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DK_Viceroy
08-01-2004, 03:58 PM
Building Bonuses when grouped ever thought of that

The idea came to mind when i was looking around a mod for generals zero hour called blitzkrieg 2 made at www.derelictstudios.net .

Well anyway it's a WW2 mod and someone mentiojned the ruhr and industry, I asked what the Ruhr was and they said it was an potnetly industrial valley because the industries were clustered. That sounds very similar to the Geonosian droid Foundries. I thought that maybe we could give some unqiue civ bonuses for buildings, Perhaps to the effect of if you clustered production buiuldings together you could get some bonuses from that.

Admiral Vostok
08-01-2004, 06:30 PM
When it comes down to it, the only thing I REALLY want in the next RTS is a more faithful representation of the movies we all know and love.

Bright green Nova Crystals? WTF were they thinking?

PS: Good to have you back Viceroy. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we missed your lack of punctuation. ;)

General Nitro
08-01-2004, 07:12 PM
Conquer the Galaxy! Hutt Cartel Civ. Custom Commanders. Some more cool stuff, but most importantly, Conquer the Galaxy.:atat:

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 07:38 AM
After consulting the relevant gosphels i have come to the conclusion that the Hutt Cartell is viable as a civilisation

but first, I must ask does anyone here play Imperium Galactica 2 If they do they'll know what i'm talking about.

I envisage the Hutt Cartell as something like the Shinari Republic, better at espionage, sabotage and trade while having some unqiue military abilities to shore up a relatively weak military.

Though it kills me to say it Vostoks vision will propably be the best framework since it seems the best out of all the ideas. We could even begin thinking about what the buildings would look like.

Puzzlebox
08-02-2004, 12:03 PM
Ehem, vostoks version pails in comparison to mine, I am getting around to distilling it for pdf. You will agree in time.

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 12:44 PM
Vostok's idea seems to be the best because it's well thought out and has some good ideas importantly it's unique however the main thing is































It's THE ONLY ONE THAT IS ACTUALLY FINISHED.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
It's THE ONLY ONE THAT IS ACTUALLY FINISHED.
:D Thanks for the accolades Viceroy.

DK_Viceroy
08-02-2004, 01:01 PM
You should remeber i always give credit where it's due and after reading it i liked it i only had a slight few problems though since i am now in possesion of a scanner i can no post up schematics of the ships so you can augment your plan with them.

Puzzlebox
08-02-2004, 08:22 PM
Finished????

What he has is about 30 times less than what the game actually is.

Admiral Vostok
08-02-2004, 11:50 PM
Well duh. The game isn't what is finished, it's the design that's finished.

I eagerly await your design.

FroZticles
08-03-2004, 02:04 AM
I liked Vostoks old design adding those crap one liners and a few other things really turned me off it.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 02:58 AM
Of course you eagerly await my design, I'm a genius. :)

Actually now that I have everything thought out I just need to get it all into the word pad and arranged nice and proper so I can get it distilled and give it to someone at Lucas Arts, they will of course adopt and use it.

Doing calculations for building times and such is irritating to say the least, especially since most will need to be changed. Anyway in the end its the same as life in general, they want to do something and make money from it, all things considered most of the people in this situation will want to make a good game because they get paid peanuts and wouldn't be making games if they didn't love it.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 05:45 AM
You can only claim yourself to be a genius when you have more posts than vostok.

For game plan's you don't calculate game times that's being a smart ass and no one likes them.

You sound like windu and vostok when they were talking about theirs ages ago one line i remember


"Award winning Star wars RTS made from the Infamous DarthWindu Plan"


still makes me laugh.

Now i'd love to see you do better pezzy but i doubt you will i suggest instead of wasting your time and coming up with something similar to windu's you join other people in the fourm in coming up with a unified forum game plan based off vostok's.

Darth Windu
08-03-2004, 06:49 AM
Viceroy - I suggest that you get your facts straight before sprouting off. My template is finished, and has been for some time.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 07:06 AM
In case you haven't realised i've only been back on the forum for 2 days, though i do remeber comments people were making about your template containing copied units

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
You can only call yourself a genius when you have more posts than vostok.

For game plan's you don't calculate game times that's being a smart ass and no one likes them.

You sound like windu and vostok when they were talking about theirs ages ago one line i remember


"Award winning Star wars RTS made from the Infamous DarthWindu Plan"


still makes me laugh.

Now i'd love to see you do better pezzy but i doubt you will i suggest instead of wasting your time and coming up with something similar to windu's you join other people in the fourm in coming up with a unified forum game plan based off vostok's.

Actually I can call myself a genius when my I.Q. breaks 200, which it did. I don't see my intelligence relating in any fashion to the number of posts I have made or vice versa.

As for calculating game times, theres nothing wrong with being thorough.

As to windu and vostok gloating, I never saw it I wasn't here, about the one liner, I didn't see anything that would justify saying that but I'll stray from insulting people and you can't compare his or vostoks to mine because you havn't seen mine.

To your last paragraph I have spent time over the past 14 days working on my template and it has surpassed the others since that time, what I am doing now is finishing up a bit of the writing and some of the building times, I imagine I did it that fast because I have had a lot of these ideas for a while and I didn't need a lot of time to think about it.

After I do that I will arrange it in power point or word and distill it in adobe, then perhaps I'll get mauluk to give it to his buddy at LA or I'll find one of their email adresses and send it to them.

The only consideration is Episode three, I am assuming not much will need to be changed except for a few history files and propably a couple of units and a building or two, the campaigns are a given.

Join with the community?

Democracy works for nations not design groups DK, my template will be done relatively soon and presentable shortly there after with considerations to what the engine needs to do and what features and game modes are going in. I have done this for free because I want to play the damn game that I made and I know the one they would make wouldn't be as good. I know this because I am a capable, logical person who understands the variables.

FroZticles
08-03-2004, 08:30 AM
Puzzy I'm sure I can rip apart your template and find many faults as I have with all the others.

DarthMaulUK
08-03-2004, 08:30 AM
Anyway... lets not stray off topic


DMUK

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 09:26 AM
Yes I agree

My idea for the next game is LA uses my template :)

I don't think you could frosty, seriously though we shouldn't keep straying from the topic, time will tell.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 11:16 AM
ON TOPIC: I think multiple pop costs are a given for the next game, most superior RTS games use multiple pop costs to balance things out and make the army compositions a lot more realistic.

OFF TOPIC: Puzzlebox, I'd be interested to know exactly how you are aware of you're IQ, since most official IQ Tests do not reveal your results to you. Surely as the genius you are you are aware of this, so I'm just curious how you know.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 11:51 AM
OnT: Clone Campaigns uses multiple population costs. I don't see why they would stop now.

OffT: pwnt.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Clone Campaigns uses multiple population costs. I don't see why they would stop now.:confused: No they don't. An AT-AT takes up one population the same as a Stormtrooper does.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 12:06 PM
Well i think we can all agree that lucasarts will not use puzzleboxes plan that is about 1 in a million


I think for the next star wars game they should have a leader system like i suggested a while back. Sorta like the ZH generals without the gneral point system and nothing else from ZH but the leader should be selectable ingame like Aom. Propably called commanding officer and each commanding officer would give you some of the normal set of units for that civ and then take away some put more in and give special upgrades.

Also if the purists wanna get their panties in a twist about naming the commanding officer's i'm planning to give suggestions of in film ones

Rebel Aliance

General Jan Dodona

General Antilles

General Skywalker

Imperial Navy

General Maximillian Veers

Admiral Motti { I think that's what the admiral on the death star was called at least }

Darth Vader

Galactic Republic

General Kenobi

General Yoda

General Skywalker { Anakin Of Course }

Speratist

General Grevious

General Poggle

General Taan

Hutt Cartel

Dejadisc Besadaii

Dejadisc Desilijic

Dejadisc Tiure

For the Hutts only 1 of those is from the film and that's tiure Jabba's Dejadisc for the huitt cartell i've changed it so your reporting to a certain Dejadisc Or faction and as you advance through the levels{tech level} They will as all others will transmit technology to help you combat the increased threat

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
ON TOPIC: I think multiple pop costs are a given for the next game, most superior RTS games use multiple pop costs to balance things out and make the army compositions a lot more realistic.

OFF TOPIC: Puzzlebox, I'd be interested to know exactly how you are aware of you're IQ, since most official IQ Tests do not reveal your results to you. Surely as the genius you are you are aware of this, so I'm just curious how you know.

Topic:I agree

Off:Actually I didn't know but we'll leave it at I am not a member of the ignorant rabble that inhabit most of the earth like a bunch of unassuming insignificant drones goose-stepping into a bunch of non-descript ant hills.

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 12:11 PM
Is anybody else tempted to do a windu and make an ignore list?

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Puzzlebox
Off:Actually I didn't know but we'll leave it at I am not a member of the ignorant rabble that inhabit most of the earth like a bunch of unassuming insignificant drones goose-stepping into a bunch of non-descript ant hills.[/B]Then surely you can use your powers of deduction, which such a genius as yourself must obviously possess, to determine that since we are all posting on a forum to make ourselves heard, listing our own opinions and for the most part disagreeing on most things, that no-one else here is an "insignificant drone" or part of an "ignorant rabble" either.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 12:20 PM
.

swphreak
08-03-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
:confused: No they don't. An AT-AT takes up one population the same as a Stormtrooper does.

Actually, the Air Cruiser costs 2 population, but that's the only one.

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Actually, the Air Cruiser costs 2 population, but that's the only one. Okay, technically Clone Campaigns uses multiple pop costs, but obviously I meant a bit more extensive multiple-pop-costing than that of the Air Cruiser.

Viceroy, I missed your post earlier about the Generals. On the whole I'm not very enthusiastic about the idea since it is too much like Zero Hour and AoM. Any suggestions for what bonus each one would get?

DK_Viceroy
08-03-2004, 05:24 PM
OK vostok i'll post the leaders for each here there's only 3 for the moment but we can have more or less and i haven't come up with ideas for all of them yet

Rebel Aliance

General Jan Dodona

General Jan Dodonna Is best at making the best out of a bad situation thanks to skillful deploymenty of the scarce few heavy firepower uits in the alliance with skillfull support of x-wings and b-wings since he iis used to commanding just those aircraft he is reluctant to try and insert the A,B and E wings into his strategy so he doesn't get them. he prefers to preserve his forces only commiting when absoloutly nessacery and relies on superior intelligence to deploy his meager resources

Classification: Intelligence Firepower

General Antilles

Gets Starfighter bonuses all aircraft trained as veterans cheaper faster and in general better

Classifcation: Fighters

General Skywalker

Good at commando tactics X-wings have no targeting Computers but their accuracy ratio is better because of luk's power of the force. Jedi have the special ability to make troops work together better by using force co-ordination. His commandos are also stealthed and are generally better and also gets mounted commandos as well as the ability to enlist the locals.

Classification: Commandos Terrain Advanatages

Imperial Navy

General Maximillian Veers

Gets access to walkers which are trained as veterans gets an Walker Construction facility that would replace the imperial mechanised production factory where walkers are constructed. would get variuos upgrades like Improved Gyros that would allow walkers to move faster and fire while moving. Also gets the stormtrooper commando { snowtrooper inspired } He is unable however to mount effective sieges and relies on fast attacks being very vulnerable to hit and run.

Classification: Walkers Fast Attacks

Admiral Motti

Admiral Motti beleives in Sheer weight of numbers due to the vast untapped resources of manpower in the empire he has developed Enchanced training regimes that allow half trained forces to be employed in the filed with experienced units which completes their training and helps make them a deadly asset. He also uses the same with TIE fighters using swarm after swarm off there swift fighters in an attempt to wear them down. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert

Darth Vader

Gets access to advanced technologies since he is the Emporer's Right hand man he gets access to The TIE Advanced X1 and later the TIE Defender {Very Expensive (for a fighter) but worth it} can train the imperial royal red guard. Gets advanced factories but units have less health and are more likely to defect due to the dark lords treatment of his men. Dark jedi can also have a similar effect to Luke skywalkers jedi except That once the dark jedi is killed the forces it was co-ordinating get lower statistics than before due to over reliance on them. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert


Classification: Advanced Technology And Raw Firepower Dark Jedi

Galactic Republic

General Kenobi

All rocket firing units run out quicker and have a slower rate of fire and reload but slightly greater accuracy his jedi starfighters are equipped with sonic mines after seeing how effectively the late jago fett used his. however his perceptiveness allows him to use uplink ceners to slowly reveal the area around enemy buidlings but this progress halts if power fails and is restarted if infiltrated Gets

CLassification: Siege And Intelligence

General Yoda

All units get greater armour General yoda gets access to the advanced AT-XT prototype and all units will fire faster when injured because of yodas inspirational leadership but unfortunatly General yodas airforce is lacking in equipment due to his preffered aircraft being the gunship and gunship transport. He is however the only general in the game to get jedi masters. Which have a very minor version of luke skywalkers and darth vaders force co-ordination abilities

Classification: Jedi Infantry And Support

General Skywalker { Anakin Of Course }

Gets the upgraded jedi starfighter { clone wars shorts } all units get a shorter line of sight all units move faster and atack faster while they all cost more but build faster. However he does not get access to some of the more advanced upgrades and advanced units but he does get the Torrent class starfighter and gets some technologies other republic generals do not.

Classification: Advanced Fighter Technology And Engineer Officer

Speratist

General Grevious

Not Much is known about General Greviuos so as more details are released about him and after episode 3 is released analyis of his tactics will allow him to be classified. Possibly Droids and their effective application to the field and their upgrades based on his own components.

General Poggle

Poggle being from geonosis gets an almost completly different set of buildings that look like they're from geonosis His production facilities are the most expensive in the game but are underground with only the entrace on the surface and builds units faster quicker and slightly cheaper but only when production foundires are clustered in groups of 3 or more his foundries can also be equipped with multiple exits increasing unit cost by half but allowing another one of that unit for free. he gets the geonosain warrior, Fanblade Fighter sonic cannon and gets a bonus to research however his activities are often very hard to conceal and thus has no stealth capabilities and his Geonosain fighters alothough increadibly effective are more expensive.

Classification: Production And Sonic Technology

General Taan

General Taan a master of training and tactics and especially deception She hails from the Chiss Consortium and can Build Chiss bodyguards to protect sites of great importance. Also due to the fact it was she who stole the decimator designs she can also construct these however due to materials being needed for her decimators units will be less well armed and armoured and sverely damaged units have a chance of blowing up when if attacked. to compensate for this she can disguise her troops when in large groups.

Classification: Ambush Infiltrartion and Decimators

Admiral Vostok
08-03-2004, 09:38 PM
Sorry Viceroy, I'm firmly against the Hutt Cartel's inclusion. The game should be about the huge-scale battles Star Wars is famous for, and the Hutt Cartel just doesn't take part in huge battles. The fight their wars insidiously with single assassins and bounty hunters taking out the heads of competing organisations. So they don't really fit in my mind as a civ.

I have however included them as one of my minor civs.

Your Generals sound okay, but does it say there that Yoda is the only one to get AT-TEs? What's up with that? Every Republic General should have access to the AT-TE, it's a mainstay.

Puzzlebox
08-03-2004, 11:22 PM
The Syndicate

Founded by the criminal overlord Babar the Hutt, the framework of the Syndicate is several thousand years older than the Republic itself. The Syndicate exists in various forms on nearly every planet in the galaxy. Designed to be a decentralized mass of loosely affiliated criminal organizations every effort to eliminate the entity has ended in total failure despite countless attempts by both the Jedi Order and Republican Guard in the years following the formation of the Republic.

The Syndicate reached it's peak under Prince Xizor, whose control of the Black Sun Society and alliance with the Empire allowed him to eliminate a number of his adversaries and centralize the organization. He later found himself at odds with the Emperor and was killed by Darth Vader on board his personal skyhook in the midst of a massive battle above the skies of Coruscant.

Following Xizors death what remained of the Syndicates oligarchs were rounded up and eliminated, it's influence was soon lost on many of the outer rim worlds whose tyrants gave little creedence to the crippled organization.

Like I said, they will use mine.:atat: :lightning

DarthMaulUK
08-04-2004, 12:01 AM
Just a friendly warning to both Viceroy and Puzzlebox.

DMUK

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 12:09 AM
My reply indicated that I did not think most of you were morons, you got this and are just referring to the bickering right?

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 12:12 AM
So Puzzlebox, you're including "The Syndicate" in your design?

Perhaps you should take note of what I said in the other thread about marketability if you really want your design to be the next RTS.

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 12:22 AM
Yes I am including them Vostoc

Towards lessons in marketing I won't go there, the game will be extremely marketable and any grey areas will be handled intelligently.

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 12:27 AM
Well it's good you have so much confidence in yourself, since the rest of us don't ;)

I'm eagerly anticipated the release of this design... when I released mine I did it in stages, releasing the overview first then each civ over a period of time. This way people could comment on each bit as it came up, and not have to comment on the whole lot in one go. Perhaps you could do the same thing?

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 01:06 AM
Your template is a very small amount of work. There isn't that much material at all.

Where are your techs?

I don't want to release all of mine or small pieces of mine to view, it is very good and would make a great game, if LA does nothing with it then I'll give one of you the pdf. I'll be done with everything within the month.

You should make yours more complete, but even if you did if you put the entire thing up they aren't going to make it after yours either because...everything would be up.

FroZticles
08-04-2004, 02:02 AM
We don't post templates and ideas for them to turn it into a game. We post our outline of what we would like to see in the next game.

DarthMaulUK
08-04-2004, 04:50 AM
With the new game under way, i have informed Lucasarts of the ideas floating around from the community and to take a peek.

Whether or not they do, is another matter. They listened last time, but that was when Garry Gaber was involved and he worked extremely hard with the playing community.

DMUK

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 06:32 AM
that's ok even though i'd finally seen a point in the hutt cartell where the generals would get jawa engineers that could salvage wrecks on the battlefiled and when they salvaged enough they could buiold a jury-rigged version of it.

The syndicate is made up comepletly the only thing in there that even exists in EU is Black sun and that dwindled to insignificance starting from just before the battle of Endor.

Which bits of the leader idea do you like most and which bits don't you like if there's anything that would be a problem i could change it.

For yoda i've changed my mind about making the AT-TE just for him instead he could get the AT-XT. He seems to be better at ground force co-ordination than anything else that's why for air he's just getting the gunship and gunship transport.

I invisage the tech evel system to remain but under a different name.

Priority Levels it would fit in under large scale battles with the galaxy being at war. Each sides high command would transmit the designs and advanced research projects each time you increased the priority level due to increased need on the battle filed. It would be done by transmitting VIA an Uplink Center that would require engineers to operate. The cost of upgrading priority levels would be used to upgrade the uplink center to be able to receve the information quickly without it being intercepted by enemis on the battefiled.

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 08:07 AM
You're asking me?

I'll give a few thoughts.

1.Generals need to go, Master Yoda or Luke Skywaler are much better references, I see your point behind the general classifacation but it does more harm than good.

2.Jawa thing would be a real problem unless it went in with the normal working of the game i.e. units stayed there broken down until decaying away, this would be more to process though and if you want it in just for the jawas then it should go.

3.I struggled with the tech thing as well, very annoying.

4.Priority levels or how you have it working would be good for a slower paced game, could be worked with though.-Scratch this, I fully read your thing, good idea, I have something sort of similar in mine, it makes players feel like they are part a larger battle. This was your aim for entire game I believe.

5.The veterans and experience idea again for slower paced games, scenario design gets clotty too, and I really couldn't have that. If you got it implemented well enough into the game a lot of people still wouldn't end up wanting to play with it.

6.Too much classifacations, it's fun to write them in as it is an extention of playing it but if you make the heroes follow that it gets restrictive and intimidating for players, particularly if some of the classifacations don't fully relate to the game.

You could have some sort optional select a commander feature where you selected a hero in the menu and you got the hero for play.

General Veers
--------------------------------------------
-Imperial Walker projects cost 30% less and are completed instantly
-Mechs are created 50% faster and cost half as much
--------------------------------------------
-Construction time for buildings is increased 30%
-Overall resource collection is reduced by 10%
-Defensive structures cost 50% more
-Flight school research times are doubled
--------------------------------------------
Tech Bonus
Advanced Walker Tactics-AT-AT's fire 25% faster
Rapid Deployment-Air and mech transports move 40% faster and have improved armor
--------------------------------------------
Tech Penalty
Tie armor-Tie fighters gain armor
Aerial Tactics-Aircraft fire 25% faster
--------------------------------------------
Probably ipsy but I did it on the fly.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 11:23 AM
Not a bad suggestion for veers though i think we should keep the leader system because i think it also makes the apperance of a grander battle because instead of fighting for what is in essence a faceless group your reporting to a commanding officer with their own quirks strategies prefeernces as well as strengths and weaknessess.

The classifications i put in just to give an overall idea of what they would be geared towards and tried to base it in a way we could all agree on.

For the hero i sort of had a similar idea where you could Summon your commanding officer to the filed to help improve the situation. the cost you would pay would be the cost of ferrying him to the battlefiled in secret and would arrive at the spaceport analogue. While on the field he would greatly increase the regular strengths you would get for fighting under his command but if he/she got killed those bonuses would fall below their original levels for a period of time.

When the commanding officer got killed { he wouldn't really be } he would apear as if on a strecher {Like Dodonna was in the game} and the area around him would be cleaered/strafed and a transport would then land and ferry him away but after a while you could summon him back at double the cost.

Veterancy i think would come in handy because some games turn into long drawn out sloggs that usually takes a very long time for the tie to be broken we maybe could look at how other games do veterancy and then decide on a system that could work.

and yes i meant you too i meant everyone on the forum because if we all agree on one thing that's a start to us all agreeing on other things. our ideas will be taken more seriuosly if we all agree on them and arn't all saying LA will use mine or it won't use fred bloggs idea it's too simple and other things like that.

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 12:11 PM
So Puzzlebox you're saying you aren't going to show us your template at all? Well that is certainly a disappointment. I would have thought someone as intelligent as yourself would see the benefits of comments from people who have been discussing the next Star Wars RTS for about 2 years now.

I thought I'd direct your attention to the last section under the heading "FEEDBACK ON OUR WEBSITE" on this page: http://www.lucasarts.com/contact/

Though I'm sure a genius such as yourself is already fully aware of legal obligations of creative companies when it comes to intellectual property.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 12:18 PM
i'm personally wondering then if they'd be able to take on of our suggestions and use them then?

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 12:25 PM
Well they probably wouldn't. But I didn't write up my design for them, I wrote it up for fun.

Of course I feel inclined to mention I'm a professional software writer, so if anyone at LA likes my work I'd be happy to work for them... :D

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 12:29 PM
though would they be allowed to use them though since some of them are very good ideas.

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 12:51 PM
1.I'm not submitting anything through the normal routes. Thats not my kind of thing.

2.The legal prospects and what will have to be done with certain third parties and licenses will be included in what I give them.

3.I didn't say I wasn't going to let you see it, I said if they do nothing with it you can.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 01:03 PM
arn't you being incredibly over optimistic to the point of blind Hopeefulness why should they pay anyone on this froum for an idea when they can come up with them, themselves without paying anyone.

Certain third parties and liscenes are you out of your mind Lucasarts OWNS the licenses to star wars games and They distribute them you would have no negotiating point they'd think you were tiehr incredibly daft or incredibly arrogant. i would reccomend that you don't do anything like that since it would reflect very badly on this forum.

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 01:09 PM
1.I'm not expecting to get paid I don't need any money. I want them to provide me with some measly entertainment.

2.I am talking about bioware.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 01:14 PM
Ok PLEASE explain all of that in greater detail so i'll at least know your not mad or talking in code

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 01:27 PM
I am not expecting payment. We can leave that there, unless of course you want me to get even more pompous.

As to the Bioware comment it's pretty self explanatory when looked at in the proper context.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 02:02 PM
explain what bioware us for us if you please

Puzzlebox
08-04-2004, 02:40 PM
Here DK
http://www.darwinmag.com/read/040104/legal.html

I made the assumption that bioware was not fully reemed, I *was* not privy to the actual agreements, however its better if LA is holding the leash good and tight.

Irreguardless there shouldn't be too much of a problem either way.

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2004, 04:07 PM
That's fascinating read every word of it but

A what does reemed mean or is that a typo

B what IS bioware you didn't answer that question

and finally

C What leash what are you talking about

Admiral Vostok
08-04-2004, 06:27 PM
Viceroy, just let him be. Don't turn this thread into another flame war like the one about my design. If Puzzlebox believes he can get around the legal concerns of LucasArts when no-one else has, who are we to stand in his way?

Puzzlebox, I still don't understand why we can't review it unless LA rejects it. I still think our opinions may help you, since we have been discussing it for a couple of years now.

Puzzlebox
08-05-2004, 12:28 AM
On topic:Deflection, but space battles would kill it if they tried to implement it I think. It would have to be done either seperately via another engine but I don't see that working out.

Off:Vostoc my thread about your topic was not a flame war, almost every post we presented a number of points and engaged in valid discussion about your ideas.

DK I know that you are not that inept and I think you are trying to goat me.

"explain what bioware us for us if you please"=?

"explain what bioware is for us if you please=This is how it relates to what I'm saying DK"- http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/

As for the leash reference you must know what I mean.

I don't want to keep dragging this out, I said what I wanted to do, egotistical? yes, but we can drop it all ready.

On topic again:Cut-scene editor, Empire Earths was acceptable, too bad the game wasn't.

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 04:15 AM
Maybe you could have a mode where it's just ground and then have space battles for nitro's conqeur the galaxy.

There are many games with both ground and space combat I think the best one is Imperium Galactica 2 and that one is quite old yet it's got some stunning visual effects. considering how effective some engines are I think it could work but maybe you could turn it off. especially since if we want realism. someone with a high enough rank to command a planet's armies { the player } would propably get access to a small fleet to try and intercept the enemy. it may detract from the ground batles at time but like i did over a year ago I still support space battles but not at the expense of gettiong a game idea we all like and agree on.

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 11:53 AM
I don't think the answer to every problem is the ability to "turn it off". All games are different, you can't hope to please everyone by having fundamental features of the game just being turned off. There are some things that should of course be optional, like cheats, but any fundamental gameplay concepts shouldn't be negated with the un-checking of a box.

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 04:06 PM
Well in that case why don't we get to work on a model that would give priority to ground battles but add the space element in and make it useful but not overpowered. which certainly will be challenging since the Empires star destroyers were designed with planatery bombardment in mind.

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 04:22 PM
I used to not be a fan of adding Space Battles, but I'm starting to come around to the idea. However, I think if it were to be included it should only be a minor, very simplified representation of space battles. A space-battle system that is as developed as, say, Homeworld 2's will only compete with the ground-based battles for development, so it is better to develop one to the best of it's abilities (ground battles) while the other one is a simplified version of what it could potentially be were the entire game devoted to it (space battles).

What I mean is, ground battles and space battles both have different requirements, and an attempt to fit both of them into the same game will mean the developers effectively have to make two separate games. If they develop space battles as only a basic extension of the ground battles, it will be far less work and as such far more feasible.

Also, in general the civs have less space-based units available than they do ground-based units, so development of the space battles to the same level of involvement that the ground battles ask for is probably unnecessary.

I've got a few ideas as to how this could work. I might start yet another RTS design to incorporate them...

lukeiamyourdad
08-05-2004, 04:33 PM
If it's that small, what's the point of even having one?

When people want space battles, they want stuff like the Battle of Endor, not a pointless overly simplified skirmish.

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 04:36 PM
who said it was a pointless over simplified skirmish we're only saying that it shouldn't eclipse the ground battles that's all

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 04:37 PM
It won't be small scale, it just won't have as many intricacies as the ground battles. For example, you won't be collecting resources in space, you'll have to collect them on the ground then use them to build stuff in space.

I guess you'll just have to wait until I write up my new idea to see how it will work.

lukeiamyourdad
08-05-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
However, I think if it were to be included it should only be a minor, very simplified representation of space battles


nuff said.

EDIT:It's kind of annoying when you always post at the same time as me Vostok ;)

Alright I'll wait and see but I'm still skeptical and against the idea.

Admiral Vostok
08-05-2004, 04:44 PM
Yes. Even though you seem to have relented, I'll point out that a "minor, very simplified representation" does not imply that it will be small scale skirmishes. It just won't have all the intricacies as a fully developed space battle RTS like Homeworld 2, ie you won't be able to board enemy ships, mine resources in space, have a huge range of different ship types to choose from or set up minefields and such.

DK_Viceroy
08-05-2004, 04:53 PM
Just wopndering though would credits be an excpetion like if you went to a neutral spaceport with a freighter you could get credits that way. or is credits classed as an ASSett or a resource?

Space battles would propabnly revolve more around invading other planets maybe?

Puzzlebox
08-05-2004, 07:39 PM
"Puzzlebox, I still don't understand why we can't review it unless LA rejects it. I still think our opinions may help you, since we have been discussing it for a couple of years now."

"I would have thought someone as intelligent as yourself would see the benefits of comments from people who have been discussing the next Star Wars RTS for about 2 years now."

I doubt it Vostoc, at least to any large degree, but I suppose I owe you something, comment away.


Galactic Empire

Command Base
Hero
Imperial Officer
Probe Droid
Armory
Military Academy
Stormtrooper
Missile Trooper
E-Web Team
Technician
Elite Commando
Flight School
Pilot
Heavy Weapons Factory
AA-MB
AT-PT
AT-ST
AT-AT
Warehouse
Air Base
Tie Fighter
Tie Interceptor
Tie Avenger
Tie Bomber
Tie Transport
ATV Transport
Command Post
Imperial Officer
Probe Droid
Bunker
Barracks
Stormtrooper
Scout
Farm
Animal Shelter
Collection Platform
Research Facility
Housing Unit
Population Complex
Docking Bay
Slave
Bounty Hunter
Freighter
Utility Depot
Utility Droid
Maintenance Droid
Construction Droid
Sub-Station
Large Sub-Station
Portable Generator
Resource Depository
Utility Droid
Bank
Monument
Recon Post
Turbolaser Turret
Reinforced Wall
Laser Turret
Barrier Wall
Gun Platform
Stockade Wall

Name change from laser to gun platform-Vostocs GB2
Name change from power generator to Sub-Station-Vostocs GB2

Admiral Vostok
08-06-2004, 12:35 AM
I suppose you do owe me something since you're using some of my ideas!

It's a start, but since you haven't given any details I'm sure you'll forgive me for making assumptions.

1. The Technician sounds intriguing, what does he do?
2. I notice you've got a buildable Pilot... how do these work? This is one subject we've discussed a fair bit and I think you'd benefit from the conclusions we've come to.
3. I'm curious as to why you've got a TIE Transport and an ATV Transport, both of which are completely made up as far as I know, and you haven't got the Imperial Shuttle.
4. What does the maintenance droid do? Is he just for repairing? If so I think this unit is a bit silly, since most of the time he'll be standing around doing nothing. It would be better if the Maintenance Droid and the Construction Droid were combined.

Those are all my immediate comments. Have you written up an Overview, covering much the same fundamental game mechanics as mine does? For example, how you collect resources, what type of resources their are, unit statistics, tech levels or their equivalent, how population works, unit classifications, etc...

FroZticles
08-06-2004, 04:46 AM
Well I guess we all owe LA since we are using the brand name.

DK_Viceroy
08-06-2004, 06:48 AM
Just thinking abouit starships


would we have Super STar destroyers

would they cost an incredibly large amount

would they require an ongoing sum to keep them running

Would you define what limits we should have for space battles and i'll try and come up with some acceptable framework.

If i remeber rightly the Tie transport is just a bomber with elongated pods with no bombing equipment.

ALso do the coulours you've written them in have any special meaning like what priority level they became availble at or are they for decoratrion

also do you have any plans for units for the space ideas we're coming up with

Darth Windu
08-06-2004, 07:10 AM
Ok, here are my thoughts.

Puzzlebox's template - apart from your massive ego, this template is unworkable. Apart from an extreme lack of information, you use too many EU units while ignoring film units. Also, even I, having ready a great deal of SW EU, have no idea what a 'TIE Transport' or 'AA-MB' are. Following on from this, what use does the TIE Avenger have? This would seem to be covered by the Fighter and Interceptor, and if it replaces them, it alters greatly how the Empire is portrayed in the films.

Viceroy - having added starships to my template, I definately say no. This is because of the huge size and cost, and also because we only ever see one - the Executor. Due to this, this ship does appear in my template, but as Vader's flagship, and therefore a hero vessel.

DK_Viceroy
08-06-2004, 08:08 AM
so maybe it could have abuild unit or be a toybox unit because it would be useful for Battle of Endor renactments.

The AA-MB doesn't exist in star wars the closest i could think of is Anti Air MoBile.

at least we agree they should cost a lot but would they require a maintence charge since they used more enrgy than a small industrialised planet

Puzzlebox
08-06-2004, 10:53 AM
Vostoc-

About "your" ideas, your template came from the community you said so it's more of a compendium of ideas unless most of the ideas were yours. The only things I used from it was to change the gun emplacement which was originally laser emplacement into the gun emplacement and to change power generator to sub-station, so you really can't say that in a defensive manner.

1.Power stations are very taxing on fuel vostoc, technicians lower fuel consumtion when inside them and increase resource output when inside buildings that generate them.

2.I struggled with this one for a while but ended up putting it in, it adds to realism in the manner I have it implemented, as well fighter aircraft and especially bomber aircraft in particular are very powerful in the game and add the proper significance to the unit class.

3.Technician should be blue not orange, pilot should be blue not orange, barrier wall should be heavy wall, laser to gun platform should be laser emplacement to gun platform, Tie transport should be transport, as to the ATV transport I added that for realism because I did not wish to see the dinky Lambda drop a couple of AT-ATs ever. I also neglected to add medical droid in the list.

4.Construction droids are hideously expensive, maintenance droids were something I implemented because they will be relatively cheap and will automatically get out of the depot and repair things in a given radius if a button in the depot is clicked, when there is nothing left to repair they will regarrison.

As to if I've written up an overview, I suppose one could consider that to be a yes, however I did not write anything in a linear fashion and it is streamed everywhere and needs arranged, which I am in the process of doing along with a few other things which I've mentioned all ready. I suppose I could discuss some it but theres a wierd paradigm since you don't have the document and don't know how I intend everything to work, so while it might work because I know how I have it intentioned it might not work in your heads, this wouldn't be a problem if I were going to discuss all of it but oh well.

Dk-

Realistically no, that won't be possible given everything else, for RM anyway, Star Destroyers and the like will be toybox units available via the scenario editor however.

The cost would be large at default but you can edit this if so choose, you may also change the building its created at and the parent civ away from the default if you like.

Yes, the drain on fuel would be significant, but as with the other properties, you can alter the detracting stream.

If you want me to give consideration to space battles from a stand off point of view and try to come up with some ideas if you want, but as I said I don't intend to have them in mine via a set in system that marries well with the game.

I don't know what a TIE transport is DK, I googled it and found out a number of things, Twin Ion Engine-never knew the base for the acronym, found a new disgust for the EU, and I saw a schematic of a TIE transport, I also stupidly failed to capitalize it before.

Mostly decoration, it can facilitate a little logic and was intended to split them up for you but those aren't indications of anything in the game past attacking, not attacking or purposeful in betweens.

I could easily change my mind if I thought it were plausible.

-Windu

I was being nice by not dwelling on your template before windu but if this is what you want.

A.You can't know if my template is workable or not because you haven't seen it and the only lack of information here is that which exists in your head.

B.Index these film units I have ignored based on the information I presented via a numbered list, also, seeing as how I have given such account to the Expanded Universe units at the expense of these film units I am certain you wouldn't mind providing a similarly formatted list entailing which of these units aside from the TIE Avenger are taken from the EU and what should be done with them.

C.The TIE Avenger is a shielded air craft that has a stronger attack against other aircraft than it's counterparts and is equipped with missile launchers for use against buildings and heavy weaponry as well as other aircraft, it is very expensive and is produced slowly however and as such is not meant for widespread use, not to mention it doesn't fly as fast. The TIE Interceptor is considerably cheaper and is capable of flying at excessive speeds making it ideal for strike missions where stealth and evasiveness is desired. The TIE fighter on the other hand is produced more quickly than the other two and is by far the least expensive, it is intended to be used in mass against opposing air forces and exist as the bulk of the Imperial Fleet.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tiefighter/
http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tieinterceptor/
http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tieavenger/

The AA-MB is an Anti-Air Missile Battery and no the fighters do not replace each other so we don't need the stupid if so.

I don't mind Vostoc's criticisms because his template would make for a good game, I just do not believe it would come close to mine. Your template on the other hand is abhorant, the weather effects and the kneeling and laying for bonuses and such would result in an unbridled click fest and is more suited a trench world war two game where you control a handful of brigades and there is no economy, as for your writing, learn some syntax and pray for a miracle.

lukeiamyourdad
08-06-2004, 11:02 AM
Point C- As a huge Tie Fighter fan, I must point out that the Avenger is actually faster then the Interceptor.

Puzzlebox
08-06-2004, 11:07 AM
Not for the game, sorry.

lukeiamyourdad
08-06-2004, 11:08 AM
I hate you.

Puzzlebox
08-06-2004, 11:12 AM
:)

You'll come around.

Admiral Vostok
08-06-2004, 11:37 AM
Or maybe you'll come around, Puzzlebox.

First off the names you've taken specifically were my ideas, but even if my template can wholly be considered as a group effort, which for the most part it is, I would like to think you'd be crediting all of us when you present this design to LucasArts.

Now, responding to your responses:
1. So the only thing a technician does is stay inside a power station? In this case the Technician's ability would be better suited to an upgrade for each Power Station.
2. You still haven't explained exactly how Pilots work. I see one of two options: a) they work exactly the same as Pilots in C&C:Generals, where putting them in vehicles promoted the vehicle, or b) vehicles cannot operate without pilots, requiring you to build both the vehicle and the pilot to get a unit.
3. There's a variant of the Imperial Shuttle called an Imperial Landing Craft that you can see in the Special Edition movies. I think that would be better suited as your AT-AT transporter.
4. Well I don't know that making Construction Droids "hideously expensive" is necessarily a good idea...

And responding to your responses to Windu:
A. Windu, Puzzlebox is right you can't say his design is unworkable from the minute amount of information he has given us.
B. Again Windu, Puzzlebox is right. With the exception of the Imperial Shuttle and Imperial Lander, he's included every Imperial unit from the movies.
C. I'm going to say the TIE Avenger is a bad idea too. As EU, it doesn't necessarily contradict the films, but by including it you'll radically alter the Empire's style of play from what we see in the movies. Imperial Aircraft are not great on their own; they rely on outnumbering their opponents for victory. Think of the swarms of TIE Fighters in the Battle of Endor. Giving the Empire an expensive, tough-to-kill aircraft with a long build time strongly goes against this doctrine of superiority through numbers.

Puzzlebox, even if you don't think my ideas for the game can help you, I think you'll agree my encyclopedic knowledge of the films will.

DK_Viceroy
08-06-2004, 01:13 PM
The engine for The TIE avenger is the same as the one made for the TIE Interceptor. Vostock i can tell you why however the Avenger wasn't in use.

Imperial Admirals did not like the idea of a Hyperdrive Equipped Starfighter Thinking that with that in widespread Service They Wouldn't Be ALlowed to order as many Capitol Ship.

Puzzlebox

ALothough i agree for balance i don't agree with the TIE avenger taking a long time since the empire had practically every shipyard in the galaxy under it's Iron grip it would be able to produce things really fast though i do however understand it's for balance.

I didn't and still don't like the pilot idea for Generals.

Have you thought that the Super Star destroyer would come in useful for battle of Endor maps someone mentioned that in this thread before.

I would advise listening to us we do know what we're talking about i believe vostok has told you 42 times now how long we've all been working on the ideas.

Look at Imperium Galactica II that's a Space RTS with ground elements it shows that it's possible to have a game with soace and ground battles. The reverse will be true A Ground RTS with Space Elements

Puzzlebox
08-06-2004, 05:35 PM
Vostok-

1.The Lambda shuttle is the Imperial Transport. Yes, the Imperial Lander is helpful, if I'm not mistaken this is what GB uses, I am remembering the sound byte.
2.Technicians perform a number of tasks for a civ, examples of this include lowering the power consumption for a given power station, increasing the resource output for a given building (Some resources are collected differently, gas for example is collected through large operations which can hold a number (2) of technicians that will increase output). Technicians cost no population slots when garrisoned. Keep in mind a given player will not have ninety resource buildings all over the map, there are even possibilities here as far as cutting micro that could be implemented, which would fit well with the rest of the game, they do a couple other more specific things too but I don't see a need to blurb about everything.
3.Pilots are garrisoned in the Air Base and are required respectively when dispatching aircraft, if you lose a craft, you lose it's pilot, this induces more accurate risk calculation among the players and makes it much more realistic. Air Bases are capable of building a specific number of aircraft, they cannot build past the aircraft limit for the building, this number varies from civ to civ. When garrisoned pilots and aircraft do not cost population slots.
4.Construction Droids are large mech type units that construct buildings, they are very expensive, they move very slowly and have heavy armor (depending), as well they are costly to fuel supplies when in not garrisoned. Construction Droids can construct buildings relatively fast however and are generally worth the cost, some factions have access to slaves, slaves are far less efficient but are cheap by comparison (they can only build upon a foundation, the building option is not available through them). These droids vary from faction to faction, what I've described here closely relates to the example civ I gave.

I can't argue with your last statement, but if I see an opportunity I'll try :).

DK-Problem with space battles is the scale of the ships and depth, you obviously can't have the player ordering his or her fighters and such under and around a Star Destroyer for example but if you make it too mechanical as in a 2-D click and wait setup or what have you the people are not going to like it.

I am unsure whether or not you are intending to mix space combat with the rest of the game, what I mean is will you be able to have a Star Destroyer in the normal mode? If that is your intention I don't see it working, the Super Star Destroyer even if radically scaled down would take up an enormous part of the screen, I thought about this previously with regards to some sort of zoom, the SSD would be above a certain level and the rest of the map below but then there is the depth thing again, making aircraft free flying rather than just using set elevation flight movement or whatever might not be the brightest idea one has ever come up with.

I said before about one of your ideas or your concepts that I had something sort of similar in my game, I was referring to giving the player a feeling that they are part of a larger conflict, there are a couple of features where this is concerned. Again these are optional, it is set either before the game starts or through a given custom scenario.

Players have the ability to request resources from their respective government, this can be in the form of any of the five resources, (yes five, if you understood how the game works you won't have a single problem with it) these are food, carbon, metal, fuel, and credits. In addition to that they can request troops, not how many or in what configuration but military aid or a less direct form of economic aid consisting of non combat droids and such.

This is linked to taxes, a player generally gains credits through taxes he or she collects (this is the stuff I didn't want to get into) from the populace. First and foremost this is done by building housing units and population complexes (when said buildings are powered they generate significantly more credits, power stations are a considerable drain on fuel therefor players will build closely together so as to make the most of a given station, they will also keep building because they want more money, the same is true in real life, anyway the slight terrain change that develops underneath will give the feel of a developed area that doesn't need to be done through the editor), the more taxes that are collected, the more of an asset you are to your government making you more likely to be the beneficiary of aid whether requested or not. This is a very neat feature with alot more behind it and maybe I'll get into it later.

Another option here is bombardments, again this is linked directly to your tax revenue in as much that the more of an asset you are the more likely you are to recieve aid. I originally had this done by introducing a large shadow on the game map which would attack an area you requested, both players were able to dispatch their fighters which would just go up into the air and disappear from sight, it was possible to destroy the star ship if the defending players air force was large enough, successful or not a portion of your fighters returned when after a period of time, theres more to explaining this properly but that would take a couple more paragraphs. Obviously if the attacked player sent no ships, the players aircraft would have returned in full. I later reduced this though, I had to be realistic. After reduced this feature consists of a request and and response as to when the Star Destroyer/whatever has arrived allowing you to then specify a target, if the opposing civ has a starship there as well one will be destroyed and the other will resume the bombardment (as far as targeting and flexibility are concerned I don't want to get into the minutia).

Darth Windu
08-07-2004, 10:28 AM
Puzzlebox - ah, the game is afoot... :D

A.You can't know if my template is workable or not because you haven't seen it and the only lack of information here is that which exists in your head.

The lack of information is in my head? Thats an...interesting comment, although of course the whole point of my comment was that you havent provided enough information.

B.Index these film units I have ignored based on the information I presented via a numbered list, also, seeing as how I have given such account to the Expanded Universe units at the expense of these film units I am certain you wouldn't mind providing a similarly formatted list entailing which of these units aside from the TIE Avenger are taken from the EU and what should be done with them.

In terms of EU and film units, you have ignored the Lambda Shuttle, Imperial Lander and Speeder Bike. There is also no need for two air transports, or your mythical 'AA-MB'. Actually, I was wondering why you have useless buildings. For example, why have the 'Barracks' (Stormtrooper, Scout) and the 'Military Academy' which also produces the Stormtrooper?

C.The TIE Avenger is a shielded air craft that has a stronger attack against other aircraft than it's counterparts and is equipped with missile launchers for use against buildings and heavy weaponry as well as other aircraft, it is very expensive and is produced slowly however and as such is not meant for widespread use, not to mention it doesn't fly as fast. The TIE Interceptor is considerably cheaper and is capable of flying at excessive speeds making it ideal for strike missions where stealth and evasiveness is desired. The TIE fighter on the other hand is produced more quickly than the other two and is by far the least expensive, it is intended to be used in mass against opposing air forces and exist as the bulk of the Imperial Fleet.

But here you have completely missed the point. The Empire doesnt care about the deaths of its soldiers/pilots, which is why they have expendable TIE Fighters and Interceptors. To give them the Avenger is to alter the dynamics of the Empire and reduce the amount of difference between them and the Rebellion.

I don't mind Vostoc's criticisms because his template would make for a good game, I just do not believe it would come close to mine. Your template on the other hand is abhorant, the weather effects and the kneeling and laying for bonuses and such would result in an unbridled click fest and is more suited a trench world war two game where you control a handful of brigades and there is no economy, as for your writing, learn some syntax and pray for a miracle.

Ah, so weather effects are bad because you arent smart enough to be able to include them? Interesting. Also, where did you get the idea into your head that I included 'kneeling' and 'laying' bonuses? They have never been part of my template. As for no economy, the only reason you have come up with that is because you simply cannot accept that my template is far superior to yours and you can never hope to match its brilliance. Had you actually paid attention, you would have seen that the economy in my template is very important, it's just not as micro-intensive as in other RTS', allowing players to concentrate more on glorious battle.

PS: you want to learn some syntax? How about you learn some humility.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 10:45 AM
I agree with windu on all but one of those points.

The empire did care about some of their pilots since you wouldn't just want to throw away veterans and elite pilots.

like the 181st Tie fighter squadron of elite pilots. Some squadrons got the TIE avenger because they were good pilots perhaps this could work with puzzle's pilot. If the pilot became a veteran then it could pilot the Avenger but the avanger would need a veteran pilot to fly or it's just an expensive paper weight

:D The Humility point all the way:D

I think we should have veterancy in this.

If purists need the film to back it up

The emporer put an entire legion of his "FINEST" troops at endor.

this implies that he put a legion of veterans.

Nuff Said

General Nitro
08-07-2004, 11:00 AM
I don't see how you can put veterans and experience into the game. Not many troops return after a battle. However, if the gameplay is changed a bit, then there is a possibility that it will work.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 11:23 AM
It certainly should be changed so Massing one unit doesn't win you the game since that really only falls in with the confederacy, which was why i gave General Poggle Production bonuses since geonosis was very heavily industrialised in very small areas.

even the Empire didn't throw millions of men into a battle without a strategy The empire seems more about getting as much firepower to one place in as much quantity in as little time as possible with the best strategy possible

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 11:44 AM
I've redone some of the commanders and added a little to Genera Grevoius on what seems will be the mnost logical course but i'm reluctant to speculate but i Do know he will be in ep III so we'll wait till then before i do any great detail about him as a leader.

Remeber Classification is only a rough guide to their speciality if this was put into the game the classification would be taken out it's only a guide for fellow forumites :D


Rebel Aliance

General Jan Dodona

General Jan Dodonna Is best at making the best out of a bad situation thanks to skillful deploymenty of the scarce few heavy firepower uits in the alliance with skillfull support of x-wings and b-wings since he iis used to commanding just those aircraft he is reluctant to try and insert the A,B and E wings into his strategy so he doesn't get them. he prefers to preserve his forces only commiting when absoloutly nessacery and relies on superior intelligence to deploy his meager resources

Classification: Intelligence Firepower

General Antilles

Gets Starfighter bonuses all aircraft trained as veterans cheaper faster and in general better

Classifcation: Fighters

General Skywalker

Good at commando tactics X-wings have no targeting Computers but their accuracy ratio is better because of luk's power of the force. Jedi have the special ability to make troops work together better by using force co-ordination. His commandos are also stealthed and are generally better and also gets mounted commandos as well as the ability to enlist the locals.

Classification: Commandos Terrain Advanatages

Imperial Navy

General Maximillian Veers

Gets access to walkers which are trained as veterans gets an Walker Construction facility that would replace the imperial mechanised production factory where walkers are constructed. would get variuos upgrades like Improved Gyros that would allow walkers to move faster and fire while moving. Also gets the stormtrooper commando { snowtrooper inspired } He is unable however to mount effective sieges and relies on fast attacks being very vulnerable to hit and run.

Classification: Walkers Fast Attacks

Admiral Motti

Admiral Motti beleives in Sheer weight of numbers due to the vast untapped resources of manpower in the empire he has developed Enchanced training regimes that allow half trained forces to be employed in the filed with experienced units which completes their training and helps make them a deadly asset. He also uses the same with TIE fighters using swarm after swarm off there swift fighters in an attempt to wear them down. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert. He gets a slight production bonus which increases slowly the longer the game goes on.

Classification: Numerical Superiority

Darth Vader

Gets access to advanced technologies since he is the Emporer's Right hand man he gets access to The TIE Advanced X1 and later the TIE Defender {Very Expensive (for a fighter) but worth it} can train the imperial royal red guard. Gets advanced factories but units have less health and are more likely to defect due to the dark lords treatment of his men. Dark jedi can also have a similar effect to Luke skywalkers jedi except That once the dark jedi is killed the forces it was co-ordinating get lower statistics than before due to over reliance on them. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert


Classification: Advanced Technology And Raw Firepower Dark Jedi

Galactic Republic

General Kenobi

All rocket firing units run out quicker and have a slower rate of fire and reload but slightly greater accuracy his jedi starfighters are equipped with sonic mines after seeing how effectively the late jago fett used his. however his perceptiveness allows him to use uplink ceners to slowly reveal the area around enemy buidlings but this progress halts if power fails and is restarted if infiltrated Gets

CLassification: Siege And Intelligence

General Yoda

All units get greater armour General yoda gets access to the advanced AT-XT prototype and all units will fire faster when injured because of yodas inspirational leadership but unfortunatly General yodas airforce is lacking in equipment due to his preffered aircraft being the gunship and gunship transport. He is however the only general in the game to get jedi masters. Which have a very minor version of luke skywalkers and darth vaders force co-ordination abilities

Classification: Jedi Infantry And Support

General Skywalker { Anakin Of Course }

Gets the upgraded jedi starfighter { clone wars shorts } all units get a shorter line of sight all units move faster and atack faster while they all cost more but build faster. However he does not get access to some of the more advanced upgrades and advanced units but he does get the Torrent class starfighter and gets some technologies other republic generals do not.

Classification: Advanced Fighter Technology And Engineer Officer

Speratist

General Grevious

Not Much is known about General Greviuos so as more details are released about him and after episode 3 is released analyis of his tactics will allow him to be classified. Possibly Droids and their effective application to the field and their upgrades based on his own components. He also can equip some droids with lightsabres from fallen jedi and hs units get an attack bonus versus them. he heaviuly uses droid piloted units with some notable exceptions.

General Poggle

Poggle being from geonosis gets an almost completly different set of buildings that look like they're from geonosis His production facilities are the most expensive in the game but are underground with only the entrace on the surface and builds units faster quicker and slightly cheaper but only when production foundires are clustered in groups of 3 or more his foundries can also be equipped with multiple exits increasing unit cost by half but allowing another one of that unit for free. he gets the geonosain warrior, Fanblade Fighter sonic cannon and gets a bonus to research however his activities are often very hard to conceal and thus has no stealth capabilities and his Geonosain fighters alothough increadibly effective are more expensive.

Classification: Production And Sonic Technology

General Taan

General Taan a master of training and tactics and especially deception She hails from the Chiss Consortium and can Build Chiss bodyguards to protect sites of great importance. Also due to the fact it was she who stole the decimator designs she can also construct these however due to materials being needed for her decimators units will be less well armed and armoured and sverely damaged units have a chance of blowing up when if attacked. to compensate for this she can disguise her troops when in large groups.

Classification: Ambush Infiltrartion and Decimators

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 11:46 AM
Lets try this, were you attempting to be abrasive in your response to the post where I outlined the faction units?

What do you imagine the scout is Windu...
The transport is the Lambda.

It's kinda obvious why I have the barracks in there, if anyone else is unsure ask.

The Empire does not build expendable fighters because they don't care about their pilots, they build them because they are inexpensive, whether they care or not is secondary.

I hope that you understand that that is not the template Windu, seeing as how you referred to it like it was. Answer my initial question so I know how to respond properly.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 11:52 AM
Puzzlebox that's enough don't be so mean and nasty

DMUK's warned the both of us so don't start on windu, windu has tried to get through to you the need for humility I however give up just don't be nasty to everyone you'll just find yourself the way i did ages ago until i learned to be more flexible.

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 12:03 PM
DK I am not certain whether or not he was being sharp in his response, I need to know or I can't really respond.

*He wasn't actually warning you its better for conflict resolution to not single anyone out so he pulled the next in line as well. I'm certain if there were any problems though he could look past them, it's just a feeling I have:)

We should get back to the semi topic, you and Vostoc said you could be helpful.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 01:37 PM
Let's get back on topic and if anyone has a problem with someone elses template make a topic called Template Flaming or something. This thread is for constructive ideas to make one idea we all agree on not just a forum for some idiot to say theirs is better than evryone elses and that they're all dum dums and a huge argument all about overblown ego's.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 01:45 PM
It's kinda obvious why I have the barracks in there, if anyone else is unsure ask.I'm guessing that it's a cheaper building that lets you build those troops quicker or something. If this is correct perhaps you should take note of how few if any existing RTS games use a similar idea: it just isn't a good for gameplay. Having too many buildings to chose from is not a good thing, especially when each of the civs in the game will have different looking buildings. In the end you should not you have far more buildings than any other RTS has, and that isn't necessarily a good thing.

On the Pilot idea, I had a similar one in my very first draft of a new Star Wars RTS, and it was eventually decided by the community and eventually myself that the idea sucked. Although it was more realistic, it was also infinitely more annoying: having to build two unit to get one to work is just unnecessary clicking. Why click to build a pilot then click to build a TIE Fighter when you could just click to build the TIE Fighter, which if you need a realistic explanation includes the training of the pilot?

I still maintain the TIE Avenger is not a good idea. It really doesn't fit with the style of warfare the Empire uses. The Empire relies on swarms of lesser units backed by a few incredibly tough units. As a small elite unit, the TIE Avenger doesn't really work with this style - it's much more in the vein of the Rebel Alliance.

And I can't see how any overall concept can make me accept five resources, in addition to power and population (which are also essentially resources.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 02:09 PM
Too true which is Why i think you'll like the descriptiuon of Admiral Motti. It is strange of puzzlebox of wanting to get rid of clickfest ideas to come up with the prime culprit. though can we have some new ideas for discussion not just continual arguments over a fialed template. if he wants to show it to LA and make the rest of the forum look like wise men and him a fool so be it.

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 02:47 PM
Lose the idiot references and stop trying my patience, this is an innocent game forum where we are discussing a video game, for our entertainment, we shouldn't fight. Leave it.

Getting back to the game as I should the barracks is cheaper vostoc but it builds units slower, its meant for expansion more than anything else, there is less risk involved in case your enemy hits it.

You never answered me DK, do you intend to have the space battles mixed with the normal play or as a seperate system entirely?

General Nitro
08-07-2004, 02:50 PM
If you ever show up to the forum game puzzlebox, you probably wont have very friendly allies...

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 03:00 PM
Can everyone stop the flaming please! Puzzlebox is trying to discuss his ideas rationally. While I disagree with some of his concepts I'm not calling him names, despite his curious continued misspelling of my name, I'm discussing his decisions in a rational way and trying to show alternate courses of action.

What a week for DMUK to be offline!

Now, back on topic.

I think if you really want to keep the tactical flexibility of the Barracks, Puzzlebox, you could have only the Barracks be buildable but then upgradable to the Military Academy. This is a simple way to allow you to eventually establish more permanent forward bases where you've build Barracks. Also, this cuts down on the clutter of possible buildable buildings that will come up in the Construction Droids menu.

Also, what is your response to my criticism of the Pilot system?

General Nitro
08-07-2004, 03:04 PM
Indeed. The flaming makes it hard to tell what's going on.

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 03:06 PM
I think the pilots should stay, the realism it adds is enough of a counter weight.

About the Barracks and Military Academy I really don't view it as clutter, its better to keep them split, this will enforce the importance of the players starting base for most of the factions, as well they can only actually have one Command Center building, the others are secondary with less options in them.

I keep thinking about the Avenger though, that might actually be bad, if I am intending for it not to be used overly often or as a viable strategy, then why would I add it. Perhaps that can be a toybox unit, as I have the editor it could just be added to their build menu anyway.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 03:13 PM
Because you're relatively new to the forums, Puzzlebox, you're probably unaware of a phrase that was amongst our favourites in reviewing potential Star Wars RTS designs.

GAMEPLAY > REALISM.

Basically what this means that realism is great, until it gets in the way of gameplay. If realism causes gameplay to suffer, gameplay should always win out. Your pilot idea certainly falls into this category; clicking to build two units where before you only had to click once is bad gameplay no matter how you look at it.

Again the fact that no successful RTS games to date have introduced a system whereby you need to build Pilots as well as Aircraft should indicate the idea is not great. Especially when the Empire needs to be able to mass produce TIE Fighters, the necessity for pilots impacts on gameplay in more than just a too-many-clicks way.

Back when I propsed a similar system, I had the added benefit that destroyed aircraft and vehicles would have their Pilots ejected, and if recovered could be used again to pilot new vehicles. Even with that as a bonus aspect, my idea was still ultimately flawed, and since yours doesn't even have a similar bonus, yours is moreso.

General Nitro
08-07-2004, 03:20 PM
This post is sorta astray of the topics currently being discussed, but nonetheless, here are some of my ideas. Some new, some old, some taken from others. Therefore, all of these are not necassarily my own, but I would like to see them in the game.

1. Conquer the Galaxy - Being able to conquer several (and I meanc SEVERAL) civs. There are several tasks to be done in order to win, that way it doesn't become repative. Task would include, capturing cities, defeating armies in a face-off, capturing leaders, destroyers structures, and other creative means of conquering.

2. A massive selection of Civs - All the civs that currently exist plus as many others as possible. The list includes Trandoshans, Hutt Cartel, Mon Calimari, and of course, the controversial Yuuzhan Vong.

3. Rated Multi-Player with its own server - Self-explanitory. I got the rated multi-player from saber.

4. More single player campaigns - Alot more.

5. Commanders - Somethng yall are debating, but I think they'd be cool.

That's it for now. I'm sure I could find several others things I add like to add, but I don't want to ramble.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 03:42 PM
I'll just reiterate my stance on the number of civs since you brought it up Nitro, and since I get the impression Puzzlebox's design includes a relatively large range of civs.

I think at the very most we'll have the same civs we had in Clone Campaigns, even Wookiees since their civ will feature extensively in battle in Episode III.At the very least we'll get the big four (Empire, Rebellion, Republic, Separatists).

The reason for this is that if Lucasarts wants to make a decent RTS at all, each civ will be unique. The most number of completely unique civs we've seen in a successful RTS to date is four - so it's a bit of stretch to even expect the original 8 civs.

If we're expecting a well developed and production-feasible game, I for one won't be expecting such minor civs as Trandoshans and Mon Calamari.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 04:05 PM
I think less civs will actually be better but have the commander system i've envisged { i've even given up getting the chiss in }. We could put other civ units under the command of certian commanders based on relations we know they have with them.

Luke skywalker could get wookie units

General Kenobi could get naboo and gungan units

Darth Vader could get noghirir and trandoshan units

General Taan could get Chiss units

Nitro for your benefit i'll post the commanders up

Rebel Aliance

General Jan Dodona

General Jan Dodonna Is best at making the best out of a bad situation thanks to skillful deploymenty of the scarce few heavy firepower uits in the alliance with skillfull support of x-wings and b-wings since he iis used to commanding just those aircraft he is reluctant to try and insert the A,B and E wings into his strategy so he doesn't get them. he prefers to preserve his forces only commiting when absoloutly nessacery and relies on superior intelligence to deploy his meager resources

Classification: Intelligence Firepower

General Antilles

Gets Starfighter bonuses all aircraft trained as veterans cheaper faster and in general better

Classifcation: Fighters

General Skywalker

Good at commando tactics X-wings have no targeting Computers but their accuracy ratio is better because of luk's power of the force. Jedi have the special ability to make troops work together better by using force co-ordination. His commandos are also stealthed and are generally better and also gets mounted commandos as well as the ability to enlist the locals.

Classification: Commandos Terrain Advanatages

Imperial Navy

General Maximillian Veers

Gets access to walkers which are trained as veterans gets an Walker Construction facility that would replace the imperial mechanised production factory where walkers are constructed. would get variuos upgrades like Improved Gyros that would allow walkers to move faster and fire while moving. Also gets the stormtrooper commando { snowtrooper inspired } He is unable however to mount effective sieges and relies on fast attacks being very vulnerable to hit and run.

Classification: Walkers Fast Attacks

Admiral Motti

Admiral Motti beleives in Sheer weight of numbers due to the vast untapped resources of manpower in the empire he has developed Enchanced training regimes that allow half trained forces to be employed in the filed with experienced units which completes their training and helps make them a deadly asset. He also uses the same with TIE fighters using swarm after swarm off there swift fighters in an attempt to wear them down. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert. He gets a slight production bonus which increases slowly the longer the game goes on.

Classification: Numerical Superiority

Darth Vader

Gets access to advanced technologies since he is the Emporer's Right hand man he gets access to The TIE Advanced X1 and later the TIE Defender {Very Expensive (for a fighter) but worth it} can train the imperial royal red guard. Gets advanced factories but units have less health and are more likely to defect due to the dark lords treatment of his men. Dark jedi can also have a similar effect to Luke skywalkers jedi except That once the dark jedi is killed the forces it was co-ordinating get lower statistics than before due to over reliance on them. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert


Classification: Advanced Technology And Raw Firepower Dark Jedi

Galactic Republic

General Kenobi

All rocket firing units run out quicker and have a slower rate of fire and reload but slightly greater accuracy his jedi starfighters are equipped with sonic mines after seeing how effectively the late jago fett used his. however his perceptiveness allows him to use uplink ceners to slowly reveal the area around enemy buidlings but this progress halts if power fails and is restarted if infiltrated Gets

CLassification: Siege And Intelligence

General Yoda

All units get greater armour General yoda gets access to the advanced AT-XT prototype and all units will fire faster when injured because of yodas inspirational leadership but unfortunatly General yodas airforce is lacking in equipment due to his preffered aircraft being the gunship and gunship transport. He is however the only general in the game to get jedi masters. Which have a very minor version of luke skywalkers and darth vaders force co-ordination abilities

Classification: Jedi Infantry And Support

General Skywalker { Anakin Of Course }

Gets the upgraded jedi starfighter { clone wars shorts } all units get a shorter line of sight all units move faster and atack faster while they all cost more but build faster. However he does not get access to some of the more advanced upgrades and advanced units but he does get the Torrent class starfighter and gets some technologies other republic generals do not.

Classification: Advanced Fighter Technology And Engineer Officer

Speratist

General Grevious

Not Much is known about General Greviuos so as more details are released about him and after episode 3 is released analyis of his tactics will allow him to be classified. Possibly Droids and their effective application to the field and their upgrades based on his own components. He also can equip some droids with lightsabres from fallen jedi and hs units get an attack bonus versus them. he heaviuly uses droid piloted units with some notable exceptions.

General Poggle

Poggle being from geonosis gets an almost completly different set of buildings that look like they're from geonosis His production facilities are the most expensive in the game but are underground with only the entrace on the surface and builds units faster quicker and slightly cheaper but only when production foundires are clustered in groups of 3 or more his foundries can also be equipped with multiple exits increasing unit cost by half but allowing another one of that unit for free. he gets the geonosain warrior, Fanblade Fighter sonic cannon and gets a bonus to research however his activities are often very hard to conceal and thus has no stealth capabilities and his Geonosain fighters alothough increadibly effective are more expensive.

Classification: Production And Sonic Technology

General Taan

General Taan a master of training and tactics and especially deception She hails from the Chiss Consortium and can Build Chiss bodyguards to protect sites of great importance. Also due to the fact it was she who stole the decimator designs she can also construct these however due to materials being needed for her decimators units will be less well armed and armoured and sverely damaged units have a chance of blowing up when if attacked. to compensate for this she can disguise her troops when in large groups.

Classification: Ambush Infiltrartion and Decimators

General Nitro
08-07-2004, 04:08 PM
Why is Luke Skywalker leading Wookiee units?

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 04:13 PM
Because han marries leia and that makes Luke part of chewbaccas honour family. also because he's the only alliance leader { in the template }who knows a wookie well.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 04:42 PM
I'm not really a fan of a Commander system like that, on the whole it's far too similar to the Generals in Zero Hour.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 04:47 PM
You liked it earlier. The classification is just so forumites know what they're side leans towards but they hjave abilities to use other startegies.


This is superior to anything EA could possibly hope to create so don't compare Mud to a jewel

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by General Nitro
If you ever show up to the forum game puzzlebox, you probably wont have very friendly allies...

Thats quite alright Nitro I stopped trying to get the blood off of the dagger a while ago;)

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 06:02 PM
You liked it earlier.Well if I did I've changed my mind now.This is superior to anything EA could possibly hope to create so don't compare Mud to a jewelHave you played Generals: Zero Hour? Because what you're suggesting is exactly what they have. Even if it was implemented more successfully than the rather unbalanced way they have things, it's still the exact same concept.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 06:12 PM
I think something was lost in the translation

EA turns ANY good idea into a dirt clod this would be a jewel namely because EA wouldn't be involved {thank god} and yes i do have zero hour i now use it as a firisbee since that's more fun. Zero hour doesnb't have what star wars has. There are very few original game system ideas floating arounf out there if at all.

Admiral Vostok
08-07-2004, 06:23 PM
Still I think there's plenty of scope for new ideas rather than just using the Zero Hour idea and doing it better than EA. At least a reinterpretation of it like this:

Each faction has three Commanders, each with a different speciality. Throughout the course of a game, if you meet certain criteria you will be given access to one of the three Commanders. After completing further criteria, you can employ a second Commander. However, you can't employ the third one, you only get access to two of the possible three at most.

It's similar to both Zero Hour and AoM, but different enough to not be a complete copy.

DK_Viceroy
08-07-2004, 07:01 PM
Perhaps though i thought in any army you reported to only oner Commanding officer especially since comining some would be a little overpowered however individually they're better.

Why don't you like the idea anymore and o daft reason like it copies ZH

Puzzlebox
08-07-2004, 10:06 PM
"I'll just reiterate my stance on the number of civs since you brought it up Nitro, and since I get the impression Puzzlebox's design includes a relatively large range of civs."

Just five Vostok, but one would imagine an expansion would be seen if for no other reason than money.

Conquer the Galaxy-DK, when you talk about space battles are you talking about mincing them with the normal game or not?

It also may get too repetitive, unless you planned on adding a lot of secondary civs and such.

Darth Windu
08-08-2004, 12:12 AM
Puzzlebox - my reply to your post was not meant to seem aggressive or anything of the sort.

Viceroy - but with the Avenger, they never existed in the films, and that is why most people would buy the game. To me, the Empire's signature units are expendable fighters and heavy Mech's.

As for the Generals idea, as you all may know i have a general for each civ throughout the single-player game. However i have also gone back to giving each civ three MP generals with various bonuses and whatnot, but unlike Zero Hour they do not lose any weapons, although a UU for each is being considered.

Also, I have decided to use Vostok's Republic Dropship Worker concept, although slightly different from how he has it, but this means i need another Republic unit - any ideas?

Puzzlebox
08-08-2004, 12:47 AM
Apparently your template is downloaded as SWGB2.doc
I remember having multiple download boxes up at the time I downloaded yours and I wouldn't imagine it to be very difficult to guess what happened seeing as how "Windu's Template" isn't Windu's Template, your actual doc errors and is only accessible through quick view. Swgb2gp.doc was headed as yours.

Now I'm sure I've insulted someone else by listing their template as the one I berated but oh well, after reading this thinking it was yours Windu I assigned to you the attributes of an idiot and have thought of you that way since I read it, from that perspective I could only view your response to me as hostile because morons don't have proper usage and lack descriptive capabilities. Well my system has some kinks I suppose, not that I group absolutely everybody.

I haven't gotten through your template yet because my quick view is semi retarded, but I will read it all soon. You did remark stupidly once however, the template in your mind can't be unworkable because you have not fully seen it, that is just a sample I pulled to give Vostoc a bone to see if he could actually be of any help.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 02:11 AM
Viceroy - the fact it copies Zero Hour is not a "daft" reason at all, and is one of the biggest reasons I no longer like the concept. The biggest criticism of SWGB was that it was too similar to Age of Kings, so if the next Star Wars RTS copies another popular RTS again people are going to be even less approving of it.

Windu - I don't know how you maintain balance if they gain stuff but don't lose any units.

Puzzlebox - hopefully my response to the "bone" you threw me has proven the worth of community opinion on your ideas, since we've most likely undertaken heavy discussion on many of the fundamental concepts for a new Star Wars RTS.

Can I ask straight out what your five civs are to get any criticism I have of the choices you've made out of the way before you go ahead and work out the entirity of each civ?

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 05:32 AM
Yes but remeber this will be different in terms of the Tech level rerplacement i've came up with the Priority Level System.

one thing on that though how many should we have and how should we number them ex. 1-5 or 5-1

and since you would be choosing it in game that's also another fundamental differnce.

Vostok i thoucght about your idea and maybe you could pick your commanding officers second in command and depending on which preimary you chose decides what bonuses you get from the secondary to rpevent imbalances or overpowering

this perhaps is better.

also vostok in case you remeber i was pushing for this system {albeit in a more complicated form} before i went missing so it's hardly a copy of Zero hour just me resserecting a good idea and EA having since used it.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 11:43 AM
There you go! The second-in-command idea is great and really makes it quite different from Zero Hour.

It doesn't matter if you thought of it before EA, they put it in a game before you, so putting it in a game now will still look like a rip off even if you thought of it first.

As for Tech Levels (or Priority Levels, whatever) I think five is a bit too much. Three or four is decent. I have no opinion on which way the numbering system should go.

General Nitro
08-08-2004, 11:57 AM
I think you should start with 1 and go up from there.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 12:19 PM
5 was an example

i thought abot reverse nbumbering because 1 could be the highest priority and say 5 the lowest.

Puzzlebox I envision having maps that have space battles and maps that don't but normally there would be space elements.

Windu are you forgetting Vader's tie The TIE Advanced X/1 or the TIE Avenger. The general idea is similar to that except i'm putting in more than one unique unit to encourage diversity in an already diverse idea NO generic units at all yeah civs may get similar units but not identical.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 12:36 PM
Viceroy, including the TIE Avenger will make the Empire's play style notably different from what we see in the movies, and that is why it is bad. Some EU fits in with the movie style, like AT-PTs, some does not, like TIE Avengers.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 12:39 PM
I was just sayig it was in the movies i wasn't saying it would be in the game. Maybe darth Vader might get them since he piloted the prototype but it would be more feasible to make TIE fighters and Interceptors

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 12:45 PM
TIE Avengers are not in the movies.

At this point I'd like to repost Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units and Star-Warsy-ness to show exactly how the TIE Avenger doesn't fit, and also for Puzzlebox's benefit to help him make a game with the proper StarWarsy feel.

1. The Non-Canon Unit shall not replace or at least do-as-well-as a Canon Unit at a given task.

2. It is possible for the Non-Canon Unit to exist as we did not see a type of warfare it excels at in the movies.

3. The Non-Canon Unit shall not have some amazing ability that just about every army would have if they existed.

The TIE Avenger violates the First and Second Laws.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 12:49 PM
Since you are a purist and therefore Despise EU you thereeoifre under estimate it. Do you actually know what the avenger was. The TIE Advanced X-1 is in the movies vaders trie in casde your forgetting. ah put your a purist of course you klnow you merely forget Putists to be considered lords of purism must know the film inside out and back to front.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 01:08 PM
Vader's TIE is not the TIE Avenger. The TIE Avenger was mass produced for normal TIE Fighter Pilots to compete with the superior X-Wings and A-Wings of the Rebel Alliance. Vader's TIE is just better because it's for Vader and not the common TIE Fighter Pilot.

Even if Vader's TIE was a prototype for the TIE Avenger, the main thing I'm disputing is TIE Avengers being used in force, not the fact that the most important guy in the Imperial Forces has a better Fighter.

And I'll tell you again: A Star Wars Purist does not necessarily know the films inside out and back to front. A Star Wars Scholar does. Don't assume they are one and the same thing. I just happen to be both, which may be confusing you.

General Nitro
08-08-2004, 01:29 PM
TIE Avenger = No
TIE Fighters, Bombers, and possibly Interceptors = :D

Puzzlebox
08-08-2004, 01:52 PM
I have the Avenger as a scenario editor unit, if people want it they have it by allowing Empire to build through there, but seeing as how it was not my intention for it to be used.... I wanted it to be buildable but have no one build it. Yes Thats what I said:)

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 02:49 PM
Your getting the TIE Avenger Getting Mixed Up With the Far Superior TIE Defender. though you are right even though Pilots prefered the Avenger they got the Interceptor. and only pilots with proven experince with the AVenger got the Defender because at the time of the balle of endor they had just entered mass production and were rare but after the emporer's death the orders were never completed and the empire only started to use them at the time Bastion was attacked by the yuuzhan vong and by the time of their Defeat almost all interceptors had been replaced.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 03:27 PM
At any rate, including either the TIE Avenger or TIE Defender, portrayed as they are in the EU, will seriously alter the Empire's style of play from what we see in the movies.

Which is bad.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 03:51 PM
I only have one imperila general who has access to those and that's Darth vader his speciality is advanced technology and since he's the most important it makes sense he would get the best fighters.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 04:06 PM
Well sure that logic makes sense. But if that is the case why didn't he have the best fighters at the Battle of Yavin or the Battle of Endor, or even trying to locate the Millennium Falcon after the Battle of Hoth for that matter?

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 04:58 PM
One thing nothing is clear about is what Darth Vader was actually doing at Yavin or on the death star for that matter. Remeber the TIE Advanced x-1 was the prototype and was tested at yavin and thus it was the best at the time.

He got the FIRST EVER super star destroyer that's certainly seems like the best to me. and do you know how many fighters it would take to equip that thing it doesn't show that much detail of all the starfighters in the escape from hoth so we cannot say but logic stands tht he would have had some avengers but if i rember rightly they wern't as maouevrable as an interceptor. So that may be why6 we didn't see any because vader may not have wanted to waste expensive equipemtn when interceptors were so much cheaper. cheilds won't protectt you if you run itno an asteroid. also the fighters at bespin were merely decoys to make them think they were seroius but if vader had wanted to destroy the falcon he would merely have had to order the ship to open up with main batteries.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 05:10 PM
There weren't any Interceptors in Empire Strikes Back in the asteroid field, only Fighters and Bombers. In fact there weren't any Interceptors in ESB at all, which probably means they weren't in use then (since Vader would obviously have deployed Interceptors to chase the Falcon before it entered the Asteroid Field).

You claim that Avengers were in use before the Battle of Endor. If that is the case why aren't there any in the Battle of Endor?

Oh and as far as I'm concerned, Vader got the ONLY ever Super Star Destroyer ;)

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 05:13 PM
Simple they were being phased out in favour of the superior TIE Defender and do we really see loads of footage of the starfighter battles. If you check some of the literature it does state that there were several squadrons of both avengers and defenders but due to my meager collection at present i cannot find a viable quote becaue all my collection dates at least 5 years after endor.

Admiral Vostok
08-08-2004, 05:41 PM
do we really see loads of footage of the starfighter battlesYes we do, when was the last time you saw Return of the Jedi?

Surely in all the shots of the largest space battle in the Civil War we would have seen at least one Avenger, even if they were being phased out, or one Defender, even if they were being phased in.

But we don't. Why? Because they're only EU, and as such not continuous with Star Wars.

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 05:49 PM
I do not relish the exhaustive scanning process but i have another factfile entry to upload shortly. and after re-reading it I have found a slight mistake in my memory since the Avenger was used as a trainer with very few only seeing combat service under Darth vader but only under him

DK_Viceroy
08-08-2004, 06:12 PM
http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/images2

it even gives a price for the TIE defender and TIE fighter it's a simple question of math


300,000 credits divided by 5 gives you the price of a TIE fighter

or in other words 60,000 for a TIE Fighter

lukeiamyourdad
08-08-2004, 08:01 PM
EU contradicts itself.

You claim the Avenger is actually less effective then the Interceptor, less maneuvrable and slower while that is untrue. It should be the opposite.

As for the Defender in the Battle of Endor, it's thoroughly impossible. Shortly after Admiral Zaarin betrayed the Empire, the Defender was removed from service in the Imperial, the last ships being safely transported to Coruscant. The only ones still in use were under Zaarin's command and the ones captured by pirates.

Defenders never saw Endor.

Darth Windu
08-09-2004, 05:44 AM
Viceroy - the whole point of the Avenger and Defender being EU is that they didn't appear in the films.

Vostok - with the Generals, each player mst choose a General for MP, so there isnt any unbalancing. The reason i dont like removing units, like in ZH, is because i find it unrealistic. For example, even though Admiral Piett is an Aircraft General, I can still see him using AT-AT's. I was, however, thinking of offsetting advantages. Again using Piett as an example, he gains aircraft speed, build time, cost, firepower and armour increases, while suffering decreases in the same areas for mechs.

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 06:35 AM
I only said it was less manoueerable not less effective. and there was

Colonel Maarek Stele and Lord Darth Vader figured prominently in early TIE defender missions to stop Zaarin. Only a handful of these ships were deployed as part of Onyx Squadron during the Battle of Endor.

and that is from the starwars.com data bank itself and we didn't see all of the battle of endor remeber the film focused mainly on endor's moon and the second death star there was quite a bit of the battle but certainly by no means all of it.

General Nitro
08-09-2004, 09:55 AM
I say don not include the TIE Avenger and the TIE Defender because you already have the the TIE Fighter and TIE Bomber. If you did include the Avenger and Defender in the game, then you should explain the unit and where in the EU it comes from in the databank included on the game. All EU should be explained in the databank and include where in the EU they came from. The main reason for this is that not everyone knows hat much about the EU although it is very cool.

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 10:15 AM
I'm giving the Defender to Dartn Vader as a general unit but maybe if there was a campaign for each general he could get Avenger re-infrocements.

Just had an idea

if you had Darth Vader and Admiral motti with vader as primary and motti as secondary commadning officers you'd get the avenger or maybe that could be the defender.

anyway the point is if you combine generals you could get a few more unique units depending on the combo.

Admiral Vostok
08-09-2004, 12:52 PM
Colonel Maarek Stele and Lord Darth Vader figured prominently in early TIE defender missions to stop Zaarin. Only a handful of these ships were deployed as part of Onyx Squadron during the Battle of Endor.Yeah, there were also Dreadnoughts around the back somewhere, plus a whole heap of Interdictor Cruisers and Assault Gunboats, and just in case the worst happened there was a backup Death Star.

We just didn't see them in the extensive footage of the space battle.

:rolleyes:

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 12:58 PM
Why would they need an interdictor cruiser the Death star both 1 and 2 were home to an extremely powerful experimental Interdiction device. Oynx Squadron was there however the only squadron of TIE defenders. you'd hardly be able to see one squadron amongst thousands. I shall however look through the endor scenes and at least try to locate it's silouete. I shall know it when i see it.

Admiral Vostok
08-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Let me save you the trouble and tell you there is definitely not any Defenders in the movie. If you do manage to see one I'll relinquish my title of Star Wars Scholar and become a Star Trek fan. The reason the EU has said there was only a single squadron is exactly because you don't see any, and including any more than a single squadron would be way too much of a stretch of the imagination.

DK_Viceroy
08-09-2004, 02:56 PM
Nothing said their might not be a sliheoeuete or even an unidentified blur. considering since defenders were faster than a-wings that might be the case

Admiral Vostok
08-09-2004, 06:14 PM
Yep, that's right. Lucasfilm went to all the trouble of building models of the Defenders to put them in Return of the Jedi so that they just appear as a blur in the final edit :rolleyes:

I can't believe an EU author would have the gall to make them faster than A-Wings. Where do these hacks get off? They just shouldn't try to out-do the movies, it just ends up stupid.

lukeiamyourdad
08-09-2004, 11:15 PM
Wasn't the Defender's first appearance in Tie Fighter?

Then it would make sense to make it faster then the A-wing.

Why would they need an interdictor cruiser the Death star both 1 and 2 were home to an extremely powerful experimental Interdiction device.

And that's why they needed the Imperial fleet the cut off the Rebels if they tried to escaped but hey, they could have used the Interdiction device and tractor beams. Damn they're stupid.

FroZticles
08-10-2004, 02:17 AM
Imperial ships should be faster they are a military force and the rebels are a band of terrorists who should have been wiped from the face of the galaxy. :D

DK_Viceroy
08-10-2004, 09:53 AM
Very simple vostok

define the Acronym TIE in reference to the TIE Defender and then use some logic comparing number of engines. the answer is not only logical but painfully obviuos.

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 12:03 PM
define the Acronym TIE in reference to the TIE Defender and then use some logic comparing number of engines. the answer is not only logical but painfully obviuos.No problem.

TIE stands for Twin Ion Engine. The TIE Defender has a Twin Ion Engine just the same as a TIE Fighter has a Twin Ion Engine.

The TIE Fighter is slower than the A-Wing. Since the TIE Defender not only has the exact same engine as the TIE Fighter (due to having the same TIE acronym) plus the Defender has the added power drain of employing shields, we can only assume the Defender is also slower than the A-Wing.

Wow you're right, the logic was painfully obvious...

DK_Viceroy
08-10-2004, 12:38 PM
I had a feeling you didn't know.

Triple Ion Engines it even says it in that databank entry i posted. it also say that the engines are a compltly redesigned vesion of the TIE Interceptor which means that since it has three very fast engines opposed to the a-wings 2 means that even with the sheilds and extra armnament it still has a significant speed advantage over the a-wing.

ALso it has three sets of solar panels that have a greater surface area which balances out the power drain off sheilds extra weapons and hyperdrive.

and the acronym is slightly wrong you forgot the s off the end of engine.

Twin Ion Engines meaning there are 2 engines in a TIE.

it's a common misconception that a TIE has only one engine when it heas at least two.

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 02:23 PM
Now that has got to be one of the most stupid things EU has ever claimed.

As if any organisation would use the same acronym for two different things.

Man I'd like to beat those EU guys with an intelligence stick. I can just see the design meeting now:

"Hey fellow EU guy, what should I call this new aircraft that is the best in the galaxy, especially compared to the other mediocre aircraft of the Empire?"
"Well it has Triple Ion Engines, so let's give it the acronym TIE."
"Well we've already got TIE as an acronym for Twin Ion Engines, but you're right, we can just throw the whole purpose of the acronym system to the wind."
"High five!"

lukeiamyourdad
08-10-2004, 02:27 PM
Can we stop this discussion? It's utterly pointless. You're all talking as if these were all actual facts when they're nothing but fiction.

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 02:29 PM
You're right Luke's Dad... I'd be happy to continue this debate in the EU thread, Viceroy. :D

Nairb Notneb
08-10-2004, 02:53 PM
Can you guys stay on topic

General Nitro
08-10-2004, 03:09 PM
You're fairly new, so I'll explain it to you. It is not remotely possible for a thread to stay on topic. For as long as I've been here, I've never seen a thread that didn't stray off-topic. Some very good ideas come from these off-topic discussions.

DK_Viceroy
08-10-2004, 03:48 PM
Also this off topic bit is actually on topic without being on topic.

because i suggested that Darth vader as a commanding officer in SWGB2 get access to the TIE defender and these the unenlightened masses dispute what is a forgone conclusion in some vain attempt to convince me yet again that EU and STar wars are not the same.:p

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 04:42 PM
Yet Viecroy is still unable to prove this "foregone conclusion", and seems to have missed my ridicule of his Triple Ion Engines theory.

DK_Viceroy
08-10-2004, 05:18 PM
I said TIE in refernce to the Defender it's like certain words you could call someone a retard and it would be an insult and you could call someone else a retard and it could be stark fact. I beleive there are some acronyms that have the same letters but different words and meanings.

As always i have proved my point but certain individuals never accept fact. what will rear it's head next i wonder.

Admiral Vostok
08-10-2004, 10:27 PM
You will never find the same acronym in use in the same context meaning two completely different things.

Never.

Ever.

General Nitro
08-10-2004, 10:38 PM
We must lol with lol, lol.

Translated: We must Love our Lord with Lots of Love, Laugh out Loud.

Man that was lame...

FroZticles
08-11-2004, 02:14 AM
I like EU it keeps LA games from going out of business :P

DK_Viceroy
08-11-2004, 11:32 AM
Despire that Display Of Mental agility he's got a point the pair of them.

BTW vostok i was just on MSN and a mate of mine on Imperial Assault called Chiss_Alert asked me why you denounced that mod, and yes he is the guy who helped inspire half the unit ideas i came up with for the chiss yonks ago.

Admiral Vostok
08-11-2004, 01:31 PM
Well this is going off-topic, but the thread was already off topic anyway...

I don't remember anyone called Chiss_Alert when I was working on the mod, but I denounced it because there were just way too many things wrong with it, and while the Mod Leader agreed with me, his two second-in-commands didn't so he was ultimately powerless to avert disaster. He was a good guy too, I feel sorry for him after all the work he's put in...

I'll list below just some of the problems. Feel free to forward it to your friend, though I fear it is way too late now.

1. The Generals Engine is a dream for modders; it's so easy to change every single aspect of the game. Yet despite the capability to change things, the team seemed intent on just making what is essentially a skin for Generals. The gameplay would be exactly the same, all the way down to where discussions would be along the lines of "who should get something like the USA Strategy Center?"

2. Another great part of the Generals Engine is the Zero-Hour-style Generals sub-factions. I saw enormous potential here: the basic "vanilla" faction could operate exactly like the movies, making a faithful recreation possible, while each General would add EU units, making the EUFans happy. But this wasn't enough for some people. EU units ran amok, so that not only was the play styles of the faction hugely different from the movies, but there were also far too many units.

3. The designers of Imperial Assault must have had very little experience with decent RTS games, and failed to understand that Gameplay > Realism. Whereas in most RTS games, units would have at most two different types of attacks, Imperial Assault had units with four or even more different types of attacks. This was because the designers tried to make the units as much like the source material as possible. If they had have just followed the movies, things would be okay, but they had to incorporate all sorts of EU so that something stupid like the E-Wing would have two different types of laser and three different types of missiles. This makes gameplay not only harder to balance, but the fact is why buy a range of units when this one uber-unit does everything?

4. As a direct result of the previous two points, too many units and too many modes of attack led to hideous doubling up of units, rendering some units completely obsolete and pointless. What was even worse was when these obsolete units were in fact movie units: why would anyone buy a TIE Fighter when any one of the host of EU TIEs do the job far better for only a little extra cost?

5. In the end though, all of the problems listed above and coutless more are a direct result of the fact that mods are for the most part just made by fanboys, whose inability to realise what makes a fun game is matched only by their tunnel vision and inability to admit when they're wrong. While most of my arguments on the discussion forums were agreed with by the majority of posters, those in charge would come back with "too bad it's designed already we're not going to change it".

The saddest part about Imperial Assault is that it had real potential, but now it's just craptacular like most of the other total conversion mods out there.

Mr. Painless
08-11-2004, 08:21 PM
Lmao, his 2 second in commands screwed this over? Its too bad you left vostok. Your knowledge was great. Too bad you think that one EU thing in a mod screws it all over. The reason we added EU stuff is because the things that were in the movies just werent enough.

Edit: All units on IA only have a maximum of 2 weapons. People post up ideas for like 3 or more but we limit them at 2.

I suggest that everyone at least come and check us out at www.planetcnc.com/imperialassault (www.planetcnc.com/imperialassault/)

Edan
08-11-2004, 08:43 PM
Hi, my name is Edan, leader of Impeiral Assault.

Vostok, if I remember correctly, the conflicts we had dealt with EU vs. staying with the films. There wasn't anything going on with "people under me making decisions for me"-- you guys just had discussions on the forums. What happens to the actual mod is up to me, and I don't remember ever making those types of decisions between your ideas and others made by those underneath me.

In addition, I suggest you don't judge our mod until you play it. When beta comes, I'd be more than happy for you to be a beta tester and give your feedback because I really do think your point-of-view and knowledge about Star Wars will be very helpful to this mod.

We want to make this the mod that you guys (the Star Wars community) want, and we want you guys to help us make it that way! Help us out, tell us what you want changed, and we'll respond in the best manner possible.

Admiral Vostok
08-11-2004, 10:32 PM
Hey Edan, didn't expect you to pop up here. I really do admire what you're trying to do, and I'm glad you value my opinion, but too many others high up in the ranks of IA don't.

As you may remember, after a discussion I had with you, you posted a rather important thread on the forums requesting a bit of a step-back and look at where the mod was going. I applauded the move, and outlined how I saw the design of the mod could be changed slightly so that not only would gameplay be improved because there wasn't so much doubling up and over-complication of unit abilities, but that we could also use the Zero Hour Generals system as a way to include the more far-out EU concepts without ruining the imagery from the movies.

Many people instantly dismissed my ideas as EU-bashing, and while I won't deny I am usually an EU basher, in this particular case I was not. I was thinking of a way to include all the EU people wanted, but relegating it to one of the three different Generals, while the "vanilla" faction would play just like the movies. Again, I should stress that the vanilla factions would still include EU units, just not those units which contradicted the play style and imagery of the faction in question.

For example, the Empire was the faction I had the most problems with because units like Shadowtroopers, Dark Troopers, Juggernauts and TIE Defenders were all being included in the vanilla faction. Their inclusion would force the Empire to be played in a totally different style to the movies, but I proposed they could still be included in the game without contradicting the movies by making them only available to certain Generals. Of course the only problem I can see with this is that we weren't planning to implement the different Generals right away, so I guess the biggest concern of EUFans would be that they wouldn't get to use Shadowtroopers straight away.

I'll gladly be a beta tester, I'd love to in fact, but if my opinion didn't count for much back them I'm sure it will count for even less now.

Just one more comment on the last part of your post:
We want to make this the mod that you guys (the Star Wars community) want, and we want you guys to help us make it that way!I'd like to believe that, and I truly believe that's what you want, Edan, but my experience was different. Relating back to point number 1 in my list above, there was an incident on the forums where someone was trying to work out a way to fit in some element from the C&C games. I can't remember exactly, but it possibly related to a desire to include Engineers like the ones from the classic C&C games. I was against it, because the Engineers as they existed don't really fit in with Star Wars at all. I also commented that there was probably a good reason for why Engineers were left out of the latest C&C game. The responses I got back horrified me: nearly everyone that responded said they didn't care about Star Wars, they were making the mod for C&C fans! Obviously, this isn't the way you think, Edan, but the fact that a fair amount of people - possibly even a majority - think this way is not comforting.

EDIT: In response to Mr Painless' post, I resent you saying that I believe the inclusion of an EU unit will ruin it. That is not what I am saying, and is certainly far from what I was suggesting during my time with IA. I see now in hindsight that this was my biggest problem; since I was a Purist, EUFans instantly disregarded what I had to say as being Anti-EU. That was not the case at all. The way I was suggesting things would have catered to EU Fans and Purists alike. And before anyone suggests EU would be minimised, keep in mind three Generals for each faction would use a host of EU units, so that's three times more EU factions than Purist factions! It just would have been nice if people could have looked past my opinions of EU and looked at what I was actually suggesting.

Mr. Painless
08-11-2004, 10:44 PM
Well those were the days where people were actually really trying to get power. Jugg and everyone were. But Edan has made it clear that no one has power besides him. And to tell you the truth I think we may have taken the juggernaut(the unit) out, or at least made it general specific. We have recently just resolved a moderator issue about people saying posting their ideas and the mods just disregarding them. Everyone's opinion is highly valued at IA.

Vostok I would love to see you come back and post your ideas on the forums. And if any moderator/higher up was to give you ****, you could just report them to me.

But again I encourage everyone to come and at least check us out at www.planetcnc.com/imperialassault.

BTW, I may have been a little out of line in my last post. I hope you can accept my apology.

Admiral Vostok
08-11-2004, 11:15 PM
Thanks Painless, apology accepted. It's funny you should mention Jugg as he was probably my biggest opponent.

Perhaps things have changed there, in which case I apologise for all the criticisms. Just rest assured I haven't been spreading a campaign of negative comments about IA... my comments have been confined to this under-populated forum ;)

I may just drop by to check out how things are going. If you two welcome my involvement, I'd be happy to help. Though all I can really offer is my opinions and suggestions, I don't think I can spend much time coding. I can do some more voice work too :D

I just want to say again I support what you guys are doing and truly do admire the talent of the team as a whole. I'd hate to see all the effort go to waste.

Edan
08-12-2004, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Hey Edan, didn't expect you to pop up here.

Haha Vostok, you should expect me to pop up anywhere :)

I think we were in a confused time back then... because things seem a bit straightened out now. In that "Shadowtroopers, Dark Troopers, Juggernauts and TIE Defenders " that you said were being included--- that's changed.

We decided to go back to Sith and stay away from shadowtroopers. Dark Troopers are general-specific (droid general). I haven't announced it officially, but the Juggernaut might get cut... or just used in missions only or something like that. It's purpose is useless at this point. And TIE defenders are also general-specific (Airforce general).

People underneath me that you say "had power" were cramming many units into the mod design, but when I took the design and actually told people what to do and what to create (I'm the only one who can do that, thus I'm the only one with REAL power), my focus went to the most important units, and through that those extra units seemed to be cut.

When you decided to leave the team I was quite confused-- I thought you were just having problems with team members and when you said this mod was going in the wrong direction, there wasn't much I could do to prove to you that things wouldn't end up crappy-- I had already tried.

Just remember that I'm the one with the power in this mod, and eventually all the team members of the mod and I will come to mutual decisions that will be best for the mod. I don't stay on top of all the tiny arguments that go on inside our forums, and those discussions that happen are never permanent.

Admiral Vostok
08-12-2004, 12:47 AM
Well it really sounds like things have changed. In my opinion there couldn't be a better person in charge, Edan. It sounds like much of what I suggested has ended up coming to pass!

I guess the reason I left was due to frustration with some of the other team members; they were so adamant in what they were doing although it was contrary to what you were wanting.

But another part of why I left was not to do with the mod at all, I just wasn't sure I could spend a lot of time helping out. I'll do what I can now, but certainly I wasn't prepared and am still not prepared to take on too much responsability with the coding.

Darth Windu
08-12-2004, 04:44 AM
Having seen SW:IA a while ago, i must say i was very dissapointed about the game. One glaring example of why the whole project would fall flat is when someone related to the project said that the B-wing wasn't in the game as it wasn't needed, and yet the E-wing and K-wing were included.

DK_Viceroy
08-12-2004, 07:08 AM
I'm honoured that they chose this topic to appear in, now if only they could cajole Chiss_alert into bringing back my Thrawn trilogy books i'd be happy.

Anyway i think we should support IA because it'll give us ideas about what could be done for SWGB2 we could play it and see what sort of things are doable and how units can be effectiveley put in, I personally am a fan of generals mods namely becxause the origianl was so crap.

Good luck to The Imperial Assault Team, The Blitzkrieg 2 Team and last but not least The C&C Europe Team.

I can only hope that they all create good mods to salvage what is and will always be remembered as a crap game with it's only saving grace as the Mods made for it.

and Windu the B-wing was mainly for attacks against capitol ships and I don't see any capitol ships in IA so i think it would be a bit redundant, however with the spacemode we're trying to get ideas for for SWGB2 the B-Wing will have a Niche that shall allow it to be put in and used.

Admiral Vostok
08-12-2004, 10:29 AM
I think the reasoning that "the B-Wing is only for use against capital ships" is stupid. Again this is an EU invention that doesn't make much sense in respect to the movies.

In Return of the Jedi a number of B-Wings are sent to the Battle of Endor. The Rebellion was expecting the second Death Star to be mostly undefended, it's only defense coming from the shield generator on the Forest Moon. The weren't expecting to run into the majority of the Imperial Fleet.

So if they weren't expecting to come up against any capital ships, why bring a fighter that is only good against capital ships? It just doesn't make sense. Sure, it makes sense for the B-Wing to be an anti-capital fighter, but it must be able to fulfill other tasks too, or else they wouldn't have used them at Endor.

So the B-Wing should definitely be included over the E-Wing and K-Wing, whatever they are.

However having said that, I seem to remember even when I was working on IA at the height of it's mess, the B-Wing was included, albeit restricted to a General, while the E-Wing and K-Wing were also General-specific.

Mr. Painless
08-12-2004, 11:06 AM
I agree with you there vostok. I can let Edan know about it. And if you are wanting to stop in some time soon, I will clear the way and take away anyof the flak you may get. But not to worry, as if they give anyone crap they shall deal with me.

lukeiamyourdad
08-12-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

So the B-Wing should definitely be included over the E-Wing and K-Wing, whatever they are.


The E-Wing is the ship that replaced the X-Wing.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/ewing/eu.html

The K-Wing is the Y-wing's replacement.

Admiral Vostok
08-12-2004, 12:42 PM
Well the X-Wing and Y-Wing are the image of the Rebel Alliance. They certainly shouldn't be replaced by EU units if we want a game to even remotely resemble Star Wars.

Mr. Painless
08-12-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Well the X-Wing and Y-Wing are the image of the Rebel Alliance. They certainly shouldn't be replaced by EU units if we want a game to even remotely resemble Star Wars.
Exactly.

swphreak
08-12-2004, 01:51 PM
The B-Wings were designed to counter captial ships. The Alliance used X and Y-Wings to raid Imperial convoys. To counter the piracy, the Empire developed the escort frigate. To counter that, the Rebel Alliance developed the B-Wing. With it's heavy weapons and defenses, it could engage the frigates. With it's slow speed and low maneuverability, what else could it be used for?

Of course, that is EU information, and therefor irrelevant, but it seems logical for the B-Wing to engage Capital ships.

And why in heavens name would you add the Juggernaut in the mod? That thing was obsolete since the Clone Wars, and dates back to the Old Republic. It is only used in security/military forces for poor outer rim planets during the Galactic Civil War.

Edan
08-12-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Having seen SW:IA a while ago, i must say i was very dissapointed about the game. One glaring example of why the whole project would fall flat is when someone related to the project said that the B-wing wasn't in the game as it wasn't needed, and yet the E-wing and K-wing were included.

Darth Windu... where did you get that information? Don't make assumptions about things there were discussed months ago. In IA, the B-wing is a general-specific unit for the Rebel Airforce General. In fact, it has already been coded into the game. It's wings open when it goes into combat, and twists so that it stands up, like it should. The E-wing is also a general-specific unit for the same general, and the K-Wing is a general-specific generals ability-- it is not a controllable unit. When you get enough experience while playing as the rebel airforce general you can upgrade to get this ability and designate a target in which it flies by and drops its load.

If you have a question, ask me, but don't put out incorrect information on forums... thanks :)

Admiral Vostok
08-12-2004, 02:54 PM
Well, I stopped by the Imperial Assault Forums again today, and while the biggest problems have been taken care of, for the most part my list of criticisms above is still pretty relevant. The problems are no longer as serious as what I posted above, but they still are there. Relating back to my earlier criticisms:

1. The gameplay is still exactly like Generals, which I'm sure many of you agree is not a good thing. Right down to an identical resource system and the inclusion of superweapons.

2. For the most part a lot of the EU units have been moved to being General-specific as I suggested. Yet some EU units still remain in the vanilla faction that will still alter the gameplay drastically from what we see in the movies, and even read in the books. Half of the units just aren't necessary, they don't add anything to the game and just clutter up options. For example, there are seven different types of Astromech droids that do various things, and while not all seven will be in play at the same time, it is still too many peon units to keep track of. Also, half of the Imperial tanks are just unnecessary.

3. The multiple-modes-of-attack issue is still bad. Units don't have as many as three or four modes of attack like I suggested above, but for the most part it is very rare to have a unit with only one mode of attack. Even the basic infantry have two modes of attack and a special ability. Far too much microing and added complexity that is just plain unnecessary.

4. Again, since the previous two criticisms are still evident, there is also far too much doubling up of units and abilities.

5. Finally, I may have been a little harsh in my generalisation of mod-makers. As I've said elsewhere, for the most part the IA team is extremely talented. There are a few team members though who do fit my fanboy description, and these people were the ones I had the most problems with. They are still there and would still vehemently combat any suggestions I would make.

So in conclusion, things have changed but the problems I saw then are still evident now. Despite this, I still daresay IA will still be as popular as it could be, and wish Edan and Painless luck and success.

One thing I feel I should also mention with respect to this forum: during my lurk at the IA forums today, I came across a poll comparing IA to SWGB. Everyone who had replied put down SWGB in one way or another. The fact is that despite SWGB's short-comings with respect to it's resemblence to AoE, it is still an excellent game in terms of gameplay, and I'd be surprised if IA could even be half as good as SWGB - most professional RTS's aren't, why would a fan-made mod be? The SWGB-bashing that goes on within the IA team does not bode well for a team wishing to make a decent game, and in all honesty it is probably contributing in part to my desire to not return to the IA forums again.

Again, good luck to Edan and Painless, you're going to need it.

Edan
08-12-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Well, I stopped by the Imperial Assault Forums again today, and while the biggest problems have been taken care of, for the most part my list of criticisms above is still pretty relevant. The problems are no longer as serious as what I posted above, but they still are there. Relating back to my earlier criticisms:

1. The gameplay is still exactly like Generals, which I'm sure many of you agree is not a good thing. Right down to an identical resource system and the inclusion of superweapons.


I agree, but please inform us on what you'd do differently. I've tried going on the forums and get opinion about how we can make things different, but we have been inable to come up with good ideas that are better than the basic structure of Generals. In addition, going out there and changing gameplay so much is not easy-- Generals can be a pain in the ass when it comes to altering big things, and it has its limits. I'd like to hear what you suggest we do instead.


2. For the most part a lot of the EU units have been moved to being General-specific as I suggested. Yet some EU units still remain in the vanilla faction that will still alter the gameplay drastically from what we see in the movies, and even read in the books. Half of the units just aren't necessary, they don't add anything to the game and just clutter up options. For example, there are seven different types of Astromech droids that do various things, and while not all seven will be in play at the same time, it is still too many peon units to keep track of. Also, half of the Imperial tanks are just unnecessary.

Relax Vostok. The Astromech droids were trimmed down to only 3 droids like you suggested long ago. We're not have 7 different astromechs. You mention Imperial tanks-- what are you talking about? Our only Imperial Vehicles are the TIE Crawler (TIE Century Tank, anti-vehicle), the Chariot LAV (support), the AT-ST (anti-personnel), the AT-AA (anti-air), and the AT-AT (anti-everything and kicks ass). If anything, that's not ENOUGH for the Imperials-- they need to be superior when it comes to vehicles. We've really trimmed it down. Don't make false claims.


3. The multiple-modes-of-attack issue is still bad. Units don't have as many as three or four modes of attack like I suggested above, but for the most part it is very rare to have a unit with only one mode of attack. Even the basic infantry have two modes of attack and a special ability. Far too much microing and added complexity that is just plain unnecessary.

Rebel troopers have thermal detonators that reload every 1.5 minutes (against structures) in addition to their regular blaster pistol. I think that is a necessary thing to include. The Rebel missile trooper only has a missile launcher-- nothing else. Give me some examples of when what you're saying is true.


4. Again, since the previous two criticisms are still evident, there is also far too much doubling up of units and abilities.

Well I just proved that is not true. No doubling of units and no doubling of abilities.


5. Finally, I may have been a little harsh in my generalisation of mod-makers. As I've said elsewhere, for the most part the IA team is extremely talented. There are a few team members though who do fit my fanboy description, and these people were the ones I had the most problems with. They are still there and would still vehemently combat any suggestions I would make.

Noone else in the team matters because they have no right to make decisions about the mod. Only I do. So if you want to avoid them, you can talk to me personally and things can get done.


So in conclusion, things have changed but the problems I saw then are still evident now. Despite this, I still daresay IA will still be as popular as it could be, and wish Edan and Painless luck and success.

One thing I feel I should also mention with respect to this forum: during my lurk at the IA forums today, I came across a poll comparing IA to SWGB. Everyone who had replied put down SWGB in one way or another. The fact is that despite SWGB's short-comings with respect to it's resemblence to AoE, it is still an excellent game in terms of gameplay, and I'd be surprised if IA could even be half as good as SWGB - most professional RTS's aren't, why would a fan-made mod be? The SWGB-bashing that goes on within the IA team does not bode well for a team wishing to make a decent game, and in all honesty it is probably contributing in part to my desire to not return to the IA forums again.

Again, good luck to Edan and Painless, you're going to need it.
Your claims about our mod are no different than how people bash SWGB. Your claims are unbased and incorrect, and they are harming our image for the Star Wars community. I suggest you stop it, and instead give us constructive criticism on what we can do to "make the gameplay better", and don't repeat exactly what SWGB-bashers do.

Whether its this, the B-wing or whatever else, please don't say **** about our mod because everything you're saying is incorrect. You've done enough damage already.

Mr. Painless
08-12-2004, 03:34 PM
Well no offense but I think we are off to a pretty good start. I mean we have been featured in PC Gamer UK. You can find it on our Homepage (www.planetcnc.com/imperialassault) and at this Link (http://www.planetcnc.com/imperialassault/files/PCGamerUK.jpg) .

swphreak
08-12-2004, 03:59 PM
Then I guess the problem of misinformation in Vostok's comments may be from out-dated info on the site. All the R's are still listed and stuff.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with the Primary and Secondary weapons idea. That's in ZH anyways, but the aircraft with 3 weapons might get a bit confusing.

I'm also a littlw worried about the Rebel's combat engineer unit. Is that the only one that can build defenses? [edit] Oh I see now. They build the defenses that rebel troops can use. Sounds cool.

The site got a bit confusing for me, the 3 civs have a little different information layout each time, but you're trying to get the mod done and the site isn't really that important. :p


Can't wait for Public Beta. Been watching the progress bar for a long time. I just need to remember to install Gens/ZH on my new rig.

JediBdm
08-12-2004, 04:31 PM
Bet you didnt expect to see me here:D

ya know i am IA head modeler! I know code and other stuff about the generals engin. Even though it looks simple its hard to edit.

You know how it was said b-wings arent included? they are. Under General Ackbar. We feel that it fits cause he inveted them.

Also x-wings are UPGRADED to e-wings, and y-wings UPGRADED to k-wings

We also include the airspeeder, its ment to kick the at-ats ass.

Aircraft dont have 3.............they have to. Proton torpedoes, or lasers for the x-wing is a example. the torpedoes are limited while the lasers arent.

I think the sides are very balanced.

Also when you come to a fun aspect of IA. SuperWeapons and Powers are just fun! i mean it feels very satafying watchin the StarDestroyer Bombard your enemy:D But then when they send a pack of y-wings on a attack run, you tremble.

Imps-Dominate in the Vehicles
Rebs-Dominate in the Air

Edan
08-12-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Then I guess the problem of misinformation in Vostok's comments may be from out-dated info on the site. All the R's are still listed and stuff.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with the Primary and Secondary weapons idea. That's in ZH anyways, but the aircraft with 3 weapons might get a bit confusing.

I'm also a littlw worried about the Rebel's combat engineer unit. Is that the only one that can build defenses? [edit] Oh I see now. They build the defenses that rebel troops can use. Sounds cool.

The site got a bit confusing for me, the 3 civs have a little different information layout each time, but you're trying to get the mod done and the site isn't really that important. :p


Can't wait for Public Beta. Been watching the progress bar for a long time. I just need to remember to install Gens/ZH on my new rig.

You hit it right on the nose. We've been so busy I haven't had much time to update that site... it is getting VERY outdated.

We need everyone's help because we want to get a public beta out ASAP. We're redoing many of the Imperial structures because we're trying to go for better quality.

Thanks guys, and I'll see what I can do about updating the site.

swphreak
08-12-2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by JediBdm
Aircraft dont have 3.............they have to. Proton torpedoes, or lasers for the x-wing is a example. the torpedoes are limited while the lasers arent.
Y-Wing
Primary Weapon: 2 Laser cannons
Secondary Weapon: Proton Bombs
Secondary Weapon: Ion Cannon
K-Wing
Primary Weapon: 1 Light Turbolaser
Secondary Weapon: Proton Bombs
Secondary Weapon: Ion Cannon

Ok, that's only 2... but this may go under outdated information on the site... or both those secondary weapons fire at the same time...

Mr. Painless
08-12-2004, 07:53 PM
If you have got that information from the site then yes it is outdated. The only things that are up-to-date are the progress bars, screenshots/images, News, and articles.

Admiral Vostok
08-13-2004, 12:57 AM
Edan, again I apologise, I shouldn't go mouthing off at all the hard work you guys have put in.

Painless sent me the latest documents of the unit lists, but I guess the Rebel one must have been wrong. It still had all seven Astromechs, although I remembered you cutting them down to three on my suggestion I figured someone had complained since I left and you'd changed it back to seven. Also, it has in this Rebel document I've got that the B-Wing can be built by the vanilla faction, which is contrary to what you are all saying.

This really isn't the place to be discussing this sort of stuff in depth though. Edan, I look forward to chatting with you in MSN Messenger.

But ultimately, you guys should realise you have for the most part received positive responses towards IA. Don't feel you need to please me when you're already pleasing a large portion of the potential audience. For my part I'll cease the spread of my negative propaganda... though my comments didn't leave this forum and only a handful of people even read them.

[EDIT] Oh, and if you guys are looking for more positive responses I suggest you update the webpage with the new unit lists. It sounds like they haven't been changed since I was on the mod, even though I volunteered to change it and was told it was being done...

DK_Viceroy
08-17-2004, 04:50 PM
The B-wing packed a considerable punch I called it an anti-capitol ship which is what it was but it's firepower would also have been good against the second death star

Darth Windu
08-18-2004, 07:30 AM
Eden - any and all information i post about SW:IA is taken from your website, so any and all information that is posted incorrectly is the fault of those at IA, not mine, and i would appreciate it if you did not make statements such as you did without the relevant information.

DK_Viceroy
08-19-2004, 01:38 PM
Don't be mad go away mad windu just go away.

Websites are often hard to keep upto date I my self know that especially when things chance every few days.

Windu in case you haven't noticed they are in the process of updating the sections.

Now for a new topic within this one.

Resources which ones whould we have and how should we maintain a war effort after exhausting them.

People from the last forum game will definetly be able to come up with interesting ideas after using up every bit of carbon on a 6 player map.

Admiral Vostok
08-19-2004, 04:49 PM
Good topic, Viceroy.

The carbon issue is one that I remember occurring a lot back when I played Age of Kings (though it was wood rather than carbon obviously). I always thought it was pretty unrealistic that armies would just completely scour the land of trees in an effort to get more wood. At the end of the battle you've got a tree-less desert. That's why I prefer for wood/carbon not to be a resource in and of itself, I prefer it just to be a terrain feature that can be destroyed if need be (such as in Generals).

Not meaning to promote my own ideas again, but I think the idea of having a Credits resource that can be stockpiled by mining different unique resources (like plasma on Naboo, spice on Kessel, water on Tatooine and perhaps trees on Kashyyyk) would be cool, and quite Star Warsy. Basically this would be like Nova in SWGB1; you can also get it from trading and exchanging resources.

There should also be, in my opinion, between two and three other resources. My design has metal and gas as I feel they're the most StarWarsy, but of course it is open to debate.

As for maintaining a war effort after resources have been exhausted, I quite like the Generals approach (I know many will shudder) where late in the game there is some sort of expensive building you can set up that gives you a trickle of Credits. Both Windu and I have got this in our designs, and I'll admit I blatantly ripped it off Generals. Another concept that I have included (and I think Windu has too) is the idea of a neutral spaceport. Someone on the forums came up with that, can't remember who it was now though. Basically on most maps there would be a neutral town that included a spaceport that you could trade with as though they were an ally.

Things from SWGB1 like animal nurseries and holocrons that provide constant trickles... well I'm not a huge fan of these. The animal nursery one is okay (if food is a resource) but the holocron one is just a skin for AoK Relics, and doesn't make all that much sense in a Star Wars setting.

lukeiamyourdad
08-19-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Someone on the forums came up with that, can't remember who it was now though. Basically on most maps there would be a neutral town that included a spaceport that you could trade with as though they were an ally.


I hate you Vostok...I came up with that and you can't even remember it. You'ver hurt my feelings...

Well, I think its quite arguable. AoM's Plenty Vault worked well. I guess its a bit like General's building.

But then, should we make certain ressources infinite? It would certainly take care of the problem.

Admiral Vostok
08-19-2004, 10:13 PM
I honestly thought it was you, but I didn't want to piss some-one off if I credited it wrong. Better to not credit at all than credit the wrong person... please accept my humble apologies and this humble gift: :monkey4:

I don't like infinite resources at all, though a trickle after they're used a la StarCraft's Vespene Gas is okay.

FroZticles
08-20-2004, 03:47 AM
The unique resources for credits I'm not that happy about. I think it would be better if it was trading or destroying small camps on the map and looting there credits. You could also take an approach where you use harvestors and mine the resources out of the ground and it trickles to your stockpile if your template is 80% military and 20% economy. Plasma on Naboo isn't even a resource......

DK_Viceroy
08-20-2004, 12:18 PM
This idea would propably be for late game where you see resources are beginning to run out you have a large base plenty of space.

You could build Synthisizers that could break down waste into constituant molecules and rearrange them into raw materials for a resource these could then be ferried by some sort of hovercraft to a Refinery {depending on resource} and make it useable.

you could build several of these and it would be for late game it would take a bit of work to get started but afterwards it would only need to be protected.

Admiral Vostok
08-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Just because I think it will add to the discussion, here's the ideas for late-game Credit trickles I've got in my design:

Galactic Empire
Late in the game the Empire can upgrade one of their Spaceports to a Taxation Agency. They then get a trickle of Credits proportional to the amount of Prefab Shelters they have. The more Prefab Shelters, the higher the trickle. While this will mean Imperial Players build a lot of Prefab Shelters, I think it will work well; Imperial Prefab Shelters are cheap but don't support much population, meaning Imperial bases turn into somewhat of an urban sprawl. Taxation will mean they'll do this even more; and of course the downside is actually being able to move within the huge base.

Galactic Republic
Somewhat ripped-off the USA Supply Drop in Generals, the Republic can build Beacons late in the game, and every few minutes a ship will come in from orbit and drop an amount of credits. I thought despite the similarities to Generals, this ability suited the Republic really well, since it would capture the imagery from the film of dropships and gunships swooping in to quickly drop off their payloads.

Rebel Alliance
The Rebel Trader is a Smuggler. Late in the game, Smugglers can be tasked to smuggle instead of just trade with allies. They'll fly off the screen and return later on with a payload of Credits. The more Smugglers you build the more smuggling you can do.

Separatists
Because the Separatist Movement is made up of several different organisations, they can benefit from internal trading; if the Separatist player builds two IGBC Branches, Traders can trade between them instead of having to go to an ally.
Although I seem to have left it out of the design as it currently is, I also meant for the Separatists to have a second way to get Credits. Since Battle Droids can be recycled, dead Battle Droids will not fade away instantly like other dead units. Instead they'll slowly decay like when you kill a food animal in SWGB (so they do eventually fade, but take a long time). PK Droids can then gather Credits from the broken Battle Droids in order to build even more. If you start collecting the broken Battle Droid right away, you can almost get all the resources you spent on them back. This not only follows the movies well, but it encourages Battle Droids to be used where they might otherwise be neglected in favour of Super Battle Droids.

DK_Viceroy
08-20-2004, 04:35 PM
not bad at all vostok.

I'm just wondering though since everyone seems to have adopted my commanders idea i'm wondeing how many people thought my idea for replacing the tech levels with prioirty levels were because if that is also widely accepted that could be upgraded to allow shipments of supplies { variuos resources }

Admiral Vostok
08-20-2004, 07:12 PM
Which Commanders idea was that? You mean like C&C:Generals? I haven't adopted that. As for Priority Levels, I prefer my Classifications system.

DK_Viceroy
08-20-2004, 07:18 PM
Because i thought perhaps you could upgrade the uplink center with a landing pad which you could use to order supplies in and there could be something like a 2 minute delay or you select that resucre and you get something like 100 of that resoucre a minute.

Darth Windu
08-20-2004, 11:11 PM
Viceroy - hate to burst your buble but the Generals/Commander concept is not yours. Not only had EA already come up with it, I had it in my template quite a while ago, but then dumped it.

DK_Viceroy
08-21-2004, 07:57 AM
Why am i not suprised that you've claimed credit for my good idea.

The commanders idea is different to the generals system because their won't be generals powers like artillery strike or generals points, because theirs also a choice of taking a secondary commander with limited choices so you cna have precise strategies. also these Commanders won't be horribly crappy or unbalanced.

Admiral Vostok
08-21-2004, 10:18 AM
Viceroy, it's still EA's idea from Generals. Tweaking it a little doesn't make it your idea. Generals Powers and Generals Points are not necessarily part of that system: for the most part we're just talking about the different Generals from Zero Hour who have different strengths and weaknesses.

In fact EA's concept is just a tweak of the major Gods from Age of Mythology. Having a secondary Commander is just a reinterpretation of minor Gods. So really there's nothing too original there.

DK_Viceroy
08-21-2004, 10:32 AM
Regardless though if you remember before I left i was talking about a leader system if you remeber i dino't think generals was out then and i only bought AoM 2 months ago so the commanders idea was merely me tweaking an old idea i had into a better idea.

Admiral Vostok
08-21-2004, 10:56 AM
Well Zero Hour probably wasn't out, and it's the one that's got the Generals system. But even if you only bought AoM 2 months ago, it was still out back then and the idea was still well-known.

At any rate, even if you did think of it before Ensemble, they made it into a game before you, so if it were to be included in the next Star Wars RTS, it would be seen as a rip-off.

DK_Viceroy
08-21-2004, 11:32 AM
And wenre't you warbling on that everything is a rip off of everything else and people expect it?

Admiral Vostok
08-24-2004, 12:43 PM
There's a difference between a subtle rip-off and a blatant rip-off. In the case of this Generals system, it is not only a blatant rip-off, but a fundamental corner-stone of the gameplay, which makes it even worse.

DK_Viceroy
08-30-2004, 12:43 PM
How many people will particulalry care after they've played the game and found they like it, sure they may say yeah it shares a few features with this game but it's a really great title.

Admiral Vostok
08-30-2004, 01:43 PM
Certainly a lot of people look past rip-offs, but others (and especially game reviewers and critics) will fixate on rip-offs to the detriment of the game's success. Such was true with SWGB, for although I think along with many others here that it is one of the best RTS games, the fact it is so similar aesthetically to Age of Kings bacame a big issue with some gamers and in particular some reviewers. This is why SWGB isn't given the respect it deserves.

joesdomain
08-30-2004, 08:44 PM
Third factions that are computer controlled but can choose sides depending on who they are like ewoks on endor choosing the rebel alliance or geonosians helping separtists on Geonosis. But also include Jabba's Organization too!

DK_Viceroy
08-31-2004, 03:03 AM
You mean like Warcraft 3's creeps in a way?

Admiral Vostok
08-31-2004, 07:30 AM
That's kind of how I envision them working.

DK_Viceroy
08-31-2004, 10:32 AM
For once something we can all agree on

Admiral Vostok
09-01-2004, 08:05 AM
Yes, though I should point out that this wasn't the original topic we were arguing - joesdomain changed the subject for some reason.

DK_Viceroy
09-01-2004, 08:50 AM
Well someone coime up with a new idea we can discuss before this forum dies again.

Admiral Vostok
09-01-2004, 10:22 AM
Here's an idea I've been thinking about a little bit. Essentially it's a hybrid of the Generals system and minor civs ideas.

What if, in addition to choosing a "pure" force, you could choose to run an allied force. What this would mean is you could choose from a short list of allies for each civ and you get to use them in the game. You'll lose some of your units as a result for balance reasons, but it could create some interesting battles, and also move towards what we see in the movies.

So you could choose from the four "vanilla" factions: Rebels, Empire, Republic, Separatists. Or alternatively, you select one of their allies to go with you. The allies would be like this:

Rebel Alliance
Vanilla - no allies, get access to all Rebel units
Wookiees - lose some of the Rebel units for Wookiee units
Mon Calamari - lose some of the Rebel units for Mon Calamari units

Empire
Vanilla - no allies, get access to all Rebel units
Hutt Cartel - lose some of the Imperial units for Cartel units
Trandoshans - lose some of the Imperial units for Trandoshan units

Republic
Vanilla - no allies, get access to all Republic units
Naboo - lose some of the Republic units for Naboo units
Gungans - lose some of the Republic units for Gungan units

Separatists
Vanilla - no allies, get access to all Separatist units
Geonosians - lose some of the Separatist units for Geonosian units
Trade Federation? - perhaps Separatists could just be the Confederacy, with the option to take the Trade Federation as an ally but lose some of the Confederacy units?

lukeiamyourdad
09-01-2004, 12:14 PM
Though the idea is very interesting, balancing all of those might end up very difficult. We might come across issues where people won't play vanilla factions or only non-vanilla factions or only the strongest ally you can get.

DK_Viceroy
09-01-2004, 01:11 PM
It's an idea at least but I can quite easily see the Confederacy getting Geonosain units anyway quite normally especially in terms of fighters since a game without the Nantex class fighter and other units which are true to the confedreacies style would certainly ruffle my feathers as well as some of the purists feathers.