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Darth Groovy
07-31-2004, 08:02 AM
You know, I started sort of a rant in this thread (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1585146#post1585146) about Star Wars games in general, and I felt this would be a thread worthy discussion about the material that exists in Star Wars games, and a good place for some positive/negative feedback.

Basically I wanted to clearify, that I don't HATE the current SW titles already on the market, but I wanted to point out that what I feel really SELLS Star Wars games is the relationship between elements of the movies and the action that follows. Honeslty, the best parts of Dark Forces, were running around and fragging Stormtroopers, and interacting with characters and creatures that appeared in the original films such as Boba Fett, and Jabba The Hutt. I'm not saying the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series had "bad" story elements, but in the end, what made the games fun was being in that Star Wars universe and feeling like your in one of the movies.

First SW game I really ENJOYED was Super Star Wars for SNES (http://www.gamespot.com/snes/action/superstarwars/index.html?q=Super+Star+Wars) . The first time I ran the trench battle at the end of the game, I truly felt like Luke, and after several failures I literally closed my eyes before fireing the torpedoes into the mine shaft, and finally won the game. I was so exited, I literally had a beer party that night in celebration! Friends of mine were so HOOKED on that game. Now granted, it WAS a side scroller, that involved ALOT of TEDIOUS platform jumping, but all in all, for the time, the game was seriously fun, and did the best they could to capture the exitement and pace of the original movies.

Lets face it, alot of the games currently out there are basically clones of games that have already been released. (and some were done alot better to a certain degree.

Jedi Outcast/ Jedi Academy is Quake III with lightsabers.

Galactic Battlegrounds is Age Of Kings II with Star Wars elements.

Star Wars Battlefront is going to be 1942 with Star Wars Elements.

Starfighter/Jedi Starfighter/Rouge Squadron is well.....a flight sim! Flight sims have been around for almost 2 decades!

Even Republic Commando is going to be a FPS based on Unreal technology.

Star Wars Galaxies is basically Everquest, and (arguably) contains Star Wars Elements.

This may get me into some trouble with any wandering member of LucasArts, but I personally feel that there are WAY TOO many titles based on characters from Episodes 1, and 2, and let's face it, not too many of them were too popular amongst serious gamers.

What we want and need is a game that is actually based on the Originally Trilogy, that uses actual characters from The Original Trilogy that utilizes something other than technology that is already been done in other games. Something that has smoothe graphics, and has the same nostalgic feel of the Super NES Star Wars games, without having it be a side scrolling platform jumper. Have characters do what they do in the movies! Don't have Darth Vader fly out from over a cliff and shoot you full of lightning bolts!

I'm not a game designer, but I just know that the Star Wars game I been looking for, has never been released. The best parts of the games that were out there, I only enjoyed, because for a split second or so, I felt like I was in one of the original films.

Even my favorite part of Jedi Outcast, was NOT the SP game, but on MP, where I downloaded maps and models that were based on the movies, and tried to re-create those scenes!

Am I alone on this idea, or is the need and want for a new game based on the original movies long over due?

I open this for discussion, and again, this is not to trash LucasArts, or any of the games being released, it's just an area for some much needed feedback on all the games in general.

Astrotoy7
07-31-2004, 08:16 AM
Grooveh, you obviously dont have a GC and have never played Rogue Leader and Rebel Strike ! Lots of cool goosebumpy geeky SW moments playin those games, my faves :

*Rogue Leader : the Death Star Attack looks and sounds amazing, as does the attack on the second Death Star :D

*Rebel Strike : Speeder bikes, especially the 2p race :D

for something a bit more complex, you'll prolly have to wait for Battlefront......

mtfbwya

Mex
07-31-2004, 08:20 AM
Some day, I really hope Lucasarts buys some decent game designers. Thats when we'll get truely good games.

Darth Groovy
07-31-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Grooveh, you obviously dont have a GC and have never played Rogue Leader and Rebel Strike ! Lots of cool goosebumpy geeky SW moments playin those games, my faves :

*Rogue Leader : the Death Star Attack looks and sounds amazing, as does the attack on the second Death Star :D

*Rebel Strike : Speeder bikes, especially the 2p race :D

for something a bit more complex, you'll prolly have to wait for Battlefront......

mtfbwya

Actually I HAVE played Rogue Leader. I don't have a GC, no, but I DID know somebody that had one, and went out and bought that game when it was released. And your right, the Death Star Attack is SUPERB on that game. Point I am getting at though, is that all the SW games are all ports of a collective whole. Why not just take all these minute elements in current games, combine them, and call it Star Wars?! :eek:

Kind of off the subject, but I remember I was at a local Wal-Mart once and saw a stand up arcade game called "Star Wars Trilogy". At the time, I had no change on me, and when I went back to play it, the game had dissapeared from the lobby. Basically I saw parts of an FPS saber battle between Luke and Vader set on the set of ROTJ's final duel sequence. The graphics were quite similar too Jedi Outcast/Academy. That seemed really interesting to me, but I never got to play it. :(

Point is, THIS is what i'm getting at. We need a Star Wars game, based on Star Wars, featuring all the important action elements of Star Wars, and all of the actual characters in the movies.

txa1265
07-31-2004, 09:30 AM
I guess I'm in disagreement with you on something key - that these games are 'clones'.

Is KotOR a NWN clone with lightsabers? I don't think so. It is a fantastic RPG.

I don't believe that sharing an engine makes a game a 'clone'. Otherwise you'd have to say:
Half Life = Soldier of Fortune = Heretic II = Anachronox == > Quake II clones

Call of Duty = Jedi Academy = Elite Force II = Soldier of Fortune II = MoHAA = JKII = RtCW = Elite Force => All Quake III clones

Dues Ex et al are all just Unreal clones

and so on.

Which is rubbish.

LucasArts puts out many games with the Star Wars license. They span the spectrum of genres, game systems, and ... quality. Some are truly bad, many mediocre, some good, and several are truly great. I would argue (without much opposition, methinks) that Dark Forces and Jedi Knight are amongst the truly great games of all time, yet they could be described as 'clones' - DF is clearly a Doom clone, and JK is just another FPS but with some saber & force action. Likewise, KotOR is a great RPG, but breaks little ground and is actually a step backwards from many RPG's in terms of interaction, exploration and dialogue ... it is the story and combat that are truly superb.

I'm not sure that there is a 'new genre' out there, but there are many twists that can be made to existing genres. Look at Thief 3, Far Cry and Painkiller this year for very different views of the 'FPS' genre. Republic Commando brings ideas from many sources and twists the FPS / Team elements in a new way for a FPS.

Mike

txa1265
07-31-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Point is, THIS is what i'm getting at. We need a Star Wars game, based on Star Wars, featuring all the important action elements of Star Wars, and all of the actual characters in the movies. You mean like The Phantom Menace? Oh wait, that game was crap / mediocre (allow for differing views). Or something that offers it all, like Shadows of the Empire? Oh wait, besides not having enough Star Wars characters, *that* was mediocre ...

I know what you're saying, though. A game in which there is saber action, blaster action, force powers, space battles of small and large scale, search and rescue, vehicle pusuits, swimming with Gungans (ok, maybe not that ;) ) and so on. And *with* the main characters, as opposed to just the locales.

That's a pretty tall order ... typically movie-chaser games are lousy, and very restrictive ... and we know that Lucas is mega-restrictive in licensing even compared to other franchises. I wonder what the Episode III game will bring to the table.

Mike

ckcsaber
07-31-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Kind of off the subject, but I remember I was at a local Wal-Mart once and saw a stand up arcade game called "Star Wars Trilogy". At the time, I had no change on me, and when I went back to play it, the game had dissapeared from the lobby. Basically I saw parts of an FPS saber battle between Luke and Vader set on the set of ROTJ's final duel sequence. The graphics were quite similar too Jedi Outcast/Academy. That seemed really interesting to me, but I never got to play it. :(


Yeah, that is a great arcade game, even though it's a dollar to play a single game. It had you doing lots of things throughout the trilogy, like piloting x-wings, dueling Vader and fighting Fett, and being apart of the Endor in in RotJ. I even remember the OLD arcade game where you were in an x-wing ALL the time, and had to destroy a certain amount of tie's in order to advance. You got to blow up both death-stars and Vader's super star destroyer.

:sigh: So much fun....



I agree with you Groovy. I haven't really "enjoyed" a star wars game for a while now. My first love was Tie Fighter, which I will always hold a place for in my heart. Any of the X-Wing series is gold, and imo the best Star Wars based games EVAR.

I was not satisfied with any of the Rogue Squadron games. I hate playing Hoth over and over and over. And I didn't really enjoy playing a simpler version of X-Wing Alliance. I prefer to have complete control of my ship.

Dark Forces was ok. I enjoyed it for a little bit, but grew tired of it quickly. DF 2 Jedi Knight was my only life for about a year. I played that game so much, it wasn't even funny. It was just the IDEA of even being a Jedi that captivated me. Even though dueling was a grueling experience, I loved that game so much.

Jedi Outcast and Academy just didn't cut it for me. I know it was uber Jedi Knight, but I just didn't feel right with me. I got tired of it FAST.

Then came KotoR. Now that was a well done SW game. I really enjoyed it, but I only played through it twice, one light and one dark. After that, I didn't feel the need to play it, since I had seen EVERYTHING. KoToR 2 is Lucasarts future.

I played Galactic Battle Grounds for about 2 days, and then never used the cd's again.

Galaxies looks like an crap fest, so I'm not even sticking my head into that sh*thole.

I really hope this episode 3 game is good. The enhanced saber fighting sounds great, but I just hope its not a farce.

Alegis
07-31-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
*Rebel Strike : Speeder bikes, especially the 2p race :D

I was jumping from joy when i had the ACE/Ultimate award in that level, i knew i HAD to have it. Got 3 ace awards

(fyi; you got 3 medals (gold etc) if you meet some requirements. Ace is if you scored better than the best betatester/lucasarts dude or something like that)

I like the sw games now and those coming out...i dont compare em to UT and such

Monkey Mania
07-31-2004, 11:15 AM
A Phantom Menace-like game is the only thing I can think about. Isn't the EpIII game going to be like that?

Pad
07-31-2004, 11:22 AM
* Copies from his RC forum post *

Originally posted by adillon
hmmm, it sounds like you need/want something along the lines of the current slew of lord of the rings games. you can actually recreate scenes from the movies by playing as one of the actual characters, not some made-up-for-a-game hero/heroine that nobody's heard of before.


And that was I think the succes of those LOTR series games. The ability the recreate actual film segments and BE part of it. If you are a fan of LOTR you most likely would have bought it, but those not so much into the series that saw the movies could be part of it all with these games, and so they did.

Now on the starwars gaming I have two points. First of all, games a bit more based on the actual movies would be a great advantage. Why do you think after a game is released a Padme, Anakin,... skin is created by users?
When I was young I always wanted to be part of those movies and after buying some games I was a bit unhappy as there were no actual characters.

As my second point, I think we´ve seen quite enough SW games lately based upon various game segments. Kinda going with the popular flow to please the crowd. In fact, almost every kind of game has been converted in some kind of SW game. My point is that I think the market is a bit "milked". So I dont know IF there is another way to follow. Sure you can adjust old games and make em popular, but in the end the feeling "I´ve seen it all before" will conquer.

jebbers
07-31-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Kind of off the subject, but I remember I was at a local Wal-Mart once and saw a stand up arcade game called "Star Wars Trilogy". At the time, I had no change on me, and when I went back to play it, the game had dissapeared from the lobby. Basically I saw parts of an FPS saber battle between Luke and Vader set on the set of ROTJ's final duel sequence.


ive played it and its ok but really easy to beat....ive beaten it about 5 times at three different places...but the really fun parts are when you fight Boba Fett with Luke's green saber or fight Darth Vader...other than that the game levels on Hoth, Endor, and the Death Star are easy peasy....

LightNinja
07-31-2004, 03:09 PM
man SWG like EQ? SWG is a sucky game without argument, if not try the trial; i have that SNES game too and i never succes lvl 3 lol, and what you want? all the game types are invented so all the new SW games will be like other games

ET Warrior
07-31-2004, 03:33 PM
For me, all Lucasarts needs to do to make me happy is remake the Xwing vs. Tie Fighter series. Then I could die happy :)

edlib
07-31-2004, 11:43 PM
Yes,.. where the hell is "Tie Fighter 2", gol-durnit?!??

BCanr2d2
08-01-2004, 12:42 AM
Understand that LucasArts/LucasFilms are trying to do everything based around the newer movies, and alternate times in SW, and not the original trilogy.....

All the interviews just before TPM hit the screens was about how they wouldn't be doing any new OT games until the new movies had come out.....

Darth Groovy
08-01-2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by txa1265
I guess I'm in disagreement with you on something key - that these games are 'clones'.

Is KotOR a NWN clone with lightsabers? I don't think so. It is a fantastic RPG.

I don't believe that sharing an engine makes a game a 'clone'. Otherwise you'd have to say:
Half Life = Soldier of Fortune = Heretic II = Anachronox == > Quake II clones

Call of Duty = Jedi Academy = Elite Force II = Soldier of Fortune II = MoHAA = JKII = RtCW = Elite Force => All Quake III clones

Dues Ex et al are all just Unreal clones

and so on.

Which is rubbish.

LucasArts puts out many games with the Star Wars license. They span the spectrum of genres, game systems, and ... quality. Some are truly bad, many mediocre, some good, and several are truly great. I would argue (without much opposition, methinks) that Dark Forces and Jedi Knight are amongst the truly great games of all time, yet they could be described as 'clones' - DF is clearly a Doom clone, and JK is just another FPS but with some saber & force action. Likewise, KotOR is a great RPG, but breaks little ground and is actually a step backwards from many RPG's in terms of interaction, exploration and dialogue ... it is the story and combat that are truly superb.

I'm not sure that there is a 'new genre' out there, but there are many twists that can be made to existing genres. Look at Thief 3, Far Cry and Painkiller this year for very different views of the 'FPS' genre. Republic Commando brings ideas from many sources and twists the FPS / Team elements in a new way for a FPS.

Mike

You brought up a good point. I WILL acknowlege that KOTOR is the first truly ground breaking Star Wars game to come out in a LONG, LONG time, which is why I did not bring it up in my topic. The SW franchise will most likely surpas the films, but a "re-visit" to the original Trilogy is long over due, and it is time somebody did it right!

And you brought up another good point, all games really do add and subtract ideas from other games. I also agree with you that Dark Forces, and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight were probably some of the best SW games ever made.