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yaebginn
07-02-2004, 11:26 AM
Eventually America is going to stop being the best. Hopefully, it'll happen way after I'm dead, but it has to eventually. So what do you think will be our succesor? Name a specific country.

Luke'sMaster
07-02-2004, 11:56 AM
what do u mean by "America is the best" like what is it the best in? And what will the succesor be better than america at? More fat people? (just the truth nothing against them or anything)

yaebginn
07-02-2004, 12:07 PM
It is a fact that America is the most powerful country. It is the strongest and really new. Thats pretty impressive. I'm sorry if I offended you by calling it the best. I forget that there are other coutnries here. But face it, we are startistically the best.

Luke'sMaster
07-02-2004, 02:47 PM
Actually no you didn't offend me because I live in the U.S. myself and it's also another fact that they have the most obeise people (one that I am not) but it is said 2/3 people in America are obeise.

Alegis
07-02-2004, 08:38 PM
2/3 is bull****. I know i dont live in the US but ive been there, seen a lot of stuff etc. 2/3 is a very big exaggeration

i think usa will stay like that (the powa)

yaebginn
07-02-2004, 11:00 PM
I dont agree with two thirds either. I mean, there is some fat people, but not as large as two thirds. Thats just impossible.

GlobalStrike
07-03-2004, 05:02 PM
Yeah, i'm not so sure about 2/3 either. I hope it's just an exaggeration. :jawa :jawa

Luke'sMaster
07-03-2004, 09:25 PM
Hmmm well I guess u can't trust what you hear on the news at all but I would atleast think it was somewhere around 1/3 and you have to remember, there are a boat load of people who live in America and there are also a boatload of fast food restraunts that are trying to make some money off these people and so far Mcdonald is not gonna be working in a farm for much longer if he keeps making this money in America (scuse my punn)

obi
07-05-2004, 07:12 AM
You people are crazy.



I'll leave it at that.

=)

Luke'sMaster
07-05-2004, 12:01 PM
Maybe but your the super Mod so you have complete control over us and I guess its our job to be crazy on this forum. Although if u want me to stop being crazy just pm me and I will obey your EVERY command. (well maybe not EVERY)

Mort-Hog
07-05-2004, 12:48 PM
America has a higher crime rate than any other European country, more gun crimes than all of Europe combined and an ever-worsening racial poverty situation.

I'd think the obesity is probably more than 2/3. It's just that you're used to seeing fat people, and so fat is normal.

America has a government controlled by companies and corporations, with a chimp as President. America has a laughable democracy, without a single realistic left-wing party, with only backwards conservatives. America runs by the same constitution has it did 200 years ago, completely ignoring what values and norms are applicable today (the best example being the 'right to bear arms', a constitutional right that serves no purpose today). In fact, the concept of a constitution is highly undemocratic.

America still has the death penalty, with no signs of abolishing it in the forseeable future, and is one of the very few countries in the world that executes children (together with Pakistan and Nigeria. Even China don't execute minors).

America is ridiculously individualistic and does little to help its citizens, without any form of national health care and a highly class divided education system.

But America will fall, if things don't change radically, because the American economy is based on oil. And oil is running out, quickly. Without oil, America (and Europe) would collapse.

Doomie
07-05-2004, 01:30 PM
wow... you suddenly turned this thread a little more serious...

yaebginn
07-05-2004, 02:10 PM
for starters, Bush isnt a chimp. He may resemble a monkey in some physical features, but he is an itelligent leader. The constitution is still the same because it works. why change what was good? second ammenedment is fine. and why should america bow to other beliefs? Homsexuality? Never! We arent like Europe or any of those other countries. We are different. Bush is against abortion (the killing of children) but the death penalty is good. It keeps criminals from coming back and killing more. The death penalty is good. It does help its citizens and we're all doing fine. Where, I ask, are you from? If from America, then you're pretty screwed up and obviously dislike your country and want it to be like the others overseas.

GlobalStrike
07-05-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
wow... you suddenly turned this thread a little more serious...



You could say that again. :jawa :jawa

Luke'sMaster
07-05-2004, 03:25 PM
Bush.....a chimp...... I guess I could see how some would think that....lol

Mort-Hog
07-05-2004, 07:50 PM
Yes, I'm sure Bush can't spell "intelligent" either.

Right. So you're saying American society is exactly the same as it was 200 years ago. Why give those women the right to vote? Why give them equality in the work place? Why ensure that ethnic minorities aren't discriminated against?
They never had any of that 200 years ago, and they were fine!

Wake up. They were not fine. It is not good. Society changes, people change, values change. The only thing that doesn't change is the constitution, forcing way outdated values onto the country.

The arguments against homosexuality are entirely religious. The state should be totally separate from the church, and so there is no reason why the state should have any opinion on homosexuality at all. You don't even have to get into 'moral' arguments, even though they are pretty ridiculous, to realise that there is no reason why there should be any legal discrimination against homosexuals.

Yes, America is 'different'. America is several decades in the past. American conservatives want to pretend that this is still the 1950s.

The aim of every civilised country is to reach a state where they can abolish the death penalty. Even China have been reducing their executions.
The death penalty simply doesn't work.
If the death penalty is supposed to 'frighten' criminals away, why does America still have such a high murder rate? Why does America have more murders than any European country, countries that have long since abolished the death penalty?
Perhaps it is because they have realised that 'frightening' criminals away simply doesn't work, and that they have combatted the causes of crime. Providing help and support and welfare for its citizens, so they don't feel the need to commit crimes.

Being a blind flag-waving patriot does nothing but irritate people. It is not useful. America has problems, serious problems, and countries overseas have solved those problems in their countries. Looking to them is the way forward. The world is moving on, and America is being left behind.

yaebginn
07-05-2004, 09:21 PM
actually, there is a system set up so that you can ammend the constitution. so its still all good. Alot of the reason against gay marriage is religious, but its also for some others. Such as health. Gays are a large spreader of STDs. And you still havent answered what country you're from. Embarrassed? Think that I'll find way more things wrojng with your country than you can against mine? Death Penalty isnt to scare away murderers, its to eliminate them.

ET Warrior
07-06-2004, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
but its also for some others. Such as health. Gays are a large spreader of STDs. Death Penalty isnt to scare away murderers, its to eliminate them.

Heterosexuals are ALSO a large spreader of STD's. Heteros pass on std's when they have unprotected sex just as often as gays do. So that argument is invalid.

Yes, it eliminates them, and what a good job it does helping with things. I mean, it's totally reduced the murder rates in the US. Except it hasn't.

Mort-Hog
07-06-2004, 06:05 AM
Yes, it kills individual criminals, but what exactly is the point?

The crime has already been comitted and the victim is dead. Nothing you can do can change that. The individual criminal is irrelevant, it is the system that is important.
You are doing nothing to prevent crimes being committed in the future. You are doing nothing to stop people becoming criminals in the first place. If people don't have the reason or the means to kill, they won't kill.

The way to combat crime is to look at why and how people commit crimes and by making/changing laws to affect that. There is a well documented link between crime and poverty. Or perhaps we need to look at America's ridiculus gun laws.

But wait! that's a constitutional right, that is!
How easy exactly is it to change the constitution? It isn't. And sometimes that's a good thing, as curious George wants to make homosexual marriage illegal.
But if you can change it, why not abolish it?

I propose that instead of having a universal 'constitution', each party has their own 'constitution' and outlines what they will and will not do (of course, first you'd have to have parties that aren't exactly the same). That way, when you vote, you vote in a 'constitution' and that Government has to follow their constitution.
This way, voters know exactly what they're voting for and what that party is likely to do if elected.
And also, that way, voting is far more important. A new party will be a completely different system and the country will be run in a completely different way. The way the country is run is decided by the people.
That is democracy, is it not?
Having a constitution, forcing a party to do something or rather, even though it might go against party policy, that is not democracy. The people have no control over the constitution.

A 'constitution' does make sense, though, in a union of different countries, as in the EU, so that Europe is all run the same way. The EU isn't run by winner-takes-all like in the US, but rather the number of votes decides how much power a certain party has.

Mort-Hog
07-06-2004, 06:08 AM
Also, what difference does it make what country I live in?

I am not a patriot, I do not blindly 'love' whichever landmass I happened to be born on.

You were saying that America is better than every other country in the world. I am saying that it isn't.
Now I could go through every single country and express how it is "better" than America, but that is tedious.

For sake of argument, you can assume that I am from... Bulgaria. Yes.

I'll pick another once you've exhausted that one.

Doomie
07-06-2004, 07:24 AM
Er... Is bulgaria a communist land? Cause when i look at your avatar... Anyway, mort-hog says exactly what i want to say only he does it better so i'll leave it to him :D

I think this thread is ready to move to the senate chambers on JK2.net...

yaebginn
07-10-2004, 02:04 PM
America is the strongest. It is the most powerful. I was wrong in using the term 'best' because that is basd on opinion. But statistically, it is.

Luke'sMaster
07-10-2004, 04:08 PM
statistically on what? Power? Nukes?

ET Warrior
07-10-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Luke'sMaster
statistically on what? Power? Nukes?

Obesity :indif:

Luke'sMaster
07-10-2004, 05:19 PM
I already mentioned that above if u havent been paying attention.

ET Warrior
07-10-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Luke'sMaster
I already mentioned that above if u havent been paying attention.

Yes. I noticed the talk about America's obesity problem already. You'll note that I have been posting in this thread, so i'm obviously paying attention. :dozey:

Lyrnx
07-11-2004, 08:10 AM
The state should be totally separate from the church, and so there is no reason why the state should have any opinion on homosexuality at all.

2 things...

You forget that
1. THE STATES WERE MADE BY THE CHURCH!!!

and
2. HOMOSEXUALITY IS BOTH WRONG AND AGAINST GOD WHO HELPED FOUND AMERICA IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Not to be rude in anything but America is beginning to stray from God....

NOTE: For those of you who don't know.. Christianity is not a religion, but a lifestyle...


Lyrnx

Doomie
07-11-2004, 09:35 AM
Alright...

1. that may be, but one of the points in the thread was that america's laws and stuff are based around an old system. My country, holland, was once a tiny state controlled by a celtic barbarian king, but that doesn't mean we go around worshipping oaktrees, chopping off heads where we go. I hope this illustrates what i mean.

2. as an atheist, i can safely say that in my vision, if there was a god, he probably didn't create the USA, and if so, made a mistake doing so. I'm not against the states in particualr but those points that Mort-hog named where pretty good ones... and in my atheistic vision, nothing is wrong with homosexuality. they can't deny who they are...

Another NOTE: Christianity includes a God. Where i come from, that's called a religion. (or actually religie but let's not get picky here). Humanism, that's a lifestyle.

(cuz it doesn't have a God.)

ET Warrior
07-11-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
NOTE: For those of you who don't know.. Christianity is not a religion, but a lifestyle...

Really. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=christianity):dozey:

yaebginn
07-11-2004, 01:48 PM
that said nothing to prove lyrnx wrong. It said something about the christian religion. But not christianity. It is a lifestyle. This has not much to do with anything, but the word christian was inteneded as an insult. The romans, I believe called christians that to make fun of them, calling them little Jesus's. But we accepted it as our name. a little fun fact.

Doomie
07-11-2004, 02:14 PM
hmm... Didn't know all that.

But then what's the difference between the lifestyle and the religion?

If this can't be explained quickly i'll make another thread about it.

Lyrnx
07-11-2004, 02:21 PM
But then what's the difference between the lifestyle and the religion

Example of a religion: Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...

Example of a lifestyle: Your daily life! For Christians it would be Christianity...


Lyrnx

yaebginn
07-11-2004, 02:23 PM
a lifestyle is the way you live your life, a religion is your beliefs on a higher power or whatever. Like, vegetarianism is a lifestyle. Lyrnx, whats your aim name or email.

Doomie
07-11-2004, 02:44 PM
So if i believe in the christian god, i follow the christian religion and if i go to church on sunday i follow christian lifestyle?

Guess i'm not so atheist as i first thought. Afterall, there's gotta be something that created stuff right?

ET Warrior
07-11-2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
Example of a religion: Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...

Example of a lifestyle: Your daily life! For Christians it would be Christianity...

:eyeraise: That is the most non-sensical thing I've ever heard. Buddhism is more of a lifestyle than Christianity.

Buddhists live their lives as buddhists, hindus live their lives as hindus, so according to your logic, there is no such thing as religion. :dozey:

ET Warrior
07-11-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
that said nothing to prove lyrnx wrong. It said something about the christian religion. But not christianity.

The state or fact of being a Christian.

So, being a christian has nothign to do with being a religion? You people confuse me.

yaebginn
07-11-2004, 07:47 PM
not nothing to do with, just isnt the same as. Christianity is a lifestyle, because it follows you through your daily life. Everything I do is backed up by my experince in living as a christian. If someone got me mad, I wouldnt swear, because I was raised as a christian and while some christians will slip up every now and again, most that I know dont.

ET Warrior
07-11-2004, 09:44 PM
Christians aren't supposed to curse? Where does it say in the bible that you can't say damn or ass? I'm pretty sure those words were USED in the bible....

And your desciption means that Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, and the like are all lifestyles too. So in that case there's no such thing as religion, just lifestyles :rolleyes:

(though atheism really is a lifestyle, and not a religion....)

Lyrnx
07-11-2004, 09:48 PM
So if i believe in the christian god, i follow the christian religion and if i go to church on sunday i follow christian lifestyle?


Uh no... First you gotta accept that you are a sinner, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again on the third day and trust Him as your Lord and Saviour.

Good works don't get a man(or woman...) saved from Hell... Only Jesus' bloodshed will...


there's gotta be something that created stuff right?
Wasn't no "Big Boom", giant gas cloud, etc...


if there was a god, he probably didn't create the USA, and if so, made a mistake doing so.

America was founded FOR GOD and BY GOD. It was us americans and our sinful nature that made it how it is today.


That is the most non-sensical thing I've ever heard.

Ya i kinda screwed up a bit in that post...

[QUOTE]Christians aren't supposed to curse? Where does it say in the bible that you can't say damn or ass? I'm pretty sure those words were USED in the bible....[QUOTE]

Here's the thing. in the Bible and Ass was refering to a donkey. not someone's butt. The Damned are those souls who refused Christ and went to Hell.

Nowadays *pardon* damn is a curse word and not used as much as refering to those who go to Hell. Plus the Bible says to stay away from any foul language. There is no excuse for cursing.
"But i.." Nope. No true excuse...


PM me to know more... Can't fit it all in a post :P


Lyrnx

Darth333
07-11-2004, 10:48 PM
yeabginn, lyrnx: travel around the world a little please (not only for vacations at the beach).

You'll soon learn that there are many ways of living and thinking (and that the US is not the center of the universe). None of those ways of living is completely right or bad: there are good things and bad things everywhere you go. Ways of life also tend to change with time: it's called evolution. So who's the best? That also tends to change according to geography, timeline, sex, age, income, religion, etc...Truth is not as simple as you think.

I've travelled a lot and I've seen atrocites, painful as well as beautiful things. Sometimes one beside each other, at the same place at the same time...

My opinion about religion and life: the important thing is, no matter what you are and what you believe (or don't believe) in, the essential is to try to make life better, not only yours but that of everyone around you (sometimes it takes so little). Don't render other people's life miserable.

Erm...how did I ended up here? :eyeraise:

yaebginn
07-11-2004, 11:24 PM
ET, the Bible says 'Do not let anything unwholesome come out of your mouth' that means swearing. And America isnt the center of the universe. Alot of countries are good to, but statistically, America is the most powerful and richest, which basically makes it the best. Oh, it also is all about freedom, which contributes greatly to its greatness and it is one of the yungest coutnries, yet grew really fast to be awesome. What is the best country to you and why? Oh, and Mort-hog, it does matter what country you're from because in a debate, our ground should be fairly equal. I am from America, now to balance things out, you SHOULD tell me yours. You wont, which I think is cowardice, but thats your deal.

Darth333
07-11-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
America is the most powerful and richest, which basically makes it the best.
If this is your criteria (military and economical power) I won't argue with you...I think it is self explanatory...and sad... :rolleyes:
Truly, you should do some serious reading about history and some travelling as well.

ET Warrior
07-12-2004, 02:34 AM
ET, the Bible says 'Do not let anything unwholesome come out of your mouth' that means swearing.
The bible also says it's okay to stone your wife to death if she cheats on you. Do you follow that part of the bible? Just curious.

How is swearing unwholesome? And how is swearing defined? Where is the line crossed? Some people say that damn is okay, some say it's not. Some people don't like the word crap. Does it line it out in the bible? I'd like to know which words are earning me a place in Hell.

Doomie
07-12-2004, 06:15 AM
WEll... can't say this thread got boring since ET got here...

Just for the Record: I'm from holland. Wich is a lot like America. Only we allow gay marriage, possession of soft-drugs, and are a lot more tolerant about a lot of things. Here, the 'state' IS seperated from the church, and by the looks of it, that's saing us a lot of trouble.

We also have a Queen, but that's another story.

yaebginn
07-12-2004, 08:56 AM
and cursing doesnt make you go to hell. Living does. You have to accept God and then you're saved, it doenst matter if you never cuss. And since Jesus died for us, alot of things in the Old testament dont apply. Because of him dying, we dont have to give sacrifices, kill our wives, and the like. I'm about to go t church, but when I get back, I have a whole list of verses against curses and other various words. Your country is fine, but its no America. I mean, we were built on the Church, we should honor it. It's also way smaller, we have a ton of people and it'd really screw the country up if the dam broke and drugs were legal, gays could marry and such.

Lyrnx
07-12-2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
and cursing doesnt make you go to hell. Living does. You have to accept God and then you're saved, it doenst matter if you never cuss. And since Jesus died for us, alot of things in the Old testament dont apply. Because of him dying, we dont have to give sacrifices, kill our wives, and the like. I'm about to go t church, but when I get back, I have a whole list of verses against curses and other various words. Your country is fine, but its no America. I mean, we were built on the Church, we should honor it. It's also way smaller, we have a ton of people and it'd really screw the country up if the dam broke and drugs were legal, gays could marry and such.

Amen Brotha!
Naturally we go to Hell. But then Christ died out of love for us and rose 3 days later we can be saved from hell...
However some people decline God's love.. Mostly cuz they don't wanna give up their sinful nature. They just wanna keep on sinning. But their stubbornness is what get them to hell.
Well, g2g to church. Cya...





WEll... can't say this thread got boring since ET got here...

Have to agree with ya there :P


Lyrnx

Doomie
07-12-2004, 09:57 AM
and it'd really screw the country up if the dam broke and drugs were legal, gays could marry and such.

About legal drugs, i can understand that. I'm agains't that as well. But i don't see how gay marriage can add to chaos?

Lyrnx
07-12-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
But i don't see how gay marriage can add to chaos?

Well for one. It is immoral. Two. It is just plain on sick. Imagine if everyone in the world were gay. No more humans would be born, thus if it kept up all humanity would die out. Not just america.




Lyrnx

Doomie
07-12-2004, 12:52 PM
There you go again! Everybody says it's immoral and sick! it's not! They're just following their harts! and there will always be straight people, so ofcourse people will be born! But if there were lesser people on the world, that wouldn't be a problem either since the world is a bit overpopulated.

ET Warrior
07-12-2004, 01:30 PM
I really don't understand the logic of, "If gay marriage is legal, everyone in the world is going to be gay and we're doomed". Are YOU planning on jumping on the nearest guy to you once gay marriage is legal? Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone will do it. I'm 19 and it's legal for me to smoke cigarettes. Do I? Nope. Don't want to.



And now for something completely different.


So what you're saying is, befor Jesus died, EVERYONE went to hell. So there were no people going to heaven for the thousands of years before Jesus' birth? God must have been lonely.

and cursing doesnt make you go to hell. Living does
:eek: We're all screwed!!! We're all living!! We're going to hell!! AAAAYYEEEEEEEE

Doomie
07-12-2004, 01:33 PM
I hafta agree with ET that that sounds kinda lame. Then why is heaven there?

And another thing, who created heaven? was it God? Then why did he create Earth? Why was eating from that apple enough to send us there? What was so bad about it? Why were there already animals? They didn't do anything wrong. They should've stayed there.

Oh boy that was more off topic thhen i ever posted. But i'd like to know anyway.

Lyrnx
07-12-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
I hafta agree with ET that that sounds kinda lame. Then why is heaven there?

And another thing, who created heaven? was it God? Then why did he create Earth? Why was eating from that apple enough to send us there? What was so bad about it? Why were there already animals? They didn't do anything wrong. They should've stayed there.

Oh boy that was more off topic thhen i ever posted. But i'd like to know anyway.

God created heaven with Earth. Before Earth there was nothing. Except for God. He got kinda bored with it so he decided to make Heaven and Earth.

Here's how the earth was made:

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [1] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.


Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [2] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [3] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [4] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [6] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [7] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [8] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [9] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame

The Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [1] and hers;
he will crush [2] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [3] named his wife Eve, [4] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

That's the creation of the earth, the creation of man, and the fall of man in NIV.

So what you're saying is, befor Jesus died, EVERYONE went to hell. So there were no people going to heaven for the thousands of years before Jesus' birth? God must have been lonely.

Noooooo. The Jews had to earn their way to Heaven by sacrifices and such. But when Jesus came they didn't have to do that anymore. But the denied that Jesus is the Messiah so that's why they still do this stuff today. But if you do not accept that Christ died on the cross to pay your sindebt and rose on the thrid day then yes you are going to Hell. But if you do then your going to Heaven. I could sit here and type all about Heaven till this post is full and i still wouldn't scratch it.


They're just following their harts!

No they are following their lustful thoughts thinking that it is their heart. Their heart wouldn't want them to be gay.


"If gay marriage is legal, everyone in the world is going to be gay and we're doomed". Are YOU planning on jumping on the nearest guy to you once gay marriage is legal? Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone will do it.

But it would influence it.. and no. I have no plans on jumping on any man. (Unless i am falling and he happens to be in the way)


Lyrnx

Hiroki
07-12-2004, 02:52 PM
Close. Thread. Please. I do not want to see ANY of this crap in here. Must we have a religious debate in EVERY forum?!

Doomie
07-12-2004, 02:55 PM
:eek: That's got to be the friggin longest post i ever saw!

ET Warrior
07-13-2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
No they are following their lustful thoughts thinking that it is their heart. Their heart wouldn't want them to be gay.


But it would influence it.. and no. I have no plans on jumping on any man. (Unless i am falling and he happens to be in the way)

Firstly, you have NO idea what their hearts want. So you can NOT judge that atall.

Secondly, why would it influence it? It's not like it's ILLEGAL to be Gay right now, so what difference would it have? And if YOU don't plan on becoming gay once gay marriage is legal, why would OTHER people who aren't gay decide to change? It's not like we're planning on making straight marriage illegal. :rolleyes:

That's got to be the friggin longest post i ever saw!
That's because we got a big ol copy n paste of genesis of the Bible, which was a waste because nobody will read it.

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 03:27 AM
ah.. look .. a religious debate far from the senate.. :p

Originally posted by ET Warrior
That's because we got a big ol copy n paste of genesis of the Bible, which was a waste because nobody will read it.

..except for the first sentence.. (lol)

:xp:

Uh no... First you gotta accept that you are a sinner, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again on the third day and trust Him as your Lord and Saviour.

XD i find it funnier every time i hear it.

and everytime i realize that someone really believes this it makes me really, really sad.. :(

and errm.. i'm far from offending anyone.. but people like those, who really believe the stuff that was just posted will doom mankind one day. not gays.

see it's ok if you guys want to lead a "better life" and want to be helpful and whatnot.. but you do not need someone to tell you, you should do so or you go to hell if you dont. you can do it all "on your own". if you stop praising your lord half the day you could do much more better things than you can do now..

religion wastes your time.

i dont do things for "god". i do them for mankind.

..

as for the topic..

i think i have to agree with mort-hog here..

and after all.. all the countries are on one earth.. so does this really matter?

Doomie
07-13-2004, 06:20 AM
true words ray... true words. And yes, i think this thread was ready to go to the senate since the second post. WEll i'm no beleiver as well but to think it's sad, uhm alright... to say out loud that you think it's sad is a bit... you know. But i don't know the word for it.

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 07:04 AM
err.. i did not say it is sad, i said it makes me sad.

i never would say it is sad. but i rather would say it aloud than thinking it.

;)

Doomie
07-13-2004, 07:05 AM
ah ok. that's alright then.

Lyrnx
07-13-2004, 10:45 AM
So you're thinking God is funny? Ha ha ha ha ha.... *ahem* He does have a bit of humor in Him, but wait till Judgement Day comes... You'll be regreting every word you said about that.



Here's the entire answer that sums up Americas situation. Our forefathers would be ashamed that they even made this place away from Britain.

Anyone know of Soddom and Gommorrah? Well the story goes that Sodd and Gorr were so evil that God smote the two cities to ashes. The closer this world gets to being like those cities, the closer the Rapture is. And the Rapture I am greatly looking forward to.....



Lyrnx

Doomie
07-13-2004, 10:50 AM
So you're thinking God is funny? Ha ha ha ha ha.... *ahem* He does have a bit of humor in Him, but wait till Judgement Day comes... You'll be regreting every word you said about that.

What? What'd i do?

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 11:00 AM
Religion isnt a joke. I mean, God is an awesome person. He's loving, caring, nice and all. And he loves you, even if you hated him, he'd still love you, like a sheep gone astray to a shepherd. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God.

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
.. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God..

(we have now 2004/07/12 :dozey: )

i dont care going to hell because i am not afraid of it. bah. i fear other things than those where it's not even sure (for me) if they exist.
if your "god" has something to say then, please, he can "show up" and tell me his "divine" opinion, but he does not. period. (dont tell me "he" is everywhere, i know that stuff.)

i will not regret anything nor will i waste my time and power (and, of course, my money .. :dozey: ) for someone/thing "who" doesnt even tries to make this world a better place.
yes, i have love and much more to give, but not for a god. yes, i do care about other people and respect them, but why should i need a god (or church) to tell me i should? my mind is strong enough to lead me through life without that i start whining everytime something is harder than expected.
i can live a good and creative life without worshipping anything. i can think for my own. i dont need a religious brainwash.

and this is what makes me sad. why doesnt mankind get that a peaceful together, taking care of each other and living a "good" life has nothing to do with a god or religion?? pah.

without religion mankind could be 500 years ahead of where it's now.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 11:49 AM
and thats what makes me sad. Knowin that when you die, unless you turn around, you're going to hell. That makes me sad. You dont grasp what Hell is. We tell people to go there in our daily life, but if we grasped what it was, we'd cringe everytime we heard the name. I dont even want Sadam Hussein to go there, its so horrible.

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 11:55 AM
Oh wow, time to set things straight.

"Lifestyle" and "religion" are not mutually exclusive.

'Religion' dictates how you live your life, not just what you believe. Semantically, a 'religion' is the organised worship of one or more gods. Buddhism is not a religion.
You are not a Christian if you just claim to be one, you are a Christian if you live your life to Christian standards.
Lots of people claim to be 'moderate' Christians and believe 'parts' of the Bible and not others. No, Christianity is one package, you either accept all of it or none of it.

I do like to add this whenever Christianity comes up... Why are you a Christian?
God came to the prophet Abraham, who started the Jewish following. After 2000 years, they meandered away from God and He sent the prophet Jesus Christ, who, after his death, started the Christian following. After just 700 years, God came to the prophet Muhammed (saws). As it took only 700 years, it makes me think that the Christians got something very wrong very quickly. And as God has not come to any other prophet since then, it makes perfect sense to assume that Islam is the word of God.
Islam overrides Christianity, Islam is the new and updated word of God. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

If you are to believe in God, you should be a muslim. To be a Jew or a Christian is to deny God Himself.

Of course, that is a pretty big "if".


Modern society does not need Christianity. Individuals cater for their individual beliefs. Christianity does not make people happy. The wholly illogical argument against homosexuality is one example of this. People are increasingly questioning everything around them, and are not happy with believing something just because it says in an old mistranslated book. Why is homosexuality wrong?
Because the Bible says so.
That is not a logical or sensible answer.
People are questioning Christianity, some turn away and others stick to it.

Americans tend to the latter. Christian fundementalism is stronger in southern America than anywhere else in the world.
This thread itself is an example of how Americans refuse to question themselves, when the rest of the world do so daily.
Religion and the state should always be completely separate. Even the founding fathers of America knew that. If the two are linked, then you are left with a feudal state of a religious dictatorship, with the Government said to be divinely inspired. Dubya doesn't need majority vote, he is placed there by God! And as Christians refuse to question Christianity, they too will refuse to question their government.
Yes, the conservative American media love to paint itself as the example of freedom for the world over, and Americans love to lap up that lie. The world hates America, and the world is laughing at America.

Europe has for many centuries had atheist governments and has developed society in the interests of the happiness of their people, with change and development being the key. America has stuck to the same 'traditional values' for centuries and refused change. It is this that has left America 11 trillion dollars in debt. 11 trillion dollars.


Oh, and I already told you, I am from Bulgaria. I don't see how this assumption makes any difference whatsoever. I am not comparing country X with America, I am comparing the world with America.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 12:05 PM
America was built on Christian beliefs and still follows them and is one of the youngest countries. But its the most powerful, the richest, has the strongest military. It's also free and we talk normal. I dont know all about the muslim religion, so I wont debate with you on why its wrong. I know and believe that God is real, for the wonderful things he's done in my life. and yours, but you wont allow yourself to see it. You'll just say, 'Ooh, got lucky there'

Doomie
07-13-2004, 12:39 PM
And he loves you, even if you hated him, he'd still love you, like a sheep gone astray to a shepherd. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God.

That sounds really loving... :dozey:

But alright, i see the thread has shifted back to America a bit. Again. Mort-hog is making some pretty good points, but so is Yaeb. There are a lot of stories about miraculous cures by the hand of God, and even if it wasn't God, but merely the believing (subconscious and thoughts and stuff can do more than you might think) it's a good example of religions being good for something. About America... that's a bad example.

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 12:40 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, cuz that would take a lot of time, but I love dem "saying how bad america is" threads, especially when there are americans in them :D

ET Warrior
07-13-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
And he loves you, even if you hated him, he'd still love you, like a sheep gone astray to a shepherd. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God.

THIS is the part that really gets me going. I mean honestly, how can you believe that a deity who LOVES you would damn you to an eternity of suffering just because you chose to spend your time HELPING the other people he loves, as opposed to worshipping him? I know what love is, sir. And that is NOT love. I love my family, I love my friends, and I love my girlfriend. I would NEVER, EVER do anything that would cause pain or suffering to any one of those people, even for a few minutes, let alone all of eternity.


I also am impressed at the way that everything good that happens in your lives is the result of God's intervention, but the bad things are just random crap that happened, God had nothing to do with it.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 12:55 PM
Hey, you nkow Islam was founded by some guy that learned about Judaism and Christianity, but thought how they could be improved and started his own religion? Islam means: 'surrendering to God' or something like that. Now if your God really cared about that sort of thing, wouldn't all islamitic countries be destroyed like those two cities? Furthermore, it proves that Jezus could've very well been an ordinary guy that just wanted some attention, or better yet, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and people started worshipping him. (Go watch life of brian to give you a general idea). Then people could've made up the rest, like ghost stories.

Let's start a new religion! Worship the lord GL! Starwars is our holy 'book'!

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
Hey, you nkow Islam was founded by some guy that learned about Judaism and Christianity, but thought how they could be improved and started his own religion? Islam means: 'surrendering to God' or something like that. Now if your God really cared about that sort of thing, wouldn't all islamitic countries be destroyed like those two cities? Furthermore, it proves that Jezus could've very well been an ordinary guy that just wanted some attention, or better yet, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and people started worshipping him. (Go watch life of brian to give you a general idea). Then people could've made up the rest, like ghost stories.

Let's start a new religion! Worship the lord GL! Starwars is our holy 'book'! Jesus was born jewish, and died jewish, christianity can't be blamed on him. He only wanted to change judaism.

B1GC
07-13-2004, 01:22 PM
Darth, you hit the nail on the head. Everyone's goal in life should be to better themselves and their Community. I do live in America and yes I geuss I am somewhat bias in my opinion of the US, but in thinking about that everyone else has the same right in whatever country they come from.

I am not here to say America is the best or anything like that, but I think I am correct in saying that almost everyone in the world knows who our President is..No? That must mean something. So many people not only in this thread, but in forums and newspapers and magazines all over the world criticize how we run things and how our system works. We always get blamed for everything and we never do anything right.

So many people from all around the world have opinions about the US in one way or another, but to be truthful how many other countries around the world get that same attention? China...maybe? Iraq...maybe? Europe...maybe? but not to the same degree that we get criticized. I know that we do some stupid stuff and we can not appease everyone all the time...we try, but to no avail.

While the world continues to spin I say we try to focus on things we have influence on, and try to live in that little piece of world that you do.

Tomorrow the world will still be here...I hope.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 01:24 PM
but I think I am correct in saying that almost everyone in the world knows who our President is..No?

Can say the same about Jack the Ripper...

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 01:33 PM
Actaully, he doesnt really send us there. We choose to go there. if I said he sends us there b4, I was mistaken. If we dont accpet him and join him, then we go to Hell because we just didnt go to heaven. Its our choice. wrong. bad things to us arent just crappy luck. God could be punishing us for doing something, as a father punsihes his son, Satan could be tempting us, trying to become discouraged, or It could just be that it happened because we were disobedient and if we followe God's way, we wouldnt be in the trouble, or it could be that we were obedient and we are being persecuted for loving Christ. All of those has happened to me before. and Christianity is Jesuss 'fault' He created it by living. Before Judeism(sp?) was the right way to go, but then he came and Judeism 'evolved' into Christianity. It's like a tv show. Friends for example. it was going great. Getting good ratings, being a good show. Then it ended and evolved to focus on one character, making the show Joey, premering this Fall. There is nothing wrong with Friends, it just changed to make something better. It's debatable on whether Joey will be better than Friends, but you get my point.

B1GC
07-13-2004, 01:41 PM
Mort,
you say "the conservative American media" and I am here to say that there is absolutly nothing conservative about our media...its extremly liberal my friend and a reader can only beleive about half of everything that is said.

o and 1 other thing for you Mort,
By you saying that Islam is the true faith above and beyond Christianity and Judiasm is a waht every faith believes. Every religon beleives it is the correct religon, if it didn't it would not exist.

But one thing I have noticed...every forum that I have entered where there is an Islamic person, he/she always finds a way to say exactly what you just said. why do Islamic people always try to paint a bias picture in everyones head? Is it because it is one of the goals of your religon, just like communism...to spread?


My opinion is that Muslims just need to relax and stopped feeling so threatened all the time.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 01:43 PM
My 'bad luck' exists out of big *******s making fun of me and pushing em around because they're stupid and big and i'm smart and rather small. I don't suppose the Lord would change their entire beings if i started believing in them?

EDIT: Damn, you beat me to it! But seriously, he's pretty much right. First, there was judaism. it evolved into Christianity. So then that was the right thing to belive in. Then it evolved further into Islam.

ET Warrior
07-13-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by B1GC
you say "the conservative American media" and I am here to say that there is absolutly nothing conservative about our media...its extremly liberal my friend and a reader can only beleive about half of everything that is said.

...say what? Our media is LIBERAL? Are you kidding me? There is nothing liberal about our media these days my friend.



@yaebginn - Well if I get to CHOOSE if I'm going to heaven or hell, I choose heaven. I just don't understand why anyone would choose hell over heaven, they must be stupid.

And I guess you're saying that God caused 9/11 to happen, so why are we going after the terrorists? I mean, they were just acting out God's will weren't they? We needed to be punished for our sinful behaviors.

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 02:02 PM
Yaeb, you say that America is so strong for the time it exists, but Israel, the day it was declered, was attacked by all arab countries around, and we won. So Israel > America x99999999

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 02:03 PM
No, I believe Sept 11 was Satan working through the terrorists who believe a false religion. and you say 'oh, its stupid to choose hell over heaven' but thats what you're doing. by not accpeting God as your heavenly father and savior, thats what you are doing, choosing hell.

B1GC
07-13-2004, 02:04 PM
The media is so liberal you can't even tell. When was the last thing that you heard good from the war in Iraq. The media tries so hard to not put good things about the war in the news becasue it makes Bush look good and that is the last thing the media wants. You never hear about Bush doing anything good...but have you notcied gas prices going down? ive see a 50 cent per gallon decrease. The economy is doing well and unemployment is down. No I am not a Bush fan or a Kerry fan they are both idiots. I am a McCain fan.

Besides all that lets think abou thow you get into the media. Most Newspaper, tv, and magazine writers are what? journalists. And where do you get a degree in journalism? A liberal arts school. and just like the name says...LIBERAL. The only conservative News station is FOX news. ABC, CNN, CBS, MSNBC....all liberal.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 02:08 PM
Yaebginn, you're saying that if i say 'God created everything', wich i do, since i'm only for 95% Atheist, I'm going to heaven? Sweet!:)

Lyrnx
07-13-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
And I guess you're saying that God caused 9/11 to happen, so why are we going after the terrorists? I mean, they were just acting out God's will weren't they? We needed to be punished for our sinful behaviors.

Wrong. Islam is NOT and I repeat NOT involved with anything with God. God let's things happen. Sometimes He says Yes to some things and sometimes He says No, whichever is better for the cause.

Or

Satan was most likely the guilty culprit for 9/11. Tempting Bin-Laden to do it. Satan has many powers on this rock. Satan started "The Mother Church". Twisting Christianity into Cathlocism.(sp?) God has nothing to do with Muhammed or Allah. The Korran is a phony book of lies made by the Devil himself. Only the Bible is the true Holy Book. Even now, Satan is here making you think that Allah and God are one. He is wily and will not stop until you decline Almighty God. But noooo, he won't stop there. Here's his plans for the future:

When millions of people dissappear out of nowhere the event known as the Rapture has occured. And the beginning of the Seven Year Tribulation...
During the Tribulation Satan will get a person, born from Romania, to claim that he is the Christ. Everyone, even Israel, will like him. the Anti-Christ (or the Beast in Revalations) will sign a treaty with Israel to have protection from the plans ahead. The Beast will make a sign (666) and whoever doesn't have it on their foreheads will be unable to buy or sell items. From Heaven God will unleash his wrath by seven seals.

Revelation 6:
"The Seals

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[1] of wheat for a day's wages,[2] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[3] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

After that The Beast will get all nations to come together at Megiddo (Hebrew for Armegeddon) and that is when the Lord God will come out of heaven and kill everyone who has the Beast's mark. The few amount of Christians that beleive in God and survived the Seven Year Tribulation will go to the Lord's Millenia reign on earth. after that God will make a new heaven and a new earth. One that will not end.


Yaebginn, you're saying that if i say 'God created everything', wich i do, since i'm only for 95% Atheist, I'm going to heaven? Sweet!

Nope. You gotta trust in God as your Lord and Saviour to get to Heaven...


Lyrnx

Doomie
07-13-2004, 02:24 PM
Alright fine. I do that too! When i'm in serious trouble, i pray to Him! So i'm gonna go to heaven...

About that sign on the forehead stuff: won't the christians help eachother? There are so many of them. What kinda trial is that?

ET Warrior
07-13-2004, 02:26 PM
Stop posting verses from the bible, if you want us to read it, post a link to wherever your copy and pasting from, because it takes up space, and we don't want to read it, because there is NO proof that your book is ANY more right than the Koran, or the Lord of the Rings.


I dont like the way you Christians get to change the rules to exclude people. First it was that God sends us to hell, but then I pointed out the fallacy of that and suddenly I choose to go to hell, but I don't want to choose Hell, that's just dumb. But then I don't get to choose where I'm going.....

Sometimes He says Yes to some things and sometimes He says No, whichever is better for the cause.
But I thought God already had the master plan that nobody can change...so why would he need to say yes or no? He'll just let things happen exactly as they're supposed to.

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 02:29 PM
My GOD christians are more stupid than I thought. The whole believing in god because if you don't god will send you to hell is ****ing dumb. It's not a reason.

B1GC
07-13-2004, 03:00 PM
Christians belief that everyone is placed on earth as a test...yes life is a test, it obvios where you go if you pass or fail. It is a simple test though...if you truly love God and ask for forgiveness of your sins and you truly mean it then you will go to heaved...if not hell.

When the rapture comes all the true christians will disappear all at once (this includes children and mentally handicaped). Basically this is all the good on the earth and all at once things go into chaos becasue all the nonbelievers will be left. At this point all those left have seven years to correct thier lives and live for Jesus and love God. during this time the world will become one ruled by the devil himself. After the seven years the Lord and his angels will meet the devil and his angels on one battlefield and destroy him.

Many of these things are already happening. Europe is already forming into one nation with the Euro doller. Talks are already commencing of rebuilding the temple of Soloman, which happens to be the samn location of the Dome of the Rock. The Book of Revaltions speaks of many things that are already happening today. Funny how it was written thousands of years ago. The Bible is being proven to be true every day.

Doesnt say much for the Quran does it. Many say it is the book of the devil himself, to confuse the truth with his ways....do i beilief it? I just dont know, what about you?

Doomie
07-13-2004, 03:23 PM
Things like that scare me...

So, if i want to go to heaven, and say, that rapture is tomorrow, what should i do?

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 03:34 PM
someone really lies. honestly. :rolleyes:

it really exceeds my understanding how some of you people can sit in front of a computer and post this stuff in an internet forum. how can you use and rely to the inventions and advantages of science if you completely deny it's results in such a wide spectrum?

and if i die, i die. my body dies and rottens away. even if there is a soul that goes whereever, there cannot be any pain, because pain is some information "produced" by my long rotten body, which isnt connected to my soul anymore in any way. pain is there to protect me from hurting myself (my body). it's simple: no body, no pain.

if i ever will go to "hell", there may be everything included naked girls dancing. but not pain.

so you may be scared by hell, but hey.. accept, respect and tolerate that i am not. open your eyes. there is enough to be afraid of. while you have a body.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 03:56 PM
I wish you guys did Philosophy of Religion like I do. Here are a few thoughts to make an theist’s head spin:

The Judeo-Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving. BUT:

If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.
Furthermore, God would surely want us to worship him out of our own free will (for it to be meaningful), but by having the concept of Heaven and Hell as understood by many posters in this thread, this is an unfair influrence on the way people think. Too many would be worhsiping God out of fear from going to Hell, as they have done in the past, which, you must agree, is the wrong reason to worship God. Therefore hell is a concept that is unrealistic to the nature and purpose of God.

Another point - it's all a load of bollocks. Creationist science is improvable, and other sciences are more realistic. Relgious language such as "God is good" is meaningless, so don't try and respond with that. Take the anaology of the garden in a jungle: two men come across it, one goes "there must be a gardener". The other goes "No, it's a coincidence. There can't possibly be a gardener in the jungle." So they decide to wait a day to see if a gardener comes. No-one arrives. "Ah", says the man "but the gardener obviously comes once a week" - so they wait a week. Still no gardner "Well he obviously is invisible" - so they set up nets - "well he;s obviously small enough to fit through the nets" ad infitium. The point is, whatever you say to a Christian fundemenalist such as the ones on this thread, they will still keep on going on with the same point, whilst refusing to take into consideration evidence of any kind. Therefore what they say is meaningless.

Also, on the subject of hell: most of you seem to have got your definition out of a Medieval book of theology. The modern Christian interpretation of Hell is being without God (whatever that means) and heaven is being with God (whatever that means). It makes no logical sense to say that God loves everyone and forgives everyone if you can suffer for eternity for a mere mistake.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 04:00 PM
Yeah those are good calls. Sure, there's a ****load of crap in the holy books but there are also a lot of facts. and commandments. Maybe it's from a guy that was always beaten and stuff, and said: 'thy shall not kill!' Then his friends always went to the hookers and he had no money for it, and he was jealous, so he said: 'Thy shall not have sex outside of marriage' annd on and on... that could also be it. I mean, it's so long ago, how are we going to check?

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Gabez
I wish you guys did Philosophy of Religion like I do. Here are a few thoughts to make an theist’s head spin:

The Judeo-Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving. BUT:

If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.

Also, on the subject of hell: most of you seem to have got your definition out of a Medieval book of theology. The modern Christian interpretation of Hell is being without God (whatever that means) and heaven is being with God (whatever that means). It makes no logical sense to say that God loves everyone and forgives everyone if you can suffer for eternity for a mere mistake. Religious people have an answer to everything. For example, evil is because of the devil, and the holocaust was because the jews in europe sinned, and god was punishing them :rolleyes:

Gabez
07-13-2004, 04:11 PM
Okay, I updated my post with more stuff in the time it took you to reply. Go read it again.

The devil is a poor reason for evil. If you must know, then the only philisophically satisfying answer that I know of to the problem of evil is that God wants us to be perfect, and we can only become perfect through free will, therefore God can't intervene with our affairs, therefore evil is allowed, but eventaully everyone will be made perfect and the end will justify the means.

Problems with this: even if we're all perfect in the end, it still doesn't justufy a naked boy of six being ripped apart by hounds whilst his mother watches. There's no reason for that. Problem #2 is that if God is all powerful, surely He can intervine without ruining our free will (debatable, but I won't go into that). Ditto for the Holocaust - that does not sound like the act of an all-loving God, and seriously contradicts itself.

Doomgiver: I see the Bible as a description of ethics rather than an explanation to life the universe and everything (to nick a book title).

Doomie
07-13-2004, 04:12 PM
Then how come the Almighty One can't make something too heavy for him to lift? Answer: It's impossible. But he's all powerful, so he can do everything, even that, but also he can't... it's driving me nuts when i start to think about it.

I also had my questions about he all loving part. I say my religion is the best - starwars! It's easy:

1: You shall not turn to the dark side.
2: You shall learn the code of the sith.
3: You will make offers to GL in the form of money for starwars episode three.
4: Otherwise you will go to trekkieland!
5: You shall always try to turn the nonbelievers.
6: There can be only two. No that's a silly rule. Well, then i'm done! And christians need an entire bible for that. I need three movies and five sentences.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 04:19 PM
Heh, yeah Star Wars is great.

To get back on topic: Either China or Europe. Or both.

Edit: Russia's another possibility for the next 100 years.

Just noticed this: "The Bible is being proven to be true every day." - er, no. Bible prophecies are hardly an exact science. And it's called the Euro, not the "Europe Dollar". The Euro. EURO.

Also I just thought of a problem with the concept of heaven. If everyone there is good, and there's no evil, then there's no distinction between the two, and thus there's no free will. If I throw someone out of the window in Heaven it won't hurt them - if I make them a cup of tea it will have the same effect. Therefore everything becomes meaningless, and thus our choices become meaningless, so there is in effect no free will, because our choices won't mean anything. It's like a man who decides not to go out of a room, not knowing that the door is locked. He has made the choice, but it is an illusion - as a matter of fact he has no free will.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 04:22 PM
Howzabout the EU?

EDIT: That topic dissapeared since, what, the second post?

Gabez
07-13-2004, 04:26 PM
Hee, yeah, but I thought it was an interesting topic, so I wanted to bring it back. And when I said "Europe" I meant the EU.

Doomie
07-13-2004, 04:34 PM
Oh. I missed that part.

About the heaven: You're friggin right! Mayeb it's about the philosify (I know that's spelled wrong) of 'good guys stay good guys' but it must be very boring there and it's only a matter of time before evryone there goes postal and gets banned to hell, wich is a bit sucky, since that could've also happened without years of boredom. Heck i can't even stand one day of boredom! And the onlyother option is mind control, wich is also kinda sucky.

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 04:35 PM
i wouldnt mind if they called it euro dollar. i mean they also call it euro cents..

but thats just a name anyways..


and i think the reason why the eu was formed is mainly economic. to say it is a sign of the evil is plain .. err.. sad, y'know?

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 04:45 PM
wow, I'm gone for a few hours and look how much has been posted since. whew. ok. doomgiver, in order to get to heaven, you must admit that you are a sinner, believe that jesus is God's sona nd died on the cross so that you can go to heaven, and confess your faith. that means tell someone that you are a christian. ok, Hell is eternal seperation from God, buts thats only part of it. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Great Pain. and pain is also phycological, is a girlfriend dumps you atfer a year, you feel pain, but I have no idea, nor do I want to know, the kind of pain there will be in hell. and no, heaven isnt going to be boring, because there is free will, there is just no sin. you cant do anything wrong nor have any desire to. I cant even imagine it, its beyond my capabilities. And heaven is immense, it goes on forever, not just time-wise, but it just is so BIG. I mean, it fits every believer from all eternity in there. It's gonna be huge. And a few have tried to make a star wars religion, but it cant be, because its not true. George is the creator of it and he himself has said its not real and he doesnt like it when the people try to make on because its just a movie (and books and such) And there's too much to go back and read right now, but re-post your questions in shorter posts, and I'll try to answerr them.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 04:59 PM
You obviously didn't read anything I posted, yaebginn, and I'm certainly not going to "re-post my questions in shorter posts" for your convinience.

What you are saying is philisophically meanignless (see the anology of the garden in the jungle I used). People make logical points and you just go "Ah, but God is good" and stuff like that. You can't make that move. If you respond with a statement you picked up from the Bible, then it is meaningless, because you have no expereience of what it actually means. You've just remembered it from Sunday School. Furthermore, you say WHAT the God of classical theism is like, but you don't say WHY or HOW. THerefore your post is meaningless - I might as well just say "Bob is good". It doesn't mean anything. You may think it does, but it doesn't.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 05:01 PM
I never said 'God is good' in this post. He is, but that doesnt have anything to do with what I'm saying. and if you dont restate them in shorter sentences, I wont respond, your choice. I dont honestly care either way.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 05:04 PM
You're obviously thicker than I thought. >:

I know you never said "God is good", but if you read my post, then you'll have realised I was using that as an example of what Christians can say. And no, I will NOT repost in "shorter sentences" so your tiny brain can comprehend what I'm saying. It's not my fault you're stupid. >:

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 05:13 PM
Not stupid, just value conveinience. You posted those things most likely so I will answer them, I will not answer them or even read them, if they are all jumbled up.

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 05:18 PM
holla. i would call that ignorant. ;p

also "psycological pain" is not pain. it is more a mental thing, made up by our brains (-> part of our rotten body??). there are ways to get over that..

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 05:35 PM
its still pain, just not physical. and if you dojnt turn from your ways, you can see what kind of pain is in hell. its up to you.

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 05:37 PM
Good thing I believe in reincarnation :D

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 05:46 PM
see.. emotional pain "exists" in or mind which is "in" our brain which again is "controlled" through chemical and physical processes. if there is such thing like hell i will be there without my body, without my brain, without those chemical and physical processes. there cannot be such thing as pain as we know it. so stop talking as if you know what will be. none of us two knows what is really will go on. and noone of us can prove their "theories".

and again, i dont believe in your hell. if you think i will go there it will change nothing for me. and i am a much better than many chistians or mulims or whatever are. so it is totally irrelevant for me if someone thinks i will go to hell (whatever that means). also "believing" would not change my life in any way because i dont have to be sorry for anything i did in my life. maybe because i tend to think before i do things.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 05:47 PM
You anger me NO END, yaebginn. I wasn't calling your views stupid, I was commenting on the fact that you can't read "long sentences". My points are NOT jumbled up. If you look at them then they are in bullet-point format (I didn't actually do a bullet point but I will now to please your limited mental capacity). >:

If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.

For more, see my previous posts. >:


Also, Rayjones... great point, but there is a scientific theory that suggests that conciousness may "leak out" after you die and be held together at the meta-physical level. I don't full understand it, and it's at very early stages of research, but it's worth keeping your ear to the ground for, and more importantly gives a viable alterntaive from which to argue from.

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 05:51 PM
As a Christian, you accept that God came to Abraham, and you accept as God came to Jesus Christ (in some way or rather), but why do you refuse Muhammed?
It doesn't make any sense. The arguments you use against Muhammed (oh he made it all up) can be used just as well against Jesus Christ and/or Abraham.

The main argument here is over the divinity of Christ. Islam states that Jesus Christ is the prophet of God, and that Christians turned away from God because they worshipped Jesus Christ as a false idol.
Judging by what a lot of you here have said, that criticism seems fair. You are all ignoring God, because you worship Jesus Christ.
God was not pleased with this and so he came to Muhammed to set things straight.

Now if Jesus Christ was the son of God, you'd think he'd know about it from birth. And so you'd think he'd start helping people from the start.
No, the guy did bugger all for 30 years. All his miracle-doing happened when he was middle aged, and lasted about two years or so.
Makes a lot more sense to think that God came to Jesus and told him to do stuff.



If you are to believe in God there is no reason in the world why you should be a Christian. You should be a Muslim.

I am not a Muslim because I do not believe in God.

I think Gabez is taking the God lesson, that's a totally different debate, and one that is much harder, but if you do believe in God, you should be a Muslim. That debate is much easier.


Hahaha "American media is liberal"..

The reason that the media doesn't post anything good about the Iraq invasion... is because there isn't anything good about it. Even your conservative media can't downright lie. Not blatantly, anyway.
American media is conservative or slightly less conservative. Fox News is a joke. We got it after the WTC attacks and it made the event quite amusing.
The reason that American media is conservative is because Americans are conservative and will only buy conservative newspapers or tune in to conservative newstations, and so the media is trying to 'sell the product' so to speak. This in turn makes the Americans even more conservative. It's a viscous circle and it is inevitable with privatised news stations. Only an organisation that has no intention of making a profit will be anything remotely close to objective. And this is why government-funded newspapers are potentially the best way to go.

If you ever watch the BBC or European media, you'd see how conservative your media is.

As for 'everyone knows our president'.

Firstly, no they don't. Yes, Europeans and those in the Middle-East probably do, but there are plenty of people who have no reason to know who he is.

Secondly, they know who he is because they hate him. "Everyone" knows who Hitler is. That doesn't make it a 'good' thing.


As for "America is the youngest country in the world"... uh... what are you talking about.

East Timor is the youngest country in the world. It was founded in 2002.

Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Israel, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania.... all of these countries, and many more, have been founded long after America. They are all 'younger'.


North Korea has the largest military in the world, not America.

America probably has the most nuclear weapons, and chemical and biological weapons. Say, who exactly are we to fear for having weapons of mass destruction?
But as the World Trade Centre attacks showed, all of that is meaningless. America is totally powerless in the "war on terror" and America is doomed to fail, mostly because of people like you. The whole operation cost around $2000, most of which was in renting appartments and vehicles.

All it took was a dozen soldiers willing to give their lives and they took down the American symbol of capitalism. As those towers fell, they changed the world.

And you're kidding yourself if you think it's not going to happen again. Until America drastically changes its foreign policy, it is a sitting duck for attacks. There will be suicide bombings on the streets of Washington before long.

Americans are being slaughtered every day by these same suicide soldiers. All those nukes aren't helping now.

That network of individuals, giving their lives to attack their oppressors, it is they who have the power. For every soldier the Americans kill a dozen more rise up. The struggle will only build up as this generation is raised in hatred; the soldiers fighting now are Cold War veterans, but the soldiers of the future will be a new generation of martyrs. They will be even more deadly as their cause is directed squarely at America, and their tactics are radically different to the outdated warfare of Americans.

Terrorism? It hasn't even started yet.

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Gabez
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?

oh, what a neat question. i would say god cant, but multidimensional chaos maths can.. :D

.. there is a scientific theory that suggests that conciousness may "leak out" after you die and be held together at the meta-physical level.

interesting, indeed. i've heard about that too. maybe it could kinda end up in some kind of "reincarnation" theory. ;)

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 06:07 PM
There was some American scientist in the 20th century that weighed people before and after they died and calculated the weight of the soul.
He concluded that it weights 21 grams.

(It is interesting, but he uses very dubious methods and his findings really have no scientific value)

Ray Jones
07-13-2004, 06:13 PM
yes, i'm not even sure if it would have a mass. as a form of energy it mustn't necessarily have one..

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 06:30 PM
I said one of the youngest, which it is. Only a bit over 200 years old. Thats young. The media is very liberal. If you say it's not, you are either ignorant or stupid. A bunch of gays were holding a rally and banging on people's cars and stuff, where was it no the news? Nowhere, because they want you to support gays. If hetro did that, it'd be all over the news. God and Jesus are one in three. They are united into one. Jesus is God on earth, God is God in heaven, and Holy Spirit is God in us. Australia knows our president. Most countries with a source to the outside world has knowledge of our president.

1. I dont know
2. Time is not necessary for thought and act. And he can experience time, it just has no effect on him.
3. It's just like if you were a very predictable person. People can know what you're going to do, but you dont, so that means its still new to you. And if you were a compulsive liar, you can still lie, but the person knows you are lying.
4. He loves and is so loving, that he is willing to let us make our own decisions. We are corrupt, so we make wrong decisions.
5. A square circle doesnt exist, they are two seperate things that are only what they are because they are unlike the other. The question itself is invalid. It's like asking if I can make a blue red.
6. For some event in the future? To fulfill some prophecy? To fulfill his plan? I cant read God's mind. God was just there. Something had to be first, why not God. I dont completely understand it, but I will in Heaven.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 06:42 PM
Time is neccesary for thought and act. The move you CAN make, however, is that God doesn't need time - but then you have to think whether that's logically impossbile or not, and if it is, then see your answer to 5.

You've also misunderstood 3). If God is all-knowing, then he KNOWS what you will do in the future. He doesn't predict it, he KNOWS. Therefore there is no free will, therefore you cannot say that evil is caused by our free will. (I'm not saying this is actually true, but I'm saying it like it's a fact so that you can mull it over).\

Otherwise, excellent answers. I would urge you to read what else I said, though, please.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 06:58 PM
Yes, he knows. He knows exactly what we're going to do. But we dont. It's new to us. He's just watching from above. Like watching a re-run of a tv show.

EDIT- Hell is described a bit in the Bible, tahst how I know vaguely what its like. I cant go back in an edit to look what eklse was said, so I'll post another post in another post. oh, and time isnt necessary, if I was trapped on an island with no source of time, in a cave lit by never ending torches, I could still live and think and exist. God is oblivious to time, he created it, he has power over it.

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 07:04 PM
Right, except I sort of showed you that it isn't "one of the youngest" as there are dozens of countries that are a whole lot 'younger'.

Of course, this discussion is utterly pointless as you haven't actually said how being one of the "youngest" is actually a 'good' thing. Is East Timor a whole lot better than America just because it's younger?

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Gabez
Okay, I updated my post with more stuff in the time it took you to reply. Go read it again.

The devil is a poor reason for evil. If you must know, then the only philisophically satisfying answer that I know of to the problem of evil is that God wants us to be perfect, and we can only become perfect through free will, therefore God can't intervene with our affairs, therefore evil is allowed, but eventaully everyone will be made perfect and the end will justify the means.

Problems with this: even if we're all perfect in the end, it still doesn't justufy a naked boy of six being ripped apart by hounds whilst his mother watches. There's no reason for that. Problem #2 is that if God is all powerful, surely He can intervine without ruining our free will (debatable, but I won't go into that). Ditto for the Holocaust - that does not sound like the act of an all-loving God, and seriously contradicts itself.

Doomgiver: I see the Bible as a description of ethics rather than an explanation to life the universe and everything (to nick a book title).

God doesnt want us to be perfect, well, he does, but he doesnt expect it. He knows we sin and we have a sin nature. And we will only be perfect in Heaven, not on earth. God didnt create the holocaust and I dont know why he allowed it, maybe for some plan in the future? I'm not God, only he knows.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Right, except I sort of showed you that it isn't "one of the youngest" as there are dozens of countries that are a whole lot 'younger'.

Of course, this discussion is utterly pointless as you haven't actually said how being one of the "youngest" is actually a 'good' thing. Is East Timor a whole lot better than America just because it's younger?

It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 07:22 PM
Most people in the US consider anything that seems to the the left of their ideas to be Liberal. There are actually five categories of ideology, not two or three. Listed from left to right, they are:

* Radical
* Liberal
* Moderate
* Republican
* Reactionary

Most Americans label themselves as liberal to conservative. Very few label themselves as radical, while virtually none of them label themselves as reactionary. Many that call themselves conservative actually seem far more reactionary. For example, anybody who seriously agrees with the platforms of either the Libertarian or Reform parties are thoroughly reactionary. Most of the fiery "conservative" show hosts such as O'Rielly or Limbaugh are also more reactionary than conservative. In fact, there really is no major real major news network in the USA that's more liberal than conservative, aside from the BBC, which has only medium liberal leanings. CNN has a mildly conservative stance, while ABC, NBC, and CBS are fully conservative. Of course, ABC is owned by Disney (easily a strongly conservative company), while NBC is owned by General Electric (conservative as well).
Fox, on the other hand, is insanely right-wing. Supporting any administration through all its mistakes is not patriotic; it's favoring dictatorship.


You try reading European newspapers before you claim American media to be "liberal".

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 07:29 PM
why would I read european newspapers? cause they talk about things I care about. (sarcasm) and the media is liberal as mess. ask almost any american and they'd agree. Here' tomorrow, I'll go to the store and ask if the media is liberal to ten or twenty people and give my results. hough I cant prove them, I'm an honorable person, so its up to you whether or not you'd like to believe me.

Gabez
07-13-2004, 07:31 PM
Okay, so you say God knows exactly what we are going to do. Say, He knows that tomorow you will wear a blue jumper.

So tomorow comes and you bring out of your closet at random two jumpers. One is blue, one is red. You ponder for a while which one to wear, before finally deciding on the blue one - out of your own free will. Or is it? If God already knew, then surely the decision is already made - and thus you had no choice but to choose the blue jumper, thus you had no choice at all.

You have also misunderstood by what I mean by time. You say that if you were trapped on an island "with no source of time" - I pressume you mean a way of telling the time, like a clock. This isn't what I mean at all. Clocks are not time, they simply measure time.

Imagine seeing the world from 2 dimensions instead of 3. To see an object move would look like:

--
----
------
----
--

etc. etc. It is passing through time, and needs time in order to move. Time is simply progress of things. Without time nothing can function. I hope this makes it clearer.

God wants us to love and worship him, and become "like his image" (BADLY misquoted - I'm sorry but I don't have a Bible near me), and the only way to do that is through free will, as perfection can not come ready made. We will be perfect in heaven, yes, but in order for that to be so, we need to have the chance to sin against God in earth - if that makes any sense.

I don't think it's good enough to say "Dunno about the Hollocaust" - I suggest you visit Auswitches (sp) and then think about it.

Also, I have a personal question, just out of interest: do you believe in the Bible word for word? I'm not trying to make a point here, I'm just curious.

On the subject of America: don't forget that the country has had a lot of advantages other "crappy" (meaning inferior) countries have not had. Lots of fresh land, lots of immigrants bringing skills, democracy (because said immigrants wanted more freedom), the combination of many states etc. etc. I could go on. You could easily see America as Britain's lovechild, or something. Anyway, the point is that we are all global citizens of this earth. Think of it like a playground. A group of kids who used to be in Britain, France, spain etc.'s gang have joined their own gang and done very well. Egypt is the old caretaker who is being made fun of by the child gangs. The European powers are the older boys, but they don't have the strenght of youth anymore, but they're becoming more united. etc. etc.

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.


It's terribly amusing that a Christian makes that claim. They do totally reject Jesus Christ, you know.
Israel was founded illegally, the state of Israel shouldn't even exist. The founding of Israel is what has brought instability to the entire region and it is the atrocities committed by the war criminal Sharon that worsen this instability. Israel is at the heart of the struggle.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "got so far".
Economically, Japan and China probably have much greater economic growth rates than America has ever had.
But it isn't like America has managed anything on its own. Exploitation of other countries is the prime mover of American foreign policy, and were it not for the illegal labour of Asian sweatshops, the American economy would implode. China and Japan have managed their economic achievements on their own.

Socially, America is awfully backwards. America desperately clings on to way outdated values and traditions. I think I've covered this point in depth.

And yes, an awful lot of people would take offense to being called "crappy" countries, and rightly so. I think it is a perfect example of how Americans percieve the rest of the world, and a perfect example of why the world hates America.
I have travelled to many of the former Soviet states, and to various Middle-Eastern countries, and I very much enjoyed my stay there. They were lovely countries, and I would certainly enjoy living there, if I could get used to the climate.

Western culture is terribly individualistic, you look out for number one, it's a dog eat dog world, every man is out for himself, etc. Middle-Eastern culture is very community-based, a very social culture. I once took a camel ride through a small village in Egypt, and I found that on the corner of every other street, there was a barrel. This barrel had water in it, and a metal cup next to it. Anyone could come and drink from it and no-one paid anything. Some bloke would have to fill up this barrel every morning, but he wouldn't get any money for it.
In the west, this would seem ridiculous, getting something for free, without a catch, but in Egypt this was normal, because everyone looks after everyone else.

I liked that.

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old. Stupid american, I guess you don't know anything outside your own country. This statement does not mean all americans are stupid, only the likes of you.

Israel was founded illegally, the state of Israel shouldn't even exist. The founding of Israel is what has brought instability to the entire region and it is the atrocities committed by the war criminal Sharon that worsen this instability. Israel is at the heart of the struggle.The f*ck are you talking about? It was very legally! There was a UN vote and all.

Mort-Hog
07-13-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
why would I read european newspapers? cause they talk about things I care about. (sarcasm) and the media is liberal as mess. ask almost any american and they'd agree. Here' tomorrow, I'll go to the store and ask if the media is liberal to ten or twenty people and give my results. hough I cant prove them, I'm an honorable person, so its up to you whether or not you'd like to believe me.


Read my post.

The reason you'd read European newspapers is so you'd actually get an idea of what's going on in the world.

Just because they say the media is liberal doesn't make it so.
The reason Americans would say the media is liberal is because they're stupid. It isn't liberal at all.

It's only because you're so used to crazy super right-wing conservatism that anything slightly less conservative is instantly branded 'liberal'.

Read my post.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 08:01 PM
And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. back up what you say, tfighter. Dont call someone stupid, then not explain why. And Israel may be mostly jewish, not believing in Jesus, but Israel is largely popular in the Bible and Jesus lived there. Ever hear of free samples? But some of the Mid. East is good, but alot is bad. Just like everywhere. And you get onto me for looking down on other countries! You are just the same way, Mort. But with America.

tFighterPilot
07-13-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. back up what you say, tfighter. Dont call someone stupid, then not explain why. And Israel may be mostly jewish, not believing in Jesus, but Israel is largely popular in the Bible and Jesus lived there. Ever hear of free samples? But some of the Mid. East is good, but alot is bad. Just like everywhere. And you get onto me for looking down on other countries! You are just the same way, Mort. But with America. I don't look down at America, I know a lot of americans, most of them are ok.

And you know what? I believe in what Jesus meant to do, not what the christians turned it into.

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 08:09 PM
I was actually talking to Mort. And When I called the countries crappy, I meant most besides the ones mentioned. I probably should have clarified that.

Lyrnx
07-13-2004, 09:47 PM
For all of you wondering what Hell might be like read
Gehenna. Excellent book! Tells what Hell is most like, even mentions Dante'. I would advise though that Gehenna IS NOT FOR CHILDREN! I, a teen, read it and parts even disgusted me.
Other then that it is excellent. Of course Gehenna is nowwhere near how horrible Hell really is....


Lyrnx

yaebginn
07-13-2004, 10:26 PM
it intrigues me. I'll have to give it a look. thanx for the suggestion.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
I was actually talking to Mort. And When I called the countries crappy, I meant most besides the ones mentioned. I probably should have clarified that. It's just that by saying crappy, you show that you know nothing about it. Probably all you know is that they're dictatorships, hell, that's about all I know. You can't really judge any country, even an arab country, before you've been there. Note that I have no intention to go to any arab country ever.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 08:07 AM
You ahve been MOST busy while i was sleeping. Can someone give me a quick recap of what's going on?

Mort-Hog
07-14-2004, 08:16 AM
I would never be so blatantly ignorant as to describe any country as "crappy".

Nor would I be so blatantly arrogant as to describe any country as "best".

I am simply outlining the negative aspects of America, of which there are numerous. My posts are in response to yours.



Note that I have no intention to go to any arab country ever.


Right, and this alone is proof that anything you have to say about Arab countries is utterly meaningless. And it is also proof of how effective the anti-arab propaganda is in America.

Not only do you soak up the heavily distorted picture of those countries you see, but even when you accept that distortion you have no interest in actually finding out what they are like.

Why do you have no intention of visiting the Middle East?

They all have lovely climates, if you choose the time of year carefully. The red sea is great for going diving. Libya is opening its borders and has an interesting mix of socialist and Muslim culture that I very much hope to experience before it becomes too touristy. Egypt is particularly fascinating, with its ancient history, and I would advise everyone to visit Egypt at least once in their life.
Yes, there are some countries that you probably won't get into, like Iran, or Saudi Arabia. You definitely won't get into Mecca in Saudio Arabia.


As for Israel...

It is World War 1, and Britain and Germany are at war. Germany is essentially defeating Britain, but cannot afford to continue and so is trying to negociate peace with Britain. They want to go back to what it was like before the war. Britain is seriously considering this option, but then the Jews come along. The World Zionist Organisation say to Britain that they can get America to enter the war and defeat Germany, if Britain gives them Palestine.
Britain agrees, even though Britain had no claim to Palestine at all. Britain was giving the WZO land that didn't belong to them. That is illegal.

Even so, you cannot deny the current illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal construction work of the wall across the Gaza strip.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 08:20 AM
Right, and this alone is proof that anything you have to say about Arab countries is utterly meaningless. And it is also proof of how effective the anti-arab propaganda is in America.This alone makes your argumant about me meaningless, cuz I live in Israel. You know it's not very safe for an Israeli to go to an arab country.

The UN agreement was to devide Israel\Palastine into two countries, and arab country and Israel. The arabs weren't cool with that and attacked us. We won. Simple as that.

B1GC
07-14-2004, 10:14 AM
Why would anyone want to go to the middle east its like a beach without water. I tell you what if I lived there I would be pissed at the world too. Nothing but sand, I actually feel sorry for the people over there.

Mort, you say that if we believe in God we should follow Islam, but what did Muhammed ever do? Jesus healed tons of people, he was a kind person who just asked for people to folow him and love God, he wanted nothing else. He even rose from the dead. What did Muhammed do that was so great? Did he rise from the dead...if not what can be more powerful than that?

another theing Mort, you said earlier that terrosim has just begun adn that tons of suicide bombers will terorise us. Then you talk about Germany and Britin in WWI. Do not speak of both things. The Germans (who I am not defending) in WWI and WWII fought with honor directly in front of their enemy. The Muslims faith fights like P*ssies. I mean yall want to win by sneaking around, that bs. I mean who in the right mind will be told to go kill themselves says, "hell yea great idea, I am going to go kill myself" wow. fight like you have a pair

Americans are voer there standing in the middle of the road with his M16 waiting for someone to come out and challenge them, but no you go around and crawl up on your hands and knees and blow yourself up. What can get more lame than that?

1 other thing, you think that we are becoming afraid of you. But i have more and more friends going into the military just so they can get a chance to kill a couple turban heads

edit: yes i do mean the terrorist muslims (sorry just used to genral of a term)

Doomie
07-14-2004, 10:25 AM
Hey! First off: You are aclling all muslims pussies! You mean to say: All terrorrists that blow themselves up are pussies.

Muslims have this thing called 'jihad' or holy ar, and if you die during the holy war, you go straight to heaven. that's why they blow themselves up. It's easy, efficient, and they go stright to heaven. They are int heir right minds, only they're not afraid to die.

But i have more and more friends going into the military just so they can get a chance to kill a couple turban heads

That is a lame reason and i do hope you mean terrorrists by that.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by B1GC
Why would anyone want to go to the middle east its like a beach without water. I tell you what if I lived there I would be pissed at the world too. Nothing but sand, I actually feel sorry for the people over there.
What a jolly show of ignorance :D

The only beach I know have water, not like I've seen it lately, cuz I'm a geek and all, but it's only a few minutes away. Yes, there is a desert in Israel, it's called the negev. But if you look to the north it's all green. :D

Mort-Hog
07-14-2004, 10:51 AM
Oh right. Yes, it probably isn't a good idea for Jews to travel in the Middle East, even less so Israelis. But lots of people hate Jews, not just Arabs.



Mort, you say that if we believe in God we should follow Islam, but what did Muhammed ever do? Jesus healed tons of people, he was a kind person who just asked for people to folow him and love God, he wanted nothing else. He even rose from the dead. What did Muhammed do that was so great?


No, Muhammed didn't do any Jesus-style parlour tricks and didn't have to bribe followers with cheap 'miracles'. Muhammed personally is irrelevant, he never claimed to be the son of God, he never claimed to live forever, he never claimed to be any more than an honest merchant.
All he did was speak forth the word of God, and he changed the world just by that word. He didn't have to conjour up some tricks to try and 'prove' himself. It was not Muhammed that made a difference, it was God. Muhammed was merely his messenger.
I think it is a tribute to the power of Islam that people follow him simply by his word, and did not need magic tricks to see that he was speaking the word of God.



Americans are voer there standing in the middle of the road with his M16 waiting for someone to come out and challenge them, but no you go around and crawl up on your hands and knees and blow yourself up. What can get more lame than that?


This is the new age of war.

You forget that these soldiers are killing themselves for their cause. They are willingly giving their own lives. Think about that. You believe in things, I'm sure, believe in things strongly. Strongly enough to blow yourself up over it?

The American soldiers might consider themselves "patriots" because they are fighting for their country. Yes, they are willing to kill for their cause, but are they willing to die?
They are putting themselves in a position where they are likely to die, yes, but that is certainly not the same thing as actually killing yourself.
If American soldiers were told that they had to carry a bomb right up to a target and detonate themselves, do you seriously think many would do that?

Throughout history, Americans military tactics have always been in order to prevent American deaths, and the actual cause for fighting has come second.

In Vietnam, Americans bombed thousands of Vietnamese because a dozen of them might be Vietcong. They took civilian Vietnamese lives in order to protect American soldiers.

In Korea, Americans bombed hundreds of refugees, the infamous Kill-em-all tactic, because they were afraid that Chinese might be hiding within them. They took civilian Korean lives in order to protect American soldiers.

In Iraq, Americans bombed thousands of Iraqi civilians, in the Shock-and-Awe campaign and others, because they were afraid that resistance fighters might be among them.
The most notable example of this is where Americans found a large group of people firing weapons into the air in a remote area of Iraq. They were afraid that they were resistance fighters, and they bombed them all. They later discovered that it was a wedding party, and they were setting off fireworks.
If the Americans had sent out one or two American soldiers in a car to find out exactly what it was, they would have saved those Iraqi civilians. Yes, if they were resistance fighters the Americans would probably have been killed, but they are soldiers and that is their job. But it is because the Americans are willing to do anything in order to prevent American military fatalities that is the cause of such ridiculous civilian death tolls.

In the style of war that Americans (and pretty much everyone else too) are used to is the standard military encounter of enemy soldiers advancing across a battlefield and your soldiers move towards them and they fight (yes, there are countless tactics such as moving in across the flanks and such but that is essentially it). The one that kills the enemy wins.

That age of war is over. This is the new age of war.

This is suicide guerella war.

The Americans are fighting an enemy that are willing to kill themselves fighting. They are totally willing to die. How can you possibly fight against that?
And this is a war not of individuals, but of causes. This is like the Cold War, except this is actually war.
For the Americans, protecting individual soldiers is the key. For the resistance fighters, individuals are irrelevant. Osama bin Laden is not important. If he is killed, it will make no difference. For every fighter that is killed, a dozen more will join the cause, and it is that cause, that hatred for America, that is the key.
The children of those slaughtered by the Americans at that wedding party, can you imagine how they will grow up? They will grow up without parents or siblings because of the Americans. They will grow up desperately hating America, and willing to do everything in their power to attack it. The Americans have already spawned the suicide bombers of the future.

What is more "lame"? The soldier that merely sits in his plane and presses a button, or the fighter that carries a bomb right up to his target and detonates himself.

What is more "lame"? The soldier that joined the army just to get some extra money to get through college, or the fighter that joined the cause with nothing but determination and hatred?

What is more "lame"? The soldier that has millions of dollars of technology at his disposal, or the fighter that uses his body as a weapon?

The answers are not actually important, because the cause is always growing in size, growing in hatred and growing in determination, this is why the Americans will surely lose.

Fighting the "war on terror" with old-style military tactics is not working. It will not work and it cannot work.

Unless something changes in American foreign policy, America will lose.

Perhaps it is already too late.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 10:54 AM
Oh right. Yes, it probably isn't a good idea for Jews to travel in the Middle East, even less so Israelis. But lots of people hate Jews, not just Arabs.The fact that you're a f*cking nazi doesn't mean the whole world is. I think the people from www.racist-jokes.com are missing you you stupid ****.

Gabez
07-14-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. *sigh* I'm not questioning the nature of the Judeo-Christian God. I know that. I know that He is not effected by time, but you are missing my point. Read my post properly.

... Or I might as well give up, because if you're not going to read and understand what I'm saying, then there's no point.

About the countries thing: c'mon, people. All countries and people are equal - just some governments work "better" than others. Just because the US is currently doing very well doesn't mean that it's superior in the world. Just look at history - America is onlu enjoying a brief spell of success.

Also, FighterPilot - I might be wrong, but I think you've misunderstood Mort. :~

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Gabez
*sigh* I'm not questioning the nature of the Judeo-Christian God. I know that. I know that He is not effected by time, but you are missing my point. Read my post properly.

... Or I might as well give up, because if you're not going to read and understand what I'm saying, then there's no point.

About the countries thing: c'mon, people. All countries and people are equal - just some governments work "better" than others. Just because the US is currently doing very well doesn't mean that it's superior in the world. Just look at history - America is onlu enjoying a brief spell of success.

Also, FighterPilot - I might be wrong, but I think you've misunderstood Mort. :~ I doubt it, the man supports terrorism.

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 11:26 AM
thats what I got out of it. And blowing themselves up fopr a cause, what a load of crap! They think that when they die they will get 70 something virgins. Do the math! Men dont outnumber women that much, especially women who've never had sex. There is no logic. Suicide bombers arent heroic, there are ignorant. Even like with Israel vs. Palaestine. Israel's been holding it's hold since way beofre I was born. I actually was considering going down there, but with the war and all, I can't until I turn 18. (House Rules) This guy went there and told me how awesome it was. Hey, tfighter do you know Hebrew?

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
thats what I got out of it. And blowing themselves up fopr a cause, what a load of crap! They think that when they die they will get 70 something virgins. Do the math! Men dont outnumber women that much, especially women who've never had sex. There is no logic. Suicide bombers arent heroic, there are ignorant. Even like with Israel vs. Palaestine. Israel's been holding it's hold since way beofre I was born. I actually was considering going down there, but with the war and all, I can't until I turn 18. (House Rules) This guy went there and told me how awesome it was. Hey, tfighter do you know Hebrew? LMAO! That must be the stupidest question EVER! :D

Let's ask now someone from france if he know french :D

Gabez
07-14-2004, 11:39 AM
The whole "America is the best country in the world" really irks me. Just WHY is it better than other countries?

Doomie
07-14-2004, 11:47 AM
Erm... like i asked before, can someone tell me what the heck you've been talking about in my absence? Anyway, about america being the best: That's one of the things we're discussing. Man, the topic's all over the place.

ooh, is that a piece of filosify on the floor there?

By the way, Yaeb, why are you so pro-american, you said you live in Denmark, and you talked Dutch very weird :)

Was that on purpose?

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 12:32 PM
Actually, I said I wa smoving to denamrk, I'm not now, though. I love the Hebrew language. I heard some lady sing in it once, its beautiful.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 12:33 PM
I bet... Though i haven't. Let's see if there's something for me to say to get back on topic... hmmm, no.

Well, let's just get back on topic then.

Gabez
07-14-2004, 12:44 PM
Here's some more Philosophy of Religion for you:

"Are things good because God says they are, or does God simply command things which are good?"

If the former is true, then God will be theoretically able to say ANYTHING is good. So He might make murder "good" - but does that really make it good?

If the latter is the case, then God Himself adhears to a set of external laws of morality, which is against the nature of the God of classical theism, because there is nothing greater than God. Nothing above Him. He answers to nothing. And yet a set of moral laws which even He follows would suggest that there is.

I'll just stress that the points I am raising are key philoshopical dilemas that have been debated for thousands of years (the above was thought up by Plato, for instance) - so please don't just say "Ah, but God is good!" or words to that effect.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 12:48 PM
Heh, nice new sig... right from this very thread:D

Oh, i know a way to get abck on topic: About the tiem, and free will thing. What if God sees you will wear a blue jacket tomorrow, and then you go to your closet, and decide to take the red one. You see, as Yoda said so nicely before me, 'always in motion, the future is.' because 'the future' is created as we make desicions. And there is no way of knowing what those desicions will be if you do not make them.

erm, Tfighterpilot, you probably DID misunderstand Mort.There's no indication of him being Neo-nazi in any of the posts i read, he's just saying that there ARE many Neo-nazi's and racists in the world.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
Heh, nice new sig... right from this very thread:D

Oh, i know a way to get abck on topic: About the tiem, and free will thing. What if God sees you will wear a blue jacket tomorrow, and then you go to your closet, and decide to take the red one. You see, as Yoda said so nicely before me, 'always in motion, the future is.' because 'the future' is created as we make desicions. And there is no way of knowing what those desicions will be if you do not make them.

erm, Tfighterpilot, you probably DID misunderstand Mort.There's no indication of him being Neo-nazi in any of the posts i read, he's just saying that there ARE many Neo-nazi's and racists in the world. Yeah, nazi isn't the word, I meant pro terrorist.

To bring some humor to this thread
http://www.kgov.com/gallery/20010911/terrorist-on-fire.jpg

Doomie
07-14-2004, 01:07 PM
Uhm, no, he's just making a good point. He just compares the terrorrists with the americans.

Actually, he's also wrong. He says that Americans have bombed innocent people a lot because they didn't want to send in soldiers that may have gotten hurt. But terrorrists also blow up everything in a wide area. two american soldiers in a flat full of civilians, a terrorrist wanting to blow them up, the entire flat goes down. It's the same.

But he's not really supporting terrorrists, he's saying that the American way of fighting is stupid.

A wedding party... sucks to be them.



But i hafta admit, funny pic. but the text with it is even better :D

Gabez
07-14-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
Oh, i know a way to get abck on topic: About the tiem, and free will thing. What if God sees you will wear a blue jacket tomorrow, and then you go to your closet, and decide to take the red one. You see, as Yoda said so nicely before me, 'always in motion, the future is.' because 'the future' is created as we make desicions. And there is no way of knowing what those desicions will be if you do not make them.But if God can see what you'll wear tomorow as yaebginn says He does, then the future is not "always in motion", and it is not created as we make those decisions.

Also: great picture! But WTF is up with that flag? Judging by the number of stars it looks like an anitque. :~

B1GC
07-14-2004, 01:20 PM
Mort, you make absolutly no sense

The new war is everyone commintg suicide? what kind of messed up lunitic are you. The reason all these people are committing suicide is that they are like yaeb said...ignorant. What kind of religon commands its followers to commit suicide, sounds like something the devil would do to me. Its not an act of honor to kill yourself for a cause, its stupid. The reason Americans bomb and use tactics is to prevent loss of your own soldiers and kill the other guy.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General Gerorge Patton
The Third Army of WWII

Terrorism will never survive for that very reason. Eventaully they will kill themselves off. It has been 3 years since a terrorist attack on US soil, where are all these attacks you speak of? Maybe there not coming becasue we took the war to the terroists. Do it again or two more times, even three, things will become very bad for your so called terroists that you so proudly support. What happend after Pearl Harbor? America does not like seeing its citizens die. If it is our own fault then they get mad at the government....but if its someone elses fault (terroism)...we take it out on them.

America was founded by people who left their homes to come hear. These people were adventures, convicts, people not afraid of the unknown. This is still in the blood of the people today. America will never lay down and die. If we do go out, we will take quite a few with us.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 01:26 PM
Spoken like a warrior.
But if God can see what you'll wear tomorow as yaebginn says He does, then the future is not "always in motion", and it is not created as we make those decisions.

In that case, the only option is: God controls our every move. Ain't it creepy? But then, why not make people believe in him since they'll go to hell otherwise? Because he wants to? That's hardly loving and caring, wanting to see more than half of the worlds population burn in hell... Or maybe heaven's full?

Gabez
07-14-2004, 01:30 PM
I can't speak too much for Mort, but it is painfully obvious that he is not supporting Terrorists. He seems to be just saying that the wars of the future will be fought through Terrorism, not on the battlefield, and fighting on the battlefield (e.g. Iraq) is not going to win the fight of Terrorism (e.g. 9/11).

"Eventually they will kill themselves off" - there are many many terrorists and more being made every day. If they kill themselves in battle, then they become matyrs. Personally I agree totally with you - this is lunacy. But that's what they think, unfortunately.

"It has been 3 years since a terrorist attack on US soil, where are all these attacks you speak of?" - oh, so just beause there hasn't been a terrorist attack on US soil means that there haven't been any terrorist attacks! Because of course America is the only country that counts! Gee, thanks. Try telling that to the Terrorist victims in Europe.

"These people were adventures, convicts, people not afraid of the unknown." - you make it sound like it was a picninc in the park. My American history is a little rusty, so I won't comment on this too much, but I understood that most of the immigrants were terrified.

"If we do go out, we will take quite a few with us." - true, but the same can be said for any big country.

Doomgiver: exactly! (Although there is another way out of it, but I don't want to go into that because it's more fun to have people think about it)

Doomie
07-14-2004, 02:06 PM
Aw c'mon, what is the other way? personally, i don't see it.

But it's true, terrorrist groups keep growing. First, they create Chaos by having two or three people blow themselves up, then they say it's the American's fault all those people died in terrorrist attacks, because since the Americans came to iraq, there have been more terrorrist attacks, and about twenty people join their cause to chase away the Americans. Sure, they will die out eventualy, but the always take down hundreds of people at the cost of only one, and even more will join then. I think we'll be out of soldiers before they're out of terrorrists...

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 02:15 PM
I know there's been other attacks, Spain for instance. Ok, one thing, Yoda said the future is always in motion, not God. I suppose you believe in the Force and tauntauns as well, huh? God lts us choose to embrace him becasue he loves us enough to let us make our own decisions. and gabez, you are obviously a liberal. Or a Michael Moore fan. I made a mistake in typing, then posted the correct thing later, and you post the mistake. I clarified it later on that he doesnt send us to hell, we choose to go. Which all of those who have knowledge of the Christian religion, yewt dotn follow it are doing. tfighter, awesome pic, I may make it my background. Alright, about the things being good, Gabez. Neither is true. Things are good because God made it that way. Not because he said it was or commanded it to be so. Some things arent good, and those were things created by God but with Satan's influence of them. Man is good, but gays are not. Gays are men with Satan's influence.

Gabez
07-14-2004, 02:16 PM
Well I haven't yet studied the way around this problem fully, but I know that questioning the nature of knowledge goes some way to offering a solution for Theists.

Basically - God has all knowledge, but "knowledge" only applies to things that haven't happened yet. For this to be true, God would not be able to be outside time, though, but instead inside time, but eternal.

here's an idea for if He was outside time and looking into our time though (imagine it as a man in a helicopter looking down on a road):

You were also onto something, I think, when you said that the future is constantly unfolding - this got me thinking that maybe our decisions have already been made by us "in the past" for God, who is in the future, but because He is timeless, it means that the future God is the same as the present day God, thus even though He knows what we'll do tomorow, it would be like a time-traveller from the future coming back to the present day and telling us and knowing what we'll do tomorow. If they simply know it, then we still have free will, because we will be uninflurenced the next day, and the time-traveller's knowledge only comes from what he has learnt in the future. If they tell us what we will wear tomorow then we no longer have true free will to wear what we want. God could be like that, being like the time traveller, only at every point in time at once.

This is purely an interlectual exercise, though, as the solutions to these problems have already been discussed to death by philosophers. It's still fun to think about them, though!

Doomie
07-14-2004, 02:26 PM
Yoda said the future is always in motion, not God. I suppose you believe in the Force and tauntauns as well, huh?

I only quoted Yoda because he was right about it. It's not like starwars is (God what am i saying) real.

Well, as a time traveler, being at every point in time at once is easy. Since there are multiple times we're speaking of, 'at once' does not apply. Today and yesterday don't happen at the same time, right? So all you have to do is go to every time in... um... time, and there you have it.

But the way you say it, we have no free will. It is just impossible to predict the future, you can only see a possible future, since all the desicions have yet to be made. Only if God controlled all our minds, he would be able to know what we'll do. WEll, maybe not control, but if our lives have been planned by Him since we were born, that'd be a pretty good explanation.

Gabez
07-14-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
Alright, about the things being good, Gabez. Neither is true. Things are good because God made it that way. Not because he said it was or commanded it to be so. Some things arent good, and those were things created by God but with Satan's influence of them. Man is good, but gays are not. Gays are men with Satan's influence. "Are things good because God says they are, or does God simply command things which are good?"

You're talking about evil things - such as being gay, in your opinion, but I'll leave that for now - I'm talking about what is GOOD. Okay, so we can turn the question around to apply to evil - according to what you're saying, God says things are evil because they are evil (which are evil, in their own right, because of "Satan's influence of them").

Okay. You're missing the point here - you've got to ask WHY does God say that gays are evil? (I don't think He does, but for the sake of this argument we'll just pressume you're right). Your answer will most likely be "because the Devil had influrence on men, turning them gay". Okay then, WHY are things which have the influrence of the devil on them evil? "Because the devil is evil according to God" - okay, so God says the Devil is evil. Fine. But where does He get that moral fact from? Did He say that the Devil was evil, and that just MADE whatever Satan did evil? Or did God look at what Satan did (e.g. the way he rebelled in Heaven) and said "that's not good" - in which case, how does God know that what Satan did wasn't good? The answer to that is that there are some universal moral laws - e.g. murdering is wrong - that God agrees to, which is why He said that Satan is evil. But if that is the case, then these are external moral laws that are above God - and that goes against the nature of the Judeo-Christian understanding of God through the teachings of the Bible.

Mort-Hog
07-14-2004, 02:26 PM
Ahah, you're now following the 1970s and 80s line of thought regarding suicide bombers.

Firstly, you're ignoring that there are typically two different types of suicide bomber, following two different organisations.

* There is the religious suicide bomber, to which most of you are referring. These are such as HAMAS, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. They feel that their religion is threatened and they are attacking their oppressors. They tend to be fighting for a very abstract and unspecific cause.

* There is the political suicide bomber. The Kurdistan Worker's Party, the Tamil Tigers, and Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade are all strictly political organisations. Al Queda fit into this catagory, too.



The reason all these people are committing suicide is that they are like yaeb said...ignorant.


47% of the suicide bombers have an academic education and an additional 29% have at least a high school education.

Suicide bombers are not uneducated.

The traditional profile of a suicide bomber from the 70s and 80s is largely incorrect.

Suicide bombers can be male or female. Chechen suicide bombers are largely female.

Suicide bombers tend to be between 18 and 25, but older suicide are not uncommon. Many have children and families.

The only common thread is that they have bitter experiences of state terror.


"Without exception, the suicide bombers have lived their lives on the receiving end of a system designed to trample their rights and crush every hope of a brighter future… Confronted by a seemingly endless combination of death, destruction, restriction, harassment and humiliation, they conclude that ending life as a bomb - rather than having it ended by a bullet - endows them, even if only in their final moments, with a semblance of purpose and control previously considered out of reach."

From Middle East News Online


This war is not against individuals, it is against a cause as a whole.

76% of Palestinians support the suicide bombings, and that support has no sign of dropping.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 02:37 PM
"Without exception, the suicide bombers have lived their lives on the receiving end of a system designed to trample their rights and crush every hope of a brighter future… Confronted by a seemingly endless combination of death, destruction, restriction, harassment and humiliation, they conclude that ending life as a bomb - rather than having it ended by a bullet - endows them, even if only in their final moments, with a semblance of purpose and control previously considered out of reach." Hey, i missed that part. Well, you seem to think that Suicide bombers are like this: The government has been harrassing them so long, that they got depressed, and instead of a bullet, that's safe, they chose to blow up countless of other people wiht them because they're *******s right?

NO! They do this for a cause that seems just to them. Not because they are so depressed, but because they are so brave to die fighting their enemy. Because, if you don't fear death, is their anything you do fear? Suicide bombers aren't like people in the west. People in the west commit suicide when their eife leaves them, or when they lose their house, or stuff. But the suicide bombers are fighting a war, and in a damn brave way too.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Ahah, you're now following the 1970s and 80s line of thought regarding suicide bombers.

Firstly, you're ignoring that there are typically two different types of suicide bomber, following two different organisations.

* There is the religious suicide bomber, to which most of you are referring. These are such as HAMAS, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. They feel that their religion is threatened and they are attacking their oppressors. They tend to be fighting for a very abstract and unspecific cause.

* There is the political suicide bomber. The Kurdistan Worker's Party, the Tamil Tigers, and Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade are all strictly political organisations. Al Queda fit into this catagory, too.




47% of the suicide bombers have an academic education and an additional 29% have at least a high school education.

Suicide bombers are not uneducated.

The traditional profile of a suicide bomber from the 70s and 80s is largely incorrect.

Suicide bombers can be male or female. Chechen suicide bombers are largely female.

Suicide bombers tend to be between 18 and 25, but older suicide are not uncommon. Many have children and families.

The only common thread is that they have bitter experiences of state terror.


From Middle East News Online


This war is not against individuals, it is against a cause as a whole.

76% of Palestinians support the suicide bombings, and that support has no sign of dropping. http://www.kgov.com/gallery/terrorism/palestinian/palestinian.html

Doomie
07-14-2004, 02:45 PM
That's shocking. and disturbing. Alright, THAT is not brave. Children who don't even know what they're doing sending right into their doom. That is just disturbed. I'm beginning to get your point now, Tfighter.

Gabez
07-14-2004, 02:50 PM
Yeah, that picture is horrible... suicide bombers are obviously a terrible terrible thing in this world, but then again, trying to use violence to solve problems is always terrible. The only way it can be justified is in cases like World War II - although Hitler should never have got so much power in the first place, and we should never have apeased him. Iraq was not justified, however.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 02:54 PM
Alright, now that that's said, i think the God topic was the most interesting, let's get back ont hat one okay?

Gabez
07-14-2004, 03:05 PM
Good idea.

If you're looking for more stuff to say, look back on my earlier posts (I've said stuff that people haven't challenged yet). Or explain why you think being Gay is evil, because that's another good one (short answer: it cannot be justified morally, only through blind faith - which IMO is a poor reason to hate something for).

Doomie
07-14-2004, 03:33 PM
Exactly. I see nothing evil in being gay. They just love eachother.

And c3po is not gay.

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 03:39 PM
It grew alot! Geez. I'm at the end of page 4 now, and I'll read the rest after this post. One thing, evil is whatever is against God's rules directly. The devil is evil because he rebelled against God. There is no higher set of morals above God because he is the top, he just creates morals. He is the morals. Whatever he says goes because he is perfect and made everything. And suicide bombers also blow themselves up because their families are promises amounts of money or sumsuch. Not for a belief. and being gay is wrong because it is against what God said. The Bibles says 'and man and woman he created them.' them he told them to multiply in number. The whole reason for sex is to multiply in umbet. We dont always use it for that, but thats the whole reason it was made for. And gays are useless, not individually, but their kind is. They contribiute nothing. Like I said, individual gays might, but not them as a whole. and about the suicide bombers. Like in Israel, not only kids, but they attack pizza shops full of teens and stuff. What does that solve other than killing innocents? I mean, if you think suicide bombers are brave, them you are fairly screwed up.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
It grew alot! Geez. I'm at the end of page 4 now, and I'll read the rest after this post. One thing, evil is whatever is against God's rules directly. The devil is evil because he rebelled against God. There is no higher set of morals above God because he is the top, he just creates morals. He is the morals. Whatever he says goes because he is perfect and made everything. And suicide bombers also blow themselves up because their families are promises amounts of money or sumsuch. Not for a belief. and being gay is wrong because it is against what God said. The Bibles says 'and man and woman he created them.' them he told them to multiply in number. The whole reason for sex is to multiply in umbet. We dont always use it for that, but thats the whole reason it was made for. And gays are useless, not individually, but their kind is. They contribiute nothing. Like I said, individual gays might, but not them as a whole. I'm begining to think that you're faking.

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 03:45 PM
faking what?

B1GC
07-14-2004, 03:59 PM
Yes Mort Yaeb brings up a good point. You blame Americans for killing incocent people such as the wedding party where you said we bombed and killed people shooting off fireworks. What you forget is that this incident took place at 4 in the morning, I dont know about your culture but wedding partys dont happen at 4 in the morning. And the area was found to be smuggaling in illegal guns, anywyas, like i was saying.

YOu blame us for killing inocents when at the same time your glorified suicide bombers are killing inocents as well. Innocent people were killed on that bus in Spain. Inocent peopl ewere killed on the planes and in the World Trade Center on 9/11. How can you say these people were any less innocent then the people we may accidently kill over there?

Doomie
07-14-2004, 04:01 PM
he is perfect Aha! Why is He perfect? Because He says so. There's no way of knowing if God (Let's say He's there) is indeed good. Of course, you can says he's good because he told so, but he can also be a lying S.O.B. right? You're just assuming evrything goes because God says so, and God is good, but there's no proof for that now is there?

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 04:09 PM
thats where faith comes in. You need faith in order to be a christian because not everything is proven. You need to believe. Thats why Jesus said we must have the faith of a child. Cause like with Santa, the truly believe it. Santa isnt real, but God is, but Santa is just the closest example I can think of.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 04:11 PM
But do you never question these things? if God suddenly appeared to all christians and said: 'All women are evil! Stone them!' Then would you stone every woman you came across?

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by B1GC
Yes Mort Yaeb brings up a good point. You blame Americans for killing incocent people such as the wedding party where you said we bombed and killed people shooting off fireworks. What you forget is that this incident took place at 4 in the morning, I dont know about your culture but wedding partys dont happen at 4 in the morning. And the area was found to be smuggaling in illegal guns, anywyas, like i was saying.

YOu blame us for killing inocents when at the same time your glorified suicide bombers are killing inocents as well. Innocent people were killed on that bus in Spain. Inocent peopl ewere killed on the planes and in the World Trade Center on 9/11. How can you say these people were any less innocent then the people we may accidently kill over there? So you're saying it's ok to blow up a wedding because terrorists blow up innocents also? That's an interesting logic.

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 04:16 PM
God wouldnt say that because he created women and said that they were good. It is also a sin to murder and that is murder.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 04:20 PM
Ok... so that was a bad example... but you probably get the point right? I'm only trying to find a better one, only i hardly know anything of the bible...

Alright: If he would say jews were evil, would you hate jews?

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 04:33 PM
Jews are God's chosen people. Try again.

Gabez
07-14-2004, 04:38 PM
Good point, Doomgiver!

Originally posted by yaebginn
There is no higher set of morals above God because he is the top, he just creates morals. He is the morals. Whatever he says goes because he is perfect and made everything.

Right, so let's go back to my original question - "Are things good because God says they are, or does God simply command things which are good?" originally you went with the latter, but now you seem to have changed your mind and gone with the former. It is just as problematic, though.

If "whatever he says goes", then what would happen if He said that killing is right? Would that actually make it OK? If God said that stripping a boy of six, raping him and then cutting his limbs off in front of his family was okay, would that suddenly become "good"? Your statement suggest that it would, but it surely, surely wouldn't.

Jeeze in the time it took to read all the replies and click the post button, it seems that ten other people have made exactly that same point. But whatever, I'll post this anyway, and I apoligise for repeating others.

Another point: why do you think that Santa Claus is fake and God is real? In terms of proof, both are equal.

"The whole reason for sex is to multiply in umbet. We dont always use it for that, but thats the whole reason it was made for. And gays are useless"

If the whole reason to have sex is to multiply, then by that logic, you would also rule out contraception (like the Pope) - but surely protection is good because it reduces STDs and pregnacies?

To me, thinking that gays are evil just because of a few lines in the Bible is lunacy - it's very easy to misinterpret the lines, and many of it could have been mistranslated or changed by scholars over the thousands of years. Instead, I think it is more important to go with the GENERAL message of the Bible, not the exact wording - i.e. love (agape love) your fellow human, and don't condemn him, whatever he might do. Saying that someone is evil because they happen to feel the way about men as you feel about women seems to go against Jesus.

Doomie
07-14-2004, 04:59 PM
Jews are God's chosen people. Try again. I always thought christians wnated to turn jews because at the day of reckoning only the christians whould go to heaven or something.

But you are following the meaning of the letter, why you should follow the meaning of the word. Let's not get picky, you knwo what a mean...


Alright, muslims then.

Mort-Hog
07-14-2004, 06:02 PM
For things to change, people have to die.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
For things to change, people have to die. That's the american way

Gabez
07-14-2004, 06:50 PM
I disagree - death is a catalyst, and is sometimes required for short-term change, but it ultimately is limited in changing everything.

But I've been through this with Mort on IRC, so I don't want to go into it here too.

Jed
07-14-2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Gabez
I disagree - death is a catalyst, and is sometimes required for short-term change, but it ultimately is limited in changing everything.

But I've been through this with Mort on IRC, so I don't want to go into it here too.

Agreed. Death is pretty much a temporary catalyst.

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 09:07 PM
God wouldnt say that, becase it contradicts his word. and santa has been proved impossible time and time again, God hasnt. I'm actually not for celibacy or anything like that and about the protection thing, I've said before, sex was made to increase the population, not pleseure, ruling out the need for tht kind of protection. And I never agreed to either the former or the later, I've agreeed with none of those.

tFighterPilot
07-14-2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
God wouldnt say that, becase it contradicts his word. and santa has been proved impossible time and time again, God hasnt. I'm actually not for celibacy or anything like that and about the protection thing, I've said before, sex was made to increase the population, not pleseure, ruling out the need for tht kind of protection. And I never agreed to either the former or the later, I've agreeed with none of those. But USA is democracy, so it's impossible.

Lyrnx
07-14-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
I always thought christians wnated to turn jews because at the day of reckoning only the christians whould go to heaven or something.

They won't go in the Rapture. The only Jews that will be raptured ar the ones that beleive that Christ is the Son of God will. but true jews won't until Christ's second coming at the end of the world.


Gabez... I find it hard to beleive that you are a Jesus Lover like your title states...

Lyrnx
(has left his mark)

yaebginn
07-14-2004, 11:07 PM
Yeah, but in the OT, Jews were God's chosen people, but now that Jesus was born, Christianity is the way to go. I believe Gabez is mocking us. Trying to get a rise out of us, just ignore him.

Doomie
07-15-2004, 04:46 AM
No, don't ignore him. He may not be a jeesus lover, but he brings up soem of the best points in this thread.
They won't go in the Rapture. The only Jews that will be raptured ar the ones that beleive that Christ is the Son of God will. but true jews won't until Christ's second coming at the end of the world

That's what i was talking about. And since you must love your fellow men, you should turn them since you want them to go to heaven... Uhm, why was i trying to make this point again?


Mort-hog, how'd you get a custom title with 176 posts?

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 05:34 AM
g.o.d. :dozey:

Doomie
07-15-2004, 05:41 AM
You're not making much sense there buddy...

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 05:55 AM
err..


i meant m.o.d. .. :p

either he got it or he can do it himself. both ways there is a mod or admin involved.. i think.

but is that important?

Doomie
07-15-2004, 06:01 AM
Yeah, let's get back on topic then shall we?

Oh yes, i remember what point i was trying to make: You guys follow god blindly, simply because God is good. But is it Good because he says so, or can't he do evil things? He should be able to, otherwise he's not all-powerful...

Xirion
07-15-2004, 06:11 AM
2/3 are OVERWEIGHT!
And that is correct, however there is a huge difference between OVERWEIGHT and OBESE
OVERWEIGHT= When your weight doesnt match your Height/weight ratio thingee :P
So i.e if you work out and have more muscle mass therefor weigh more then the height weight ratio, you are over weight, your not fat, but your weight isnt realitive to your height

OBESE= over flowing :P

And i vote for Norway!

Doomie
07-15-2004, 06:18 AM
alright:
1) i hope you're not doing that just because you live there, and
2) we've shifted to a far more interesting topic ages ago... well actually two topics...

How many topics are we dealing with in this thread anyway?

EDIT: Now expalin to me CLEARLY what obese is...

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
alright:
1) i hope you're not doing that just because you live there, and
2) we've shifted to a far more interesting topic ages ago... well actually two topics...

How many topics are we dealing with in this thread anyway?

EDIT: Now expalin to me CLEARLY what obese is... Well there's the original topic, which didn't last, the topic about how america is worse than the rest of the world, which went pretty good, all this dandy religious talk, and wether terrorists are ok or not.

That's about it I think.

Doomie
07-15-2004, 07:39 AM
Whatever, the God topic is by far the most interesting.
Y'know what? Let's make a new thread about it in the senate! Afterall, that's where it belongs...

EDIT: On the otehr hand, let's not do that.

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Doomgiver
.. is it Good because he says so, or can't he do evil things? He should be able to, otherwise he's not all-powerful...

if there is something like "god", who says it's a "he" or "she" (read: person or an entity)? how can we be sure there is "someone" doing some thing? i cannot see why there should be the possibility that it's more like something causing some thing (everything we know and not know).

to the good and bad topic. "seen" from the viewpoint of the universe (err.. no matter how many there are or whatever, i just talk about the whole thing), there is neither good or bad. there are just things happening. if earth explodes what does it mean to the universe? how can it be good or bad? if 2 million people die because of war or a terrorist act, what does it mean to the universe?
nothing. i mean it has no "moral effect" to anyone else that us. i am not even sure if any animal on this planet is effected by it in any concerns (except those we dominated perhabs..). there is of course a social morality we made up, but there no universal morality. our morality has only a meaning to us. i is not necessarily appliable to other lifeforms on this earth or in this universe.
who says what is good or bad? we. why is it bad to kill (murder) someone? because we dont want to get killed ourselfes.
why is stealing bad? because we dont want that our things get stolen.
why should i be nice to others? because we want to be treated nice by others.
..
i think you get the point.

real morality comes if i treat others like i "want" to be treated. that is of course very simple expressen,but it is in fact my view of what real morality is about. so morality comes from the individuals of a social group and not from someone else. of course anyone could write it dont, step upon a milk crate and wave it around proclaiming "hey, i got a bunch-o-laws to follow for ya.". and of course everybody would say "hey. that sounds good. i fully understand and support that. that guy who wrote it is a genius!".

than there is this "anti gay morality" (for example). this is simply what happens if misunderstanding, ignorance, lack of experience and fear of the unknown get together.

i have understanding why there were times where it seemed strange to the young human race on it's way "seperating" from the rest of the animals. but like "same sex sex" is not uncommon between animals i am very sure i wasnt uncommon between early humans. on our way to discover the world with our "new, self conscious" eyes there might have been a point where it seemed .. strange. just like we were "afraid" of lightnings and earthquakes and whatever. mainly because we didnt quite understand what's going on. of course we still are afraid of lightnings and earthquakes nowadays, but in a different way. we consider it as kind of dangerous. but we mostly understand those "phenomenons" now. and we have developed a far wider understanding and knowledge about our sexuality (and body).
of course gay sex is not "useable" to multiply, but it surely isnt more "dangerous" than heterosex. it brings the same "dangers" with it. except one.. you cant get pregnant. (what doesnt seenm to be a danger at all, but i hope you get my meaning..)

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by RayJones
if there is something like "god", who says it's a "he" or "she" (read: person or an entity)? how can we be sure there is "someone" doing some thing? i cannot see why there should be the possibility that it's more like something causing some thing (everything we know and not know).

to the good and bad topic. "seen" from the viewpoint of the universe (err.. no matter how many there are or whatever, i just talk about the whole thing), there is neither good or bad. there are just things happening. if earth explodes what does it mean to the universe? how can it be good or bad? if 2 million people die because of war or a terrorist act, what does it mean to the universe?
nothing. i mean it has no "moral effect" to anyone else that us. i am not even sure if any animal on this planet is effected by it in any concerns (except those we dominated perhabs..). there is of course a social morality we made up, but there no universal morality. our morality has only a meaning to us. i is not necessarily appliable to other lifeforms on this earth or in this universe.
who says what is good or bad? we. why is it bad to kill (murder) someone? because we dont want to get killed ourselfes.
why is stealing bad? because we dont want that our things get stolen.
why should i be nice to others? because we want to be treated nice by others.
..
i think you get the point.

real morality comes if i treat others like i "want" to be treated. that is of course very simple expressen,but it is in fact my view of what real morality is about. so morality comes from the individuals of a social group and not from someone else. of course anyone could write it dont, step upon a milk crate and wave it around proclaiming "hey, i got a bunch-o-laws to follow for ya.". and of course everybody would say "hey. that sounds good. i fully understand and support that. that guy who wrote it is a genius!".

than there is this "anti gay morality" (for example). this is simply what happens if misunderstanding, ignorance, lack of experience and fear of the unknown get together.

i have understanding why there were times where it seemed strange to the young human race on it's way "seperating" from the rest of the animals. but like "same sex sex" is not uncommon between animals i am very sure i wasnt uncommon between early humans. on our way to discover the world with our "new, self conscious" eyes there might have been a point where it seemed .. strange. just like we were "afraid" of lightnings and earthquakes and whatever. mainly because we didnt quite understand what's going on. of course we still are afraid of lightnings and earthquakes nowadays, but in a different way. we consider it as kind of dangerous. but we merely understand those "phenomenons". of course gay sex is not "useable" to multiply, but it surely isnt more "dangerous" than heterosex. it brings the same "dangers" with it. except one.. you cant get pregnant. Very good essay indeed.

I'd like to add. Yaeg, do you also think that hetrosex with contraceptives are wrong also? Cuz you can't get pregnant from it.

BTW, Mort, love your new sig :D

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 08:00 AM
did you really need to quote it all? you did it while i edited and now you didn't quote the changes. nobody would have noticed, but now that i've said it, everyone will. life's so mean.

:D:D:D

ps.. mort's sig is old.

B1GC
07-15-2004, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by tFighterPilot
So you're saying it's ok to blow up a wedding because terrorists blow up innocents also? That's an interesting logic.


If you read it correctly you would know that it was not a wedding party, the terroist jsut made it seem that way so that all the gullable Muslims would see in the news that Amercians killed "innocents" at a wedding party when in actually it was just a fake look alike

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 08:52 AM
wow. next page.. again.. :p

Originally posted by B1GC
.. You blame Americans for killing incocent people such as the wedding party where you said we bombed and killed people shooting off fireworks. What you forget is that this incident took place at 4 in the morning, I dont know about your culture but wedding partys dont happen at 4 in the morning.

i dont know how you define party. but good ones last that long. here where i live the best parties dont start before 0200am. so there is no point if you say, it could not have been because of the TIME. maybe it just was up to the end and that was the "final" firework?

fact is you cannot prove it wasnt a wedding. also, neither can i it was.
still it could have been a terrorist marriage.

hmm. it's the same as if i would say i never saw how a muslemic terrorist flew a jumbo into the wtc. i just saw those jumbo's and the collapsing towers all over the news.

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by B1GC
If you read it correctly you would know that it was not a wedding party, the terroist jsut made it seem that way so that all the gullable Muslims would see in the news that Amercians killed "innocents" at a wedding party when in actually it was just a fake look alike Is that what your liberal media told you? :rolleyes:

It was a fricking wedding.

Or maybe bad people do weddings too :rolleyes:

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 09:48 AM
yes a terrorist wedding, maybe.. and coincidently some us aircrafts flew by. one pilot recognized that one party member sent him spam mails once. maybe he thought "wait. those mails were about explosives!"
and that certain man on the ground thought "hey there is this freak who didnt reply to my advertise mails for fireworks."

..

;P

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by RayJones
yes a terrorist wedding, maybe.. and coincidently some us aircrafts flew by. one pilot recognized that one party member sent him spam mails once. maybe he thought "wait. those mails were about explosives!"
and that certain man on the ground thought "hey there is this freak who didnt reply to my advertise mails for fireworks."

..

;P I didn't understand any of what you just say, but I heartily agree :D

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 10:03 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/plaidder/04/23.html

This is a very good article I read a while ago, I recomend anyone that hasn't read it before to read it now.

yaebginn
07-15-2004, 10:28 AM
If its from the democratic underground, no thanx. That place is as liberal as it gets. God, theoretically, CAN sin, but he doesnt. Like, I can commit suicide, but I choose not to. Or, I can eat my computer mouse right now, but I dont want to. God in Jesus form was tempted to do wrong. He overcame the temptation, though. It wasnt easier for him bcause he was God, he was just perfect.

Lyrnx
07-15-2004, 10:31 AM
"That's what i was talking about. And since you must love your fellow men, you should turn them since you want them to go to heaven... "

You should try to do that. Either way a Jew will go to Heaven.




Lyrnx

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
If its from the democratic underground, no thanx. That place is as liberal as it gets. But everything he wrote there is right. Yes he also wrote his opinions, but the fact you don't agree with them does not mean you can't read it. Democracy is all about understanding even if you disagree.

yaebginn
07-15-2004, 10:45 AM
but these people are viscious liars. They are as bad as michael moore. why would I want to read stuff that isnt true?

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 11:14 AM
again, i would call that ignorant. but that's just me.

tf: you did not understand?? how dare you.. wait.. you agreed.. ok. scratch that. :p

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
but these people are viscious liars. They are as bad as michael moore. why would I want to read stuff that isnt true? Translation: They say the truth, and I can't HANDLE the truth

PanzerTekk
07-15-2004, 11:44 AM
To the first post:

America is only the :best" because of ww2 and how its economy came out of it at full speed.
I guess you can thk the Nazi's for the success of the US post war.
Would it of happened if the war didn't happen? Maybe? Who knows.
A nice what if scenario.

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by PanzerTekk
To the first post:

America is only the :best" because of ww2 and how its economy came out of it at full speed.
I guess you can thk the Nazi's for the success of the US post war.
Would it of happened if the war didn't happen? Maybe? Who knows.
A nice what if scenario. You know, I really hate when people are doing it. Commenting on the first post without seeing that this thread has gone to and entirely different direction.

yaebginn
07-15-2004, 12:15 PM
and no, they dont tell the truth. In Michael Moores new movie, he walks up to a congressman and asks him to sign his kid up for the army, it shows the guy just stare at him flaberghasted. In reality, the person said how can he help and when MM asked him to pass out the fliers, the guy said sure and that he had two nephews in Iraq. go to moorewatch.com for some other lies of his.

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
and no, they dont tell the truth. In Michael Moores new movie, he walks up to a congressman and asks him to sign his kid up for the army, it shows the guy just stare at him flaberghasted. In reality, the person said how can he help and when MM asked him to pass out the fliers, the guy said sure and that he had two nephews in Iraq. go to moorewatch.com for some other lies of his. I was talking about the article I linked to

yaebginn
07-15-2004, 12:27 PM
right, it was written by democrats. Not just regular democrats, by fanatics who hate all republicans and hope Ronald Reagans burns in Hell. Those people are evil and I dont trust a word they say.

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by yaebginn
right, it was written by democrats. Not just regular democrats, by fanatics who hate all republicans and hope Ronald Reagans burns in Hell. Those people are evil and I dont trust a word they say. Then you're ignorant by choice

B1GC
07-15-2004, 01:00 PM
tfighterpilot, i really don't understand you. You continue to change your position on the situation. You are from Israel and you have pointed out earlier that you do not appreciate suicide bombers and your are against the terrosit that continue to hit your nation. Us Americans support your cause and are talking about how we disapprove of their ways as well and we have even gone over to support your casue. why do you continue to say what we are saying is wrong and to talk trash about America when we support Israel? Pick a side, don't jump back and forth.

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by B1GC
tfighterpilot, i really don't understand you. You continue to change your position on the situation. You are from Israel and you have pointed out earlier that you do not appreciate suicide bombers and your are against the terrosit that continue to hit your nation. Us Americans support your cause and are talking about how we disapprove of their ways as well and we have even gone over to support your casue. why do you continue to say what we are saying is wrong and to talk trash about America when we support Israel? Pick a side, don't jump back and forth. Let me clear it out to you. I am for defending yourself, and against killing innocents.

B1GC
07-15-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by tFighterPilot
Let me clear it out to you. I am for defending yourself, and against killing innocents.


OK so basically you don't like suicide bombers killing inocent people...but then you don't like retaliation to kill inocent people.

But from as far as i have seen the suicide bombers are innocent people until they do the deed...so where does it stop?

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by B1GC
OK so basically you don't like suicide bombers killing inocent people...but then you don't like retaliation to kill inocent people.

But from as far as i have seen the suicide bombers are innocent people until they do the deed...so where does it stop? So you're saying that it's ok to kill them because they're potential terrorist? Why not arresting all the poor people because they're potential thieves :rolleyes:

B1GC
07-15-2004, 01:55 PM
or just destroy the government for not providing enough for the poor :rolleyes:

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by B1GC
or just destroy the government for not providing enough for the poor :rolleyes: That would work...

Gabez
07-15-2004, 02:08 PM
I give up with you, yaebginn. I make a point and you completely ignore what I'm saying, post some bull****, so I explain what I mean again, and then you just post some more bull****.

"And I never agreed to either the former or the later, I've agreeed with none of those." - then what DO you agree with, because there are only two choices. >:

Trying to have a philisophical debate on this thread is pointless...

Also: just because I'm unafraid to challenge my reglion doesn't mean I can't be a theist. It's better than blindly following what I've been brought up with, anyway. I mean anyone who just goes "Oh the Hollocaust? Oh, well, God is love! I don't know about that and I don't care because I'm a sheep blindly following whatever I interpret the Bible to say! God is love! GOD IS LOVE! OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY" is quite obviously less of a Christian and more of a maniac.

Ray Jones
07-15-2004, 03:01 PM
i think i'm really with gabez here. i think he lives his religion the right way. if i were religious, i would do it the same way. what you do, yeabginn, i pretty much interpreting the meaning of religion wrong. it my not be your fault, but more that of your "environment". maybe you'll see that one day.

Gabez
07-15-2004, 03:26 PM
Thanks!

Honestly, if you Christian fundamentalists actually read the posts before replying with Bible quotes like Ray and Doomgiver, then maybe your points would make some sort of sense.

Just some more points I picked out:

"God wouldnt say that, becase it contradicts his word." - and of course the Bible NEVER condradicts itself ever...

"santa has been proved impossible time and time again, God hasnt." - time for a quick lesson on proof. Basically, nothing can be proved apart from maybe maths, because it is analytic - everthing else is synthetic. So in terms of proof, God and Santa Claus are the same; you can never prove that Santa doesn't exist. Think about it. "Oh, but we've been to the North-pole" - he's invisible. "But you can't fly around the world in one night to all the children!" - he uses some sort of high-tech Alien gadgetry. Simmiliarly, with God, you can say "oh but I've never seen Him do anything" - God doesn't want you to KNOW He exists, because otherwise we'd have no free will and be "forced" to follow him. The point is, both cases can neither be proved or disproved, really. "But I've been to heaven!" - you were hallucinating. etc. etc.

"I've said before, sex was made to increase the population, not pleseure, ruling out the need for tht kind of protection" - right, so you're all for the world becoming even more over-populated. If a teenage student girl asked you for advice because she was gang raped and can't support a child, you'd suggest that she keep the baby even though the foetus is only a few days old. Right. What are you trying to do here - do what's right, or do what you think the Bible says? (But actually doesn't good samaritan story etc. says help others whatever of pre-set "rules")

tFighterPilot
07-15-2004, 03:45 PM
and of course the Bible NEVER condradicts itself ever...
When there's a contradiction in the bible it means that two people wrote about the same things from different points of view. Each knew something different.

Gabez
07-15-2004, 04:05 PM
Very well, so in that case the Bible really shouldn't be taken word for word - we should look at the common ground the interpretations sharem (such as love your neighbour - even if he is gay) and not go around stoning homosexuals because of what could be a mistranslation, a misunderstanding of simply someone's opinion. Remember that the divine law is not the same as the eternal law (see Aquinas).

Lyrnx
07-16-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Gabez
Very well, so in that case the Bible really shouldn't be taken word for word - we should look at the common ground the interpretations sharem (such as love your neighbour - even if he is gay) and not go around stoning homosexuals because of what could be a mistranslation, a misunderstanding of simply someone's opinion. Remember that the divine law is not the same as the eternal law (see Aquinas).


You obviously don't read the Bible your self do you?:dozey:



Lyrnx
(Has left his mark)

Ray Jones
07-16-2004, 04:46 PM
wow. this thread has sloowwwed down incredibly.



however.. i think gabez has read the bible. but that's not the point.. the point is, if i seek answers and walk blind, how do i find the questions?

also some of you ran out of "prepared" answers, that's why this "discussion" stopped so abruptly.

--

so will there be a successor for the us? maybe not. people have to learn that it is not about the best country anymore. we're on to enter a new age. ..
spaceage!! (mwaha.)
..
the trend will be like what we see in the eu, nations will join together and finally grow together. and one day there will be only one "nation" on earth. if mankind isnt going to die, then we will spread in space. the question then will be "who is going to be the successor of earth?"

of course, this will not happen tomorrow. :dozey: stupid humans.

yaebginn
07-16-2004, 06:53 PM
I have answers, its just ever1 keeps going on about the same thing and its getting boring. its also really time consuming.

ET Warrior
07-16-2004, 09:22 PM
But all of YOUR answers are the same. There is no other argument that you can make, your entire argument is based on a 3000 year old book.

Lyrnx
07-16-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
But all of YOUR answers are the same. There is no other argument that you can make, your entire argument is based on a 3000 year old book.

Technically, it's older...

But yes I base my answers on this "book".



BTW: Gabez if you claim to be a "jesus lover" and don't act like it then you are no more then a cowardly HIPOCRIT!

Lyrnx
(has left his mark...)

tFighterPilot
07-17-2004, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by yaebginn
I have answers, its just ever1 keeps going on about the same thing and its getting boring. its also really time consuming. *kicks yaeb to the ground*

DON'T SAY EVER1

Happy?

Ray Jones
07-17-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
But yes I base my answers on this "book".


yes, you base your answers on this old book, but you use any other (relative) new(est) technology you can get a hold of? strange.

what does "your book" say about the internet? honestly. i want an "biblic" answer to this.
i wanna know what the bible says about flying around the earth or even up to the moon and walking on it. what does it say about mars probes.. i wanna know what answers that book has concerning "year 2004" questions.

ET Warrior
07-17-2004, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
Technically, it's older...

And you don't think that things change in 3000+ years? Times change, societies change, PEOPLE change.

Doomie
07-17-2004, 06:05 AM
Sorry i didn't post in a while. You see, normally i'm online pretty much the whole damn day, but i've acquired GTA: vice city recently so i've had a little les sitme for this...

Anyway, can someone really tell me what you're all talking about since my last visit?

Gabez
07-17-2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
BTW: Gabez if you claim to be a "jesus lover" and don't act like it then you are no more then a cowardly HIPOCRIT! Firstly, you do not have to blindly follow the Bible, hate gays, try to persudae everyone that what you think is right etc. to "love" Jesus. I believe there is a God, though I don't know exactly what He is like. I also believe in Jesus, and "love" him because of the good things he said (the things that haven't been warped by people like you). Secondly, it's a joke, I'm making fun of you.

And:
If you hate gays because the Bible says you should, then if the Bible told you to fly a plane into a building, would you do it? I see a very thin line between you and the 9/11 Terrorists.

Doomgiver: not much since you last posted, I'm afraid. :~

Doomie
07-17-2004, 08:08 AM
I noticed...

Lyrnx
07-17-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Gabez
Firstly, you do not have to blindly follow the Bible, hate gays, try to persudae everyone that what you think is right etc. to "love" Jesus. I believe there is a God, though I don't know exactly what He is like. I also believe in Jesus, and "love" him because of the good things he said (the things that haven't been warped by people like you). Secondly, it's a joke, I'm making fun of you.

And:
If you hate gays because the Bible says you should, then if the Bible told you to fly a plane into a building, would you do it? I see a very thin line between you and the 9/11 Terrorists.

Doomgiver: not much since you last posted, I'm afraid. :~

I don't hate gays, only their lifestyles.

"Love the sinner, hate the Sin"

Making fun of me and every other Christian is one BIG mistake you made. On the day of Judgement every single little detail (even the ones you think are hidden) will be unveiled...


Lyrnx
(has left his mark)

Doomie
07-17-2004, 01:56 PM
Ow c'mon. Jesus is a very kind and loving man, and if he comes back to judge over us, he will take everyone to heaven that doesn't say stuff like: 'You're total crap!' against him. I'm sure that if it were to happen it wouldn't be as (Waht's that word again?) as you say it.

Ray Jones
07-17-2004, 01:58 PM
would you dare to answer my question only once?? please?

ET Warrior
07-17-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Lyrnx
"Love the sinner, hate the Sin"

Read the first post on this page (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131867)

Mort-Hog
07-17-2004, 05:59 PM
http://morto.dyndns.org/threadmap.gif

Ray Jones
07-17-2004, 06:07 PM
aahaha. very good. indeed.


but you forgot "hell". damnit how am i supposed to find it if i will go there? XP

tFighterPilot
07-17-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
http://morto.dyndns.org/threadmap.jpg Well someone had a little too much time on his hands :D

yaebginn
07-17-2004, 06:45 PM
lol, thats funny. good job.

Doomie
07-18-2004, 07:33 AM
Doesn't work on my pc... But anyway, ET is right.

Et maes a great point, as he so frequently does.




Even more frequently he's just a sarcastic lil' s.o.b.

Mort-Hog
07-18-2004, 01:01 PM
http://www.funnyjunk.com/p/euro_vs_america-jpg.html