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View Full Version : Is the EMpire really BAD?


Nairb Notneb
06-24-2004, 10:27 PM
My point is that it is the legal government. Do the rebels have the right to overthrow the legal government? Maybe they could have changed the universe in some sort of peaceful manner. Maybe I'm being to serious, but, imagine if the rebels gave peace a chance. How many Bothan lives would have been saved?

Owen_kenobi
07-12-2004, 12:07 PM
It's best not to question things like that you'll only start a civil war. And that's not what you are after is it.

Owen_kenobi
07-12-2004, 02:32 PM
You seem to be forgeting an important thing, the Empires crimes against humanity. Selling an entire planet of wookies as slaves. Murder and violence across the universe. And then they started blowing up planets what where they ment to do?:wan:

keduba
07-22-2004, 05:54 PM
Empire is evil. Everybody knows that. Even Palpatine knew that.

Mono_Giganto
08-01-2004, 02:39 PM
Selling an entire planet of wookies as slaves.

Dead giveaway that they need to be overthrown.

Nairb Notneb
08-04-2004, 03:25 PM
Some of the Empire's policies may seem harsh and unfair from a certain point of view. But, the Wookiee civilization could have been a valid threat to the Republic during the Clone Wars and had to be dealt with. Did the Wookiees join the separatists or the loyalists? A valid question to ask. If they were separatists then they were traitors to the Empire and have received proper punishment for their rebellion in their part in breaking up the Republic and forcing the Empire into existence in the first place. Greed, pride and selfishness were the true powers that created the Empire, they enabled its creation. If the Trade Federation, Banking Clan and the other 1000's of worlds did not posses these traits, then the emperor would not have been able to take control. I stand by my statement, the empire is not bad, the emperor , sure, but the empire was a legal creation of greed.

Nairb Notneb
08-04-2004, 03:32 PM
Some of the Empire's policies may seem harsh and unfair from a certain point of view. But, the Wookiee civilization could have been a valid threat to the Republic during the Clone Wars and had to be dealt with. Did the Wookiees join the separatists or the loyalists? A valid question to ask. If they were separatists then they were traitors to the Empire and have received proper punishment for their rebellion in their part in breaking up the Republic and forcing the Empire into existence in the first place. Greed, pride and selfishness were the true powers that created the Empire, they enabled its creation. If the Trade Federation, Banking Clan and the other 1000's of worlds did not posses these traits, then the emperor would not have been able to take control. I stand by my statement, the empire is not bad, the emperor , sure, but the empire was a legal creation of greed.

SE_Vader_536
09-16-2004, 06:57 AM
even if the wookies took a side, or if anyone did for that matter, why should the entire race and planet be punished for that action? what about those who didnt care or who were opposed? what about the children who didnt even know? should they receive cruel retributions? is it okay for RACIAL CLEANSING?

Nairb Notneb
09-16-2004, 11:50 AM
You guys are missing my point but its my fault, I'll go into more detail. The political entity that is the "Empire" is not "bad" it is just the government that was being usurped by a small group that happened to be in power at the time. This group came to power through manipulation and clever guiles. Unfortunately, those in power installed policies that were inhumane, genocidal and designed to keep those in power in power. This is often how a dictatorship works. It is all part of the political life cycle/struggle. Sentient beings congregate and find they have a need for government, thus a type of some sort is set up typically a monarchy of sorts. Eventually greed sets into the monarchy and this group abuses its subjects. The monarchal government would work just fine be it not for the greed in the rulers. The people revolt and some group takes control and establishes a new government. Eventually the monarchy is replaced by some sort of dictatorship regime or a type of democracy. A dictatorship is easier to maintain, control and continue than a democracy is because with a dictatorship only one individual has the power. With a democracy a group has the power. In the U.S.A., we have developed a Democratic-Republic form of government here and we have several of the same problems that plagued the Galactic Republic in this Galaxy so long ago. It is very easy for democratic-republics to change into dictatorships without people realizing what they have allowed to happen, which is what happened to the republic when it transformed into the empire. But what gave the rebels the right to say that they were legally right to force the empire out of existence? The rebels had the same prejudices as the empire, look at the battles of Yavin and Hoth. How many different species did you see fighting side by side against the empire? Not until the battle of Endor do you see the rebels begging for help from the Bothans and the Moncalamari. The rebels should get off of their high horse before they judge those of the empire.

SE_Vader_536
09-16-2004, 02:11 PM
the empire was created for the sole purpose of being evil...

of course it was the power was misused! thats why the government was created...

Nairb Notneb
09-17-2004, 04:14 AM
The Empire was bad because one guy made it bad, Palpatine. The Empire could have been good if Palpatine or any other individual was a good "moral" dictator. It is possible though it sounds like an oxymoron. In "real" history there have been good kingdoms and a monarchy and dictatorship are not that different. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that Yoda became Emperor of the Galaxy with all of his characteristics and personalities. He would be a good moral dictator. He would rule the galaxy with justice and fairness but he would hold all of the power alone just like Palpatine. Yoda would not promote genocide on the Wookies or any other race nor would he had conquered or controlled systems with the military or Death Star. He would have done it peacefully. Therefore in this example the empire would have been "good" had Yoda become Emperor. My point is not that the policies of the Empire weren't bad, they were, but that the entity it's self was the legal government and it was therefore right. The people in power were bad yes and they needed to be removed, yes. They never should have been allowed to come to power, complacency in government is the ally of the carrier politician.

Kryllith
09-20-2004, 12:11 PM
One bad guy does not make one bad government; it takes a ton of followers who share/support his view. You stated later that the bad guys needed to be removed, so I won't dwell on the subject...

I imagine the main reason, speak from a purely governmental point of view, that the Rebel felt they had the right to overthrow the government is because it wasn't the true government. It was a Republic, a government of delegates elected by the people of the individual planets that formed the Republic. While Palpatine gained power through legal means, his position as head was meant as a temporary position to stifle the Seperatists. Why then, did he continue to remain in power long after the Clone Wars ended? Because it had turned from a Republic into a Dictatorship. A Dictatorship was not the initial government, and most likely, was not supported by the vast majority of the populations of the planest making up the original Republic. Thus, the Dictatorship is a false-government, and the Rebels have every reason to try and restore it to its original position.

Kryllith

Nairb Notneb
09-23-2004, 07:36 AM
I agree that the power given Palpatine was usurped by him, but it was granted to him by the senate. The senate failed their constituents by not limiting the power in some way. In the granting of emergency powers they very easily could have placed a time limit in their proposal in order to automatically remove the powers granted to him. The senate failed to do their job because they were lazy and complacent, thus their manipulation, the Jedi were as well thus their defeat.

Upon seeing Palpatines rise to power other ambitious individuals jumped on his coat tails and joined him and also joined his "New Order" and helped end the Republic. A dictatorship will only work with a strong base of supporters and subjugated people that are willing to stay that way.

The rebels had no legal form of removing Palpatine from power so they took the only course that they could, being in a dictatorship and all. But Palpatine cleverly took control in a legal fashion, although he did it through manipulations with the aid of the Dark Side.

Kryllith
09-24-2004, 05:51 AM
We're basically thinking along the same lines then, which I guess goes back to the original question. Is the Empire evil? I'd say yes. Just because something is lawful, doesn't necessarily mean it's good, and sometimes the only way create a society that is both lawful and good is to overthrow a corrupt government. It's a matter of looking at the other side of the coin, I suppose. If we imply that the Empire is good (not evil), then perhaps we should imply that the Rebellion, being the opposition, is evil (which may be true, if you take the Clerks perspective and consider all the "innocent" contractors working to build the Death Star so they can feed their families).

Kryllith

Nairb Notneb
09-24-2004, 10:16 AM
Just because something is "legal" doesn't make it "moral" or "good". However, the empire came into existence through legal means making it the legal government. The frightening aspect of it is that this type of regime change has happened several times in real life in similar circumstances. For example, Nazi Germany with Hitler, Castro in Cuba (a little different more similar to the rebels) and Marx in Russia (also more like the rebels). It would be interesting to see Lucas finish his story of the Skywalkers and to see how he would have had the New Republic come forth with the rebels. Would he have them set up a new Republic, or would another dictatorship come up out of the ashes as so often does in a real life rebellion? (Cuba, Russia) rebellions are great to oust a dictator, but be careful, because the rebel that conquers might be worse than the dictator.