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Master_Keralys
06-15-2004, 12:07 PM
Okay, just a discussion of whether the best-selling game Knights of the Old Republic can be considered canon or not. I'm not as familiar with that particular era of sW history - I know the basics, but have only recently started reading the comics and whatnot set ther - so can someone clear this mystery up for me (Astrotoy7 should no, maybe StarWarsPhreak...)

Sead the Darkes
06-17-2004, 04:52 PM
KotOR is 4000 years before Episode I and 40 years after Exar Kun war. In KotOR Republic is in existence for 20000 years. So in Episode I Republic is 24000 years old. Episode II is 10 after Episode I. Episode III is 2-3 years after Episode II. Episode IV is 20 years after Episode III. Episode V after IV- not certain. Episode VI 1 year after Episode V.

Is that it?

Poggle
06-17-2004, 05:03 PM
i would have thought kotor is canon for that era as it is the first material in that era while exar kun is mentioned little from that era is really in the game so kotor probably can be considered canon.

PR-0927
06-17-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Sead the Darkes
KotOR is 4000 years before Episode I and 40 years after Exar Kun war. In KotOR Republic is in existence for 20000 years. So in Episode I Republic is 24000 years old. Episode II is 10 after Episode I. Episode III is 2-3 years after Episode II. Episode IV is 20 years after Episode III. Episode V after IV- not certain. Episode VI 1 year after Episode V.

Is that it?


What he said. Plus, it has 113 awards, the most awards any game has received (spelling?) in history. Thirty five of the 113 awards are Game of the Year for ____(music, gameplay, graphics, length, etc.).

It is a must play!! KotOR 2 better be good!! I'm gonna get that. KotOR hit me so much with the awesome storyline, it even affected my name: Majin Revan; Revan was a Sith Lord in KotOR.

Oh, and he was...spoiler anyone?:

You are Darth Revan, your memory gets erased by the Jedi Council and the traitorous laser blast from Darth Malak's ship into yours. Basically, nobody knows if Revan turned bad or good, that is why there are two story lines in KotOR: Dark Side and Light Side.

:fett:

Astrotoy7
06-20-2004, 03:11 AM
Hi Keralys, are you back !? if so , welcome back !

KOTOR fits into 2nd level (EU) canon well enough, it makes use of the comics that were published explaining events before and after, indeed, there are numerous references to these events in the game dialogue and the little story tidbits you get during loadup...


Since its highly unlikely GL had any input into KOTOR, and any films will be made about this era, it can reside safely as some as a piece of 'unaissailable' canon, namely 'cause it doesnt involve the films' characters/event.....

mtfbwya

HalfSwedeLarz
06-24-2004, 01:28 AM
is kotor a bad guy?

PR-0927
06-27-2004, 02:54 PM
*Sigh...*

Can't blame you that much, everyone was saying KotOR.

Here you go:


Knights

of

the

Old

Republic

= KotOR


:fett:

HalfSwedeLarz
06-27-2004, 06:50 PM
oh ok are you talking about the game or just kotor in general

PR-0927
06-28-2004, 03:35 PM
LOL!! The game.

:fett:

HalfSwedeLarz
06-29-2004, 12:09 AM
ok then so why is it caled kotor oh i see it its an abreviation like thing

ET Warrior
07-01-2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by HalfSwedeLarz
ok then so why is it caled kotor oh i see it its an abreviation like thing

Sort of like. ANH, or RotJ, or AotC....etc. etc.

HalfSwedeLarz
07-01-2004, 10:22 PM
gotcha does KoTOR take up alot of memory on a computer because i want to get it but my moms computer has only so much memory left from me installing LOTS of games

ZBomber
07-01-2004, 10:36 PM
Let's put it this way, KotOR is 4 discs.....

HalfSwedeLarz
07-01-2004, 10:43 PM
well no wonder it is a big box well i guess ill be installing it on my dads comp besides his is a nicer one

fuzzyfreaker
07-02-2004, 12:30 AM
Here's a little hint:
We. Don't. Care. It's a fun game. Kotor is probably one of my favorite RPG's ever. I've played it 12 times (on my 13th) and every time it's different. Buy It. WHo cares on which computer you buy it on. Buy it.

HalfSwedeLarz
07-02-2004, 12:35 AM
i will can you customize your character?

fuzzyfreaker
07-02-2004, 12:41 AM
yeah, you can. There are 3 different classes in the beginning, Scout, Soldier, and Scoundrel. You can choose male or female, different faces, and later in the game, jedi classes. the jedi classes are Guardian, Sentinal, and cmon, somebody help me... ARGH! What's the last one??!!?

HalfSwedeLarz
07-02-2004, 01:37 AM
jedi knight or master

ET Warrior
07-02-2004, 01:03 PM
Consular.

Igor_Cavkov
07-02-2004, 01:04 PM
BEST GAME EVER! still playing it! for the 2nd time! now im playing for the darkside! and all the time i get to new stuff and new levels i never saw before! even new scenes! awesome! took me 28hours to complete first time!

HalfSwedeLarz
07-02-2004, 07:05 PM
dude that guys in sweden kool i wish my dad would move back to sweden anyway what are all of the disks for?

Igor_Cavkov
07-02-2004, 09:07 PM
LOL well im from Yugoslavia usually.. but i live in sweden with my family.. its cool country! :D back to topic: man cant wait to next KOTOR2!

HalfSwedeLarz
07-02-2004, 10:43 PM
yes it is a cool country and in KotOR can you fly YOUR OWN ship?

fuzzyfreaker
07-03-2004, 05:19 AM
norway's better

Anyway, back on topic, you own a ship, the ebon hawk but you really don't fly it, you just choose where you want to go. The only other actions you preform on the ship are killing gizkas, talking to people, and shooting the laser turrets during those little random space battles.

Funny story: I was in one of those space battles, and they were so dang easy, i decided how long you really have to take out those ships. Anyway, i swiched to my VCD player and popped in A New Hope and watched it. I switched back after the movie, and i was still alive...
(best part about singapore, they have VCD's. Low quality DVD's. 12 bucks U.S each, Original and Legal movies, and they have Star Wars on VCD. Yay!

ET Warrior
07-03-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by HalfSwedeLarz
anyway what are all of the disks for?

....They're what the game data is stored on, you know, you have to use them to install KOTOR.

HalfSwedeLarz
07-03-2004, 06:49 PM
all of them?!

PR-0927
07-03-2004, 08:39 PM
Yes, all of them. The game is not a tiny one. I mean, it is a RPG!! It takes up, like, three gigabytes!!

:fett:

HalfSwedeLarz
07-03-2004, 09:00 PM
is gigabites the highest?i thought it was killabites

El Sitherino
07-03-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by HalfSwedeLarz
is gigabites the highest?i thought it was killabites .... oh. my. gawd. Someone shoot me in the face.


Anyway, I've finally bought KoToR for myself, and Definitely much more fun the second time around.

PR-0927
07-03-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by HalfSwedeLarz
is gigabites the highest?i thought it was killabites


You are joking, right? That is, like, the basics of computers!!

*Sigh...*

It goes: bits, bytes, kilobytes, megabytes, and then gigabytes. One-thousand kilobytes in a megabyte, one-thousand megabytes in a gigabyte. Oh, and I think one-thousand bytes in a kilobyte.

:fett:

HalfSwedeLarz
07-03-2004, 10:44 PM
oh well i just learned something

Jan Gaarni
07-04-2004, 05:18 AM
You are correct, Majin.

The different words mean a certain amount of something.

Kilo means 1 000
Mega means 1 000 000 (1 million)
Giga means 1 000 000 000 (1 billion)
Tera means 1 000 000 000 000 (1 trillion)


Then you have Hecto which means 100, and Deca which means 10, but those arn't used in the computer business to my knowlegde. :)
It's more used in the cooking business. :p

fuzzyfreaker
07-06-2004, 12:35 AM
Then let us cook! And, nobodys made a Terabyte to my knowledge yet... maybe in the (Dum Dum Dum!) FUTURE!!!

ET Warrior
07-06-2004, 12:57 AM
Super Computers deal in Terabytes :dozey:

fuzzyfreaker
07-07-2004, 05:22 AM
wow, that'd hold a heck a lotta games...

Master_Keralys
07-09-2004, 12:44 PM
Hi Keralys, are you back !? if so , welcome back !

KOTOR fits into 2nd level (EU) canon well enough, it makes use of the comics that were published explaining events before and after, indeed, there are numerous references to these events in the game dialogue and the little story tidbits you get during loadup...


Since its highly unlikely GL had any input into KOTOR, and any films will be made about this era, it can reside safely as some as a piece of 'unaissailable' canon, namely 'cause it doesnt involve the films' characters/event.....

mtfbwya

Unfortunately, I'm not back quite yet, I can only bounce in every once in a blue moon. Which is too bad, because I miss it around here...

That's kind of what I figured. The only problem I had was that the Valley of the Sith didn't seem to align correctly with the images we had of it from the comics (even Jedi Academy, which seemed a lot more accurate, at least if I'm remembering correctly). They certainly did a good job of getting the backstory correct up to that point, though. A few other little things bothered me, though I'm not recalling them at the moment, but I think overall the game's pretty safe.

An interesting aside, as well, particularly for the EU nerds out there: The Rakata, if Knights is officially second-level canon on par with the books, comics, etc, could well be the answer to a great number of mysteries. As in, the Maw - which could easily have been assembled by them. As in the Corellian system and Centerpoint itself, which actually seems characteristic of the kind of thing the Rakata seemed to like doing. For that matter, the species that brought the Corellians the hyperdrive in the first place.

Unfortunately, the tidbits I've been hearing about KotOR II would seem to indicate that it will not be canon, as it indicates the Jedi all wiped out except for one (the player character) and that doesn't seem to fit with what we know about the rest of the continuity. But it may, who knows.

I know the timeline; this particular game occurs roughly 3955-3957 years before the battle of Yavin, putting it at about 3925-3927 years before the events of Ep. I. This is taking into account the events of the original Sith War with Exar Kun, which is usually placed with its conclusion at 3996 years before the Battle of Yavin.

Last note, especially for Astrotoy7: did anyone else notice Canderous Ordo's reference in one of his war stories to an early Yuuzhan Vong probe to the galaxy? It was in his story about the situation in the ice asteroid belt.

PR-0927
07-09-2004, 05:04 PM
Especially for Astrotoy 7?!?! I'm the biggest New Jedi Order Series geek!!

And yes, I did see that, it is the Yuuzhan Vong, just go here:

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=131291

:fett:

ET Warrior
07-10-2004, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Majin Revan
Especially for Astrotoy 7?!?! I'm the biggest New Jedi Order Series geek!!

Uh oh, you've infringed on his geek honor. There will be hell to pay now:rolleyes:


:p

fuzzyfreaker
07-12-2004, 01:38 PM
Fight Fight Fight Fight Fight!

Hmmm... I dunno, we don't know much about the Sith Era .remember in ep II they sya there hasn't been a war in a millenia so it's possible that there could of been a time where there wern't many jedi left. Until i see more of the game. I dunno if it's canon or not.

Astrotoy7
07-19-2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Majin Revan
Especially for Astrotoy 7?!?! I'm the biggest New Jedi Order Series geek!!

And yes, I did see that, it is the Yuuzhan Vong, just go here:

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=131291

:fett:

he he he .. Its probably that Keralys doesnt know you Majin,,, he and I have had many EU and NJO discussions in the past, we are on a similar wavelength so he referred to me because he knew I would be interested in such a tidbit had I not noticed it :D

ET, although you may not approve of the NJO, your binary watch still allows you entry into the geek honours system :D

mtfbwya

HalfSwedeLarz
07-19-2004, 09:17 PM
WHAT IS CANON?!

Cheech Marin
07-19-2004, 09:26 PM
Stuff that is considered to be "real" in the Star Wars Universe.

HalfSwedeLarz
07-19-2004, 09:36 PM
ok so why is it called canon?

Cheech Marin
07-19-2004, 09:48 PM
Uh, I dunno. Any of you smart people care to help me out with this?

HalfSwedeLarz
07-19-2004, 10:00 PM
nobody on LFN is actually smart

Cheech Marin
07-19-2004, 10:53 PM
OK, you just said there's no smart people on LucasForums. Does that include you as well? :D

ET Warrior
07-20-2004, 01:48 AM
And here I come to correct you, some people here ARE smart.

can·on1

A secular law, rule, or code of law.

a. An established principle: the canons of polite society.
b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.

It is called canon because that is the word in the English language to describe it.

Canon is the official story of Star Wars. It cannot be refuted in a discussion about star wars, while anything that is not canon can be.

Jan Gaarni
07-20-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
And here I come to correct you, some people here ARE smart.



It is called canon because that is the word in the English language to describe it.

Canon is the official story of Star Wars. It cannot be refuted in a discussion about star wars, while anything that is not canon can be.
Let me add to that:

It cannot be refuted, unless it is obviously incorrect.

That doesn't happen alot though and is usually just visually. The mistakes are not intentional.

Astrotoy7
07-20-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
And here I come to correct you, some people here ARE smart.

It is called canon because that is the word in the English language to describe it.

Canon is the official story of Star Wars. It cannot be refuted in a discussion about star wars, while anything that is not canon can be.

the term 'canon' in a literary context is derived from the concept of identifying which of the Holy scriptures are accepted as as sacred and authentic texts, and accepted into the 'Biblical canon'.

in the SW universe therefore, canonization, allows for the categorisation of the varying levels of works, be they literary, cinemetic etc according to their relative 'authenticity' in the SW universe. First Level canon is defined by anything which George Lucas has written and or directly stated.....namely the 3 films. Alot of the EU subsequently falls into 2nd level and below canon..... eg. GL approving that chewie and anakin die inthe NJO is second level canon. the KOTOR comics and games are even a lower level, as they have no direct correlation with GL but have used concepts of the 1st/2nd etc levels of canon to create works that fall into the SW expanded universe.....

mtfbwya

HalfSwedeLarz
07-20-2004, 02:37 PM
knowledge, smartness, and wisdom are all different so just because you answered that doesnt me you people are 'smart'

El Sitherino
07-20-2004, 03:29 PM
... you know, the technique to make friends is being NICE, not insulting. :)

HalfSwedeLarz
07-20-2004, 04:58 PM
i try to be nice but when someone makes me md its like a chain reaction

Jan Gaarni
07-20-2004, 05:36 PM
From Dr. Curtis Saxton site (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/) (a guy that should know this better than any of us :) ) :
______________________

3. Continuity

3.1 What is official?

Story and situational elements of any STAR WARS product licensed by Lucasfilm, plus materials integral to the creation of those products (eg. design notes used in the production of the movies).
"Official" status is not a matter of personal opinion.

3.2 What is "canon"?

The non-negotiable "facts" of the STAR WARS universe and its history. All canon material is official. Most official material is not canonical. According to Lucasfilm's continuity editors, writing in STAR WARS Insider #23, canon is defined as:

`Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations.

"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion.
______________________

In more recent history (Star Wars Insider #68) the DK* Visual Dictionaries, Incredible Cross-Sections (2 of which has been written by Dr. David West Reynolds, the AotC Incredible Cross-Section by Dr. Curtis Saxton himself), and the Locations books have also been canonized.

The order goes:
Movies
Script
Movie Novels
Radio Drama
DK Visual Dictionaries, Incredible Cross-Sections, Locations books (Inside the World Of books)

In that order, highest priority at the top.


*DK = Dorling Kindersley (http://us.dk.com/Search/QuickSearchFrame?id=star%20wars)

Astrotoy7
07-21-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by HalfSwedeLarz
knowledge, smartness, and wisdom are all different so just because you answered that doesnt me you people are 'smart'

*refrains*

mtfbwya

ET Warrior
07-21-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
the term 'canon' in a literary context is derived from the concept of identifying which of the Holy scriptures are accepted as as sacred and authentic texts, and accepted into the 'Biblical canon'.

:xp: I didn't figure he needed the HISTORY of the word :p

HalfSwedeLarz
07-21-2004, 07:25 PM
I am very confused now.

Cheech Marin
07-21-2004, 08:21 PM
This is coming from the guy that thinks we're all dumb. :rolleyes:

HalfSwedeLarz
07-21-2004, 09:30 PM
NO. I dont think you are dumb just not smart.

ET Warrior
07-21-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by HalfSwedeLarz
NO. I dont think you are dumb just not smart.

:eyeraise:

And...YOU are the smart one here? :rolleyes:

Jan Gaarni
07-22-2004, 04:50 AM
Stay on topic.

Too close, can't manouver.

Stay on topic!

Closing up.
Aaaaarrghhhh..........*


Larz, if you go by what I posted you should know enough about the differance between offical Star Wars and canon Star Wars. :)

Sivy
07-22-2004, 05:33 AM
kotOR is definitely not canon, it is a part of the EU.
all EU is non-canon.

the simple definition of what canon is - if George Lucas wrote it.

the only EU that comes close to being canon is the Clone Wars cartoon as although it was not written by GL, he did have a lot of input into it. but even on www.starwars.com it's under EU.

Astrotoy7
07-22-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Siv
kotOR is definitely not canon, it is a part of the EU.
all EU is non-canon.

the simple definition of what canon is - if George Lucas wrote it.

the only EU that comes close to being canon is the Clone Wars cartoon as although it was not written by GL, he did have a lot of input into it. but even on www.starwars.com it's under EU.

damnit Sivksi! Now that you are a mod I cant use my brutally informative sarcasm against you lest I be bated and flamed :p

The NJO 'The Final Prophecy' came with an cdrom, which included alot of info about NJO and its developmemt.....it confirms these two FACTS :*as I mentioned above*
-GLs input into chewie dying
-GLs input into anakin dying. He actually recommended that anakin solo be killed off rather than jacen solo, as originally written,....

-and spare a poor thought for "Splinter of a Minds Eye" replete with strange continuity problems, it was 100% GLs idea, and now holds a dubious respectability in the EU......

so, 1st level canon in itself has its grey areas. Spare a thought also for the SW Holiday Special, even the Ewok Adventure movies :(

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni
07-22-2004, 12:54 PM
I feel forced to repeat something from my previous (or next previous or whatever :D ) post here:

"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion!

That means, you and I don't decide what is canon or not, LucasFilm Ltd. does. ;)

KotOR definatly isn't canon, no.
In fact, nothing LucasArts makes is canon. The fact the company is Lucas owned is irrelavent. :)

Astrotoy7
07-25-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
I feel forced to repeat something from my previous (or next previous or whatever :D ) post here:

"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion!

That means, you and I don't decide what is canon or not, LucasFilm Ltd. does. ;)



indeed. But has Lucasfilm ever published a definitive listing of what is canon or not.....?? eg SOTE = canon ? NJO = canon etc

he he he This discussion has been a raging flamefest like an out of control bushfire at TFN forums for years.... this is comparatively civil :D

mtfbwya

fuzzyfreaker
07-27-2004, 08:33 PM
I find Kotor, the EU Books, and some games to be canon. Most Comics, not canon. and Larz, STFU!

PR-0927
07-28-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker
I find Kotor, the EU Books, and some games to be canon. Most Comics, not canon. and Larz, STFU!

Word.

:fett:

ET Warrior
07-28-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker
I find Kotor, the EU Books, and some games to be canon.

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion!

That means, you and I don't decide what is canon or not, LucasFilm Ltd. does.

KotOR definatly isn't canon, no.
In fact, nothing LucasArts makes is canon. The fact the company is Lucas owned is irrelavent

Jan Gaarni
07-28-2004, 05:45 PM
Word

:D



Originally posted by Astrotoy7
indeed. But has Lucasfilm ever published a definitive listing of what is canon or not.....?? eg SOTE = canon ? NJO = canon etc

he he he This discussion has been a raging flamefest like an out of control bushfire at TFN forums for years.... this is comparatively civil :D

mtfbwya
Yes, several times.
And none of those you mention are considered official canon by the way, just official. ;)

fuzzyfreaker
08-02-2004, 06:06 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker
I find Kotor, the EU Books, and some games to be canon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion!

That means, you and I don't decide what is canon or not, LucasFilm Ltd. does.

KotOR definatly isn't canon, no.
In fact, nothing LucasArts makes is canon. The fact the company is Lucas owned is irrelavent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok, wheres the official website from Lucasfilm that rules out the fact KOTOR is not canon?

Jan Gaarni
08-03-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
3. Continuity

3.1 What is official?

Story and situational elements of any STAR WARS product licensed by Lucasfilm, plus materials integral to the creation of those products (eg. design notes used in the production of the movies).
"Official" status is not a matter of personal opinion.

3.2 What is "canon"?

The non-negotiable "facts" of the STAR WARS universe and its history. All canon material is official. Most official material is not canonical. According to Lucasfilm's continuity editors, writing in STAR WARS Insider #23, canon is defined as:

`Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations.

"Canon" status is not a matter of personal opinion.

I don't presume to pull this out my a** or anything here, this is how it is. :)

In a sense, you can say KotOR is "canon" for it's own time and events taking place in that time period, because all other material from now on and forth must be in line according to KotOR, otherwise the new material based on this time (as in non-KotOR material) can be disregarded at your own discression.

However, calling it canon will only confuse people from knowing what canon in Star Wars really is, which is:
Movies
Script
Movie Novels
Radio Drama
DK Visual Dictionaries, Incredible Cross-Sections, Locations books (Inside the World Of books)

Therefor, the word "canon" should only be used when referring to these works, and these works only!

fuzzyfreaker
08-04-2004, 11:58 AM
hmm... this is just a neverending controversy that will probably last forever. I mean for people that think the books and crap arn't canon, after episode 3, star wars is finished for them.

Jan Gaarni
08-05-2004, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker
hmm... this is just a neverending controversy that will probably last forever. I mean for people that think the books and crap arn't canon, after episode 3, star wars is finished for them.
Well, that's their loss, not ours. :D
Right? ;)

ET Warrior
08-06-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker
hmm... this is just a neverending controversy that will probably last forever.

It wouldn't last forever if you took the word straight from starwars.com (http://starwars.com/community/askjc/steve/askjc20010817.html)

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films.

Jan Gaarni
08-06-2004, 02:08 PM
Yeah, that's true, ET Warrior. Films are absolute canon. They are indisputable, except for a few minor points.

However, that is one mans personal opinion, from LucasBooks, which is not the same entity as LucasFilm Ltd, which controls the production of all sanctioned Star Wars stories. If it hasn't passed thru them it is unofficial material.

Here is what they have to say about it over at the Continuity and Production Editors at Lucasfilm:
What's 'gospel' and what isn't?

'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology.

That is the official policy for what is canon and not, straight from the guys who control the Star Wars Universe.

The only person who can override this policy is George Lucas, obviously. :)
If he wants to disregard certain things in EU, or even his own movies for that matter, he can do it.

Astrotoy7
08-08-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
....Yes, several times.
And none of those you mention are considered official canon by the way, just official. ;)

Jan, can you provide a linky to any source/document of LFLs canon listings..it'd be an interesting read. and I hope you dont mean those timelines that came at the start of the NJO books...

thx :D

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni
08-09-2004, 09:08 PM
Well, I don't know of any solid print online where you can read it, but you can if you pick up different interviews of the guys that are in charge.

* First Issue of Star Wars Insider, which will resite what I posted in the last quote
* Star Wars Insider #68, where Dorling Kindersley (DK) Star Wars Books was canonized (see quote 1)
* It was also confirmed on the StarWars.Com (http://www.starwars.com) website (see quote 2)

Quote 1:
"The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II."

Quote 2:
Q: Do you use any of the Star Wars books and guides when working on your designs? Do you look at the "Expanded Universe" at all?

A: As designers we look at all kinds of stuff for inspiration and we have a crack research staff to help us with that. The Star Wars books serve as a starting point and guide for certain types of questions that arise in respect to certain cultures or technologies that have already been established in the movies. The Star Wars Chronicles book is our bible, the Incredible Cross-Section books provide a great starting point when we're adding to existing locations. We usually don't refer to the Expanded Universe materials specifically unless our research team finds something that directly corresponds to our assignment.


There, hope that settles your curiousity. :)
It's 3 am, I'm going to bed. :D

Codja X
08-10-2004, 08:01 AM
it doesn't really matter whether KOTOR is canon or not - it's set 4000 years before the films, it doesn't contradict anything in the Tales of the Jedi comic books and it is highly unlikely that George Lucas will do anything set in this era.

It doesn't interfere with an other storylines and is not likely to be affected by anything in the future, so we should just consider it a (very) welcome addition to the Star Wars universe - canon or not.

fuzzyfreaker
08-10-2004, 01:10 PM
wow, that was, moving :D

Master_Keralys
08-16-2004, 09:39 PM
Okay, some serious clarification here:

When I said "canon" the word I should have used was official. The true Canon in SW is limited to the movies alone. However, LFL (LucasFilm Licensing, for the non-initiates out there) has repeatedly defined other groups as "Official". The distinction is critical: canon is what George Lucas says, period, end of story. Moreover, this is divided into levels by most analysts. For example, the Special Editions of the OT override the Original Editions, where they have minor changes or conflicts, etc. These, in turn, override novelisations, radio dramas, and that sort of thing based on the OT. In another example, the Ep. 2 DVD (with minor changes and additions) overrides the theatrical version. Now, this is all speaking about strictly canon material.

Official is a totally different ballgame. This is everything that is considered consistent with itself and in line with the main Star Wars story that Lucas Licensing is telling. This is where officialdom is determined - by the folks at Lucas Licensing, often with the help of some determined fans (note: Nathan Butler). The real question here, then, is whether or not KotOR is official. Under our operating definitions of canon, it certainly is not canon (that has been repeatedly established already). However, it is considered official and (with KotOR II) is actually drastically rewriting our understanding of the official story of the Old Republic era.

Separate (and below, in the hierarchy of "officialness") than canon, or officiality (which is of course below canon) is the apocrypha: all stories of any medium that conflict with official or canon stories.

You want a more detailed discussion than what I just gave you, go check out Nathan Butler's very detailed explanation in his Star Wars Timeline Gold or his ChronoRadio episode on it.

But as another note: canon is sometimes used to refer to all official and canon (both terms here as defined before) material within the SW universe. Which is how I used it when I opened the thread. Now, given this thesis I just wrote, there shouldn't be a whole lot more argument...

I hope.

Astrotoy7
08-17-2004, 08:42 AM
Ok....since 'films and films alone' are absolute canon, does that mean the "Star Wars Holiday Special" is absolute canon....

here is another type of can(n)on....
http://www.akdess.com/images/cannon.jpg

mtfbwya

Jan Gaarni
08-17-2004, 12:38 PM
No, Star Wars Holiday Special is not canon.

As much as GL would have all copies destroyed, they are still part of the official Star Wars nonetheless.

Astrotoy7
08-18-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
No, Star Wars Holiday Special is not canon.

As much as GL would have all copies destroyed, they are still part of the official Star Wars nonetheless.

SWHS isnt all bad, you got to see Chewies family, and Boba Fett too(in the accompanying cartoon) :D

mtfbwya

Master_Keralys
08-18-2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
SWHS isnt all bad, you got to see Chewies family, and Boba Fett too(in the accompanying cartoon) :D

mtfbwya Umm, Astro... those things you're calling good are what others call the main flaws. Sure, those might be considered "bonuses" in terms of "cool, now we know" - but among other things, the whole thing was just flat out scary...

Jedi Malastar
08-19-2004, 09:16 PM
KOTOR is my second faviorite xbox game, but its actaully wrong. According to KOTOR Exar Kun died 50 years ago from then, and he did't die till 3996 BBY, 4 years after kotor. In KOTOR 2 the sith lords are in charge and you are the last jedi. But the sith never actually took control, other than the empire, but I don't think of any star wars things to not be canon. So I just think of Kotor approxamatly 4000 years BBY, and in kotor 2 I'm sure something will clear it up, because I think it takes place on the planet that starts the sith war back then.

Master_Keralys
08-20-2004, 12:49 AM
Actually, that information is slightly incorrect. While the game's opening scroll indicates that the game is set 4.000 years before the Rise of the Empire, that is clearly a general figure. Quite simply, the rise of the Empire would actually put the game at 4,022 years BBY... and that definitely wouldn't make sense, because you're correcting in stating that Kun's final defeat was 3,996 BBY.

However, in-game references made by the characters would suggest that the game actually takes place about 40 years after the Exar Kun war (talk to Jolee Bindo for clarification), setting it at 3,956 BBY, which is now the commonly accepted date for its occurence. While the Sith were repeatedly defeated, nothing says that there wasn't a point when the events of KotOR happened. From an "historical" perspective, one could say the records of such events are only now being uncovered by archaeologists/Jedi loremasters (such as Tionne).

Now, as far as the Sith actually being, as you put it, in "control," the early reports of KotOR 2 don't actually have them in control. Rather, the Republic has disbanded the Jedi Order because of the havoc the Jedi caused in going to war against the Sith - becoming Sith themselves, completely upsetting the galaxy repeatedly for over forty-five years (from the start of the Exar Kun war to the conclusion of the Revan/Malak war). The Republic's irritation is actually understandable, and there are some intriguing parallels between the actions apparently taken by a truly benevolent but frightened Republic in the KotOR era and a benevolent Republic controlled by an exceedingly malevolent dictator (Sith Lord) some four millennia later. Thus, the Sith Assassins are operating secretly, trying to eliminate the Jedi entirely, and they are not operating with Republic sanction, certainly.

Finally, in KotOR 2, the player character will not actually be the last Jedi. It seems quite probable that (depending on what the character decides happened at the end of KotOR 1) you will actually be able to meet with Revan and/or Bastila and others... Rather, the reality is that the character is the last Jedi in Republic space; the rest have all fled to the uncharted regions of the galaxy until the Republic is ready and/or willing to allow for their return.

wassup
08-20-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys

Finally, in KotOR 2, the player character will not actually be the last Jedi. It seems quite probable that (depending on what the character decides happened at the end of KotOR 1) you will actually be able to meet with Revan and/or Bastila and others... Rather, the reality is that the character is the last Jedi in Republic space; the rest have all fled to the uncharted regions of the galaxy until the Republic is ready and/or willing to allow for their return.

And thus, the Sith Lords that KOTOR 2 mentions will probably be reigning in large parts of the areas where the Jedi have fled to, ie. uncharted territories (from the Republic's POV) that are controlled by the Sith Empire. Think of the Jedi as refugees fleeing their place of origin (where they are not accepted very warmly anymore), but instead fleeing to a place where they are not only not accepted, but very much hated.

Master_Keralys
08-20-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Wassup
And thus, the Sith Lords that KOTOR 2 mentions will probably be reigning in large parts of the areas where the Jedi have fled to, ie. uncharted territories (from the Republic's POV) that are controlled by the Sith Empire. Think of the Jedi as refugees fleeing their place of origin (where they are not accepted very warmly anymore), but instead fleeing to a place where they are not only not accepted, but very much hated. A good point, there. My only comment was that the Sith weren't in control of the Republic, at least... not yet :D Not till I take over! But you're correct in every way in stating that most of the Jedi will be in hiding - again, a situation remarkably similar to that engineered by Palpatine four millennia later. Likely a good portion of your quest in KotOR 2 will be reuniting the Jedi (if you're on the light) and killing the rest of them (if you're dark)... Regardless, though, the amount this will change people's perspectives on the history of the Old Republic is quite fascinating to me. Nobody's ever had this huge of a change in the history before. But every official source I've seen indicates that becase of its place in history and the fact that it conflicts with no other source material (a very nice job of research on the part of its creators, that indicates), KotOR I, II, and maybe someday III (though LA just ... er ... released the early dev team for 3) will all be official.

Jedi Malastar
08-20-2004, 07:23 PM
If you put it that way I guess that clears kotor up. But the sith in kotor 2 will have much to do with the republic, and are trying to destroy the republic. Also you start on the planet Onderon, where the sith war pretty much starts. And the inhabitants are still fighting there. But obviously this is after Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma are dead, so after they attacked the jedi capital as Ossus. Until the big thought bomb thing nothing really bad happened to the republic other than some people took over the Kanz sector. Which must be where events in Kotor 2 might take place. But the thing about the sith killing almost all of the jedi still doesnt really fit in.

Master_Keralys
08-22-2004, 05:42 PM
Well, if you really follow your argument to its logical conclusion, then the Exar Kun war itself didn't make any sense before its publication, because we'd never heard of it. Sure, the Sith kept coming back over and over again, concluding the massive army strategy at what would later come to be called the Valley of the Jedi on Ruusan. But no one knew about that until a while after the Exar Kun war's story had been told. So, following the argument that because we've never known about this before negates its validity would negate the thought bomb/clash of armies scenario because we'd never heard of it and assumed that the Sith just went into hiding after Exar Kun.

The game's starting on Onderon is likely because the game has a much darker focus: the whole game will really be about the dark side and its influence even on the Jedi. The moon itself is corrupted by the dark side for millennia after Kun and Qel-droma's deaths, so that's probably one of the reasons it was chosen. As far as the Sith killing most of the Jedi thing goes, there's actual little evidence that the Sith have killed most of the Jedi. They're not dead, they're in hiding. Sure, many are dead, but then forty years of war will do that. But when the game stuff talks about the player character being the "last" Jedi, information more recently available indicates that the character is only the last Jedi in Republic space: the others are alive, but scattered and in hiding. (Of course, this could be totally wrong, we'll see on December 29).

I wouldn't count on KotOR 2 having anything to do with the relatively small happenings in the Kanz sector; the whole saga is blazing new ground and going in new directions. Besides, Kanz was a lot more than 5 years after the events of KotOR 1. And we know that KOTOR 2 will be around 5 years after KOTOR, so that rules out Kanz anyway. I'd just expect the series to continue to redefine our perception of Old Republic history much as the New Jedi Order series redefined our perception of New Republic history.

fuzzyfreaker
08-27-2004, 01:22 AM
wow, wayyy too many long posts, too lazy to read them. KOTOR II IN DECEMBER!!!

RebelScum!
09-22-2004, 05:10 AM
Fuzzy...you reminded me of the top three games i can't wait to get

1. KOTOR II
2. HALO :rock:
3. SWbattlefront (havent got it just yet)

90SK
10-01-2004, 08:36 PM
From what I've heard from Trailers/Interviews it sounds like Obsidian has integrated KotOR II's plot into the SW universe fairly smoothely. I am looking forward to seeing just how they pulled it off, but I am confident that there will be no "problems". In fact, the only EU error I have seen in the KotOR series was the whole "Darth" thing, and how that doesnt come on till 3000 years later, but meh. Someone will probably patch that up later :rolleyes:

Kain
10-01-2004, 09:54 PM
Meh I can wait for KotOR 2...

But not knowing anything about the next Legacy of Kain game is DRIVING ME MAD!! MAD I TELLS YOU!!! MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 11111111111111

Master_Keralys
10-03-2004, 06:58 PM
Calm down Kain... it's okay.

We real SW fanboys, though, could do without Legacy of Kain, just not without KotOR II.

Indeed, they have done an excellent job of integrating with extant EU. The Darth thing will probably be explained by saying that the guys who decide to use it ~ 3000 years later just picked it up from old Sith records they found or something like that. It's standard LA operating procedure to catch and "fix" bugs like that with relative ease.

New note: just over two months to go... *starts countdown clock*

Lord Siraious
10-04-2004, 06:23 AM
I was always under the impression that the darth, and dark lord titles came directly from the primative Sith's culture.

*Yoinked*
10-04-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker
[B]norway's better[ /B]
Agreed...

Also what does mtfbwu mean, cause I do not know... -Edit- Thank you very much...

But back on topic, I think, besides the Darth thing, KotOR is completely canon. It is the best Star Wars game so far ('sides Battlefront, it rocks) and the replayability level and modding possibilities make it pwn all!

-Adam G.

Master_Keralys
10-08-2004, 06:43 AM
No, the "Darth" designation was (prior to this point) supposed to have arisen about 1000 years before the movies, when the great battle on Ruusan (read: Valley of the Jedi) took place, and only one Sith Lord survived, who then created the tradition of only two Sith at a time. He took the title, "Darth," combining "Dark" and "Sith." The title Dark Lord was first taken not from the Sith culture itself but by fallen Jedi who fled to Onderon and conquered Sith society.

Astrotoy7
10-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
No, the "Darth" designation was (prior to this point) supposed to have arisen about 1000 years before the movies, when the great battle on Ruusan (read: Valley of the Jedi) took place, and only one Sith Lord survived, who then created the tradition of only two Sith at a time. He took the title, "Darth," combining "Dark" and "Sith." The title Dark Lord was first taken not from the Sith culture itself but by fallen Jedi who fled to Onderon and conquered Sith society.

hmm...interesting, is that from the CUSWE ?? I always thought Darth was just an abbreviation of DARk lord of the siTH :)

mtfbwya

Master_Keralys
10-08-2004, 03:51 PM
Also what does mtfbwu mean, cause I do not know... May The Force Be With You Always. hmm...interesting, is that from the CUSWE ?? I always thought Darth was just an abbreviation of DARk lord of the siTH Uh, that's what it says, I think. "DARk" and "Sith," with "Lord of" implied in between. And no, it's not from the CUSWE, unless you count me as a CUSWE. That was off the top of my head. Should be enough to scare all you other wannabe fanboys into bowing down in submission to my mastery... :D

Lord Siraious
10-09-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
The title Dark Lord was first taken not from the Sith culture itself but by fallen Jedi who fled to Onderon and conquered Sith society.

I was close... I mean they (Dark Jedi/losers of the Great Schism)did form the Sith culture, so I was partially right.

Master_Keralys
10-10-2004, 07:42 PM
Sort of.

The Sith culture had existed in a primitive form for millenia prior to the arrival of the Dark Jedi, spurned by the Jedi Order in the results of the Great Schism. The true Sith - also known as the Massassi - died out finally in the Exar Kun war, though their decline had been coming since the days of the Great Hyperspace War (the original conflict in which Naga Sadow and his minions attacked the Republic).

The Dark Lord title was first taken by Naga Sadow and his followers, including Marka Ragnos. The title did not exist in primitive Sith/Massassi culture, and "Darth" was taken (excepting the non-canon origin in KotOR) only by Darth Bane after the great conflict on Ruusan and the death of Lord Hoth and the Army of the Light.

Good general idea, though, even if it is 4000 years off in time perspective...