PDA

View Full Version : Expanded Universe & GB2


Puzzlebox
08-01-2004, 12:50 AM
I don't know about the rest of you but I tend to think almost all of the Expaned Universe content is a bunch of worthless garbage. I really wouldn't mind being accepting of it if it was well written however it just isn't.

1.Shadows of the Empire and a a little bit of it's content.
2.Kotor and a good portion of it's content.
3.Yep short list eh.

What EU stuff do you find acceptable and which is the stupidest. What of that should go into the next game(disregard any licence problems)?

Puzzlebox
08-01-2004, 12:56 AM
http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/yuuzhanvong/eu.html

I rest my case.


http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/tsavonglah/eu.html

oh do I rest my case.

That would be my example of the worst and the poster child for Lucas' fetish with royalties.

FroZticles
08-01-2004, 03:37 AM
I agree with you but I don't mind EU it is very interesting and how other people outline the past and future events in the galaxy.

I doubt they will add much EU into the game except maybe some toybox units for the scenario players.

swphreak
08-01-2004, 10:13 AM
heh

That's just your opinion, which does not mean much to me anyways ;)

Darth Windu
08-01-2004, 10:24 AM
Well Puzzlebox, some EU is bad, but some is pretty good. Some of the worst rubbish from EU is the 'New Jedi Order'. I mean, come on, Yoda tells us that the force permeates everything, yet in the NJO books a planet strips a species of the force - which of course is more beneficial than punishment. I should also point out that there is a lack of creativity on behalf of the EU, for example the Yuuzhan Vong are almost exactly the same as the Yevetha from the 'Black Fleet Crisis'.

Having said that, there are also some very good books. Some of these are the 'X-wing' series, the Tim Zahn books (although i dislike the concept of the anti-force thingys), 'I, Jedi', 'Darksaber' and others of course.

General Nitro
08-01-2004, 11:09 AM
Add Prince Xixor as a toybox unit. The EU doesn't really offer that much, but it is interesting nonetheless. The only other units I can think of that are worthy of being added are Mara Jade, Durge, and the Yuuzhan Vong. I mean take a look at this list: http://www.starwars.com/databank/appearance/ep0.html . It is pretty lacking.

DK_Viceroy
08-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Finally some intelligent debate now i have an excuse to bother to think about writing in this forum especially since I am in midscheme {My Animation Project } It appears puzzlebox has much in common with me Namely a Tendancy to argue with a venegance with windu and vostok {neither of them are bad guys but it's funny anyway } however the EU issue can be put aside but it appears that windu knows more about EU than he wishes to be known since there is about as much in common between a yeevethan and a yuuzhan vong than there is between a napalm bomb and a toothpick

Admiral Vostok
08-01-2004, 05:16 PM
Sounds to me like you are a Purist, Puzzlebox. Welcome to my cult.

In my opinion EU is the single worst thing to happen to the Star Wars Universe. Sure the prequels have a lot of critics, but if anyone thinks Episode I and II have ruined the classic films they obviously have read any EU.

It's fine if you like that sort of thing. But you cannot deny that the EU is completely different for the most part from the movies. They are not set in the same Universe: there is the Universe of the Movies; and then there is the Expanded Universe, which although it shares some parts it is for the most part a completely separate one.

George Lucas created a wonderful Universe. Few if any EU authors could ever measure up to anything he's created.

Windu lists some "good" EU. I admit, although I am the Lord of Purists, I did enjoy the X-Wing novels - they're the only Star Wars books I've read more than once. However, despite their good stories they just aren't proper Star Wars. The Zahn novels are also well written, though even less Star-Warsy. Others I would not recommend to anyone... especially not Darksaber, who's presence on Windu's list is very intriguing... Kevin J Anderson is one of the worst authors I've ever had the displeasure of reading, and although I haven't read Darksaber, I've heard it is infinitely worse than the Jedi Academy Trilogy, which I hold in high regard as the novels that opened my eyes to how crap the majority of EU really is.

General Nitro
08-01-2004, 06:14 PM
Not all EU is bad. Shadows of the Empire was pretty good.

swphreak
08-01-2004, 07:24 PM
DK is right about the Yev and Vong. If anything, the Vong are Borg rip-offs.

And I prefer the EU than the prequels, but the OT rules them all.

And no matter what we say, we will never agree. You all may think the EU is crap, I think it's awesome. Nothing you say will change that ;)

swphreak
08-01-2004, 07:27 PM
DK is right about the Yev and Vong. If anything, the Vong are Borg rip-offs.

And I prefer the EU than the prequels, but the OT rules them all.

And no matter what we say, we will never agree. You all may think the EU is crap, I think it's awesome. It kept my interest in Sar Wars, and without it, I don't think I would be the Star Wars freak I am. It's gonna be the EU that keeps Star Wars alive after Georgie is done with the movies.

Puzzlebox
08-01-2004, 09:41 PM
SWP there isn't much to argue about, the EU overwhelmingly is not Star Wars, if you are going for namesake then okay, but all the namesake is is lucas making money because he let the person do whatever they want with his story while he takes a piece of the pie.

Most of these people are silly enthusiasts that can't write. The example I sited with the yu...no, is a prime one, whatever that is it has absolutely nothing to do with Star Wars other than the fact someone gave lucas some money so they could write that in a book and sell it, at which point lucas gets some more money.

The theme follows very subtle rules which most writers simply don't get and therefor cannot reproduce.

Admiral Vostok
08-01-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
It's gonna be the EU that keeps Star Wars alive after Georgie is done with the movies. This is the kind of thinking I resent the most. I can't beleve EUFans have so little faith in Star Wars... pretty much all EUFans are under the misguided belief that the only reason Star Wars is still popular is because the EU kept it alive.

Give me a break and take a reality check.

Star Wars has been endlessly referred to in all sorts of popular culture even before the prequels were released. My favourite examples come from The Simpsons and South Park. To cite all of them would take forever, but my favourite references are The Simpsons "I bent my Wookiee" and South Park's "Chewbacca Defense".

I'm willing to bet neither Matt Groening nor Trey Parker and Matt Stone are EUFans and to tell the truth I don't think they've read a page of EU in their lives. But I doubt even more that they under the illusion that the only people to get all their Star Wars jokes are EUFans.

I've said before, it's fine if you enjoy EU, but don't think Star Wars owes the EU anything, or that they could even both be part of the same Universe.

Sorry Phreak, you know I have nothing against you, but you also know EU debates really get me fired up, and when anyone tries to claim Star Wars is alive today because of EU I just lose it.

:mad: deep breaths... :) ah...

swphreak
08-02-2004, 12:58 AM
I guess I should clarify, EU keeps Star Wars alive for me. And the games too. The movies get old after so much rewatching. I watch them everyonce in a while, just this week I watched the OT.

I think most people hate the authors because those people have a "higher standard" for writing, but frankly, I hate english, literature, and that junk. As long as the book is entertaining, I'll read it.

I'm sure if I really didn't like debates (especially on forums since it lets people write extremely long posts which take forever to reply to), and weren't so lazy, I'd get all fired up and really give a damn, but I don't. Especially when I think debates should be settled with knife fights so if we're lucky, both sides kill each other and shut the hell up :p

Darth Windu
08-02-2004, 01:23 AM
Vostok - you really should read books before criticising them. Darksaber really is pretty good. Getting back to the point, I agree with Vostok that EU just doesnt fit with the films to make a single unified universe. For example

- EU: Dreadnoughts as part of Republic Military prior to Clone Wars
- Films: Republic Military created FOR Clone Wars

- EU: Boba Fett survived Sarlacc Pit
- Films (Lucas): Boba Fett died in Sarlacc Pit

- EU: Clones 'feel' funny to Luke Skywalker (Heir to the Empire)
- Films: All Stormtroopers are clones

- EU: Bevil Lemsip designed Death Star, oh wait, no, that Sienar guy designed the Death Star
- Films: Geonosians designed the Death Star

- EU: lots of big wars between the formation of the Republic and the Empire
- Films (prior to Clone Wars) "there hasnt been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic"

- EU: 'secret' Trade Federation Army
- Films: "...the Battle-Hardened Trade Federation Army" (wow, great secret that)

Must I go on?

Puzzlebox
08-02-2004, 01:51 AM
Lucas' plot easily wins out.

Boba Fett survives, fine, I like that better, but the writting has to match or come close to the qualities of lucas'

I doubt lucas had originally intended to have all the stormtroopers as clones and this may indeed change so that doesn't count towards anything.

It's better that the Geonosians did.

Again the writting, if it is written well and falls in line with the subtle rules and doesn't touch the movies fine.

Droids can't really be battle hardened; that was just an intended meaningless descriptive that might have got stuck in the mainstream.

FroZticles
08-02-2004, 05:22 AM
Lucas should not sell the brand name to outsiders and go and change the story once he starts making a film about it. If EU and the movies fit into a nice timeframe this thread would probably not even exist.

swphreak
08-02-2004, 11:37 AM
The stormtroopers may b e clones, but Jango must be pretty pissed off in his grave if the clones can't even hit the broad side of a barn :p

As for the Death Star. It can be that the Geonosians designed it, but Bevel improved it and built it.

LF/LL do a pretty good job with Continuity, and there is always a way to make the EU and the films' continuity work.

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 11:57 AM
Windu what you said in itslef certain elements are conflicting.

Full Scale war define full scale war for us windu.

Proove that all stormtroopers are clones if they were all clones then they'd be used as crewers and everything but they are in very short supply mosty of the time and are only in force on important projects or areas.

Noone ever said Rath Sienar designed the death star your obviusly part of some club that creates flase stuff since no book purports Rath Sienar's participation in the death star. and by the way it's Lemelisk.

There's actually some controversy about lemelisk some people say he found the designs somepeople say he stole them and loads of other theories.

Battle hardened in comparison to the naboo forces and also the fact that the droids were originally used to fight pirates.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 12:04 PM
you really should read books before criticising them. Darksaber really is pretty good.Maybe you're right, still with a plot synopsis like "The Hutts decide to build a Death Star" my Purist sense is tingling. Plus every other one of Kevin J Anderson's books I've read would have been put to better use as toilet paper.I doubt lucas had originally intended to have all the stormtroopers as clones and this may indeed change so that doesn't count towards anything.Actually there are many instances in the classic trilogy to suggest the Stormtroopers are clones, and the subject was debated long before the release of the prequels. Prime examples are the fact that all Stormtroopers seem to have the same voice, and the fact that Leia comments Luke is "a little short for a Stormtrooper."Droids can't really be battle hardenedSure they can. Droids can learn and gain experience the same way humans can. Look at Artoo and Threepio and how they develop throughout the course of the movies.The stormtroopers may b e clones, but Jango must be pretty pissed off in his grave if the clones can't even hit the broad side of a barnThe Stormtroopers aren't necessarily still clones of Jango. After his death, it's entirely possible they hired a new source for the clones. Either that or they used one of the clones as a clone... and we all know clones of clones degrade in quality...LF/LL do a pretty good job with Continuity, and there is always a way to make the EU and the films' continuity work.Lucasfilm and whatever LL stands for are separate entities, and although both owned by Lucas, Lucasfilm is the only one that directly benefits from his presence. If you really believe that "there is always a way to make the EU and the films' continuity work", address all the points Windu brought up.

swphreak
08-02-2004, 12:34 PM
LL=LucasLicensing, which I believe does the books.

That's just it, there is continuity.

- EU: Dreadnoughts as part of Republic Military prior to Clone Wars
- Films: Republic Military created FOR Clone Wars

Well, how did the republic deal with pirates and the such? Perhaps they were part of security forces. If you speak of the Katana dreadnaughts, I think those were created during the clone wars. I can't remember off the top of my head (been reading too many Clancy books :p ).

- EU: Boba Fett survived Sarlacc Pit
- Films (Lucas): Boba Fett died in Sarlacc Pit

In the EU, he escapes. It may not be real in Georgie's eyes, but it's continuity for me and the other countless EU fans.

- EU: Clones 'feel' funny to Luke Skywalker (Heir to the Empire)
- Films: All Stormtroopers are clones

I still will never believe all stormtroopers are clones. There's no Kamino in the OT, and there is no mention of his new cloning location. And what about the Imperial Academy? Why would you need one if you had clones?

- EU: Bevil Lemsip designed Death Star, oh wait, no, that Sienar guy designed the Death Star
- Films: Geonosians designed the Death Star

That can still work. The Geonosians designed it, and Bevel maybe stole the idea, or improved it. I remember the DS Prototype was pretty bad.

- EU: lots of big wars between the formation of the Republic and the Empire
- Films (prior to Clone Wars) "there hasnt been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic"

What does that have to do with anything? There are battles between the Empire and New Republic. Which takes place after the Old Republic.

- EU: 'secret' Trade Federation Army
- Films: "...the Battle-Hardened Trade Federation Army" (wow, great secret that)

I don't think it was much of a secret to begin with. Like DK said, they were first built to protect cargo. Perhaps the guy meant that little security army.

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 12:49 PM
Thank You SWP as always you speak the truth and one of the proud {misguided} few who will not accept the truth. if anyone needs proof i have a 180GB hard drive and 6 big fat folders overflowing with Official Star Wars Data, that i will gladly show as i have in the case of the Nantex fighter and I may perhaps for windu if he wants his gunship so bad give him a copy of the pages on the gunship.

General Nitro
08-02-2004, 12:59 PM
What proof? And also, I vaguely remember the gunship thread, but I would be in favor of it.

swphreak
08-02-2004, 01:04 PM
Misguided about what? Tha stormtroopers? pffft

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 01:27 PM
Well, how did the republic deal with pirates and the such? Perhaps they were part of security forces. If you speak of the Katana dreadnaughts, I think those were created during the clone wars. I can't remember off the top of my head (been reading too many Clancy books ).Piracy would be dealt with by the Trade Federation, not the Republic. That is one of the reasons the Federation has an army: to protect their trade routes. Other threats would be dealt with by the Jedi.In the EU, he escapes. It may not be real in Georgie's eyes, but it's continuity for me and the other countless EU fans.George is the creator of the Star Wars Universe. If it isn't correct in his eyes, how can it be considered correct at all? Admittedly this isn't a contradiction with the films, merely a contradiction with George Lucas' idea of the films.I still will never believe all stormtroopers are clones. There's no Kamino in the OT, and there is no mention of his new cloning location. And what about the Imperial Academy? Why would you need one if you had clones?I agree with your point on the Stormtroopers, and always have. Certainly not all of them are clones, since the Imperial Academy does exist, but for the most part their forces would be clones. I can imagine, since clones are for the most part superior to guys who have just been trained at the Academy, that clones are the best of the Stormtroopers. Yet I'm fairly sure it's been written in EU that cloning was outlawed or something, which is rediculous seeing that the bulk of the Empire's forces were clones.What does that have to do with anything? There are battles between the Empire and New Republic. Which takes place after the Old Republic.Windu refers to battles that took place between the start of the Republic and the end of the Republic. I can understand how you misinterpreted the semantics though... the battles aren't between the Republic and the Empire, they took place between the formation of the Republic and the formation of the Empire.I don't think it was much of a secret to begin with. Like DK said, they were first built to protect cargo. Perhaps the guy meant that little security army.All the EU refers to the Trade Federation's first major deployment as the Battle of Naboo. While Panaka's statement contradicts this, Qui-Gon's statement that "This is an odd play for the Federation" doesn't. It seems likely that battles in the past that the Federation Army were involved in were possibly against pirates and smugglers, and were well known, but this is the first time they have been used to invade a planet.

swphreak
08-02-2004, 01:45 PM
Piracy would be dealt with by the Trade Federation, not the Republic. That is one of the reasons the Federation has an army: to protect their trade routes. Other threats would be dealt with by the Jedi.

I meant the Republic. Jedi can handle other threats, but they can't fly though space. The Republic had to have had some sort of security fleet.

George is the creator of the Star Wars Universe. If it isn't correct in his eyes, how can it be considered correct at all? Admittedly this isn't a contradiction with the films, merely a contradiction with George Lucas' idea of the films.

He still can't come to my face and tell me I can't believe it because he doesn't.

Windu refers to battles that took place between the start of the Republic and the end of the Republic. I can understand how you misinterpreted the semantics though... the battles aren't between the Republic and the Empire, they took place between the formation of the Republic and the formation of the Empire.

Then I suppose he speaks of the Old Old Republic. With the Sith War, Mandalorian War, and such. I really don't know much about those wars, besides what I read in the Tales of the Jedi comic and KoToR.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Jedi can handle other threats, but they can't fly though space.Yes they can. Jedi Starfighters anyone?He still can't come to my face and tell me I can't believe it because he doesn't.No, but you can accept that Star Wars and EU are separate things that don't agree with each other.Then I suppose he speaks of the Old Old Republic.There is only one Republic. The Republic. ;)

swphreak
08-02-2004, 07:32 PM
Yes they can. Jedi Starfighters anyone?
I meant in the figurative sense ;)
The finished model of the Jedi starfighter was unveiled just a few weeks prior to the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Project Engineer Walex Blissex led the crack team of engineers that developed the Delta-7 Aethersprite starfighter at the Kuat Systems Engineering Facilities.
They didn't have the Jedi Starfighter til right before the Clone Wars. What did they use before then?

There is only one Republic. The Republic.
Yeah, but 4000 years, and several Wars difference.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 11:01 PM
If they didn't have the Jedi Starfighters before the Clone Wars (which is debatable since your source is EU), then they probably didn't need any:
1. If pirates attack trade routes, the Trade Federation deals with them.
2. If pirates or any other hostile space force attacks a planet, they have their own defences for the most part - for example the peaceful planet of Naboo still has enough fighters to take out any pirate threat.

No other situations would arise, because no-one has a decent sized army - apart from the Trade Federation, and later all of the Commerce Guilds.

Thus, no need for a Republic-run security force, and certainly no need for a Katana fleet.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 04:39 AM
I can tell you presicsely what they used they used the Judiciary Department's Lancet class fighter.

I assume vostok is going off bail organa's claim about no standing army. But he never said anything about a fleet.

What about systems that wern't part of the republic well not system more like regions like the Senex Juves Sectors they had a large standing military sp of course the republc would have had to keep some force.

I believ Republic security forces or the Judicial department helped fill that role

Darth Windu
08-03-2004, 06:03 AM
Phreak, Viceroy - the problem here is that you two are using EU to defend EU - it doesnt work that way.

Death Star - actually, Viceroy, the book 'Rogue Planet' refers to a Death Star design by Sienar. Having said that, the JA trilogy also claims that Palpatine didnt know where the designs came from, which the films proved wrong.

Clones/Stormtroopers - actually, i dont recall anything about an 'Imperial Academy' in the films. Regardless, if there was one, it would simply be for Warship crewers/officers, not Stormtroopers. I should note here however that Lucas contradicts himself when in Rotj the Emporer states that a legion of his 'finest troops' are on Endor.

Republic Wars - as i said, the films claim that 'there hasnt been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic'. This would seem to refer to a large-scale conflict, and therefore events like the 'Mandolorian War' cant have happened.

Republic Military - the Republic had no military prior to the Clone Wars, the films clearly state this. How, therefore, could there have been a Navy and Armoured Vehicles (AT-PT) before that time?

Federation - the 'Incredible Cross-sections' book states the Federation Army is a secret. However, since this army is 'battle-hardenec' (been in many conflicts) this simply cannot be true.

Spice - in EU, this is claimed to be a version of our hard drugs like Herion, Speed etc. However, i doubt the Jedi, Naboo and Amidala would allow such activities on the moon of Naboo.

Jedi Starfighter - at no point in any film is it said when the Jedi Starfighter entered service. Since they look somewhat worn, it is conceivable they have been in service for quite some time.

Anything else you two would like to be proved wrong about? :D

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 06:08 AM
Considering since you've yet to prove us wrong i'll ignore that post as a load of old twaddle

since you've obviuosly read more EU books than I we conceed to you the Title of EU guru

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 10:42 AM
Viecroy: I suppose it is possible a fleet exists, though it is incredibly unlikely, and very curious we haven't seen or heard any part of it when the Republic is in such a security crisis. If there was a fleet, surely they would have at least sent a single fighter as escort for Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's diplomatic cruiser. In fact it is even more curious that no escort was sent for the shuttle that transported the entire Jedi Council and the Supreme Chancellor when they landed on Naboo, particularly considering losing them would be a terrible loss and that they were landing in what was just recently a battle zone. Surely if any one thing warranted an airborne security escort it was this vessel.

Also it's entirely illogical that the Republic would have a sizable security fleet, but no ground force, since a fleet is on the whole pretty useless without ground support.

Windu: Luke talks about going to join the Academy like Biggs in A New Hope. However it is entirely possible this academy is only for fighter pilots, though if the Empire was only using Clones for Stormtroopers it stands to reason they'd only use Clones for TIE Fighter Pilots too, since piloting a TIE takes more skill that just being a Stormtrooper.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 10:47 AM
Phreak, Viceroy - the problem here is that you two are using EU to defend EU - it doesnt work that way.

Yes, it does. EU is part of Star Wars continuity, and I don't care what you say.

Clones/Stormtroopers - actually, i dont recall anything about an 'Imperial Academy' in the films. Regardless, if there was one, it would simply be for Warship crewers/officers, not Stormtroopers. I should note here however that Lucas contradicts himself when in Rotj the Emporer states that a legion of his 'finest troops' are on Endor.

Then what the hell was Luke whining about in Episode 4? He wanted to run off to the Imperial Academy like Biggs did.

Republic Wars - as i said, the films claim that 'there hasnt been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic'. This would seem to refer to a large-scale conflict, and therefore events like the 'Mandolorian War' cant have happened.

I'm sure they could come up with something to explain this. That's how they fix conflicts between Movies/EU.

Republic Military - the Republic had no military prior to the Clone Wars, the films clearly state this. How, therefore, could there have been a Navy and Armoured Vehicles (AT-PT) before that time?

The Police (or as DK mentioned, the Judicals) are not the military. Just like our Police force are not the military. And the AT-PT wasn't created until after the Republic fell, that was pointless.

Federation - the 'Incredible Cross-sections' book states the Federation Army is a secret. However, since this army is 'battle-hardenec' (been in many conflicts) this simply cannot be true.

Those Pirates we mentioned? That's probably who thye fought against.

Spice - in EU, this is claimed to be a version of our hard drugs like Herion, Speed etc. However, i doubt the Jedi, Naboo and Amidala would allow such activities on the moon of Naboo.

I belive those were disgruntled spice pirates. Maybe they were pissed off at Naboo, and are harassing them? I don't know the full story about that.

Jedi Starfighter - at no point in any film is it said when the Jedi Starfighter entered service. Since they look somewhat worn, it is conceivable they have been in service for quite some time.

Well, when it's been in battles, the paint job tends to wear off.


Any more bull**** to come up with? You realize this is going no where, yes?

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 10:58 AM
Well we certainly aren't getting anywhere when you say stuff like this:Yes, it does. EU is part of Star Wars continuity, and I don't care what you say.Though it does explain why our completely logical arguments are being ignored - you don't care what we say, you'll go on believing that Star Wars and EU have continuity anyway.The Police (or as DK mentioned, the Judicals) are not the military.Yet the question of why they weren't escorting the Supreme Chancellor and Jedi Council's shuttle still remains.I belive those were disgruntled spice pirates.You believe wrong. They're disgruntled spice miners.Well, when it's been in battles, the paint job tends to wear off.So you agree the EU is incorrect on this point? Okay then... kind of ruins your continuity theory though...

swphreak
08-03-2004, 11:07 AM
You believe wrong. They're disgruntled spice miners.

I was close :xp:

Still, not all spices are bad. Used in certain ways, they can be used for medical purposes.

So you agree the EU is incorrect on this point? Okay then... kind of ruins your continuity theory though...

If it was created and used prior to the Clone Wars, it'll wear off.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Still, not all spices are bad. Used in certain ways, they can be used for medical purposes.Yes, both EU and the movies support this. Most likely the spice Han Solo smuggles is like an illegal drug, while the spice mined on the moon of Naboo is not.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 11:32 AM
This is the first step towards a middle ground i'm happy that this day has come Purists and Truth Bearer's casn finally start to agree.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:47 AM
From The Star Wars Databank (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/delta7/?id=eu):
The finished model of the Jedi starfighter was unveiled just a few weeks prior to the outbreak of the Clone Wars.So the "Truth Bearers" disagree with the EU? I guess that proves EU to be wrong then.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 12:00 PM
I think we're not understanding each other here.

The Jedi Starfighter was revealed a few weeks prior to the Clone Wars. In those weeks before the Clone War outbreak, those starfighters were probably used. Thus, their new starship smell will have been replaced with sweaty alien Jedi smell and the paint job will wear off. :p


At this point. I think we should agree to drop this discussion, and never bring it up again. And whoever does, shall be stuffed in a sack, beaten, and sacrificed to my Star Wars collection.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 12:01 PM
So you're saying in the two weeks before they were used in the Battle of Geonosis, they were used in some other mysterious battle, accounting for their battle-worn paint jobs?

Since they weren't used in any battles prior to Geonosis, they wear on them can't have come from the couple of weeks they were in service. After two weeks a new car still looks and feels like a new car.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 12:04 PM
A few weeks can range from 2 to 5 weeks or so. In Jedi Starfighter for PS2/XBox, Adi used a Jedi Starfighter to help Nym. And why should it always have to be a battle? Aren't Jedi keepers of the peace?

Also, maybe that's just the way it was made?

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 12:10 PM
I didn't say it had to be a battle, just that any involvement in a battle in the few weeks would account for the same wear and tear that a year or so of normal peace-keeping use would.

But this is a silly argument, because it's all subjective. The only Jedi Starfighter we've seen is the one Obi-Wan used, and it could just be that the last person who used it flew it through a meteor shower and chipped the nice paint job.

There are far worse contradictions than the paintjob on a Jedi Starfighter from the EU.

As most of you are aware, my favourite one is the ability for ysalamiri to live without the presence of the Force.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 12:20 PM
They don't live without the force. It's more like a defensive mechanism, they hide themselves in their "force camo.". Like Palpatine, he manages to keep himself hidden from the Jedi. I don't see how a creature that evolves could manage it.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 12:30 PM
Well, you're definition I could live with, because indeed Palpatine conceals himself with the Force. However that's not the way ysalamiri work according to the database:
From http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/ysalamiri/eu.html
A single ysalamiri creates a bubble in which the Force cannot be manipulated. In groups, the size of the bubble increases. Vast areas in which the Force cannot be used cover Myrkr.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 12:34 PM
What's wrong with that? It doesn't say "The force doesn't exist in the bubble." It is just saying that the yslamiri are simply preventing force users from using/manipulating the force. Like tieing your hands behind your back. You can't use them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 12:39 PM
Okay, so it doesn't say the Force is completely absent from the bubble. But if the Force can't be manipulated, how are they generating the bubble in the first place?

I find it very hard to believe this is the same thing Palpatine is doing.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 03:53 PM
It's like asking a Drackmarian why it breathes Methane it does it to survive.

An ysalmiri Generates The No Force bubble to protect it from the force predators the Vonskyrs

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 04:03 PM
I'm not asking why it does it. I'm asking how it does it.

Surely if such manipulation of the Force were possible, Jedi could just use bubbles to shield themselves from Sith Lightning.

FroZticles
08-04-2004, 12:56 AM
No, because then they would lose there force powers also. The Force is not creating that bubble the ysalamiri is.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 05:40 AM
Yes propably using spedcial organs or glands it as of yet unclear since i've mentioed the unreliabilty of delivery of my information.

FOr Ysalmiri it's evloution on how it got like that

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 10:56 AM
Okay, I may have to admit defeat on the part of the ysalamiri. Though still feel incredibly wrong for how the Force works, but I can't prove it.

Let's discuss the Yuuzhan Vong. Admittedly I know even less about them than I do about ysalamiri, as I've read the Thrawn books but not the NJO ones.

So please, someone explain to me their exact relationship with the Force before I start pointing out how wrong they are.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 11:16 AM
OK i shall

On their ancient homeworld {Yuuzhan'tar} they lived with a group mind where the barriers between their minds really didn't exist they lived in harmony with their homeworld which was alive and had sentience. then a spacefaring race attacked Yuzhan'tar and the living world gave the Ur-Yuuzhan Vong technology to fight them which ignited in them a need for conquest which saw many wolrds destroyed along with many latent planatery conciusonouses, at the same time they raised barriers around thier minds and Yuuzhan'tar appaled at the bloodshed cast them out of their homeworld and stripped them off the force and was subsequentyl attacked by the Yuuzhan vong Before Yuuzhan'tar died it sent forth a Seed that would travel between the galxies to the star wars galaxy which eventually became Zonama Sekot. The yuuzhan vong in need of something to ascribe the powers of Yuuzhan'tar created a Pantheon of gods and since they were stripped of the force and symbiosis they adopted the mantle of pain and cruel sacrifice thinking they were worshiping life they were really worshipping the last way to symbiosis. Through death. eventually through constant warring among themselves since they had already deafted all other species on their home galaxy eventually made most worlds uninhabbitable. set on a great pilgramage across the void to our galaxy follwing the same interstellarwinds as Zonama Sekot did. They could not advance beyond the bio-technology they were given so the Shapers accepted they shouldn't create new biots when really they couldn't.

They eventually get the force back when they realise Zonama Sekot is the child of their long lost homeworld and they discover how their gods were really a planet a living planet at that by working with Zonnamas Boras Sekot will get to know them better and in time they will regain the force thus saving a species once doomed to self extinction.

A breif history of the yuuzhan vong

One other note

The Chiss knew of their existance and through them the emporer learned because the Chiss had began fortifying their territory and this sparked Emporer Palpatine to try and crush the rebels more quickly so he could marhsall his forces in preparation for this new threat. which was rerally at least 50 years old because some years prior to the battle of naboo a reconaisance force led by Commander Zho Krazhmir attacked and tried to claim zonama but sekot resisted and eventually Vergere went to try to mediate with them while zonama prepared but the battle Awakened the previuosly Dormant consciuonous that became Sekot Zoname being the body Sekot being the mind. Zonama had huge hyperspace engines implanted on it's surface and used these to look for a sanctuary after the yuuzhan vong force returned to the worldship convoy to report. Zho Krazmhir got a new leg implant and died in his sleep some time later his implant not haviong gone well.

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 11:22 AM
Well there sure are a lot of unpronouncable words in that. :p

"Stripped of the Force" - does this mean what I think it does? They were somehow living without the Force? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying?

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 11:27 AM
The force can affect them they are just blind to it.


However

one yuuzhan Vong Biot is not outside of the force

The Yammosk war co-ordinator


Major NJO SPoiler Read AT Your Peril








Supreme Overlord Onimi Grafted Yammosk Cells To his own Nueral Tissue ANd Regained The Force





so you see the yuuzhan vong can get the force back in several ways but Zonama sekot will gradually restore it to them What it's parent has done can only be undone by it the child.

really i would advise getting up to date on the NJO series since it does say extensively that the yuuzhan vong can be affected by it. you can choke them by raising air pressure using the force. you can lift them by defining where they are.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 11:59 AM
SO no answer eh it looks like NJO has been so well crafted storyline wise to make sure it's all explained.

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 05:19 PM
Well what exactly does "stripped of the Force" mean if they are still affected by it? Plenty of people are "blind" to the Force, take Han Solo for example.

I distinctly remember some immunity to Force powers being mentioned on the Databank entry, though now it mysteriously mentions nothing about the Yuuzhan Vong relationship to the Force. Could it be the authors realised their mistakes and corrected them by concocting a bizarre back story?

swphreak
08-04-2004, 11:02 PM
I just think the Databank people are idiots. Especially the webmaster. C'mon, the site looks like crap, how much more can you expect from the people that write the databank entries?

Darth Windu
08-05-2004, 01:07 AM
Vostok - basically, with the YV, the storyline goes that a living planet removed the ability of the VY to exist inside the force, and for them to touch the force. Because of this, the Jedi were unable to sence the VY and had huge problems in fighting them.

This was all part of the desire by the EU writers to produce a 'super-enemy' with their ability to be 'force-stealthy', having living organisms as weapons that lightsabre's cant cut (yeah...right), and the ability of their starships to produce miniture black holes that would absorb weapons fired at them.

All of these are, in my mind, completely and utterly against the entire SW universe and are extremely unrealistic.

lukeiamyourdad
08-05-2004, 03:17 AM
Amen. The YV belong in Star Trek.

I'm gone and you guys have yet again(for the frigging twentieth time or something) another EU vs Movie debate?!

Oy I'm gonna be sick...

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 03:25 AM
Ok the toilet's down the hall 6th turn on the right

Windu there is no reason to repeat what i've already said it's no attempt to create a super enemy you just cannot accept truth when it's been explained.

I agree about the database it is extremely unreliable.

Though i hardly think they had problems fighting the vong sure these advantages took a little while to be nullified but were nullified.

Everyweapon had it's disadvantage like the Dovin basal's inability to protect the entire ship thus needing many of them. The dovin basal also attracted meteor's to them while sheilds would repulse them.

I could go on and on and on and propably will until you accept the facts and understand the truth

FroZticles
08-05-2004, 07:10 AM
I don't see the big deal about EU, I like finding out what happens beyond the movies even if some of it conflicts its just interesting. End all the debates because you will never get everyone to accept or reject EU as Star Wars.

XBebop
08-05-2004, 07:59 AM
*cough* Another way of putting all of this: Pure ****.

You people are fighting over stuff that's never even happened. Also, Lukeiamyourdad, can I kill you? Becuase you're as close-minded as Hitler. The Yuuzhan Vong are perhaps the most original villains to ever be in a book series. They have a strongly molded history, unlike the Sith... Heh.

I love the movies, the EU, and the Sith... If you hate EU and only like the movies, you're not a true fan. Unless the books really sucked... But that's another story.


That's my cent.

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 10:16 AM
Once again the cause of truth shows it's righteousnous as we welcome someone into the Federation Of Truth Bearers who accepts EU and the movies as one and them same



As Star Wars

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 10:45 AM
If you hate EU and only like the movies, you're not a true fan.This is the second biggest untruth that really gets on my nerves. No-one could ever question my devotion to the movies, and indeed I love the movies so much I hate how EU has made a mockery of them. I've never questioned anyone's fandom as a result of their love for EU, I'd like to think most EUFans would do me the same courtesy and realise there is more than one way to be a Star Wars fan.

And if you think Yuuzhan Vong are original, you are gravely mistaken. They are remarkably similar to a number of other sci-fi bad-guys.

While we're killing people for their closed-minds, we may as well start with XBebop.


EDIT: I forgot to progress the argument further than just negating XBebop.

Here's a quote I found from a review of Vector Prime on theforce.net:Many people accuse them of being rip offs of other sci-fi aliens. But you know what? The Star Wars films ripped off Buck Rodgers, Flash Gordon, Wizard of Oz, Dune, and countless other stories. The Yuuzhan Vong rip off Alien, the Abyss, Independence Day, Jim Shooter's Warriors of Plasm comic, and tons of other recent sci-fi. I just recently thought that the Yuuzhan Vong seem to represent 90's-like grim, gritty, and bleak sci-fi while the Star Wars Universe characters seem to represent the golden age of sci-fi. This book seems to almost be a battle between the two outlooks at sci-fi. I loved the Yuuzhan Vong technology and totally alien weaponry.Although the reviewer sees this juxtaposition of sci-fi themes as a good thing, the fact that the Yuuzhan Vong and the proper Star Wars represent "two [different] outlooks at sci-fi" is precisely why the Vong don't fit into the Star Wars Universe.

Star Wars is about the "golden age of sci-fi", it is not supposed to be about the "grim, gritty and bleak sci-fi". It's as out of place as if you had Buck Rogers fighting the Independence Day aliens.

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 03:13 PM
RIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTT

the golden age was 40 years ago this is the age of truth

Old fossils get out In case anyone hasn't noticed the 2 latest star wars used more CGG than Toy Story 2 ANd the legend of Zelda WIn Waker put together that's hardly harking back to the golden age espoecially since if I had asked you sveral ytears ago before episode one was released that a book about epsisode one was EU you'd say it was EU


incidently would you COnsdier Geroge Lucas's OFFICIAL screenplay illustrated by the g man himself EU?

lukeiamyourdad
08-05-2004, 03:29 PM
XBebop- I suggest you use other comparison then close-minded ones yourself.

Viceroy-Using CG technology has nothing to do with Golden Age or your "Age of Truth". Vostok is talking about this story-wise.
The Star Wars STORY was inspired from Buck Rodgers, Flash Gordon, Dune, etc. while the Yuuzhan Vong is based from more modern sci-fi.

I've always looked at the YV as the Aliens from Mars invading the Earth. OOOO Original...


See? Now you've dragged me in this...

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 03:31 PM
I think you misunderstand... I'm not talking about production elements, which is what CGI is, I'm talking about stylistic representations, story themes and general plot devices.

As to your question: I'm not exactly sure what an "official" screenplay is, but if you're referring to Lucas' final draft of the screenplay, it is one of those things that falls into the gap between the Movies and EU. It doesn't always agree with the final versions of the films, but it is far from being part of the Expanded Universe. It's the same as asking whether the first draft Tim Zahn wrote of Heir to the Empire is continuous with the final published version.

EDIT: Hey Luke'sDad, you posted at the same time as me. Are you back from your Vietnamese trek?

lukeiamyourdad
08-05-2004, 03:36 PM
Off-topic:

Yup, back home! That's why I'm back as a regular poster and I'll maybe play this weekend if I'm free. There is a game this weekend right?

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 03:40 PM
[OFF TOPIC] Yep, every weekend same time so far. Hope to see you there! [/OFF TOPIC]

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 03:46 PM
Considering since the only few discrepancies are the fact that he's done the droids ships from pre naboo federation where they were piloted by droids instead of the starfight ebing the actuialt droid, and of course how he originally wanted the nomodians to look like but unfortunatly couldn't for some reaons, i believ it was costuming ir it being a little too fiddly i never did find out.


ANd believe me this is the OFFICIAL one that was created before the film was made so the actors would have a visual thing to look at it even says that before it launches in it has the scripts and everything beleive me this thing is PURE GOSPHEL OF TRUTH i'd scan some tuff up but i don't have the time or the inclination to scan up all 156 pages.

It looks like your "definition" falls short of reality this has the script storyboards everything you can cealerly see how it devloped from sketches to reality.

Welcome back luke have you been to the toilet to be sick yet:p

btw is the next game sunday same time same place?

:bdroid2: the droids are ready to hunt:bdroid2:

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 03:59 PM
Well since all the drafts of every screenplay George Lucas has written could be termed "Official", I'll continue in assuming you mean the final draft, which I do have a copy of.

What I said previously still holds true. It falls into the gap between Movies and EU. I also place deleted scenes in this gap, but things like the novelisations and radio dramas I would class as EU. I need a name for this "gap"... maybe Almost-Movie?

But then again there are different kinds of EU, which of course I've discussed at length before. Extrapolated Expanded Universe and Pure Expanded Universe; the former (EEU) including the novelisations and things like the name "All Terrain Armoured Transport", while the latter (PEU) is made up of the Yuuzhan Vong and Darktroopers and what have you.

So in summary, the order of canon is:

MOVIES -> ALMOST-MOVIE -> EEU -> PEU

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 04:03 PM
you need another name for that if you say it out loud it stinks and i mean litteraly peeuu stinky

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 04:15 PM
Well PEU does stink. :D ;)

Seriously though I agree, if only to avoid confusion between Pure Expanded Universe and Star Wars Purism, which are complete opposites.

Perhaps Totally Expanded Universe (TEU)?

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Maybe but TEU is a clan and not a particularly pleasent one you wou;ldn't want to name the truth after a bunch of rapists theives and jedi starfighter loachers would you?

EVn you are not as heinous to defile the truth surely?:confused::confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 04:46 PM
I'm sure there's probably a clan for every acronym out there.

How about Completely Expanded Universe (CEU)?

Also Viceroy I'm going to have to ask you include the term "truth" in your posts less. I don't know what you're referring to half the time you say "the truth". Just say EU or whatever you're referring too. Less confusing that way.

FroZticles
08-06-2004, 03:59 AM
I'm sitting on the fence and watching the smackdown. Although calling only the movies "the only true Star Wars storyline" is just not the case. If that were true Lucas would have not given the Star Wars name to other companies to add more to the story. If thats his vision for Star Wars he would not let anyone else touch it but himself. EU is on the same level as the movies. Even the "purists" have used EU to back there statements up one time or another.

DK_Viceroy
08-06-2004, 05:42 AM
Your propably right their Frosticles.

though there's a fundamental differnce between Purists and Truth Bearer's

ones narrow minded the other is open minded.

I won't say which because it's obvious

ALso therre isn't every acronymnot even half of them jest TEU are a bunch of murder's rapists and stelkthed jedi star fighter loachers

Darth Windu
08-06-2004, 06:23 AM
On-topic
Viceroy - EU not on the same level as the films and it never will be. Just accept it and move on with your life.

Vostok - I would suggest that, instead of PEU you could call it CRAP but I couldn't come up with any good meanings for the initials.

Off-topic
Viceroy - i will tell you this once and once only. DO NOT use the term 'rapist' to describe someone you do not like. A family member of mine was raped and i find it extremely offensive for you to be using that term in the way. Again - cut it out.

DK_Viceroy
08-06-2004, 07:13 AM
Unless you know who i'm describing refrain from giving anyone a diatrabe.

And at least Vostok does not have a closed mind he's actually willing to argue the point you just see things in black and white. Numerous mistakes in history have been caused by that.

i'll just leave it at that

lukeiamyourdad
08-06-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
1.Unless you know who i'm describing refrain from giving anyone a diatrabe.

2.And at least Vostok does not have a closed mind he's actually willing to argue the point you just see things in black and white. Numerous mistakes in history have been caused by that.

i'll just leave it at that

1- Matters little who you're describing. He doesn't like it because he knows someone who got raped. Leave it to that.

2- I would also like to point out that you're not overly open-minded yourself, calling yourself Truth bearer when Star Wars doesn't exist so therefore is somekind of LIE.
Sorry, I'm just a bit annoyed by that Truth crap.

Admiral Vostok
08-06-2004, 10:43 AM
Haven't you read Viceroy's sig, people? Everything he says is a lie. So essentially he's agreeing with us. :D

Frozticles: George Lucas' motivations for licensing the Star Wars name was money. Nothing else. It certainly wasn't because he wanted his films expanded. If that were the case, he wouldn't be going back and contradicting most of the EU with the prequel films, would he?

DK_Viceroy
08-06-2004, 11:55 AM
Beleive me there are worse things than {not saying for windu's Feelings }

In england there was a girl called sarah cameron who lived in the area I do, if i had arrived at the metro station even a minute later i would have gotten the same train as her back home and would have gone up the same path at the same time as she was abducted and then murdered, what's worse is that I saw her running to try and get on the metro so it was all the more shocking. Now that is traumatising to think i nearly got murdered.

Vostok my sig is about the inadaquecy of all language and words since there are often things that defy description and usually end up extremely diluted to words like shock and awe.

Darth Windu
08-07-2004, 09:32 AM
Viceroy - i don't give a flying f**k about you missing trains. If you want to insult people, fine, go ahead, I really couldn't care less. BUT don't you dare insult every person who has been raped and/or murdered by sprouting off immature insults like you did.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 09:59 AM
whoever said empathy was a form of sympathy should be castrated since it certainly doesn't work round here.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 12:24 PM
Geez Viceroy, have a little heart man! Sensitivity to others feelings is a virtue, you know.

I'd like to use all the power of my being to force this thread back on topic.

At this point I'd like to go beyond the continuity between Movies and EU and look in to the underlying themes and stylistic choices of both.

Star Wars is not simply Science Fiction. It is an amalgalm of genres, jumbled together on purpose to create "Movies about Movies". Few if any other movies have so successfully combined genres from all sorts of different sources as Star Wars. Many of the stranger stylistic decisions ridiculed by less-educated critics can quite reasonably interpreted as yet another attempt to try and fit every genre imaginable into these six movies. The original Star Wars, A New Hope, was probably the most successful in the genre combination, but there are notable successes in the other movies too.

I'm a student of film, and I've theorised that by the time all six movies are completed, it will be hard to find a major movie genre that isn't referenced at least partially by Star Wars. All of them refer to Sci-Fi, Fantasy, War and Adventure films, and half of them also have Romance, but these genres are quite often combined with sci-fi. I'd like to go through now and point out the other genre hybridisations in Star Wars that are not often (or at least were not at the time) combined with sci-fi:
:atat: A New Hope - Western, Samurai, Fantasy (stronger than the rest of the film's Fantasy elements).
:atat: The Empire Strikes Back - Horror, Greek Tragedy, Coming-Of-Age.
:atat: Return of the Jedi - Gangster, Musical, High Seas Adventure.
:atat: The Phantom Menace - Cartoon, Sports, Politics.
:atat: Attack of the Clones - Documentary, Sword-and-Sandal, Film Noir.

Those are just the most obvious ones (if you are curious of any that I've stated I'll discuss the references).

Now, I finally come to my point: Genre Hybridisation is for the most part wholly lacking in EU. For the most part, the EU stories are pure Sci-Fi, at their best they manage to throw in a minute Fantasy element, some Adventure and maybe Romance. But on the whole, any genre not normally associated with pure-Sci-Fi is on the whole avoided.

THIS is why EU does not fit with the Movies. The Movies were made almost completely as an amalgalm of genres, as a homage to the great movies of Classic Hollywood. The EU is not. They are very different.

The above is the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 12:35 PM
I know what episode 3's called i also know a little bit about who's in it check out starwars.com
and look under dtabase and go to ep 3 it tells you the title.

I was trying to be sympathetic by using empathy i remeber someone saying empathy is the highest form of sympathy. but sinc some people obviuoisly don'y handle that well i'll turn the proverbial blind ear to anything like that in future.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 12:51 PM
ON TOPIC:
I know what Episode III is called, and I'm assuming everyone else here does too. I'm not sure what the title Revenge of the Sith has to do with my above argument.

OFF TOPIC:
Perhaps you need to realise empathy doesn't really come across well in a text format, particularly when written in run-on sentences and started with the phrase "believe me there are worse things than..." For that matter empathy even in person doesn't work when you start with that phrase. Perhaps instead of rejecting empathy altogether you should learn a better way to communicate it.

And I assume you mean "blind eye" rather than "blind ear"...

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 12:58 PM
ON-What about Kotor units, any of you keen on putting some of them in? (not accepting the whole story, just the units). My thread too, most of this went over my head as far as the EU is concerned.

Off-Lose the PC garbage, if thats the comparatives DK wants to use then he may use them, trying to hush people or limit their speech shows a sincere lack of understanding to how important it is for someone to be able to voice their own opinions.

Right now there is an infant being dissected for parts so they can be sold on the black market to western families who don't want to risk the wait a donor list results in. Ten percent of the children who go missing in the united states are sold overseas, I could on, and on, and on. If DK is not directly referring to the woman who was raped then you can get over it Windu.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 01:11 PM
ON - If you're asking whether or not KOTOR units are considered EU or not, they most certainly are.

OFF - Free speech is one thing, sensitivity to another's feelings is totally different. It's not political correctness, it's human decency. It seems despite your apparently enormous intellect, this concept escapes you too, Puzzlebox.

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 01:57 PM
On-What I mean is would you mind or like to see Kotor units in the next game.

Off-I would imagine the concept of sensitivity "escapes" me for pathological reasons, it is good to care about those close to you and be overly tentative to such needs from them but avoiding using references or things like that for society as a whole is ridiculous, stop catering.

General Nitro
08-07-2004, 02:00 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing KOTOR units, but I don't want the game overrun with them.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 02:07 PM
ON TOPIC: Well since I consider KOTOR to be completely EU I think that answers your question.

OFF TOPIC: Personally I won't "stop catering" for "society as a whole" since I'm not a sociopath, but each to his own.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 03:09 PM
Some of the arguments you two have are pretty deep but sometimes they seem pretty funny despite the morbid topic. I however cringe to think what any new potenetial forumites would think.

lukeiamyourdad
08-07-2004, 07:25 PM
It's not a secret that we're a bunch of sickos.

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 08:19 PM
That's ok you can still whisper it in my ear ;)

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 01:19 AM
It seems like every time I bring out my genre-combining argument of why EU isn't Star Wars that no one has any comebacks. I really should start bringing it out earlier in the debates to settle these things a lot sooner... but the drawn out argument is more fun. :D

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 04:37 AM
And funny too. however i think people are just accepting your argument about being multi genre because that they are but you haven't taken the effort to read some have you?

The courtship of princess Leia is hardly purely Sci-Fi it's as cross genra as some of the films. it has sci fi reomance comedy and suspence with a lot of intruige.

FroZticles
08-08-2004, 08:31 AM
I don't feel like starting another debate which ends up with EU vs Movies. I love Star Wars games EU or not thats all that matters :D

General Nitro
08-08-2004, 09:13 AM
Well, severl pre-existing units are not exactly from the EU, but they have for certain not been in any movies. A few examples include grenade troopers, rebel troops, gungan air, all naval units, etc. So you see, the entire game can't be from the movies.

swphreak
08-08-2004, 09:45 AM
I'm gone for a day and we go from discussing EU/Movies to sexual assaults and Windu's feelings....

At this point in our "argument," I propose we agree to disagree, and go back to discussing Galactic Battlegrounds before DMUK closes this thread and temp bans the whole lot of us.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 11:22 AM
you haven't taken the effort to read some have you?Yes I have actually. I've stated in the past I was once quite an EU fan. I still have at least twenty of the novels on my bookshelf, and have read probably twice that number.The courtship of princess Leia is hardly purely Sci-Fi it's as cross genra as some of the films. it has sci fi reomance comedy and suspence with a lot of intruige.It is not cross genre. Suspence and Intrigue are not genres. As for Romance and Comedy, those Genres are really too broad, and you'll find just about every sci-fi has at least some small amount of Romance or Comedy in them, so there inclusion in EU is expected rather than novel.

Here's a list of genres that are commonly combined with Sci-Fi nowadays:
- Fantasy
- Horror
- Romance
- Comedy
- War
- Adventure
- Action

The genre hybridisation that Star Wars performs is much less common, combining genres not normally associated with sci-fi like Westerns, Musicals and Greek Tragedies. So I invite you to point out any EU that includes genres not in my list above.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 11:33 AM
Befoire i accept this cake walk of a challenge Define acceptable genre names and define them precisely so i'll be able to justify correcting you.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 11:57 AM
Here's a list of film genres as defined by Wikipedia. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_movie_genres for links to definitions. The ones I've italicised are commonly combined with science fiction, and as such are not viable retorts. If any non-italicised ones appear in any EU, I would very much like to know.

- Action-adventure film
- - Buddy Cop film (Two cops, usually of mismatched personalities, work together)
- Animated film
- Art film (Often little or no plot, focusses more on visuals than emotional content)
- Biographical film (Follows the story of a real-life person)
- Black comedy (Humerous yet morbid)
- Blaxploitation (Features an African American cast, aimed for the most part entirely at an African American audience. Mostly made in the 70s, but the definition can be extended to modern films too.)
- Chick Flick (Sappy, emotional movie, usually romance or drama)
- Cinema Verite (Focusses on the "real" - use of real people and settings rather than actors and sets)
- Comedy film
- Disaster film
- Documentary film ("Fly-on-the-wall" observations of real subjects or visuals compiled from archive footage, often with a narrative or to-camera interviews.)
- Drama film
- Exploitation film (Usually films made for the lowest common denominator, foregoing artistic merits for shock value)
- Expressionist film (Film that displays an external representation of the inner mind, usually centring on madness or crime)
- Family film
- Fantasy film
- Film fantastique
- Film noir (Stylistically lit and staged, it usually centres on a lonely character who comes to an unfortunate end. Usually features some sort of "femme fatale", a powerful female figure who brings about the main character's misery.)
- Gangster film (Explores the characters of the underworld and how they control the rest of society around them. Usually features betrayal or conflict within an organisation, or rivalry between one or more organisations.)
- Gothic film
- Historical drama film (Set in a notable time period of the past, often against the background of a notable historical event such as a war.)
- Horror film
- - Slasher film (Aimed at teen audiences, a killer will systematically kill cast members in gory detail until the central female character defeats them and reveals their true identity)
- Martial arts film (Features extensive fight scenes. The central character usually has a master who teaches them the way of their martial art. Vengeance is a common theme.)
- - Wu Xia film (Centres more on chivalry in martial arts, such as amongst Samurai.)
- Mockumentary film (a fake documentary done for comedic purposes.)
- Musical film (Characters spontaneously burst in to song to convey emotions and further the plot.)
- Mystery film
- Propaganda film (Usually made by governments at least partially, their purpose is to rally the morale of a population at war)
- Romance film
- Romantic comedy film (Two mismatched characters meet and through a series of "hilarious" events fall in love)
- Science fiction film (Duh)
- Sports film (Centres on characters playing a sport, who usually end up as professionals if they weren't already.)
- Spy film (A lone character, sometimes backed by a team, usues secret identities and special equipment to fight for a secret organisation against enemies of the state or even enemies within their midst)
- Surrealist film (Art film with bizarre or unusual visual aspects)
- Sword and sandal (Set in ancient times in Meditteranean nations. Usually deal with a central characters struggle against the harshness of their situation.)
- Teen film (Exploitation film targetted purely at teen or adolescent audiences.)
- Thriller film
- War film
- - Submarine film (Type of war film high in tension as the crew of a submarine must deal with enemy subs, problems with their own sub and issues of living in confined space)
- Western film (Set in the American frontier, with a lonely central character who selflessly defends the people of a settlement against crooks. Usually they ride of into the sunset at the end.)

Now I understand that because they're books and not films, EU can't combine genres as well as the movies. Yet there are several tropes in many of the above genres that could easily be combined in a novel, which would add to the StarWarsyness, yet they are not.

General Nitro
08-08-2004, 12:31 PM
The Courtship of Princess Leia is a chick flick, lol.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 02:04 PM
Please bear in mind even though i am an EU guru my collection of these high quality epics extends only as far as the thrawn trilogy and it's subsequent duology and the NJO series I am however steadily expanding it on my meager pocket money of 5 pounds a week.

WOuld spy class as infiltration commando style? because if it does you need to examine the NJO Rebel stand and Rebel dream Duology.

and ganagster i'm sure would be tales from jaba's palace.

I'll have to get back to you when i've read some more

I would however reccomend examining that list and removing the ones obviuosly not in like pornographic and 3-d.

Lucas Literature would certainly never see any book with relation to star wars and pronographic see the light of day

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 02:15 PM
WOuld spy class as infiltration commando style?No it would not, "infiltration commando style" would fall under War film. Spy films typically revolve around a solitary spy or small group of spies who take on secret identities and act on or against orders from secret government organisations. Think of the Bond films and the Bourne Identity/Supremecy.gangster i'm sure would be tales from jaba's palace.That's true though the only gangster elements in Tale from Jabba's Palace are those already included in Return of the Jedi. In fact most of the stories in TfJP bear no resemblence to the Gangster genre - the fact they include gangsters does not necessarily reference the Gangster genre explicitely, it also requires certain thematic influences and in the case of film, aesthetic considerations.

I'll remove 3-D film (since I personally don't consider it a genre) and pornographic film, though I just included them since it was a complete dump of the list from wikipedia.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 02:42 PM
also for this would it have to be all that way or have certain parts that way because rebel stand and rebel dream include spy activities in somewhat limited qunatities but nonethe less includes them

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 03:03 PM
Obviously it doesn't have to be completely one genre, as that defeats the purpose of hybridisation.

I feel I should point out that just because a novel will have a spy or a gangster in it, it doesn't necessarily genre-hybridise with the Spy Genre or the Gangster Genre.

So I ask to what extent spies feature in these novels. Is there a single character, taking on a secret identity, usually well-dressed and mingling with high society, working to stop a terrorist plot against his/her government? Or are the spies working to gather intelligence against a powerful organisation for their own terrorist movement? If it is the former, it uses the Spy Genre, if it is the latter, it uses the War Genre.

It might be a bit hard for the untrained observer to tell the difference, but what I suggest you do is look at the list of films listed in Wikipedia by clicking on the Spy film hyperlink. Think of what each movie listed there has in common. If this is also evident in the EU, then it is successful genre hybridisation.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 04:05 PM
This will however mean reading several thousand pages in the space of a week a doddle from someone who read the fifth harry potter book in the space of a day but not particularly pleasent when you know what most of it is about and are looking meticulously for genre's that are in their but usually need a second opinion.

When i do find them however I will scan them up and upload them.

weith that definition of spy though that brings Force heretic's 2 and 3 into that genre since Naagulah spies on shimraa under her guise as a high ranking preist of the decpetion cast while working for the heresy and aiding them by stifling attempts to stamp out the movement which is a sort of government for shamed ones.

and the rebel stand and dream books combine the two definitions. since in yuuzhan vong society the Warrior caste is often considered one of the most important and so the wraiths and co wear in some casses reall Vonduun Crab and in other cases fake vonduun crab to gather intell;igence and plant sleeper cells on couruscant after it's fall but it's not a governemt sponsered operations it's an insider and republic military operation at the same time.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 04:24 PM
If the genre hybridisation was anywhere near the extent of the films, you wouldn't need to meticulously read every page, they'd be obvious.

I'll let you have Spy films from that description of Force Heretic. But you're going to need a lot more than that to even border on the genre hybridisation that proper Star Wars does.

Each and every book should have at least two genre hybridisations in them to be considered in the ballpark of the movies.

You say you own the Thrawn Trilogy and the NJO series. These are the two most popular series in EU. If you can't find genre hybridisation in them it doesn't reflect well on the EU as a whole.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 04:38 PM
Bear in mind it's been a while since i read them all in proper order.

Star by star has some romance in it as well as the force heretic.

star by star has Anakin and Tahiri becomming more in love only to be hurt all the more bt anakins death. would loss of someone you loved class as romance as well i wonder?

Force heretic has Danni Quee and Jacen moving closer together into a relationship.

Thrawn has spying in it in terms of Thrawn constantly sending spies into the smuggler's and of course Delta source.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 04:43 PM
Romance is one of the italicised list entries, and therefore inadmissible.

I've already accepted Spy Genre, what else have you got?

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 05:09 PM
I suppose the Uniying Force could come under documentry since It for the first time puts the new jedi beleifs into plain speak writing.

I thought there was such thing as a conspiracy Genre.

and perhaps Phillosophy Genra where it tends to have large amounts of philosophy in it.

traitor Is almost certainly a Film Noir as well as if you accept phillosphical a philosohpical one.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 05:29 PM
I would have thought documentary is one of the genres that can't be captured in a novel, so I'd be interested to see why you feel "The Unifying Force" to have done so.

There isn't such a thing as a Conspiracy Genre. Movies featuring Conspiracies are either Science Fiction or Spy.

Philosophy is not a genre either. For the most part Philosophy is explored in the Science Fiction genre indirectly (robots being a metaphor for philosophy on what it means to be human).

How is traitor Film Noir? I'm unfamiliar with it so I just want to know.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 05:44 PM
That explains why no one understands my sig about truth.

In traitor Jacen solo is betrayed BY vergere several times. betrayal being a very constant theme thus one element of film noir. Jacen ends up trapped on the vongformin Yuuzhan'tar and priot on a Yuuzhan vong seedship both places he wouldn't want to be but he ends up there. Jacen commits a vicous act by using the dark side out of despair. and Vergere gets punished by nearly getting her neck snapped and later in another book dies. Increadibly pessimistic because it even made me seem like their was no hope in life. Traitor could also be documentry because it talks alot about jedi philospophy and Yuuzhan vong philosophy and sees large scale characted devlopment to the point where it's increadibly upsetting to see vergere die in a later book I had grown to like her as an enigmatic character.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 06:03 PM
Just because betrayal is in film noir and Traitor has betrayal doesn't mean Traitor uses Film Noir. And just because a book talks a lot about something in depth doesn't make it like a documentary.

I'll go back to the list I posted above to define elements you should look for to identify genres.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 06:13 PM
how about you fliter all of the ones tht wouldn't be in a star warsy novel and then post the list in your next post for ease of use. and after reading film noir very carefully Traitor does seem to fit that very well but i don't do descriptions well.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 06:38 PM
Well if I were to filter the ones that aren't in Star Wars novels, they'd all be gone wouldn't they? The purpose of this exercise is to demonstrate how imaginatively George Lucas has combined very different genres while EU has made no attempt at genre hybridisation.

EDIT: I'll tell you what I will do. I'll take out the ones that I see as impossible to translate to books.

lukeiamyourdad
08-08-2004, 06:44 PM
Weird that I scroll down for 2 minutes and all I can see are posts from Vostok and Viceroy...

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 06:48 PM
Well it was either post here or do work :p

Viceroy: I took out all the genres where I couldn't think of a way they would be incorporated into a novel.

Here's some examples of non-Star Wars books I've read with unusual genre hybridisation:

JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings: The shear amount of singing in this borders on a Musical. Thankfully it was toned down in the movies :p
Frank Herbert's Dune: At the start of each chapter is an extract from essays about things in the Dune Universe, very Documentary-like.
Bram Stoker's Dracula: The whole story is told through diary entries, newspaper clippings and personal letters, giving it a very Cinema Verite quality.

Puzzlebox
08-09-2004, 01:56 AM
Thats because I find their discussion boring and was hitting on you.

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 06:17 AM
- Martial arts film (Features extensive fight scenes.

you could say the NJO series is that because every book there's some sort of fight. though if yu want examples that fit this more precisely look at the first 3-5 books in the NJO series and of course the final two where there is extensive fighting.

The central character usually has a master who teaches them the way of their martial art.

Thta could be classed as master Luke master Kyp or several other

Vengeance is a common theme.)

In the earlier books there is a lot of vengance drivenfights particulalrly by wurth skidder, kyp and ganner.

- Film noir (Stylistically lit and staged, it usually centres on a lonely character

Traitor is almost exclusively about Jacen there's only a handful of short paragraphs were Jacen isn't the star attraction and then it's got character's dicussing Jacen's actions.

who comes to an unfortunate end.

I'd say subjected to Yuuzhan vong cooking and tunrning to the dark side for a time while seeing all that he loved and knew on coruscant being turned into a yuuzhan vong homeworld on which he lives knowing he will only live long enough to kill or be killed by his sister in a yuuzhan vong twin sacrifice.

Usually features some sort of "femme fatale", a powerful female figure who brings about the main character's misery.)

Vergere certainly fits that bill and indeed is responsible for almost all of his pain and suffering. she put him in the embrace of pain. she was the one who got him captured in the first place. and in the second place and in the third place. she helped in demolishing his world view which caused him much anguish.

Admiral Vostok
08-09-2004, 11:23 AM
Okay, that all sounds convincing, although Martial Arts is a bit of a stretch. One of the more important aspects of the vengeance themes in Martial Arts is that the main character usually avenges the death of either their master or a family member.

The film noir argument is convincing; although usually the central character is a low life with no love, especially not for family, the presence of a definate femme fatale makes this borderline acceptable.

So far we've got:
Spy
Martial Arts
Film Noir

All in three separate books. You've got a long way to go...

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 11:53 AM
The Journey Of A Thousand Miles Begin With A Single Step

I hope you arn't expecting me to do this for every book written for star wars because i don't even have a quarter of the ones out there. and what happened to NJO and the Thrawn trilogy and duology being represenative of star wars EU from what you said about that i was under the impression i'd merely have to justify those.

remeber the main fighters were jedi and the one most affected by that would have been luke and he knows he can't act out of vengance.

However Ganner kills Shedao Shai in a duel for vengance for the killing and the decoration of the corpse of the Camaasi Senate Elgeos A'kla

Admiral Vostok
08-09-2004, 11:58 AM
Well it certainly would be difficult to do the whole EU, so I'll set you a simple task.

Since I've read the Thrawn Trilogy, that seems the best one to prove your point to me.

Find three explicit cross-genre references (not just coincidences like "they both have lots of fights") in the Thrawn Trilogy.

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 12:02 PM
That now means i have to try and cajole my mate into giving them back then he borrowed them for some "light" reading. A simple enough task though one weuastion am i allowed to use ones that i've already proven especially since with the exception Expersionist the rest arn't remotley related to star wars. and i'm pretty sure from last reading that they arn't in the thrawn trilogy.

Admiral Vostok
08-09-2004, 01:17 PM
Yep, you can use the other ones, though if you're going to include Martial Arts you need to provide a much stronger case than "they fight a lot" and "have masters". Other elements of Martial Art films includes the hero fighting alone (not supported by an army), the hero being a social outcast or at least socially inept, and the boss villain is usually beaten by the hero performing a trick they have never done before, or at least did not think they had the power to perform.

FroZticles
08-10-2004, 01:47 AM
Tesa Kasi isn't that martial arts in the Star Wars universe......?

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 10:43 AM
Well Jedi combat is obviously a Martial Art too, but like I said it has to have a bit more than that to qualify as a Martial Art genre. For example, all of the Star Wars movies feature Jedi combat, but the only ones I'd class as mixing with the Martial Arts genre are A New Hope and The Phantom Menace, because the Master dies and the learner has to find a strength inside themselves they didn't know they had to defeat the enemy.

DK_Viceroy
08-10-2004, 11:50 AM
it's a bit of a reverse in the books though it's the master avenging the apprentice then freinds avenging friends. though in star by star there are apprentices avenging their masters by destroying the Voxyn Queen. while they're at it they gain a deeper understanding of the force so that could class as finding skills they didn't know they had. since they try using a new technique to good effect to start off with that also reinforces star by star as martial arts.

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 01:34 PM
No, knowing a new skill at the start or learning it along the way is not like a Martial Arts film. The skill has to be performed only at the end in the final fight with the evil boss, and it has to be a skill they knew existed but didn't believe they could do.

Think of The Matrix as an obvious sci-fi/martial arts hybrid.

DK_Viceroy
08-12-2004, 06:26 AM
as soon as i get my thrawn trilogy books back i'll do the analyis for you and prove how EU and the movies are part of a greater whole.

Admiral Vostok
08-12-2004, 09:34 AM
I eagerly await your failure to do so, thus proving the EU and the Movies are not part of the same whole.

General Nitro
08-12-2004, 12:13 PM
The movies can survive alone. The EU HAS to have the movies. Without the movies, the EU is star trekky trash.

swphreak
08-12-2004, 12:24 PM
Ok, I skimmed these 2 pages, and I still don't see what arguing about film genres has to do with EU vs Movies.

Books and Movies both have their genres.

And I think the EU would survive just fine without the movies. You may think it's trekky trash, but that's your opinion, and opinions are not facts.

Admiral Vostok
08-12-2004, 02:06 PM
Ok, I skimmed these 2 pages, and I still don't see what arguing about film genres has to do with EU vs Movies.You must have skimmed past the part where I commented that Star Wars was created not as a sci-fi, but as almost a study of different film genres. Because EU attempts no sort of genre-hybridity, it is too different from Star Wars the two to be considered a coherent whole.And I think the EU would survive just fine without the movies. You may think it's trekky trash, but that's your opinion, and opinions are not facts. Of course EU would survive without the movies, it's totally separate from the movies. Different style, different purpose, different audience, different medium, different Universe. They are different. This is what I've been trying to say.

FroZticles
08-13-2004, 03:19 AM
Ok we've heard the same EU vs movies stuff for long enough just let it die you will never solve it. I've also created a new group called the Expanded Purists who are more dominate than purists and EU lovers :P

Admiral Vostok
08-14-2004, 08:28 PM
Froz, if you don't like the thread you don't have to read it.

FroZticles
08-14-2004, 09:10 PM
Who said I didn't like it, I'm just saying that you won't solve it.

Plus your purism propaganda is starting to grow stale.....

DK_Viceroy
08-15-2004, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by FroZticles
Plus your purism propaganda is starting to grow stale.....

Definetly

I should have my books back by the end of next week and then i shall prove you wrong vostok.

Admiral Vostok
08-15-2004, 09:13 AM
How exactly is it growing stale? It's not like I need to keep coming up with fresh evidence all the time when my existing evidence still isn't refuted.

DK_Viceroy
08-15-2004, 03:04 PM
Or can't you come up with fresh evidnce a large portion of your existing evidence has been disproved the rest of your evidence is hanging in there by virtue of me having an extremely unreliable mate when it comes to returning things.

FroZticles
08-16-2004, 11:44 AM
Vostok- Evidence to what I still don't know what you are trying to prove? That the movies are superior than EU? Please tell me.....

If it wasn't for EU, Star Wars games would be extremely limited theres only so many types of games you can make based on 6 movies.

DK_Viceroy
08-16-2004, 12:53 PM
Certainly

What i'm trying to prove is that EU is just as Important as the movies not more or less as some poeple think. really people who think that EU is more important than the films is daft of course that works in reverse. They are both parts equal parts of the same whole that is star wars and as such both nessacery and important.

Admiral Vostok
08-16-2004, 02:09 PM
Froz - I am not trying to prove the films are better than the EU. That's a completely subjective opinion and not quantifiable at all. What I am trying to prove is that the EU is not a proper part of the Star Wars Universe - the Universes depicted in the films and in the novels are just too different from each other.If it wasn't for EU, Star Wars games would be extremely limited theres only so many types of games you can make based on 6 movies.The only game based solely on EU is the KOTOR series. Other games are either explicitely linked to the films, or use extensive imagery from the films. Take Jedi Outcast for example; the Imperial Remnant portrayed there, with the exception of the Shadowtroopers and those Force-using guys, shares more in common with the Empire we now from the movies than the Imperial Remnant we read of in the books.

swphreak
08-16-2004, 05:29 PM
This whole discussion is all based on our own opinion, and will never change.

EU fans will believe the EU is part of Star Wars, and some will think it's better.

Some people will only like the movies and not care for the EU, and some denounce it.

I didn't find that quote, but I was thinking of the Boba Fett question.

The Expanded Universe was given approval by George Lucas, wether it was for more money or not. It it Licensed by LucasWhatever. It has Star Wars in big letters in Titles of the books. In my mind, I believe it to be part of Star Wars.

YOU don't have to like it, and I'm not force feeding it to you, but you will most likely not chnage my opinion on the matter, and neither will anyone else.

I most likley will be ignoring this discussion now.

Admiral Vostok
08-16-2004, 11:49 PM
Well I guess you're right Phreak. We'll never agree on what defines Star Wars; I suppose it means different things to different people. The elements that make Star Wars special for me just aren't evident in the books; whereas obviously the thing that makes Star Wars special for you is in the books.

I use the genre-hybridisation argument, because the genre hybridisation is something that defined Star Wars as being different from every other sci-fi that had come before, and is certainly something the books don't have. Yet to you and Viceroy that might not matter; as long as they've got laser-swords and spaceships you seem to be happy with it.

I am also of the opinion that real Star Wars can only truly be created by George Lucas, since it is his creation. And again, since George Lucas has said in the past he doesn't always agree with the direction EU is taken in, I see this as important. Yet you might not; it doesn't matter what happens to the continuity, the characters, the mythology or the story, as long as the familiar Star Wars logo is somewhere on the front cover then that's good enough for you.

I believe all good things must come to an end, and with the release of Episode III, that's exactly what will happen for me. I don't need the EU to keep my interest in Star Wars, it's good enough to survive on it's own in my opinion. I don't need the gaps filled in; all good stories have gaps in them, to burden down a good story with minute, inconsequential details is just not good storytelling.

But that's just what I believe. To each his own.

FroZticles
08-17-2004, 03:03 AM
EU is not just the books, tv specials and games are all apart of it. Outkast is pure EU you cannot justifiy it as close to the movies, just because its close to the Empire. Everything in that game had EU in it hardly anything from the films besides the stormies and jedi.

Admiral Vostok
08-17-2004, 01:28 PM
Well yes, EU is everything except the movies, though the books are the biggest part of that and the medium that generates the most EUFans, so that's why I referred just to the books. But the same goes for all that other stuff too.

DK_Viceroy
08-17-2004, 01:32 PM
I've yet to pin down the exact timescale of where outcast is located but i think it's shoirtly before thrawn and so the Empire of course would be more like the empire. since the rot and decay hadn't yet become terminal and the empire was still an increadibly powerful force.

lukeiamyourdad
08-17-2004, 02:33 PM
Outcast is 8 years after the Battle of Endor.

DK_Viceroy
08-17-2004, 03:32 PM
2 years out isn't bad, but still the empire was still a force to be feared and the situation for the empire was nearing the point on for return but they still could have pulled it out if thrawn had reset his clone sylinder 2 years earlier than when he last did.