PDA

View Full Version : JA vs. JK2 update (no flames please!)


Kurgan
08-23-2004, 12:52 PM
Don't take this as spam, but since we seem to have a semi-weekly debate on which game is "better" just a little factoid for ya.

As of 11:20am CST (ish) here on Sunday, Aug 22, 2004:

JA: 556 servers, 1,417 players

JK2: 420 servers, 847 players


While numbers alone don't mean something is "better" or "worse" (after all, what game you enjoy is a matter of personal taste; and plenty of games put these numbers to shame out there, that alone doesn't mean these games are garbage either), that at least should be something to tell the people who are saying that JA sucks and "nobody plays it anymore" compared to JK2 (it also puts to shame those who have said over the years that JK2 is "dead").

Next month JA celebrates it's 1 year anniversary.

This is perhaps the biggest "discrepancy" between the number of players of these games that I've noticed since JA's first month or so, honestly, but then I'm not checking it every single day.

So play the game you enjoy, people, play both, play neither, it's all good!

Master William
08-23-2004, 02:00 PM
If JA was the second JK game and JO the third, I think JO would have been more popular

Spider AL
08-23-2004, 02:45 PM
If JA was the second JK game and JO the third, I think JO would have been more popular

And if Elvis had lived long enough to run for president, I think JO would have been shipped with a free inflatable banana in the box.

JO is great, JA is great. JK is great. We can each play what we like. End of line.

Obi_Kwiet
08-23-2004, 03:11 PM
What's the chat room vs. play room ratio's for both though?

Kurgan
08-24-2004, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet
What's the chat room vs. play room ratio's for both though?

There's absolutely no way to know, not without connecting to every single one of those servers and monitoring them constantly.

If you want to base it on admin mod use, then both games must be chat rooms (both use them more often than not). If you want to base it on sabers only use, then JK2 wins, because there are more sabers only servers in it than JA.

These stats are just based on the data that ASE spits out. I have no way of assessing the "quality" of any of these players or their servers.

My point is that both of these games are getting regular use, comparable to what they were nearly a year ago, and for the time being JA is outnumbering JK2 in terms of players and servers (this has fluctuated back and forth over the past year I admit, but at the time of my posting, JA was clearly ahead).

Originally posted by Master William
If JA was the second JK game and JO the third, I think JO would have been more popular

You'd have people complaining that so many moves were removed (since after all, some people like JA's saber system more than JK2's so those people would be mad). You'd have people whining that we lost Siege and PowerDuel in favor of KTY, Jedi Master and Holocron. Then you'd have people upset that SP was scaled back so much, with the removal of so many force powers, the removal of the customization, etc. and how the game is now shorter and the puzzles too hard. You'd have mod makers complaining that the game engine is now less flexible, removing so many elements from MP scenarios.

And on top of that you'd still have people complaining that JK2 actually has worse graphics than JA, when it should be a "revolutionary improvement" (people complain now that the graphics in JA look "dated" and should have been so much better than they were).

Who knows, but the numbers are interesting, you've gotta admit.

Druid Allanon
08-25-2004, 06:56 AM
Y'know, I'm tempted to go re-install JO and go around grip kicking some idiots. As far as I remember, kick is already in JO. ;)

Damn... where's that CD?

Crow_Nest
08-25-2004, 08:00 AM
LOL kurgan. You had me fooled for a second there, i thought you ment updates in meaning "Patches" :p

Ace-_Ventura
08-25-2004, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
You'd have people complaining that so many moves were removed (since after all, some people like JA's saber system more than JK2's so those people would be mad). You'd have people whining that we lost Siege and PowerDuel in favor of KTY, Jedi Master and Holocron. Then you'd have people upset that SP was scaled back so much, with the removal of so many force powers, the removal of the customization, etc. and how the game is now shorter and the puzzles too hard. You'd have mod makers complaining that the game engine is now less flexible, removing so many elements from MP scenarios.

And on top of that you'd still have people complaining that JK2 actually has worse graphics than JA, when it should be a "revolutionary improvement" (people complain now that the graphics in JA look "dated" and should have been so much better than they were). i would still prefer jk2

-Zack-
08-25-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Master William
If JA was the second JK game and JO the third, I think JO would have been more popular '

You are trying to say if JA would've been the 2nd JK game with all new modes and saber styles and then JO would've been the third JK game, with lesser modes and only 1 saber style, then JO would've been better?

Master William
08-25-2004, 04:16 PM
no, just more popular, people tend to play sequels more

Kurgan
08-28-2004, 07:13 PM
To update, so far all this week JA has lead in number of players and servers. In fact, at the high times it seems to have DOUBLE the number of players.

Not bad...

Rad Blackrose
08-28-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
since after all, some people like JA's saber system more than JK2's so those people would be mad

/insert dieing of laughter sound here

Lathain Valtiel
08-28-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
/insert dieing of laughter sound here

*Follows suit, because it is my personal opinion that single saber by itself was the best system*

Obi_Kwiet
08-28-2004, 11:51 PM
Well, thats simple really. The people useing JA have spent so much time chatting that they have even used the game to find out how mcuh it stinks. They just assume it's better but they've never tried it out. ;)

Alegis
08-29-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
There's absolutely no way to know, not without connecting to every single one of those servers and monitoring them constantly.
Just filter the saber only FFA servers. There you got your chatrooms

Ace-_Ventura
08-29-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
To update, so far all this week JA has lead in number of players and servers. In fact, at the high times it seems to have DOUBLE the number of players.

Not bad... does it means anything at all?
JKA at this moment: 542 servers, 1061 players, 290 server are using JA+ mod and 619 players are on it. well for me it means that there's only 252 servers and 442 players on JKA. it's nothing, even with ja+ server, compared to other games like CS or ET.

Druid Allanon
08-29-2004, 12:03 PM
High amount of players don't mean a thing. The players playing JA now are mostly honor d00dz. I suggest you check out the INCREASE of the amount of players, that'll show how welcome JA is to players.

Rumor
08-29-2004, 01:17 PM
would you guys just drop it already? a game doesn't have to be superior to have more players.

iamtrip
08-29-2004, 01:29 PM
Lets not forget that jk2 is what 3 years older than JA?

If you took jk2 stats and figures at this stage (about a year after release), its a pretty dead cert that player numbers would be into their thousands (I remember jk2 player figures of 2500) and server numbers way above the figures of JA.

Lets not forget that JK2 is a 3-4 year old game and that after the abysmal facilities for competetive gaming in JA (especially for saber only), most of the competetive community left to try to join JA, realised it couldn't go anywhere and never went back to jk2.

Lets hope raven do a half decent job of quake4 because faith in that company has to be at an all time low.

Kurgan
08-29-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
would you guys just drop it already? a game doesn't have to be superior to have more players.

That's true and I agree. MMORPG's dwarf the numbers of any FPS anyway.

But I guess I'm just turning the tables a bit, 'cause for a long time JK2 apologists were ranting and raving that JA sucked etc because JK2 had more players for a time.


Saying all the JA players are "h0n0r d00dz" may have some merit, but then again, the same can probably be said for JK2 as well. Note how many of the JK2 servers are using admin mods and are sabers only or have most/all force powers disabled. Clearly its not like the h0n0rz guys are all hanging out in JA and only the serious players are in JK2 (or vice versa, I'd argue they both have signficant "h0n0rz" going on). I don't like it either, but that's reality...

Hey, and no need to mock what I said about some people liking JA sabers better than JK2. Even if you think those people are idiots, I've read their posts in black & white on these forums. Hard as it may seem to believe that somebody could disagree with your preference, it does happen. The same is true of people who like the Prequels better than the Classic Trilogy. Maybe they're "wrong," but they exist.

JA will be "1 year old" in less than a month. JK2 is roughly 2 years and 5 months old (not "3-4").

Again, no biggie there either, it's just that the JK2 apologists were claiming that all the JA players were leaving in droves to play JK2, the clearly superior game.

It also goes to show that the people who claim both games are "dead" are wrong. 2,000 players at any given time may not seem like much, but it's hardly 'nothing' as they seemed to be saying.

I'd say the fact that these are Star Wars games (and among the best Star Wars online games available, bar none) shows that they have a longer shelf life than your average FPS. LucasArts keeps their games on shelves for many years (even as "classics"). So people are out looking for a Star Wars game, they see it and they're in... It's much harder to find some generic FPS on shelves years later like that. So another plus in its favor.

And finally, I don't see why "faith in [Raven] has to be at an all time low." Why, just because some JK2 fans were disappointed that Jedi Academy wasn't as good as they had hoped?

Remember Raven has made hit after hit. They're a small company, so they wouldn't survive and get the contracts with big companies like ID and LucasArts if they didn't produce results. JA was hardly a flop. Soldier of Fortune II did well, etc. And before that Elite Force was game of the year 2000, etc. About their only failure I can see was Heretic II. The game got great reviews but only modest sales (IIRC). But I think the companies in the industry saw that this was just a marketing problem and not a lack of quality on their part (so they got lucky).

If nobody has faith in them they wouldn't be working on Quake IV, now would they?

Kurgan
08-29-2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by iamtrip
[B]Lets not forget that jk2 is what 3 years older than JA?


To clarify... JK2: March 27, 2002
JA: September 16, 2003
(so about 1 1/2 years between 'em)


If you took jk2 stats and figures at this stage (about a year after release), its a pretty dead cert that player numbers would be into their thousands (I remember jk2 player figures of 2500) and server numbers way above the figures of JA.

And at the height of its popularity JA surely had more than that too. The point is where they are at now. Obviously JK2 is still going strong, and JA happens to be more popular right now. I'm not saying that proves JA is a better game, only that this can't be used as evidence anymore that JA must be inferior due to lower numbers.


Lets not forget that JK2 is a 3-4 year old game

See above.

Rumor
08-29-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
That's true and I agree. MMORPG's dwarf the numbers of any FPS anyway.

But I guess I'm just turning the tables a bit, 'cause for a long time JK2 apologists were ranting and raving that JA sucked etc because JK2 had more players for a time.

well they are just a bunch of sackriders. ja sucked because of how dumbed down it was.

BUT

siege ****ing rules. i remember during the leak i went to a lan and we all played siege (20 ppl or so) on lan and had a blast. (low pings rule)

Kurgan
08-29-2004, 03:34 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong too, but you guys loved the game back then, because that was before flip kicks were removed.

I remember banning you (and like 50 other people) for that whole incident on the forums too. While we all know what happened, let's not dwell on it... (see *rules*). Let bygones be bygones...

I'm also glad to see you agree that JA had merits beyond the saber fighting, that's something that so many people forget in these discussions. Kudos!

Ace-_Ventura
08-29-2004, 03:37 PM
actually siege is no fun for me. looks like a beta for rtcw/rtcw:et

JDKnite188
08-29-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
siege ****ing rules. i remember during the leak i went to a lan and we all played siege (20 ppl or so) on lan and had a blast. (low pings rule)

You should play Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. It has objective-based gameplay, it's free, and it has 6 maps as opposed to JA's 3 siege maps.

Kurgan
08-29-2004, 03:58 PM
Yeah, but (grabs 'JA Apologists Handbook, 4th Edition'), RTCW doesn't have Star Wars, does it?*

I rest my case!



* I was going to say it doesn't have cool sci fi futuristic stuff, but then you could argue UT2k4's Onslaught & Assault blow it away. ; )

Update (Monday, Aug 30th): Not to beat a dead horse, but JA has basically double the players of JK2 as of 4:40 pm CST!)

Kurgan
08-31-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Ace-_Ventura
i would still prefer jk2

But you should ask yourself WHY you would prefer it?

Because your first experience was with JK2, you latched onto that as "normal" and so JA, which deviated from the "norm" was thus "not as good." Or perhaps not. Perhaps you would play JA first, then play JK2 and conclude that JK2 was superior. It's all a matter of taste really. My point was that the sheer features that are gained between the two games would cause an uproar if the scenario of first JA then JK2 was followed. The general public, mod makers and reviewers would pounce on those issues at once!

As it is, comparing them, JK2 feels "stripped down" from JA. The JK2 apologists would say that the JA additions (to the saber behavior) were "unnecessary." But the rest of the stuff isn't just fluff, it's the heart of the game. It's like these folks are really saying that JA should never have been made. Not to put words into their mouth, but it's as if JK2 simply can't be improved upon... at least Raven can't be trusted to improve their own product (not that a sequel is guarenteed to be an improvement, it may just be a continuation). Maybe I'm stretching it too far?

Again, not to beat a dead horse...

Master William
09-01-2004, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
And at the height of its popularity JA surely had more than that too

Actually, no... not at all... I was playing JA a lot when it was at "its height". Sure there were more servers than now, but I'm just saying that JA has never been as popular as JK2 was. Not to mention the honour stuff ruined the games a lot...

iamtrip
09-01-2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan

As it is, comparing them, JK2 feels "stripped down" from JA. The JK2 apologists would say that the JA additions (to the saber behavior) were "unnecessary." But the rest of the stuff isn't just fluff, it's the heart of the game. It's like these folks are really saying that JA should never have been made. Not to put words into their mouth, but it's as if JK2 simply can't be improved upon... at least Raven can't be trusted to improve their own product (not that a sequel is guarenteed to be an improvement, it may just be a continuation). Maybe I'm stretching it too far?

Again, not to beat a dead horse...


I'm not sure that therew as much added to saber combat in terms of gameplay (ie. actually being useful).
If two reasonably good duelists play, katas or super flying double flipkick combos are a rarity.
Even so, I'm sure many JK2'ers would have been happy for the additions made to saber combat to be added to jk2. This was possible. There was even a JK2 mod that gave you double sabers/staff. The only additions that couldn't already be found in a modded JK2 were katas, butterfly things etc. and based on JK:A's saber combat being a complete copy of JK2 combat i(in terms of code), I'm sure it was very possible for JK2 to be adapted.



The reason noone liked JA, besides it being dumbed down, was that the hit detection sucked and the damage scales were ludicrous. Jk2 people mioved from a game where pull throw was a common attack (30hp). In JK:A you could pull throw with the same amount of force usage and take up to 80hp.
Now if you know anything about how to pull throw, you'll realise how pointless that would make a ff duel.

.....Ok, lets nf duel. An arena where some random butterfly might scrape your toe and take 90 hp, whilst a direct Red stace hit (yes, this has happened) has taken about 40 hp.


So besides dumbing the game down to become more accessable to 'new' players, JK:A also had a ridiculous collision detection/damage system. I don't know whether this was to 'even' the playing field, so the better players wouldn't consistently win, but it sure meant competetive play was pointless. And what's becoming noticable now (although none of you agreeed post-launch) is that no non-competetive community can thrive without a thriving competetive community.

So why didn't they just mod JK2, add new stuff and not completely nerf the damage system?
Well one reason would be graphics; Developers seem to think superior graphics is an equal or more important factor than good gameplay. Sure it is to some hardcore star wars fans, 'movie' creators and RPG'ers, but to competetive players who would undoubtedly tweak their cfg to get max frame rate, excellent graphics fall down to the bottom of the list.

Secondly, many people had 'bad memories' of consistently being beaten by better players in JK2, thus might think they wouldn't stand much chance in a sequel.


Just my opinion why noone plays JA competetively/the game is dead.


Correct me if I'm wrong too, but you guys loved the game back then, because that was before flip kicks were removed.

I don't think anyone loved it, a lot of people said that it looked 'noobish' at the time. It just showed some promise thats all.

Toa Tahu
09-01-2004, 05:16 AM
An arena where some random butterfly might scrape your toe and take 90 hp, whilst a direct Red stace hit (yes, this has happened) has taken about 40 hp.
also had a ridiculous collision detection/damage system.
Quite true.The same happened with JO to me.

the hit detection sucked and the damage scales were ludicrous.
Agreed.A lightsabre,regardless of stance or quantity,should only strike a constant magnitude of damage(unless its intensity has been increased).In fact,lightsabres are supposedly one-shot-kills,and this is one factor that a Jedi Knight game developer cannot,or may not be able to implement in its Multiplayer segment.

The reason noone liked JA, besides it being dumbed down
How?I mean,why do you say dumbed down?

so the better players wouldn't consistently win
Most of the time better players should win,but as we all know,the world is round.Sometimes(be it a fluke shot(in real life,not by our famously ridiculous hit-detection system) or not) weaker players should be able to win some stronger adversaries(like how Obi-Wan managed to destroy Darth Maul in you-know-where)Besides,having the weaker ones win once in a while will motivate them to go for the big boys(and keep on playing at least for that 5 minutes more)

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Ace-_Ventura
09-01-2004, 05:32 AM
JK2 is for 1 of the best games i ever played, just let's see.. good maps, good gameplay. on jk2 if you want to win you need to know how to play, the same doesn't happen on jka. what's the fun about that?

Alegis
09-01-2004, 06:54 AM
JA has got better graphics and saber system..and the maps were better

After i payed JA for a long time i went to a JO "FFA-Duel" server and i left after the first one, was too bugged. you can claim JA has got katas, but JO has these "rotation moves" in air that look ridiculous and are, plain put, bugs.

They didn't change THAT much of JO, but you can feel the difference and its better

Prime
09-01-2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Master William
but I'm just saying that JA has never been as popular as JK2 was. In regards to MP perhaps. But with the server bug, who knows how much damage that really caused in terms of number of MP players. Also, JO came out years after JK and was a brand new system. JA didn't come into the same situation.

Originally posted by iamtrip
so the better players wouldn't consistently win Almost sounds like real sports. ;)

Originally posted by iamtrip
Developers seem to think superior graphics is an equal or more important factor than good gameplay. Sure it is to some hardcore star wars fans, 'movie' creators and RPG'ers. Which is probably 80% of the customer base, which Raven catered to. So in that sense, the developers were right.

Originally posted by iamtrip
but to competetive players who would undoubtedly tweak their cfg to get max frame rate, excellent graphics fall down to the bottom of the list. Fair enough. But are there enough competative players who will buy the game to offset the number of casual gamers and SW fans that want the "bells and whistles?" It seems to me that Raven chose their target audience and made the game with that group in mind. Unfortunately for competative players, they weren't the audience they chose. I always wondered whether that decision had to do with all the belly aching that occured during JO. Who knows?

txa1265
09-01-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Prime
Fair enough. But are there enough competative players who will buy the game to offset the number of casual gamers and SW fans that want the "bells and whistles?" It seems to me that Raven chose their target audience and made the game with that group in mind. Unfortunately for competative players, they weren't the audience they chose. I always wondered whether that decision had to do with all the belly aching that occured during JO. Who knows? I see that as a very important point. Some deride JKII & JA as being 'inferior' because pros don't play. Oh well, for the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the games mainly for SP, it apparently was not so inferior.

I think Raven - and LucasArts - learned something during JKII. Perhaps it was that the most vocal MP audience consisted of fickle, transient 13-year olds taking a quick break from their immature rants in CS to complain that JKII wasn't 1337 'nuff for their sk1llz. Perhaps it was that most people bought the game for SP, but there is a decent sized MP audience worth supporting, and that the most loyal of that audience was split between RP-ers and casual gamers who want 'traditional' MP games (I include Siege here) in a SW setting, and that both were important and yet impossible to either separate or co-exist.

Who knows ... I just beat KotOR again, going back to another play through JA - and loving it!

Mike

Alegis
09-01-2004, 10:50 AM
Reminds me, i can crash any JO FFA server (should work on other gametypes i think) with guns on in Jedi Outcast. I need a friend to help me with it however

shows you how buggy it is :p

iamtrip
09-01-2004, 11:38 AM
I'm bored of this arguement. Some of you are too deadset in your idea that JA was released third so is 'the best yet'.

Where is the audience rivalling JK2's massive audience (when in its prime)?
JA is struggling to keep up with a 3 year old game.

I played baseJK2 for around a year after jk2 release. XMOD for jk2 was the only competetive mod taken seriously. There were few, if any bugs in it, and there was definately no gameplay altering bugs.
This isn't about 'OMFGZ I CAN CRASH A SERVER'. Please. The only relevence of 'bugs' to this arguement are those which effect gameplay. In Xmod there were few/none and I don't remember a basejk2 where collision and damage scales were as screwed as those in JA.

In JA, you can join any server and find a kata does a random amount of damage after it scapes past and a direct hit might not damage at all.


Thirdly, you speak of 'rotation moves'. Are these windmill attacks? They actually required timing and around 4-5 button combo. The hardest move to pull off in JA is pressing two buttons at a time? The learning curve in JK2 was far steeper, I agree, meaning theres something to 'aim for' in terms of competetiveness.

I miss the point about the JK2 mp community. They tell lucas arts what theyw ant, lucas arts releases 3 patches...
I'm sure lucas/raven would have released 3 patches for JK:A...if there was the community there to ask for them.

Ace-_Ventura
09-01-2004, 12:52 PM
ja with better saber system and better maps? are you drunk?

Lathain Valtiel
09-01-2004, 11:35 PM
Personally, I agree that the katas should be utterly annihilated and sent straight to digital hell.... In fact, I'd enjoy seeing that fate on all specials, yes, even lunge.

The butterfly vs. red stance argument is almost totally valid in regards to saber system debates, though I'm more annoyed with the air backflip on staff, as it's almost a perfect escape after screwing up almost anything, and said escape can actually deal 40 damage plus with no penalty except meager force usage.

That said... Windmill attacks are also awfully idiotic, if by that one means spinning like a top after a swing.

Honestly though, JA is 'mostly' the better game. Though I would like it so much better if they at least rebalanced the staff and dual sabers... The skill to kill difference on those things is ridiculous... I still can't believe the first time I ever pulled out a dual on Chop Shop I won handily.

Druid Allanon
09-02-2004, 02:29 AM
One of the things I don't like about JA was the removal of flipkick. Back in JO, ff dueling was spiced up with flipkick, hence nf dueling wasn't the only dominant one. However, with the arrival of non-flipkick JA, nf dueling has become like the only competitive gameplay. If you were to ff duel in basejka now, it'd all be about doing saber pull throw and healing. How boring.

txa1265
09-02-2004, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by iamtrip
Some of you are too deadset in your idea that JA was released third so is 'the best yet'. Actually those are two different sentiments - one that it is best since it is the latest, the other that it is the best because it is the best.
Originally posted by iamtrip
I'm bored of this arguement.But what *is* the argument? What is the point?

If you are contending that the quality of a game which offers a SP focus and a rich MP experience is based wholly on how many people play the MP side, then you (in the general sense) are stupid and wrong. If you are contending that you don't like JA's MP experience and find it inferior to JKII, and point to the server numbers as evidence that many also share that opinion, then you have an opinion, and a point, although many have presented mitigating factors as to why the numbers are what they are.

Personally, I like a game based on my opinion. Sounds obvious, but I've noticed that in many instances - here in particular - the prevalence of an adolescent need to justify the love or hate of a game by beating on others until they see it your way.

I loved JKII - it was my favorite game ever for a while (and I'm in my late 30's and have been a heavy PC gamer for >20 years!). When JA came along, it delivered much of what I was looking for ... and I just loved the (albeit flawed) experience.

Mike

iamtrip
09-02-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by txa1265
although many have presented mitigating factors as to why the numbers are what they are.

Where?

I don't see any mitigating factors that explain why JA server and player numbers struggle to compete with an aged JK2.

There is of course one point mentioned. If you're suggesting a 'server bug', do you really think that if people loved a game they would leave after not finding a server?
Surely they would investigate and find out about the bug, or merely wait/play on the servers that they can see?


I don't recognise any other reasons, besides a poor collision detection, a 'dumbing' down of attacks (in terms of complexity in pulling them off, in terms of dumbing down forces, such as showing abosrb usage, removal of out of los gripping, removal of close range pt and removal of kick, to mention but a few), as well as the removal of a deadset damage system, rather than a seemingly random calculation (stemming from poor collision detection).
These are the reasons why JA server and player numbers are so low.
If you would have referred to these mitigating factors, then naturally, I would agree with you.


And finally, the argument I am tried of is the reitteration of these changes, which caused the dramatic drop in player numbers when compared to a successful JK2 when in its prime.
If of course you could suggest other reason...any other reasons, perhaps you' would add validity to your point.

Rumor
09-02-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
would you guys just drop it already?

READ, UNDERSTAND, PRACTICE, AND STFU.

g//plaZma
09-02-2004, 03:57 PM
i think we should bring this to the jedi council lololol

/bow

Kurgan
09-02-2004, 05:51 PM
If you want to blame this thread on someone, blame it on me, I started it! But I figured I'd try to bring some substance to the debate, rather than just spit forth my opinion and curse everyone who disagrees (as has unfortunately happened in the past with certain people in these debates).
...

Basically we have people arguing that JK2 takes more skill because we have people using Flipkicks, DFA's and backstabs.

And this is considered more skillfull than using Katas, butterflys or twirls.

While this probably makes a ton of sense to those making the argument, to me it just sounds like we're substituting one set of "uber" moves for another and saying our way is good, but the other is for "n00bs."

Is it really better and more skillful, or just different?

And I've often argued that even if this is so (what the JK2 players claim) this doesn't begin to answer the fact that neither game is just about saber dueling, even if that's all some people ever play.

How do we measure the popularity of JA vs. JK2? If we measure it by number of servers and number of online players then JA wins.

Then we have people backtracking and saying that JA has to win by a huge margin in terms of servers? Or something? By how much should JA be winning? Should it have 84,000+ players like Half Life? Should it have 500,000+ subscribers like EverQuest? What? Again, the purpose of the numbers was to show that for some reason, there are more people playing JA online NOW than there are playing JK2 online NOW. Doesn't this detract from the long-time assertion by some people that JK2 is so clearly superior and more popular (a tautalogy emerges.... JK2 is better because it's more popular, it's more popular because it's better...etc).

I'm not saying that alone makes it a better game, but as to popularity, well... numbers man, numbers. And saying that all the JA players must be RPG players standing around chatting and emoting doesn't hold water. There are just as many admin mods (in fact more and for a longer time) in JK2 as there are in JA, so there's just as great a chance (if not more) that all those JK2 players are just "standing around and chatting and emoting" instead of competing.

I agree, the server bug did hurt JA quite a bit, but the patch is out now, and the majority of players are using that.

With JK2 you also have the issue of the patches. Many were furious when 1.03 came out and either quit the game or refused to update. That divided the community. Likewise with 1.04. So you now have a large number of people using each of the different patches (although 1.04 has the majority).

So while the server browser bug was devestating to JA, the patches for JK2 caused a lot of problems there as well. Just think back... JK2 wasn't quite as rosey as some people are acting like, compared to what JA was. They both had their problems.

Sides, just a nitpick but it can easily be argued that some of those things like the "out of line of site grip effect" were actually BUGS in the game and uintended. The fact that some people liked them and used these exploits to their advantage in strategy changes nothing. Obviously Raven didn't fix every bug and exploit that was in JK2, but they did fix some of them. They seem to have determined that flipkicks were also no longer necessary for the type of battles they wanted. That this removed several "combos" is too bad for those who liked them yes, but, oh well...

In the end yes, I agree that it's based on personal preference. You can like a game and play it even if you are the only person in the world doing so and that's fine, because it's what you like to do. Likewise you can like and play a popular game if you want to, and that doesn't automatically make you a "sheep" or something else, since you may have your own reasons for liking it other than being with the "in" group. And there's always the possibility of playing or liking BOTH of two "competing" games.

JK2 and JA are only considered "competing" really because they are so similar. But, as we all know, there are subtle differences. For me the pros outweigh the cons enough in JA's favor that I prefer to spend my time playing that game. I don't demand that others do the same, only that they recognize that I may have reasons for liking it other than that I must be an idiot, an RPG player or a "n00b" or something like that. ; )

If a person likes JK2 better than JA, that's fine too. I don't have a problem with that. Only the attitude that they must be above the rest of us because of it.

Spider AL
09-04-2004, 06:39 PM
This thread and in fact, every thread dealing with the subject in question, merely shows that I and others of a similar mind to myself were right to stop playing the JK series online. Frankly, returning to these forums to see the same immature bickering over trivia continuing unabated after a large chunk of time, both saddens and sickens in equal measure.

Games are games. Back in my day, one played the games one enjoyed and enjoyed playing those games. One did not try to alter games one didn't enjoy to make them more enjoyable for one, nor did one sit around whining about the reasons why one disliked those games. Thus, games of merit, like JK, found their own audience and survived for a reasonable amount of time before fading away into near-oblivion as their natural life-course was run. This is the way the gaming world should be, again.

Let's be totally honest with each other. One would have to be a complete mung bean to expend any emotional fuel debating over which game was better, JO or JA. If you like JO, play it. If you think too few people play it, publicise it. Organise tournaments, get your friends involved... but be prepared for it to die out. Like a pet, a game provides comfort and unconditional attention... but it eventually croaks, no matter how much you patch it up.

Be like Kurgan. Be mature. Be respectful of others. Or perhaps I'm asking too much.

I have a jolly idea. Let's create a "choose your own adventure" version of the JK online community.

------
You stand in a locked room. A computer terminal blinks accusingly at you from one corner of the room. It appears to be logged into something called "Lucasforums"... You feel an uncontrollable urge to type something.

If you type:

A: "The game's dead" - turn to page 6.
B: "The game's dead because of 'x' gametype" - turn to page 204.
C: "The game's dead because it sucks" - turn to page 3.
D: "The game's dead because Raven sucks" - turn to page 29.
E: "The game's dead because YOU suck" - turn to page 10.
------

I think it'll sell great. Judging by most contemporary game forums in addition to this one, there's a big demand for such an absorbing adventure.

mediablitz
09-04-2004, 07:42 PM
Clearly moves like speed-rage DFA, grip kick, pull throw kick, pull kick, while being easy to learn, were considerably difficult to truly master. This added depth to basejk2 that basejka just can't come close to rivaling. The hardest move in basejka is pressing two buttons at the same time. This move can be mastered in around 10 minutes by even the worst gamer.

Flat out, JKA is indeed a dumbed down version of jk2, catering to fan boys over gamers who want an interesting and challenging experience where they are rewarded for taking the time to practice and master skills.

JK2 was a brilliant game. Speed Rage DFA is the ultimate example. In all the time that the game was released, and the countless amount of people who actually attempted to master this skill, only a small handful ever truly reached the highest levels of ability at it. The cap for jk2 skill was never reached, players still in the game are still improving considerably as the months go by. This is when you know a game has depth. 3 years after the release of the game the roof of skill has still not come close to being reached. The seperation between an unexperienced player and a vet is extremely large. JKA is not like this. A complete and utter newbie can reach a level to compete with the most experienced players in a very short time.

I guess it depends on what you are looking for out of a game. If you simply want to be emersed in the star wars universe and pretend to be Darth Maul, JKA is the superior game. If you want an interesting game with extreme replayability and depth, JK2 is vastly superior on every level. That includes saber only no force dueling. The hit detection in jka is so bad, and the damage so absurdly random, that any hope of taking it seriously from a competitive standpoint is impossible.

Alegis
09-05-2004, 12:11 AM
JA has katas, JO has gripkicks. Last one isnt even supposed to be a feature

iamtrip
09-05-2004, 01:58 AM
This added depth to basejk2 that basejka just can't come close to rivaling. The hardest move in basejka is pressing two buttons at the same time. This move can be mastered in around 10 minutes by even the worst gamer.

Did you not read his post Algeis?

Nubs can't kick/gripkick (at least not until after a while practicing/if ever), but they can kata after 5 minutes (4 1/2 of those minutes spent reading the manual).

There is no skill to a kata. You press 2 buttons and watch the pretty animation.
To gripkick, you need to press about 5 buttons, do it quickly, avoid push/pulls, move around and get out before they counter.

Once you've 'mastered' basejka, thats it. Theres nowhere else to go, nothing else to learn. What is there to keep practing, to get better at? The hardest move is a 2 button combo, (and thats just an automated animation).

Really...

_PerfectAgent_
09-05-2004, 08:44 AM
Katas are near useless. In a guns game, prepare to be shot. In saber only, prepare to be lunged, pushed, or have a saber thrown at you.

Rumor
09-05-2004, 01:53 PM
Just drop it already, FFS.

If you like JA, thats fine, nobody cares.

If you like JO, thats fine, nobody cares.

The argument about JO being superior in competitive gameplay was finished the moment JA hit the shelves. JO is by far better. JA is for fan boys, plain and simple.

THERE. END OF DISCUSSION SO JUST STFU ABOUT THIS DEBATE THAT WAS SETTLED A YEAR AGO.

Lathain Valtiel
09-05-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by _PerfectAgent_
Katas are near useless. In a guns game, prepare to be shot. In saber only, prepare to be lunged, pushed, or have a saber thrown at you.

Or just slashed, as red goes past katas.

Spider AL
09-05-2004, 05:33 PM
THERE. END OF DISCUSSION SO JUST STFU ABOUT THIS DEBATE THAT WAS SETTLED A YEAR AGO.I guess I was asking too much...

Kurgan
09-05-2004, 11:36 PM
<--------- Fanboy, 'nuff said. ;)

Or if I did say more, I'd say:

"If you 'master' basejk2, there's nothing else to do as well" (since by definition "mastery" means you've completed all there is to know). Unless you extend this to the idea of mods, isn't it a somewhat dubious argument? Maybe you meant to say "it's harder and takes longer to master, implying great complexity and therefore quality."

And:

"I'd buy Al's book."


Again, blame me for bringing up this topic with what I thought was an interesting fact. I apologize if it offended anyone, and I'm sorry for causing a stir. Maybe I should have just kept quiet. A couple thousand people are still playing and (perhaps) enjoying both games as we speak... maybe they've got the right idea and we're missing the point. What do you think?

iamtrip
09-06-2004, 06:03 AM
Nah, this gives me somthing to do at work :eek:

btw, the point was, noone 'mastered' basejk2 as you can always improve.

But as for katas; its a set animation. You do it once. You do it twice in the exact same way. Third time is the same. Fourth time is completed the exacvt same way...

Prime
09-06-2004, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by iamtrip
Where?

I don't see any mitigating factors that explain why JA server and player numbers struggle to compete with an aged JK2. Do a search. They have been discussed lots of times already. At length.

mediablitz
09-06-2004, 08:39 AM
Bored of being conversational

if you think JKO is better than JK, you are a newbie and an rpger

If you think JKA is better than JKO, you are a newbie and an rpger

Rumor
09-06-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
I guess I was asking too much...

Pull your head out of your ass spider, caps are for emphasis.

As for being non confrontational or whatever you said in your last book, red rocket your dog till the milk comes out. I've never seen you be non condescending nor respectful for that matter, so you can drop the eliteist bull**** attitude, as you are far from it.