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Puzzlebox
07-28-2004, 04:21 AM
I read your ideas on the next game Vostock, I just wanted to outline some of the problems I had with it. This is just first thoughts, I'll go more in depth later.

The unique powers, when Empire Earth did it with the military and economic heroes it was truly stupid, same with Rise of Nations and it's civilizations. In the case of the latter it was the hoky way they in which they presented it. The way they did it is just a bad idea. I'm not wholly opposed to implementing something like that but you need to get rid of the military/political classifacations, same with the powers with the modeled after the quotes i.e. "Power of the Dark Side" these things look really nice in a features box but suck when applied, what's more is these abilities that affect units across the map shouldn't be available via selecting the individual unit; thats a big mistake.

There are alot of problems with having recruitable heroes in a game like this, considerer the time frame, it would certainly be stupid if two players had the same hero from two different time periods and even more so if it was the exact same hero. Let's say for an RM or DM or whatever freelance multiplayer game you want to think of there are a number of options, the host player may opt to allow recruitable heroes in general or he may not, he should have the option to limit the selection to predefined lists that make certain none can conflict, but not every civilization would be able choose from all their heroes anyway, perhaps the player could select from a group of recruitable heroes or have the host put it at random or random within the defined lists...

The key here is options, anyway, for non-campaign or specialty games the host should have the ability to allow players to choose an overseer or commander which probably should be a playable unit, the abilities he/she/it would grant would not depend upon the unit itself i.e. if you placed the unit in the scenario editor it would not grant you any bonuses. The bonuses would be applied because the player selected that commander in the menu before the game, however if the unit dies they should lose any bonuses granted by it. Maybe you could put stipulations on keeping it inside the base or fortress to for the bonuses to be active or this or that but that may be a bad move even though it seems like a good idea----or eliminate the worry entirely by--making it optional.

Ex.
Faction|Rebel Alliance|
Commander|Lando Calrissian|
Bonus: All economic buildings cost 20% Less and are constructed 20% faster than normal. Gas extraction rate is increased by 50% and all gas extraction upgrades are free.

The resources are another problem, three is a novel concept and probably will be an attractive idea to developers who want to do something simplistic and novel so they can slap it on the features next to a bunch of annoying repetetive bullets. However I think the best way to configure the resources is to have a number of primary and secondary resources, spice for instance, could be collected/mined/extracted whatever and sold for credits or bartered for some other resource-- ex. American Conquest, or you could trade with local factions so your not paying to ship it off-world(figuratively), but the local faction will of course have a far more limited amount of resources to trade both in volume and selection. Secondary resources open up an enormous amount of options, say spice improves your worker gather rate by 10% or a special alloy that reduces the cost of your buildings. The resource stuff has some kinks in it but I will work it out later.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Puzzlebox
07-29-2004, 04:31 AM
Not to shoot holes in the gas thing, but it really should be fuel.

Primary Resources
-Food
-Metal
-Carbon
-Fuel
-Credits

Gas may be extracted though, it will add to feul, some gases like Tibanna will add more than others, Ex. a standard unupgraded gas mine will yield 15 fuel a minute, if it is a Tibanna gas well in the same circumstance it will yield 25.

Admiral Vostok
07-29-2004, 11:01 AM
First off, welcome to the forum, Puzzlebox.

I haven't reviewed my outline for a while, but I'll address the points you've made.

"The Unique Powers"
If by unique powers you mean the "Advanced Tactics", then I should tell you I've gone off that idea now. Were I to revise my outline now they would be wholly scrapped.

If however you're referring to Heroes and their abilities, let me justify why I think Heroes deserve a place in a Star Wars game. Heroes are undoubtedly one of if not the most important aspect of the Star Wars movies. To not include heroes and heroic deeds in a Star Wars game is to not be faithful to the movies. You'll notice that I've designed the Hero Powers so they aren't like those in WarCraft 3. Instead of having a range of powers that you can't remember what each one does until you click it, the heroes usually have one power that is always in effect, like an aura around the Hero, and one power that is activatable. Simplifying the powers down like this helps them fit better into an RTS game. The exception is of course the Jedi and Sith Heroes - I made their powers more micro-intensive because I felt they should in effect be one-man armies, who are mostly used on thier own like they are in the movies rather than as part of an army (the Republic Jedi being the exception since you can build them en masse).

"Recruitable Heroes"
Continuing on the Hero theme, I'll point out to you what I was continually pointing out to the fanboys making Imperial Assault: this is a case where fun wins out over realism. While it might seem strange that two players can have the same heroes, it is no more strange than having the ability to have the same factions fight each other, for example Empire vs Empire. Also keep in mind RM games will allow such weird combinations as Empire vs Republic.

What it comes down to is that it is more StarWarsy to include Heroes than not to include them, but it is also more fun to allow them in RM games the same way it is more fun to allow Empire vs Republic.

Resources
I've effectively got what you're suggesting - resources like Spice, Plasma, Water, etc are mined, but instead of having to manually trade them which would be horribly annoying, they are instantly converted to Credits upon their return to a Resource Point.

As for Secondary Resources, that's an idea straight out of Rise of Nations which I'm not a fan of. While there are plenty of StarWarsy resources, there are not enough to make a decent amount of secondary resources without making it silly like Rise of Nations did.

Your fuel idea isn't bad, I'll take it under consideration for when and if I update my idea. Also, there are reasons I got rid of Food and Carbon, and five resources are way too many.

Puzzlebox
07-29-2004, 04:27 PM
I took the secondary resource idea from civilization and american conquest--sorta american conquest. I should probably give you my readme or someone else so they can post it in a couple of web pages, I hate that free **** though, popups...

Heroes--I wouldn't play the game if it didn't have heroes in it, what I meant was in RM and multiplayer games. Buy yeah they should have an enormous selection of heroes (in the editor at least) and placeables from the movies. They need to expand the editor significantly.

The secondary resources would be

Nova-Can just be mined for credits and not made into anything special.

Cortosis-Can either be mined for more metal at a faster rate or instead be an object-like a Cortosis Bar.

Focusing Crystals-Can and should be made into an object-Focusing Crystal.

Spice-Could just be collected for credits, which would fit into how I have the other resources collected.

I didn't put much thought into the resources before but it's shaping nicely. Five is not toomany though, those five are very realistic and it wouldn't hinder gameplay.

Darth Windu
07-30-2004, 03:11 AM
Puzzlebox - Hi and welcome to the forums. Getting to the subject, I agree with Vostok in that 5 resources is too many. I have two in my template, which are Metal and Credits (mined as Nova, or Water on Tatooine, Spice on Naboo etc) which can be found in my signature, and the reason for this is to get away from the Economic micro-management in games like SWGB where you have to juggle 4 resources, so that more time can be spent on building military forces and fighting, much like the C&C series.

Puzzlebox
07-30-2004, 07:01 PM
I think two would hurt the game, badly. But if you get down to it the point generally is to build an army as quickly as possible and go kill things with it, predominantly your enemies, or maybe your allies if they just wiped out most of your enemies and have nobody guarding their bases, hmm. Back to what I was saying if you look at it that way then yes it's just a stupid death fest but you can't just cut it down to two resources.

I'm sure everybody dislikes micromanagement, for good reasons, it takes away from the game and is a real bitch when it does so late in the game, but this doesn't have to be a problem, even with five resources, not that credits really count in the same manner as the other ones, the taxes thing resolves most of that problem and gives you both a reason to develop a current base and to expand. As to some of the more annoying micromanagement like scouting, the solution to this is easy and I don't think I need to type it.

Vostock the heroes powers thing I don't think work because if you give them to a few of them then you have to give it to all of them and it just gets messy. Universal powers like force push or melee heroe specific attacks that work automatically like some sort of power attack or for sith a rage or fury attack that doubled their attack and attack rate would be good. erg I'm getting all over the place.

Jedi and sith sit down and meditate to regain health and force points. It goes apprentice-padawan-knight-master. Sort of a a latent level up, say a kill requirement maybe and meditation points as well, they will gain twice as much or so when meditating with a master nearby. Masters do not need to meditate to regenerate h/f pts and maybe knights get a slower regeneration of both and padawans a slower regeneration of one or so thats minutia which I don't want to get into because I hate typing this much.

As to late game micromanagement my intention to curb this would involve a bank or racially equatible building for credits which just simply means they build it and it generates an additional stream of credits. Food, carbon and metal can be synthesized #note there is a bunch of material that I would need to put behind this so lets just say you can need some of another resource for each and you can't do all three without running negative in one.

As to fuel, if they want their mechs and airships to run and buildings to be powered they will be fighting tooth and nail over deposits. Trust me, late game nuisances can be mopped with a solid interface and smart features. For instance changing some of the annoying drop'n method of collection for certain resources into a garrisoned building type situation. I was gonna do a web page thing but like I said I hate that free **** so I'll stick it a pdf in a nice tag format.

Admiral Vostok
07-30-2004, 09:25 PM
I don't think two resources would hurt the game as much as five resources would. Let's look at the resources of the three most successful RTS games of recent times:
WarCraft 3 - 2 resources
C&C Generals - 1 resource
Age of Mythology - 3 resources

Personally I think 3 resources is nice. Credits, Metal and Gas are the most realistic, looking at the movies.

As for my heroes, I don't see how two virtually passive heroes and one Jedi hero is going to get messy, especially with the simple powers I've given them.

Puzzlebox
07-30-2004, 10:17 PM
What I mean is with your heroes if you give those units those powers it would be stupid not to give the other heroes i.e. the ones in the scenario editor powers as well, you certainly can't have unique powers for all of them and it wouldn't be smart to just have the inequity of not giving them all powers and if the misc. ones share the same power or powers as the few you are talking about.

I think that there should be a number of force powers for the Sith and a number for the Jedi. If plausible the same system of these eh "extras" could be used for a couple of the other units as well and if so any hero melee units.

I get why your stuck on gas now-the whole purist thing, I suppose I am too, a purist that is, can't stand that repeater trooper garbage etc... but as for the gas it really is better as fuel, you can get fuel by collecting gas but it will make the game more diverse and improve the rm by having resources done like this. What I want to stress as well is the classifacation thing with the political and military heroes, that really isn't a purist thing, I know you'll retort with a good counter point to that but all that handling the heroes with the military political thing will do is make the game more rigid. Ex. Emperor Palpatine, if you have a rigid set of powers or abilities for said classifacations he would get political abilities like eh whatever attributions you would define, but not the military ability, as well he's a Sith so he would get those powers too. You could of course just not care about that and stick him in the editor along with the rest of them but then your not considering everything you should.

Resources :(
Your killing me with all this typing
I'll get to it for the edit.

*Edit*
5 resources available through different means will make the game (warning:overused) incredibly rich and diverse and add to replayable significantly, if someone doesn't want to manage their resources they can hand some or all of the management over to a the ai, their own player ai, a governor or whatever you want to call it. Again it must be noted that options are key here as well, you can't screw up then.

Darth Windu
07-30-2004, 11:38 PM
Well in terms of fuel, the Gas idea isnt bad (it was originally my idea) but i still dont see how it can work being in the air. Having Gas in the ground, which doesnt contradict the films, would be best.

Puzzlebox
07-31-2004, 12:50 AM
The gas is a good idea, but it should be fuel and there should be other types of fuel (that is to say there should be other things in the game like gas that contribute to fuel), I thought about the gas being the sky problem before but didn't get anywhere, if there is a cloud ground terrain that obviously hurts realism but thats very minute, for the ground it would be steaming gas wells or a variety of different graphics but back to the air, there would have to some floating platform maybe but that really isn't in the air. I don't know, maybe some foggyness and different lighting around the platform.

FroZticles
07-31-2004, 06:08 AM
Warcraft 3 is not really comparable to what we even want. Micro Management is huge and you only have to worry about your economy the first 5 mins into the game and if you want to expand later on.

I do not think gas/fuel will have enough uses in the game to be a whole resource just for aircraft?

General Nitro
07-31-2004, 10:31 AM
Wouldn't all the buildings need gas to operate? Also, gas can be taken from the air from certain planets like Bespin. Of course, planets can only be used in conquer the glaxy or something like Windu's idea for planets.

Admiral Vostok
07-31-2004, 12:07 PM
Heroes: The Heroes in the toybox of the scenario will only get the generic powers, not any unique ones. Heroes from the toybox don't need unique powers because they aren't used enough and don't require balancing with the other Heroes. If you want some "realism" justification, the Heroes available in RM are the important ones, while those only available in the toybox are not, so have less powers.

Basically I'm only concerned with RM. Toybox doesn't need to be balanced, and doesn't need much more than art and a voice-over.

Gas: I'm sticking to Gas, because whereas Fuel can only realistically be used in the production of vehicles, Gas can be justified as contributing to the Fuel in the vehicles but also being coolant for Troopers' blasters. So not only is Gas more realistic from a Purist point of view, but it can be used in the construction of more things.

Emperor Palpatine: Not sure what your point is there, but Palpatine isn't buildable in RM so he doesn't matter. For the purposes of the toybox he can have the same powers as Vader.

Puzzlebox
07-31-2004, 03:50 PM
Frosty, my intention for fuel is that it would power all of your machines, mechs air craft, naval vessels (if there are any) and your buildings (or maybe the power generators that would supply them but that may be bad and a bit confusing). I don't want you to think I mean the slow crawl situation that came when cossacks etc... did this, that was just a different type of game.

Vostock, I think the toybox is very important to the game and if you are designing a game that should not be stuck in the backround, I do see your point however in as much that it would be plausible to just give the ones in the editor bland non-specific powers, not that I agree. I wouldn't give the heroes meant for RM seperate powers at all, I would give the Sith Jedi units the same powers no matter if they are heroes or not and any special attacks certain ranged units might have would be the same for ranged non Jedi/Sith Heroes.

hmm, force lightning would go in, so maybe Fetts get their flame throwers finally :) some mechs would use the same fire attack and perhaps some creatures so it would be justified to stick it in, not that they would be the only units getting it.

-----------------
Resources
Your killing me with all this typing
I'll get to it for the edit.

*Edit*
5 resources available through different means will make the game (warningverused) incredibly rich and diverse and adds to replayability significantly, if someone doesn't want to manage their resources they can hand some or all of the management over to a the ai, their own player ai, a governor or whatever you want to call it. Again it must be noted that options are key here as well, you can't screw up then, and you can kiss 90% of any remaining micromanagement good bye.

Keep in mind thats with an all ready brilliant interface and smart features, so you can have your frag fest and your death matches... and your build up and fight realists, and with the other options you can even have your build up and not fight lunatics-But they will like it too because as I said, lots of diversity etc... and most importantly, broader customer base and more money.

General Nitro
07-31-2004, 04:40 PM
Not that it matters a whole lot, but you keep spelling Vostok wrong.

Puzzlebox
07-31-2004, 04:42 PM
Nirto, I have no idea what your talking about.

Admiral Vostok
07-31-2004, 04:53 PM
He means that I don't have a "c" in my name.

Puzzlebox, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say about the Heroes, but my stance is this:
1. Toybox heroes do not need special powers and do not need to be balanced with the rest of the game. They are secondary in every way to multiplayer playability. As such, the best they'll get is put into one of the Classifications of Hero (Military/Political/Jedi/Sith) and have access to the Generic Powers of that class.
2. Heroes in RM are extremely important if you want to faithfully capture the feel of the movies. The powers as I have them require as little micro-management as possible while still not letting the character fade into being insignificant. Variety is key, so in addition to the Generic Powers of each class, buildable RM Heroes get their Unique Powers.
3. You seem confused over the way Jedi work in my game. The Republic is the only faction that can build Jedi; but a single Jedi or Sith Hero is available to each faction as well. The Republic basic Jedi have very simplified powers to avoid micromanagement in game, while the Jedi and Sith Heroes have slightly more involved powers as I want them to be used in one-man-army type situations.


Now, as for resources, five will make the game rich and diverse, it will bog the game down with resource trading and extra management. Three is plenty.

Puzzlebox
07-31-2004, 06:45 PM
I know what he meant, I was quipping.

1.There shouldn't be military and political powers, the units shouldn't be classified like that in any way that affects the game in a manner a rule would, if you just want to call them that then that is fine, it works better, if you want to find characters that mirror those supposed stats then thats fine too. But don't make any character unrealistic by molding them to the game and don't give a military bonus of scare units in given area through targeting as in a military hero or an increase production in area by targeting power to a political hero.

2.They are important, I agree, but it will take more than that to faithfully capture the feel of the movies, what your saying about heroes doesn't affect micromanagement one way or the other. The character has his or her own significance and do not need their own unique powers, they didn't have those unique powers in the movies, you are making powers out of quotes that sometimes relate to something that the character did in the movies, that's completely unneccessary. I agree about variety being important and hold that there are plenty of other ways to add variety to the game.

3.I read your ideas accurately, I think a small number of specific Jedi and Sith powers should be included though, not just one universal set. As for micromanagement, a slow force regeneration bar and automatic scripts for the units to use will handle that, not that there would be much anyway. One man army type situations are easily handled by increasing a number of their stats, to site an example we'll take Darth Maul, he would have a substantially higher amount of hit points and increased force points as well as having a faster rate of attack and maybe a few other increases such as faster regeneration, my point is the characters make themselves significant, especially if you are a fan of the movies, pushing it further is unwarranted.

Resources-My varying a.i. control idea handles any problem frag fest and death match lovers who sometimes play rm settings would have with five resources, for middle of the road gamers it varies with how much they like doing, but as I said the varying a.i. will solve any problems that they might have, not to say there would be any. as for the rest, nobody is going to get bogged down, they can buy and sell four resources and credits they get from developing*, the same developing* they undergo in the natural course of the game, they can earn more if they are fortunate enough to find spice or nova but mostly it will be from taxes.

Puzzlebox
07-31-2004, 06:52 PM
Irreguardless you should add Sith to the Empire, Palpatine has a bunch in episode III.

General Nitro
07-31-2004, 06:57 PM
"Only two there are. No more. No less"

Puzzlebox
07-31-2004, 08:34 PM
Sam Jackson said that if he could pick how he was going to die in the third episode he would want to be killed by someone who was better than him, like Darth Vader or a group of dark jedi just not by a stray blaster bolt or an explosion, why would he say that, odd I think, I doubt Samuel L is a fan past the normal movies so he either picked it up from some shooting or he just heard of dark jedi and said that, I wager he slipped.

Darth Windu
08-01-2004, 10:20 AM
In terms of Jedi/Sith and Heroes in single-player, the way I got around this was to give only the Republic the ability to produce Jedi (for obvious reasons) but also give each faction a General which are-
Confederacy = General Grievous
Empire = Darth Vader
Republic = Obi-Wan Kenobi
Rebellion = Luke Skywalker
Naboo (Bonus Civ) = Padme Amidala

Now, apart from Amidala, all of the heroes are Jedi or Jedi-like, and due to their status they are incredibly strong and difficult to kill. This way, although only the Republic has Jedi, they can be balanced overall while still allowing the Heroes which wont affect MP games.

General Nitro
08-01-2004, 11:12 AM
Windu & Vostok - I like both your templates and you've obviously put some work into it, but don't you think it's a bit complicated. Sure, it brings originality to each civ, but it als makes the game much more complex. Perhaps the game should include a generic mode (similiar to the one in place with the exception of a few tweaks) and a unique mode (much like the one you both have planned)?

Admiral Vostok
08-01-2004, 05:07 PM
Over complexity is one of the major things I was concerned with. That's why I have:
1. Classes of Hero, so they're easier to understand. Puzzlebox suggests scrapping the system, but doing so would make it more difficult to get a full understanding of Heroes. The most annoying thing for me about WarCraft 3 was every time I had a new hero, I had to figure out what their powers were, figure out and remember the shortcuts, and try not to get them all mixed up. Cutting down on the variety of abilities and generalising Heroes into classes doesn't give you as much customisation, but makes it a hell of a lot more playable.
2. Added the single unique power to each Hero to get some uniqueness, but without sacrificing the needed familiarity that totally unique powers will destroy. Sure, they never had the powers in the movie like Puzzlebox noted, but this is definitely a point added for fun rather than realism.
3. A set of Jedi and Sith abilities rather than totally unique ones as Puzzlebox wants. Again this relates to the above point; Jedi should work the same between factions so you don't have to relearn their abilities every time you change factions.

As for resources, Puzzlebox I am yet to see an RTS successfully have more than three resources while still managing to make them completely unique and not dumbing down the worker AI so much you don't have to think about resources. The last game I played with a whole heap of resources was Rise of Nations, which you seem to be a fan of Puzzlebox, but the resource management in that game was so dumbed down it didn't require any thinking at all... not what a STRATEGY game should be like.

General Nitro
08-01-2004, 06:16 PM
I wish the workers in SWGB had auto-thinking like the workers in RoN. Also, I wish the scout had an auto-scout option as well, but I guess that's just lazy.

Puzzlebox
08-01-2004, 08:56 PM
I didn't like Rise of Nations much at all actually, they some nice features but...

About the relearning thing vostock my intention is to have 4 universal powers that are gained by both Jedi and Sith, they will gain these as they progress-

Apprentice
Padawan
Knight
Master

An additional 8 powers are in the game, 4 go to the Jedi and 4 to the Sith, heroes or not. So it's
(cumulative)
Apprentice-2
Padawan-4
Knight-6
Master-8

Most of these would affect things that are easily manipulated like attack rate and such.

I'm a bit mixed up with what you said about mixing up heroes Vostock, I think I could make what I'm saying less complex by not typing so much.

A power is a special action. Lets say there are 25 special actions in the game. I do not define the action by a given hero.

The number of powers available to the Jedi class is 8, Yoda will therefor have 8 powers, he does not differ from a normal jedi master in this regard.

What makes him special is he is yoda, moves particularly fast when ordered to attack and is generally better stat wise than most units in the game.

Yittreas would recieve no special action. His accuracy would be significantly increased and his line of sight would be greater. If he broke from a battle every so often and raised his arm up and little red bubbles appeared over the heads of Imperial Troops I don't think it would increase realism, Yoda force pushing every so often would, I know you didn't suggest the EE approach but thats the manifestation of my reasons against doing something like that.

My system is less complicated than yours.

Admiral Vostok
08-01-2004, 10:41 PM
How is yours less complicated than mine? You've got 25 special abilities, and I have 16. Your guys get to pick and choose their abilities, mine just have them.

Or am I missing something?

And you're still spelling my name with a 'c'.

Puzzlebox
08-02-2004, 01:27 AM
I was using 25 as an example vistoc and it relates more to a game engine, as well 25 does not resemble my game.

My guys don't pick and choose either, A Jedi apprentice will have the universal force power of force push and a light side power, he doesn't get to pick. A Sith apprentice will get the universal force power of force push and a dark side power, he doesn't get to pick.

Each time the respective Jedi or Sith unit advances into their next their next level they will recieve one universal power and an additional power based on their alignment/whatever.

App. Pad. Knt. Mstr.

Light Light Light Light
J J J J

Universal Universal Universal Universal
JS JS JS JS

Dark Dark Dark Dark
S S S S
------------------------------------------------
My system is far less complicated because it is practical.

Heal-Needs no explanation.
Rage-Doubled attack and attack rate for a period of time.
Force Choke-Needs no explanation.
Force Lightning-Needs no explanation.

Your system involves four force powers and a bunch of these>

No Reward Is Worth This-When activated, all friendly units near Solo will earn a reward for each enemy they destroy. The reward earned is added to the Credit stockpile.

Leave That To Me-Target an enemy building or transport, and all garrisoned or transported units will be revealed. Buildings will also reveal any units they are training or upgrades they are performing. Alternatively, target a Power Supply to shut down the power. If the building is both a Power Supply and a production building, it will be powered down and the production queue revealed. Kenobi is not revealed when performing this ability.

We Make A Great Team-No matter where they are on the map, both Luke Skywalker and Han Solo will gain full Hit Points and their special abilities will be instantly recharged when this power is activated. Skywalker or Solo will not be effected if they are engaged in combat.

Clumsy-When activated, all enemy units near Jar Jar will take a random amount of damage as he stumbles around accidentally unloading or dropping boomas.

This is what giving units unique powers like that accomplishes.

-Real time strategy game set in the Star Wars universe.

-Play as one of four seperate factions and command over 300 units including the feared AT-AT or the agile X-Wing attack fighter.

-Recruit legendary heroes with unique powers and abilities to help you conquer your foes.

-Create your own epic adventures with the included scenario editor and play them online with your friends.

-Official content from Star Wars Episode III: Sebubla Strikes Back.

It sounds good V it just isn't.

Darth Windu
08-02-2004, 01:29 AM
See now I find that just way too complex. In terms of my template, Jedi advanced from Padawan, to Veteran Padawan, to Knight, to Veteran Knight. Along the way they recieve various bonus' like greater speed, armour, firepower, and abilities such as 'force push' but these are generic. For the Heroes, their bonus' cannot be upgraded, so there is no problem there. The trick here is to make the Jedi capable of being part of an army without needing too much micro-management.

Puzzlebox
08-02-2004, 01:36 AM
It is too complex, that is much more than most people would like to remember, especially when first starting to play a game, some of those powers as well would hardly ever be used, if ever.

As for the micromanagement the powers I included will be handled easily by a decent behavior script, as well the computer will use be able to utilize all of them rather than some.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 11:47 AM
So Pesslebackz, does your idea use any Heroes apart from Jedi and Sith? Or are Jedi and Sith not really "Heroes" either, in that you can build several of them?

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 12:25 PM
I think a few more craft from the movies should be in vostok's idea and to that end the link here has data about one craft the seperatists should have the Nantex Class Fighter from the films.

I suppose it's fortunate i kept my webspace operational

http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo1.jpg

http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo1a.jpg

http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo2.jpg

http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo2a.jpg

sorry about the zoom making it that close i don't know why it does that.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 01:14 PM
Your links don't work, though I am very interested to see what you're referring to since I already have every unit from the movies in my design.

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 01:51 PM
Perhaps This Should Work instead?


http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/Images.htm

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 06:42 PM
Yeah that works. I'd forgotten why I'd taken the Geonosians out, then I remembered their actually one of the minor factions now.

Look here:
http://vostok.150m.com/New/MinorFactions.html#Geonosians

Keep in mind though my design needs to be fixed up, it's in a bit of a state of disrepair at the moment.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
So Pesslebackz, does your idea use any Heroes apart from Jedi and Sith? Or are Jedi and Sith not really "Heroes" either, in that you can build several of them?


:) I know what a trap looks like.:deathii:

Yes vokstic my game does use heroes apart from Jedi and Sith ones.

I don't see what you are getting at when you ask if Jedi and Sith are not really "heroes", you can build several Jedi and Sith yes, and no they are not heroes, they are Jedi and Sith who recieve Jedi and Sith powers.

Heroes are units that served some important role in Star Wars and warrant seperate graphic sequences and stats than normal units. Darth Vader is an example of a hero, he would get his own sound bytes, icon, graphic sequences, and stats in as much that they are individually considered based upon his character from Star Wars.

Our example is a Sith, this means he gets the abilities a Sith gets, he carries his own significance by being. If Darth Vader could blow fire from his ass I would be all for implementing it, but I don't remember that being in the movies, I'm sure its in the expanded universe we're both purists.

It is infinitely better for the overall game not to give the RM heroes powers individual to the specific unit. If you go the EE route and give a few streamline powers for a class of hero then there is no hope. Doing so wastes the developers time by adding features that will scarcely be used no matter how good they are in namesake, it also makes scenario design much more difficult and eliminates possibilities by making certain things impossible and overcomplicating things that would normally be simple.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 04:53 AM
No offence vostok but i think you've now got too many minor factions the geonosains were better in the confederacy i liked your plan better with them in.

Pezzy Believe me nothing in any game is "not used"

Vostok I can give you milions of pages of data if you needed it for your plan. It would be a pleasure since your plan is the best and will remain the best despite pezzy's claims. So we should use it as a base for a unifid forum game plan instead of everyone coming up with one and none of them being that good.

Pezzy if you think you can make a game by all means do let us know when the beta's ready and we'll be expecting screenshots by the end of the year with comprehensive coverage and of course the right to point and laugh when you give up.

FroZticles
08-03-2004, 07:19 AM
Viceroy, Vostok would not like fact files since most of the stuff that is taken from EU.

Puzzticles if you don't give heroes some form of superiority then there really is no point for them in RM.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 08:11 AM
They are superior frozentits, the same way they were superior in the movies. Its not warranted to invent more ways to make superior out of thin air when they all ready are.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 09:54 AM
Viceroy: As Frozticles said, while the vehicles themselves are not EU, much of the "datafiles" on them are. In particular I find the info on the Geonosian Fighters to be lacking; looking at AotC, the Geonosian Fighters clearly have some sort of flak ability in the lasers. Not only is the purple colouring of their lasers indicating they are in some way different to standard red and green lasers, but the way the lasers burst into black clouds without hitting anything demonstrates this too. For some reason, all the datafiles I've read make no mention of these flak-lasers, though they are obviously there.

Also, I don't think I have too many minor civs at all. As Windu pointed out in another thread, the Geonosians only fought alongside the Confederacy because it was their planet that was being invaded, so the Geonosians should not really be made a part of the Confederacy civ. I sincerely doubt we'll see any Geonosian Fighters in the opening space battle of Episode III. Besides, since I combined the Trade Federation and the Confederacy into one civ, they've got more than enough units as it is; they don't need any more in the form of Geonosians.

PezDispenser: So how many powers will your rank-and-file Jedi have access to? I've only given my Padawans one power and my Knights one power, both of which are cast automatically at an interval like special abilities in Age of Mythology.

However, the individual Jedi/Sith Masters (Vader, Skywalker, Kenobi, Dooku, Jinn) have two generic powers each (so their familiar to players instantly) and one unique power. Having to learn a single unique power is not too taxing, so the disadvantage are minimal, yet this single bit of uniqueness helps add variety between the civs so they aren't totally alike. Dooku fights differently to Vader in the movies; I want to reflect this in the game.

The same analogy goes for the other heroes; their most important power is generic, and their secondary power is unique to make them appear different to their counterparts in other civs.

I will not make all their powers generic as you're suggesting. Doing so will make them less unique and more like boring generic civs of the kind we see in games like RoN and EE. Since the important powers are aura abilities, which you don't have to cast, people will certainly use them, because if they didn't they don't gain the benefits that their enemy will probably be getting from their Heroes. When it comes down to it, the Unique abilities may not be used all that much, but their primary purpose is to provide uniqueness amongst the Heroes.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 10:32 AM
"When it comes down to it, the Unique abilities may not be used all that much, but their primary purpose is to provide uniqueness amongst the Heroes."

Well mine would be, Vader throwing his lightsaber at Luke or Palpatine Electricuting a group of rebel troopers is a lot more fun than "Leave that to Me" or "Clumsy" and it actually reflects Star Wars.

"I will not make all their powers generic as you're suggesting. Doing so will make them less unique and more like boring generic civs of the kind we see in games like RoN and EE."

None of the factions will be boring because they all have seperate art work and units.

To the overall point about powers lets look at human behavior, we as human beings learn better when we are more interested in something, you said your powers may not be used all that much, if the powers you intend to include remotely resemble the ones noted then they certainly would not be used all that much at all and would be a waste of time to implement. The Jedi/Sith/Universal powers I have included is twelve
4J 4U 4S

Jedi get the 4 for light side and the 4 universal powers, Sith get the 4 for the dark side and the 4 universal. Players will enjoy playing around with the powers and will pick them up quickly.

---Question for you people---

If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is not realistic to Star Wars or 8 force powers that are?

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 10:48 AM
None of the factions will be boring because they all have seperate art work and units.You mean like how none of the RoN factions were boring because they all had separate artwork and units? :rolleyes:

That's way too many powers for the Jedi and Sith. That many powers will turn the game into a hero-fest like WarCraft3, particularly if you're suggesting rank-and-file Jedi and Sith will get these powers.

I challenge you to list 12 powers that we see from the movies.

If you think my unique powers aren't the best representations of the characters from the movies, I'm open to suggestion for replacements. But the unique abilities are staying so the Heroes are still interesting between civs.

---Question for you people---

If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is realistic enough and quick to use or 8 force powers that will require concentration that will make the rest of your army suffer?

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 11:01 AM
All seperate artwork and all seperate units.

Three words, unit behavior scripts.

You know that there were not 12 used in the movies and you wish to capitalize on this, they are realistic to Star Wars.

?
I wasn't trying to get you to change anything I'm arguing your logic.

The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Puzzlebox
You know that there were not 12 used in the movies and you wish to capitalize on this, they are realistic to Star Wars.Not sure how it can be realistic to Star Wars if it wasn't in the movies. I thought you were a Purist like me?The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.Ah good, so you agree my way is better when taken in the context of the army as a whole rather than using the individual Hero like you would in WC3.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 11:24 AM
I thought jedi were going to be used as a surgical strike weapon like commandos.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 11:33 AM
Lets just diagram one of the powers that wasn't in the movies,

Rage-This is a dark side power, it affects attack and attack rate by increasing them and drops defense significantly.

This makes perfect sense and sees wide use via the Sith.

The answer to your second question is most definitely not, the question you asked made it quite clear that the rest of my army was going to suffer because I had to concentrate too much on the 8 force powers.

Ask a less biased question and you will get a more objectively sound answer.

Scenario:Vader and a massive army in a large battle, well Vader can take care of himself but those missile troopers are going to shoot down my ties that are on the way... 2, or 8.

As for computer use, Unit Behavior Scripts, as for player use powers won't be able to cast that many and a lot of them are stat effects which remain for a period of time.

*Edit*

He probablyly meant about scare units power which would be used at a distance, that withstanding I wouldn't use Vader anywhere near where it could get him killed nor would most players. As well 8 would add to the strategy a player employs when using the hero, more so than one unique power would, the 8 are they themselves specific because of what they do and the situation they affect i.e. blaster deflection, defense, speed etc... There is no question which system is better.

"WarCraft III where heroes can take on entire armies"

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 11:38 AM
Actually rage is a star wars power from the movies Luke gave in to his anger and used his rage and attacked vader and sliced his had off remeber?

For purists you really don't know the movies that well do you?

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:52 AM
I never said Rage wasn't a justifiable power. Now all we need is 11 more justifiable powers. As a Truth Bearer you should know Purism doesn't mean extreme knowledge of the movies. A Star Wars Scholar has extreme knowledge of the movies. I just happen to be both a Star Wars Purist and a Star Wars Scholar.

Puzzlebox, what bias? The game is going to involve both individual Heroes and large scale battles, as such my scenario is a typical one and not biased in any way.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 11:56 AM
That doesn't count

Force Choke
Force Lightning
Throw Saber
Force Speed
Mind Trick
etc...

You can't say that that rage had anything to do with a force power.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Of course it has to do with a Force power. Why are the Emperor and Vader always telling Luke to give in to his hate?

And Throw Saber is not a Force Power. I have no Force Powers but I could throw a lightsaber.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 01:22 PM
"Of course it has to do with a Force power. Why are the Emperor and Vader always telling Luke to give in to his hate?"

I don't consider rage to be a power in used in the movies. Either way we both agree it doesn't conflict with Star Wars.

"And Throw Saber is not a Force Power. I have no Force Powers but I could throw a lightsaber."

uhuh, tell me, how exactly would it be getting back into your hand.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Puzzlebox
uhuh, tell me, how exactly would it be getting back into your hand. Throwing a lightsaber in itself is not a Force Power. The Jedi or Sith uses telekinesis to guide the saber through the air and bring it back to their hand. So Telekinesis is a Force Power (which includes Force Push, Force Pull, lifting things like rocks, X-Wings, protocol droids, etc), but "Throw Saber" is not a Force Power.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 01:35 PM
Nice try

Throw Saber is a force power in the game, in Star Wars it would involve using the force to guide the saber back into the Sith/Jedi's hand.

In the game it expends force points when done it is therefor a force power. I did not mean and obviously so that throw saber was in the movies or in the Star Wars universe a power unto itself as force lightning is.

I would bet you just made a slight oversight and I nailed you. :atat::lightning

"Puzzlebox, what bias? The game is going to involve both individual Heroes and large scale battles, as such my scenario is a typical one and not biased in any way."

Your question was clearly biased and I bet if you asked anyone here they would agree with me.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 02:46 PM
Okay I suppose from a gameplay point of view, Throw Saber is an ability the Jedi/Sith can use.

I maintain my question wasn't biased. How are you expecting the game to be played if you think my example of using both Vader and a huge army at the same time is biased?

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 03:50 PM
You wouldn't need the force to get a lightsabre to come back just a handheald magnets you know they had pretty strong magnets from how they rescued artoo from the dune sea.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 09:22 PM
Vostocs comment was that he didn't have force powers but he could throw a saber.

Either the point escaped you DK or you were engaging in a little self serving intellectualism. I hold that it was the latter and as such don't mind, or so you might expect. :)

Here Vostoc

Here was my Question-
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is not realistic to Star Wars or power or 8 force powers that are?"

Here is an unbiased version of my Question-
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique or power or 8 force powers?"

Your Question-
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is realistic enough and quick to use or 8 force powers that will require concentration that will make the rest of your army suffer?"

Unbiased Version
"If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power or 8 force powers.

Your original question was biased because you formed it in a manner that automatically made one scenario more optimal than the other and unduly so, you alleged that mine would require a significant amount of concentration and thus would not be able to be utilized quickly, irreguardless you may just be intending to use heroes as armies after all and not surgically, if that is so it is a really stupid move, in my game Vader would not last long at all against an army.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:02 PM
Oh, I see, in that sense yes it is biased. I thought you were meaning the situation I had described (namely using Vader alongside an army) was biased.

I understand now. So is your answer to the unbiased version of my question still what is was before? Namely:The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 11:15 PM
No my answer then would be no.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:24 PM
So you'd prefer to micro-manage your Force Powers at the same time as organising your army? Especially if you have multiple Jedi, each with eight powers, I just don't see how this is possible.

I guess what I'm trying to determine is how exactly are you intending Jedi to be used in your game? If they're meant as a force in their own right, that don't need the co-operation of the rest of the army, then giving them a 8 Force Powers borders on manageable. Of course to do this their survivability would have to be pretty much the same as WarCraft3's Heroes, which I wanted to avoid because the game is so focused on the Heroes and leaves the rest of the units in the background.

But if you're expected to use both Jedi and an Army at the same time in a combined offensive, much like the existing SWGB, I just don't see how it can work.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 11:43 PM
"So you'd prefer to micro-manage your Force Powers at the same time as organising your army? Especially if you have multiple Jedi, each with eight powers, I just don't see how this is possible."

Not particularly, by default they will use their powers on their own, when and which powers would be used will be dealt with via unit behavior scripts.

In the case of heroes I would enjoy micromanaging the force powers, if I didn't have the luxury of focusing on the unit I would just set it back to default stance/lets not get this much into minutia via buttons etc...

I intend them to be used as surgical units, for example if an opposing player is expanding and has just started building up another base near a resource they can rush in and hack everything to pieces and be gone before the opposing players heavy units arrive.

Or if another player is moving a group of units to a fight, the Jedi/Sith could deal with them before they got to the battle.

A little thought will get you other possibilities I won't mention. Force points will exhaust fast and there shouldn't be more than twenty Jedi or Sith employed by a player an average game, and thats stretching it.

"But if you're expected to use both Jedi and an Army at the same time in a combined offensive, much like the existing SWGB, I just don't see how it can work."

I keep referring to unit behavior scripts, you know when a trooper starts shooting and you didn't tell him too.

Having a Jedi or Sith use his powers freely with be handled like a stance, by default they do this, but you can turn that off and play around with them if you so choose.

FroZticles
08-04-2004, 01:13 AM
Pussle Box- Seems like an easy way out to just hand the role over to the computer to deal out the powers. If your Jedi have that much power I'm sure there micro would be enormous with people using hot keys to dispense all 8 powers in a matter of 5 seconds.

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 01:43 AM
?? what are you talking about
no no no

Jedi Padawan

Hit Points-120
Attack-15
Defense-4
Armor-0
Evade(Not Shown)-10%
Shield Hit Points(Not Shown;because it doesn't have one)-0
Deflect(Not Shown)-50%
Speed(Not Shown)-Can't
Bound Speed(Not Shown)-Can't
Attack Rate(Not Shown)-1.9 Secs
Rate of Fire(Not Shown because it isn't a ranged unit)-0.0 secs
Accuracy(Not Shown)-0%
Garrison Capacity-(Not Shown because it doesn't have one)-0
Range(Not Shown because it isn't a ranged unit)-0
Area Effect(Not Shown)-0
Force Points-50
Special Action Points(Not Shown because it doesn't have any)-0
Meditation points-56
Jedi Knight-44
-------------------------
Force Push-30
Force Speed-40
X-40
X-35

Regeneration Time Hit Points(Not Shown)-1=15 secs
Regeneration Time Force Points(Not Shown)-1=25 secs

While Meditating-Hit Points(Not Shown)-1=8 secs
While Meditating-Force Points(Not Shown)-1=10 secs
Meditation Point Rate(Not Shown)-1=12 secs
----------------------------------------------------------------
*Lets clear this up*

Behavior Scripts. ex. health is below 30 and unit has more than 40 force points, it will use heal.

Remember unarmed units running in SWGB...

Average game will have round 15 Jedi or Sith per player provided the given player wants them.
Stance A-Unit will use force powers only when necessary.
Stance B-Unit will use force powers at will against enemies.
Stance C-Unit will use defensive force powers at will.
Stance D-Unit will not use force powers.

If you select ten Jedi you will see both these stances and the powers, if you want them to stupidly or not so stupidly use all of their powers on one target then you can do so, if you want them all to use Discipline so their defenses are better before a battle, do so.

If in said situation you want them to attack an army head on and wield their powers set them to aggressive and select stance B, then order them to the area.(In my game they are able to go to an area while attacking enemy units on the way, a sadly missing feature with the Age of Kings engine) Their unit scripts will have them attacking groups of units with force lightning(Sith) or mind trick and bounty hunters and such with force push or force choke as is the case for the Sith etc...

In about fifteen seconds you be upset with yourself for wasting all of your Jedi.

If you went with Stance A they would have healed themselves when their hit points were low enough and recovered enough health to last another ten or twenty seconds, however if you wanted them to go in and destroy the group of repeaters you could use force speed and try to run in and nail them and retreat before you lose them all.

They are surgical units first and foremost, but when deployed with an army they can easily make the difference.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 05:37 AM
I can tell you precisely whu because Lasers are included in a different section Under Technology and DeAgonstini Is notoriusly unreliable and i have yet to receive a new issue for 5 months despite the fact that they owe me a credit

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 06:02 AM
Are you feeling well?

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 06:05 AM
Just angry AT those SWINDLERS DeAgonstini

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 06:07 AM
You're insane.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 06:08 AM
Now Now Now pezzy you wouldn't want to get yourself in trouble now would you.

I thought that much was clear based on who my avatar was




THE GREAT Joruus C'Baoth Jedi Master Supreme

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 06:12 AM
I thought your avatar was one of those see what you want pictures, I saw an aquatic looking thing with an odd gun.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 06:14 AM
Now i wonder where oh where is that ignore list pannel there's a certain bantha cleaner i don't want to hear any more. Blasphemous infidel