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View Full Version : KISS tool - what you want of it


Immortality
08-10-2004, 08:18 AM
KISS tool is almost at release date, currently it has 2DA edit/append support and BIF creation. For future releases, though, we'd love to see what you want for it.

If you wanna check the discussion so far and what some people already asked, its HERE (http://forums.forgottenwars.net/index.php?showtopic=10105&st=0&). Also, Theo will be making a GUI tool too for other heavy editing (in time, it'll englobe KISS as well) and also wants to hear your requests. The current discussion for that one is HERE (http://forums.forgottenwars.net/index.php?showtopic=10103). We've made our requests already, but we are only newbie modders, and it'd be nice to hear what already experimented modders, with several releases want :)

SConrad
08-11-2004, 03:14 PM
Theo, the creator of KISS just said this:

"I'm a bit disappointed with the input this far from people from holowan labs on the tools and stuff... like... no input at all"

He's right!

Come on guys! Don't you want to improve KotOR modding?

Achilles
08-11-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by SConrad
Theo, the creator of KISS just said this:

"I'm a bit disappointed with the input this far from people from holowan labs on the tools and stuff... like... no input at all"

He's right!

Come on guys! Don't you want to improve KotOR modding?

"Dear Holowan members, please offer feedback on a tool that I've offered limited information on and that you've never seen. Failure to comply will result in dissapproving messages from someone named 'Theo'".

No disprespect, but I don't know how you expect me to offer feedback on something I've never used. I'd love to offer suggestions, but I'm not entire sure that I truely understand how it will work, what it looks like, etc. I know that some stuff has been posted, but specifics are not there.

Maybe you could take your queues from the marketing community. When they want to test the marketability of a new product, they offer to let a small group of people use it and then poll them like mad to find out if it will succeed in the intended market.

Just some input from someone who knows a little bit about business :D

PS: I just noticed that there is some discussion going on in another forum, which means my comments re: available information may be erroneous. If so, my apologies. It does beg the question, why are you discussing it in one forum but asking for feedback in another? Might be the reason you're not getting as much input as you'd like.

Again, my 2 cents.

Darth333
08-11-2004, 05:36 PM
The kiss system that has been used by Immortality in her Customization pack 1 looks more than promising. But as Achillies said, it is very hard for us to give constructive suggestions as to what we want. I look at kiss as a mod installer system that will check for conflicts and edit files. This would be marvellous and modders have been awaiting for such a tool since avery long time. Am I correct or is Kiss supposed to be something much more extended as the forgottenwars.net forums seem to describe it :confused:

I also understand that kiss can presently edit .2da files, but what of files like spells.2da that are used by force powers. Force powers scripts contain a reference to the .2da line. If you change the row number, then nothing works anymore. Will kiss offer a feature to exclude some files?

In order to give really constructive comments, we would need to have more info on what is kiss exactly and what it intends to do and how. ;)

To make mods, we already have Kotor tool and to my Knowledge Fred is working on an Area editor (demo included in the last 2 versions of Kotor tool). Kotor tool has many of the features described in your forums, including the possibility to decompile scripts by simply double clicking on them (when hazardX script compiler/decompiler is placed in the same folder). TK102 also made a dialog editor (would be great to have it in GUI) and there are many more tools. Cchargin is also working on models.

Immortality
08-11-2004, 05:50 PM
Ahem. Yes, but we are not asking for feedback of something you never used. As Darth333 says, the tool is used in the PC Customization Pack I.

In any case, do expect a release soon, and more updates as long as you people give us input and feedback about it.

Darth: It will be much more. Right now it only does what you say, but Theo wants input for it to be more :) And in any case, the more tools, the better, modders can choose what they feel more comfortable with. Just check the IE modding community... :cool:

Darth333
08-11-2004, 06:18 PM
Then if Kiss is supposed to be much more, perhaps Theo could contact the other toolmakers to see if it would be possible to join their efforts in developping tools. Fred has invested a lot of time and efforts developping KT and many of the features that have been discussed at IE forum are already supported by Kotor tool. I would say that there are two main things that are missing: an area editor (using GFF is not difficult but it requires a great deal of patience and time :rolleyes:) and Fred is working on it. The second thing is that the models be fully cracked and cchargin is also working on it. TK102 made a dialog editor: as I said it would be great to have it in GUI ( i have no problem with a text based app but it scares some people). Knowing tk102, I'm sure he would be happy if someone could make it in GUI ( he already spoke about this in the past :) - the only thing that would be require is to ask him )

Immortality
08-11-2004, 06:30 PM
Also, forgot:

Achilles: Theo cant register this forums, thats why he started the discussion in another, we didnt think it was THAT MUCH of a deal Also, you could just write what you'd like to see in terms of compatibility right here, no one is asking you to post in the other forum. Post it right here. Really, it'll be appreciated.

SConrad
08-11-2004, 08:00 PM
KotOR modding is very new to FW, and we are merely posting here for the sole reason to have your suggestions. We don't have the quality number of modders as HL does, yet.

KISS is a tool that will refine KotOR modding. IMO, it's not a question about which tools that can do what, this is an installer that will help modders distribute their mods. As an experienced IE-modder, I state that KotOR-modding is still in it's childhood, nearly everything can be refined. That's what we're doing.

Simply: the user will download an .exe-file which will extract the contents to the right directions. Then, it will trigger KISS. KISS will then do everything required to make the mod work. An easier way to install your mods, and it will aslo assure 100% compatibility, since no overwrites of files are necessary. It can compile your custom scripts into the format used by the game at install, it can append scripts, etc. There is no longer any need for you to decompile scripts to edit them, and then replace the orignal. KISS will APPEND them, to assure compatibility.

This is a tool for modders, so we thought we should ask the modders what they want from it. If you don't want to, that's fine, but we have at least given you the opportunity. You've been given the link to that forum where it's discussed. You can there ask any questions, make suggestions or give feedback (when it's released). All me and Immortality are doing here with this thread is to let you know about it.

No offence taken, no offence meant.

Darth333
08-11-2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by SConrad

Simply: the user will download an .exe-file which will extract the contents to the right directions. Then, it will trigger KISS. KISS will then do everything required to make the mod work. An easier way to install your mods, and it will aslo assure 100% compatibility, since no overwrites of files are necessary. It can compile your custom scripts into the format used by the game at install, it can append scripts, etc. There is no longer any need for you to decompile scripts to edit them, and then replace the orignal. KISS will APPEND them, to assure compatibility.

We have been waiting for this since a looong time :rolleyes: and it would really be great to have such a tool :)

Achilles
08-11-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Immortality
Ahem. Yes, but we are not asking for feedback of something you never used. As Darth333 says, the tool is used in the PC Customization Pack I.


I never used the mod, so I didn't make the connection. My apologies for speaking without having all of the facts...and thanks to both yourself and Darth333 for setting me straight.

T7nowhere
08-11-2004, 11:18 PM
Well to start the tool as it is now sounds great... For people that just want to download and play mods. :( What i would like to see it's useabilty as a tool for Modders. Im not really to conerned about new features right now, but I would like to see how I can use this tool for my mods as Im sure others are aswell.

Perhaps the tool would be better in 2 parts. The first part could be used to install mods and keep track of them. This would be a gui where the user could select the mods to be installed(cchargin has made a cool tool called Kmm, which allows people to organize there mods and will install and uninstall, accept it can not edit 2da's.)

The second part of the tool could be used by modders and allow them to pack mods into a file which could be loaded into the first part of the tool. I think it would be better to have the tool pack mods into a file (such as in a bif) and then have the other part of the tool install the mods. this would save space and keep people from having to use and make and installer for every mod. also some mods do not require anything more than dropping a file in override(as in the case of Skins)

Another usefull feature would be the ablility to check savegames for files for mods that have been used in the save to prevent undesired results.

Though I would still first like to see and use KISS myself to see how it will help me to keep my mods compatible.

Shimaon
08-11-2004, 11:39 PM
Lessee...
Right now, the only feature I really would like that isn't being worked on by someone more than capable (Fred Tetra and cchargin), is a GUI for TK102's Dialog Editor. Preferrably one that would work very similarly to, if not exactly like, Bioware's NWN Conversation Editor, since that is really easy to learn and pick up on fast, where as TK102's took me quite a while to figure out how to use.
I also like the idea that T7 had, the whole two-part system could work very well indeed.

Achilles
08-11-2004, 11:40 PM
Since T7 mentioned savegames; perhaps a more intuitive savegame editor could be added. Instead changing values in a boolean, you could have checkboxes next to each of the quests for each planet. Just a thought.

Darth333
08-12-2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Achillies
Since T7 mentioned savegames; perhaps a more intuitive savegame editor could be added. Instead changing values in a boolean, you could have checkboxes next to each of the quests for each planet. Just a thought.
I believe kse is most intuitive :confused: For globals, i don't see the reason why they would have different names, it would make scripting hell. I don't count the times I used kse to verify if my scripts fire correctly or not and to verify what globals I should use in my scripts. It was tk102's intention to make this part of KSE for modders first. If he would have used different names, then it would become useless. Plus someone who would start changing the plot values just for fun, even if they have plot names, could screw up the game. And there are many values in there and even with names, apart stuff like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th start maps (K_STAR_MAP) , they could hardly be recognizable. Plus the values for numerics change... so that makes even more entries...:nut:

Achilles
08-12-2004, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Darth333
I believe kse is most intuitive :confused: For globals, i don't see the reason why they would have different names, it would make scripting hell. I don't count the times I used kse to verify if my scripts fire correctly or not and to verify what globals I should use in my scripts. It was tk102's intention to make this part of KSE for modders first. If he would have used different names, then it would become useless. Plus someone who would start changing the plot values just for fun, even if they have plot names, could screw up the game. And there are many values in there and even with names, apart stuff like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th start maps (K_STAR_MAP) , they could hardly be recognizable. Plus the values for numerics change... so that makes even more entries...:nut:

Globals. Intuitive. Right :)

Maybe for you, but definitely not for me. Sorry, but I need something moron proof.

svösh
08-12-2004, 01:12 AM
I have a question about K I S S it does sound great :D and I strongly believe collaboration with the other tool makers TK102, Cchargin, and Fred would be beneficial to us all.
Ok my question is...
I have made a mod it uses .uti as a disguise property, and it relies on the apperence.2da line 511 to properly work. For testing proposes I only have a few of my own mods in there so there are no conflicts, there is a huge combined mod T7 made hl plugin now it’s appearance file and my own are not the same at all. I have used line 511 as the new line added to my appearance file however his appearance file goes to 600 or more because I have set my mode to work on the appearance file I have installed at 511 it would logically over write the line 511 of his mods so if your kiss system changes my mod to use lets say the last line in his appearance file is 600 would kiss automatically use 601 as the new line then my once working mod will now be defunct because the .uti is dependent on it using line 511 of appearance.2da for the disguise to function. So will your tool actually change the disguise property of my mod in the uti the same as a gff editor would, so it will function with his appearance file saving me a big head - ache writing an in-depth read me ?

svösh

Darth333
08-12-2004, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Achillies
Globals. Intuitive. Right :)

Maybe for you, but definitely not for me. Sorry, but I need something moron proof.
Hehe , well no, not Globals: we all have to find what they are. I was talking about KSE in general.

The globals part i think is mostly useful for scripting: if i don't see the real names, it is useless to me :(

Maybe a list for the main plot events, similar to cheats would be best :)

Achilles
08-12-2004, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Darth333
Hehe , well no, not Globals: we all have to find what they are. I was talking about KSE in general.

The globals part i think is mostly useful for scripting: if i don't see the real names, it is useless to me :(

Maybe a list for the main plot events, similar to cheats would be best :)

I think that we are trying to say the same thing. KSE itself is pretty easy to use...editing stats, feats, etc.

My suggestion was to set it up so that if you wanted to edit the save game to reflect that you had found the Tatooine star map, you could go find the Tatooine section, expand it, then put a check mark next to an entry labelled "Tatooine Star Map". This would eliminate have to search for the appropriate boolean and make the necesary changes that way.

Similarly if I wanted to mark the Dustil side quest as complete, I could go find Korriban>Sith Academy>Dustil Side Quest then put a check next to the LS end or the DS end. The program would then automatically adjust the save game to trigger all the supporting globals necessary to reflect that I had, in fact, completed the Dustil Side quest.

Does that make sense? Again, it sounds like you're saying the same thing, but I could be misinterpretting you.

RedHawke
08-12-2004, 04:45 AM
^^^^
I agree with what svösh said above that the KISS Tool sounds cool, and collaborating with the other toolmakers would be very important.

But... I also would like to know the answer to svösh's long question?

How does the program work with appending .2da files and the affected sub-files that refrence the .2da files (.uti, .utp, .utc, etc.) and even know what those files were?

How would it handle automatically merging an existing mod with another?

Is that some sort of script that a modmaker writes or something?

The0
08-12-2004, 06:21 AM
In time it will all consist of two parts. A gui toolset and kiss. Kiss being the installer for keeping things compatible, and the toolset for doing the actual modding. These two will then start working together more and more over time. Kiss will always be the commandline core installer without any gui. The toolset will make the use of it easier. The need of writing a scripts for Kiss will always be there though.

svösh made a good point about dependancies. That was basically the feedback I was asking for before. Just like item files are sometimes dependant on the appearance.2da, I'm sure there are other cases just like this one. It is things like that, that I'm interested in. So any information on cases like that would be greatly appreciated.

As for svösh' question, at this moment that's not possible yet, but it will be in one way or another in the first Kiss release, which is coming soon :)

@RedHawke: Yes Kiss is script driven. Of course, it will come with documentation explaining things and I'm trying to keep the script language as easy and intuitive as possible ;)

Darth333
08-12-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by The0

I'm sure there are other cases just like this one. It is things like that, that I'm interested in. So any information on cases like that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the input Theo :)
I don't know if you have seen it but as I posted above, spells.2da maybe problematic: it is used mainly to create new force powers (and some items) as you certainly know. Unfortunately, it refers to a script that most of the time contains a reference to a line in the spells.2da file. If the line is changed, then nothing works.

SConrad
08-12-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Darth333
Thanks for the input Theo :)
I don't know if you have seen it but as I posted above, spells.2da maybe problematic: it is used mainly to create new force powers (and some items) as you certainly know. Unfortunately, it refers to a script that most of the time contains a reference to a line in the spells.2da file. If the line is changed, then nothing works.
The 2da's in IE-games are equally sensitive, but we've not had any problem with that... I certainly hope that modders test their mods before releasing them.

The0
08-12-2004, 03:16 PM
There will only be a problem with this when two mods are installed that add something to the spells.2da, and when the first mod would be uninstalled, removing a line from the 2da. So that means I will not make the uninstall function do that. Instead I'll probably do something like making the line empty instead, so that all other lines will stay unchanged. This may cause a little bit of overhead over time, but nothing disturbing.

So don't worry about things stopping to work anymore. I don't foresee any real problems there :)

T7nowhere
08-12-2004, 04:19 PM
Perhaps it's just me, But Im alittle confused as to why you would want to build a toolset and the mod installer tool. It seems as though KISS(the installer part) will consume quite a bit of time to work out just how it will be able to install multiple mods that would normally conflict so that they don't when installed on top of one another.

I don't wish to discourage your efforts in regards to makeing a toolset, But there are already several tools(KT,dlgedit,mdlops ect. ) that have seen an ennormous amount of effort put into their making and it seems like wasted time and effort to start over from scratch and build a new tool with all the functions that already exsist in availible tools. There are few tool builders for KotOR as it is and I think time would be better spent on areas that are lacking. When it comes to building tools for KotOR cooperation between the tool builders is a must.

The0
08-12-2004, 04:26 PM
Don't worry about that. I've been only working on Kiss for a few days and it's having a lot of functional features already. Probably today the PC Customization Pack 2 will be released with all the files in bifs and uninstall support.

And about the toolset, Bioware has released most, if not all, of their file formats, so writing tools is not something that should take a lot of time. In the IE modding scene we had to find out all the file formats by ourselves because we had no help whatsoever from Bioware and we managed to cover pretty much everything.

Jackel
08-12-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by The0
svösh made a good point about dependancies. That was basically the feedback I was asking for before. Just like item files are sometimes dependant on the appearance.2da, I'm sure there are other cases just like this one. It is things like that, that I'm interested in. So any information on cases like that would be greatly appreciated.
Baseitems.2da is another example, Ive added and changed a few lines for some of my mods and uti files need to be change to reflect those changes aswell as with the appearance.2da file when thats queried.

Also some of my changes are just one part of a 2da file where ive gone along a line and changed a few parts of it. Ie to make the yuthura mod better i changed her lines so she can wear other armours and robes without looking like she does in the academy all the time.

The0
08-13-2004, 06:25 AM
Also some of my changes are just one part of a 2da file where ive gone along a line and changed a few parts of it. Ie to make the yuthura mod better i changed her lines so she can wear other armours and robes without looking like she does in the academy all the time.Changing fields of existing lines is supported.

SConrad
08-17-2004, 07:41 PM
I think it's time for a little update:

As the first person in the world, besides Theo (yes, I'm very proud), I've been trying out KISS during the weekend and discussed it a LOT with Theo. Anyway, it looks very promising, and I can assure you that it's a faboulous tool, which we hope will take KotOR modding to a whole new level.

Expect a release within a week, unless something terrible happens. ;)