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View Full Version : 2005 year of the RTS


DarthMaulUK
06-25-2004, 07:29 PM
Having had a laugh and a joke with my dear friend at lucasarts over the possiblity of Galactic Battlegrounds 2, I managed to quiz an unofficial giggle about a release that was way off.

So, basically Lucasarts do have a new RTS up their sleeve. What it is called / based on, we can only guess...but it is coming

DMUK

pbguy1211
06-25-2004, 08:19 PM
yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

lukeiamyourdad
06-25-2004, 09:47 PM
WOOOooooooooOOOO!!!

FroZticles
06-26-2004, 12:51 AM
YaY Mercenaries the RTS :rolleyes:

Could be anything he didn't say it was Star Wars :P

DarthMaulUK
06-26-2004, 03:49 AM
Dont read between the lines! hehe. It certainly will be Star Wars and probably be episode iii related. However, I have managed to secure a first exclusive look once details are ready to be released.


DMUK

Darth Windu
06-26-2004, 08:52 AM
SSSSSWWWWWEEEEEEEEEETTTTT

So when will Lucasarts be signing me up to their development team? :D

Seriously though, i hope that if Lucasarts are really doing a SW RTS they do it properly this time 'round. A new engine, getting rid of clunking old concepts like Tech Levels and the like.

FroZticles
06-26-2004, 09:05 AM
K got some questions

So are they releasing details before 2005 or are they mentioning it in there 2005 line up for E3?

Is it just based on the third movie or will it have all 6 of them?

Will we be the first to know since we have stuck by the forums preying for a new RTS?

Is it a sequel to SWGB or just a total new name?

Some you prolly can't answer but it doesn't hurt to ask :D

saberhagen
06-26-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by DarthMaulUK
Having had a laugh and a joke with my dear friend at lucasarts over the possiblity of Galactic Battlegrounds 2, I managed to quiz an unofficial giggle about a release that was way off.

I bet he was just winding you up cos you keep slagging off Galaxies. ;)

lukeiamyourdad
06-26-2004, 10:53 AM
Yes yes can we be Beta testers since we stuck here when everyone went away :D?

Admiral Vostok
06-26-2004, 11:54 AM
I just hope they release it after Episode III and not before. In my opinion Clone Campaigns suffered because it was released before Episode II so some things didn't fit right (like basing the Republic Worker on the Waitress in Dex's Diner).

FroZticles
06-26-2004, 01:04 PM
If Space expansion does not make SWG a whole lot better I think they will lose 50% of there subscribers. People have high hopes for this expansion and if LA and SOE don't deliver its the end of SWG.

I just thought of the whole Star Wars storyline turned into a song with the Giligans Island tune *shacks*

DarthMaulUK
06-26-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
I just hope they release it after Episode III and not before. In my opinion Clone Campaigns suffered because it was released before Episode II so some things didn't fit right (like basing the Republic Worker on the Waitress in Dex's Diner).

When Lucasarts started on Clone Campaigns, they had alot of artwork from Episode II but didn't actually know what some of those characters did in the movie - like the Waitress.

So far, I can't ask/answer any questions about the new game mainly because I don't know at this early stage...stress early. E3 for 2005 would be good indeed with a release when the movie is out, or just after.

Either way, you will all know when I find out and look out for alot of info when I do! hehe

DMUK

Nairb Notneb
06-26-2004, 05:39 PM
Well, I all I know that if there is not an EPIII version (add on) to SWGB I will be very upset. My son and I love this game. I've been "playing" SW for over 20+ years now and I'm still doing it. I don't ever want to stop. Keep 'em coming George.

Darth Windu
06-27-2004, 05:33 AM
Hi Nairb, we have discussed this before and really what we are looking at is instead of an Ep3 xpac for SWGB, i completely new game that includes advances in gameplay, graphics etc and has content from all 6 films.

saberhagen
06-27-2004, 07:18 AM
Isn't it ironic that as soon as we all stopped talking about SWGB2 and got back to talking about SWGB1, this happens? ;)

Admiral Vostok
06-27-2004, 10:37 AM
Isn't it ironic that as soon as we all stopped talking about SWGB2 and got back to talking about SWGB1, this happens?Indeed it is. It's almost too coincidental... okay I don't know what I'm insinuating there...

When Lucasarts started on Clone Campaigns, they had alot of artwork from Episode II but didn't actually know what some of those characters did in the movie - like the Waitress.That was my point. If they try to get the game out before the movie, the same sort of thing will happen again. I've also noticed silly mistakes in other Episode II related material that came out before the movie. My favourite example of where the someone was given some unexplained image from the movie and made incorrect assumptions is in the Visual Dictionary. Although these books are filled with rediculous EU explanations of things, I collect all of them because it's quite interesting to see all the details on props and what have you. Anyway, in the Episode II Visual Dictionary there is an image of the SPHA-T from front on. From this angle, it isn't clear that the turbolaser is actually a turbolaser - it just looks like a dish on top of the vehicle. At any rate, the author made a bad assumption, obviously because Lucasfilm just gave him this picture and no accompanying explanation, and he labelled the turbolaser dish as being a "troop hatch" or something like that.

These kinds of things can be found in many of the Episode II things, and it really annoyed me. If they had just waited to release the stuff after the movie they would have gotten things to be of much better quality. The same goes for Clone Campaigns, and will be the same for this new RTS.

However, considering how long it takes games to be made and released, I'm not too worried as they'll never get it finished in time before Episode III if we're just learning it may exist now.

lukeiamyourdad
06-27-2004, 11:33 AM
Besides, what kind of new content from Ep3 can we expect? A few vehicles? Not very critical.

Darth Windu
06-27-2004, 10:14 PM
I actually expect a great deal of new content from Ep3. Looking at the past 5 films, there has always been quite a few new characters, vehicles, ships etc, particually in Ep1 & 2.

With the game, Vostok's problem (which i agree with) could be solved by Lucasarts and Lucasfilm working a little more closely, and i would prefer to see the game released on the day Ep3 opens in cinema's. Maybe they could offer a special deal, like 'see the premiere of Ep3 and get $10 off SWGB2' or something like that.

pbguy1211
06-28-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
i would prefer to see the game released on the day Ep3 opens in cinema's. Maybe they could offer a special deal, like 'see the premiere of Ep3 and get $10 off SWGB2' or something like that.

lol... austrailians... so far away from the rest of the real world ;)

FroZticles
06-28-2004, 01:12 AM
Hopefully they will do alot of promoting for the new RTS so it will last longer than SWGB.

lukeiamyourdad
06-28-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
I actually expect a great deal of new content from Ep3. Looking at the past 5 films, there has always been quite a few new characters, vehicles, ships etc, particually in Ep1 & 2.


Not really. The Clone Wars is still the Clone Wars. Content wise I don't think it will add a lot of new stuff since by the time Ep3 starts, the Clone War is almost over. The only real battle we'll see will be in the beginning and I believe I've heard it was a space battle.

Darth Windu
06-28-2004, 11:29 PM
luke - okay then, this is just a quick list of new vehicles/ships that have come from each film

Ep1 - TPM
- Trade Federation Battleship
- Trade Federation Droid Control Ship
- Federation Lander
- Droid Starfighter
- MTT
- AAT
- Droid Ground Transport
- Droideka
- STAP
- Naboo Royal Starship
- N-1 Starfighter
- Gian Speeder
- Flash Speeder
- Naboo Watership
- Gungan Bongo
- Fambaa Shield Generator
- Kaduu Cavalry
- Gungan Artillery
- Gungan Battle Wagon
- Sith Infiltrator
- Sith Speeder
- Sith Prode Droids
- Republic Cruiser
- Republic Transport
- Podracers (about 12 i think)

Ep2 - AotC
- Republic Assault Ship
- Republic Refugee Transport
- Jedi Starfighter
- Republic Gunship
- Republic Dropship
- AT-TE
- SPHA-T
- Confed Rocket Ship
- Hailfire Droid
- Homing Spider Droid
- Dward Spider Droid
- Geonosian Starfighter
- Geonosian Sailship
- Anakin's Airspeeder
- Zam Wessel's Airspeeder
- Coruscant Air Bus
- Dooku's Speeder Bike
- Naboo Transport
- Naboo Yacht
- Naboo 'Canoe' (you know what i mean)

Ep4 - ANH
- Blockade Runner
- X-wing
- Y-wing
- Millenium Falcon
- Rebel Pilot Transport
- Star Destroyer
- Darth Vader's TIE Fighter
- Imperial Lander
- Death Star
- TIE Fighter
- Jawa Sandcrawler

Ep5 - ESB
- Super Star Destroyer
- TIE Bomber
- AT-AT
- AT-ST
- Probot
- Slave 1
- Rebel Transport
- Escort Frigate
- Snowspeeder
- Cloud City Security Car

Ep6 - RotJ
- Death Star II
- TIE Interceptor
- Imperial Shuttle
- Speeder Bike
- B-wing
- A-wing
- Mon Cal Cruiser
- Home One
- Jabba's Sail Barge
- Desert Skiff


and that is only a partial list. One thing i do believe though is that we will be seeing a great deal of new stuff in Ep3, and hence the content from Ep3 will be important to a future RTS

lukeiamyourdad
06-28-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Not really. The Clone Wars is still the Clone Wars. Content wise I don't think it will add a lot of new stuff since by the time Ep3 starts, the Clone War is almost over. The only real battle we'll see will be in the beginning and I believe I've heard it was a space battle.

Don't you read Windu?

How much new stuff do you expect from that?
And excuse me but how the hell are podracers relevent to SWGB2? And the Slave ships? And all those speeders?
Even more the Escort Frigates and all the large spaceships you've mentionned?

Let me remind you that this is about SWGB2, not how many new stupid irrelevent to any RTS vehicle.

FroZticles
06-29-2004, 02:03 AM
Well large ships can easily have a home if they make SWGB2 planet wars and not just map wars.

Maybe Windu wants to see a podracer mission?

When you can name all those vehicles from each movie off the top of your head its time to get a life.......

saberhagen
06-29-2004, 07:33 AM
There's some I can't recognise even after he's named them. Who is Zam Wessel???

Maybe there's some hope of me regaining a normal life after all. ;)

FroZticles
06-29-2004, 09:16 AM
The female bounty hunter who got her hand cut off in the cantina. The changer girl in ep 2.

saberhagen
06-29-2004, 03:18 PM
Oh her. She was quite sexy until she turned into a lizard thing or whatever it was. I've only seen AOTC once and I didn't pay much attention cos I found most of it quite boring. Heresy! Heresy! I've got the DVD but I can't bring myself to watch it again.

pbguy1211
06-29-2004, 03:51 PM
every time i see it airing on cable i groan :)
hayden christiansen (or whatever the F his name is) SUCKS!

lukeiamyourdad
06-29-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by pbguy1211

hayden christiansen (or whatever the F his name is) SUCKS!

Amen. Too bad he's good in other movies.

Sithmaster_821
06-29-2004, 08:18 PM
*dances a jig*

Just when I was about to lose hope.........

So when will Lucasarts be signing me up to their development team?
When hell freezes over.......

Yeah, Portman, Christiansen, McGregor, etc., are all good and proven actors. I really dont how Lucas managed to make them so wooden. My best guess was that Lucas never signed them on, and its just facsimile robots playing the parts.

pbguy1211
06-29-2004, 08:28 PM
Ewan and Sam L. are GREAT... but George has made them so damned stiff in these films it's not even funny... it pains me to even think about it. Pulp Fiction = Great Sam L. and Train Spotting = great Ewan!

lukeiamyourdad
06-29-2004, 09:38 PM
And who can forget Christopher Lee, one of the greatest actors ever who got the role of a lifeless Count Dooku.

FroZticles
06-29-2004, 10:08 PM
Lifeless is probably what Lucas was aiming for, he is a Sith you know.......

Here we are bagging the thing that has drawn us to these forums :rolleyes:

Darth Windu
06-29-2004, 10:37 PM
luke - first of all, we will only know what sort of battle to expect in Ep3 when the film opens, not before, and therefore rumours are irrelevant. As for the post, it was to show you that, as i said, Lucas adds heaps of new content to each of his films, particually the prequel trilogy.

FroZ - actually it's because of on a mission to bug Hasbro into brigning back the Star Wars Micro Machines line. As part of that, i created a list of vehicles/ships that could be made into a MicroMachines in order to show Hasbro how many possabilities existed.

saber - want to send that DVD my way? ;)

Sith - wow, that tooka long time. I was expecting someone to come up with a response to that MUCH earlier.

FroZticles
06-29-2004, 11:14 PM
I was going to respond to it but it was WAY to easy.

lukeiamyourdad
06-30-2004, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by FroZticles
Lifeless is probably what Lucas was aiming for, he is a Sith you know.......


By lifeless I meant without a soul...I mean...ah you know what the hell I meant!

Windu- Those aren't exactly rumors. I received SW Homing Beacon #X sometime ago and it had an interview with the guy who does the opening scene right after the moving text.
I'll forward it to you if you want and if I can find it.

Besides, this was about SWGB2 and lots of vehicles you mentionned are irrelevent to the topic.

Darth Windu
06-30-2004, 04:41 AM
Actually it is relevant, because you said that you didnt think there would be much new content. What i wrote in my large post is evidence that there is a very large probability Ep3 will introduce a lot of new content.

FroZticles
06-30-2004, 08:54 AM
Well almost everything from Ep3 will be scenario toy box stuff. Maybe a few new units with civs but nothing that hasn't already been predicted will be in this movie.....

Admiral Vostok
06-30-2004, 09:39 AM
While there will of course be new Episode III stuff, the original question was will there be enough new Episode III to warrant an expansion pack to SWGB1. The answer, of course, is no. No matter how much new Episode III stuff there is, they aren't going to make another expansion for SWGB1.

As luke's dad says, the huge space battle at the opening of Episode III has been confirmed by official sources. I expect we'll see a number of vehicles that won't exactly be new, but will be different. The vehicle designs are supposed to be much closer to what we see in A New Hope, but whether we'll see entire new vehicles or just grungier versions of existing vehicles remains to be seen.

When you can name all those vehicles from each movie off the top of your head its time to get a life.......Yeah, I've been meaning to do that...

Now to bad acting... perhaps Lucas told them to act poorly because bad acting was one of the defining elements of the original Star Wars Trilogy? That's my explanation and I'm sticking to it. :D It wouldn't be Star Wars without bad acting. Even Alec Guinness, one of the greatest actors ever to grace the screen, is bad in Star Wars - so bad he didn't want his name attached to it.

lukeiamyourdad
06-30-2004, 03:25 PM
Perhaps not but old Obi was still good. I never thought he as bad in the OT. He's not at his best but he got enough character development to be acceptable.

I guess the only actor that has almost been flawless in Star Wars is Harrison Ford. Without him, the Leia/Han relationship would've been very bad...better then the Padmé/Anakin but still baaaddd...

Darth Windu
06-30-2004, 11:31 PM
Vostok - actually the discussion was just about new Ep3 content, which i think will be important because we will probably get at the very least some new fighters which we can add to the game (SWGB2).

As for acting, my favourite actor from the 5 films would have to be Harrison Ford, least favourite would be Mark Hamill. Also, while there is some bad acting, there is only one bit that i actually cringe which is in Ep2 where Padme says to Anakin 'i've been dying a little each day since you came back into my life' - quite possibly the worst movie line ever spoken. If i had the power i would love to delete that scene from the film and my mind.

lukeiamyourdad
06-30-2004, 11:34 PM
I would love to delete Anakin's whining from my mind...

I would say my least favourite is Carrie Fischer(sp?). She has the worst line in RotJ and without Harrison Ford, she'd be nothing.

FroZticles
07-01-2004, 12:57 AM
The love story with Padme and Anakin was not thought out well. Lucas is a action, sci-fi and adventure film maker if we all are forgetting. Why would Padme just throw her entire career/life away for the kid she met on Tatooine 10 years earlier......

Luke Skywalker(mark hamill) worst actor in Star Wars. I did not like his character I was hoping he would be slain by Vader. I would not mind a remake of the trilogy at all just to change the scarred image of Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Vostok- I don't think anyone mentioned an expansion pack with SWGB. The graphics are greatly outdated and I think they want to move forward and not backwards. If an expansion to SWGB was ever going to take place it would have a long time ago.

Admiral Vostok
07-01-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
Well, I all I know that if there is not an EPIII version (add on) to SWGB I will be very upset. My son and I love this game. I've been "playing" SW for over 20+ years now and I'm still doing it. I don't ever want to stop. Keep 'em coming George.
This is what I was referring to, and what started the whole Episode III discussion.

I agree nothing more will be made for SWGB, and I hope they include any new content from Episode III in the next RTS.

Just to clear all that up.

DarthMaulUK
07-03-2004, 04:43 PM
I think its safe to say that the next Star Wars RTS will be based on Episode III. And i pray that it has space battles.

As soon as the information is in my hands, everyone here WILL be the first to know!

DMUK

Admiral Vostok
07-04-2004, 11:13 AM
I think if it does include space battles, it won't include ground battles, and vice-versa. You technically need two different engines to handle the 3-D combat of space battles (like Homeworld) and the traditional RTS ground battles.

Igor_Cavkov
07-04-2004, 03:51 PM
well i liked the air battles in Force commander! very cool!

Darth Windu
07-05-2004, 05:16 AM
Vostok - not necessarily. Just because an RTS is set in space doesnt mean it MUST be 3D. An example here is 'Star Trek: Armada'. A fantastic RTS, it was 2D (though you could go limited 3D) and it worked fine. There was also an option called 'directors cut' which made the ships dogfight which was quite a nice feature.

FroZticles
07-05-2004, 07:00 AM
Vostok don't assume anything, technology is changing if you haven't noticed. Windu if it's not in 3D the graphical side of the game can only go so far and it would be a feel disappointment.

lukeiamyourdad
07-05-2004, 10:32 AM
That's kind of a big issue. I've been against the issue of adding space battles to Star Wars Battlefront due to the need to create a new engine for it.

You'll basically have two different engines merged into one. Never has been done before, could be a breakthrough in gaming or a total flop.

Admiral Vostok
07-05-2004, 10:40 AM
Windu, after Homeworld 2, anyone making a space-based RTS would be foolish to make it 2-D. Actually Frozticles is probably right about the technology. I can see that with 3-D RTS engines nowadays, like Battle for Middle Earth for example, could probably be extended to encompass space combat in proper 3-D. But I'm still of the opinion that trying to include both ground combat and space combat will force the makers to divide their attention, making each part not as good as it could have been. I'd also like a space RTS, but it should be a separate game from the ground RTS.

FroZticles
07-05-2004, 10:46 PM
Since Lucasarts is all about breaking records in the gaming community these days, I'm sure they will try a space and ground RTS as one game.

lukeiamyourdad
07-05-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by FroZticles
Since Lucasarts is all about breaking records in the gaming community these days, I'm sure they will try a space and ground RTS as one game.

Well, I would rather have somebody else try it, flops it and then we can build off their mistakes.



Nothing that has to do with the subject but I'll be going on vacay for month and probably won't be able to post. Goodbye y'all and see y'all in a month!

joesdomain
07-22-2004, 12:30 PM
Well, If there is a new Star Wars RTS game coming out in 2005, I am in a world of hurt. LOL! My video card is damaged and causes my PC games to crash. I guess I better save a bunch of money to buy a new computer with a better operating system than a Pentium III 667, Windows 98SE, and a 8 MB video card.

Let's hope the game includes all 6 films!

Admiral Vostok
07-22-2004, 10:58 PM
If that's the same computer you had ages ago when you were hoping the SWGB sequel would be 2D so you could run it... then it's certainly time for an upgrade.

pbguy1211
07-23-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by joesdomain
I guess I better save a bunch of money to buy a new computer with a better operating system than a Pentium III 667, Windows 98SE, and a 8 MB video card.
ROFLMAO!!!

joesdomain
07-26-2004, 06:40 AM
Yeah, My computer's internet browser is messed up half the time and my video card can not play even a Star Wars video game like Galactic Battlegrounds anymore because it crashes. I pray that the RTS game comes out later than soon. I would rather play PLaystation 2 video games now. I believe they said at Comic-con this year that the Star Wars Episode III video game will be out for X-box and PS2 only for May, 2005.

Admiral Vostok
07-26-2004, 01:49 PM
I'm sure there will be more than just one Episode III game. Look at all the games from Episode I and Episode II.

Puzzlebox
07-28-2004, 12:38 AM
Whats your affiliation with lucas arts DarthmaulUK?

DarthMaulUK
07-28-2004, 03:55 AM
Chief pain in the a**** ;-)

Basically I have alot of contact with LA because I am part of one of the largest fan networks. Lucasarts see the LFN network as an official fan site and they give us, when they can - exclusives, prizes and other stuff.

Because I have known my contact there for a while now, we are like international friends and they ALWAYS expect me to bring up the next Star Wars RTS at the end of our emails/chats :-)



DMUK

Puzzlebox
07-28-2004, 10:10 PM
What are the chances I could get one of their ears?

I've long thought the only way I could get them to make a damn game right is if I bank rolled it, well not really; they wouldn't be doing it then :) which reminds me, how much did gb cost to get done, anybody know-ballpark?

Facts are facts, my I.Q. is 205 which makes me by default smarter than most of the people at LA and anywhere else for that matter and unlike most of them yet again, I can actually write.

I'd offer my time but I don't mix well with routines, either way my ideas for the next game are solid and they should really pay attention.

:swear: |||||||||:confused: :roleyess: :compcry:

DarthMaulUK
07-29-2004, 05:35 AM
if i had a pound everytime i was asked something like this :-)

DMUK

Puzzlebox
07-29-2004, 04:38 PM
Yeah I know, you might have a dollar by now :)

Seriously though I don't want them to screw it up so maybe I'll get someone to put it up like vostock has done.

saberhagen
07-30-2004, 05:46 AM
I think they should put Chris Crawford in charge of it. Even if it turns out to be rubbish, at least he'll have some more funny stories to put in the next edition of "On Game Design". ;)

I'd really love to hear what he would say if he ever read Vostok's or Windu's design documents...

JediMasterEd
07-30-2004, 01:24 PM
So they are, in fact, planning to make a brandy new RTS? Have our prays been finally answered? *begins to cry* Wonder which game engine they'll be using?
:confused:

DarthMaulUK
07-30-2004, 05:08 PM
By the looks of things, they are creating their own engine. Who knows.

DMUK

JediMasterEd
07-31-2004, 06:02 AM
Their, own engine?


*looks at Force Commander*


Oh dear...well, I hope they do a good job. Using the AoE engine wasn't too much of a bad idea, seeing how well it was doing then, but it was basically the wrong time when GB released since most RTS' started going 3D.

FroZticles
07-31-2004, 06:20 AM
They annouced the first Episode 3 game but its definately not an RTS. 1st person shooter or RPG by the sounds of it.

Nairb Notneb
08-10-2004, 05:40 PM
I love SWGBG and I can't wait for this new one, what ever it will be. I love RTS and I love Star Wars (been playing SW for the past 20+ years and still going). I just got into moding SWGBG and its great. I can't wait to get something new and good (hopefully). I still break out my old Rebellion game once and awhile.

joesdomain
08-20-2004, 03:47 AM
Maybe they are working on Rebellion 2! I would hope it is something that includes both ground and space battles.

Lex
08-26-2004, 09:00 AM
I already gave up on your site, DMUK... about time something happens, great work!

joesdomain
08-26-2004, 09:00 PM
It might be cool to build a new RTS engine for a new star wars game.

Fishflesh
11-10-2004, 08:46 AM
the new develper for the new RTS will be Petroglyph

http://www.petroglyphgames.com

Nairb Notneb
11-10-2004, 11:16 AM
Where did that these guys from Nevada are working on the new RTS? It only says on their website that they have a super secret project.

Fishflesh
11-11-2004, 11:25 AM
At LucasArts president Jim Ward revealed that the Command & Conquer veterans at Petroglyph will develop a real-time strategy game set in starwars univers.

DK_Viceroy
11-11-2004, 11:50 AM
Observe the top Pinned topic and the Topic about the new SW RTS and the "Force has not forgotten us" topics for the exact same thing in differently worded format.

Shouldn't this topic be changed to 2006 the year of the RTS since the game will inevitably get delayed till mid 2006

Admiral Vostok
11-11-2004, 01:16 PM
Well they're planning for a 2005 release, but you're right in that most games get a delayed release.

DK_Viceroy
11-12-2004, 12:38 AM
Especially since they'll most likely be making an engine from scratch. THANK GOD.

I wonder if this new game will actually be supported apart from throwing a half hearted path at us and saying to bog off.

Admiral Vostok
11-12-2004, 08:19 AM
I wonder if this new game will actually be supported apart from throwing a half hearted path at us and saying to bog off. Yes, I hope we'll get some support too. Petroglyph games are known for their ease of modability, so that indicates it would be easy to maintain... but you never know.

DK_Viceroy
11-12-2004, 08:31 AM
Though why would we really need modability except to put more star wars things in it?

While some mods would be welcome with us though we'd propably spend more time playing the original product.

Nairb Notneb
11-12-2004, 12:03 PM
I don't know, modability is always a big deal with Star Wars gamers. I think that if they build it into the game they will be doing its longevity a favor.

So, does this mean that it will most likely have a Command and Conquer flavor to it?

DK_Viceroy
11-12-2004, 01:46 PM
I don't think so since it won't have the sidebar obviously they'll proapbly be fishing around in a barel of new ideas.

Admiral Vostok
11-13-2004, 06:44 AM
Though why would we really need modability except to put more star wars things in it?For that very reason. With decent modability people can actually have civs like Trandoshans, Mon Calamari, Chiss and Yuuzhan Vong without the professionals having to waste their time building in these unpopular civs properly.

I hope you're right Viceroy in that they're going to go for new ideas. I wouldn't mind the C&C style of play in general, but there are three major things I hope they don't carry over:
[list=1]
A limited number of technologies. As I've said elsewhere, having a huge range of technologies and upgrades to chose from makes the game a bit more interesting to me. It means you won't necessarily play the game the same way all the time; if your opponent is using lots of air against you you'd upgrade you AA defences first, but if not you might upgrade something else instead. I don't remember the techs available in Red Alert 2, if indeed there were any at all, but in C&C Generals (although I know Petroglyph didn't make it) there was only half a dozen techs which were researched in the same order every time.
Superweapons. All C&C games have superweapons, and I for one am not a huge fan of them. The games become an arms race to rush to get the superweapon. Not only is it bad for gameplay, but let's not forget that in Star Wars it just doesn't fit. The only civ with a superweapon was the Empire with the Death Star, and the reason they had it was because they were the ultimate evil force. If everyone has superweapons it doesn't have the same significance.
Preset maps. My biggest gripe about C&C multiplayer and for that matter Blizzard multiplayer. A random map generator is essential to ensure decent multiplayer. Relying on map makers to produce new multiplayer maps to keep the game interesting is not a good idea. They should take the hint from Ensemble and their RTS's multiplayer success and get a random map generator.
[/list=1]

DK_Viceroy
11-13-2004, 01:54 PM
Vostok did you properly explore Pre Generals C&C games they indeed had random map generators you actually had to put in your preferences though Which was a pretty good idea then.

RA2 didn't have any techs in it but then the Campaign showed clearly that you wern't researching but showed who/where Researhc was done.

Some superwapons could be in say if you had them on the scale of the Genetic Mutator, Iron Curtain and the Chronosphere.

You could have the Ares Class Tactical Missile for the Confederacy (Some kind of Biological weapon in the Clone wars Cartoon)

Turbolaser Bombardment Uplink center for the empire.

Ion Cannon for Rebels (Disable mechanical things)

For the Republic you could have a Radar Jammer (think how the Republic delivered such a suprise on Geonosis.

lukeiamyourdad
11-13-2004, 02:25 PM
Wow. Give kick-ass biological weapon for the COnfed, deadly orbital bombardment for the Emprie, overpowered Ion Cannon for the Rebel and lame-ass Radar Jammer. Seriously, a Radar Jammer is very lame :dozey:

DK_Viceroy
11-13-2004, 03:15 PM
What would you rather have?

The Jedi Council using the force and destroying half of a planet's surface?

The Republic is the only Side that doesn't have some sort of Superweapons that fits them.

If you want a better idea come up with one.

FroZticles
11-13-2004, 05:15 PM
Superweapons are a bad idea. They did not have random generators the maps were all pre-made.

Darth Windu
11-13-2004, 06:21 PM
I agree, Superweapons are a horrible idea. While I have some semi-superweapons such as the Ion Cannon, they really arent offensive weapons, just base defence.

Admiral Vostok
11-13-2004, 07:37 PM
It's agreed then that superweapons suck. Let's hope our good friends at Petroglyph know this.

FroZticles
11-13-2004, 10:00 PM
Ok lets agree to agree that super weapons suck :p

Someone please explain this scissor-paper-rock thing I saw it in a Axis and Allies review but still am unclear of what purpose it has.

DK_Viceroy
11-14-2004, 01:59 AM
I'll try and explain it.

Think having specific units counter another specific units like our Mech Destroyer owning any Mech and our Strike Mechs owning Troopers.

On RA2 there is a generator but you have to pick the preferences tileset and all the other details I think it's in the section which for some reason is called "Create Map" hwo strange I wonder why they called it that.:bdroid2:

Fishflesh
11-14-2004, 07:01 AM
lol

just that this developer makes these games does not mean its gonne be anything like any c&c game... just look at lord of the rings RTS.. c&c games have superweapons...why? becose it's c&c... this is NOT c&c.

DK_Viceroy
11-14-2004, 07:21 AM
Here Here.

Admiral Vostok
11-14-2004, 07:46 AM
I should point out that Battle for Middle Earth does have superweapons (kind of). The Army of the Dead and the Balrog and so forth are (kind of) superweapons. However it works in that context for Lord of the Rings, for Star Wars there is no equivalent.

Froz, just to expand on Viceroy's description of rock-paper-scissors: I'll assume you're familiar with the game of rock-paper-scissors where each item beats one particular item but is beaten by another. The same goes for SWGB:
Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock
Mech Destroyer beats Strike Mech beats Mounted Trooper beats Mech Destroyer

DK_Viceroy
11-14-2004, 08:09 AM
Except AoT takes it to the extreme instead of having units that Are good against quite a few and a bonus versus one type AoT has units that are specifcally meant to counter one thing and arn't that wonderful against everything else.

Fishflesh
11-14-2004, 09:36 AM
So it came as little surprise when Electronic Arts announced The Lord of the Rings, The Battle for Middle-earth, a PC RTS based on Peter Jackson's film threesome. The game--subject of a recent hands-on--is one of the most anticipated PC games of the year, and it has RTS addicts already exercising their mouse fingers in anticipation of the game's December 6 release.

Now it appears that Star Wars fans will be getting an RTS of their own. In an interview with the Hollywood Reporter today, LucasArts president Jim Ward was discussing post-Episode III Star Wars properties. Besides talking about "new live-action and animated TV shows" (which will hopefully be better than the Droids and Ewoks series, or the infamous Star Wars Holiday Special), he also discussed LucasArts' future game plans.

Ward said the company's strategy was to create "original Star Wars games like a new real-time strategy PC game that Petroglyph is developing for next year. This game will take the genre in a new direction and will balance gameplay between the hardcore gamers who buy these games and the broader audience that's familiar with the Star Wars brand."

Unfortunately, that's all LucasArts is saying about the as-yet-unnamed Star Wars RTS. Representatives for the publisher declined further comment on the game, saying only that it would be "available next year." However, Ward's comments do reveal that LucasArts is continuing its transformation from a publisher with in-house development to one that farms out games to independent studios.

In the case of the Star Wars RTS, LucasArts has made an interesting choice. The game will be Petroglyph's first, and is most likely the "killer top-secret project" mentioned on its Web site. However, the independent studio has an impressive roster of veteran game designers, including many of the original Command & Conquer team from Westwood Studios.

GameSpot will bring you more on the Star Wars RTS as details emerge.


from gamespot

Admiral Vostok
11-14-2004, 10:15 AM
Thanks for that Ackbar. It certainly sounds like we won't just be getting Red Alert: Star Wars Edition.

DK_Viceroy
11-14-2004, 10:22 AM
Even if we got Red Alert Star wars edition with a 3d Engine I doubt they could do worse than Force Commander.

Besides anything Red Alert related is Property of EA so rest assured we won't be geting C&C flavour star wars.

Nairb Notneb
11-16-2004, 01:22 AM
Te best news, by any means, is that its coming. I also think that it is good that it sounds like it will get here after the release of episode Three so that this time they will know what they are actually putting into the game this time.

Admiral Vostok
11-16-2004, 05:35 AM
Indeed, from the sounds of thins it will come several months after Episode III, perhaps around this time next year. I certainly think that's a good thing.

Nairb Notneb
11-16-2004, 07:48 AM
It's good for several reasons:

1). The ROTS frenzy would have died down by then, assuming it's not in the theaters still because it hasn't been playing for six months straight!!
2). They will actually know what to put into the movie and what those pictures are that Lucas is giving them.
3). Any story lines will make since then.
D). When Lucas releases Episode III to DVD, they can release an expansion pack to incorporate all of his definitive changes to the Saga.

DK_Viceroy
11-16-2004, 07:54 AM
Petrogtlpyh will propably have been given a pre-release version of ROTS.

Admiral Vostok
11-16-2004, 02:12 PM
Unlikely since LucasArts didn't get a pre-release version of AOTC before they were making Clone Campaigns, and that was probably more necessary since they were released at the same time...

FroZticles
11-16-2004, 06:00 PM
They won't get a pre-release copy if he does that it will be all over the net a few weeks later.

DK_Viceroy
11-16-2004, 10:27 PM
I said propably and they most likely won't be getting it till perhaps a month before it's out in cinemas.

FroZticles
11-16-2004, 10:47 PM
If its having a late 2005 early 2006 release they won't need it early.

DK_Viceroy
11-16-2004, 11:40 PM
They might since they'll need something to make the Models off since Modelling is the most time consuming part of Games.

Admiral Vostok
11-17-2004, 06:57 AM
Modelling is not the most time consuming part of games. At any rate they'll have plenty of time from after the proper release of ROTS before the game needs to be released, and one month isn't going to make a difference.

DarthMaulUK
11-17-2004, 09:51 AM
With Clone Campaigns. The Devs had just the art work for alot of the creatures in AOTC. They knew about the main characters, civs etc but for example. The Republic worker, was the waitress, which they didnt know.

Not sure how this new game will pan out. Especially as it will probably feature things from the TV cartoons.

DMUK

Admiral Vostok
11-17-2004, 10:18 AM
Not sure how this new game will pan out. Especially as it will probably feature things from the TV cartoons.Hmm, that's something I hadn't thought of... I hope the main focus is just the movies, as the cartoons sometimes try to take a bit too much license and include things that are either silly or just wrong...

DK_Viceroy
11-17-2004, 11:25 AM
Yoda does look funny in them however.

It does take Liberties yes one Fighter couldn't defeat millions of Genosian Fighters not in a millenium and certainly not in star wars.

FroZticles
11-17-2004, 06:04 PM
They did mention the cartoons along with the RTS. True Viceroy but 2 might be able to take out a million :)

Admiral Vostok
11-18-2004, 04:36 AM
It does take Liberties yes one Fighter couldn't defeat millions of Genosian Fighters not in a millenium and certainly not in star wars. Well if that one fighter is Anakin then it is slightly more feasible, but at any rate that's the least of their errors. The most glaring error to me was the fact that Battle Droids were piloting the Seismic Tank and not Pilot Droids, but there were others that were less obvious that I can't remember right now.

DK_Viceroy
11-18-2004, 05:18 AM
Vostok the only Visual dfiffernce between Pilot Droids and Battle droids are the Blue marking nothing too drastic.

When I said it wouldn't happen I meant regardless of the Pilot unless perhaps it was whichever gof you worship then maybe but The cartoon just has a rediculous amount of Fighters destroyed by Anakin with rediculous ease.

Admiral Vostok
11-18-2004, 07:03 PM
Indeed it is silly, no doubts there.

Indeed the difference between battle droids and pilot droids is the blue markings. It might not be anything drastic but it's precisely what they got wrong.

FroZticles
11-18-2004, 09:58 PM
Imagine the controversy if they put yellow markings and he was the pilot.... ;)

DK_Viceroy
11-18-2004, 10:19 PM
That would be different however Yellow Markings signigy Commander droids and they are different to the Standard issue ones.

joesdomain
11-18-2004, 11:39 PM
I hope the RTS game will include both trilogies and offer ground, air, sea, and space battles. Then again, I might not get this game if I can't save enough money for a new computer since I have an out of date computer.

Nairb Notneb
11-19-2004, 01:29 AM
But Joe, if you buy a computer now, by the time the game comes out it will be out of date then too. So, either wait longer, or wait longer I suppose.

If they wait long enough for this game to come out they might be able to put stuff in it from this supposed new TV series I keep hearing about. Whatever it will be. Or it could be an expansion pack.

Admiral Vostok
11-19-2004, 05:46 AM
Hmm, I think if they include stuff from the TV shows at all, it won't be confined to just an expansion pack. An expansion pack of just TV show stuff probably wouldn't sell well enough.

Joe, you've been complaining about having an out of date computer for over two years now. Start saving now and you should have one before the new RTS comes out.

DK_Viceroy
11-19-2004, 07:06 AM
Why would there be an expansion Pack unless there's gonna be another Movie there won't be an expansion pack what is their to expand on? The only remote chance of there being an Expansion Pack is one that adds in the Yuuzhan Vong and the Chiss perhaps it could add in some other things to allow the Civs to have that NJO flavour.

Arn't we geting a little ahead of ourselves to debate Expansion Packs though?

Nairb Notneb
11-19-2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
Arn't we geting a little ahead of ourselves to debate Expansion Packs though?
A very good point my friend. I was simply thinking ahead. I have no idea when this TV stuff is supposed to be coming out anyway, but it could be some time after the movie. If this RTS is a success then they may want to ride it out as much as they can with either different versions or with ex packs of some kind.

George Lucas is always thinking of marketing ideas, and this could be one.

They could easily create the standard game and then creat add on packs like EU, or different CIVS or something from this new TV stuff, etc.

Just a thought.

DK_Viceroy
11-19-2004, 08:51 AM
If there were and Expansion Pack it would propably be from the NJO series and add in the Yuuzhan Vong and the Chiss the reason why I add Chiss to the mix is because each civ so far has it's own Natural match while the Yuuzhan Vong without the Chiss would lack that and in the books of the NJO series the Chiss fare far better than the NR does against the Yuuzhan Vong making them a good candidate and their are quite a lot of refernces to Chiss Military equipment scattrered throughout.

What TV Show?

I also saw some images of this Ewok Advetures someone mentioned at the same tiome as the SWHS and they've put up Ewok Adventures Avatars on their site.

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 11:08 AM
No game has yet to be based around the NJO.

I can even say that the NJO is the most controversial EU serie. Too many people hate it. It willnever make it, whether you want it or no.

DK_Viceroy
11-19-2004, 11:57 AM
May I remind you an Expansion pack is just that an Expansion.

A NJO Expansion Pack would not make the entire game focus around the NJO it would merely add a NJO facet to the jewel that would be our Beloved and long awaited Star Wars RTS.

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 12:34 PM
I know what you said and I know what an Expansion's purpose is. You just fail to see that LEC has to make $$$

If for example, Battlefront had an NJO ex-pac, do you think the sales of that ex-pac will be great? I don't think so. Their target market will be a lot smaller.

You have to think realistically.

FroZticles
11-19-2004, 01:11 PM
Well Kotor was pure EU and it is there biggest game they have ever released. I don't mind a EU RTS but not as an expansion give it a home of its own but not the 2005 release maybe 2008. :p

I think LA will slowly bring people away from the movies in the coming years with there games seeing as theres only so much you can make from the films.

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 01:18 PM
KOTOR developped its own story and took what was good about the movies and put it into a game.

An NJO x-pac will put what was crappy about it into an x-pac. And by what was crappy, I mean everything about the NJO.

FroZticles
11-19-2004, 01:26 PM
You fail to see that they can only pump out so many games based on the movies. Once they have tried every angle they are going to need something new and as it stands there running out of angles.

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 01:32 PM
Once it's going to be over, it's going to be over. You fail to see that they're going to have such a small market it's ridiculous.

FroZticles
11-19-2004, 03:22 PM
I don't see the problem with a NJO game most games that come out now are EU. They try new things out if they fail they learn from there mistakes. Just because you don't like EU doesn't mean others agree with you. The only game based on the movies in the mainstream atm is battlefront. I don't want it mixed in with a RTS based on the movies but on its own is ok.

Nothing in Kotor is from the movies. It was based 4000 years before the Republic....

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by FroZticles
Nothing in Kotor is from the movies. It was based 4000 years before the Republic....

You don't understand. Kotor took the spirit of the movies, the way it touches your heart and put it in a game.


In the same way, just because you like EU doesn't mean a majority like EU or even the average fan will like EU. It would be LEC trying to satisfy the few NJO fans.

FroZticles
11-19-2004, 04:32 PM
Whats to say they cannot make NJO the same spirit as the movies? If the game is good people will buy. I'm not a huge fan of EU but I accept it because thats all thats out there right now. Also I question why you believe so many people hate NJO when you don't speak for all of us. Most people except 2 or 3 on the forums have no problem with it. Also I love the way you spin what I say to back your arugment.....

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 04:42 PM
The NJO already has a big backstory. A game about it would have to be based around that. Now, we know the NJO is almost nothing like the movies.

This is not whether or not people have a problem with it. It's whether or not they'll consider buying a game based around the NJO.

To take KOTOR as an example. When the average fan picks up the box he sees:

"You get to be a Jedi, wield a lightsaber and fight the Sith!"

When they're going to pick up an NJO game:

"You get to be a Jedi, wield a lightsaber and fight the Yuuzhan Vong, a nasty bunch of aliens from outer space!"

Gamer: What the hell? Is this really Star Wars?


Also note that all the mainstream SW games out there have a pretty big link to the movies. First KOTOR with its Jedi vs. Sith, JA with you slicing stormtroopers, Battlefront is obvious and the soon to be Republic Commando will feature Clone troopers fighting CIS droids and one of the Ep3 villain.

Not weird aliens from outer space.


Now, I might sound a purist but I enjoy some EU books and stories. I really liked the Thrawn Trilogy and the EU pre-Ep1. Sure it might contradict the movies but the stories are a lot more Star Wars-ish then the NJO will ever be.

FroZticles
11-19-2004, 07:51 PM
I think as soon as they see the lightsaber they will realise its Star Wars. Unless they are mentally disabled. Yes there all mainstream but only one of them is true to the movies.

lukeiamyourdad
11-19-2004, 08:09 PM
You're missing the point. There's a light sword in Halo 2 and it isn't Star wars at all. Why? Because it's about humans fighting aliens.

Was Star Wars ever about humans fighting aliens? No. In fact, I can almost say that Star Wars is one of the only sci-fi story involving humans fighting humans, not aliens. This is what really killed the NJO IMO. Mars invades the Earth...

FroZticles
11-19-2004, 11:35 PM
You don't like them fighting aliens..... wow I thought it was something huge. The movies are focusing on one timeline Republic vs Confed, Empire vs Rebels, Jedi vs Sith..... I don't see the problem with them fighting an invading galaxy of aliens. If it was based on Jedi vs Wookiees would you have the same beef?


Well Mars cannot invade Earth theres nothing living on Mars.... well not now anyways.

lukeiamyourdad
11-20-2004, 05:20 AM
Jedi vs. Wookiees:

It depends. If that's the main focus of the story, yes I would have. It makes no sense.

And obviously, you didn't know what I meant by "Mars invades the Earth"...

Admiral Vostok
11-20-2004, 06:11 AM
What Luke is trying to say is that NJO is an entirely different genre to Star Wars. Star Wars is soft sci-fi, a space opera - the fact it is set in space is inconsequential. NJO is hard sci-fi - the space setting is essential to the story, because such a bizarre opponent as the Vong could only be aliens from outer space.

This is not just Vostok the Purist being critical. The NJO authors themselves have intentionally made the NJO extraordinarily different so that it stands apart from the movies. This was there intention, so if you believe the NJO fits in perfectly well with the movies then the authors have failed.

Star Wars games that feature EU either partially or fully still resemble the movies for the most part. KOTOR is a great space opera in that it is more of a swashbuckling adventure than science fiction. Jedi Outcast is less so; although the story is more hard sci-fi than space opera, the makers of the game intentionally went against some of the established EU to make it at least look like the movies. But the NJO is so intentionally different thematically and aesthetically that it would be extremely hard to make a decent game of it under the Star Wars title.

KOTOR and JO resemble the movies, so people who have seen the movies will want to buy the game. NJO does not, and there are far, far less EU fans than movie fans. So it just isn't economically wise to make a game based on the NJO, as sales just won't match those of a game based on the movies.

DK_Viceroy
11-20-2004, 11:35 AM
I can actually see NJO fitting in with the movies not as in the sense Vostok the predictable thinks but in the sense that it binds together all of the other stories created by the movies I consider it a Tie Together in preparation for another branch off that will keep Star Wars going after the films stop because it may pain all of us to admit it that unless GL commits himself to creating an EPs 7,8 and 9 or moviefiying all of the EU the movies will stop regardless of whether we want them to or not it's a straight forward fact.

The NJO series I think is good because they were introduced a long time ago it's only know that they've manifested they came they saw they tried to conquer but they failed they continued on the Star Wars tradition that the jedi nearly always triumph even when they loose a great deal.

Admiral Vostok
11-20-2004, 12:04 PM
How can NJO possibly tie together the movies when it is set decades after the movies and when the NJO authors themselves have intentionally moved away from the themes of the movies? That really makes no sense at all.

DK_Viceroy
11-20-2004, 12:44 PM
I have never claimed to make sense.

I think that's what the NJO actually does I think it ties up all of the loose storylines and prepares for aqnother round of EU.

FroZticles
11-20-2004, 01:30 PM
Since JA left out some classic movie songs and did not have movie like cutscenes makes it not as close to the movies as Kotor.......

GL already said this is the last one. So after that the only thing keeping Star Wars alive is EU so some purists here really need to adapt.

DK_Viceroy
11-20-2004, 01:47 PM
I wouldn't say that Vostok will go on with his Cliche Spiel about how the movies will endure because they are the Movies they'll always be popular blah blah blah.

lukeiamyourdad
11-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Because nobody watches a classic like Casablanca anymore :rolleyes:

Classics are timeless. The Star Wars OT will be timeless.

FroZticles
11-20-2004, 03:38 PM
4,5,6 won't appeal to the next generation of kids as much as 1,2,3 will because of the technology side of things. Kids love light shows.

lukeiamyourdad
11-20-2004, 05:00 PM
So? Things come and go. One day, the Star Wars legacy will eventually end. but not now and not the next generation either. Something that has had such an impact on the pop culture up to this day is not easily forgotten.

BTW, how does it make EU more appealing to future generations of kids?
EU is mainly books and comics. The comics industry is in decline and kids don't read book anymore.

FroZticles
11-20-2004, 06:34 PM
EU is basically everything star wars except the movies and a few games. So kids already love it.

Darth Windu
11-21-2004, 12:33 AM
Okay folks, this is why the NJO would not work as part of a game and yet other pure-EU like KotOR does.

1. KotOR, like the films, is Fantasy, whereas NJO is Sci-Fi. The difference here is that in Fantasy it is the story that matters and things just work, it doesnt matter how, whereas Sci-Fi it does matter and hence has a different feel because it is more 'technical' and less 'flighty'

2. KotOR didnt have any film stats to fit in with, the NJO has to work in the confines oif the films (to an extent)

3. KotOR's storyline was and is malleable, all other EU is not

4. The NJO goes against the films. such as
- Films = the force is in everything
- NJO = a planet can strip something of the force
- Films = a lightsabre can cut anything
- NJO = a snake can stop a lightsabre
and there are more examples

5. Even if NJO was used in games, it wouldnt be the same as the books. For example, in JA Corran Horn is a Jedi teacher 3 years after the 'Academy Trilogy', and the Massassi Temple he destroyed in 'I, Jedi' still stands

FroZticles
11-21-2004, 01:51 AM
I was wondering when the cavarly would show up.

I don't see the problem, how can you say something will not work when they have not even tried it yet. Star Wars is sci-fi whether you accept it or not its more sci-fi then fantasy. EU is all about the story otherwise EU would not exist. Kotor is EU why are you trying to justify it as otherwise?

I'm a Star Wars fan I like everything about it, the boundaries most people in this forum set is very amusing.

Admiral Vostok
11-21-2004, 05:28 AM
Froz, it takes more than just having a space setting to make something science fiction. Many people don't realise this, so mistakenly label Star Wars as science fiction. However as others have said here it is more a fantasy than a sci-fi. George Lucas himself has said it - listen to the classic trilogy's DVD commentaries or watch the documentary on the special features DVD for proof.

EU Fans have a belief that if something stops having more stories added to it then it stops being good. This is of course complete rubbish. Yes, films fade from popularity the longer they are out, but they certainly don't stop being good, and most movie fans don't need an accompanying EU to enjoy their favourite movies for years to come.

I'm not just a Star Wars Fan, but a fan of many different movie sagas, and the one I think is the most relevant comparison to my argument is the Back To The Future trilogy. I still love watching those movies and always will, but I don't need an EU to expand on Doc and Marty's other adventures to keep them interesting. Apparently neither do any of the trilogy's other thousands of fans, since a Back To The Future EU just doesn't exist.

I think it's kind of sad that people don't find the movies enjoyable enough and have to resort to the second-rate EU authors to keep their short attention spans stimulated. Don't fool yourself that the EU keeps Star Wars alive: it just isn't true.

lukeiamyourdad
11-21-2004, 07:27 AM
Hey look at the Lord of the Rings. Nobody expanded anything beyond the books written by Tolkien and it's still the second most popular books after the Bible.



Now, for people who have played KOTOR ONCE and never made a decent comparison between it and the movies, I'll do it for you.

KOTOR-You play a Jedi hero with a dark heritage.
MOVIES-Luke Skywalker is a Jedi hero who has a dark heritage.

KOTOR-There is a Jedi princess(Bastilla Shan), the hope of the galaxy, that you must rescue from thugs.
MOVIES-Leia is a princess that was rescued from the Empire.

KOTOR-A scoundrel(Mission Vao) who's accompanied by a Wookiee(Zaalbar).
MOVIES-A scoundrel(Han Solo) who's accompanied by a Wookiee(Chewbacca).

KOTOR-A protocol droid(Hk-47) and an astromech droid(T3-M4).
MOVIES-A protocol droid(C3PO) and an astromech droid(R2-D2).

KOTOR-A villain with an unknown injurie(Darth Malak).
MOVIES-A villain with an unkown injurie(until ep3, Darth Vader).

KOTOR-Republic forces fight masked Sith Soldiers.
MOVIES-Rebel forces fight masked Imperial Soldiers.

Note here that the Republic soldier's helmet in KOTOR is almost the same as the Rebel trooper's on the Tantive IV.

KOTOR-A hutt that organises the races on Tatooine.
MOVIES-Jabba organises the race in Ep1.

KOTOR-An apprentice to the Dark Lord of the Sith who wields a double bladed lightsaber(Darth Bandon).
MOVIES-An apprentice to the Dark Lord of the Sith who wields a double bladed lightsaber(Darth Maul).

KOTOR-Swarms of endless Sith fighters.
MOVIES-Swarms of endless Tie fighter.

Do I need to go further?

Oh and by the way, I've played KOTOR over 16 times, it's my favorite game of all time so I know enough about it.

FroZticles
11-21-2004, 08:55 PM
Vostok- EU keeps people wanting more. The movies can get a little boring after a while especially when you know it word for word. EU adds that bit extra so people keep consuming there products. Don't blame the fans for liking EU and the films because the same guy who made the films also made EU the first time he let someone use star wars licensing.

Luke- GL let people expand his creation by letting them use star wars material. Where as Tolkien is not alive to sell his story to people who want to take it further. I'm sure Tolkien would not sell it either and let his books hold there own.

I repeat, Kotor is EU why are you trying to justify it as otherwise?

Oh and by the way, I've played KOTOR over 30 times. No matter how much you play it, it still keeps you entertained. Plus I'm still playing it at the moment.

saberhagen
11-22-2004, 02:25 AM
Less is more.

The more EU material is produced, the lower the overall quality of Star Wars material gets. EU is just for a hard core of sci-fi nerds who want lots of extraneous detail of the kind that makes films slow, boring and unwatchable. There is a niche market for this, which can be filled by comics and books because they are cheap and easy to produce. A computer game is much more difficult and expensive to make, so needs a bigger mainstream audience to recover its costs and make a profit.

lukeiamyourdad
11-22-2004, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by FroZticles


I repeat, Kotor is EU why are you trying to justify it as otherwise?


For f*ck's sake Froz, who said it wasn't EU?

I have never, ever said, once that games were not EU, I have not said once that I hated EU. What I did say, is that I hate the NJO and I don't want a game based around the NJO .

Clear?

Now, KOTOR is EU, never have I said it otherwise, you assumed that by me saying it ressembles the movies it automatically means KOTOR=Movies. No.

What my point has been since the beginning and what others helped in the argument but yet you ignore every time is that KOTOR takes what is good about the movies, twist it to fit their story but not too much and put it in an RPG.
It keeps the movie feel.

The NJO does not do this. It creates another world, way different from the movies which is why a lot of people will have a hard time to identify it to Star Wars.

Admiral Vostok
11-22-2004, 04:46 AM
Froz, EU does not keep people wanting more. It keeps EU Fans wanting more, and they're only a subset of people. Most people in general have seen the movies and that is good enough for them; EU Fans are only a relatively small minority.

Saberhagen really hit the proverbial nail on the head with his post. It's a simple fact of economics, and basing a computer game on the NJO (which, as Luke and I are trying to point out is much different to the movies than existing EU-based games) is just not smart marketing.

That's what it comes down to; not a matter of opinion, just a matter of money. As such I'm secure in the fact they won't ever make an NJO-based computer game.

lukeiamyourdad
11-22-2004, 04:53 AM
Looks like you haven't left yet eh? :D

DK_Viceroy
11-22-2004, 05:12 AM
He propably just wanuse a bit of havoc before he departs.

The whole IDEA is that it would be an EXPANSION PACK adding in NJO content but not making the game all NJO.

Need i say it any siompler.

Vostok your only saying EU fans are the Minority I could ask Loads of people and they'd say they're EU fans Vostok you need to wake up whether your an EU fan or a Movie fan your still a Star Wars fan you shouldn't try to seperate the two to do that is sheer arrogance and stupidity.

lukeiamyourdad
11-22-2004, 05:53 AM
Oy...

An ex-pac would be the same. Waste of money like saber said.

So if I poll EU fans and the result shows that 99% really like EU it makes for an excellent representation of the majority of Star Wars fan.

The majority are the people who watch the movies and probably never heard of EU. You can make a poll outside a game store about the NJO and I can garranty you, not a lot of people will know the right answers.

We can indeed seperate the two. Never did Vostok say that an EU fan was not a Star Wars fan.

The fact remains that many Star Wars fan know nothing of EU, even less the NJO in particular.

Nairb Notneb
11-22-2004, 08:08 AM
Did I start all of this when I mentioned the possibility of an ex-pac? Sorry. Listen, there is a huge problem with having EU specific x-pacs.
Mainstream Star Wars fans (not the people here on the Forums) don't even know what EU stands for, therefore they have no idea that there is more to the story than the movies. When I say "I'd love to see Thrawn in Revenge of the Sith", they answer "Who's Thrawn and what's Revenge of the Sith?". Mainstream fans walk through the aisles of Wal Mart and just happen to see a Star Wars game that they haven't seen before and buy it. The die hards (that's us) know about a game while its being created (like this new RTS) and will buy it the day before it can be bought and have it beat before we get home.

The people that have knowledge of the EU, and the people of a vast knowledge of EU is a very limited number, very small sales. Marketing a game requires big numbers, make a game that will sell to the most people. That's why they keep making the JK series because 3D shooter sell and the JK series is hot. After KOTOR 2 comes out we will probably see JK:JA 2 the next year. Plus more Battlefront stuff. If something works, make more of it. It seems that's what game companies do.

DK_Viceroy
11-22-2004, 09:20 AM
Thrawn is Legendary.

To say a small proportion of the People know about EU is merely another way of Purists putting down EU.

While Saying people who know Enough EU to win several contests 6 times over like myself are few is correct.

saberhagen
11-22-2004, 11:24 AM
Even leaving aside the distinction between EU and purist, only fairly hardcore Star Wars fans have heard of Thrawn. (I'm not into EU at all but I've at least heard of him and have some idea who he is). Ultimately that's still a minority of people.

Pretty much everyone has heard of Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Obi Wan Kenobi etc. Those characters are firmly in the mainstream of popular culture. You don't even have to have seen the films to have heard of them. The influence of the OT is still felt everywhere. The same is not true of EU. I don't think there's much chance of Thrawn ever appearing in or being mentioned in The Simpsons or South Park for example. No politician will ever try to insult a rival by comparing him to Thrawn in the way that Norman Tebbitt was known as Darth Vader. I knew someone who was a captain in the US marines and he said that the command ship of their fleet where all the highest ranking officers were was unofficially known as "The Death Star". I could go on and on...

lukeiamyourdad
11-22-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
To say a small proportion of the People know about EU is merely another way of Purists putting down EU.


Among my close friends, I'm the only one who's a hardcore SW fan. All the others love the movies and play the video games.

Yet none of them know who Thrawn is or who the Yuuzhan Vong are.

Sure, if you ask the people in your SW fan club who Thrawn is...why not just guess the answer:dozey:

FroZticles
11-22-2004, 06:05 PM
EU has never had the platform of the big screen it only has its games, books, tv shows from time to time and thats about it. Do you really think the hardcore gaming community really cares about EU material as long as the game plays well and has some nice eye candy its gold. By the sounds of things we are getting a EU RTS for 2005.

Saber about your nerd comments your just as bigger nerd as all EU fans because your here.

If they made a game about Thrawn and Yuuzhan Vong I'm sure a lot more people would know who they are. People loved JA which is all about a Jedi who has to stop Tavion from stealing all force powers from different locations to resurrect a dead Sith. If they can buy into that I'm sure NJO is no problem.

Darth Windu
11-22-2004, 08:13 PM
Why don't EU fanatics ever listen to reason?

Let's look at it this way children -
Movies = Well Known
Well Known = Large Market
Large Market = Potential Profit
Potential Profit = Creation of a Game

EU = Not Well Known
Not Well Known = Small Market
Small Market = Not Profitable
Not Profitable = No Game

Can you two understand that or must I make it more simple? The point here is that if Lucasarts are going to spend a huge amount of money on creating a video game, they will want to make as much profit as possible which means aiming it at the biggest audience possible, which hence means basing it on the films.

Games such as Jedi Academy cannot be based on the OT (although I would love to see a PT version) because there was only one Jedi, hence it must be EU. An RTS on the other hand has a great deal of material to draw on, such as the Battle of Naboo, Hoth, Endor, Yavin, Geonosis and the battles in RotS.

The fact is, even if an EU x-pac was going to be created, it too would be aimed at the biggest audience so it would have to at least partly resemble the films, much like JA.

Look at it this way, how well do you think a JA-type game based on the NJO would sell? No lightsabre battles and wierd looking aliens with snakes that can stop lightsabres - it would be a colossal failture.

FroZticles
11-22-2004, 08:37 PM
Where did I state I was a EU fanatic?

The only real thing in JA that resembled the films were the lightsabers and Luke Skywalker.

Windu take a look at the template you were seriously hoping LA would ring you up and buy your idea. Now that would have been a colossal failure.

Windu's template= crap
Not well known= microscopic market
Microscopic market= virtually no profit
Virtually no profit= Lucasarts kicking Windu out the door

And you flame me about liking the idea of an NJO game. LOL

DK_Viceroy
11-22-2004, 10:32 PM
Indeed Frox I agree wholheratedly with about everything in that post.

Isn't making money all about taking risks?

They could make Millions from an NJO EX-pack you never know.

Why does that rehtoric sound familiar any idea you don't like you just pass it off as Truist's not listening to reason. Hah I laugh at fools who do that:bdroid2:

Darth Windu
11-23-2004, 12:32 AM
FroZ-
The only real thing in JA that resembled the films were the lightsabers and Luke Skywalker.
And Yavin IV, and Hoth, and Coruscant. That, however, is irrelevant because as i stated, it was impossible to set JA in the OT timeline because there only was one Jedi, therefore no Jedi Academy. Having said that, I hope LA make a prequel version of the game.

Windu take a look at the template you were seriously hoping LA would ring you up and buy your idea. Now that would have been a colossal failure.
A few things i should point out here. As much as you want me to flame you, I actually found your post ammusing. I never expected or even desired LA to 'ring me up and buy my idea'. I made the template because there was no RTS news and I would be honoured if LA decided to use it, but no payment would be expected. Not everyone is as greedy or synical as you FroZ

(1)Windu's template= crap
(2)Not well known= microscopic market
(3)Microscopic market= virtually no profit
(4)Virtually no profit= Lucasarts kicking Windu out the door
1. That is your opinion, not fact - there's a difference
2. My template is not well known, but all of the units that appear in the films are in my template, and it does not radically differ from any other RTS. Therefore, the truth is in fact that it would be well known with a large market
3. See above post
4. I never would have been in the door, so how could i get kicked out? As i said, i designed my template for fun, if you dont like it - fine, i really couldnt care less.

What you need to learn FroZ is twofold.
1. Stop flaming people - you are more of a joke than a threat, and
2. You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion - you arent always right, no-one is, and the sooner you learn that the better


Viceroy-
They could make Millions from an NJO EX-pack you never know
Of course it's possible, but then almost everything is. It is possible that i could grow wings tomorrow and gain the ability to fly and use the force, but it's not going to happen. The thing that is relevant here are the Laws of Probability - while it is possible a NJO x-pac could make millions, the probability of that happening is miniscule

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 12:42 AM
This is gonna be a fun Vostok free 7 weeks. I do hope he enjoys Europe in the mean time I'll have fun without the Purist Sage.

Actually Froz may be mistaking you for Boxboy since he is the only one who even hinted at charging for his template.

While the Possibility of a NJO Ex-Pack is low as you say the possibility of one with some NJO content but mostly other EU Content is quite high and as to the chances of it making Miniscule Profit is a farce The Brand of Star Wars could be used to sell fried Manure on a stick as a food product if it was called Offical Star Wars Hutt Jerky or something like that.

I doubt a NJO Ex-Pack could be as much as a disaster of Force Commander.

Windu you should remeber it's not actually LA that's making the game or have you forgtooten it's Petroglyph which is ran by the same people who created the CnC series they can make anything a hit including an NJO ex-pack so don't leap to the conclusion that they can't do it.

FroZticles
11-23-2004, 02:53 AM
I don't flame anyone I simply state my opinion. I state my opinion and someone doesn't like it I get jumped by basically the same people everytime (which doesn't faze me because I don't crack under pressure and will fight to the end).

I find it funny how you say I think everything I post is fact which is coming you of all people on this forum. LOL you saying your not flaming me about that post..... well I consider cheap shots and low blows as a flame post so you suck at trying to cover it up. All the films units appear in your template yes but the horrible gameplay and copyrighted material LA would have about 5 law suits if they followed your template to scale. Go back to your delusional state and wait by the phone for LA to give you a job at least then you were stubborn but reasonable now your just childish.

Flame wars over EU again!!!! :)

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 03:47 AM
You can tell we're happy that Vostok's gone the Purist Sage was the Restraining Bolt here.

The Agruments will be more balanced this time since it'll be a 3 on 3

Windu you are flaming Froz Not everyone is as greedy or synical as you FroZ

May I also point out to windu since the Spelling Nazi is not present that you spell Synical as you put it with a C not an S so it should be Cynical

This will be a fun 7 weeks in a way I hope Vostok doesn't find an internet Cafe by the time he gets back we'll have windu in the stocks or ripping his hair out.:D :bdroid2:

lukeiamyourdad
11-23-2004, 04:52 AM
I still live and breathe.

First off:

Froz: Your opinion came out as an insult. If you can't post an opinion without insulting someone, don't.

(1)Windu's template= crap
(2)Not well known= microscopic market
(3)Microscopic market= virtually no profit
(4)Virtually no profit= Lucasarts kicking Windu out the door


Let me take this as an example. While point 2 and 3 are not flames, point 1 and 4 are. Windu might have taken your opinion more seriously if you didn't flame.


Viceroy: F*ck stop mentioning f*cking Puzzlebox! He's been gone for who knos how many f*cking months! Get over it already!

Sorry about that. It's just really annoying that you can't simply get over someone in an internet forum. Sheesh.

Windu: Answering to flames with flames is not the right way.

Try avoiding things such as this:
you are more of a joke than a threat,

Now to whoever says JA SP was good, I'm just going to answer this:

:eyeraise:

Now, people love JA because of the multiplayer aspect that allowed customization of your character and lightsaber. They liked MP. Most of the people I know, both at the SWK and JK.net think the JA story was pretty lame. They did NOT buy into that. Your argument is based on who knows what stats.

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 06:00 AM
I use him as an example. One of someone we should all never Aspire to become and the Avatar of All Arrogance and All that is Horrible AKA THE DARK SIDE

I'd agree with Point 4 since Windu has been a little smug in the area of his Template being accepted and since I didn't get involved in Template Flapping I Can quite freely complain about others.

Nairb Notneb
11-23-2004, 07:58 AM
What is the recurring theme in the games that are successful? Playability. Ease of modification. New features. Familiarity with the movies and past games.

How big is the EU? Not that big in the mainstream. To base a game solely on EU will not work. It must come from some base. It has to branch from the movies or from a previous game. How well did JK:Mysteries of the Sith do? The problems with it were that it required a version of Dark Forces to be able to play it and it was based on Mara Jade. Most people have no clue who she is.

To prove my point I will share a personal story with you all.

Being the big Star Wars geek that I am, I wanted to name my kid after a character. I didn't want it to be obvious to the average Joe (or my wife because she would never go for it if she knew) so I suggested Mara. My wife loved the name and so it was. After four years only one person has said anything to me about her name, and every one that knows me knows that I am a die hard SW fan. The EU is not mainstream, it does not carry the fan base that the Movies does. The majority of the world is oblivious to the fact that Palpatine is the Emperor. They suspect it, but they don't "know" it. This is reality. There are some people on this forum that don't believe that, I've been to the thread (God help those people).

The NJO would be an ok addition as a "toy box" character or small civ type thing, or scenario, maybe even it will work in the years after ROTS has been out, like in 2008.

But when people get a game with EU based characters and vehicles, they think that they were created just for those games and that they are new items. I've done that in the past, until I learned better.

lukeiamyourdad
11-23-2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
I use him as an example. One of someone we should all never Aspire to become and the Avatar of All Arrogance and All that is Horrible AKA THE DARK SIDE

Just another argument for me. You sound like a 10 year old. Stop it. It has gotten very annoying.

Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
I'd agree with Point 4 since Windu has been a little smug in the area of his Template being accepted and since I didn't get involved in Template Flapping I Can quite freely complain about others.

How does it justify flaming? Not at all. We should not openlyflame someone or counter flame someone for no apparent reason. Windu came in here pretty unhostile.


Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
Being the big Star Wars geek that I am, I wanted to name my kid after a character. I didn't want it to be obvious to the average Joe (or my wife because she would never go for it if she knew) so I suggested Mara.

I hope it was a girl ;) No seriously, Mara is a fairly common name. There was a girl in my old high school whose name was Mara an she was born before the character was created.
If you named her Jaida, it would have more strength to the argument since it's a pretty uncommon name.

But Mara is a beautiful name :) Glad your wife liked it :)

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 11:39 AM
I have my Opinions do not flame them.

Mara is a nice name there are some names in there that arn't strange like Luke. Anakin is pushing it a little Ben as in obi is ok.

I didn't like the pair of them flapping Templates around it seemed the height of Arrogance and while the good ideas were good it meant LA couldn't use em without long negotiations.

lukeiamyourdad
11-23-2004, 11:49 AM
How seriously? I do not know a lot about international laws but since he did not put a copyright on his ideas, people can rip-off them.

I could be really wrong about this...


I have my Opinions do not flame them.

There's opinion and simple annoyance.

Technically, it is ok to flame an opinion.
Look, attacking someone's idea is not like attacking the person.

If for example, I say:

-Your idea is stupid.

This is ok as long as you have an argument to back it up.

On the other hand if I say:

-You're stupid.

That's attacking the person and no argument can justify it.

saberhagen
11-23-2004, 12:35 PM
I'm a nerd. I like trainspotting. I'm getting the shopping for my mum.

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 11:41 PM
We like you anyway saber.

Luke I think Intellectual Property has some sort of Copyright anyway Puzzlebox put a link to it somewhere but I'd tather not dredge through bad memories for that link.

Darth Windu
11-24-2004, 12:59 AM
saber - great post, hope to hear more of your exciting adventures in the future :)

viceroy - how is my creation of a template arrogant? As I have explained, I created it because it was fun and there was no news on the RTS front. In addition, it has the effect of showing other people what i would like to see in a Star Wars RTS.

With my spelling, yes, it was incorrect - my bad.

In relation to an x-pac, I agree, it is far more likely that an EU x-pac rather than a specific NJO x-pac would be created, however the odds are still against it.

FroZ - why would LucasArts get sued for making a Star Wars game? You have to remember that every RTS created rips-off ideas from the games that have come before - this is because the genre is constantly refined and changed, and so if one game comes out with a great idea, it is natural that other companies will follow. Aside from that, i seriously doubt that you can actually copyright a game feature.

Go back to your delusional state and wait by the phone for LA to give you a job at least then you were stubborn but reasonable now your just childish.
Why are you so obsessed with me getting a job with LA? Funnily enough, although i know a lot about computers, i'm far more involved in politics than technology.

FroZticles
11-24-2004, 01:32 AM
They may not get sued but the games you based your template on your not that great. I think you pulled out all the worst features of about 5 games through them together to make a below average template which many of us have told you numerous times.

Ignore Viceroy he is still bitter most of us including me rejected his template. Maybe if he didn't add 15 EU civs most of which I have never even heard of before I may have taken an interest but I don't think I got through the first page without giving up and declaring a lost course. No offence :D

Nairb Notneb
11-24-2004, 02:05 AM
Its been proven by the game makers that the best items/ideas to put in the SW games come from the movies themselves. What locations do they always go to in the games? Always places mentioned (if not casually) in the movies. It is always the same places, over and over again. I mean, if 1000 systems have joined the Confederacy, then there have to be more than the 10 planets or so that were mentioned by name in the movies right? Why do the games keep going to those same systems? Because they are familiar to the players and familiarity breeds sales.

I agree that an EU x-pac might sell, but an x-pac that focus on only one storyline of EU is likely I believe. Its to finite.

DK_Viceroy
11-24-2004, 06:07 AM
I actually began working on another Template after I finished the other one I finished it ages ago I was recently considering posting it up but of course with the new anouncement it's obviously Redundant.

Frozticles I onlt had 10 civs in total but remeber that was at the time when we were all working with 8-10 being the Magic number of civs.

It comes to something When I have to start poitning out spelling I think I'l correct everyone while the Forum Sage is off swiling around Europe I wonder if I'll run into him on the streets of Newcastle Upon Tyne I wonder.

lukeiamyourdad
11-24-2004, 11:37 AM
Just because you've just learned how to post properly doesn't give you the right to correct other people.

Even with spelling problems, Windu's(in fact anyone's) posts have always been readable. Go back a few weeks and look at your own posts before trying to elevate yourself to a higher level then other people.

DK_Viceroy
11-24-2004, 11:40 AM
It's nice to correct other people's spelling for a change rather than have other people do it.

lukeiamyourdad
11-24-2004, 11:42 AM
Meditate on that and start correcting people the day we've all forgotten how horrible your old posts were.

Until then, you have no one to correct.

DK_Viceroy
11-24-2004, 11:46 AM
When did today become be mean and nasty day?

lukeiamyourdad
11-24-2004, 11:57 AM
I'm just pissed at how you claim Box to be think he's superior to others while at the same time, you're doing the exact same thing regarding spelling.

DK_Viceroy
11-24-2004, 12:09 PM
I never claim to be superior at spelling I am superior at very few things and I do not count spelling among them, EU and Ancient Mythology is another matter however.

FroZticles
11-24-2004, 03:45 PM
Corecting poeple is uncool so stopp dooing itt..... :D

FroZticles
11-24-2004, 11:16 PM
Also correct is missing an r and the "o" and "e" in people needs to be switched. Ohhhhh and I misspelt on purpose if you didn't realise :rolleyes:

saberhagen
11-25-2004, 02:57 AM
owned :)

DK_Viceroy
11-25-2004, 03:51 AM
As to what are you replying?