PDA

View Full Version : Star Wars: Imperial Assault


Darth Windu
08-15-2004, 04:00 AM
Alright. There has been some talk of the SW:IA mod for C&C: Generals, including a few people from that mod visiting us here at the forums. I thought then that it was time I took another look at the mod and express my opinion about it, and why i hold that opinion. Therefore, i would have to say that, having gone over their website, Imperial Assult will be absolute rubbish. My reasons for this conclusion are-

1. EU units take precendence over film units. "B-Wing- Not needed and there are too many aircraft anyways. Please Trust me on this for now." So a film units is not needed, yet they include the V-wing, K-wing and E-wing. Which brings me to my next point.

2. Superflous units. Why do we need the Snowspeeder and the V-wing? Why the Y-wing and the K-wing? Why the X-wing and the E-wing? These units do the same things, the only difference being that EU decided to get even more removed from the SW universe. Another example of this is the Rebel Astromech droids. There are six, yes six, different worker droids for the Rebels, each building something different. Can we say 'excessive micromanagement'? In addition, for the Empire we have both the Stormtrooper, and the Stormtrooper squad. Why?

3. Obscure EU content. One of the Imperial Generals is 'General Rom Mohc'. Having seen the films and read quite widely of SW EU, i have never come across this character at any time. This also applies to units like the AT-ST/A, TIE/D, Hunter-Killer Probot and a flame-throwing AT-ST etc.

4. Units that alter how we see civilisations in the films. An glaring example of this is the TIE Defender. The designers of this mod seem to have failed to grasp that the Imperial fighters are disposable, which is why they are sent up in such large numbers. The Defender completely contradicts this, changing the style of play for the Imperials. Also, why oh why do the Rebels get a heavy tank? These people are on the run most of the time and only put up aircraft and infantry to stop an AT-AT assault on Hoth. I think the point there is that THEY DONT HAVE HEAVY VEHICLES. Again, another example of how civs are completely wrong in terms of how we see them in the films and the mod.

5. Units that simply dont make sense. The Republic Jedi Starfighter Mk.2 has been made to look like a cross between a TIE and JS. Again, the designers have failed to grasp that the JS design was the precursor to the Star Destroyer, NOT the TIE Fighter. If anything, the pre-TIE Fighter would be for the Clones, not Jedi. Another example here is that Admiral Ackbar, the Mon Calamari general, is denied the 'Amphibian' unit which was designed for use on Mon Calamari. Wow, THAT us logical.

I'll just finish off by saying that there are good points to this mod, but there are too many units, superflous units, really obscure EU material, corrupted gameplay and things that defy logic which all go to making this project quite possibly the worst SW game produced, which would be quite a feat. The designers of this mod have the ability to create a great game, but not until they address the multitude of errors in their mod.

DK_Viceroy
08-15-2004, 07:00 AM
Need i forever repeat what the B-wings purpose is To take out CAPITOL SHIPS why oh why does this get through anybodies thick skull?.

point 2

for the most part the older units upgrade into the newer units this makes sense so you won't have x-wings flying with e-wings. The V-Wing is better against fighters then the snowspeeder it has more fire power and is therefore a useful unit.

Point 3

Windu have you ever wondered where the Dark Troopers came from? have you wondered who designed them? General Rom Mohc. The TIE droid is very in keeping with the empire's style you can produce millions of them given secure facilites and they can be thrown away without a problem.

Point 4

The people at Imperial Assault don't care what extreme purists think since they are a minority of a minority and as such can be ignored. We don't see everything that happens in star wars from the films if there's something you see in the mod that you haven't read in your supposedly "blasphemous" EU i suggest you read more as you will find it.

How about you actually play the mod when it comes out instead of accepting everything vostok has said in the past and then after you've played it then you will be allowed to complain without getting a stonewalling. though then yu will still have to justify it.

FroZticles
08-15-2004, 09:06 AM
LOL Viceroy hit the nail on the head, once Vostok says his opinion they all follow. For a Dark Lord Windu you can sure be tempted by the lightside very easily....

Admiral Vostok
08-15-2004, 10:38 AM
I have to agree, play the mod and don't go just on my anti-IA propaganda.

I'd like to address some of Windu's ponts however:

1. As Viceroy said, the movie units are upgraded to the EU units. I think what the IA team is going for is to represent the Empire and Rebellion as they are in the movies at the start of the game then eventually change them into the Remnant and New Republic by the end. I don't like it, but I can only attribute that dislike to my dislike of EU, so it isn't a good case against IA. I should point out also that the B-Wing is included - the lists you're going on haven't been changed since before I was working on the mod. In response to Viceroy I suggest you read my evidence elsewhere for why the B-Wing should still be included despite it being an anti-capital ship fighter.

2. Again for the most part those units are upgraded from one to the other. The six astromechs (I think it's seven actually) is no longer in the list - I was mostly to thank for cutting down the number of Astromechs. The weirdness about having both the Stormtrooper and Stormtrooper Squad was something I rallied furiously against, but it still remains because people couldn't decide on whether they wanted individuals or squads. This remains one of my biggest problems; any decent game designer knows that either one or the other is never going to be used, depending on which one comes out slightly better.

3. As Viceroy said Rom Mohc is from Dark Forces. Most of the units you've listed there have been put in for gameplay reasons I think. However I'd like to point out to Viceroy that TIE/Ds are not in keeping with the Empire's imagery, neither is the Dark Trooper, because such a propaganda machine as the Empire would never use droids to fight, which as everyone knows was the armies of their old enemies the Separatists.

4. These units again seem to be included to represent the change from Empire to Remnant and Rebellion to New Republic. Unfortunately it alters the gameplay too much, but EUFans don't seem to care. The Rebel heavy vehicle was another thing I rallied against, even going so far as to point out the GLA has no heavy vehicles on the same scale as the Chinese in Generals, but again my complaints fel on deaf ears.

5. First of all I hardly think the Jedi Starfighter was a precursor to the Star Destroyer - I think the Assault Ship takes that claim. The JS and SD may both be wedged shaped, and indeed the designers made it that way to evoke Imperial imagery, but I hardly think a one-man fighter was developed into a several-kilometer-long battle ship. Yet I do agree there are some units that just do not make sense... though again I should point out the lists you're going on are out of date.

So for the most part I agree with you, but don't just go on my sentiments, I encourage people, particularly you Windu with your bizarre dislike for SWGB, to play the mod when it's released and make up your own mind.

DK_Viceroy
08-15-2004, 04:29 PM
The 6 astromechs and the heavy tank

That is something that struck me as very weird vostok will admit. though in response to the GLA comment though while the GLA may not have heavy tanks it can certainly get them and if they don't it requires a lot of upograding to get anything like an effective countermeasure against an overlord or emporer. like a fully upgraded rocket buggy or 3 fully upgraded angry mobs but it can be done.

Vostok would you say the Angry mob and rebels are conflicting?

perhaps the stormtrooper squad becomes avaible after the tech building is built


Vostok i think it's 6 especialy since the R8 didn't come out till a few months before the peace treaty with the empire and the R-1 is huge and isn't all that useful compared to the other astromechs.

For the TIE/D i'm using what you purport to be the empire's style. a swarm of moderatley armed poorly armoured but fast and manoeverable but disposable TIE's.

Do you really think the empire COULDN'T come up with propganda about the droids. they blew up a friggin planet without batting an eye for propganda.

General Nitro
08-15-2004, 10:04 PM
You just can't beat SWGB. It is the ultimate RTS.

Darth Windu
08-16-2004, 12:38 AM
Okay, i suppose i need to point out a few things here first.

1. These are my opinions about IA, no-one elses. While they may appear similar to Vostok's, they are in no way influenced by what he has said.

2. The unit lists and whatnot that i have used are the most up-to-date from the IA website, any inaccuracies are on their behalf, not mine.

Alrighty then, to the points raised by others.
Viceroy - there is nothing in the films to show the B-wing is anti-Capital Ship. I should also point out that almost everything in EU is called a Capital Ship, which is completely wrong.

for the most part the older units upgrade into the newer units this makes sense so you won't have x-wings flying with e-wings. The V-Wing is better against fighters then the snowspeeder it has more fire power and is therefore a useful unit.

In which case IA needs to make that clear. Regardless, the vast majority of people will want to play as the Rebellion and Empire, not the New Republic and Imperial Remnant (might i just say that i applaude the EU writers who came up with those names, very original and though provoking)

Windu have you ever wondered where the Dark Troopers came from? have you wondered who designed them? General Rom Mohc. The TIE droid is very in keeping with the empire's style you can produce millions of them given secure facilites and they can be thrown away without a problem.

Funnily enough no, i never wondered. Regardless, as i said, i have read a huge number of SW books and yet have never come across this person. It seems then that adding an obscure EU character is not a good idea. As Vostok pointed out, droids are anti-Imperial style, as these were the symbols of their enemies. I suppose i should also ask the obvious question, if the Empire used Droid Fighters, why waste pilots in vulnerable TIE's?

The people at Imperial Assault don't care what extreme purists think since they are a minority of a minority and as such can be ignored. We don't see everything that happens in star wars from the films if there's something you see in the mod that you haven't read in your supposedly "blasphemous" EU i suggest you read more as you will find it.

Actually i have never called it 'blasphemous'. As for EU and purists, im not an 'extreme purist' as i read the books and play the games, but i would think extreme EU fans, like those controlling IA, would be a smaller minority than those who love the films but dont take EU seriously.

As for playing the mod, then criticising it, that will be a little difficult as i dont own ZH, but if and when i do get it i will try the mod.

Vostok - pretty much covered everything with Viceroy, but as for the JS, Lucas specifically wanted to 'wedgie it out' to make it look more like the ISD. Besides, it makes sense that the clones would fly a TIEish fighter, not the Jedi.

Admiral Vostok
08-16-2004, 03:02 PM
As I said, the Jedi Starfighter is meant to evoke imagery of the Star Destroyer, but that doesn't mean it "becomes" the Star Destroyer.2. The unit lists and whatnot that i have used are the most up-to-date from the IA website, any inaccuracies are on their behalf, not mine.Indeed this is IA's problem, since those lists are not the most up to date, and I don't think the lists on the webpage have been updated since before I joined. When I recently returned to the IA Forums I asked Painless for the latest versions, and the documents he sent me don't even appear to be the latest version since they contradict what Edan is saying is the case.Vostok would you say the Angry mob and rebels are conflicting?No, because the Angry Mob is not a squad of Rebels. They fulfill very different purposes - Angry Mobs are excellent against vehicles and buildings while Rebels are good against infantry. The only difference between Stormtroopers and Stormtrooper Squads is that Stormtroopers get better upgrades.perhaps the stormtrooper squad becomes avaible after the tech building is builtIt doesn't.For the TIE/D i'm using what you purport to be the empire's style. a swarm of moderatley armed poorly armoured but fast and manoeverable but disposable TIE's.That's true, but another aspect of the Empire's style is that they prefer humans over droids. If that wasn't the case, as Windu said it would make a lot more sense to just use TIE/Ds, as they'd be much cheaper than TIE Fighters (since you don't have to train a human pilot).

DK_Viceroy
08-16-2004, 03:36 PM
If you look at when the TIE Droid became avaible and where it's major production facilities where you'd know.







HINT Dark Empire I

JediBdm
08-16-2004, 05:01 PM
Well i just would like to point out something.

We are having 2 astros and only 2.

You can argue about what you like and what you dont.

I would like to inform you we need a new writer. So if you wanna help out the CIS and ORP, just let me know.

michiganspeed21[at]yahoo.com

DK_Viceroy
08-16-2004, 05:53 PM
oh plz plz pick me for CIS writer.

just one qeustion. what's a writer. lol

JediBdm
08-17-2004, 12:32 AM
:p

You write unit decriptions and storylines. Come up with upgrades, cost, etc

Darth Windu
08-17-2004, 07:10 AM
Vostok
As I said, the Jedi Starfighter is meant to evoke imagery of the Star Destroyer, but that doesn't mean it "becomes" the Star Destroyer.

Exactly, so why would they go and change it to look more like the TIE Fighter?

Viceroy
If you look at when the TIE Droid became avaible and where it's major production facilities where you'd know.

But there is another problem. Having read the Thrawn Trilogy, JA Trilogy, Darksaber, Callista Trilogy, Hand of Thrawn Duology, a few NJO, 8 X-wing books (and more) i have never come across to any reference to a TIE/D

JediBdm
In terms of units and whatnot, feel free to take a look at my template, which includes a full units list for the Confederacy.

swphreak
08-17-2004, 10:24 AM
TIE droids were in the first Rogue Squadron game for the N64 in the Siege of Mon Calamari, and they may have been in the Dark Empire comics. Been awhile since I read those comics again.

DK_Viceroy
08-17-2004, 02:09 PM
Plz then Oh plz can i be the CIS writer i'll make a good job of it. since confed is my fave.

I would not bother with windu's idea since it's not really for the general's engine.

i'll leave it at that since it has improved

but still stays along the same line with ideas pilfered from other games and a semi generic unit set now which is an improvement at least.

Admiral Vostok
08-17-2004, 02:31 PM
Viceroy, I suggest you go and apply to be a writer through the proper channels on the IA Forums.

DK_Viceroy
08-17-2004, 02:35 PM
It's not in the jobs part of the forum i checked and he's put the recruitment call up in here so i'm mentioning thaty i Would very much like to have that job and help out IA which will be the supreme Daddy of all ZH mods.

JediBdm
08-17-2004, 03:12 PM
well give me your messanger service identity, or just make a topic and IA and you can start helping out in the units list

DK_Viceroy
08-17-2004, 04:26 PM
my msn is the same as my hotmail which is my name with @hotmail slapped on the end

DK_Viceroy@hotmail.com

Darth Windu
08-18-2004, 07:36 AM
Viceroy as a game writer? The results will be...interesting to say the least...

lukeiamyourdad
08-18-2004, 03:36 PM
I can say the same thing about you Windu...

Admiral Vostok
08-18-2004, 04:29 PM
Viceroy's ideas won't be any more "interesting" than some of the ideas they're already using. If anything Viceroy at least knows a bit about RTS games so won't make too many bizarre choices.

DK_Viceroy
08-19-2004, 01:32 PM
yes i do know

a bit

Especially since i have the majority of major RTS titels released in the past few years and about 20 minor ones. I love the bargin bin in Game there are so many goo deals.

Don't get me wrong windu some of your ideas are good but they wouldn't work for the generals engine or they'd take to long to code, besides I think they're looking for someone who has generals and zero hour to do it.

JediBdm

I'm on msn most of the time but especially between 17:00 and 19:00 GMT

lukeiamyourdad
08-19-2004, 08:05 PM
Having a played a lot of them means nothing.

Admiral Vostok
08-19-2004, 10:08 PM
Yet it should give him a better grasp of what makes a good game than some of the... well I won't finish the sentence as I promised not to dump on IA anymore...

FroZticles
08-20-2004, 03:51 AM
It's acutally quite funny seeing as how Vostok and Windu's templates change after each RTS they play.

DK_Viceroy
08-20-2004, 12:44 PM
Indeed frosty i'm beginning to think that the pair of them are budding doctor Frankensteins with their templates as the equivalent of his creation. somthing will come of them for better or for worse, most likely for the worst mind.

Admiral Vostok
08-20-2004, 03:31 PM
Well maybe that's true, but the RTS genre is rife with "rip-offs". In fact, any computer game takes ideas from those that have gone before. Once a company makes an innovation, eventually all the other companies adopt it. Take BfME's context-sensitive interface innovation. I predict in a couple of years just about every RTS will do away with the archaic bottom control panel and move to these context-sensitive controls. Or a more obvious example; the Age system (or Tech Level system) is just a rip-off of WarCraft's Town Hall upgrading.

DK_Viceroy
08-20-2004, 03:47 PM
I think however the two started off as two different systems especially if you look at the original Age of empires it was perfectly in context in terms of the age system and if i rember there were some vague requisites for the next age. that became more so in age of empires 2 indeed if you compared warcraft 2 and age of empires 2 you would see that they are completly different in practically every aspect.

Vostok for those who revile EA please explain this so-called Innovation.

Admiral Vostok
08-20-2004, 04:01 PM
Okay, I'll explain it, though the latest BfME video shows it a bit better than I can probably explain.

Traditionally in RTS games you've got the control panel along the bottom of the screen. The old Westwood games had it running down the right-hand side, but EA changed it to also be on the bottom with Generals. The control panel would show info about the units you've selected, show the things you can build and research at buildings, and would contain the mini-map.

For BfME, the developers have realised that this control panel really isn't necessary. Instead, they've greatly simplified the interface, so that when you select a unit, several icons will appear on top of that unit, relating to what you want it to do.

I'll use an example to illustrate further. In SWGB, let's say we want to build a Worker then get him to build a Barracks. First we'd select the Command Center. The control panel at the bottom would change to show the Command Center's stats and options. From the control panel we'd select to build a Worker. The bar would fill up in the control panel, then when at 100%, out pops a Worker. Now, we select the Worker. Again, the control panel changes to show the Worker's stats, and all the stuff the Worker can do. We'd select the build military building icon, then select Barracks, then place the barracks. The Worker then builds it.

Now the building system in BfME doesn't actually use workers like this, so I'll use the example as though SWGB used this context-sensitive interface too. First, we select the Command Center. We don't have a control panel, but instead on top of the actual Command Center a couple of little icons appear. We select the little icon that builds a worker. Over the top of the Command Center building, a bar appears that fills up as the Worker is completed. When finished, out pops a Worker. We now select the Worker, and on top of him a few icons appear. We select the icon that means build military building, then select the icon that means Barracks, then place the Barracks. The Worker then builds it.

So it's essentially the same, except that instead of the icons showing up in the control panel, they show up on top of the building or unit you've selected. Hotkeys will still work obviously. The minimap is still displayed in a corner. Basically all it means is that the player gets to use the whole screen to see the battle, rather than have the bottom bit hidden under a control panel. A minor thing really, but I think it's a lot nicer.

DK_Viceroy
08-20-2004, 04:25 PM
It might take off but I like seeing what stats a unit has and since I have very bad eye sight it may be a little difficult if i ever misplace my glasses i'm sure many other people would have similar problems or problems like screen quality would these affect the use of that system i wonder?

Admiral Vostok
08-20-2004, 06:41 PM
I doubt it. It will most likely have the float over descriptions like every other game to assist the icons.

I admit I like the unit stats too, and while they could easily be incorporated into a float-over system I doubt they will in BfME, just because there was no way of displaying unit stats in Generals.