as move around, since your mouse controlled only your weapon.


Suffice to say, this system isn't all its cracked up to be.



Another idea that was put forth was in the (now Xbox only) game Obi-Wan. This had the

"glyph" system.

I never played the final version of the game, since I (like so many others) was so put

off by the long delays and the cancellation of the PC version (then we forgot all about

it because of the far superior Jedi Outcast), but I'm told that basically you had two

attacks. One was you press the attack button and you swing, just like in JK1. The second

button was a "glyph" button. You held it down and moved the mouse around (or I suppose

one of the analog sticks on the Xbox controller as it ended up) and then released it

when you were ready. This let you do all sorts of moves, since each move was keyed to a

"tracing" move.

Again I never actually tried it to see if this was any good or not, but another game

that used "glyph" type stuff in controls was Black & White. Of course this was only for

certain commands, not for everything.

The part about having it as a seperate button made it so that you could still move and

look around without interrupting the action.

In the PC version the problem was discussed (since you don't have two analog controls on

a PC usually) that while you held down the "glyph attack button" you were moving the

mouse around and you couldn't "look" while doing this (or I suppose "turn" with the

arrow keys much slower). So aiming would be a major problem.. how do you line up an

attack if you can't aim? In the meantime your opponent is running all over the place....


The other popular idea is the "Block Button" which seems to have run its course with

this project (IIRC) in favor of auto dodging.


Me, I don't have a problem with the current saber system as is in JA 1.01 MP, except

that like a lot of people, I wouldn't mind seeing greater accuracy with collisions and

blocking (ie: so fewer occurances of the "I hit you but the saber passed through and did

no damage" glitches that people report seeing so often).


The big thing to keep in mind is how this will work in MP.

In SP you can do just about anything you want (well maybe not anything, because the SDK

is not available for SP), but in MP you have to factor in lag and balance. This

nullifies a lot of the "cool" ideas some people have unfortunately.

Dbl90
06-15-2004, 05:13 AM
Written with no sleep...forgive any typos

Personally I truly dislike the JA combat system because it baisicly amounts to spamming cheap and ugly looking combosand spinning around in circles hoping to score mutliple hits. This adds to a really odd and akward experiance, but is the way things are. Raven seems to like DFA's and Kata's because the power of them has not been modified in any update...with that said...

I like the idea of having a more free form attack such as "Mouse Sabering" but the problem Kurgan brings is a serious one. The method I suggest may be slightly work intensive and maybe impossible but since I am not realy a skilled modder I wouldn't know.....

Rather than have a wild free for all sytem have one that revolves around attacks to certain area sectors. As in trying to cut head. Before the attack finishes one could "Change" lines (sectors) or feint.

A parry in the correct area would stop it...this probably would have an issue with lag....

But all this control could make the system very complicated and counter intuitive...so I provide another idea...

why not make the fighting system a bit more simplistic. ...

probably my favorite way to saber in any othe Jedi Knight games is the Mod for Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, SBX.

Using two combat buttons and directional keys SBX managed to make atleast two types of attacks to all sectors of the body and keep the system simplistic and intuitive. Maybe parry could me made into a third button. What matters most about a combat system is it isn't cheap and it feels natural. SBX managed to do this. Maybe it is best to add an alternate fire, change pary to a separate key, and make saber throw a seperate force power. I am not reccomending using the exact moves, but maybe a two button combat system. Finnaly, I dislike the slow style and maybe it needs to, or all the styles, rather than adjust speed or damage, have differant moves...this would be a large undertaking..but I think it is for the best...

I would like an explanation why the heavy style does more damage...you are holding a lightsaber, somthing that cuts through metal like a knife through hot butter why would you need strength to mortaly wound somone?

Kurgan
06-15-2004, 05:35 AM
Fair enough, but as to your last comment, if we follow that rational then all saber hits should be equally lethal.

Think about it. ; )


As to SBX, you should provide some more information for folks that aren't familiar with it... (like links to the mod, videos, etc).

Gotaiken
06-15-2004, 06:49 AM
With this saber control method there is no need for the lightsaber stance button, also this allows you guys to make the lightsaber stance button something else. All stances and attacks are readily available at anytime with this setup :cool: . It also shouldnt be that hard to implement gives maxium control with minimum effort, other than the buffer the tap attacks need its pretty good ;) .

Single Saber

1. Tap attack (weak) = Blue stance attacks, for combo just tap attack plus the direction

Problem = gonna need to buffer the attacks so that you can set up the next attack during the current attack's animation or make it so that you dont have to perfectly time the taps in relation to the ending of the previous attack animation

2. Hold attack (medium) = Yellow stance attacks, there is no problem

3. Attack plus secondary attack (heavy) = Red stance attacks

Dual Saber

1. Tap attack (weak) = Blue stance attacks, problem same as single blue, btw the moment you use another type of attack the second saber will automatically switch on (if keshire can make it so that only the main hand done in the attack is shown then the blue stance wont be needed :rolleyes: )

2. Hold attack (medium) = Normal Dual attacks

3. Attack plus secondary attack (heavy) = Spinning dual attacks

Staff

1. Tap attack (weak) = Yellow stance attack, dealt with like dual blue

2. Hold attack (medium) = Normal staff attack

3. Attack plus secondary attack (heavy) = Spinning staff attacks

All sabers

Tap Secondary attack before attack (plus direction) = Turning system

Tap Secondary attack during attack = Cancel attack

Hold Secondary attack during attack = Faking system

Gotaiken
06-15-2004, 07:07 AM
btw if keshire can make those 7 animations ;) we can make that the "blue" stance for the dual, and since staff has some extra animations left over we can make both the staff and dual have yellow and blue apart from the normal stance and give them a one sided stance altogether.

Since the staff can be animated with a onesided on either end using staff animations, and dual blue can use the tavion and desann stances we can defintely make it work. :D The only thing stopping that from happening is the duals needing 7 attacks :eek: . So it would be like this.

Dual

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Normal attack but with one saber

Hold Attack (medium) = Normal attack with both sabers

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = Dual Spinning attacks

Dual One Sided

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Tavion

Hold Attack (medium) = Tavion Spinning Attacks

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = Desann

Staff

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Second set of staff spinning attacks (for example downright to right, it is diffrent then right to right)

Hold Attack (medium) = Normal Staff attacks

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = First set of staff spinning attacks

Staff One Sided

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Staff one sided non dominant side attacking (saber will switch which side is active depending on which side is the non-dominant of the attack, for example in the overhead right attack the left side is the dominant attacking side while in the overhead left its the opposite, the side would automatically switch to the NON-dominant side since its the weak attack, depending on how your attacking, btw this would look amazing :cool: )

Hold Attack (medium) = Staff one sided Dominant side attacking (saber will switch which side is active depending on which side is the dominant of the attack, for example in the overhead right attack the left side is the dominant attacking side while in the overhead left its the opposite, the side would automatically switch depending on how your attacking, btw this would look amazing :cool: )

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = Yellow or red whichever you prefer

razorace
06-15-2004, 01:47 PM
First off, this doesn't really have anything to do with the topic you yourself started since it doesn't even mention mouse sabering.

Secondly, this would require a lot of work to impliment since JKA doesn't have a key buffer.

Finally, noone would like it since it would lag the controls. And you already know how much people have bitched when I reduced the saber animation speed by 25% - 50%.

Gotaiken
06-15-2004, 07:28 PM
1. by saber control methods i meant anything changing how you control the saber, mouse saberering was an example.

2. I really dont see how people wouldnt like it, and i thought about it, you dont need to buffer anything :D just make it so that the weak attacks (the tap ones) dont have any cool down time so that you can combo into the next attack no matter what.

3. This system easily ups the amount of control that you have by A LOT ;) , you can go into any attack at anytime in any order with ease, its really a win win situation :rolleyes: , and im pretty sure that no one would whine about it. It wouldnt lag the controls you wouldnt need to lower the saber speeds. As long as the weak attacks have no cool down time which they shouldnt, you have a sound system ;) .

Dbl90
06-15-2004, 09:59 PM
Wow....a lot can of replies posted in less than 24 I will give the SBX link now....

http://sbx.newcollective.org/

Gotaiken
06-15-2004, 11:54 PM
which idea are you refering to

Dbl90
06-16-2004, 01:55 AM
The link is for the "SBX" method of using the two button controls.

On the other hand I would perfer the method I suggested first , not the "SBX". The perferred method involves changing lines or sectors..if it is possible....

May I ask....don't the DL-44 and the bowcaster, to quote razorace "have a key buffer."??

If not I think it would be a good thing to try and make a key buffer anyway. A key buffer could have many uses...

Gotaiken
06-16-2004, 02:44 AM
yeah, and by using 2 buttons you can access all the saber styles without ever having to change, which adds more tactics strategy skill and control to the mod.

PerfectJamie
06-16-2004, 04:38 AM
I really really think that there should be an ETM style lock on (I know, third time I requested this) and mabe the saber moves (animations) could be more accurate, such as when you push forward (up) and the attack button then you would do a kind of a uppercut strike then mabe if you push back (down) and the attack button then you would do a horizontal slash and all this could be combined to have a bit of a free saber style

mabe another method that could be cool is make the secondary fire a different attack, and by combining the primary fire attacks and the secondary fire attacks (more fancy moves) to produce cool combos, it is alot of animation but it might be cool.

BTW I am still annoyed that obiwan was moved to the Xbox, does anyone know if the PC version ever got a beta or something that is playable by the fans?

JediLiberator
06-16-2004, 01:48 PM
What you folks mights want to consider if you used mouse sabering is to have a kind of power meter. Kind of like when you play golf pc games. What you have is an attack button that you hold down to swing your saber. As soon as you push down on attack the meter rises up(really quickly) and then if you hit an opponent the damage you do is based off your meter. This power meter would only stay high a short while, which means you cant constantly swing your saber around like a madman. The power meter would drop down and you would have to release the attack button in order to make another strong swing. Otherwise your weapon wont do much damage. Also, whatever direction you swing the weapon in your body and the camera follows, since it makes sense that you footwork should match the strike you're making. That way you don't have to worry about turning a person as well as swing the weapon.

Gotaiken
06-17-2004, 07:58 PM
How about this then, so razor doesnt need to buffer.

Primary Attack = Medium Attack

Secondary Attack = Blue attack

Primary+Secondary Attack Tap = Melee

Primary+Secondary Attack Held = Heavy Attack

Lightsaber Switch, Tap/Hold While Moving In A Direction, not attacking = Turn

Lightsaber Switch, Tap While attacking = Cancel Attack

Lightsaber Switch, Hold while attacking = Fake, after the fake is initiated directional buttons move into the diffrent fakes, the button no longer needs to be held and pressing the attack button will result in an attack determined by the direction = Fake system.

By making the lightsaber switch button f, on the normal asdw setup, and by making it so that you remain in fake whether or not you are holding the lightsaber switch button and until you tap/hold attack again, you can effectively make this setup quite easy as well as intuitive.

If fake is not held unless light saber switch is held then you have a problem, people wont be able to press all the asdw keys while holding f, but with it held even after fake initiated you have a fault proof system.

With this setup you dont have to do any buffers, and you can still access fakes, feints, and turns easily. You have access to all attacks of any style at anytime and because of this the lightsaber button is not needed, you can perform melee attacks and what have you, perfect.

Dbl90
06-18-2004, 12:08 AM
Seems like it could work. I like it. There are plenty of ways to change the ideas of they don't work but come out with a very simmilar system....although I would map out the attacks slightly differantly on the keypad Gotaiken is heading in the right direction. The other ideas in this thread are interesting too. I'd like to see what Razor or Kurgan has to say about it....

Kurgan
06-18-2004, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by PerfectJamie

BTW I am still annoyed that obiwan was moved to the Xbox, does anyone know if the PC version ever got a beta or something that is playable by the fans?

I never heard a thing about it, but that would certainly be interesting. I'm assuming if such a thing existed though it would be considered "leaked code" and therefore be illegal to possess...

It would also by definition be unfinished, but since the PC version sounded like a much better game (unless all those missing features were not actually implemented in any way) than what the Xbox version ended up being.

keshire
06-18-2004, 03:00 AM
Ok since I'm being pressured into putting in my two cents here I go.

The current combo system works fine. Don't break whats not broken.

But when you start messing with that first layer of attacks your going to break the combo system. This stuff is all setup so that it isn't easy to change.

You also can't mix attacks from different styles as there are no transitions to account for it. So mapping the styles so you can switch styles midattack isn't a good idea.

Also your all basically taking away the block button. Which everybody has wanted and expressed their desire over for quite some time. It also gives you a level of control that you can't get with the base game.

With the new blocking system Razor put in coupled with the anims I did for it. You can giude the block to where you want it to be. Unlike the base game. because you have the visual clues neccessary to account and correct where its headed. Think an auto-target version of Vsim. But its related to how your body is positioned. Not how you swing the mouse.

The block button should have its own style too. dodge! without the meter. As since you'll be dodging you can't send the person into a parry or counter attack. Which should make up for it not having a meter.

So this is what I'd like to see.

primary-attack
secondary-block/dodge
primary+secondary-Grabs and melee

its simple. with that setup you can go about making your timing based rules without complicating the sytem or breaking anything.

Sword fighting is all about offense and defense and in order to have a realistic system you need control over both. BUT you also have to account for reflexes, lag, and balance.

Dbl90
06-18-2004, 03:44 AM
I see what you are saying. The intent was never to take out the block button but to slightly alter the control scheme so there was a primary and secondary attack. All I realy want to see is one attack preferably more to each area and knowing which side you are going to hit. So I know if my attack is going right to left or left to right. Somthing else I'd like to see, is better dodging as in rolling to the side. I'd like to make it esier to make it strafe around the opponent...

keshire
06-18-2004, 03:54 AM
All I realy want to see is one attack preferably more to each area and knowing which side you are going to hit. So I know if my attack is going right to left or left to right.

The current sytem does that. That is what the combo moves do. Take a look at the individual moves in both code and modview. their all labeled by what direction they go and all mesh together.

Somthing else I'd like to see, is better dodging as in rolling to the side.

Razor has auto-dodge to roll in the opposite direction of the attack.

I'd like to make it esier to make it strafe around the opponent...

Tell me, give me examples of how strafing is a valid movement?

walk strafe maybe. But I have a feeling your refering to run strafe. Strafing is not used in swordplay or even realistic gunplay at all. No one does that. The chance of tripping over your own feet are enormous unless you aren't moving quickly at all. The only other strafe type movement I can think of is the sideways hop that football players do. But circle strafing is the bane of realism. And is only still availabel in games due to the outcry that would happen if you put in realistic human based movement.

Irimi-Ai
06-18-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by keshire
primary-attack
secondary-block/dodge
primary+secondary-Grabs and melee

its simple. with that setup you can go about making your timing based rules without complicating the sytem or breaking anything.


Great idea Keshire. It's concise, comprehensive, and controllable. That kind of system gets my vote.

Irimi-Ai

Gotaiken
06-18-2004, 11:21 PM
Actually i proposed this idea since razor said that with the new blocking system in effect he wants the blocking button gone. further more, attacks from diffrent styles dont need to transition. None of what I proposed messes up anything anymore then using the normal system would, it just adds more control, intuitivity and variety.

Adding more control the saber = more skill application = better sabering.

Other thing, you are putting toooooooo much priority on melee attacks, the game is about sabering not hand fighting, adding more control to the saber should be the very first priority, the way the game is melee moves will never be the main thing, sorry.

It makes more sense to give more control to saber fighting, and the best way to do that is first start by making all saber styles accessible at any moment at any time. Turning and faking and feinting are also priorities. Melee and throws simply arent going to be spectacular with this engine.

Blocks dont need a button with your new animations, dodge never needed a button, melee and grab are still button controlled with my setup, plus you have the ability and variety of throwing any attack into the mix at anytime.

Gotaiken
06-18-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Irimi-Ai
Great idea Keshire. It's concise, comprehensive, and controllable. That kind of system gets my vote.

Irimi-Ai

umm so is this

primary = normal (i.e. yellow)
secondary = weak (i.e. blue)
primary +secondary tap = melee
primary+secondary hold = heavy attack (i.e. red swings)


This not only adds more control but promotes more intuitivity.

keshire
06-19-2004, 12:46 AM
Either way I don't much care. I'm just an animator and its up to whoever does coding how they want to do the system.

So arguing with me is irrelevant.

And as for the unarmed and melee system. I'll do what I please with it in hopes of actually making it something useful. And I'm not to confident you quite know whats possible with the engine.

And if Razor doesn't want to use it it'll still be a part of OJP which means its useable by whoever wants it and not exclusive which is my whole purpose for being with OJP.

Dbl90
06-22-2004, 03:10 AM
Now that I actualy have time to check this thread....I see your point in strafing is valid. Even the little "sideways hop" would be fun. I believe there would be nothing more satisfying than standing there as somone goes to do a red dfa on you...briefly stepping to the side, only a foot or two. And as they land finish them.

kusanagi
06-25-2004, 10:27 PM
I like the idea Gotaiken was proposing; using primary and secondary attack to represent strong medium and fast saber. but no the holding/tapping method thou, primary-medium/secondary-fast/primay+secondary-strong should be enough, melee attacks should b made as special moves instead.
but to add control to the sabering system you really should first make every single one of saber attack consistent. regardless of how the saber is controlled, if you want the saber combat to be skill based than you'll need to make sure that when a player apply his/her skill he/she would get the results he/she expected, which isn't the case right now. for example the system is using the keyboard to control the direction of the attack, but the mouse look also effect the direction of the saber swing. having two control over one attack makes the whole sabering system very inaccurate, eg if you opponet's doing a overhead swing while moving the mouse left or right, then suddenly the attack has horizontal range instead of just vertical, so you c you opponent doing a vertical attack, you have the skill that tells you you can counter it by strafing to the side, only to get hit b/c the attack have these horizontal range that it shouldn't have... crap i wrote too much again...what im suggesting is to make all the attacks like the light lunge, in which the direction and the movement of the attack is locked, but instead of locking the view, the player should be able to look around, like in splinter cells where the view isn't locked to where sam fisher is looking

razorace
06-26-2004, 02:03 AM
So, basically, you are suggesting that we lock the mouse view because it lets you move an attack into a player? what the crap?! Would you like us to remove the movement keys as well since they can be used to do the same thing?!

Secondly, please use paragraphs. They make things easier on the eyes.

kusanagi
06-29-2004, 12:00 AM
razorace:
no not locking the mouse view...just make it so the mouse view doesn't affect the model, just imagine doing a backslash, and during the move, the player can move the camera angles via the mouse but the model doesn't actually spin with the camera

razorace
06-29-2004, 06:58 AM
Oh, ok. Now that makes more sense.

The under lying issue is the way the damage is dealt. Ideally you could have it be based on off impact speed alone but we might not be able to get accurate impact surface data for the same reasons why the hit detection is weird.

AJL
07-14-2004, 08:57 AM
My opinions on saber...

1. There should be only two (normal) saber styles (Fast/Strong)
(Blue/Yellow) and that yellow should be little bit faster than it is
normally (not all moves but some which looks too slow for that
weightless lightsaber...)

2. Saber should always make lots of damage... No matter if you
use fast style attacks, strong attacks or just hit with idle saber.
Different styles/moves should mostly affect to strength of the
attack... (how easy it is to block it...)

3. There should be no unblockable moves... Powerfull attacks
should have higher change to knock away the enemy saber, or
disarm or knockdown the guy...

4. Saber moves should be pretty fast but otherwise the combat
should be slowed down... After normal blocking both attackers
and defenders sabers should usually returns back to idle and
maybe some small delay sometimes before either guy can make
new attack moves... (but when you succeed to send enemy to
knockaway anim or such then you should be able to continue
directly to somekind of special finishing move...)

5. Long special saber moves should be either removed or made
so that you can stop any time...

Greiver
07-15-2004, 07:02 AM
doesnt ny body here play console games in which combos and stuff can be created in push simple button combos and can make for awsome looking fights only problem i can see with a system like that is you would need an extra button for blocking preferrably on a mouse(this is presuming most people use 2 button wheel mice)

left click=blue style
right click = medium style
shift as block

and combos could be stuff like
shift,left,left,right,left

that would make the game more interactive more enjoyable and stuff but would drasticly change code

[post inspired by ninja gaiden, best game i've ever played on xbox, with cool looking and difficult gameplay for console cant go past it]

Gotaiken
07-15-2004, 04:38 PM
I whole hartedly agree with the both of you, we need to make this game more skillful and fast at the same time.

Sadly however, I dont believe that this is the direction that the creators want to go with this mod.

Dbl90
07-19-2004, 03:35 PM
Well, now that I finnaly have a functioning comp again...I just realy never got around to fixing it, I assume I should be posting again now that I can access the net in places other than in public libaries.

I've liked most of the ideas in the thread up to now and let me reiterate my views. First of all the notion the harder you hit with a saber the more damage it does is somwhat crazy. If a saber can easily cut through metal, like a knife though butter, why can't it do the same with a person.

Since everyone has such a problem with implementing a system that allows use of all styles simultaniously, why not totally change the systems so all moves do the same amount of damage, are possibly just as fast, but from style to style they are differant.

Another possibility (I don't know how impossible it is) is that block can be implemented as somthing within a style. So even though blue does less damage it will get a higher bonus to block because it is faster.

Also, I'd like to propose "Death to the Katas" or atleast a great change to them. I find them to have limited use in a non laming context. Maybe what is used for a kata can become block and the seperate block button can become somthing else. Such as a small combat "hop" rather than a rediculously large jump.

Ultimately I think the saber system can be greatly improved and I'm glad to be back helping. Hopefully my comp won't die at random again.

Greiver
07-22-2004, 08:42 AM
as far as im concerned it needs to require more skill and speed to saber combat the mouse sabering could be good if there were some limitations but, i dont think Keshire and razor could be stuffed animating and coding that but it could be useful and a fair bit easyier for blocking

i personally prefere console sword games cause there hard and fast till you work'em out but then they get easy but still fast

here's my new idea
one button does vertical the other horezontal strike together plus direction = diagonal the direction of mouse movement. this could also be inluenced by the players movement at the time i.e moving forward vertical attack does the chop the movement backwards does lunge or vise-versa. i can see a problem with this which is that youd have to have a moves list of some description and it would be difficult to code but animation wise it would need very little, maybe a few extra moves

anywhich way the combat turns out as long as it is faster and more player intensive the sabercombat system will be better that it is now(come on raven what were you thinking, a mash fest... thanks for a great game)

Everybody keep up the good work and ideas and OJP will be the best mod for a long time




THE MODDING COMMUNITY OWNS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gotaiken
07-24-2004, 01:01 AM
griever i was thinking about that, i think that that would be the best setup for the type of game this is

Greiver
07-25-2004, 01:26 AM
well it's not the best of ideas it still needs alot of refining to the point where it could be awsome, wise man once say "great minds think alike"

saber blocking- altho i havent tested it cause my cop of JA went all currupt n stuff and therefor dont no how it works at the moment my suggestion for it is to have it so it blocks the way you turn you mouse while holding block

Saber OFFENSE- warrior once said "the best defence is a good offense" and "you dont fight for glory you fight to win" .... ideas to improove previous idea
-remove gay spinny attacks
-add more reasonable attacks
-block-counter attacks
-COMBOS!!!!!! not katas
-more stringability
-melee in saber combat, i.e get to close elbow
-cheep shots
-ability to stun enemys
-new animations
-constant damage:sabers cut just about anything and therefor are leathal
-no run run run in combat or huge jumps cause that = suiside it combat

thats all i can think of for now

kusanagi
07-25-2004, 01:54 AM
being a hardcore console game addict, I like the idea that griever has, it would be a good idea if there is a movelist of sort in JA, outlining each moves adv/disadv, but currently each individual saber attack in JA, apart from the sideswipes which covers a larger horizontal range, has little to no differences...
most of the time you'll just execute a sabermove simply because you just happen to be walking that direction, the move itself has little importance.

on a side note, I'll like to know how JA actually handles the inputs of different moves; is it by the actual key strokes or the veleocity and direction the player is actually travelling, regardless of key strokes?? eg there are occasions where while Im walking up a slope and as I press forward and attack I end up doing a DFA instead of a normal overhead chop, even though I didn't press jump. and if thats the case would it mean inputs such as double tapping one direction would not be valid in JA??

razorace
07-25-2004, 03:22 PM
JKA doesn't have a key buffer so things like double tapping would be complicated to impliment.

Secondly, I don't agree with this current line of thinking. It's way too much like a fighter game. Like it or not, your combos are basically katas just with more complicated button presses.

What's the point of the two button control system, what are you gaining that you don't have with the keyboard directional system other than the fact that it's more complicated?

Greiver
07-26-2004, 01:33 AM
razor i have to disagree with you on the fact that combos are more difficult katas because a kata has set moves a combo is just a combination of moves and are rearly the same combination for 2 different people a kata is the same for everyone i was probly not to specific in the way i said it i actually ment reasonable chainage of moves not the insain chainage it has now

as for key buffering JA does have it but not for directions or at least im pretty sure it does because it has it for wall jump and i think some attacks

yes my ideas are inclined toward fighting games but that is only because the fighting games style is used in console 3d action platform games for example look at ninja Gaiden which uses a similar control style as i have outlined

the 2 button control give you a larger human eliment and stops most acidental moves for example your running at you enemys who are close together you hit the horezontal attack to hit them all or the vertical to hit just 1 mostlikey killing him.

i take into account that no gets payed for what they are doing and therefor probly up to doing extreem amounts of work on anything but those of the modding community like razor keshire azyme and Renegade just to name a few they work as if they get payed for it some even spend money on it , what im trying to say is that people like that deserve alot of respect which they get but they need more, i thank you for making a good game better and spending you free time working for people who show you little respect for that i appaude you

razorace
07-26-2004, 03:48 AM
Well, keep in mind that just making something more complicated and difficult doesn't make it better. I could make the most difficult game ever but there'd be no fun in that.

Anyway, I object to the concept of combos in the lightsaber combat game. It just doesn't make sense, either from a realistic or movie standpoint, to be able to continue beating on someone with a lightsaber by using a "combo".

Secondly, combos aren't partially fair in most implimentations simply because the other player can't do jack after the combo has been started. This is fine when playing a stupid computer opponent but against other players it turns the game into a contest of who can land the first strike in their combos. It's very cheesy.

Also, thanks for the appraise. :)

kusanagi
07-26-2004, 09:13 AM
ok i agree with the objection to combos, most 3rd person game involving combos will usually lead to a boring hack'n slash affair. but i think the line of thinking that we r having now is to make saber combat more moves oriented. fighting game engines more or less out line each attack as a indiviual move where as JA more or less blurs everything together.

and yea u said it grevious these modders deserves much more respect than they r given and i apologizes for me and everyone else in this forum who dont know sqaut about modding, mapping, scripting or skinning but still rant on and on about our so call ideas and expect u to follow them

Greiver
08-01-2004, 10:12 AM
im kinda running out of ideas that are plausable for jedi academy so hears more on a previous idea

leftclick = horezontal rightclick = vertical both = diagonal
all saberstyles swing the same speed but the windup time is longer for red stance shorter for blue, sabers are deadly i.e you dont block you lose alot of health possibly death
stances from most useful to least: red, yellow, blue the more useful a saber stance it should be more expensive ie red cost 2 blue cost 20 or something similar

saber defence more expensive in general so you cant have full attack and defence with saber so gunners can kill you

more saber offense = more chainability but less defence
more saber defence = more defence against gunners but less against saber users

hope you like this better razor

Kyle Kelasheski
08-19-2004, 10:19 PM
Hello All,

Just downloaded OJP for the first time, and intend to try it out very shortly. I'm quite interested to see how the lightsaber combat system works out, as I'm extremely keen on using a combat system that is highly cinematic, meaning that it's accurate to what we've seen in the FILMS.

First, for those who don't know me (which is probably most of you), a brief introduction to the work I've done for various modding communities. I've made numerous idea contributions that were seriously considered/implemented to the following mods: Obi-Wan TC for JK1 (not yet released), and ForceMod 3 for JKJA. I've done simple coding/created simple mods for the following: Infiltration TC for UT, and ForceMod 3. I did a TREMENDOUS amount of drawing, graphic & map designs for the Obi-Wan TC. I have done extensive alpha and beta testing for the O-W TC and FM 3. There's more that I’ve done, but that's the core of it so far. I'm saying all of this just so it's known that while my skills for the “hands on” modifying of games is limited, I try to think things through thoroughly, and I wholeheartedly support modders and the hard work they do for free simply because they love something so much that they want to share it.

Now, that that’s out of the way, I’ve spent several hours combing through the forums, and have yet to come across an extensive exploration on the concept of implementing the effects of exhaustion and fatigue on game play. I’m basically going to post what I’ve sent to Dynasty, who’s the team leader for the O-W TC. Do with it what you will. I think it could have exciting and very cinematic possibilities. How the details spelled out below correlate to what I think we see in the films is explained near the end, as a summary. The numbers and figures I use were ones that I calculated for JK1, and may very well need revising for JKA. Nevertheless, here’s what I pitched to Dynasty…



Death by Exhaustion Saber System (DESS): The longer a Jedi fights, the more tired he becomes, and this affects a Jedi’s ability to fight effectively. Eventually, this ever-increasing state of energy depletion starts affecting their ability to defend themselves. Thus the longer one fights, the lower one’s ability becomes to parry attacks. Game play wise, exhaustion can be delivered to an opponent by “hitting” them with the saber. Note: the subject’s body is not depicted as being actually hit, but rather a successful exhaustion dealing blow is rendered by an animation that shows the opponent’s weapon being batted aside, or their entire body staggers back a few feet (or more, depending on the level of exhaustion; they could even be knocked to the ground) by the force dealt by the attacker’s successful swing or thrust. Saber locks can be used as a sure sign that one of the two combatants is about to receive some energy depletion—the loser of the saber lock WILL have energy drained from his body. Every successful shove back results in a drop of parrying ability: a less powerful success results in a drop of 5% parrying ability in the opponent, and a more successful blow renders a drop of 10%, that is unless the attacker is able to regain some strength by avoiding direct combat for 6 seconds, at which point one “level” of exhaustion is removed due to the Jedi rejuvenating himself during the break from the blistering combat. An experienced combatant will take advantage of the opponent’s temporary weakness, and press his attack. This will either result in a parry, another exhaustion dealing blow, or a hit that will eliminate the opponent by decapitation.

The player has an exhaustion level meter on his HUD. Note that this meter only starts to show energy depletion after the player’s saber is swung or parries an opponent’s saber. From that point forward until there is a break in the swinging/parrying, an invisible clock counts down from 3 seconds; the result being that for every 3 seconds of constant engagement, the player’s exhaustion meter drops by 1 unit. For every 4 units that are counted off, the player’s parrying ability drops by 5%. If a player can remain absolutely still, recovery time is halved to 3 seconds a unit, otherwise it takes 6 seconds of none-engagement time to regain a unit that was lost (this assumes that the Jedi is still running, jumping, and dodging). Every time a successful exhaustion-dealing blow strikes the player’s body, the meter drops by 4 or 8 units (based on how strong the blow was), resulting in a parrying decrease of either 5% or 10%. If the recovery time slows game play too much (due to the player waiting around to regain their strength), then the system could only be applied to fighting only other Force Users.

Other effects of exhaustion: When the player’s energy level reaches 25%, the screen begins to move in a rhythmic “out-of-breath” pattern, and movement is reduced by 15%. When the energy level reaches 10% the Jedi’s movement is reduced a further 25%, and a red filter strobes over the screen, mimicking the effects of a body desperate for oxygen. This would have a tremendous psychological effect on the players, for they’ll know that they’re doomed if they don’t find time to recover soon.

Also, the more exhausted a dueler gets, the greater the effects of further energy draining blows. For example, weak “strikes” result in saber bats that will initially move aside the enemy’s saber by a foot (allowing the enemy to recover his stance in a ¼ of a second, and has no effect on parrying), but when the enemy’s energy level is at 75%, his saber is batted aside by several feet (at which point it takes a half second to regain one’s posture, and for the following second parrying is reduced by 5%). When a saber bat is delivered to an enemy at 50% energy, his arm swings back in a wide arc, requiring ¾ second to regain posture, and for the next second parrying is reduced by 10%. At 25% strength, a saber bat will fling the saber out of the target’s hand—casting it away in a random direction by several feet, and the opponent cannot parry until he finds his saber and Force Pulls it back to him. Likewise, strong “hits” will initially only shove the target’s body back a couple of feet and with no effects on parrying, but if his energy level is at 75% then the shove sends the target’s body back 4-5 feet, and he’ll need ½ a second to regain a fighting posture, and for the following second parrying ability is reduced by 10%. At 50% strength, the target’s body is shoved back the several feet mentioned above, only this time his body stumbles (requiring a full second to regain his posture), and reducing his parrying for the following second by 20%. At 25% strength, the target’s body is shoved back 4-5 feet, and will collapse to the ground, at which point parrying is halved its current value, and it takes 1.5 seconds to stand back up to a fighting posture.

Force Healing will restore only ¼ of the energy that was lost. Resting time will have to make up for the remainder.

I think that there are numerous strengths to the Death by Exhaustion Saber System. First, if one wants the game to appear to be as cinematic as possible, this would be a rewarding solution. Throughout the films, saber battles have not been ones of blades strictly tapping and pulling away from each other, but rather the opponents actively pursue a tactic of forcing their enemy’s saber in a direction that will yield them an opening. The idea of “one hit, one kill (as we see it in the films)” would be preserved, yet the player would be given awards for their combat prowess throughout the duel by being able to visibly determine that they have put their opponent at a physical disadvantage. Since this disadvantage is temporary, and not total, it would increase the adrenaline rush to press forward to try and eliminate the enemy. This, in turn, would lead to the player to having to constantly assess just how much risk he wants to take in pressing home his advantage, for even though his enemy may be caught off guard and growing tired, so too is the player similarly tired. If he gets too careless, or overconfident, the extra risk he takes may yet result in his death. The opponent does not die from multiple hits (as it is in JK now), but rather from fighting to a degree of physical weakness that then opens him up to the one actual killing stroke. A dramatic saber lock would be a sure sign that one of the opponents is about to lose some major strength, and tension would be built waiting to see who the (pre-determined) winner is. I tried describing to you in the past about the “saber following” effect that we see in the films, but when I played the duels in slow motion for yet another analysis, the real nature of what was occurring became apparent to me—throughout the duels the opponents are trying to influence where their enemy’s saber is going. Again, the beauty of this system is that it delivers multiple, believable rewards to the player because whenever a semi-successful “hit” is made on the enemy, there is a corresponding animation that delivers satisfying information to the player to act upon. Of course, all of these exhaustion-dealing blows increase the probability that a death-dealing blow will hit the target.

It also forces the player to seriously consider energy management. Saber dueling is no longer “get behind, hack, and then slash,” but a rather delicate balance of maintaining enough strength combined with enough skill to defeat the enemy. An exciting proposition, to say the least!

It may not even be necessary to have shields at all with this system. A notion that some might perceive to be fairly artificial and forced anyway (when was the last time we saw a living creature in SW running around with an energy vest? That’s what I thought.). Instead, the shield powerups could be replaced with food rations (something that one WOULD find on an enemy), and these would help replenish the Jedi’s energy (by the way, I found out that those little shiny cylinders the Jedi wear on their belts are edible high-energy bars, and once I read that, my head started spinning with the possibilities…). In the big picture, I think that this system adds a tremendous amount of satisfying game play and a tremendous amount of cinematic accuracy at the same time.



That's most of it. What do you think?

Codja X
08-22-2004, 10:02 AM
I'll add my penny's worth as i've had an interest in the saber system for a while now.

I like kusanagi's idea about "padlocking" your opponents - it could work in a very similar fashion to the Zelda game on the n64 - a block button, an attack button and a padlock button for always keeping your in sight.

You'd have normal moves when not "locked" on, but you'd get a whole heap more special moves and combos when you do lock and face your opponent.

I like the "sidestepping" idea as well in a previous post. When not locked you'd move normally - this should make for a more technical fight rather than the barely controllable randomness that is the current saber system.

kusanagi
08-23-2004, 01:28 PM
errrr.... I've had dat padlock idea awhile ago... but now i aint so sure about it...
the locking idea do sound good, but it really doesn't do much in terms of improving the game play; all it does is remove more control from the player and let the targeting be automated.

Khier
08-25-2004, 04:57 AM
People, people, people. I'm going to throw out a little ol' saying here: Keep It Simple Stupid. Now I'm not saying any of you are stupid, but I think most of the ideas presented here are just too damn.... overwhelming and you're all pretty optimistic that the design will be presented exactly how you imagine it if it were to be done in this mod.

Personally, I LIKE Raven's saber combat system, it has enormous amounts of potential. They just kind of forgot to polish it and stuff. :p

What I'd just really like to see are better animations for the current saber styles. When I first experienced the combat in JO, I was thrilled and astonished by how "cool" it was, of course, that novelty wore off in due time but it was still addictive enough to keep me playing multiplayer right through to JA's release in which I switched to JA, of course. However, I have increasingly found that the animations are just.... rather putrid (particularly staff and duals, ewwww. (and don't even get me started on the katas and 'butterfly' moves) ).

I'll confess that I have not played this mod yet, but what I'm hearing about OJP sounds quite good, indeed.

I'd like to see a more cinematic feel to the moves and swings, the kind of stylish stuff seen in the prequel movies, wrist twirls with samurai-like precision and posture. :D

I'm skeptical about how the melee system turns out, but this is only because I was horribly, TERRIBLY disappointed in how Raven handled the melee in JA (as a practitioner of Tae Kwon Do, as well as having a great interest in the martial arts, in general). Ray Park pulled off all those cool moves as Darth Maul because he KNEW what he was doing, being a highly accomplished wushu practicioner. I'm just thinking Raven pulled a bum off the streets, and told him he'd get a sandwich if he did some motion capture. :o

Hmm, I think I just put in my two cents so.......... there you go.

PS- I'm a little inebriated so.........pay no mind to any typing discrepancies or otherwise general drunken babble that might have possibly slipped through.

Isoparm
08-29-2004, 12:19 PM
It will be interesting to see how this episode 3 jedi games uses combo system based light saber moves and choreographed moves from the man himself. What are your thoughts on how that will turn out?