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neon_git
08-27-2004, 11:46 AM
I'm sure this has probably been debated quite a lot before but you'll have to forgive me because i'm new to the forums. So... Manny doesn't seem to have been a bad soul in life judging by his actions in death so why was he made to be a reaper?

My theories are that maybe when you die it might change your outlook on "life".

Or possibly you are made to forget so you don't spend your time looking back and cursing your actions instead of helping other souls.

i don't find either of these ideas really satisfying so if there are any other theories out there i'd like to hear them

Shuz
08-28-2004, 10:37 AM
I think Manny has a good soul but his circumstances in his life may have caused him to do some bad things. He may have had to steal to survive or he accidently killed someone, I dont know. Life is very complex and the motives and circumstances of a persons actions can be even more complex.

Captain Gonzo
08-28-2004, 07:01 PM
It's mentioned a few times that Manny is working off a 'debt' at the DOD. I think one of the most interesting unanswered questions in Grim is, what exactly did Manny do wrong in his life to deserve this debt?

The story is cooler for never telling us and maintaining the mystery really. A similar thing that springs to mind is in the film Pulp Fiction, we never see what's in the briefcase. Leaving little things like that to the imagination is always neat.

Ck
08-30-2004, 03:18 PM
I reckon manny was a hell raiser! lol He probably seemed a better soul in the game because he'd been working a the DOD for ages! learnt the error of his ways, if ya like lol

JawaJoey
08-30-2004, 10:42 PM
I think it's a great mystery, and I like it just the way it is: Mysterious.

He says in the game that he doesn't know what he did. That's interesting, as it implies that he didn't really do anything blatantly wrong. Plus his conduct in the Land of the Dead shows that he's a good guy, he's just seems sad, yet accepting, that he's stuck paying off a debt.

But it's not only that I like the mystery that I don't want to guess why, it's also that it's ridiculous to even attempt to theorize on.

Think about it. What would we be guessing? His entire life? What do we have to go on? He's in moral debt, he doesn't even know why, and it would have been different if he had had a car like the bone wagon when he was alive.

The possibilities are endless! And there is no way to validate anything.

Ck
08-31-2004, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by JawaJoey
The possibilities are endless! And there is no way to validate anything.

Which is just why we all love it!
as it's said somewhere above it maintains the mystery of the game. I don't think it would of worked if they explained manny's whole story.

Sally J Limones
09-01-2004, 07:29 PM
I like to think that he didn't actually do anything wrong, he was sent to the DOD for a reason. Ie, perhaps, rooting out the corruption? Who knows, this is the higher powers we're talking about here. ;)
~Sal

neon_git
09-02-2004, 06:29 AM
Y'know, upon reflection i think i do like it better as a mystery.

but that doesn't mean i'm going to stop asking dumb questions like ... uh .. so whos got a theory on why Glottis is orange?

anyone?

EmTeeZ
09-02-2004, 09:54 AM
What? Weren't you guys paying attention to the story? The villains were taking away easy passage through the Land of the Dead from innocent people. Manny was one of those people who received a fate that was undeserved. He didn't know what he had done wrong because he didn't do anything wrong- the evil bureaucracy screwed him over.

Sally J Limones
09-02-2004, 07:06 PM
No, that doesn't work because Manny was at once a star salesman. It doesn't make sense that later he isn't getting any sales if he was screwed over from day one.
~Sal

VampireNaomi
09-03-2004, 05:39 AM
I always got the impression that Manny actually did something bad, and then redeemed himself by fighting against corruption. I like him a lot better that way.

Sally J Limones
09-03-2004, 07:27 AM
Manny says he doesn't know how he screwed up. He could have done nothing true, but as in, he did nothing with his life. He seems the drab and beaten down type at the beginning, maybe that's what he was like in life??
Theories, theories...
~Sal

VampireNaomi
09-03-2004, 07:39 AM
Or maybe he did something, but didn't know it. Like... maybe he was in a helicopter and accidentaly dropped a really heavy rock which hit someone and killed that person. In a way it was a murder, even if Manny didn't mean it and never heard about it. The DOD could have decided to be bureaucratic and make him a Reaper because of an accident he didn't know about.

That sounds... silly. :p

Kloreep
09-05-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by EmTeeZ
What? Weren't you guys paying attention to the story? The villains were taking away easy passage through the Land of the Dead from innocent people. Manny was one of those people who received a fate that was undeserved. He didn't know what he had done wrong because he didn't do anything wrong- the evil bureaucracy screwed him over.

But... until Hector came along, one would assume people did get their Double-N Tickets, if perhaps with bureacratic, glacial slowness. ;)

Late in the game in year 4, it's revealed that once Hector came along, he hoarded all the tickets he had in the vain hope that would help him weasel his way in to the Ninth Underworld. The tickets he sold were fakes. So, one would assume that if Manny had had a real ticket that was stolen from him, it would have been in that briefcase along with the others... but, no ticket jumped out at him as it would have.

So I think we can conclude he indeed didn't earn a Double-N ticket while in this life.

VampireNaomi
09-06-2004, 07:00 AM
Very well said, Kloreep.

Sally J Limones
09-07-2004, 05:44 PM
-_- Why didn't I think of that? Grr.
~Sal

El Virus
09-26-2004, 04:23 AM
I don't know why but I like to believe it had something to do about ripping off clients on a really big corporate scheme, I think he was what on the FBI they call a "white collar criminal". So I believe that is why he is helping Salva on his cause (subconsciously)

VampireNaomi
09-26-2004, 04:26 AM
I am stupid. What's a "white collar criminal"? :confused:

El Virus
09-26-2004, 04:29 AM
A person who creats a scheme to get people's money, goods, etc.(called like that due to ther corporate outfit).
PS: you are not stupid, it is not a common term.:)

VampireNaomi
09-26-2004, 04:35 AM
Ah, now I see. Maybe Manny was like that, I could see him doing it.

Murray the Chao
09-26-2004, 11:46 AM
Manny served the Zombie Pirate LeChuck in CMI, remember?

Shuz
09-27-2004, 05:56 AM
Haha, true!

El Virus
10-02-2004, 09:06 AM
I also believe he killed someone, I was playing the game again, and I noticed that (on the spanish translation, I don't if on others it does), while Manny is speaking to Meche, he asked her if he had never killed someone, on a tone that makes you believe he did.

VampireNaomi
10-02-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by El Virus
I also believe he killed someone, I was playing the game again, and I noticed that (on the sapnish translation, I don't if on others it does), while Manny is speaking to Meche, he asked her if he had never killed someone, on a tone that makes you believe he did.

Really? I never noticed that in the English version.

What we have to keep in mind though, is that the English version is the original one. ;)

But anyway, I wouldn't put it past Manny. He was able to destroy Hector without a thought, and didn't he kind of trick Chepito into being captured by the octopus?

El Virus
10-02-2004, 10:31 AM
You're right, the english is the original one.
The only problem is that when you talk to Domino, Manny asks him about his past, and so does Domino, but Manny says he doesen´t know what he did to get stuck on El Marrow.

VampireNaomi
10-03-2004, 12:26 AM
Yes, that's a problem. If he had done something really horrible, surely he would know it.

Maybe he knew all along that he hadn't been very good in his life, but didn't know what had been his worst deed, the one that doomed him to be a Reaper.

I think Charles Frederick aka MeddlingMonk used something like that in his story "The Sprouting of Don Copal". Just like Manny, Domino wasn't told what he had done. He knew he hadn't been a saint in his life, but didn't know what he had done. read the story if you have time, it's very good.

El Virus
10-03-2004, 04:39 AM
I'll surely read it if you say so;)
The fact that they don't say what Manny had done in his life is very good as it leaves it to our imagination like a lot of other things of the game.

anomalousresult
10-06-2004, 06:00 PM
I like to think he's much like myself and basically can't be arsed being good to people, like meche was, and therefore has to pay off that debt by being a reaper.

but maybe i'm being too much of a geek in thinking i am manny. to think about it, it is quite worrying, anyway, yes.

basically gonna play through it again tonight. not forgetting cpu killer.

El Virus
10-07-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by VampireNaomi
I think Charles Frederick aka MeddlingMonk used something like that in his story "The Sprouting of Don Copal". Just like Manny, Domino wasn't told what he had done. He knew he hadn't been a saint in his life, but didn't know what he had done. read the story if you have time, it's very good.
Sorry to disturb you again, but where can I find the story:confused:

VampireNaomi
10-08-2004, 07:02 AM
Here you go, El Virus: the novelizarion & other stories by the same author (http://home.alltel.net/cf14312/)

El Virus
10-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Thanks now I can read them:)

VampireNaomi
12-12-2005, 03:23 PM
Sorry to revive an old thread. I thought it would be better than starting a new one, considering that this one is already filled with interesting theories.

Has anyone wondered why Manny was a Reaper, but someone like Nick wasn't? I'm sure we all agree that Nick is a rotten egg compared to Manny. Why didn't he have to work off a debt?

a) Manny's life was worse than Nick's
b) Nick only became truly corrupted after death
c) Nick has already worked off his debt (unlikely, if you ask me; he just doesn't have that air around him and you'd think he might have learned something if he had)
d) something else, what?

El Virus
12-12-2005, 07:29 PM
Well, I've been thinking about this for a while (not that long actually, just today), and I've got a small theory about Manny's reason for being a reaper (of course, it is just for entertainment purposes, I do not believe it to be true; and I like the fact that the gamer never finds the real thing out).
Now, due to the appearance of the Land of the Living (if I remember correctly), the game seems to take place on the 50s or late 40s (er, avoid the fact about computers and stuff), specially since Casablanca was filmed around that time (and we all know the importance of this film to GF). Now, what happened during the decade of 1940? the Second World War. Perhaps Manuel Calavera was a soldier himself, and he got killed during the conflict. Since being a killing under soldier duty is not considered a 'sin' or 'bad action' entirely, Manny is not aware of the reason of his punishment in the afterlife.

But, I truly believe that the reason for Manny to be in the Land of the Dead was deeper. Not based on his actions, but on his attitude towards life (such as in Dead like me, you know...).

Has anyone wondered why Manny was a Reaper, but someone like Nick wasn't
What do you mean Nick Virago was not a reaper? I always thought he was one.

VampireNaomi
12-13-2005, 02:01 AM
What do you mean Nick Virago was not a reaper? I always thought he was one.

Then we've got a disagreement in our hands. I have no actual proof, but something in Nick doesn't scream a Reaper to me. I always thought he was someone who had to walk. On the other hand, if he had been a Reaper, that opens a whole new world of possibilities.

As for your other theory, it makes sense.

But, I truly believe that the reason for Manny to be in the Land of the Dead was deeper. Not based on his actions, but on his attitude towards life (such as in Dead like me, you know...).

This especially is probably the best speculation that has come up yet.

Manny C
12-13-2005, 07:50 AM
I also believe he killed someone, I was playing the game again, and I noticed that (on the spanish translation, I don't if on others it does), while Manny is speaking to Meche, he asked her if he had never killed someone, on a tone that makes you believe he did.

yeah the same tone is in the english version, but i think its more of a use of comedic indifference than actually insinuating that he killed someone, more likely that he's just so used to scumbag clients that someone who hasnt done any killing is a new thing.

El Virus
12-13-2005, 10:05 AM
Then we've got a disagreement in our hands. I have no actual proof, but something in Nick doesn't scream a Reaper to me. I always thought he was someone who had to walk. On the other hand, if he had been a Reaper, that opens a whole new world of possibilities.

Wait, I'm a real idiot. Forgive my momentary GF-memory loss, but I confused Nick Virago with Domino Hurley :P. It's just that since both of them are YOUR idols ;) , I could not remember who was whom; 'Was it Dom who had a relation with Olivia; and Nick the reaper who harrassed Manny?', that was what must have gone [subconciously] through my mind.

Now that I come to think of your question, it is a strange thing. Give me some time to think about it, though.


yeah the same tone is in the english version, but i think its more of a use of comedic indifference than actually insinuating that he killed someone, more likely that he's just so used to scumbag clients that someone who hasnt done any killing is a new thing.

I never understood the first conversation with Meche/Merche. It got too strange (in the Spanish dub, at least).

VampireNaomi
12-13-2005, 03:31 PM
Wait, I'm a real idiot. Forgive my momentary GF-memory loss, but I confused Nick Virago with Domino Hurley :P. It's just that since both of them are YOUR idols ;) , I could not remember who was whom; 'Was it Dom who had a relation with Olivia; and Nick the reaper who harrassed Manny?', that was what must have gone [subconciously] through my mind.

Now that I come to think of it, it is a strange thing. Give me some time to think about it, though.

Heh, never mind. I doubt anyone can outdo me in being an idiot. Remember how the box has a picture of Domino taking Meche down the stairs? For all these years I somehow looked wrong at it and saw that the woman had red hair and wondered who the hell had made the mistake of putting Eva in Meche's clothes. Only yesterday I realised that what I thought to be hair was only Domino's sleeve. :D

I never understood the first conversation with Meche/Merche. It got too strange (in the Spanish dub, at least).

What happens in the Spanish dub? Any examples? Is she called Merche in it?

El Virus
12-13-2005, 03:44 PM
Remember how the box has a picture of Domino taking Meche down the stairs? For all these years I somehow looked wrong at it and saw that the woman had red hair and wondered who the hell had made the mistake of putting Eva in Meche's clothes. Only yesterday I realised that what I thought to be hair was only Domino's sleeve.

Isn't Eva's 'red thing at the top' a bandana? I never thought of it like that (even though I love red-hair), mainly because they are skeletons (some characters seem to have hair, however).

The box...I lost it...don't remind me of it...



What happens in the Spanish dub? Any examples? Is she called Merche in it?
Well, I think Manny calls her 'Merche' in the dub, but only a couple of times.
I'm quite sure that it is the same with the [original] English version. Basically, my problem was with Manuel asking for any excuse just to NOT give her a Number 9 ticket.
"You haven't killed anyone?"
"No, but I could kill somebody right now, if it helps"
"No, that wouldn't help"
Or something like that...

Oh, and happy birthday!, excuse my 1-day delay (and actually, I'm sure that by the time you read this, two days would have gone by).

heiff
12-17-2005, 04:36 PM
Regarding Manny's questions to Meche: He isn't looking for an excuse, he's looking for a logical explanation. At that point in the conversation, he's already checked the DOD computer, and seen that Meche doesn't qualify for any premium travel package. He couldn't sell her a ticket on the Number 9 even if he wanted to. But since she should qualify, Manny wonders whether he's missed something, so he begins to question her about things she might have done in her life.

I think this is the point at which the story becomes "bigger", in that it starts to become obvious that there's something awry which extends beyond Domino and the boss.

El Virus
12-17-2005, 04:40 PM
Regarding Manny's questions to Meche: He isn't looking for an excuse, he's looking for a logical explanation.

Yes, but that only became clear to me later on, the first time, as I said, was a tad strange (I have the Spanish version, and it varies a bit due to the translation).

heiff
12-17-2005, 06:20 PM
ah, i see - i forgot you were hearing the translation!

evulkhuul
12-19-2005, 07:15 AM
in my opinion(I shouldn't even participate in this topic since I haven't played the game to the end yet :)) I think that Manny didn't do anything wrong in his life but those 'recruiters' of the death wanted somehow revenge his goodness and so they made him a reaper.

don't take me too seriously but I just wanted to open the case from this end of the tale :P

and by the way, you fellas surely seem to know much about GF, nice one mates!

Charie
12-19-2005, 09:00 AM
All right, I hesitated a bit to explain my point of view, but here.

For some reason I've never thought that Reapers were the lowest rank or something. It seems an important job - to fetch newlydead souls to the Land of the Dead. I figure some souls are commonly offered a Reaper job if there's a vacant postion in the DOD and a soul has to work off his time. Then you don't have to search for a job yourself, so becoming a Reaper may be convinient for those willing to understand the Land of the Dead first and after some time to decide either to go find another place or continue building a career in the DOD.

I can't be sure, though, 'cause I played a LONG time ago (that's not the point, of course, I'm still in love with the story and everything GF :) ) with a HIDEOUS dubled dialogues, hence I didn't understand most of the plot. That's also a reason for me to not replay till I find a good copy, which seems unlikely for me ;_; . So prove me wrong, if anything:).

As for why Manny had to work off his time - I never ever thought he was Saint. People like Manny ('very competetive', indeed) are never average, and they use all opportunities wherever they feel like it.
There's a popular (and really good) sci-fi book by Harry Harrison - 'Deathworld' - which I associate with Manny's story a great deal. (Hah, it has just occured to me that even the title has some semblance :) ; by the way, both stories curiously enough start with a tube transfer system's message). The main character Jason DinAlt, for me, is the same type as Manny - and he's a 'professional cheat', as he himself calls his 'profession'. The guy who'll find a way in any situation. So, if pressed, I'd say Manny could do the same - be 'competetive' :) .

I wonder, how he died (my guess is some sort of an accident, like a car crush or something).

__________________________________________________ _______
Sorry for being lengthy and for my dreadful English.

El Virus
12-19-2005, 09:53 AM
As for why Manny had to work off his time - I never ever thought he was Saint. People like Manny ('very competetive', indeed) are never average, and they use all opportunities wherever they feel like it.

Very true.
I think that since this story has a lot to do with the Noir fiction, it might have the character guilty of a situation he did not plan; but every prospect of him being an outlaw is eclipsed by him not remembering what he did.

What do you think about Flores? Do you think he actually deserved a ticket to the Number Nine, or was he really the loser the game made him seem like?

Charie
12-19-2005, 11:29 AM
Why do you think that he doesn't remember what he did? I reckon every soul remembers their past, why wouldn't they?

I always thought there wasn't some Le Grand Sin in Manny's life - there were quite a few:). Though it's always a question what's the actual scale of virtues they use there in the DOD. My opinion is that the most ordinary lifes qualify for a walking stick, hence outstanding (in various meanings of the word) people are destined for something else: NN ticket or a time to work off, for example.
Although this interests nobody:), I'll say I'd perhaps go on foot or work for about a year. I suppose.

What about Flores? By my aforementioned theory, he'd gotten just what he qualified for: an ordinary afterdeath journey due to an ordinary life. Like, was born, lived, loved, cheated the gasometer, worked, died.
Maybe my 'scale of virtues' 's strict, I don't know. Land of the Dead doesn't look horrible enough to consider it a Hell for the terrible sinners only. It looks more like a second chance, even - to show you do deserve the Land of Eternal Rest, after all.

counting_pine
12-19-2005, 12:17 PM
Regarding Manny, I imagine he'd led a less than perfect life - we can see throughout the four years that he's not above things like blackmail, or occasionally taking advantage of people, or taking an interest in more than one woman, or the curse of almost every adventure game character, kleptomania.
I just always assumed he didn't much fancy his travel package and decided to work, so he could afford a better one.

I guess you can think of the Land of the Dead as a kind of purgatory. People who have led good lives can go straight through in four minutes, but the others have to go through the "four year journey of the soul", and we can see that it tests people and changes them. And not just Manny and Meche, but I doubt Celso's ever had to defend himself against killer animals before. And, yes, I suspect being packed in a coffin for four years with nothing to read but a complimentary mug with a pithy phrase on it will change you in some ways too.

I picture Celso as an unachieving, unassertive, modest sort of person. You wouldn't notice him in a crowd, and you'd easily forget him. He maybe has that sort of "invisible" quality, like Mr Cust from ABC Murders. What kind of afterlife would you think fate should have in store for him? It's an interesting question, but I don't think he would have had a Double N ticket.

BTW, has anyone noticed that there's a picture of his wife on the wall of the LSA headquarters in year four?

Charie
12-19-2005, 12:57 PM
counting_pine,
Wow, about Celso - that was inspired. I'm starting to consider falling in love with that guy:).
But why do you think he didn't get his true travel package? The DOD can't be that crooked, I think, so as to sell wrong destinies to everyone.

I guess you can think of the Land of the Dead as a kind of purgatory.
Just like I said, a second chance; for the villains to redeem themselves and for those average to show what they are worth of.
It only makes sense, for those are People who define the Land. The Land of the Dead is a dangerous and corrupted place thanks to all baddies settled there; one could assume that one of the benefits of the Ninth Underworld is a really pure society.

I suspect being packed in a coffin for four years
Uhuh *glumly*, four. Feels more like three, actually.

<about Manny> or taking an interest in more than one woman
0.0 When was that???!!?
And, people, just tell me, why do you think Manny did qualify for something other than working in the LotD? Don't you have a taste for really bad men))? From the introduction to the game I understood he would have prefered to be able to get out of LotD at any cost to working - before he became involved and got an aim, that is:).

has anyone noticed that there's a picture of his wife on the wall of the LSA headquarters in year four?
Really? Which one is that?

VampireNaomi
12-19-2005, 01:18 PM
Wow, this conversation has really advanced while I wasn't looking. I don't know which points to address, but I'll give a shot to some, even if someone may have already cleared them.

1. Manny is stuck at the DOD and did something bad

At least this is what the game led me to believe. In a conversation with Domino Manny asks what he did wrong to get stuck at being a Reaper. Domino throws the question back and Manny replies that he doesn't know what he did that was horrible enough to condemn him as a Reaper.

Also, in an earlier conversation with Eva it's made clear that the two of them can't just leave the city and remain in one piece. I think these two points make it fairly obvious that working for the DOD is not voluntary -- that's also mentioned in the intro when Manny tells Celso why he can't leave.

2. Manny was interested in multiple women

Anyone remember Carla? The two obviously had something going on while Manny should have concentrated on looking for Meche. ;)

3. Celso didn't get what he deserved

Salvador told Manny that all of his clients qualified for better packages than they got.

Oh, and I don't think that most of the people in the Land of the Dead are working off their time. I see it the way that only those at the DOD have a debt to pay. Everyone else (everybody in Rubacava, for example) was made to walk, drive or whatever, and has just decided to stay in one place and seek happiness there instead of continuing their journey. Or they may be saving enough money to get a better travelling option.

I probably forgot something important, so feel free to correct me.

counting_pine
12-19-2005, 01:18 PM
But why do you think he didn't get his true travel package? The DOD can't be that crooked, I think, so as to sell wrong destinies to everyone.I wouldn't rule out that possibility. But who knows, maybe Celso genuinely did earn that walking stick, maybe that's the reward you get for a lifetime of being generally mediochre. I guess it depends on whether you see it as Manny being cheated out of the best clients, or all the clients being cheated out of the best travel packages.

0.0 When was that???!!?
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but there were a couple of things in year two. Like his relationship with Carla (and her metal detector). And the way Lupe says, "you might wanna mingle with this one, she sounds like your type".
Discuss. :)

Really? Which one is that?
Keep an eye out during the cut scene where they return to El Marrow in year 4. When Sal enters, you can see a couple of pictures on the wall behind him. One of them is the same picture Celso gave Manny at the end of year 1.

EDIT: It seems I have been pipped at the post, so to speak. Just ignore half my post, VampireNaomi has probably floccinaucinihilipilificated it.

VampireNaomi
12-19-2005, 01:27 PM
I guess it depends on whether you see it as Manny being cheated out of the best clients, or all the clients being cheated out of the best travel packages.

I think I see it as a bith of both. Domino is getting all the good clients while Manny sinks lower and lower, and as a result all the good clients go through Dommy boy who takes their just rewards.

However, I doubt Celso qualified for a very good package. If he had deserved a Double N ticket he would have ended up at the Edge of the World with the rest of the saints. He probably just was a walking stick kind of guy.

EDIT:

EDIT: It seems I have been pipped at the post, so to speak. Just ignore half my post, VampireNaomi has probably floccinaucinihilipilificated it.

Always fun to have more than one account on the same thing. Also, is the one in bold a real word?

counting_pine
12-19-2005, 01:39 PM
Always fun to have more than one account on the same thing. Also, is the one in bold a real word?
Absolutely! :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floccinaucinihilipilification
What I was basically saying was that your post made some of mine worthless. Perhaps a bit overdramatic, but opportunities to use a word like that are hard to ignore :D

VampireNaomi
12-19-2005, 01:44 PM
Absolutely! :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floccinaucinihilipilification
What I was basically saying was that your post made some of mine worthless. Perhaps a bit overdramatic, but opportunities to use a word like that are hard to ignore :D

Ow, that's too intelligent for me. :D My head starts hurting. Can you pronounce that word correctly?

Charie
12-19-2005, 02:40 PM
EDIT: I'm very slow, so perhaps the following will be sort of inconvenient. Still, I want to post it and I will:). I'm really, really sorry - and really really slow.


VampireNaomi,
first of all, I may be completely wrong about everything, because I have to rely on playing the game five or six years ago. Around that, since I don't remember exactly; also, once I tried to replay, but was disgusted by the doubled sound - which is the second reason for being mistaken so often. Allah, I need a normal copy!

Ok.
1. DOD being a place for the terrible sinners doesn't make sense to me because:
-- a) it makes Manny, Eva, Copal - even Domino - really deeply horrible persons, while they aren't (Domino is questionable, of course:) );
-- b) it means the highly important (I can't help but think it is very important) job is left for, well, highly unreliable employees;
-- c) I personally don't have much faith in the human race and in my opinion, even such a huge establishment as DOD couldn't contain all terrible sinners at once.
As for all references about "stuck here at the DOD" - I've always understood that as "stuck here in the LotD", with mentioning the DOD only as an example.
...Damn. I'm really confused now. That dialogue with Domino could be viewed as a one big banter, and then it all means what I imagine it means; or it may actually contain a grain of truth - which makes your vision conceivable. The thing is - who knows what that was really about? Not me, definitely.

2. It has never occured to me that 'not able to leave the town' bit could be understood literally. Differences in perception are nice:). After all, Salvador had his secret tunnel and all. I thought It was just very risky and hard...

3. I thought Salvador told Manny that all his best clients (who were cheated and got nothing) qualified, not really 'all clients'. Besides, Domino did in fact get better cliens, he was helped in that by authorities (as in, Hector-->Copal-->Domino:) ). Manny himself told Celso that 'only few qualify' for a short trip. Feels to me like the truth: do you know many Saints around you?

4. People settling in placies on their way to the Underworld N9 - uhuh, that's the fact. I just think that there are quite a lot of sinners among them. Olivia, for instance - I can't imagine her getting a walking stick. And Nick. Er... Bogen. However... Damn-damn-damn, I'm more confused than before. That whole ocean of possibilities! :)

5. Carla and Manny = ? -??? What did they say that made you think that? I suppose that was another fault of dreadful double:(. I remember Carla being interested in Manny (just like the majority of the game's female population), but not vice-versa.
Besides, it is possible to love somebody and just... well... amuse yourself with somebody else - completely understandable situation, ...not that I thought Manny could do that having Meche. Even Lola abandoned all hopes, after all:). Is is me who'll go straight to Hell with such morals)).

*sigh* If I only could play it and check it all myself.

Charie
12-19-2005, 03:34 PM
counting_pine,
nothing was... er... as you so accurately put it, 'floccinaucinihilipilificated'. Uh, I'm not even trying to pronaunce it. I can see why you know this lingual horror now, with it being the longest non-technical word and all, but it's just not right for the normal languages to have such word-pythons. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, or how did that go? ;) Though that one I love :).

maybe Celso genuinely did earn that walking stick, maybe that's the reward you get for a lifetime of being generally mediochre
Yep, that's basically my idea. Well, the stick is something - and four years when you're already dead isn't that much, so I figure you still have to be, well, second-rate good, to earn it.

whether you see it as Manny being cheated out of the best clients, or all the clients being cheated out of the best travel packages
The latter had never been even a possibility for me to consider, earlier. As I understood it, Hector and Co made sure Manny doesn't get any Saints at all (since Manny would immediately start to suspect a crooked game, as he did in Meche's case), though they still enabled a fool-proof on his computer, just in case. Perhaps Manny did accidentally get a few car-types, but not many, I think. Or he would end up the second Limones all too soon - and Hector and Co had learned their lesson.
In addition: Manny wasn't surprised at Celso's fate at all. Celso doesn't strike me as some amazingly altruistic person or whatever, as well.:)


As for the picture of Celso's wife: I'll keep that in mind, when I get the game. Definitely. Or maybe some kind soul would provide me with the screenshots, 'cause I'm very curious about these little details.

VampireNaomi
12-19-2005, 03:58 PM
One thing I have to say before continuing this debate is that I can't even remember when I last time had this much fun at the forums. :)

Charie, the DOD being the place for the worst sinners makes sense to me because of the dialogues in the game. I can't give you exact quotes now because I've got the game on another computer, but let's see how well I remember some of them.

In the intro

Manny: Oh, you're going to have a great trip. Wish I was going.

Celso: Why don't you? You could give me a lift.

Manny: Oh, I can't leave here until I've worked off a little debt to the powers that be.

Celso: Community service, huh? Well, I guess there're folks worse off than me.

In my opinion this proves that working at the DOD is sort of a punishment for something you did wrong in life.

Talking to Domino

(my memory on this one isn't as good, so it's not an exact quote)

Manny: So what did you do to end up here?

Domino: You mean, what's the secret to my success?

Manny: No, I mean how did you screw up in life to get stuck here?

Domino: I could easily ask the same question of you.

Manny: I can't remember what I did (I know he doesn't say exactly that, but I cant' remember it better right now)

Domino: How convinient. Well, neither do I.

This conversation again proves that a job at the DOD is not voluntary nor a very good thing.

As for the points you raised, here are my speculations:

a) I always assumed that they were sinners. They may not seem like that now (with the exception of Domino and Copal) but who knows how long they've been there. They may have had time to soften a little. Well, to be honest, this is a point that has been confusing me as well because I firmly believe that DOD job is a punishment. ;)

b) We give community service jobs to sinners in our life as well. Besides, when your only options are working and remaining stuck forever, I think even the worst of the worst find the inspiration to move the scythe.

c) There are thousands of people dying all over the world as we speak, so I'm sure there are more Reapers than what we see. The DOD building is a huge skyscraper, it probably holds several hundred workers at least. And it's also possible that it's only one department. There may be more in other cities and areas since I doubt that every person who dies ends up in El Marrow. There just wouldn't be enough room. So in my eyes, enough job openings for the worst.

And now for the second part. Well, certainly there is no magical barrier or anything that stops Manny from leaving town, but the exchange with Celso shows me that there is at least some regulations about the fact.

Thirdy, If I remember right, Salvador told Manny that all of his clients qualified for something better. I don't have an exact quote with me right now, so shoot me if I'm wrong.

As for the fourth fact, that's one of the most interesting mysteries. Sinners like Nick and Olivia certainly deserved to be a Reaper more than Manny, at least in my opinion. Yet they aren't. If I knew the answer to this fact I'd be a lot happier and I don't think this thread would exist. :D I don't know how to explain this myself.

And then Carla and Manny. Well, it's been a while since I played that part, but it always seemed to me that they had something going on. Carla mentioned that Manny used to come and visit her on a regular basis, but then stopped. They didn't say that they had something going on, but the innuendo was there.

Phew, I wonder how many typos I managed to include in that one?

EDIT: Just remembered something. At the beginning of the game Manny's goal is to get his job back so that he can work off his debt. He says that himself to either Salvador or Eva or someone. If he wasn't stuck at the DOD, why should he do that? Why not just skip town and go somewhere else since he obviously had landed himself in trouble? Why bother getting back a job he obviously hated?

EDIT2: God, I've got an exam tomorrow morning and I should be asleep. If I fail it's all your fault. :D Anyway, I just remembered another thing. Not a fact, but more of an opinion. To me Grim Fandango was not only Manny's journey, but also Manny's Journey, if you know what I mean. In the beginning he's all for "Love is for the living and I only want my job back blah blah" but in the end he has fallen in love and done good deeds to help people because of selfless reasons. So, I always viewed GF as a character's journey to becoming a better person, as well as the crime and corruption thing. Having Manny not be a bad person in the beginning sort of cheapens that appeal of the story to me. But that's only me and not a fact. Just felt like adding it.

El Virus
12-19-2005, 04:50 PM
Nice to see some well-deserved activity around here.

One thing I have to say before continuing this debate is that I can't even remember when I last time had this much fun at the forums.

That hurts, a bit.
-------------------

Okay, now where to begin. I think that all of the things debated are plot holes, not thought about by the writers*, but if you care about symbology (I do), then it is all worth discussing.

I think you are all taking the Land of the Dead as the concept of Heaven and Hell, which is a concept appearing in many religions, but not in all of them. Remember that it is based on Mayan mythology, where this issue is much more complex. Let me investigate a little, and reply later about this.
Keep the thing about the debt in mind, for it might be very relevant.

It would be a bit of a hipocresy and unfair to give people their NN Tickets and the like just based on how useful these people were. [EDITED].

To me Grim Fandango was not only Manny's journey, but also Manny's Journey, if you know what I mean
Perdón?...Was that on purpose?
But yeah, I know what you mean. It was basically the same with me.

Let me read all the thread, and then I'll give proper responses.

*Have I told you the anecdote about "The Big Sleep"? If I haven't, then read ahead (you are not forced to). "TBS" was a 1948 film noir movie based on the book of the same title by Raymond Chandler (It starred Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart). Anyway, the story is more than complicated, it is almost un-followable (?); so as nobody understood who the killer was (mainly beacuse everybody had an aliby, or was not present, etc.), Chandler was asked to explain, only to reply that he did not know either.
What's the point of this, you ask? well...the importance is not always on the story itself, but on the characters and their interactions.

EDIT: I removed a small paragraph, due to anti-religious content which might have seemed controversial.
Edited again, due to some typos.
Damn, I keep editing it.

counting_pine
12-19-2005, 05:57 PM
@VampireNaomi, good luck with the exam, hope you're well prepared. No doubt you generally know better than to get sucked into a forum thread the night before an exam, but in any case, your next post had better be telling us how the exam went : )

@El Virus, so, your point is that we shouldn't worry about the minor details? That's probably true. But do you think Tim Schafer just ignored them, rather than have them all worked out somehow? I don't think I really want to believe that.

El Virus
12-19-2005, 09:03 PM
@El Virus, so, your point is that we shouldn't worry about the minor details? That's probably true. But do you think Tim Schafer just ignored them, rather than have them all worked out somehow? I don't think I really want to believe that.

No, not at all. I said:

I think that all of the things debated are plot holes, not thought about by the writers, but if you care about symbology (I do), then it is all worth discussing.

I have no idea whether Mr. Schafer had them planned out or not; either way, they are very interesting. They are not extremely important things to the story itself, I wouldn't mind (or be surprised for that matter) if they hadn't planned them, after all these are the kind of things the player can think for himself.

Oh, and as counting_pine said, good luck to-morrow Naomi.


Once again, I'll read all the messages later; if you mind.

Charie
12-20-2005, 03:39 AM
First of all, let me apologize for bieng so unforgivably verbose. It's a bane of mine.
Second, I wish you all good luck with your exam, VampireNaomi, sorry I made you stay for so long at night.
Finally, help me Allah not to get lost in these posts :).

__________________________________________________

VampireNaomi,
I certainly don't remember the dialogues myself, so I check it all in the game script from GFN or NW. Now, about the dialogues you referred to:
In the intro - In my current and very unreliable opinion, it shows that working in the LotD 'is sort of a punishment for something you did wrong in life', as you said about the DOD.
By the way, what are those 'powers that be' Manny mentions? I was never certain.
Talking to Domino - the same as I wrote above. 'Here' for me was always the land, not the establishment.
However... I suppose I could accept the idea of sinners going to the DOD (since it would make supervising their success easier - for whoever bothers to supervise, which is the question in itself), if not for the great population of El Marrow. I simply can't imagine the majority of the El Marrow citizens working for the same foundation, however big it might be.

Also, I see the Land of the Dead as a relatively small place with a linear settlement layout, as in: the metropolis of El Marrow, where all the newlydead souls arrive and either get stuck or proceed --> Rubacava, a port town with the temporary attractions for those waiting for the cruise or for sailors --> Puerto Zapato - some place to get prepared for the last trial, so to speak (I wonder what Puerto Zapato is like...) - and that's it, basically. I figured only those with some relation to the mayan history and such go to the 8th Underworld (which fits into my supposition that all people go to where they believe they should go). After all, the majority of souls Manny meets are Mexican or close.

Next, the DOD seems to me to be the only institution of a kind in the LotD. It is certainly the center of all things related to the interaction with the LotL, although I still didn't come to any solid cunclusion regarding the existance of some huge Ministry in the LotD, with DOD, just as you've said, being only a department. Oh, well...

Er, my point was supposed to be this: I still think there's not enough place in the DOD for the worst kind. Why would so many other souls, not working at the DOD, stay in the LotD if they had the opportunity to go to the 9th Underworld? One would think they had gotten their share of dirt in the LotL.
__________________________________________________

~ You wrote 'we give community service jobs to sinners in our life as well'. First of all, we don't know for sure whether they are sinners or not; secondly, out Fates don't really depend on their decisions and accuracy.

~ About special difficulties leaving the town - I agree, though I fail to imagine what they might be.

~ Next, Salvador's and Manny's dialogue went like this:
Salvador: Have you ever wondered why your clients, even your BEST clients never seem to qualify for the packages you know they deserve?
Manny: Yes, my last client in particular... Meche.
Salvador: Well, they all DID qualify, Manuel. Especially her. But somehow, somebody with access to the files has stolen their just rewards, their sweet hereafters...
I understand this 'all' bit as a figurative talk, meaning, as I have said before, that Manny's best clients qualified, not literally 'all'. I would rather think that even Domino's clients weren't all Saints without exception - because Saints have to really be very rare.

~ On the Nick, Olivia and the others problem. The root of it lies, I suppose, in the whole idea of 'working off the time' which El Virus had threatened to explain:).
It has always confused me a bit that Manny seemed certain he had to sell enough NN tickets to be free to go to the LoER. I see it as a reference to the working agreement with the DOD.
In my opinion, sinners have to work off their time, maybe not exact amount of it but enough for it to provide a second chance. Hence there are common working agreements in the establishments of the LotD, and in Manny's case it was to work at the DOD the time enough to sell some stated amount of the best travel packages ('cause no one can be certain about the Saints' arrivals frequency) and then to be free to get out of the LotD.
So, if Manny lost his current job he would have to comply to some other agreement with some other firm in the LotD to work off his debt, and that would have been almost similar to starting everything all over again.

I suppose Olivia and the others, especially in Rubacava, didn't 'work off' anything at all due to the hopes to get a crooked ticket or just not believing in the LoER anymore. Perhaps constant watching masses of souls come and go, never returning to tell the tale, in the town of an easy income, bribes and casinos, can make you a bit sceptical.

~ On the Carla and Manny's question. I still don't see any innuendo there. After all, Manny could socialize with whomever he wanted, couldn't he? Carla-type women are made for such kind of interaction, when you need something they have or have a spare minute for an occasional idle (very idle) talk.
__________________________________________________

Finally, as an answer to your last paragraph (about Manny's journey being 'Manny's Journey').
I personally have never believed in Manny's "love is for the living and I only want my job back blah blah", as you put it, line. Uhuh, in reality the 'blah blah blah' is an emphasis here, I reckon)).
I've never thought Manny was a bad person in the beginning, and as well I didn't see him good in the end. To my mind, he had hardly changed at all, save for the revelations about himself. Commiting sins doesn't instantly make you a bad man, or so I believe. This symbolical meaning of the GF you imply is all new to me.
As I've always seen it, Manny (or whoever, for that matter) had already had a constant personality, sort of (here comes the question how I define 'personality', I realize, but I couldn't explain it even if I tried); he just made different decisions in different situations. I doubt one can show many virtues working in the dull management.

All in all, I think it was a Journey of remembering that he still was a good person, not becoming one. For me, Manny never was bad at all. :)

Charie
12-20-2005, 03:59 AM
El Virus,
Concerning the anecdote - I've heared the same story about something else as well. Besides, it actually happens all the time in my favourite genre of arts, surrealism. Maybe you're right and GF creator didn't produce some grand explanation of everything about the Grim Underworld. It even seems likely (and is much more interesting:) ).

You are right, of course, about at least me being too used to the Heaven and Hell concepts. I don't know a thing about the Mayan believes and am too lazy too explore. So I'm definitely looking forward to your explanation very much.

By the way, don't remove that intriguing 'controversial anti-religious content' next time, maybe? I'm curious now. :)

VampireNaomi
12-20-2005, 09:57 AM
Thanks to everyone who wished me luck to the exam. I guess I did alright.

That hurts, a bit.

Heh. Well, you've got to admit this is the first long debate we've had in a really long time. ;)

I don't think it was necessary to remove the anti-religious paragraph. Everyone has a right to their opinion and if someone is insulted by it, it's their problem.

Also, thanks for using TBS as an example. I've been about to see/read it for a long while and your comment made me certain that it'll be good.

First of all, let me apologize for bieng so unforgivably verbose. It's a bane of mine.

Eh, I don't think you've done anything wrong. This has been a very civil conversation from all sides.

I guess we're looking at the same source material from two different perspectives. Everyone has raised good points.

By the way, what are those 'powers that be' Manny mentions? I was never certain.

I've got no idea either. Yet another mystery. :D Perhaps some gods/spirits related to Mayas or Aztecs. Though I hope Tezcatlipoca isn't involved.

I figured only those with some relation to the mayan history and such go to the 8th Underworld (which fits into my supposition that all people go to where they believe they should go). After all, the majority of souls Manny meets are Mexican or close.

That makes sense and sort of clears your point about there not being enough room in the DOD for all the baddies. If only Mexican or so people go to the 8th Underworld, there's not that much bad people to worry about. But it still sounds a little much, like you said earlier. Hmm...

Why would so many other souls, not working at the DOD, stay in the LotD if they had the opportunity to go to the 9th Underworld? One would think they had gotten their share of dirt in the LotL.

Membrillo mentions this in Year 2. He says that many people have lost their hope and no longer believe in the 9th Underworld. I guess it's very similar to our world where many people have decided that religion offers them nothing and don't search for the kind of spiritual happiness that some religious people find important.

I understand this 'all' bit as a figurative talk, meaning, as I have said before, that Manny's best clients qualified, not literally 'all'. I would rather think that even Domino's clients weren't all Saints without exception - because Saints have to really be very rare.

Ah, you've got me there. I remembered the quote a little wrong. You were right about this point.

On the Carla and Manny's question. I still don't see any innuendo there. After all, Manny could socialize with whomever he wanted, couldn't he? Carla-type women are made for such kind of interaction, when you need something they have or have a spare minute for an occasional idle (very idle) talk.

I guess we just see the subtext in a different way. For all I know, you could be right. ;)

I've never thought Manny was a bad person in the beginning, and as well I didn't see him good in the end. To my mind, he had hardly changed at all, save for the revelations about himself. Commiting sins doesn't instantly make you a bad man, or so I believe. This symbolical meaning of the GF you imply is all new to me.

I guess this is another point on which we just have to agree to disagree since I think both are valid opinions. I think Manny was a little selfish in the beginning. He stole Domino's client, arranged an illegal modification to a company car to meet his own needs (though Domino was playing an equally crooked game by sending Manny's driver away), didn't really give a damn about the LSA and he probably spent quite a lot of energy on working on Calavera Café while he should have been looking for Meche. However, in Year 3 he's already trying to save a bunch of souls that he has never seen before.

But your point is just as valid. Also, your idea of sins not making one a bad person is definitely a point I hadn't considered before.

All in all, this has been a great discussion. I don't know what else to add since most of the things that we still haven't cleared are the kind that only Tim Schafer himself can probably give a definite answer to.

I hope I didn't forget to address some important point in anyone's posts.

Charie
12-20-2005, 12:44 PM
VampireNaomi,
May I inquire what was the subject of your exam? I'm curious what it was we've all here wished you good luck with :).

I hope Tezcatlipoca isn't involved.
What did Tezcatlipoca did to you you hate him so much:)? I've just looked him up in the Internet and he sounds like a great guy. However, I confess to not understanding a thing about South American Ancient Civilizations.

there's not that much bad people to worry about. But it still sounds a little much, like you said earlier. Hmm...
"There's not much, though there's much" and "hmm" are my thought exactly).

<Membrillo> says that many people have lost their hope and no longer believe in the 9th Underworld. I guess it's very similar to our world where many people have decided that religion offers them nothing and don't search for the kind of spiritual happiness that some religious people find important.
That's true for some of working-offs, but doesn't seem likely for those who had to go on foot - they are offered something. Here, in the LotL, we don't have the opportunity they undoubtedly have there, the opportunity one would hardly refuse, I gather. It's not about some vague 'spiritual happiness', though, I think the Eternal Rest is what appeals to the majority of souls most. I would certainly like that, anyway.

This remindes me. In the Calavera Cafe, El Virus had mentioned a movie - 'Stalker' by Andrei Tarkovsky, I don't know if you've seen it. I'd define the genre of it as a parable of sorts. The plot goes basically like this: in the middle of an overly dangerous and restricted area there's a Room which fulfils your deepest heart's desire. In the end, when the characters of the movie finally reach the Room, they don't know anymore if they really want to enter.
It seems a bit reminiscent of the LotD and the Portal to the 9th Underworld to me. I just tried to imagine what it may feel like to enter something as mysterious and unpredictable as the Ninth Underworld after all hardship you'd endured on the way. I wonder if I'd choose to stay for a while in a solid and already well known LotD before proceeding, I'm not really what you'd call brave. Maybe some of the souls don't have the guts to step through the Portal as well?
...Sorry, this was probably inane.

we just have to agree to disagree
*shakes hands with you* :)

I think Manny was a little selfish in the beginning. He stole Domino's client, arranged an illegal modification to a company car to meet his own needs <...>, didn't really give a damn about the LSA and he probably spent quite a lot of energy on working on Calavera Café while he should have been looking for Meche.
You call stealing a client and upgrading a car selfish? I'd call that's accommodative, 't's all :).
As for the supposedly misplaced efforts, I just figured he didn't have much hope in successfully combing the Petrified Forest for Meche. The Forest seems to be really big and labyrinthine, perhaps he'd have gotten lost himself should he search for Meche there. I gather you agree he honestly wanted to find her (for whatever reasons), don't you?
I guess the Calavera Cafe served Manny as both a business to occupy him while waiting (that would be only natural for such a competitive person) and a really huge road sign: 'Meche, I'm here!'

Also, your idea of sins not making one a bad person is definitely a point I hadn't considered before.
Uhuh, that's exactly what all sinners believe in :giggle1: .


And to conclude, once again about Carla: I've seen quite a lot of the same kind of dealing with the same kind of women, so that's probably why I think there was nothing but flirtatious implications going on.

VampireNaomi
12-20-2005, 01:58 PM
May I inquire what was the subject of your exam? I'm curious what it was we've all here wished you good luck with .

German, the most beautiful language I've ever heard. I hope to be fluent one day.

What did Tezcatlipoca did to you you hate him so much? I've just looked him up in the Internet and he sounds like a great guy. However, I confess to not understanding a thing about South American Ancient Civilizations.

I'm no expert either and have done no research. However, he was portrayed as an evil god whose coming would mean world destruction in Broken Sword II, a decent adventure game. I guess I just believed that the game was based on facts. :D

Your point about the movie 'Stalker' and it's similarity to Land of the Dead vs. Eternal Rest makes perfect sense. Thanks for bringing that up. I don't think I ever considered it from that point of view before. And it wasn't inane at all. I have similar views about the afterlife Christianity teaches about. Somehow Heaven just sounds really boring and I don't think I'm the only one having slight doubts about it.

And to conclude, once again about Carla: I've seen quite a lot of the same kind of dealing with the same kind of women, so that's probably why I think there was nothing but flirtatious implications going on.

Entirely possible. Also, I think my opinion may have been tainted by the fact that I like the idea of them together, even for a short relationship. When I was writing one of my fanfics I tried pairing Manny with her and I guess the idea has been stuck in my head ever since. In conclusion, I'm ready to admit that your opinion is probably a little more valid.

El Virus
12-20-2005, 11:23 PM
From hereby onwards, you are warned that this is going to be long.

Forgive my time to reply, but I had to work, then I got stuck on a traffic jam, and had to do other things.
---------------

Carla’s relation with Manny is there. Just as in the Maltese Falcon, where one can notice a sort of attraction between Spade and his secretary (this is on a lesser degree).

Heh. Well, you've got to admit this is the first long debate we've had in a really long time.

True, at least on the Land of the Dead. It's nice every once in a while.

By the way, don't remove that intriguing 'controversial anti-religious content' next time, maybe? I'm curious now.

I don't think it was necessary to remove the anti-religious paragraph. Everyone has a right to their opinion and if someone is insulted by it, it's their problem.
Yeah, but it was a bit off topic; I’ll remember this for the next time, however.

Also, thanks for using TBS as an example. I've been about to see/read it for a long while and your comment made me certain that it'll be good.

I’m not a big Chandler fan myself, but the movie is quite good, especially due to the performers.

I confess to not understanding a thing about South American Ancient Civilizations.

Feel free to ask, for I live amongst the modern ones.

The Mayan saw the cosmos as a structure that consisted of three levels or parts. On the first one, the top, the blue sphere that was sustained by the Bacabs, where the astronomical phenomena occurred, particularly the daily movement of the Sun. On the mid level, one could find the world of the man, in which all the aspects of their life took place (the Earth was seen as a big squared surface, whose edges pointed to the cardinal points [like the North, which was seen as a cold and dark place, etc.] where the Pauhtunes where). The last level (located under the water), the inferior one, was occupied by the underworld or Xibalba (it would translate “place of fear”, for you to have an idea of the Mayan view towards it). In this frightening place, there was a constant struggle between the Sun, after its daily movement, and the infernal deities & beings; the latter were usually beaten, and the Sun began its course again. It is still unknown whether the Xibalbans where dead human beings, or special people. There were six places, which served as tests for the newcomers; these were, the dark house. The cold house, the jaguar house, the hot house, the razor house, and last but not least, the bat house (each of them filled with their respective threat). There were also other tests, like blood-rivers and several routes to take. Xibalba was lead by Hun-Came (One Death) and Vucum-Came (Seven-Death), the rest of the 12 rulers were demons; they could decide to bring pain and suffering to the person they wanted. These gods were finally beaten by two brothers, known as the Hero Twins, who cheated them into their victory, and thus freed the world from the sorrow of the underworld.

No matter how many things I read about this, there is no explanation of their after-life beliefs; what makes me think that the creators of GF took the freedom to alter it (not that there is a problem, it is even better like this), or that they went for Aztec culture instead (which does not have a clear explanation either).

Of course, Mayan belief is much more extensive, and it is probably more complex than any other culture (at least what remains of it). The problem with it is the many versions one may find of it, none of those complete. What is so fascinating about this civilization is the way in which they disappeared, still without a clear cause.

The walking stick is a very interesting symbol. Think about it; you have just died, and you arrived to a place which you had no idea existed. You are confused, yet anxious. A man who presents himself as a “travel agent” tells you that you are not good enough to deserve a decent redemption (in other words, that you wasted your whole life). He hands you over a simple stick, which has nothing but a compass in the handle; is that all fate has to give you?, all you can aspire for? . But the worst still awaits; you now have to endure a four-year walk, throughout a land which not only do you not know, but which is plagued by dangers that might end your ‘death’. Yet, you keep on walking, with a bitter-sweet feeling, scared and angry at the same time, but over all, you are at a new place such as when you were born. But you do not have your parents or relatives to help you, just a walking stick.

Sure, it is easy to take a boat trip along the Land of the Dead, or drive through it, or better still, take the Number Nine “which only employs four minutes instead of four years”. But, what about walking your way? I think those with the walking stick are the kind of people which society should be thanking, but instead we forget. Warriors; brave people. Those who stayed at El Marrow are the ones who are just too scared to go on, and so have lost hope in the Ninth heaven.

The kind of moral values and strength you need to have to accomplish that four year walk is incredible; I cannot picture myself doing it, yet I can picture myself qualifying for the stick.

To shorten it up, we shouldn’t see people like Celso as losers, but as heroes. The man was ripped-off twice, yet he found his wife and he might even have even finished the trip (he wanted to cheat and give up, however). He just kept on going.

You can see the Number Nine as a reward; or you might see it as I do, a simple solution, almost equivalent to suicide. One might argue that those who accept rewards are people who only acted to get them; after all, I have heard (and know) about many people who did the most heroic things imaginable, and yet got no reward, in some cases they were not even thanked.

Now, talking about train tickets; if these were given based on how many things a person achieved, and leaving sticks to those who didn’t get much, the LotD would be no paradise (it would be more unfair than life, on a way). For instance, think about poor John Smith, who died poor and alone; he might have had a low paying job, yet he gave half of his wage to others who needed it more, but since he had no money he couldn’t buy a big house, get a nice car or get the education he needed to have a career or a family, he achieved nothing, but he was a kind-hearted person. And now, let’s think about Mr. Knight, per say; he has a high paying job (around $2,000,000 a year), he is the owner of a well-known international shoe factory, he has a nice car and he is probably married; oh, but he is no saint, he used to exploit workers in Indonesia, pay millions to celebrities for the sake of publicity and over-price his shoes. To your judgement, who deserves the train, and who deserves the walking stick (for this matter, being thrown from the railway in flames)? The mediocre poor feller or the bastard of the executive?


About suicide, might Mr. Calavera have killed himself, thus making the DOD force him to pay a debt for the years he must have kept living? This comes together with the “attitude he had towards life” comment of mine.

By the way, who rules the Land of the Dead? Or who is the deity behind it all?

I have answered many of the things in the thread amongst these paragraphs, just look for it. If I have left anything aside, I’ll take care of it tomorrow, I have an acute headache right now.
Now, meditate around my greatness stupidity.

Thank you for your time.

jokemaster
12-21-2005, 12:17 AM
I think Celso would've qualified for a car or at least a bike.

And I like the suicide idea. Or maybe he was an accomplice to a white-collar crime.

VampireNaomi
12-21-2005, 01:35 AM
*claps* El Virus, you're brilliant! That post of yours had to be the best thing I've ever read on these forums. I adore the way you analyzed the justification of what people get, and what the walking stick means. It brought a lot more light to the entire matter. That should be printed out and framed. :D

And suicide is definitely a worthy option. How come nobody thought of it before?

Also, thanks for your info on Mayan beliefs. It was very interesting and useful to read.

Charie
12-21-2005, 11:17 AM
I have to apologize, this will be too long as well. I am just not able to express my opinion shortly:( :(.

VampireNaomi
You are the first person I've met who thinks German is the most beautiful language of all, you know. Wierd. Though I agree it sounds great when sung.

Somehow Heaven just sounds really boring and I don't think I'm the only one having slight doubts about it.
I suppose the Christian afterlife 'sounds boring', as you said, because the myth of it isn't detaited and complicated enough. Or at least I've never heared of any developed structure of the Christian afterlife. There's always Dante Alighieri and, perhaps, some others, but if I'm not mistaken it's considered a fiction, not an officially accepted concept.
Besides, an intricate idea of the Thirteen Skies and the Nine Underworlds sounds quite romantic and exotic for us practical earthly people.

I think my opinion may have been tainted by the fact that I like the idea of them together, even for a short relationship
I see:). On my part, I've never liked Carla, I think she's really boring. The question is, how did Manny see her: as you do or as I? For me, the answer to this is obvious)).


El Virus
Carla’s relation with Manny is there. Just as in the Maltese Falcon
I haven't seen the Maltese Falcon, so I don't understand what you mean here. Could you please explain, maybe?

There's no doubt the creators of GF altered whatever sources of ideas they had, that's why it is called a creative work and not some scientific exploration (or else they would end up with a Mayan Encyclopedia, not that it would be unwelcome). It's just that uncovering those sources is... enlightening, in the least.
What you said about the disappearing of the Mayan Civilization still remaining an unsolved enigma sounds very tempting. I'm starting to feel that possessing all these books on SA Antient Civilizations and being too lazy to at least skim through them is a real shame.

Now, regarding the other points you explained...


Additional thoughts on the trial of a walking stick.
First of all, while I agree that the unfortunate walking-stick type souls are compelled to begin their journey in an entirely new wold alone and confused, 'like babies', I'd like to add that the society in the LotD is very similar to that one in the LotL, plus, the newlydead souls are mostly fully grown people with quite an experience and capacity, to some extent or the other, at least. This means they have a good chance to accommodate rather quickly.

Secondly, on my theory, there have to be quite a lot of walking-stick types: people of average virtues, people with the contradictory character traits, 'no commision low-life cases', and, as I see it, those souls who had worked off their time in the LotD without any great achievements but still earned a trip. These souls are all very different, with their own reasons, merits and demerits; hence they all have different motivations to go on a trip: some, like Celso, calmly accept what Fate has in stock for them and proceed to the best of their ability, others, perhaps, are driven by curiousity or boredom, somebody may fervently want to get their Eternal Rest at any cost.

Hmmm... This was, just as I have said, an addition. The idea of some people being too cowardly to even start the journey makes a perfect sense. Thus, we may consider getting a walking stick the first trial of a walking stick, right?
Those a bit more courageous or a bit more stupid than average wouldn't even notice it, I suppose.


The heroism of one Celso Flores.
Celso Flores, in my opinion, is a kind of guy one would describe, er, 'good'. And then forget about him. Yes, he certainly is not a coward and sometimes can go out of his way - when something he holds most dear is concerned. Yet, I imagine, he wouldn't worry too much about the fates of the others around him or the, well, Fates of the World, so to speak. Mostly, his course of living* is submitting to what he's given, making the best he can of that or gladly accepting something easier - if offered.

Is he what you may call a hero? Here we encounter the controversial question as to what does the term 'hero' really mean. Being brave and being a hero aren't the same. I would suppose that heroes are actively brave people, those who are prepared to make a sacrifice if the circumstances require and a right decision in a dangerous situation. Celso is brave - on a personal level, but what he seems to be is a man in search of an as quiet life as possible.

Certainly, all the aforesaid might be entirely wrong. In the game, we are able to wacth closely very small number of the souls who have taken their journey seriously. In fact, Celso Flores is the only one of the kind, with a scant mentioning of his wife walking on foot as well. Who knows what implicit qualities we couldn't observe in the game may Celso's soul possess?


The Suicide Number Nine.
I don't agree with a view on the Number Nine train as 'a simple solution, almost equivalent to suicide', as you described it.

Firstly, suicide is not simple, and secondly, it is not a solution at all. Not simple since it causes much harm to all people who care about you; not a solution because it is an escape, escape from difficulties. And the main point here is that as a result of suicide you stop living (I'm not taking into consideration mythological afterlife here).

The Number Nine doesn't have to do anything with the life/death issues at all (since in the 8th Underworld you already know for fact that your life is sort of eternal). Hence it has nothing to do with suicide. I'd rather partially compare the NN train to the plain earthly trains we have here in reality. If you are altruistic and generous, you can go to Zimbabwe by train, if you are greedy and egoistic - you go on foot. How does that sound? :) It's good we don't have such a system here, or I'd never see other countries :).

However... The idea of NN trains equivalent to suicide becomes fully conceivable with regard to the Mayan believes. If I got it right (and I might not), the ancient Mayans viewed a suicide, if properly* commited, of a person who led a decent live as a straight and easy passage to some land of Eternal Rest. There even was a relatively high-ranked Godess of suicide, Ix Tab, who fetched such souls, among the souls of those who died of childbirth, religious sacrifice or in battle(?), to the Mayan substitute for Heaven.
Or so I've heard; El Virus has a full right to tell me I understand nothing.


Who Deserves a Number Nine?
This is exactly what has puzzled me all the time, though there may be some explanation to the following which I simply don't remember from the time I played the game or I didn't catch it due to... well, just didn't catch it.

In the introduction, Manny says exactly this:
<The four-year journey of the soul> could be very, very dangerous… unless you were to take that money you were buried with and buy a better travel package from us! I mean, wouldn't you rather cross the Land of the Dead in your own sports car, maybe try a luxury ocean cruise, or if you led a very good life you may even be eligible for a ticket on the Number Nine itself. <...> It shoots straight to the Ninth Underworld, the land of eternal rest, in four minutes instead of four years. But very few people qualify.

Doesn't the above speech mean that only Saints - 'very few people [who] qualify' - may go to the 9th Underworld? As it seems, the answer is 'yes', and it isn't about the money either: just remember penniless Mercedes Colomar, or that nun Calabaza (by the way, I wonder, what did happen to her Double-N ticket?).
Then, there's another fact which seems to support this idea of true Justice in the LotD: as you accurately noted, El Virus, very rich people are usually sinners, and they are obviously compelled to stay in the LotD instead of given an opporunity to buy their lucky tickets right away (for instance, LeMans, Hurley, Virago, Maximino most probably weren't paupers while alive).

And jet Manny mentions some mysterious 'money you were buried with'. Perhaps it may be some traditional reference to the ritual of burying a deadman's possessions with him in his grave(?). Judging by the Flores couple's example, I gather it is safe to assume the money you bring to the LotD are the savings you had at the time you died (Celso's wife had all his money, apparently, as an inheritance). But this assumption doesn't clear out the confusing paradox:
1) if you are wealthy but not Saint enough, your money won't help you;
2) if you are Saint, you don't need money to get the ticket;
3) it is claimed that the Reapers sell the tickets.
I would be really glad to find a logical solution to this seemingly unsolvable headache.

Besides, there are two less benefitial than the NN travel packages, which are also somewhat inexplicable: how are you supposed to cross the Sea of Lament in the car, and doesn't actually an 'ocean cruise' imply the existence of a straight water-way from El Marrow to the Portal?
However, this may have some natural explanation we aren't privy to in the course of the game.

=================================================
=================================================
About suicide, might Mr. Calavera have killed himself, thus making the DOD force him to pay a debt for the years he must have kept living? This comes together with the “attitude he had towards life” comment of mine.
Oops, seems I don't get it again. What was your 'attitude he had towards life' comment? I've tried to find it on this page but didn't succeed.
As for Manny being suicidal - that's preposterous, if you'd ask me. It's not that the 'debt' they talk about all the time couldn't be a suicide, it's Manny's character himself. Sorry, but this particular type of a man is an eel who'll find a way in every situation possible and impossible as well. And not a samurai to perform a noble harakiri, too :).

By the way, who rules the Land of the Dead? Or who is the deity behind it all?
That was supposed to be a question for you, since you claim to know most about Mayans. :) My answer is simple: I have no idea. That Ah Puch guy and his bunch?..

El Virus
12-21-2005, 02:02 PM
That should be printed out and framed.

The whole thread should be printed and framed, but thanks for the kind words.

-I think my opinion may have been tainted by the fact that I like the idea of them together, even for a short relationship

-I see. On my part, I've never liked Carla, I think she's really boring. The question is, how did Manny see her: as you do or as I? For me, the answer to this is obvious)).

I enjoyed Carla's character. I think I spent about forty minutes making chit-chat with her, during the metal detector episode, until both finally had nothing more to say.

In the Matlese Falcon (I haven't seen the movie in a while, so I'm talking about the book by Dashiell Hammet), there is some tension between the main character, Sam Spade (who basically is a playboy to put it simple) and his secretary, which in my opinion is some hint of an attraction. I might be mistaken, though.

--------------------

Additional thoughts on the trial of a walking stick.
It's true, a grown man is more likly to survive alone than a baby. But he would be on a place he is unfamiliar with, and does not even know what to find. It's as if someone blindfolded you and left you in a new territory, Cambodia for example.

The heroism of one Celso Flores.
Oh, he was no hero. He disappointed me in the end, when he wanted to get those tickets from Le Mans (if my memory serves me). I would describe him as naive.
Chepito, I think was brave enough. He got to the train station and beyond.

The Suicide Number Nine.
I exaggerated there. But suicide may or may not be viewed as a simple solution, depending on you beliefs and culture.
Mayans, as you said, had a goddess devoted to people who ended their lives; and they viewed it as a honorary way of dying. Buddhists, I think, treat it on a similar way.

I wouldn't mind walking to Zimbabwe, except for the huge ocean separating me from Africa and the fact that I would have no reason to go there. Whilst I would have to got to the Ninth Heaven.

Who Deserves a Number Nine?
This is a complex thing, which I am bascially clueless about.

'I would be really glad to find a logical solution to this seemingly unsolvable headache'

Plot Hole?, but I am a cynical guy, don't pay attention to me.

As for Mercedes Colomar, I think it is very interesting how she was claimed to be a saint, yet she actually seemed the opposite to me. The way in which she evolved, is a good example of how people change in the underworld.

And you are right about Manny committing suicide, he seems like a cheerful person willing to go on. I give up on trying to guess the reason for his forced work.

And about the ruler of the Land of the Dead, I had in mind something like an elected person.

Here are some links to some forum threads:

The 'attitude towards life' comment. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=1964766&postcount=33)

A whole discussion about the underworlds (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=144252)

Bonus:
There is a passage on the Mayan calendar at a certain point. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=155748)

If there is one thing I am certain about, is that the LotD was no utopia

VampireNaomi
12-21-2005, 02:49 PM
I don't have much to add to this right now, but this caught my interest:

Oh, he was no hero. He disappointed me in the end, when he wanted to get those tickets from Le Mans (if my memory serves me). I would describe him as naive.

Am I completely wrong if I got the impression that it was Celso's wife who was more interested in the tickets? Sure, she doesn't say anything, but Hector's words to Celso after the decision to accept the offer imply that Celso was being reluctant (perhaps because he didn't want to spend so much money) but his wife might have been intrigued.

Naive is indeed probably a good way to describe him. Then again, who could resist Manny's sales speech?

Charie
12-22-2005, 01:22 AM
...Now I feel really silly about the abnormal length of my previous post. Overkill is my second name; besides, I sometimes enjoy various insipid systems and thoughts. If I were I a bit nicer I'd be Lupe in GF.

El Virus
It's as if someone blindfolded you and left you in a new territory, Cambodia for example.
Why blindfolded? You are free to look around and to talk with everybody.

I would describe <Celso> as naive. Chepito, I think was brave enough.
Hm, naive sounds like a correct epithet, now that I think about it.
I can't say anything about Chepito, though, cause I didn't understand anything at all about him in the game. He and Carla were the worst doubled voices, and without much sense in their words (I didn't like Carla much because of that, too).

I wouldn't mind walking to Zimbabwe, except for the huge ocean separating me from Africa and the fact that I would have no reason to go there.
Oh. Right. Though crossing some tropical jungle and desserts alone, on foot, wouldn't be high on my list of priorities. I suppose.

Plot Hole?, but I am a cynical guy, don't pay attention to me.
I'm cinical too (those times when I'm not romantic), so I'm tempted to agree.

As for Mercedes Colomar, I think it is very interesting how she was claimed to be a saint, yet she actually seemed the opposite to me.
Well, she certainly had to change a bit, dealing with Domino, but it seems strange to me to question her saintliness. Being a Saint doesn't sound to me equivalent to being flawless and far from the real life. Quite the contrary, even: you can't be detached to be Saint... For me Saints are more like, you know, diamonds in the dust. :rolleyes:

Here are some links to some forum threads
Oh, I've read those from the LotD forum before. Now I'll go skim through the Future post as well.

VampireNaomi
Yeah, Celso's wife seemed to be a very pragmatical person.

El Virus
12-22-2005, 10:51 AM
Why blindfolded? You are free to look around and to talk with everybody.
It came out wrong, it was supposed to be 'blindfolded, for you not to know where you had been taken, and then left alone with your sight un-obstructed'
And you would probably need to know Khmer (or whatever they speak) to talk to Cambodians; but such as with the Zimbabwe example, they cannot be compared to the Land of the Dead.

--------------------------

Oh, I have started to re-play the game, and came across some interesting dialogues.

-Around the end of the beginning cutscene, Manny says that he is tired of clients who can't afford a decent package, and that he needs a dead rich saint.

-When talking to Eva, at the first part of the game, she says:

"If you sell enough premium packages you will be able to leave the Land of the Dead; until then, our hero and I are trapped in this place"

Also,
Manny:"Why do some people have the right to better packages?"
Eva:"Because they lead better lifes"
M: "How do you define a better life?"
E: "Better than yours and mine"

She also says that they are restricted from saying what sin they commited to end in the department.

-On the second year, at the Calavera Café, Chowchilla Charlie says:

"We are all citizens of the same nation, and our king rides a pale horse"

What that is supposed to mean, I don't know.

VampireNaomi
12-22-2005, 11:11 AM
"We are all citizens of the same nation, and our king rides a pale horse"

I never thought that this meant anything specific. I think Charlie was just underlining the part that they're all dead.

EDIT: Hey, wait a minute. Just thought of another paradox.

-Around the end of the beginning cutscene, Manny says that he is tired of clients who can't afford a decent package, and that he needs a dead rich saint.

This implies that not only do you have to be really good to qualify for a NN ticket, you also have to have a lot of money. So, why exactly does Meche get a ticket? She told Manny that she never earned enough to pay taxes, so she must have been really poor.

EDIT2: I was reading some older comments and noticed the Eva/red hair confusion I had earlier. I don't know how I've been able to see her wrong all this time, but somehow I always saw her as wearing a wig. I was really confused as to why she got rid of it when she changed into her LSA costume. :D Lame.

Charie
12-22-2005, 12:06 PM
El Virus
You know, maybe I'm just not stubborn enough, but I give up. My brain wilts from this discussion.

Apart from that Eva's 'What I did back in the fat days is none of your business. You know the rules' line, which, I suppose, one may understand figuratively (I wonder, though, why it is me who always understands everything figuratively?), those quotes you cited, I'm sorry to admit, puzzle me completely.
'A rich dead Saint' one, especially. My mom used to say this all the time: you can't become really, very rich unless you stain you hands (or unless you create Microsoft, but that happens kind of rarely). If Saints really had to buy their tickets, I think the NN train would have fallen apart from corrosion a long time ago.

Maybe this riddle is exactly what it seems to be - a plot mistake? ...Although it seems too big to be so easily missed by creators of GF.
*desperately* Any suggestions?

On the second year, at the Calavera Café, Chowchilla Charlie says: "We are all citizens of the same nation, and our king rides a pale horse".
That's from the Book of Revelation. The fourth horseman of Apocalypse is Death, and he is supposed to ride a pale green horse.

==================================
Oops, while I typed the above answer there appeared another post.
==================================

VampireNaomi
So, why exactly does Meche get a ticket? She told Manny that she never earned enough to pay taxes, so she must have been really poor.
Ditto, mademoiselle. This is an unsolvable mystery, or so it appears to be.

I don't know how I've been able to see her wrong all this time, but somehow I always saw her as wearing a wig.
I still don't understand what's that red thing on her pretty skull. Could it be a very strange hat, maybe?..

VampireNaomi
12-22-2005, 12:18 PM
I guess we're dealing with a plot hole here. The creators might have missed it because in order to see it, you have to pay attention to certain dialogue lines and be struck with the idea. I didn't see anything wrong with the "sains and money" problem until now.

As for the thing on Eva's head, I have no idea. If it's not a wig, then... uh... We're such nerds with analyzing these things and all. :D

Damn, my vote still goes for a strange wig. Just see here. (http://www.ninth-world.com/images/characters/eva.jpg)

That's from the Book of Revelation. The fourth horseman of Apocalypse is Death, and he is supposed to ride a pale green horse.

Really? Is there a reason the horse is green? What I always associated with Charlie's comment was those medieval pictures of death riding a skeletal horse. On the other hand, that's also the symbol of the plague so it doesn't work very well.

Charie
12-22-2005, 12:50 PM
VampireNaomi
I guess we're dealing with a plot hole here.
Worse: a plot mistake, as I've said earlier.

As for the thing on Eva's head, I have no idea.
It looks a bit like a headscarf, but I've never seen headscarves (or hair) sticking up like that)). It must be some speacial Underworld High Fashion :).

Is there a reason the horse is green? What I always associated with Charlie's comment was those medieval pictures of death riding a skeletal horse.
That's just it. Pale green symbolizes pestilence, decay and all those attributes of death.

El Virus
12-22-2005, 02:32 PM
Hey, wait a minute. Just thought of another paradox.

What might that be?

I never took Chowchilla's comment seriously either, but since we were discussing the topic I thought it might come in handy.

You know, maybe I'm just not stubborn enough, but I give up. My brain wilts from this discussion.

Yeah, I give up too. I'm convinced it is a plot mistake or just something they didn't think we would be discussing.

At the 'rich saint' clause, I think it is one of the things that bothered me (and confused me) about the game, somehow, the idealistic personality of the game was overshadowed by that fact. Probably why Salvador wanted to start a revolution.
I'm guessing that the money was only good to buy a package like a car or a boat trip, and only saints could aspire to the NN. However, once again, Manuel says that money has no use in the LotD.

That is enough for me, the game is still [nearly] perfect.

-As for the thing on Eva's head, I have no idea.

-It looks a bit like a headscarf, but I've never seen headscarves (or hair) sticking up like that)). It must be some speacial Underworld High Fashion

A huge amount of hair spray? ¬¬
I still think it is a bandana, the characters who have got hair in the game have just got a couple of black lines.

VampireNaomi
12-22-2005, 02:40 PM
What might that be?

I could have worded that one a little better. It's the same one we've been talking about in the thread earlier, but I didn't realise the Meche angle of it until now. To others it must have been obvious from the beginning, but I'm a little slow. ;)

Aren't plot hole and plot mistake basically the same thing?

El Virus
12-22-2005, 03:09 PM
To others it must have been obvious from the beginning, but I'm a little slow.

Now, don't say that; this game might get too confusing when discussed.

Aren't plot hole and plot mistake basically the same thing?

Practically.
An example of a plot hole would be the fact that Celso (on foot) arrived to Rubacava before Manny (who was on a car) did, Celso's wife (who died later) arrived even earlier, and Meche only got there after one year (I think there is more than one far-fetched solution to this).
The plot mistake may be a goof, or anything that hasn't been well developed; like the things talked about at the thread. Am I criticizing the game too much?
Just my thought, I haven't digged it up in the dictionary or anything, so correct me if I am mistaken.

VampireNaomi
12-22-2005, 03:28 PM
You're probably correct. I haven't checked the correct meanings either, but what you said pretty much makes sense.

I don't think you're criticizing the game too much, if at all. A nicer word would be analyzing its content. ;) Besides, we wouldn't be having this interesting conversation if we didn't ponder the things that don't make sense.

Charie
12-23-2005, 01:20 AM
I'm just wondering as to what exactly we should take as canon: the irrelevance of money in pursuit of a better travel package or the tickets freely on sell. It would be nice to choose a one relatively acceptable option, but the more I think about it, the more clearly I see a dead end here. Dead end. That's symbolical.

VampireNaomi
Aren't plot hole and plot mistake basically the same thing?
Depends on your point of view :). Just as El Virus explained above, these two concepts differ one from another basically in level of significance. A plot hole is something that the author had overlooked or forgot to mention, but not really crucial to the main idea of the story; something one can ignore without much fretting over it. And a plot mistake is a drastic inconsistency in the important part of the story, a paradox impossible to explain and hard to cast aside.
At least I think so; maybe, in English it is all the same.

El Virus
the fact that Celso (on foot) arrived to Rubacava before Manny (who was on a car) did, Celso's wife (who died later) arrived even earlier, and Meche only got there after one year (I think there is more than one far-fetched solution to this).
What are the 'far-fetched solutions' you are talking about?

My opinion concerning this has always been that it has something to do with the 'four-year journey of the soul' plot... er, hole/mistake, whatever :).
It would all make much more sense if the first year in El Marrow would have been split, one way or another, in two, somewhere between Bruno's and Mercedes' arrivals in the LotD. I have a bad feeling that this topic had already been discussed through and through in the past. If it is as I suspect, I apologize. See, from the game's start to the end there had passed only three years, yet at the Portal to the 9th Underworld Bruno complaines about having 'nothing to read but this damn mug' for four years. Plus, providing a perfect answer to the comment above, Celso's adventure in the forest and his wife's death and haste trip would have had a whole year to work out.

I've no idea, however, how this split could be done, but I think it's possible. Or I may fail to see something significant, since I have never replayed the game.

Shuz
12-23-2005, 02:42 AM
Concerning the sainthood and money issue. I always understood it in that your good behaviour in life is worth so many "morale points" and that money could be used to buy extra "morale points" on top of your base-line amount, allowing you to receive a better travel package. So Meche was so good in life that she did not need to pay anything extra to qualify for a NN ticket.

Regarding the "dead rich saint" comment, I think this is just an example of Manny's deadpan humour. The joke is that his situation is so dire that only a saint with lots of money could give him the boost he needs. He was just exaggerating for comic effect.

Charie
12-23-2005, 03:20 AM
Horray! Seems I've been mistaken about one thing and right about the other: it's not bad at all to understand most of GF-talk figuratively, and it is possible to find a logical explanation to the apparent paradox.

'Morale points'. Sounds like a strategy-games' term, huh? We've all here assumed for some reason that a soul can buy a whole travel package, not it's qualification, so to speak. I imagine these 'morale points' must be pretty expensive, though, so that even the very rich sinners couldn't buy advantageous tickets (or, maybe, if you are deemed to work off you loose the chance to buy those 'points' completely...); and then - Justice triumphs.

Yeah, honestly, the qualification-on-sell idea appeals to me. Reasonable enough, and right now appears as a sort of epiphany :).

El Virus
12-23-2005, 07:14 AM
What are the 'far-fetched solutions' you are talking about?

My opinion concerning this has always been that it has something to do with the 'four-year journey of the soul' plot... er, hole/mistake, whatever .
[...]
Plus, providing a perfect answer to the comment above, Celso's adventure in the forest and his wife's death and haste trip would have had a whole year to work out.

I've no idea, however, how this split could be done, but I think it's possible. Or I may fail to see something significant, since I have never replayed the game.

Well, one of the solutions is the same than the one you provided.
I always thought (not to spoil the fun in the game, that was for) that between picking Celso and Bruno up some time goes by; as well as between Bruno and Meche. There is no evidence that points the other way, so I figure they had to cut some content or either eliminate it from the game.
Also, Celso had a walking stick and a direction; Meche had nothing, so she might have got lost.
I never considered this hole to be serious; it can be avoided with a bit of imagination, or by just obviating it.

"morale points"

Karma?

It does sound possible but I have heard the word money exclusively, in the game.

Regarding the "dead rich saint" comment, I think this is just an example of Manny's deadpan humour. The joke is that his situation is so dire that only a saint with lots of money could give him the boost he needs. He was just exaggerating for comic effect.

Now that you mention it...I think you are right there, I completely disregarded that.

Charie
12-23-2005, 07:39 AM
El Virus
There is no evidence that points the other way, so I figure they had to cut some content or either eliminate it from the game.
You think the gap in the course of the first year was indended, but got cut out in the process? The dialogues were still all consecutive there, weren't they?

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.

El Virus
12-23-2005, 09:53 AM
El Virus

You think the gap in the course of the first year was indended, but got cut out in the process? The dialogues were still all consecutive there, weren't they?

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.

No, I like to think that they had it planned when they thought the story, but when they begun to develop the game, just left it out and modified the dialogues for them to make sense :¬:. It's a plot hole.

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.

Really?, I thought you were more of a "Train Station/Aztec Pyramid" person.

Yohein
12-23-2005, 12:39 PM
I think the money they use to pay for the travel packages is just the material "manifestation" of the good things they did in life. The better they were in life, the more money they have when they arrived to the land of the dead. The only thing that disturbs me is that comment Manny makes: "You can pick up that money you were buried with, and buy a better travel package from us"... maybe is a methaphoric way to say they recieve the money when the die, depending on the life they had :lol:

Charie
12-23-2005, 01:24 PM
El Virus
No, I like to think that they had it planned when they thought the story, but when they begun to develop the game, just left it out and modified the dialogues for them to make sense
Oops, bad phrasing. I meant the 'gap' in that reply of mine as a 'certain interval of time'. So, your answer is 'yes'. I think that's a great theory (mainly because I doubt I'd come up with that myself). Not that I agree or disagree, for that's entirely possible, but unconfirmed.

I thought you were more of a "Train Station/Aztec Pyramid" person.
0.0 Where did you get that idea from??
For you're right, at least partially. What I love most is the Mayan style in GF, which begins and ends the story. They, in a way, go together, in my view. The DOD location, however, is much more colourful and varied than the Portal, so if pressed to choose one I'd say DOD.

What's yours favourite?

Yohein
That's stretched. Do you mean that seriously?
'Morale points' sound much more real, since 'the powers that be' of the LotD would still have to know somehow whether the person is good or not. Those 'records' of the souls in the DOD have to come from somewhere, and they apparently include some representation of a soul's virtues and sins.

Yohein
12-23-2005, 06:19 PM
I know. The problem is the game sometimes talks about "having a good life" and sometimes about "having money". And, apparently, it makes no difference, so I thought both things are related. Of course, the phrase Manny says at the beggining doesn't make much sense with this.

Yohein
12-23-2005, 06:49 PM
By the way, there's another thing that makes me think that "buried money" is not that real: what about the gazpacho poissining at the beggining? you go to pick up souls at the restaurant, where they buried or not? Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing :lol:

El Virus
12-23-2005, 10:02 PM
0.0 Where did you get that idea from??
For you're right, at least partially. What I love most is the Mayan style in GF, which begins and ends the story. They, in a way, go together, in my view. The DOD location, however, is much more colourful and varied than the Portal, so if pressed to choose one I'd say DOD.

I was just taking a guess ;).

The ambientation of this game is, in my opinion, what makes it so special. Instead of using the typicall science fiction or fantasy setting, they chose to use one made up by many different myths (Mayan culture; the edge of the world, etc.). By doing this, they were able to create a very unviable world, which momentarily suspends reality for the player who considers it to be completely normal.
Besides, there are many things taken from my favourite decades.

What's yours favourite?

My favourite? years 3 and 4 are excellent. The sordid & isolated environments like the edge of the world or the whole train station, added to the melancholy of El Marrow and Rubacava's almost extreme downfall, are incomparable.


By the way, there's another thing that makes me think that "buried money" is not that real: what about the gazpacho poissining at the beggining? you go to pick up souls at the restaurant, where they buried or not? Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing.

I've always wondered how they got their clothes as soon as they got to the LotD.

Charie
12-24-2005, 12:45 AM
Yohein
Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing
Oh I see dozens of coffins filled with money up to the lid.
I agree that souls are picked up where their bodies had died.

El Virus
By doing this, they were able to create a very unviable world
What do you mean, 'unviable'?
-----------------------------------
Your favourite decades are 40's-60's?

The sordid & isolated environments like the edge of the world or the whole train station, added to the melancholy of El Marrow and Rubacava's almost extreme downfall, are incomparable.
To my mind, the one fault of the Portal is coldness. I'm freezing under two thick blankets here, and you expect me to like that North Pole. :) Plus, if I need melancholy, I can get more than enough of it looking out of my window. White ground, the same colour of the sky, dull grey pavement. As senor Martinez said, 'Ah, phooey!'

I've always wondered how they got their clothes as soon as they got to the LotD.
So have I. Meche didn't seem to have clothes wrapped in that brown paper. I don't remember Bruno's appearance as a soul, though.

VampireNaomi
12-24-2005, 06:16 AM
So have I. Meche didn't seem to have clothes wrapped in that brown paper. I don't remember Bruno's appearance as a soul, though.

I don't think Bruno had them either, but since he's already clothed when he comes out of the car he must have picked them up on the way. The question is, where.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 06:36 AM
Oh I see dozens of coffins filled with money up to the lid.

That's what Manny says at the beggining of the game, and the manual says that too: the game is based in a mayan culture where corpses are buried with money to help them in the other life. I think they tried to show this in the game using that phrase Manny says, but seeing the rest of the game... well, doesn't fit too well.

By the way, the noun you see in Domino's car where you go to the poisoning has clothes too :lol: Probably they have a set of clothes in the car for each case :lol:

Well, the final question is: are they really buried with money to buy the travel packages or it depends on the good they were in life? maybe they depend on both things, as someone said before, but I don't think the original idea was depending on how good you were in life AND how much money do you have. Just look nouns, as Domino and Manny say, they are like "Double N guaranteed customers", and I don't think they necessarily have a lot of money... that's why I said the money they have depends on the life they had.

Charie
12-24-2005, 07:37 AM
Yohein
the manual says that too: the game is based in a mayan culture where corpses are buried with money to help them in the other life. I think they tried to show this in the game using that phrase Manny says, but seeing the rest of the game... well, doesn't fit too well.
Yes, this was mentioned somewhere earlier - that 'buried with money' might be just a reference to the ancient tradition.

Probably they have a set of clothes in the car for each case
Sounds ridiculous)). Or maybe souls come with their clothes 'in the same package', just not wearing them. :)

========================
Further reganding the money issue.
In Rubacava Celso (again that blasted Celso) told Manny that his wife had all his money. I assumed it was her inheritance after husband's death. Then, Celso wouldn't have had any money at his arrival in the LotD, as well. Yet, Manny sais (that guy always sais something contradictory) that he sells walking-sticks. How is that possible?

Seems there's no escape from the money matter even in the LotD.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 09:37 AM
Bruno has nothing on the package were Manny picks him up. So the only possibility is that the reapers have the clothes in the car, even if it sounds ridiculous to you ;P But, in a world where the DOD cars are parked in hangers or people is made only from bones and drink and eat just like that, I think havin some clothes in the trunk is not THAT ridiculous :lol:

Charie
12-24-2005, 10:21 AM
Oh, if so, then clothes in the trunk aren't ridiculouser than everything else, indeed.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 10:35 AM
By the way, that thing you said about Celso's wife having his money... that's another strange line in the game. Maybe he's saying his wife didn't buried the money with him and that's the raison why he couldn't get a good travel package... but that doesn't make much sense. Uff, this is too much... :lol: Maybe someone should write to Tim Schafer and ask this details :lol:
Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.

VampireNaomi
12-24-2005, 11:02 AM
Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.

Indeed. Most likely these things weren't explained because it would have taken credibility from the game.

For example, the game implies that the characters can have sex despite their lack of the needed equipment. If the game actually explained how this is possible it would make the entire thing seem ridiculous and far fetched, so it's better to let it remain a mystery.

Charie
12-24-2005, 12:13 PM
Yohein
It is one thing to not explain everything about the story and it's setting (which is great; it leaves room for imagination, and makes the story more real), and another to leave small inconsistencies where matters should be understandable by common logic. Not knowing as opposed to knowing completely contradictory facts. Well, both lead to pondering, for different reasons.

VampireNaomi
For example, the game implies that the characters can have sex despite their lack of the needed equipment. If the game actually explained how this is possible it would make the entire thing seem ridiculous and far fetched, so it's better to let it remain a mystery.
Oh yes, this is definitely an IMPORTANT matter. If the game actually explained how this is possible, it would be kinda porno-game, don't y'think? So yeah, better to remain un-enlightened about some facts.
But... well. Mea culpa, madames and monsieurs, mea maxima culpa: this issue had crossed my mind once, as well. I just dismissed it then, settling on a notion that love is much more platonic for the dead.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 01:31 PM
I think the problem of the game is that there are lots of humoristic phrases related with the LOTD "system", and when you are playing and you hear the joke you laugh, but later, when you replay or think about the game, you realised that phrase "contradicts" another one. And the manual doesn't help, in fact, when it describes some places, it makes some comments even more confusing...

Charie
12-24-2005, 02:06 PM
That's right. The good thing is that such confusing moments don't spoil enjoyment of GF at all. Moreover, they are hardly related to the game itself :).

VampireNaomi
12-24-2005, 02:42 PM
I think the problem of the game is that there are lots of humoristic phrases related with the LOTD "system", and when you are playing and you hear the joke you laugh, but later, when you replay or think about the game, you realised that phrase "contradicts" another one. And the manual doesn't help, in fact, when it describes some places, it makes some comments even more confusing...

Absolutely. Anyone remember in the beginning of Year 3 when Glottis and Manny mention that it's not dangerous for Manny to be at the bottom of the sea because he no longer has lungs? That means he doesn't breathe. Yet later in Year 3 when he and Meche are locked up in the cooler she tells him to "go waste the air in his room". Also, without lungs it is rather difficult to exhale cigarette smoke, yet they all do it. :D

So yeah, taking things too literally will lead to confusing situations. The difficult part is deciding what's important, what's just a joke and what shouldn't be dwelled on.

Suddenly, Charie's point of view is starting to make a lot more sense.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 03:10 PM
Don't forget the "Was Salvador a reaper?" thread I opened some time ago, more confusing parts on the game :lol: In fact, I think these discussions show how wonderful Grim Fandango is. I mean, is the only game I know where the creators can leave lots of "holes" and don't explain important parts and when you finish the game you feel that it was perfect and extraordinary completed. Impressive.

Well, as a sum up, give the conclussions you got, please :lol: I'm starting to be a bit confused. Are they buried with money or not? :lol:

VampireNaomi
12-24-2005, 03:27 PM
Well, as a sum up, give the conclussions you got, please I'm starting to be a bit confused. Are they buried with money or not?

I have no idea. Until this discussion I assumed that no real money was involved at all, that the deserving souls simply got their tickets regardless of how wealthy they were and that selling tickets meant handing them out to those who deserved them. I thought that the mentioned money was simply one way of measuring their good deeds. Sort of like the moral points mentioned earlier.

And now... No idea. I don't think anyone of us can give a definite answer to that. You better ask Schafer. ;) Though I'm sure that if he saw this thread, he'd tell us to relax, stop thinking about things like this and simply enjoy the game.

El Virus
12-24-2005, 04:11 PM
The long post thing applies here as well

Damn, those are a lot of posts. Better answer then one by one.

----------------


What do you mean, 'unviable'?

Not viable is the appropriate term. What I meant was that they had created an unrealistic setting (which seem naturally and is not questioned by the player).

Your favourite decades are 40's-60's?

30s to 50s; but the game does not have a clear time location.

To my mind, the one fault of the Portal is coldness. I'm freezing under two thick blankets here, and you expect me to like that North Pole. Plus, if I need melancholy, I can get more than enough of it looking out of my window. White ground, the same colour of the sky, dull grey pavement. As senor Martinez said, 'Ah, phooey!'

Ha, we are melting under 30ºC and a lot of humidity. I really miss cold and rainy days.

Anything that re-creates a depressive environment on a profound level is of my interest.

Further reganding the money issue.
In Rubacava Celso (again that blasted Celso) told Manny that his wife had all his money. I assumed it was her inheritance after husband's death. Then, Celso wouldn't have had any money at his arrival in the LotD, as well. Yet, Manny sais (that guy always sais something contradictory) that he sells walking-sticks. How is that possible?

If you check Manny's computer at the beginning, he says that Celso did not deserve the stick.

Maybe someone should write to Tim Schafer and ask this details

Though I know you said it as a joke, I think that asking the developers about it would ruin the whole thing.
A short time ago, someone rasied a question about what happened when somebody was sprouted; then another person read the answer Schafer gave in an interview or in the strategy guide, and it was quite disappointing.

Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.


I agree to this, it adds to the mystery and fun of the game.

But... well. Mea culpa, madames and monsieurs, mea maxima culpa: this issue had crossed my mind once, as well. I just dismissed it then, settling on a notion that love is much more platonic for the dead.

I think the issue appeared to every person who played the game at least once.

And I could go on and on but I am tired of quoting.

Something that I find pretty important about the game is the regress of cities like El Marrow and Rubacava (It comes hand in hand with an earlier comment of mine). El Marrow, a cheerful and colourful city that was the first stop for the newly deceased, had been changed into a dark town with an excessive amount of neon signs and publicity; the DOD was no longer active (at least that is what Manny seems to hint) which is reasonably significant. Nuevo Marrow was for me a symbol about the conflict of ideals around it; the quarrel between the LSA and Hector LeMans*, and on a bigger scale freedom and submission.
And Rubacava, a city that held the elite of the Land of the Dead, a place where practically everyone would have liked to live in, was now an almost deserted and neglected place.

*How did Hector get so much power? Did I miss something, or he was virtually the owner of the city?

VampireNaomi
12-24-2005, 04:24 PM
*How did Hector get so much power? Did I miss something, or he was virtually the owner of the city?

That is an interesting point. I find it unlikely that he alone ruled the place. Perhaps he had the most power and respect since he ran the fake NN Ticket business, but I'm sure that he didn't own the city, if you know what I mean.

Nuevo Marrow was probably filled with opportunists by the time Manny returned there and I'm sure that at least some of them did their best at trying to reach the top. Most likely they didn't get as far as Hector, but surely there had to be other important people too.

Meh, I'm not getting anywhere with this post. I'm just repeating the same thing over and over again and can't turn my actual vision into words.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 05:08 PM
I think Eva and Copal say Hector is one of the important guys of the city, so maybe he was in the govern and he gradually gained power with the money. By the way, you think Hector should have been a reaper but he didn't want to work and stayed in the city? or maybe he wasn't that bad in life but got corrupted?

El Virus
12-24-2005, 05:53 PM
That is an interesting point. I find it unlikely that he alone ruled the place. Perhaps he had the most power and respect since he ran the fake NN Ticket business, but I'm sure that he didn't own the city, if you know what I mean.

Nuevo Marrow was probably filled with opportunists by the time Manny returned there and I'm sure that at least some of them did their best at trying to reach the top. Most likely they didn't get as far as Hector, but surely there had to be other important people too.

Meh, I'm not getting anywhere with this post. I'm just repeating the same thing over and over again and can't turn my actual vision into words.

Yeah, People who we didn't get to know since it didn't concern Manny. I'm sure the LSA took care of them ;).

By the way, you think Hector should have been a reaper but he didn't want to work and stayed in the city? or maybe he wasn't that bad in life but got corrupted?

He was trying to sell packages to Celso and his wife, and I doubt it they were his only 'customers', but this has more to do with the fake tickets.

I remember that while talking to Salvador at the LSA headquarters he mentions that Hector used to be a thief.
I'm not sure if this was when he was alive or as soon as he got to the LotD.

Yohein
12-24-2005, 07:02 PM
Sorry, I didn't explain very well because I was in hurry. I wanted to say if you think Hector was bad in life too. If he was as he's in the LOTD, he surely should have been punished to work his time on the DOD, but maybe he just quit the job and stayed "prisioner" in the city.

Charie
12-25-2005, 02:45 AM
El Virus
Damn, those are a lot of posts.
My thoughts exactly.

If you check Manny's computer at the beginning, he says that Celso did not deserve the stick.
And what you are saying is..?
I don't remember that line, but sounds like Manny's usual sarcasm.

A short time ago, someone rasied a question about what happened when somebody was sprouted; then another person read the answer Schafer gave in an interview or in the strategy guide, and it was quite disappointing.
I took it that Schafer didn't know the answer either and just produced his idea on the spot, as a possibility and not a fact.

------------------------------------------------
I didn't see Rubacava's and El Marrow's regress as something symbolical. I didn't think much of that at all, seeing that this technique (a traveller returnes to the lands he had left behind only to find nothing but decay and drastic changes for the worse) is widely used in literature, never ceasing to create a great impression, though.
Well, it could also be viewed as an example of what happens to a city when mafia and extreme corruption grab the control.

And Rubacava, a city that held the elite of the Land of the Dead, a place where practically everyone would have liked to live in, was now an almost deserted and neglected place.
It became neglected as well? I don't remember much of 4th-year's Rubacava. I wonder, why did it become like that, then. Perhaps the town was really too dependant on the megalopolis of El/Nuevo Marrow, both in terms of new souls and subsidizing.
By the way, I wouldn't like to live in Rubacava, even in it's best days. I'd rather live in Puerto Zapato, the one I imagine :).

How did Hector get so much power? Did I miss something, or he was virtually the owner of the city?
He was, Olivia agreed with Manny on this, and Salvador seemed to consider Hector LSA's prime enemy.
I think VampireNaomi is right, there were other big people in Nuevo Marrow - all under Hector's control or supervision. LeMans was like a Godfather there, I suppose; even the patterns on his hands are crosses :).
I guess taking over the DOD was a significant point in Hectors career, providing a good start for his overall rise.


Yohein
By the way, you think Hector should have been a reaper but he didn't want to work and stayed in the city? or maybe he wasn't that bad in life but got corrupted?
As I still don't believe that becoming a Reaper is the only way to make some amends, for a dead sinner, in my opinion, it's unlikely that Hector had ever been working as one. Not his style, I'd think. He'd rather start building his empire the moment he learned his fate, however that is usually done (I've no idea).
It seems that he had already spent quite a long time in the LotD before the beginning of the game. Salvador said once that 'for some people, this world is all there is', hinting, as I understand it, that their working-off obligations were far too difficult to discharge (and would all the same take a long time in the LotD). I gather Hector was most probably just the samy 'bad boy' while alive as when dead. Such people never change.

Don't forget the "Was Salvador a reaper?" thread I opened some time ago, more confusing parts on the game
I remember reading that thread and thinking, 'how can they even suggest that Salvador lied?' :) Suppose I'll have to reread that discussion some day.

El Virus
12-25-2005, 09:28 PM
And what you are saying is..?
I don't remember that line, but sounds like Manny's usual sarcasm.

Nothing, I was just adding to the post.

I am certain it was not sarcasm; but it might vary with the language.

It became neglected as well? I don't remember much of 4th-year's Rubacava. I wonder, why did it become like that, then. Perhaps the town was really too dependant on the megalopolis of El/Nuevo Marrow, both in terms of new souls and subsidizing.
By the way, I wouldn't like to live in Rubacava, even in it's best days. I'd rather live in Puerto Zapato, the one I imagine .

Most of the things in the city are out of order, like the bridge and the elevator (which were more a resource to prevent the player from wasting time).
The importance of Nuevo Marrow is that the Department of Death is completely operated by crooks, if operated at all.

The fact that I couldn't get to see Zapato got me a bit mad while I was playing it :P; seemed like a nice place.

As I still don't believe that becoming a Reaper is the only way to make some amends, for a dead sinner, in my opinion, it's unlikely that Hector had ever been working as one.

Now THAT is something I never thought about.

Shuz
12-25-2005, 10:07 PM
As I still don't believe that becoming a Reaper is the only way to make some amends, for a dead sinner, in my opinion,



I agree. El MArrow, for example, is a big city and it would require all the same public services that any city in the LotL would need (city administration, building roads, collecting garbage etc). So there is probably a lot of jobs available for dead sinners to redeem themselves with. A reaper is probably the most interesting one.

Charie
12-26-2005, 12:09 AM
El Virus
You play not in English?

Souls still would have to arrive in the LotD somehow, I wonder what was their fate with Hector as an owner of the town.
I'm sure I would be more than a little perplexed and frightened if I arrived in such an Underworld.

Yes, I also deadly wanted to see Puerto Zapato. For some reason I imagine that town as a calm, refreshing and overall nice place. And far from Hector's direct inflience. And cooler, and closer to the End of the Road.

Shuz
Uhuh, I agree. I wonder if novice Reapers take unwarranted detours in the LotL to look around, the way it appears to the dead. Though scary, the LotL is most fascinating.

El Virus
12-26-2005, 10:28 PM
You play not in English?

Indeed. I have the Spanish version. The acting is great, but some of the phrases are translated literally, on ways in which they make no sense in my language.

Souls still would have to arrive in the LotD somehow, I wonder what was their fate with Hector as an owner of the town.

That is the importance of it; with no real agents in command, more than one person wouldn't have got to the Land of the Dead, and would be doomed to eternal suffering.

I'm sure I would be more than a little perplexed and frightened if I arrived in such an Underworld.

I would be more than a little perplex and frightened if I arrived in any sort of Underworld or afterlife.

Charie
12-26-2005, 11:55 PM
El Virus
That is the importance of it; with no real agents in command, more than one person wouldn't have got to the Land of the Dead, and would be doomed to eternal suffering.
So you think they didn't fetch new souls at all, in Nuevo Marrow? This has never crossed my mind before, it's unthinkable. I imagined they still brought newlydeads, but lied to them all without exception. Your idea... What do you think happens to a soul whom no one comes to fetch?

I would be more than a little perplex and frightened if I arrived in any sort of Underworld or afterlife.
Wouldn't you be relieved? After all, fear of death comes from the very likely possibility that there's nothing at all after you die. Never, nothing; like when you still weren't born. I, for instance, don't want to die... forever.

El Virus
12-27-2005, 12:21 AM
Your idea... What do you think happens to a soul whom no one comes to fetch?

"Bound only by the paper-thin wrappings of mortality, a soul here lies, struggling to be free; and so it shall, thanks to a bowl of bad gazpacho, and a man named Calavera."

Take the 'man named Calavera' out of the formula, and what you get is a trapped soul. He wouldn't be alive, yet still wouldn't be dead.
I do not know what this actually implies, but I cannot imagine anything worse.

Wouldn't you be relieved? After all, fear of death comes from the very likely possibility that there's nothing at all after you die. Never, nothing; like when you still weren't born. I, for instance, don't want to die... forever.

Fear of death comes from people not knowing what actually awaits.

There are many beliefs about 'what happens next', and ironically there is no way to find it out until it is already too late. Many people are religious, and most religious doctrines have an equivalent to Heaven and Hell; and the latter is what most are scared of.


Would I be relieved? I do not know. Life is said to be unfair, and I wouldn't like to have to stand it all again. But I have barely questioned the subject; the mystery is what I both, like & hate, about it.

----------

Anyway, it's late here. I'll go on to-morrow.

Charie
12-27-2005, 01:20 AM
El Virus
I certainly remember the line about bad gazpacho.
I just thought - can souls get out of those wrappings on their own or not? I mean, do they remain lying in their place of death, or wander through the LotL, representing what we call ghosts, maybe? I suppose even with a proper supervision, sometimes there still occur mistakes in the DOD.

I don't believe in afterlife. Maybe I'd like to, but this is subconscious - I can't. I can't be sure, of course; I'm the type of person who won't entirely believe in anything until saw it with my own eyes. Also, I'm the type of person who worries in advance. So, even though it might be seen as a too young an age for such thoughts, I desperately don't want to die. Okay, life may be unfair (in my opinion, life is fair, always - perhaps some people are not), and it certainly isn't easy and constantly pleasant, but - it's beautiful and amazing. Sometimes you just need to look at the sky to feel it, and then you crave for being eternal, much like the sky itself.

----------
Anyway, it's early here. I guess I'm not really awake yet. :)

El Virus
12-27-2005, 11:28 AM
I don't believe in afterlife. Maybe I'd like to, but this is subconscious - I can't.

Same with me; it is the kind of thought I wouldn't mind believing in, but due to my nature, I am practically certain that it is impossible.
But I like to be neutral about anything that I cannot prove.

Okay, life may be unfair (in my opinion, life is fair, always - perhaps some people are not)

Incredibly, those people are ruling the world.

I do not know if 'Life' can be considered to be unfair, since it is not an entity. You can blame it on fate, or on anything else; but Humanity is the root of most, if not all, of the problems.

So, even though it might be seen as a too young an age for such thoughts, I desperately don't want to die. Okay, life may be unfair (in my opinion, life is fair, always - perhaps some people are not), and it certainly isn't easy and constantly pleasant, but - it's beautiful and amazing. Sometimes you just need to look at the sky to feel it, and then you crave for being eternal, much like the sky itself.

There's no age limit to be worried about it; same as there are young people who think about the subject, there are old ones who simply don't.
But you have a good reason to be concerned, you enjoy life, for everything it has to give, whether it is good or bad.
Life is a beautiful, yet strange, experience; unfortunately, though I recognize its attributes, I just like to see it as a phase.

While Death doesn’t preoccupy me that much, suffering definitely does.

Charie
12-27-2005, 01:50 PM
El Virus
You know, I've never talked about afterlife with anybody who believes in it. Perhaps I'd like to listen to their thoughts on the subject. Though, I suspect, it would be hard to find actual believers here, around me; besides, that would be a great risk of running into some fanatics, whom I'm not particularly fond of.

Incredibly, [unfair] people are ruling the world.
Well, they are ruling other people; 'the world' is too big a word, fortunately.

I do not know if 'Life' can be considered to be unfair, since it is not an entity. You can blame it on fate, or on anything else; but Humanity is the root of most, if not all, of the problems.
Humanity is a complaining party, as well. Humans think too much, that's their problem.

As for Life, or Fate, or whatever, you may call it as you like - why would I blame it? In my view, it's always right, especially when you think about it a bit, impartially. There's a reason for everything, and all that... Or, more likely, it all comes down to a scapegoat's question in the end. Whether you blame 'Life', or 'Fate', or find somebody much much closer and more substential to curse for your insignificant petty misfortunes.
I'm not talking about you, of course.

There's no age limit to be worried about [death]
Oh, but there's a limit of ridiculousness in this. Maybe people shouldn't worry about that at all, it's not like their lifes' duration is in their powers to control. Didn't you just laugh at Andrei Bolkonsky's speculations about how life is 'ended at thirty-one'? At seventeen, it's even more absurd.
I remember myself crying rivers at a tender age of four, when I played with my toys all the time, that there would come a time when I wouldn't need toys any more. To my mind, it's just that - an excessive distress, nothing more.

But, well, it only means I don't live really happily, which is the main porpose of the life, in my opinion, - if I worry about 'serious matters'. A happy person (or busy, for that matter) wouldn't have the time for it.

But you have a good reason to be concerned, you enjoy life, for everything it has to give, whether it is good or bad.
Life is a beautiful, yet strange, experience; unfortunately, though I recognize its attributes, I just like to see it as a phase.
What do you mean - you mean you don't enjoy your life? And a phase of what, exactly, it is, in your opinion? You know, your 'a phase' remark sounds like Nicolas Flamel's from Harry Potter 'death is just another adventure'. What's in adventure if you can't savour it, if you'd ask me. Cheer up, senor Flores, you sound more and more like Membrillo to my ears right now.

While Death doesn’t preoccupy me that much, suffering definitely does.
(Seems I can't stop the demands for clarifying). Whose suffering, presciesly?


--------------------
And I certainly enjoy my life. As some clever man said once, you could *not* have even that.

Yohein
12-27-2005, 04:08 PM
I didn't think the DOD was closed in year 4. As you said, it must be opened so new souls can arrive. I think it was just closed because it was night, or maybe just that level was empty so the lights were off.

By the way, some phrases in the Spanish translation are bad because they are bad written in the original version. For example, when Manny talks with Maximino and he says he saw Olivia kissing Nick, Maximino says that's normal there and Manny says "I mean KISSING, Max"... but if you see, the sentence is written "I mean KISSING Max"... so, of course, in the Spanish version looks like Olivia was kissing Max :lol:

El Virus
12-27-2005, 11:17 PM
You know, I've never talked about afterlife with anybody who believes in it. Perhaps I'd like to listen to their thoughts on the subject. Though, I suspect, it would be hard to find actual believers here, around me; besides, that would be a great risk of running into some fanatics, whom I'm not particularly fond of.

I think that that is because most of the people who believe in the afterlife see the subject of Death as a taboo, and shoo you away from talking about it with them; that has happened to me, at least.

Humans think too much, that's their problem.

I agree; but that trait is what separates the Man from the animals, and what has helped us to become what we are today (whether this is good or bad, I leave it up to you).


As for Life, or Fate, or whatever, you may call it as you like - why would I blame it? In my view, it's always right, especially when you think about it a bit, impartially. There's a reason for everything, and all that... Or, more likely, it all comes down to a scapegoat's question in the end. Whether you blame 'Life', or 'Fate', or find somebody much much closer and more substential to curse for your insignificant petty misfortunes.

I wasn't talking about YOU in particular :P.

I remember myself crying rivers at a tender age of four, when I played with my toys all the time, that there would come a time when I wouldn't need toys any more. To my mind, it's just that - an excessive distress, nothing more

The same happened to me; I would play with my imagination constantly, I would always pretend I was somebody else; unfortunately, I realised one day, that I would mature and I wouldnd't be morally alowed to play with it again.

My [seldom] friends (or people I waste my time with during the school year) mock at me for my desire to grow up, and they tend to claim that I had no childhood. But deep inside me, I miss those days in which one would just play, without giving a damn about anything else (I wouldn't like to be a child again, however).


But, well, it only means I don't live really happily, which is the main porpose of the life, in my opinion, - if I worry about 'serious matters'. A happy person (or busy, for that matter) wouldn't have the time for it.

Not to get into the quasi-philosophical topics wen are discussing at another thread; but I dno't really thing life has a purpose. And even if it did, I doubt it would be happiness; being happy involves stability, which may become monotonous after a while.
I think sadness is underrated, without it, the concept of 'happiness' wouldn't exist.
I like a dose of both every once in a while, but I see to be getting more of sadness lately.

What do you mean - you mean you don't enjoy your life? And a phase of what, exactly, it is, in your opinion? You know, your 'a phase' remark sounds like Nicolas Flamel's from Harry Potter 'death is just another adventure'. What's in adventure if you can't savour it, if you'd ask me. Cheer up, senor Flores, you sound more and more like Membrillo to my ears right now.

On certain days, I don't enjoy my life at all; on others I'm comfortable with it. And I hate myself for that.

(Seems I can't stop the demands for clarifying). Whose suffering, presciesly?

I am afraid of the death of people I care for; about losing them.
What I meant with suffering was not having a sad experience; but a painful one. You know sever illnesses and stuff (I used to have a small case of hypocondriasis, when I was younger).

And I certainly enjoy my life. As some clever man said once, you could *not* have even that.

Really, whom?

By the way, some phrases in the Spanish translation are bad because they are bad written in the original version. For example, when Manny talks with Maximino and he says he saw Olivia kissing Nick, Maximino says that's normal there and Manny says "I mean KISSING, Max"... but if you see, the sentence is written "I mean KISSING Max"... so, of course, in the Spanish version looks like Olivia was kissing Max

Yes, I have noticed that. But I was talking about other things; I'll expand later.

Charie
12-28-2005, 01:23 AM
El Virus
I've never tried to ask about afterlife any strangers; and my acquaintances, as I said above, are mostly very materialistic persons.
However, once I new a man who sincerely believed in God and that he himself had seen an angel. I'd already known him for several years (and I had thought I knew him well enough!) before he told me about his experience with supernatural beings, and, you know, while I was listening to him I believed in what he was saying, too. There was some special mesmerism about him. But after I was released from his 'spell', everything he had said seemed utterly ridiculous.
Khm, this was just a memory.

I wasn't talking about YOU in particular
This knowledge doesn't prevent me from answering about myself, though. After all, that's somebody I know best.

I realised one day, that I would mature and I wouldnd't be morally alowed to play with it again.
My [seldom] friends (or people I waste my time with during the school year) mock at me for my desire to grow up, and they tend to claim that I had no childhood. But deep inside me, I miss those days in which one would just play, without giving a damn about anything else <...>.
Yes, not giving a damn and not being required to give a damn is bliss.
Do you really want to grow up, and do you count yourself mature? I suppose you have a good reason for that. I, on my part, don't want to grow up at all, never. And, so far, I haven't, however I'm afraid this might not last long (but I surely have a chance, just look at my father: fifty-six or so years old and not much more mature than me; much more intelligent and clever, though, of course). I still pretend most of the time (a habit), and I don't feel any 'moral allowances' bounding me. But I'm a bad example.
Why do those aquaintances of yours claim you had no childhood?

Being happy involves stability, which may become monotonous after a while.
I think sadness is underrated, without it, the concept of 'happiness' wouldn't exist.
Oh, indeed. I suppose I really did mean 'stability', which you have doubts about. Allah knows, I yearn for stabilty.
Besides, 'happy life's' concept, for me, involves mostly being as much content with it's course as possible; with failures, but always something to look forward to. And good warm people around, of course. And some sort of inner harmony. Sadness will always find a way, anyway, I don't need any additional.

I like a dose of both every once in a while, but I see to be getting more of sadness lately.
Hm. Same for me - was recently, at least.
Well, the more 'sadness' you get, the more you value little simple pleasures and comfort.

-----------------------
That line about you hating yourself for 'that' - does 'that' refer to 'being comfortable with' your life?

I am afraid of the death of people I care for; about losing them.
What I meant with suffering was not having a sad experience; but a painful one.
That's good for you - worrying about people you care for, I mean. I don't think I really care about anybody but myself, as crude as that sounds.

Pain's my foremost earthly fear, so to speak, but pain is a chance, and death is a certainty. Some upper level of dread, as well.

Really, whom?
...Er, I'm not sure. It's a very common aphorism, 'don't complain of your life, you could *not* have even that'. Some comedian created it, or so I've heard.

===================
Now, my translation of GF was hideous, as I've mentioned not once before, but translating GF must be a tough task to accomplish even for the professionals, due to the excess of puns and special terms in the game.

VampireNaomi
12-28-2005, 04:50 AM
Wow, this conversation sure had turned deep. I have no idea what to contribute without interrupting you.

I think I'll start by admitting that Charie may have been right all along. Now that I really think about it (and everybody's examples helped a lot) it sounds absurd that being a Reaper is the only way for a soul to work off his/her time. I still think it's one of the worst, if not the worst, job offered, but definitely not the only one. So you all got me there.

About afterlife, does anyone believe in reincarnation? I'm positive that I was once a dog, no matter how utterly ridiculous it may sound. Laugh if you want, I don't mind. I think reincarnation is a very soothing option. If this life is a disappointment you may do better in the next. Of course, if one is one of those people who want to believe in eternal rest it may seem like hell instead.

However, what I don't like in the idea of reincarnation is that eventually you join the world spirit and become one with everyone else. Loosing one's individuality sounds awful.

Out of interest, do either of you believe in any sort of god or higher being?

Charie
12-28-2005, 06:16 AM
VampireNaomi
I think I'll start by admitting that Charie may have been right all along.
Oh, the balsam on my heart :).

About afterlife, does anyone believe in reincarnation? I'm positive that I was once a dog, no matter how utterly ridiculous it may sound. Laugh if you want, I don't mind.
I certainly won't laugh, if you mean this seriously - and you seem to. Why do you think you were a dog? And what kind of a dog: a slad dog, or a house-pet, or a hound, or a stray one? That's important. :rolleyes:
I neither believe nor disbelieve in reincarnation, I just like the idea. It sounds interesting. If I had some previous life, I guess it would have been only once, a long time ago, and I wouldn't have been any sentient creature. A pebble fallen in lava.

However, what I don't like in the idea of reincarnation is that eventually you join the world spirit and become one with everyone else. Loosing one's individuality sounds awful.
Is there such an idea, indeed? I think there are different concepts of reincarnation. Besides, 'loosing one's individuality' somehow contradicts the main idea, don't you think? There still must be left something of you, like a core, a basement of a soul, for reincarnation to posess some meaning. Loosing one's individual memories is different, however that is also arguable. Everything is arguable - and sort of impossible to prove - when it concerns Gods, reincarnations and other creations of idle human mind.

Out of interest, do either of you believe in any sort of god or heigher being?
What about you?
I believe in Allah. Don't have much choice here, figuratively speaking; plus, 'people believe what they want to believe', Nick got it quite right.

VampireNaomi
12-28-2005, 06:52 AM
Why do you think you were a dog? And what kind of a dog: a slad dog, or a house-pet, or a hound, or a stray one? That's important.

I have no idea. It's just a feeling that I've had ever since I was a child. And I don't know what kind of dog I might have been either. Just a silly hunch that won't go away. :D

Is there such an idea, indeed?

In Hinduism at least, I think. The idea is that once you've lived a life good enough you can break free from the chain of being born again and again and become part of the world spirit which is what all souls crave for. Individuality is nothing but an illusion and in reality we're all part of a greater being instead of our own person.

I think there are different concepts of reincarnation.

Most likely. However, I only know the one I mentioned earlier.

What about you?

I do believe in something, but I'm not quite sure what. I call myself Christian, but I don't think I'm a true one. I'm sure there is God, in some form at least.

I believe in Allah. Don't have much choice here, figuratively speaking; plus, 'people believe what they want to believe', Nick got it quite right.

Really? Why do you think you have no choice? Family pressures or something else? You're the first person who I've met who believes in Allah, online or real life. Then again, I don't really see a difference between Him and the God Christians and Jews believe in.

EDIT: El Virus, the delete option should be the first thing you see when you try to edit a message. If that still doesn't work for you, I can delete the double post, if you want.

El Virus
12-28-2005, 08:52 AM
First let me apologize for the typos on my previous post; I was writing fast and didn't take the time to check it.


Yes, not giving a damn and not being required to give a damn is bliss.
Do you really want to grow up, and do you count yourself mature? I suppose you have a good reason for that. I, on my part, don't want to grow up at all, never. And, so far, I haven't, however I'm afraid this might not last long (but I surely have a chance, just look at my father: fifty-six or so years old and not much more mature than me; much more intelligent and clever, though, of course). I still pretend most of the time (a habit), and I don't feel any 'moral allowances' bounding me. But I'm a bad example.
Why do those acquaintances of yours claim you had no childhood?

That has been the thing with me; all I ever cared for was being old enough to do whatever I wanted (not that it is a strange thing; it is quite common, I think); and I lost my chances to enjoy some situations.

I still adore imagining too, and it is why I practically never get bored, but it's not the same now.

My friends mock at me for my pessimism and apparent dislike towards childhood; mainly because they would like to be kids again, while I wouldn't. But we mock at each other for many things, and they see me as the pessimist of the bunch.


Oh, indeed. I suppose I really did mean 'stability', which you have doubts about. Allah knows, I yearn for stabilty.
Besides, 'happy life's' concept, for me, involves mostly being as much content with it's course as possible; with failures, but always something to look forward to. And good warm people around, of course. And some sort of inner harmony. Sadness will always find a way, anyway, I don't need any additional.

I like stability, but it is the monotony I cannot stand. One of the things that I like about life is not knowing what to expect, and being forced to improvise some time or another.
But don't get the impression that I'm a bum who is constantly changing his mind and leaving everything; because I am quite a stable and routinary person.

That line about you hating yourself for 'that' - does 'that' refer to 'being comfortable with' your life?

Somewhat.
I 'hate' myself because I am part of a struggling middle-class normal family, have caring parents, etc. so I shouldn't be complaining, as there are tons of people who have it worse than me.
And this is also an issue, as I do not dare tell anyone when I feel sad or un-happy, just because I am certain they will tell me that I am being silly.


That's good for you - worrying about people you care for, I mean. I don't think I really care about anybody but myself, as crude as that sounds.

Don't think that I care about many people; the amount of relatives and acquaintances I get along with is quite small.

Now, my translation of GF was hideous, as I've mentioned not once before, but translating GF must be a tough task to accomplish even for the professionals, due to the excess of puns and special terms in the game.

What language was your game in? Russian?


About afterlife, does anyone believe in reincarnation? I'm positive that I was once a dog, no matter how utterly ridiculous it may sound. Laugh if you want, I don't mind. I think reincarnation is a very soothing option. If this life is a disappointment you may do better in the next. Of course, if one is one of those people who want to believe in eternal rest it may seem like hell instead.

I'm not too fond of the idea of reincarnation, mainly because having to go through all my life again would be tedious.
However, I like the idea of coming back to the world and being abke to start over; but just as a thought.

Out of interest, do either of you believe in any sort of god or heigher being?

No, I I am a convinced atheist, and lost my faith a long time ago.

As any normal young idealist, I went through a period when I wanted to find a suitable religion; since I found none that I actually could believe in, I settled with agnosticism.

Later on, after several events in my life (some of those, tragic ones), I began to actually question the subject; and I soon came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a deity (that was about the same time I found philosophy, art and history; which now take the task of being the subjects I read about most).
I also became closer to my father and my aunt (who share my views); and I am starting to get fed up with 'the Catholic Church', which is a debate for another time.



If you allow me to say it; you two are the most open-minded religious persons I know, and I truly respect you for that.



El Virus, the delete option should be the first thing you see when you try to edit a message. If that still doesn't work for you, I can delete the double post, if you want.

It isn't there. But I don't want to trouble you.

Charie
12-28-2005, 09:01 AM
While I was typing (at a snail's pace), there appeared another post. Damn.

VampireNaomi
The idea is that once you've lived a life good enough you can break free from the chain of being born again and again and become part of the world spirit which is what all souls crave for.
Aaah, now I remember hearing that somewhere, a long time ago. Well, that idea about becoming part of the 'world spirit' doesn't seem that bad to me, especially in comparison with no afterlife at all.

Really? Why do you think you have no choice? Family pressures or something else? You're the first person who I've met who believes in Allah, online or real life. Then again, I don't really see a difference between Him and the God Christians and Jews believe in.
What is real here, is that you shouldn't take me very seriously in this (and most of the other serious matters, mind you). My family comes from Muslims, Judaists and Christians, but my parents are atheists, so I wasn't taught to believe in God - quite the opposite, even. And I'm not educated in religion enough to state here something - so I won't.
I don't talk religion when I meet Muslims or Judaists from my family, or family friends (which happens quite rarely since I live here and most of them there), I don't even try to pretend I understand it.

=====================
I don't have the DELETE option, either.

VampireNaomi
12-28-2005, 10:38 AM
No, I I am a convinced atheist, and lost my faith a long time ago.

I think that suits you. Even before I asked the question I sort of knew you would say that. I can't explain it, but you have a some sort of intellectual and non-religious air around you.

If you allow me to say it; you two are the most open-minded religious persons I know, and I truly respect you for that.

And you're the most open-minded atheist I know. Too many people have laughed at my face for believing in anything and called me a mindless slave to the church.

It isn't there. But I don't want to trouble you.

It's no trouble, really. Just one click of a button. ;)

What is real here, is that you shouldn't take me very seriously in this (and most of the other serious matters, mind you). My family comes from Muslims, Judaists and Christians, but my parents are atheists, so I wasn't taught to believe in God - quite the opposite, even. And I'm not educated in religion enough to state here something - so I won't.
I don't talk religion when I meet Muslims or Judaists from my family, or family friends (which happens quite rarely since I live here and most of them there), I don't even try to pretend I understand it.

I wouldn't say that. All your posts have been very insightful this far. Besides, does anybody really know anything worthwhile abour religions? Sure, we can quote the laws etc, but what I consider to be more important are people's personal views on them.

I don't have the DELETE option, either.

That's odd. Looks like only moderators can delete posts, then. Pretty annoying, and I'm sure I could delete mine when I had just joined. Perhaps the board update changed that.

Charie
12-28-2005, 11:04 AM
El Virus
As a short introduction, one of the words I use most often is 'hate'. I hate people who are cleverer than me, they make me feel mentally incompetent, and I hate those who are more stupid than I am, for the same reason, basically. Conclusion here is that, probably, I just hate humans on the whole (or, more preciesly, interacting with them).
So much for the lyrical digression.

That has been the thing with me; all I ever cared for was being old enough to do whatever I wanted <...>; and I lost my chances to enjoy some situations.
What could a child possibly want that isn't allowed to him? Or maybe it's just me, I was (and am) a spoiled child, never really denied anything I wanted. What situations are you talking about?

I still adore imagining too, and it is why I practically never get bored, but it's not the same now.
I also don't play pirates under the table anymore; I wouldn't fit in there.
Though yes, it's hard for me to get bored, as well; however in my case I believe it is due to overall idleness, not vivid imagination.

-----------------------------
I wouldn't want to become a kid again; I've always believed that my current age is the best one ever.

You know, that's a strange thought - about you as a child. I can imagine some much too serious for his own good, pondering little guy, astounding adults with his pessimistic philosophic views of the universe and refusing to eat candy or run along with other kids in favour of reading Socrates.
I remember that when I was around thirteen, I once went to some distant aquaitance's of mother's house and there was this child, not older than eight, who was wise and intelligent as I'll never grow to be. One of the most embarrasing experiences in my life, it was. It's incredible how some adults can be so dumb, and virtually toddlers so sage. Though I suppose being as completely average as I am is... average.

One of the things that I like about life is not knowing what to expect, and being forced to improvise some time or another.
But don't get the impression that I'm a bum who is constantly changing his mind and leaving everything.
I didn't get such an impression at all, don't worry: in your case it seems unlikely.
By the way, it's one of the things about my life I hate most: not knowing what to expect. Surprises. Mostly, both pleasant and unpleasant surprises end up badly for me. It's some talent I've got here, I suspect.

I 'hate' myself because I am part of a struggling middle-class normal family, have caring parents, etc. so I shouldn't be complaining, as there are tons of people who have it worse than me.
And this is also an issue, as I do not dare tell anyone when I feel sad or un-happy, just because I am certain they will tell me that I am being silly.
Yep, when I'm complaining, they always tell me just that: that there're others who suffer much much more than I do, and I'm just being blind egoistic. Oh, and, of course, that everything is in the end my own fault. As if I didn't know that myself.
I don't think that 'it could be worse' is a credible argument, however. See, it always could be worse, no matter the situation.
As for not being able to tell anyone how you really feel - well, that only means you didn't find a right 'someone', yet.

Don't think that I care about many people; the amount of relatives and acquaintances I get along with is quite small.
I didn't think that. Sincerely caring about the small amount of close people is what is considered normal. And good. It's certainly way better than not worrying about anybody but yourself.

What language was your game in? Russian?
Hmpf. If you call that monstrosity I have on my disk Russian, then yes.

If you allow me to say it; you two are the most open-minded religious persons I know, and I truly respect you for that.
Perhaps that's because we are not really religious.

I'm not sure what does the mysterious notion 'young idealist' mean, especially a normal one, but once I sort of mused it would be nice to have a religion. Out of interest. As for Islam - I still didn't find a time to explore the religion properly (all because of Harry Potter), but I want to believe and I will, it's as simple as that (well, plus a couple of personal little matters). Until I don't want. Allah help me. You won't find deep philosophical meaning when concerning me; I don't appreciate profound sacraments and grave approach to the subject (any subject) very much.

VampireNaomi
you're the most open-minded atheist I know. Too many people have laughed at my face for believing in anything and called me a mindless slave to the church.
Those people you've met before were not atheists but downright cretins, then. If they think difference in belief somehow exuses rudeness.
Uhuh, one atheistic guy I liked very much once told me that, in his opinion, no belief is also a belief. Like, you know, a person has to believe in something, be that money, or Buddah, or fluffy little elephants in his head.

Besides, does anybody really know anything worthwhile abour religions?
:lol: There's a kernel of truth there.
As for my personal views on my own religion - wait until I read Koran. Not happening in the near future, though.

El Virus
12-28-2005, 11:13 PM
I think that suits you. Even before I asked the question I sort of knew you would say that. I can't explain it, but you have a some sort of intellectual and non-religious air around you.

Why, thanks ;).

And you're the most open-minded atheist I know. Too many people have laughed at my face for believing in anything and called me a mindless slave to the church.

Not really, it all depends on the person and the situation I am confronted with.

I've certainly had my clashes with those extremely religious fellers who are not willing to give in on an argument and are extremely intolerant towards those different to them (Over birth control, ethics, Darwin and the government of my country, mostly). And as I have mentioned before, I hold a grudge against Church.


It's no trouble, really. Just one click of a button.

That's odd. Looks like only moderators can delete posts, then. Pretty annoying, and I'm sure I could delete mine when I had just joined. Perhaps the board update changed that.

Fine then, it is the same for me. This type of things gets my post count going, but it should be erased.
Anyway, it's your call.

I recall being able to delete posts two months ago, they must have changed it :fist:.

As a short introduction, one of the words I use most often is 'hate'. I hate people who are cleverer than me, they make me feel mentally incompetent, and I hate those who are more stupid than I am, for the same reason, basically. Conclusion here is that, probably, I just hate humans on the whole (or, more preciesly, interacting with them).
So much for the lyrical digression.

Same happens to me, practically. People who are far cleverer than me or know more than me in a given area, I can stand up to a certain point, then I just get fed up with what they have to say; and those who are what I consider to be 'idiotic ignorants' (I know a lot of these, they seem to be piling up on the streets and in my classroom) I tend to have some difficulty relating to. But it depends on each individual.


What could a child possibly want that isn't allowed to him? Or maybe it's just me, I was (and am) a spoiled child, never really denied anything I wanted. What situations are you talking about?

I am a spoiled child too, which is not a hard thing to realise or to admit.

And I am happy with my life so far; but it's the possibility to do whatever you want without restrictions and the chance to have a job, what I like most about adulthood. I am also starting to get tired of school or any sort of mandatory studying, which is another purpose.

You know, that's a strange thought - about you as a child. I can imagine some much too serious for his own good, pondering little guy, astounding adults with his pessimistic philosophic views of the universe and refusing to eat candy or run along with other kids in favour of reading Socrates.

Nah; I was a normal kid, who was just a tad more serious and timid than the rest.

But your idea describes my current adolescence better; and accurately, if you add that eccentric attire of mine.

By the way, it's one of the things about my life I hate most: not knowing what to expect. Surprises. Mostly, both pleasant and unpleasant surprises end up badly for me. It's some talent I've got here, I suspect.

That's the bad side of it, a lot of surprises in life are unpleasant; and sadness takes away most of the happiness we have left.

For me, and up-tight guy who worries about everything(and I mean it), that can be quite tough.

Randomness is still good, though.

Yep, when I'm complaining, they always tell me just that: that there're others who suffer much much more than I do, and I'm just being blind egoistic. Oh, and, of course, that everything is in the end my own fault. As if I didn't know that myself.
I don't think that 'it could be worse' is a credible argument, however. See, it always could be worse, no matter the situation.

Being told that repeatedly makes you feel bad about yourself, and in addition even insignificant; which only makes the problem worse.
Ahh, parents...

As for not being able to tell anyone how you really feel - well, that only means you didn't find a right 'someone', yet.

Definitely. A shoulder to cry on, and somebody willing to listen, is one of the most positive things about a relationship.


I didn't think that. Sincerely caring about the small amount of close people is what is considered normal. And good. It's certainly way better than not worrying about anybody but yourself.

I've always been told that friendship is the most important thing, and those clichés. So I always thought that having twenty friends was normal.

Of course, I don't give a damn about that. All I want is a circle of three friends to talk with about subjects I find interesting (kind of why I joined this place).

And about you; you seem to care about your father a lot, or at least you talk well about him, which makes me think you are not as self-minded as you claim to be ;).

Hmpf. If you call that monstrosity I have on my disk Russian, then yes.

I don't suppose it was translated into Lithuanian or any other Baltic language; so forgive me if I was a bit speculative :).

I cannot imagine that game in a Slavic language; it would have differed a lot.

(all because of Harry Potter)

What's with Harry Potter?, I never got around reading those, and I have been driven off now by all the publicity and fuss around it.

I'm not sure what does the mysterious notion 'young idealist' mean, especially a normal one, but once I sort of mused it would be nice to have a religion. Out of interest. As for Islam - I still didn't find a time to explore the religion properly (all because of Harry Potter), but I want to believe and I will, it's as simple as that (well, plus a couple of personal little matters). Until I don't want. Allah help me. You won't find deep philosophical meaning when concerning me; I don't appreciate profound sacraments and grave approach to the subject (any subject) very much.

I find the way you decided to go for a religion you did not know about much, and had not been thought to believe in, to be very interesting.
It certainly proves your determination and individuality. Besides, it's not as if it were Christianity, which is quite common; but Islamism, which due to the leading hegemonies, is a margined belief.

I think that a positive thing about religion is that I can give people hope.

Charie
12-29-2005, 04:23 AM
El Virus
I hold a grudge against Church
What - personally? Why would you care, if you don't believe it?

-----------------------------
About clever/stupid folks.
Perhaps it comes from the sense of superiority, when 'far cleverer' people wouldn't want to descend to the level of those whom they consider mentally inferior, same as we wouldn't be eager to talk to those silly, in our opinion.
However I haven't met many fools in my life. My class had always been considered 'intelligent elite' of the school, and for a reason. It's terrific to live every day among oh-so-clever-perfect-scholar-minded coevals, and it also presents a perfect challenge. Oh, well... I suppose I've done worst of all after graduation.

It's the possibility to do whatever you want without restrictions and the chance to have a job, what I like most about adulthood. I am also starting to get tired of school or any sort of mandatory studying, which is another purpose.
I still don't get what restrictions you are talking about. Those raised by the lack of your own money? Next, where do you work, if it's not top-secret, and what's so great about it?
That's just the issue with me. I know I need to go and work, but I'm scared to the core at the prospect. I don't qualify for anything good (much like that 'bunch of burros' Manny complained about), and finding a common low-rate job isn't quite a future I've always pictured for myself; I still can't accept this reality. Bury my head in the sand, currently.
What about Universities, aren't you going to enter one?

But your idea describes my current adolescence better; and accurately, if you add that eccentric attire of mine.
That's intriguing. And how would you describe your attire-style, in detail? Why do you call it 'eccentric'?

For me, an up-tight guy who worries about everything(and I mean it), that can be quite tough.
Me too, I also worry too much about everything - though, mainly, everything highly insignificant.

Ahh, parents...
:lol: I guess they think the same about us.

A shoulder to cry on, and somebody willing to listen, is one of the most positive things about a relationship.
'A shoulder to cry on', coming from a bloke, sounds so... so... cute! You know, men are supposed to provide a shoulder, not use one.

I've always been told that friendship is the most important thing, and those clichés. So I always thought that having twenty friends was normal.<...>
And about you; you seem to care about your father a lot, or at least you talk well about him, which makes me think you are not as self-minded as you claim to be .
Hm, it doesn't seem proper to call the importance of friendship a 'cliche'. However, that 'twenty friends' reference of yours sounds nothing but ridiculous to me. I don't think one can possibly have many real friends; while 'fellows', for the lack of the better word, are entirely optional. Or I don't know; I've always accepted that to call somebody a Friend means a lot.

About me: yeees, I'm a father's daughter. He's great, intelligent, abstract-minded, and we share the same temperament-type and many passions (like an omnipresent Harry Potter, or idle talk about the construction of the universe); besides, I know I owe him.
But I'm somehow afraid that my own comfort would always come first for me. Anyway, I'm not willing to find out.

I don't suppose it was translated into Lithuanian or any other Baltic language; so forgive me if I was a bit speculative .
I cannot imagine that game in a Slavic language; it would have differed a lot.
I haven't heard about the Lithuanian translation, but it might exist. Don't assume I know Lithuanian well enough, though, that I can tell you. I wonder which language I know worse: English or Lithuanian. However, the latter sounds horrible to my ears and I'm not even going to try to learn it.
Why can't you imagine a GF in Russian? If properly done, it could have been great. *sighs for Soviet school of doubling movies*

What's with Harry Potter?, I never got around reading those, and I have been driven off now by all the publicity and fuss around it.
That was a grave mistake of yours to tempt me to talk about Potter. The last time I've talked about it, in real life, I had lost my voice eventually.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I've read the first book when there had already been four translations of them and the first movie, - by pure accident. I simply had an excess of money in my pocket and, walking by a bookstore, I idly mused whether that pompous sensation was actually worth reading. So I've bought the first one, spontaneously. The next day I've bought the second one, and the third the day after that. And the fourth, then. And later went to see the movie on it's last show in the local theatre (by the way, I still think that the first movie is the best). And since then, for four years or so now, I'm HP fan.

When I was reading the first few books for the first time, it was about magic in our real world, as if you could only look a little closer and notice it all around; it was a sort of a detective story in each tome, with an unpredicted (for me) villain; but, most important of all, it was and still is about PEOPLE. Their tangled relationships, prejudices and misunderstandings.

But as the things got further and Rowling proceeded writing the next books of Potteriana, it finally became clearly apparent that with Rowling nothing is what it seems. The first books, told from the point of view of a young Harry, appeared to be fairy-tales and nice magic stories only because of that: that Harry was young and didn't notice or comprehend much.
And now it seems that Potteriana have finally risen in it's true shape: a great post-modernistic detective story, where the author is a 'fugitive', and all the readers are 'detectives', trying to solve the clues in the text and find out the truth, eventually. You may imagine the trepidation with which the last book is being awaited, the one that will hold keys to most of the amazing mysteries.

But it is still a book about people, enclosed in the grand scheme of Rowling (and the character Dumbledore, the greatest magician of our times, or so it seems). The in-book un-meta plot of the story evolves around a man who became much like Hitler in the Wizarding World of Great Britain, his life, decisions and activity; and is told, with an exception of three chapters through all six current books, from the point of view of a young Harry Potter, a child and, later, adolescent with his own heavy issues and many flaws, but nevertheless fabulously kind and brave person, thrown - by the mighty union of Fate, Headmaster Dumbledore and JK Rowling - in a midst of frightful, adult and not a little painful events.

The characterization is sublime, every person appearing on the pages of Potteriana is a complete and fascinating individuality. There are no 'bad' or 'good' people in in the whole story; each and every one of them are human beings, sometimes with the most fantastic mixes of personality traits possible, and with their own sensible (or not very mush so) reasons to do what they are doing, their own feelings and history.

And on the top of it all that lies the grand scheme, which is reffered to as The Big Game of Professor Dumbledore sometimes, where it's each character is a piece of the major puzzle, and a puzzle in himself.
Harry Potter is still about magic, certainly, but only a bit. Potteriana is full of humor, puns, creative mythology and many, many dark adult matters, or simply adult and serious. You know, it's a story about Life.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I reckon I owe you an apology for this listless excursus into Potter; it seems the book can't cease putting me in the 'Lupe' mode.

I think that a positive thing about religion is that I can give people hope.
What kind of hope do you mean?
For me, it's mainly a guidance, and additional much-needed help in difficult desicios. Provides some sort of inner peace, as well. If by 'hope' you mean an idea of not being alone, then you might be right. In my case, I mean.

Well, it's just kind of inane matter I would like to believe in, it is all the same insignificant in the daily routine.

VampireNaomi
12-29-2005, 05:14 AM
Fine then, it is the same for me. This type of things gets my post count going, but it should be erased.

Well, I'll get rid of it after posting this. It's been a while since I got to play God and I need my delusions of power.

What - personally? Why would you care, if you don't believe it?

I know this was directed at El Virus, but a lot of atheists I know don't like the church because it tries to control people's lives and is eager to judge those who don't live by the moral rules they've set. Also, lots of inhuman actions have taken place because of church. Then again, it also depends on what church we're talking about.

Virus, you're probably under the influence of the Catholic Church, am I right?

Charie, your views on Harry Potter are fascinating. I preferred the first four books because they were the only ones that surprised me in the end. The last two have been a little too obvious and I guess I miss the childlike innocence of the first books. Still, they're definitely worth reading and shouldn't be overlooked just because they're popular.

Virus, who is that in your current avatar? Lenin?

Charie
12-29-2005, 07:00 AM
VampireNaomi
I know this was directed at El Virus, but a lot of atheists I know don't like the church because it tries to control people's lives and is eager to judge those who don't live by the moral rules they've set. Also, lots of inhuman actions have taken place because of church.
Ya, that's what I was asking about: whether that 'grudge' involves something more personal or is it only overall sense of righteousness. The notion of 'having a grudge against something' includes some degree of personal involvment, I would think.

I certainly agree that various religeous institutions throughout the world, when controlled by greedy cool-hearted bastards of people, use faith as an exuse and a tool to coerce human masses to whatever is advantageous to solely them. This has always been like this and unfortunately still is. You know, I just don't get it: just why would people want to commit murders, wage wars and, on the whole, cause so much suffering to each other?
I don't know History at all, but somehow examples of crimes commited under the pretence of religeous doctrines jump into head on their own accord.

However, it still has nothing to do with religeon itself. Religeon is about the way to make yourslf a better person, to live peacefully under some or other common human rules, and seek knowledge/enlightment. Do you remember any sacred rule which would tell, 'go and kill each other, my beloved children; steal and cause harm, neglect and abuse'? Pf. If there is, it's some too smart editor's remark, I'm certain. Like those Gospels by Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, each of them adding something of his own creation (not bad things, of course, mainly). John especially. (Mark has my respect in this matter, though). And then copysts continuing broadening the tale.
And religeon is personal. You don't have to answer to anybody except yourself and the God. And common sense wasn't canceled either.

I preferred the first four books because they were the only ones that surprised me in the end. <...>, they're definitely worth reading and shouldn't be overlooked just because they're popular.
For you Kreacher was obvious? For me not in the world. And I'm ashamed to admit I haven't read the sixth book; only a third part of it, the night it appeared for the public, in the wave of everyone's around me enthusiasm. Not that I don't want to, it's just that I still... plan to. Mhm. All my HP-friends have read it a long time ago, certainly, my father included. We even had a row once on the sore subject of Snape's loyalties.

I love the way later books open your eyes on the events in the previous ones. Every line somehow significant, and smallest details from the past playing a big part in the future events. And vice-versa. And, of course, the complicated inter-character relationships, starting with the first books - it's just not obvious there, until you stop taking them as fairy-tales but a whole same reality.

'My views' on Harry Potter are combined views of fandom, with a great influence of my favoutire 'Big Game' fan-research.

------------------------------------------------------
Lenin must be bald. Couldn't be him.

VampireNaomi
12-29-2005, 07:27 AM
However, it still has nothing to do with religeon itself. Religeon is about the way to make yourslf a better person, to live peacefully under some or other common human rules, and seek knowledge/enlightment. Do you remember any sacred rule which would tell, 'go and kill each other, my beloved children; steal and cause harm, neglect and abuse'? Pf. If there is, it's some too smart editor's remark, I'm certain.

Couldn't have said it better myself. If only more people, religious and non-religious equally, understood that. Besides, I don't think one needs the church to be religious. I mean, if someone has a problem with the chuch, they can still be religious on their own, right?

I also grow quite frustrated with people who insist that killing in the name of religion is right. Especially since these people are usually the first to judge women who've had an abortion etc.

For you Kreacher was obvious? For me not in the world. And I'm ashamed to admit I haven't read the sixth book; only a third part of it, the night it appeared for the public, in the wave of everyone's around me enthusiasm. Not that I don't want to, it's just that I still... plan to. Mhm. All my HP-friends have read it a long time ago, certainly, my father included. We even had a row once on the sore subject of Snape's loyalties.

Now that you mention it, I can't remember if I guessed Kreacher's involvement, but at least it wasn't a shock in the same way the Crouch Jr. thing was in the fourth book. That was something totally unexpected.

I love the way later books open your eyes on the events in the previous ones. Every line somehow significant, and smallest details from the past playing a big part in the future events. And vice-versa. And, of course, the complicated inter-character relationships, starting with the first books - it's just not obvious there, until you stop taking them as fairy-tales but a whole same reality.

True, true. It's fascinating how the later books make you go back to the previous ones to find the hints hidden there. I particularly liked how Sirius was mentioned in the first book even though he became important in the third one. Such a small detail, but it makes the world seem a lot more real.

Lenin must be bald. Couldn't be him.

True. That's was confused me. Without the hair he would look a little like Lenin.

Charie
12-29-2005, 08:02 AM
VampireNaomi
I also grow quite frustrated with people who insist that killing in the name of religion is right.
They are just mad. I don't know. I can't comprehend it in the slightest. The 'killing in the name of religion' usually stands for 'in the name of some big evil guy in the current highest ranks of religion's main institution', or so I think. Somebody obviously needs it.

Now that you mention it, I can't remember if I guessed Kreacher's involvement, but at least it wasn't a shock in the same way the Crouch Jr. thing was in the fourth book. That was something totally unexpected.
For me Quirrel, Ginny, Pettigrew, Crouch Jr. and Kreacher were all highly unexpected. Perhaps by the time of the fifth book we've just grown accustomed to such surprises and took it as a habit to suspect each and everyone. Constant vigilance)).
Besides, wasn't Snape a shock in himself, even despite the Unbreakable Vow?

I particularly liked how Sirius was mentioned in the first book even though he became important in the third one. Such a small detail, but it makes the world seem a lot more real.
Oh, I need to reread all the books, frankly. I don't remember details. What was he doing there, for real?.. Too late to warn Potters, if memory serves me.

VampireNaomi
12-29-2005, 09:02 AM
The 'killing in the name of religion' usually stands for 'in the name of some big evil guy in the current highest ranks of religion's main institution', or so I think. Somebody obviously needs it.

Indeed. People should learn to think themselves instead of following some madman.

Besides, wasn't Snape a shock in himself, even despite the Unbreakable Vow?

Not really. I had been suspecting him for quite a while.

What was he doing there, for real?.. Too late to warn Potters, if memory serves me.

Hagrid mentions him in the beginning and says that he borrowed Sirius' motor cycle.

Quite fascinating how this thread came from discussing Manny's "reaperdom" to religion and Harry Potter.

El Virus
12-29-2005, 09:57 AM
So many things to quote...
This one is going to be long.

My class had always been considered 'intelligent elite' of the school, and for a reason. It's terrific to live every day among oh-so-clever-perfect-scholar-minded coevals, and it also presents a perfect challenge.

Heh, it's the complete opposite here. My class is considered the worst. Teachers are constantly comparing us to the rest of the high school, mainly because most misbehave and don't do well at school. And what is even better, we have earned the reputation of being the class that complains about anything so they do not take us seriously anymore.

What bothers me the most is that I go to a private institution (not exactly cheap), and the place is a mess. On winter, we have no proper heating (er, last year there was a gas leak; so we had to stand all winter without a heater); our blackboard can’t be written on; we have power shortages; on summer, there is no air conditioning, only a fan (which is broken, by the way), and due to the noisy street we have to have the windows closed. One would think that they would use the money they make for repairs, but they keep it al to themselves.

Sorry, I have to vent & bitch somewhere.

I still don't get what restrictions you are talking about. Those raised by the lack of your own money? Next, where do you work, if it's not top-secret, and what's so great about it?

I would like to have the career I want to (I am sure that I will be a workaholic, some time or another), being taken more seriously and having more responsibilities; thats all.
I don't work, officially at least. It's not common over here for a minor to do sod. But I am working as my father's assistant; and could have a chance in some other jobs, but working right now does not good for me.

And the only way I can become a private investigator with a degree on forensic science is if I go to a University and do a six-month course on PI.
At least that's what I want to become now; but my love for History may have some say in what I do sooner or later.

Do you have any idea of what you'd like to follow?
Finding the right career is probably one of the most important and difficult decisions one has to make (or so I have been told).


That's intriguing. And how would you describe your attire-style, in detail? Why do you call it 'eccentric'?

I'll make it short, because I could go on forever.

Elegant and Vintage clothing are my thing. Hats, suits, shoes, you name it; especially those of the 40s. The problem is that a 16-year old dressed on such 'elaborate' things is usually seen as somebody who wants attention (ironically, I hate being in the spotlight). Try to wear a boater hat on summer without people laughing at you.
It's eccentric because dressing on things of an exclusive period is rather strange; people usually say "It's the XXIst century, you now?" or similar things (or just stare at you). (Of course, I might dress more casually on summer, but the rest of the year it's like that).

Ahh, materialism...

'A shoulder to cry on', coming from a bloke, sounds so... so... cute! You know, men are supposed to provide a shoulder, not use one.

I could answer with a stereotype about women, you know :p

The truth, I am one of those sensible men; which can be a curse sometimes.

I've always accepted that to call somebody a Friend means a lot.

That is why I barely use it; it is a word that should be reserved for people one truly cares for, and I still don't have many opportunities to use it.

Are either of you the kind who make friends easily?

Why can't you imagine a GF in Russian?

I adore that language, but somehow a game that has so much Spanish content must be strange; they didn’t include words in Spanish, did they?

Is Russian your main language?

I've read the first book when there had already been four translations of them and the first movie, - by pure accident. I simply had an excess of money in my pocket and, walking by a bookstore, I idly mused whether that pompous sensation was actually worth reading.
[…]
You know, it's a story about Life.

That's one deep way to put it. I always thought it to be a commercially overrated thing; guess I'll have to spare my prejudice.

But fantasy...I've never cared about the genre.

I think that a positive thing about religion is that I can give people hope.

:¬: Sorry, that should have been 'it'. It's amazing how a simple letter missing and capitalizing the one remaining can change the meaning of a sentence, and make one look like a god.

It can give people hope, for it helps as a guide, for some; and it gives strength to others.

-For me Quirrel, Ginny, Pettigrew, Crouch Jr. and Kreacher were all highly unexpected. Perhaps by the time of the fifth book we've just grown accustomed to such surprises and took it as a habit to suspect each and everyone. Constant vigilance)).
Besides, wasn't Snape a shock in himself, even despite the Unbreakable Vow?

-Hagrid mentions him in the beginning and says that he borrowed Sirius' motor cycle.

I don't get a word of what you're saying...

What - personally? Why would you care, if you don't believe it?

But it has to do with what VampireNaomi said.

[Before you read what follows, keep in mind I am a biased person]

If there is something I believe in, is the separation between Religion and Politics. They are two different things, and should never go together.
The first is something that you might believe in or not; if you do, you'll probably stick by the values preached by it; if you don't, there is no reason why you should be forced to. And the latter, politics, is something that needs to exist (unless you believe that every sort of governmental institution is wrong; but you would be an Anarchist, and that is an ideology as well), without it Man wouldn't be organized, and civilization as we know it wouldn't exist.
Now, the deal with the Catholic Church is that they are trying to influence governments all over the world; and that does matter me. This is especially true in my country, were we have many high-ranked church members criticizing every move towards civil liberties. Abortion for example is an issue that they constantly keep trying to influence people in; and the things that they are willing to spread just to stop it are incredible (i.e. "Abortion is murder, choose life!"). This will sound extremist, but every move they make in favor of their selfish beliefs (I'm not even sure what they get out of it, money?, power?; they certainly couldn't care less about people), is one more move against total freedom.


I also grow quite frustrated with people who insist that killing in the name of religion is right.

"God told me to invade I_ _q" A president once said; this is a sybol to anything I think is wrong.

No matter in the name of what huge cause, killing is probably never right. War is a real stupidity, and despite how many things leaders claim, they are not doing it in the name of freedom, but for their own profit. At least, that's in theory; there are extreme cases, and those need to be dealt with on some way.

Just out of curiosity and with other purposes; what's your stance on abortion?

But, I'm getting carried away, and I am not looking foward to hurt anybody.

Virus, who is that in your current avatar? Lenin?

Close. It's Leon Trotsky, whom I always thought to be more capable than Vladimir Lenin himself. On a way, it's a real shame he was murdered.

I think I am going for this avatar, but I don't know.


*Sigh*

VampireNaomi
12-29-2005, 11:03 AM
What bothers me the most is that I go to a private institution (not exactly cheap), and the place is a mess. On winter, we have no proper heating (er, last year there was a gas leak; so we had to stand all winter without a heater); our blackboard can’t be written on; we have power shortages; on summer, there is no air conditioning, only a fan (which is broken, by the way), and due to the noisy street we have to have the windows closed. One would think that they would use the money they make for repairs, but they keep it al to themselves.

Wow, that's unbelievable. Can't you complain to someone or even sue whoever is in charge? Or are there any other possible schools in the area? How can they expect anyone to put any effort into their studies in a environment like that?

And the only way I can become a private investigator with a degree on forensic science is if I go to a University and do a six-month course on PI.

Private investigator? That would be awsome. I think you've got the right state of mind to be one of those world-weary detectives you see in the old movies. At least you know enough about history, politics, philosphy etc. to have interesting internal monologues. Good luck with chasing your dream.

I don't really know what to say to your problem with the Catholic Church. The situation your describe is alien to me and I have no idea what it is like to live in a country where the church has so much power. As you said, the church should have no say in politics. Didn't some very important guy say that? Martin Luther or someone like that?

Close. It's Leon Trotsky, whom I always thought to be more capable than Vladimir Lenin himself. On a way, it's a real shame he was murdered.

Ow, didn't even think of him. I really should visit the Lenin Museum some time to get to know these things.

El Virus
12-30-2005, 12:14 AM
Wow, that's unbelievable. Can't you complain to someone or even sue whoever is in charge? Or are there any other possible schools in the area? How can they expect anyone to put any effort into their studies in a environment like that?


Nah, it's a waste of time.
I agree with what you say, but they tend to avoid me anyway.

The good thing about my school is that it's educational level is better than that of a public school, and it gives me the chance to take many international exams.

The problem here is that public schools are in even worse conditions, and their education is eclipsed by the strikes the teachers cause (they are paid far too little; and it's an important job; I knew a public school teacher who had to work as a cab driver and a nurse as well, just to mantain his family) and the amazingly great scholar program which leaves a lot to wish for (history for instance, is one subject which is thought the wrong way); etc.

I would love to be home-schooled, but it's not a common thing here.

School is a thing, which to the surprise of some, I loathe. It will sound arrogant, but the things that I have learnt alone are those that still tick with me (not that I haven't learnt anything at that place; but what I mostly get is nervous problems); I do hesitantly recognize its importance.

Private investigator? That would be awsome. I think you've got the right state of mind to be one of those world-weary detectives you see in the old movies. At least you know enough about history, politics, philosphy etc. to have interesting internal monologues. Good luck with chasing your dream.

Many people think that I take Film Noir far too seriously. But it has more to do with the fact that I can do the same as a 'forensic scientist' but without a boss (and working mostly by myself; paradise indeed).
The way I put it, it seemed as if it would only require 6 months of university. It actually is a six-month course and 5 + years in medicine and laws.

What about you? Do you have any idea of what you will do?

I don't really know what to say to your problem with the Catholic Church. The situation your describe is alien to me and I have no idea what it is like to live in a country where the church has so much power. As you said, the church should have no say in politics. Didn't some very important guy say that? Martin Luther or someone like that?

Uhuh, and the funniest thing is that some sources show that countries which have separated the Church from the State (and have a big percentage of non-believers) are doing better on every sense (except on suicide rates).

Ow, didn't even think of him. I really should visit the Lenin Museum some time to get to know these things.

I'm planning to go to Europe in the near future (in about 1-2 years), and that is one of the places I'm looking forward to visiting.

Charie
12-30-2005, 03:43 AM
This comes as an answer to everyting above exept the last El Virus's post. Shaitan, I'm slow.

VampireNaomi
Not really. I had been suspecting [Snape] for quite a while.
Since I haven't read the book I can't really say anything on the matter, but when I first heard the rumour: 'you-know-who killed you-know-who' - it was somewhat a strong blow. Because I trust Severus Snape. Still, or at least until the seventh book proves me wrong.

El Virus
<about school> Sorry, I have to vent & bitch somewhere.
Accumulating bad emotions without giving a vent to them from time to time isn't healthy, anyway.

I went to the free public school, which was all but falling to pieces, on the outside, mostly because the building served as a hospital during the War and was hardly renewed since then. But that is highly uncommon, plus inside it was completely all right. Besides, our teachers were ones of the best in town - from Russian schools, I mean. Can't imagine how a private school can exist with the conditions you have described, but I guess it's too late for you to change institution; so - my condolences, if you permit me.

At least that's what I want to become now; but my love for History may have some say in what I do sooner or later.
I suppose you'd make a terrific (in the best sense of the word) historian. I've heard that's an amazingly interesting field of work, for a devouted soul; yet I reckon it's extremely hard to become anything big in it.
Mmm. I admit have a soft spot for historians thanks to the History teacher I had at school (I wonder what made him go and teach, though, for his main profession was researcher/archaeologist, something like that). To listen to him talking about - about whatever historian, actually - was a sheer bliss. All sounded more like involving fiction stories, or, better to say, beautiful tales from far past (or not very far); however, hurrying to write down his lections was hell. By the way, he'd always worn painstakingly neat formal, one could even say, old-fashioned clothes, and never gave in on the question of the mark he thought you deserved, the bastard. He was thirty-five, I suppose, when I was in the final form, my close friend had a charming crush on him.

Do you have any idea of what you'd like to follow?
Finding the right career is probably one of the most important and difficult decisions one has to make (or so I have been told).
Yep, that's important, although most people end up doing something completely different from what they had in mind or studied for. I guess that's what's going to happen to me after all, for I've known exactly what I wanted to study since I was a very small kid. One of the faculties in the Academy of Arts. I'd been looking forward to it for as long as I remember myself (that's not much, mind you; my memory's tricky), until something happened, about two years ago, and made practically a ruin of me. And I still don't particularly feel like a phoenix to rise from the ashes.

The problem is that a 16-year old dressed on such 'elaborate' things is usually seen as somebody who wants attention (ironically, I hate being in the spotlight).
So, unusual hats, suits, shoes and, I bet, starched shirts (that's my special fetish). Your style sounds engaging, you know. Aren't there battalions of girls falling at you feet?
Sometimes I know I'd love to look as old-fashioned as I could, but my clothes are not many and there's no particular style in them, so I don't really have much to do about it.
As for spotlights, I don't think that providing eye-candy for the passers-by is the same as being in the spotlight. To end up in the spotlight one have to act in an eye-catching way, not just look funny.
'A memorable picture of an incomparably dressed Mexican (or, what country are you from, actually? I'm as good in Geography as in Philosophy) boy, reciting ancient wisdoms in the moonlight under the tent of palm leaves'. Oil on canvas.
...Absurd art, more like, isn't it?

I could answer with a stereotype about women, you know.
The truth, I am one of those sensible men; which can be a curse sometimes.
What stereotype? That we are supposed to cry on somebody's shoulders? I used to do that quite a lot, some time ago. Nervous breakdown, it's called.
If you mean 'sensible' as 'sensitive' (which you might not, certainly), why's that a 'curse'?

Are either of you the kind who make friends easily?
A tough question. I suppose I am; I would make friends easily if I needed more than one person at a time. Sort of antisocial; one friend means I can give him a proper attention: literally, all the attention I'm willing to spare on relations.

I adore that language, but somehow a game that has so much Spanish content must be strange; they didn’t include words in Spanish, did they?
Is Russian your main language?
Of course they did include Spanish words, they 'translated' it from English, after all.
I love Russian, too, and yes, that's my main language. And the only one, actually, if you won't count that scant amount of English and the even scantier Lithuanian I fumble with. I was born in USSR, and my father's Russian. Lithuania is only a territory where my parents have met, accidentially, and I'm proud to say I have nothing to do with Lithuanians at all. I don't have a native country, like most of my friends.
Do you know Russian language?

I always thought [Harry Potter] to be a commercially overrated thing; guess I'll have to spare my prejudice.
But fantasy...I've never cared about the genre.
That's one of those weird examples of a really worthy and commercially overrated things.
I don't know if I care about fantasy, for I've never read any, save for the 'Lord of the Rings'. I don't consider Harry Potter fantasy at all. Well, there is magic and some mythological creatures, but the world is perfectly real - it's our world, that's the beauty of it. Only with a little admission that wizardry does exist. I wouldn't know in what genre to place HP; the closest would probably be a tale, but it is much too real for that.

Sorry, that should have been 'it'. It's amazing how a simple letter missing and capitalizing the one remaining can change the meaning of a sentence, and make one look like a god.
*blink blink* I didn't notice that.
Yeah, I suppose you can give people hope. That humanity isn't that lost of a case, that is.

I don't get a word of what you're saying... [about HP]
That's because you loose your time reading all that scientific nonsense, amigo. We, the frightful and mighty potter-fans, make science of nonsense, on the other hand.

<...>politics, is something that needs to exist (unless you believe that every sort of governmental institution is wrong; but you would be an Anarchist<...>
Now, the deal with the Catholic Church is that they are trying to influence governments all over the world; and that does matter me. This is especially true in my country, were we have many high-ranked church members criticizing every move towards civil liberties.
What would you call a person who knows that politics needs to exist, but all the same considers it downright wrong? You may call me Charie, or VIP, as in Very Ignorant Politically. Like Count Almaviva said, can't do anything about it, so I just have to stand it.

Like VampireNaomi, I'm very far from the situation you have described. I wonder if the official Church has any control here; I guess if it has any, then definitely not much. Apart from overall free-like European views, here it probably has something to do with the still lingering post-USSR antireligious spirits.
What you have told reminds me of what I've heard about Middle Ages, somehow. Makes me wonder even more as to what country you live in.

"God told me to invade I_ _q" A president once said; this is a sybol to anything I think is wrong.
He did say that? 0.0 Everyone tells me Bush is a real jerk, to put it lightly. My father visited me yesterday and we talked about Iraq, among other things, a bit. Do I understand it right that Americans went to Iraq for oil? If so, did they get it, eventually?

Just out of curiosity and with other purposes; what's your stance on abortion?
Mother's choice, of course. I don't get it how it could be anyone else's buisness. Besides, is my guess right and most of anti-abortion fellows are men?
Also, I don't see it as murder. Murder is a kill of a human, isn't it? And a three-months fetal doesn't sound like a human to me. Not yet. If I remember biology, a human fetal shares quite a few traits with many other spieces' fetal forms.
But I don't understand motherhood (or biology) that well, thus I may sound cynical.

Close. It's Leon Trotsky.
Oh. I should have guessed.
...Well, I rarely do what I should.

Charie
12-30-2005, 04:13 AM
I feel guilty of writing too much.

El Virus, in addition.
It will sound arrogant, but the things that I have learnt alone are those that still tick with me (not that I haven't learnt anything at that place; but what I mostly get is nervous problems); I do hesitantly recognize its importance.
It sounds entirely normal. I've always thought that that's just the thing school is for: to give you tasks and then correct your mistakes. Of course most the studies happen at home, especially when the teacher isn't a gifted one. Our class hardly attended usual classes led by average teachers, save for getting tasks and writing tests. Well, in the upper forms, at least. But we were lucky and got most of the best teachers, whose lessons were really something.

I guess teachers don't get much salary all around the world. Most of mine had some other jobs, as well.

The way I put it, it seemed as if it would only require 6 months of university. It actually is a six-month course and 5 + years in medicine and laws.
We could understand the implication :).

I'm planning to go to Europe in the near future (in about 1-2 years), and that is one of the places I'm looking forward to visiting.
What, Lenin Museum in Finland?
I've heard Finland to be a beautiful country.

VampireNaomi
12-30-2005, 05:20 AM
The good thing about my school is that it's educational level is better than that of a public school, and it gives me the chance to take many international exams.

How long do you have to keep studying there until you can move elsewhere? That reminds me, I have no idea how old you are.

The problem here is that public schools are in even worse conditions, and their education is eclipsed by the strikes the teachers cause (they are paid far too little; and it's an important job; I knew a public school teacher who had to work as a cab driver and a nurse as well, just to mantain his family) and the amazingly great scholar program which leaves a lot to wish for (history for instance, is one subject which is thought the wrong way); etc.

That poor teacher. My Brazilian friend told me that public schools have such problems in that part of the world, but I never suspected it could be that bad for the teachers.

Out of interest, how is history taught wrong?

School is a thing, which to the surprise of some, I loathe. It will sound arrogant, but the things that I have learnt alone are those that still tick with me (not that I haven't learnt anything at that place; but what I mostly get is nervous problems); I do hesitantly recognize its importance.

I don't think it's arrogant. I'm sure that most people would hate school if they had to study in similar conditions to yours. And studying in an institution just isn't meant for all people, regardless of the conditions or their intellectual level. In some way you remind me of Mika Waltari, a Finnish author who loathed the idea of finishing his education because he felt it took time from what he really loved; writing.

But it has more to do with the fact that I can do the same as a 'forensic scientist' but without a boss (and working mostly by myself; paradise indeed).

Are there a lot of private investigators over there? Is it a profitable profession? What kind of jobs do you expect to get? As you can guess, this is a profession I only know from movies and don't know a thing about its realitites.

What about you? Do you have any idea of what you will do?

Heh, I'm going to become a teacher and teach kids how to speak English and German. It's not really what I want to do, but I want to work with languages, it's a relatively respected and well paid profession with weekends, Christmas, summer, Easter etc. always off duty so, it's worth it.

Uhuh, and the funniest thing is that some sources show that countries which have separated the Church from the State (and have a big percentage of non-believers) are doing better on every sense (except on suicide rates).

True. We're somewhere on the top of the suicide list. I think it's because people have forgotten the meaning of really caring about each other. Our society sets firm rules; you have to be young, beautiful and successful if you want to be worth anything. If you fail to accomplish that you've failed in life.

I'm planning to go to Europe in the near future (in about 1-2 years), and that is one of the places I'm looking forward to visiting.

Give a shout if you do. I'll give you a tour in The Spy Museum (http://www.vakoilumuseo.fi/englanti/index.htm)

Charie (stole your colour idea :D)

Since I haven't read the book I can't really say anything on the matter, but when I first heard the rumour: 'you-know-who killed you-know-who' - it was somewhat a strong blow. Because I trust Severus Snape. Still, or at least until the seventh book proves me wrong.

Oh, I trust him too. There is a scene in the book that must be mean that everything is not what it seems.

What, Lenin Museum in Finland?

Yeah, it's in Tampere. Never been there though, sadly.

And you say your first language is Russian? You've got such a beautiful alphabet, you know. I studied one course of it at school, but quit because it was interactive studying and I hate that.

And your English is very good, so you could very well call it your second language.

Charie
12-30-2005, 06:59 AM
VampireNaomi
That reminds me, I have no idea how old you [, El Virus,] are.
He stated his birthday date in his profile.

Out of interest, how is history taught wrong?
I keep answering questions not directed at me.
History is a subject which could be taught the wrongest way possible at school in a country with prejudiced goverment. No need to search far for an example: take USSR's role in the world's events. In Lithuania, it is a very common thing nowadays to vilify everything concerning Soviet Union, and completely bathe it in dirt - - because those sycophants of the governors lick USA's... well, whatever. So, when it was still USSR here, all History textbooks were, understandably, full of praise solely to Soviets, while now everything coming from there is proudly presented as mud. Re-writing History to accomodate current powers in control is too usual a thing, sadly.
Our school's historian never once used an officially recommended textbook.

[private investigator] is a profession I only know from movies and don't know a thing about its realitites.
You still know way more about it than me. I've only read Sherlock Holmes, and so much for the private investigators. :)

There is a scene in the book that must be mean that everything is not what it seems.
The whole series just shout that Severus's Dumbledore's man. I think. Which particular scene do you refer to?

And you say your first language is Russian? You've got such a beautiful alphabet, you know.
And your English is very good, so you could very well call it your second language.
A beautiful alphabet? That's a newsflash. What's so beautiful about it? *perplexed*
As for my English - you don't know a half about it. I need to check almost every word in the dictionary. The sad part of it is that dictionaries won't tell me how to properly use tenses. I wonder if I could speak in English.

What languages do you know? I take it that they are quite a few.

VampireNaomi
12-30-2005, 09:17 AM
He stated his birthday date in his profile.

Oops. That's what you get when you're too lazy to check.

History is a subject which could be taught the wrongest way possible at school in a country with prejudiced goverment. No need to search far for an example: take USSR's role in the world's events. In Lithuania, it is a very common thing nowadays to vilify everything concerning Soviet Union, and completely bathe it in dirt - - because those sycophants of the governors lick USA's... well, whatever. So, when it was still USSR here, all History textbooks were, understandably, full of praise solely to Soviets, while now everything coming from there is proudly presented as mud. Re-writing History to accomodate current powers in control is too usual a thing, sadly.

I suspected something like that, but specific examples are always interesting. And it sort of makes you paranoid because you can't be sure that whatever is taught to you is correct. I remember my previous History teacher who would throw all kinds of anti-Russian garbage at us in class while conviniently forgetting to tell about the bad things we did.

The whole series just shout that Severus's Dumbledore's man. I think. Which particular scene do you refer to?

I'm thinking of the scene in which Dumbledore and Snape argue, and Snape says he doesn't like/want to do something. Even if that scene doesn't mean what I think it does, there must be some explanation for it in the final book.

A beautiful alphabet? That's a newsflash. What's so beautiful about it? *perplexed*

It's so exotic, especially all the different variations of "s". Besides, how can you look at something like this: "домохозяйкой" and say it's not beautiful?

What languages do you know? I take it that they are quite a few.

Apart from Finnish and English, only Swedish and German. I'm not even nearly fluent in either, though.

Charie
12-30-2005, 11:01 AM
VampireNaomi
And it sort of makes you paranoid because you can't be sure that whatever is taught to you is correct.
That's right, history is very dependant on the particular opinions of it's tellers; in order to get some relatively objective view one should read really a lot of material. Concerning the newest history, at least.

Besides, how can you look at something like this: "домохозяйкой" and say it's not beautiful?
:lol: Well, I hope I'll never become just 'домохозяйкой', it doesn't sound very beautiful to me)).
That's a highly strange notion for me to think that Cyrillic writing is 'exotic'. I doesn't look all that different from Roman one.

Apart from Finnish and English, only Swedish and German. I'm not even nearly fluent in either, though.
A nice start to become a polyglot, hmm?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Rowling says we will get most of the answers in book seven, but think of how long we'll have to wait (and cross swords over Snape's morals).

VampireNaomi
12-30-2005, 11:21 AM
Well, I hope I'll never become just ''домохозяйкой, it doesn't sound very beautiful to me)).

Really? What does it mean? I just chose a random word that looked nice.

Rowling says we will get most of the answers in book seven, but think of how long we'll have to wait (and cross swords over Snape's morals).

True, but I think I prefer waiting to the feeling you'll get after you've finished the last book and realise that there won't be more, ever.

El Virus
12-30-2005, 11:26 AM
Can't imagine how a private school can exist with the conditions you have described, but I guess it's too late for you to change institution; so - my condolences, if you permit me.

Me neither, but private schools in here are very common (for the so called "middle classes", I mean); for what I've heard, in other countries they are more expensive. There is always the option of those very-expensive schools, but they are full of snobs and are not worth it.

I suppose you'd make a terrific (in the best sense of the word) historian. I've heard that's an amazingly interesting field of work, for a
devouted soul; yet I reckon it's extremely hard to become anything big in it.

The problem is hat I enjoy the history of practically anything, and that field requires you to specialize in one topic in general. Time will tell what I follow, though.

Mmm. I admit have a soft spot for historians thanks to the History teacher I had at school (I wonder what made him go and teach, though, for his main profession was researcher/archaeologist, something like that).
[…]
He was thirty-five, I suppose, when I was in the final form, my close friend had a charming crush on him.

He sure sounds like a nice person.
I have a literature and plastic arts teacher I really care for.
That kind of thing is very helpful to motivate you, in order to at least study or work a bit harder.


One of the faculties in the Academy of Arts. I'd been looking forward to it for as long as I remember myself (that's not much, mind you; my memory's tricky), until something happened, about two years ago, and made practically a ruin of me. And I still don't particularly feel like a phoenix to rise from the ashes.

Wow. What sort of Arts were you interested in?

So, unusual hats, suits, shoes and, I bet, starched shirts (that's my special fetish). Your style sounds engaging, you know. Aren't there battalions of girls falling at you feet?
Sometimes I know I'd love to look as old-fashioned as I could, but my clothes are not many and there's no particular style in them, so I don't really have much to do about it.

Not that I am aware of. But most of the people I know dress like everyone else and either tend to dislike formal-wear or my serious and shy personality. Anyway, the women I tend to encounter are not 'my type' (or vice versa).

'A memorable picture of an incomparably dressed Mexican (or, what country are you from, actually? I'm as good in Geography as in Philosophy) boy, reciting ancient wisdoms in the moonlight under the tent of palm leaves'. Oil on canvas.
...Absurd art, more like, isn't it?

Mexican?

No I'm from Argentina; one of the countries in the so called "South" America which could have chances to have a great economy, but we have wasted it all thanks to the excellent governments we have had in the past decades.
It's a beautiful place, but the poeple are dislikeable.

If you mean 'sensible' as 'sensitive' (which you might not, certainly), why's that a 'curse'?

Actually, sensitive is the right word. It might be a curse because of the ideal of 'strong and virile man' that the Western society has created.


I love Russian, too, and yes, that's my main language. And the only one, actually, if you won't count that scant amount of English and the even scantier Lithuanian I fumble with. I was born in USSR, and my father's Russian. Lithuania is only a territory where my parents have met, accidentially, and I'm proud to say I have nothing to do with Lithuanians at all. I don't have a native country, like most of my friends.
Do you know Russian language?

Really? Have you lived there all your life?

I'm obsessed with Russia and the Soviet Union, the history, language, music (Bulat Okudzhava is one of my favourite artists); everything is beautiful about it. It's nice to know someone which has to do with it.

As for the language, I once began studying it some time ago, but I had to stop for a while.
I am planning on doing a more intensive course on the language next year, which is far better than studying from text books alone.

That's because you loose your time reading all that scientific nonsense, amigo. We, the frightful and mighty potter-fans, make science of nonsense, on the other hand.

I like Mark Twain a lot, amongst other non-scientific writers, if that helps.

What would you call a person who knows that politics needs to exist, but all the same considers it downright wrong? You may call me Charie, or VIP, as in Very Ignorant Politically. Like Count Almaviva said, can't do anything about it, so I just have to stand it.

That's a normal thing; I used to think the same (it's this game that changed it all for me, believe it or not).
But you are not indifferent to it, politics will always affect everyone, unluckily.

He did say that? 0.0 Everyone tells me Bush is a real jerk, to put it lightly. My father visited me yesterday and we talked about Iraq, among other things, a bit. Do I understand it right that Americans went to Iraq for oil? If so, did they get it, eventually?

Apparently; but if it's true (that he said it, I mean), I'm sure he doesn't believe it, it's just for propaganda.
I'm discussing the issue constantly, with my father and everyone; but talking about it in a forum full of people from the USA is not a good move.

Mother's choice, of course. I don't get it how it could be anyone else's buisness. Besides, is my guess right and most of anti-abortion fellows are men?
Also, I don't see it as murder. Murder is a kill of a human, isn't it? And a three-months fetal doesn't sound like a human to me. Not yet. If I remember biology, a human fetal shares quite a few traits with many other spieces' fetal forms.
But I don't understand motherhood (or biology) that well, thus I may sound cynical.


It's mainly men who are against it. I think they are afraid to give so much power to a woman.
Those who stand against always use the "It's murder" lie, when it scientifically isn't.
I'd respect the opposition more if they actually told the truth. (I'm for it, in case I didn't make that clear).

Out of interest, how is history taught wrong?

Only a part of history is taught. You will probably learn about Greece, Egypt, Rome, the French Revolution, Industrial Rev, Russian Rev., World Wars and the history of your country. All in detail. But they miss many things.

I made a bet with my father that if I asked anybody in the street about the Mauryan Empire, they wouldn't know what I was talking about. Indeed, five people proved I was right.

I think that as much history should be seen as possible, but without much detail. The student can then choose the subject of his interest.

-History is a subject which could be taught the wrongest way possible at school in a country with prejudiced goverment.
[...]
Re-writing History to accomodate current powers in control is too usual a thing, sadly.

-I remember my previous History teacher who would throw all kinds of anti-Russian garbage at us in class while conviniently forgetting to tell about the bad things we did.

That is very true.
My civics teacher was constantly saying anti-Communist (and any sort of Left-wing enterprise, actually) things. Once she started to talk nonsense about Cuba and Russia, so I got fed up and stood up to her; a heated argument unleashed after that.

Some teachers can be very biased, and that becomes a problem for students.

Are there a lot of private investigators over there? Is it a profitable profession? What kind of jobs do you expect to get? As you can guess, this is a profession I only know from movies and don't know a thing about its realitites.

The agency I went to has a lot of students per year.
Lawyers or insurance companies mostly hire them; there are several fields in it but it depends on which aspect of it you choose to follow. I heard it pays well, but that is not something I really care for and the fares are up to the agent.

I like it as an option to have a job while I am at University, even though it requires a lot of hard work. Once I finish Forensics, I can merge both of the professions.

Heh, I'm going to become a teacher and teach kids how to speak English and German. It's not really what I want to do, but I want to work with languages, it's a relatively respected and well paid profession with weekends, Christmas, summer, Easter etc. always off duty so, it's worth it.

I think it suits you. You are a very nice person, and you seem to be very good at languages. I'm sure kids will love you.
Have you began to work/study for it already?

Languages are a beautiful thing; it is such a bad thing that some are being lost with the years.

A beautiful alphabet? That's a newsflash. What's so beautiful about it? *perplexed*

I agree with Naomi, cyrillic is a great alphabet. One of the many reasons why I like this language, actually.


Also, I am going out of town, so I won't be able to be as active. I Promise I'll log in at least once every three days. (I'm not going right away, so I still have some chances to post today).

Charie
12-30-2005, 02:02 PM
El Virus
<...>; for what I've heard, in other countries they are more expensive. There is always the option of those very-expensive schools, but they are full of snobs and are not worth it.
I see. Here, 'a private school' means exactly 'a very expensive and full of snobs' kind of thing, mainly.

He sure sounds like a nice person.
I have a literature and plastic arts teacher I really care for.
He was, indeed. And really handsome. And married. Allah sees I'd recieved too many laments on that little fact from my friend.
What's 'plastic arts'? Dances? We didn't have that at all.

What sort of Arts were you interested in?
'Were'. What a correct and eternally painful way to put it.
Graphics. Always Graphics - or is it called 'drawing' in English? They say, 'Drawing's father, painting's mother'. I've always preferred father.

Anyway, the women I tend to encounter are not 'my type' (or vice versa).
Really? And do you know what is 'your type'? Oh, drop it. I realize our chance for a mind-blowing romance is throttled by too many drastic and insurmountable obstacles. Guess I need to search for a Price somewhere else. And not THAT clever, by the way.

It's a beautiful place, but the people are dislikeable.
Argentina... Yes, that sounds distant and romantic. Music, dances, gaucho sauce, far away, vast lands. Why do you call people dislikeable? The worst national character I've met so far were Lithuanians. :rolleyes:

It might be a curse because of the ideal of 'strong and virile man' that the Western society has created.
Feel pressed to stand up to the stereotype? People should probably remind themselves, from time to time, that men are also humans.

Really? Have you lived there all your life?
I'm obsessed with Russia and the Soviet Union, the history, language, music (Bulat Okudzhava is one of my favourite artists); everything is beautiful about it. It's nice to know someone which has to do with it.
I was born in Vilnius, and yes, I've lived here all my life. Sometimes I go to Israel, and once was in Saint-Petersburg, briefly. Real Russians are fascinating; though I don't think I could live among them. They are so - so different. They talk differently and think even more so. I'm dreaming of visiting Moskow some time.
Bulat Okudzhava. Uhuh. And why am I not surprised that you know more about Russian culture than I do? I just love Bards, I don't distinguish who's who there. I love to listen to "Песни Нашего Века" albums, and that's all.

I like Mark Twain a lot, amongst other non-scientific writers, if that helps.
Hey, I didn't imply anything by that comment of mine. I like Mark Twain too, by the way, not that I've read him a lot. Mostly re-read the same titles.

But you are not indifferent to it, politics will always affect everyone, unluckily.
Well, materially, it does, but so far I haven't noticed. ...Or it's just that I don't think of myself as Lithuanian, so it sort of doesn't matter to me what actually happens here. I've just thought that if I lived in my beloved Israel I'd definitely take much interest in ongoing events.

I'm discussing the issue constantly, with my father and everyone; but talking about it in a forum full of people from the USA is not a good move.
That may be. Though I'm anyway not somebody to discuss it with, the best I can do is listen.

It's mainly men who are against it. I think they are afraid to give so much power to a woman.
And what sort of power would that be, pray tell? Now I'm really confused as to why abortion is a problem at all. There are far too many people on this planet in any case.
Those men who are against, they should first try to bear and raise a child themselves, if they're so smart.

I made a bet with my father that if I asked anybody in the street about the Mauryan Empire, they wouldn't know what I was talking about. Indeed, five people proved I was right.
I think that as much history should be seen as possible, but without much detail. The student can then choose the subject of his interest.
Charming; another example of the thing you know and I haven't even heared about, at least it has never caught my eye even if I've seen some reference. Not that it's not my fault, of course. I wonder if our school historian mentioned it - I've actually listened to him only for a couple of years from those five he taught our class. And don't remember even that.
Perhaps your idea of presenting history to students is passable - for those interested. I guess that's basicly the way they teach it at Universities. Bored with studies ignorant fools, like me, wouldn't read anything additional at all, I suppose. They are too busy rereading 'Les Trois Mousquetaires' for the hundredth time.

My civics teacher was constantly saying anti-Communist (and any sort of Left-wing enterprise, actually) things. Once she started to talk nonsense about Cuba and Russia, so I got fed up and stood up to her; a heated argument unleashed after that.
A pity I could see (and wouldn't have understood) that. Heated student/teacher arguments, where the student is right, especially, are amazing to observe. What did you win eventually?

Also, I am going out of town, so I won't be able to be as active.
I'm actaully astonished at your and VampireNaomi's current forum activity. Where the hell do you get the time? I'm completely free at the moment, but I'm sure I won't have this much spare time later, I don't know even where I'm going to live during upcoming months - so I definitely won't be present frequenty either.


________________________________________
I'm sorry for everything stupid and offensive I've said above. I can't play a clever girl constantly.

El Virus
12-30-2005, 11:27 PM
I didn't get to reply to everything earlier, so I'll do it now. A bit concisely, though.

He was, indeed. And really handsome. And married. Allah sees I'd recieved too many laments on that little fact from my friend.
What's 'plastic arts'? Dances? We didn't have that at all.

Plastic Arts refer to the subject in which we learn to draw, paint, sculpt, and all of those visual things.

'Were'. What a correct and eternally painful way to put it.
Graphics. Always Graphics - or is it called 'drawing' in English? They say, 'Drawing's father, painting's mother'. I've always preferred father.

If you don't mind, how come you had to leave it?

Really? And do you know what is 'your type'? Oh, drop it. I realize our chance for a mind-blowing romance is throttled by too many drastic and insurmountable obstacles. Guess I need to search for a Price somewhere else. And not THAT clever, by the way.

:( What sort of drastic and insurmountable obstacles throttle our chance for a mind-blowing romance?

It's not as easy to figure out what is your type, as it is to figure what isn't. I guess one finds that out on the appropiate moment.

Argentina... Yes, that sounds distant and romantic. Music, dances, gaucho sauce, far away, vast lands. Why do you call people dislikeable? The worst national character I've met so far were Lithuanians.

If there is one thing I like from here, it has to be Tango. It's just one of the greatest dances and music out there.

Most people in here think to much of themselves; they consider themselves better than the rest of South America; instead of trying to work together for the sake of progress, we just criticize.

What's wrong with Lithuanians?

Feel pressed to stand up to the stereotype? People should probably remind themselves, from time to time, that men are also humans.

Not at all; but those which form part of the stereotype seem to be bothered by it.

Bulat Okudzhava. Uhuh. And why am I not surprised that you know more about Russian culture than I do? I just love Bards, I don't distinguish who's who there. I love to listen to "Песни Нашего Века" albums, and that's all.

Bards are incredible, but no song can compare to the excellence of Ваше Благородие or the beauty of Песенка об Арбате. I like these two so much that I even learnt them on guitar, they are not exactly easy to tab; but they are outstanding.

Hey, I didn't imply anything by that comment of mine. I like Mark Twain too, by the way, not that I've read him a lot. Mostly re-read the same titles.

I've read his short stories several times; I certainly like the evolution he went through along his writing years.
Which titles do you keep re-reading?

I've just thought that if I lived in my beloved Israel I'd definitely take much interest in ongoing events.

Do you prefer Israel to Lithuania or any other place?

And what sort of power would that be, pray tell? Now I'm really confused as to why abortion is a problem at all. There are far too many people on this planet in any case.
Those men who are against, they should first try to bear and raise a child themselves, if they're so smart.

The power of choosing whether a baby comes to this world or not. A lot of men like the idea of a woman being submitted, and due to the current almost equality between both, they now feel threatened. The only thing they have left is that a woman must carry a creature for nine months, and then take care of it; while they have to do nothing. If they loose this privilege, it's all over for their Chauvinistic beliefs.

Charming; another example of the thing you know and I haven't even heared about, at least it has never caught my eye even if I've seen some reference.
[...]
They are too busy rereading 'Les Trois Mousquetaires' for the hundredth time

It's not something entirely important to humanity either; I just picked it that once because of it's 'low profile'.

Did you have a crush on your history teacher too? :p.

[on debating with my teacher] What did you win eventually?

Being catalogued as a Communist (which doesn't bother me; but I'm not one) and having to work double to get the mark I really deserve with that teacher.

Well, yay for speaking my mind in class, I guess.

I'm actaully astonished at your and VampireNaomi's current forum activity. Where the hell do you get the time? I'm completely free at the moment, but I'm sure I won't have this much spare time later, I don't know even where I'm going to live during upcoming months - so I definitely won't be present frequenty either.

I'm on vacation, so I have no problem activity-wise (now, I will have). But during the school year, I don't have much time left.
Now VampireNaomi is the most loyal Grim Fandango fan I know of.

I'm sorry for everything stupid and offensive I've said above. I can't play a clever girl constantly.

It didn't sound offensive; all of what you say sounds rational enough for me. I'm starting to believe that you don't think much of yourself, either.

How long do you have to keep studying there until you can move elsewhere?

Only a couple of years to go, only a couple of years!

That poor teacher. My Brazilian friend told me that public schools have such problems in that part of the world, but I never suspected it could be that bad for the teachers.

It is, I think teachers are underpaid mostly everywhere.
And on a world where unfortunately the importance of your job is valued by the money you make (not that it is fair; businessmen are filthily rich and their work is worthless) that is not a good way to thank them for their hard work.

True. We're somewhere on the top of the suicide list. I think it's because people have forgotten the meaning of really caring about each other. Our society sets firm rules; you have to be young, beautiful and successful if you want to be worth anything. If you fail to accomplish that you've failed in life.

The firm rules of society are something I'll never like. They are the catalysts of many things, like suicides, anorexia, etc.

What a screwed up place we live in.

Give a shout if you do. I'll give you a tour in The Spy Museum

Swell.

I'll sure do; that place looks neat.

About the Lenin museum, I was talking about the one on the Red Square; but anything will do :p.

Charie
12-31-2005, 03:12 AM
El Virus
To answer 'a bit concisely' is not a bad thing among all these conversational giants. However, conciseness is not my talent's sister.

If you don't mind, how come you had to leave it?
I don't mind (though I wonder whether that's a good sign or bad). You see, I have left not only that, I've left all my life overboard at some point: school (I have a school-leaving certificate, but virtually I didn't attent it in my supposed last year, and didn't take exams - I was officially exused from them), preparatory arts school, friends, relations and everything else. I don't think I wasn't helped profoundly to abandon it all, but I certainly should have done something, should have resisted... Right. I know I couldn't have done anything differently.
It's just sort of hard to switch from the perfectly organized, happy ordinary life to a complete wreck of it.

What sort of drastic and insurmountable obstacles throttle our chance for a mind-blowing romance?
It's not as easy to figure out what is your type, as it is to figure what isn't.
Yes, that's true. So far I've only met 'not my types' either. Well, I'm an 'unseasoned pear', as mother calls it, I don't have the slightest idea what should be.
Obstacles? For one, I'm not actually a 'mind-blowing romance' sort of person. At least I don't think I am. And you wouldn't like me: I'm plump, with green complexion and an awful Don-Copal temperment (*scared to read this myself*), and I sing all the time despite the fact that I've no voice. Oh, and there's the ocean.
Heartbreaking, isn't it?

If there is one thing I like from here, it has to be Tango. It's just one of the greatest dances and music out there.<...>
What's wrong with Lithuanians?
Tango is loved all around the world. I think dances overall are great, when I see people dancing beautifully, flawlessly, well - just dancing, I feel sad about my total lack of aptitude for it. Can you dance? Tango? I guess you can.

Lithuanian national character is nothing admirable. Petty, greedy and grave, with little interest in anything but practical mundane routines, and not welcoming in the scantiest. Narrow-minded. Of course, there are kind, nice, friendly and open-hearted Lithuanians, but those are more an exception to the common rule; I somehow don't consider them Lithuanians at all.

Bards are incredible, but no song can compare to the excellence of Ваше Благородие or the beauty of Песенка об Арбате.
*didn't find "Песенку об Арбате" on the hard-drive, hurriedly searched the Internet for it* I wonder what's so astounding about these two songs for you. My friends and me were constantly singing "Ваше Благородие" when kids, among other popular songs from movies. I can't think of this song without remembering Sukhov and Sayid and others.
'Arbat' - yes, it's amazing. Can't help but think of my fathers complaints that, 'nooo, Arbat's different now, it's irretrievably lost in the past'. Sometimes I so much long to visit the country I was born in, to find out myself what were the people's relationships like in Soviet Union. If they were anything like in the movies, then... Not that I have the chance, anyway. It's all so strange.

Which titles do you keep re-reading?
I do not keep re-reading, I re-read from time to time, mostly because I never memorize a thing from what I read. So, I have re-read three-four times the same books I've read as a kid: Yankee in King Arthur's Court, The Prince and the Pauper, Tom Sowyer and Huckleberry Finn (Huckleberry Finn mostly, actually). I've read some short stories, but - as usually - I don't recall anything.
To re-read three-four times is normal for me concerning almost every book, you know. Doesn't apply to my favourites, though - due to the superstition (about not getting all the meaning if lightly approached, and all that).

Do you prefer Israel to Lithuania or any other place?
I've never been to any other places, remember?
In Israel I instantly feel at home. You just wander around and sense that those people are your people, and a sweet and a bit rotten air, and sand and night. Mother says it's because of all the friends and relatives we have there; I disagree. Those are her friends and relatives, mostly, though I most certainly have some best people there as well. It's the country, it's spirit, and funny natives: lazy foxes and concerned vacants.
Lithuania has beautiful nature, though. There's no place better than Neringa. If I lived in Neringa, I most definitely wouldn't want to move elsewhere. But I don't think I'll ever live there; besides, Neringa's beauty is in the excess of wild nature and the lack of highly unnecessary people. I want it never populated more than it's now.

Did you have a crush on your history teacher too?
No! Ai-yai, how could you even think that of me. I haven't had a crush on anyone, well, maybe save for unserious over-admiration for a couple of girls.
That historian, Andrei Evgenievich, had already been teaching our class for two years (and I didn't pay any attention to un-favourite subject and it's teacher), when that friend of mine sat with me on that lesson. And since then, she had started filling me in on every little detail concerning our historian: age, address, family, costumes, facial features and so on and so on. You can imagine my suffering. But there was also an unexpected positive effect of my friend's fantasies me: I had actually started to pay attention, to see myself what's so adorable about historian. And the amazing revelation I'd made was an incomprehensible epiphany that 'history can be interesting!' When lectured like Adrei Evgenievich did, at least. So, after that I'd eagerly studied history until 'the disaster struck'.
By the way, that friend of mine didn't value his teaching methods at all. Stupid. All she cared about was a pretty face (not that it wasn't). We had many rows over that.

Now VampireNaomi is the most loyal Grim Fandango fan I know of.
Seems so. Ramarkable.

It didn't sound offensive; all of what you say sounds rational enough for me. I'm starting to believe that you don't think much of yourself, either.
I have my reasons. Well, everything about me is either too much or too little. It's terrible.
As for yesterday - I guess I was excessively doubtful due to tiredness and worries about today. I still don't know how will I spend the New Year celebration. Most probably there won't be any celebration for me at all, but it still may be lunch with my father, or - - I'd prefer to know in advance.

What a screwed up place we live in.
Ditto, mon cher ami.
Let's pick and relish those scant diamonds in the dust our sorrowful ways cautiously present to us even on the darkest days of our lifes. Mes enfants. :rolleyes:

VampireNaomi
12-31-2005, 05:07 AM
El Virus, before I forget I must ask what kind of relationship Argentinians have with Brazilians. My friend told me that the two nations are pretty much at war over football.

Now VampireNaomi is the most loyal Grim Fandango fan I know of.

No, I'm not. There are a lot more dedicated people around here. Having Christmas holidays and no social life whatsoever gives me the chance to hang around here.

About the Lenin museum, I was talking about the one on the Red Square; but anything will do

Well, it's not much of a distance. Remember to visit St. Petersburg (you must see The Winter Palace).

I don't want to sound like I'm sticking my nose to other people's business, but the obstacles you mentioned, Charie, can be overcome. I mean, my mum is pretty much like you described yourself and yet dad married him. Besides, Virus doesn't sound like a particularly petty person.

</matchmaker>

Charie
12-31-2005, 08:03 AM
VampireNaomi
the obstacles you mentioned, Charie, can be overcome.
Well, thank you for believing in our chance. Besides, today I've actually left house, made a bit new haircut (I don't have anybody to show it but the mirror, though), and with a touch of cosmetics - I thought I'm beautiful. As in, not that frightening at all.
But you mustn't forget the most horrible impediment, which I, by some accident, have failed to mention above: the unforgivable age difference. Let's face the fact: I'm too old for the boy.

...Hey, boy? Don't take offence.

VampireNaomi
12-31-2005, 08:10 AM
Wow, there must be be something horribly wrong with me today. When I look at the profiles of the two of you I see that the age difference is about a year. That's hardly a problem. What am I not getting?

El Virus
12-31-2005, 08:33 AM
I don't mind (though I wonder whether that's a good sign or bad). You see, I have left not only that, I've left all my life overboard at some point: school (I have a school-leaving certificate, but virtually I didn't attent it in my supposed last year, and didn't take exams - I was officially exused from them), preparatory arts school, friends, relations and everything else. I don't think I wasn't helped profoundly to abandon it all, but I certainly should have done something, should have resisted... Right. I know I couldn't have done anything differently.
It's just sort of hard to switch from the perfectly organized, happy ordinary life to a complete wreck of it.

Was there a reason for you to do it?

I think about leaving everything every once in a while; unfortunately, I then need to come back to my monotonous reality.

Yes, that's true. So far I've only met 'not my types' either. Well, I'm an 'unseasoned pear', as mother calls it, I don't have the slightest idea what should be.
Obstacles? For one, I'm not actually a 'mind-blowing romance' sort of person. At least I don't think I am. And you wouldn't like me: I'm plump, with green complexion and an awful Don-Copal temperment (*scared to read this myself*), and I sing all the time despite the fact that I've no voice. Oh, and there's the ocean.
Heartbreaking, isn't it?

Nah.

I'm thin, with white complexion(?), moody & insecure. I spend time playing the guitar and harmonica, despite not being so good at it :P.

What about the ocean?

Tango is loved all around the world. I think dances overall are great, when I see people dancing beautifully, flawlessly, well - just dancing, I feel sad about my total lack of aptitude for it. Can you dance? Tango? I guess you can.

No I can't dance. I've been repeatedly asked if I can (must be the shoes), though.


Lithuanian national character is nothing admirable. Petty, greedy and grave, with little interest in anything but practical mundane routines, and not welcoming in the scantiest. Narrow-minded. Of course, there are kind, nice, friendly and open-hearted Lithuanians, but those are more an exception to the common rule; I somehow don't consider them Lithuanians at all.

With that you've described about 82% of the world.

I wonder what's so astounding about these two songs for you. My friends and me were constantly singing "Ваше Благородие" when kids, among other popular songs from movies. I can't think of this song without remembering Sukhov and Sayid and others.

The nice lyrics, the great music and the fact that "Vashe..." comes from "White Sun of the Desert" a great Soviet movie. The other one...no idea, it sounds really nice to me.


No! Ai-yai, how could you even think that of me. I haven't had a crush on anyone, well, maybe save for unserious over-admiration for a couple of girls.

Well, the way in which you talk about him helps, in a way.

I have my reasons. Well, everything about me is either too much or too little. It's terrible.
As for yesterday - I guess I was excessively doubtful due to tiredness and worries about today. I still don't know how will I spend the New Year celebration. Most probably there won't be any celebration for me at all, but it still may be lunch with my father, or - - I'd prefer to know in advance.


Oh yeah, it's New Year today/tomorrow.
I guess I'll spend the day inside a car only to arrive at night into a small town.

Ditto, mon cher ami.
Let's pick and relish those scant diamonds in the dust our sorrowful ways cautiously present to us even on the darkest days of our lifes. Mes enfants.

Well said. o_O.

El Virus, before I forget I must ask what kind of relationship Argentinians have with Brazilians. My friend told me that the two nations are pretty much at war over football.

Football, don't talk to me about it. I'm fed up with it; everyone in this country seems to be obsessed with team sports, especially that one. All you hear, is football; no current events, no art.

But over all, the relationship is messed up; there is too much rivalry between South Americans.
I don't consider myself a typical one, so I have no prejudice against them.

But things are worse with Chile.

No, I'm not. There are a lot more dedicated people around here. Having Christmas holidays and no social life whatsoever gives me the chance to hang around here.

Name three, and I'll believe you.

Well, it's not much of a distance. Remember to visit St. Petersburg (you must see The Winter Palace).

Indeed, I will.
I still don't know when and how (but most probably next December and by train).
I'll mail you, if I ever need you or your help.

Let's face the facts: I'm too old for the boy.

...Hey, boy? Don't take offence.

Who gives a damn about age?

Argh, I'm not going to keep pushing this.

VampireNaomi
12-31-2005, 09:15 AM
Name three, and I'll believe you.

James, who runs the DOD and finds the inspiration to update it regularly, Rei Nokato who not only writes good fanfiction but also runs the GF fan art club and we can't forget Thrik and his site.

I'll mail you, if I ever need you or your help.

Don't bother, I doubt I know anything you don't already know. :)

Charie
01-01-2006, 02:17 PM
I've started writing this answer yesterday, but then the New Year had occured, with my father dropping in and staying till the morning (we were representing some sort of the 'two lost souls in an alliance', I suppose; both having nowhere to go and nobody else to spend the celebration night with), and after that I had a huge cleaning-of-the-flat marathon, and a nice looong bath, and a re-whatching of Vabank, and completely scrambled from the lack of sleep brains. So, I'm going to copy-paste most of the following from a saved file with a message I didn't get the chance to submit earlier.
Bear in mind, though, that my curret strenuous task is not to fall asleep on the keyboard practically at any minute.

VampireNaomi
When I look at the profiles of the two of you I see that the age difference is about a year. That's hardly a problem. What am I not getting?
That it's almost two yers, actually. Just imagine: when he was a naive innocent newborn, I was already a self-righteous cantankerous little bastard, refusing to share anything with anybody and knowingly manipulating unsuspecting parents.

<about El Virus>I doubt I know anything you don't already know.
That's the trouble with him, isn't it?

El Virus
Was there a reason for you to do it?
I think about leaving everything every once in a while; unfortunately, I then need to come back to my monotonous reality.
I didn't say I wanted it, or had much choice. It was not about 'leaving everything' but breaking down myself and abandoning the world of the living as a result. Out of shame, weariness, corrupted state of mind. Very corrupted. I hadn't been able to think straight for more than a year. Actually, it was only during that period of time when I'd pondered every once in a while as to what it might be like to 'fly away' - because I had nothing but wreckage and garbage to leave behind, then.
So, as I've said above, it was a breakdown: of my will, perception, sensibility, me. I've lived as a plant (*and it was as terrible as it sounds*). Not that I really live a normal human life at the present time, but at least it's not as insentient as before.

I'm thin, with white complexion(?), moody & insecure. I spend time playing the guitar and harmonica, despite not being so good at it :P.
What about the ocean?
<...>
Argh, I'm not going to keep pushing this.
The thing about the ocean is that it is big.
Or else we could look mutually complementary individuals. *right now, though, I can't help but wonder how a person may desire anything other than a good slumber; that's unfathomable*
And I didn't know you were pushing; that's alluring. It's such a distress that I live in this village of a country, when there's a hot Argentinian senorito with a most appealing proposal and serious intentions out there. That's what I detest about the Internet, you know: once you find a true love of your life, you also oftenly find out, as a special bonus, that he or she lives on the opposite side of the Earth.

No I can't dance. I've been repeatedly asked if I can (must be the shoes), though.
Must be origin. Argentinians must dance; what sort of Argentinians are they, otherwise?
By the way, is your origin solely... Argentinian or whatever? I mean, by blood. I mused whether you have some other relation to Russian culture except the pure interest, for example. However, I guess it's safe to assume you take great interest in a vast selection of subjects.

With that you've described about 82% of the world.
I see you don't have much faith in humanity.
I was talking about a national character. Russians are very open, for example; even when somebody does bad things, you feel it comes straight from his heart. Isrealians are careless-carefree, and cantankerous. Lithuanians are unwelcoming and reserved. I haven't socialised with other countries' denizens.
These were inane opinions of mine, you realize.

The nice lyrics, the great music, <...>
From "Песни Нашего Века" four albums I possess (the first one of which includes "Ваше Благородие", by the way) I happen to favour the 'In the memory of Francois Rabelais' song quite a lot, for some reason.
But I'm not really much into music, on the whole. From Russian tunes I usually listen to a couple of brilliant children's radio-plays I have in mp3, or sing children songs myself. "Прекрасное далёко" and "Крылатые качели" are on the top of my singing list (if you'd be brave enough to call my shrieks 'singing', surely). I suppose you know those.

Well, the way in which you talk about [your historian] helps, in a way.
*suspicious* Helps with what, exactly? I talk about him in a way he deserves, in my view. There're quite a lot of people I know and admire that I could talk volumes about.

-----------------------------------------------
A listless mention: you know, I've asked a couple of people yesterday that question of yours about Mauryan Empire. One asked me back whether that has something to do with New Zealand (those where some 'Maori', I reckon), and the other retorted as to why would anybody care.

El Virus
01-01-2006, 07:20 PM
There will be spelling mistakes. But thank the keyboard, time, lack of a word processor and my tiresome.

James, who runs the DOD and finds the inspiration to update it regularly, Rei Nokato who not only writes good fanfiction but also runs the GF fan art club and we can't forget Thrik and his site.

:rolleyes: Ohay, but you are still a more loyal fan than me.

Talking about Rei Nokato, will he ever come back to the forums?

Bear in mind, though, that my curret strenuous task is not to fall asleep on the keyboard practically at any minute.

That pretty much describes my current state aof mind. I'm on a humid cyber cafe (you know, where you rent a computer for an ever-increasing fare); full of people I couldn't care less to know, fighting with the keybord which is practically broken (and keeps including the letter 'a', without a clear reason [If you spot an unwanted letter, it's because of that]).

Sounds like you had fun yesterday. All I did was walk around the woods at midnight while the fireworks were going in the background (I'm not at BA, and I won't be there for a while; by the way).

That it's almost two yers, actually. Just imagine: when he was a naive innocent newborn, I was already a self-righteous cantankerous little bastard, refusing to share anything with anybody and knowingly manipulating unsuspecting parents.

All kids and babies are self-righteous bastards.
But age is a relative thing, one could argue that it's only purpose is making people wonder about their deaths.

-I doubt I know anything you don't already know.

-That's the trouble with him, isn't it?

By saying such things you inflate(?) my ego, so I begin to think I can take over the world, next reality strikes me and makes me realise I'm an idiot.

So, as I've said above, it was a breakdown: of my will, perception, sensibility, me. I've lived as a plant (*and it was as terrible as it sounds*). Not that I really live a normal human life at the present time, but at least it's not as insentient as before.

As long as you don't regret it, I guess that it's a right move.

Having a normal life is not as good as it sounds. What I would give to know how living amongst a strange family is...

For once I would love to act according to my emotions instead of my logic. Just improvise and make something impulsively; you know.

The thing about the ocean is that it is big.

Oh yeah, THAT Ocean.

Not that big a problem with this globalised world of ours.

*right now, though, I can't help but wonder how a person may desire anything other than a good slumber; that's unfathomable*

For some reason, I hate to sleep (but give in as soon as I'm exhausted); I consider it to be a waste of time. There's that little biological fact that makes it impossible not to, though.

And I didn't know you were pushing; that's alluring. It's such a distress that I live in this village of a country, when there's a hot Argentinian senorito with a most appealing proposal and serious intentions out there. That's what I detest about the Internet, you know: once you find a true love of your life, you also oftenly find out, as a special bonus, that he or she lives on the opposite side of the Earth.

[I should include a compliment and complain about my city too, but I'm uninspired to write something nice]

Ironically, the internet allows you to meet that kind of people.

But, yeah, it does become a problem.

Must be origin. Argentinians must dance; what sort of Argentinians are they, otherwise?

If I had the time to juggle school, Russian, guitar, reading and other activities, I'd definitely learn how to dance it.

Unlickly, the current stereotype is "Argentine people must play football the right way" (which I don't anyway).

By the way, is your origin solely... Argentinian or whatever? I mean, by blood. I mused whether you have some other relation to Russian culture except the pure interest, for example. However, I guess it's safe to assume you take great interest in a vast selection of subjects.

Half Italian, a quarter German and the rest a mixture of nationalities I haven't digged up yet.

Unfortunately I've got no Russian blood. But my aunt's husband (my uncle, technically), both of whom I like a lot, comes from that country.

But my interest comes from the propaganda my father would give me as a child, and my grandfather was very fond of the Soviet Union, despite it's reputation, so does my aunt; as you might see, it runs in the family.

You got it right there, I am curious about a vast amount of things; damn I've
even heard the history of the burial methods and toilets but that has more to do with my free time.

I see you don't have much faith in humanity.

It's more of a crusade against comformism.

I was talking about a national character. Russians are very open, for example; even when somebody does bad things, you feel it comes straight from his heart. Isrealians are careless-carefree, and cantankerous. Lithuanians are unwelcoming and reserved. I haven't socialised with other countries' denizens.

People in here are open and close, too close. Due to my tendency of not looking at people in the eyes, and un-desire to kiss everyone on the cheek, I am usually frowned at.

I suppose you know those.

Actually I don't. Due to the lack of imports getting music made in the Soviet Union is practically impossible. Getting things by Okudzhava was a sacrifice.

*suspicious* Helps with what, exactly? I talk about him in a way he deserves, in my view. There're quite a lot of people I know and admire that I could talk volumes about.

I know, I was just giving a reason to my comment.

A listless mention: you know, I've asked a couple of people yesterday that question of yours about Mauryan Empire. One asked me back whether that has something to do with New Zealand (those where some 'Maori', I reckon), and the other retorted as to why would anybody care.

The latter is the most common answer. That absent-minded and unprofound Nihilism is killing society.

If you must know, it was the first major empire of India (From around 200 BCE (before Common Era; not sure about it's abbreviation), and an important thing in that culture.

VampireNaomi
01-02-2006, 02:24 AM
Talking about Rei Nokato, will he ever come back to the forums?

She. ;) And I don't know. I think she visits from time to time, but has no intent of being regular.

Charie
01-02-2006, 05:52 AM
El Virus
Sounds like you had fun yesterday. All I did was walk around the woods at midnight while the fireworks were going in the background
If only I've had fun; your New Year sounds much more enticing to me. I would have been much happier if I didn't celebrate it at all. Besides, I hate going out of my time-table, even rarely.
I consider sleep a waste of time as well, and would be glad to get rid of this - unfortunately - necessary nuisance for good, but I need to sleep around 7.45 hours a day to function appropriately. The longest I've ever been awake were four days, after which not even walking could save me anymore: I would just faint asleep on the move.

By saying such things you inflate(?) my ego
Oh, no; we're just being modest and self-criticizing. *shuffle*

As long as you don't regret it, I guess that it's a right move.
Having a normal life is not as good as it sounds. What I would give to know how living amongst a strange family is...
I beg your pardon, don't regret what? In the whole situation there was nothing even remotely reminiscent of conscious 'moves', it was more like being taken away by a too fast, wide and deep river, lost every hope for a salvation and thus stopped struggling. I can't feel regret for what I regard as inevitable accidents, though I can abominate them, and so I do.
Normal life is a beautiful and craved for thing, when you have less than that. However, at the present moment I can't see any normality for myself; everything had been a bit too crooked around me in the past - in my view.

I would have liked to grow up and live in a perfectly normal, healthy real family. Not that my actual one is something outstanding, of course: they were two sincerely despising each other people with the notehead in passports, who had finally split up officially a a year and a half ago. Happens all the time. They had already been only tolerating one another by the time I was born; notwithstanding, they both wanted me, just separately.

For once I would love to act according to my emotions instead of my logic. Just improvise and make something impulsively; you know.
Do you mean you never actually act according to emotions? That would be impossible for me. I don't think I'm downright thick-headed, but mostly I do whatever I feel like doing at the very moment - spontaneously. Strange how sometimes I finally understand all the logical reasons underlying my actions only years after the actual event, and find that I would have chosen the same option if I were thinking at the time.
And, sometimes, I also like to act recklessly, deliberately abandoning conscious mind, because it is... interesting. As inebriated Ippolit in the "Ирония судьбы, или С лёгким паром!" movie had complained, 'We live boringly! We lack adventurism! We've forgotten how to climb in through our beloved women's windows. We've forgotten how to do big, nice fooleries!' Entirely true; there should be more captain Greys under the scarlet sails around us.
Don't you ever do such things? I would think you do.

[I should include a compliment and complain about my city too, but I'm uninspired to write something nice]
Ironically, the internet allows you to meet that kind of people. But, yeah, [living very far away from one another] does become a problem.

Rare cases of happy real-life marriages of the Internet couples keep gnawing at the back of my mind.

Unlickly, the current stereotype is "Argentine people must play football the right way" (which I don't anyway).
Really? I don't know a thing about football, and have no desire whatsoever to fill this gap of knowledge. I'm strictly convinced that Quidditch's the best sport ever. It's very weird to find myself lost in the midst of vortexes of heated football discussions, names and titles flying over my head, sometimes. What could be so exciting about football?..

Half Italian, a quarter German and the rest a mixture of nationalities I haven't digged up yet. Unfortunately I've got no Russian blood. But my aunt's husband (my uncle, technically), both of whom I like a lot, comes from that country.
Oh. What wind did bring you all together in Argentina?.. Unpredictable vicissitudes of fate, hm?
I'd got some 'propaganda' from my father as well, he's a very pro-Soviets person. Opinions on the country are oftenly so extreme. There's idealizing, berating, blame on some things or the other, praise or loathing. Easy to get lost, especially when the only actual thing you yourself remember about the USSR is the money substitution: rubles and kopecks giving way to lits and cents. I was three, I suppose, and needed money for bubble-gum.

I'm half Russian, a quarter Jewish and a quartrer Tatar, by the way.

I've even heard the history of the burial methods and toilets but that has more to do with my free time.
History of toilets definitely sounds enticing. Shame I prefer to fill my free time with Harry Potter and other endlessly un-educative matters, denying myself a chance to learn about such topical subjects. Seriously.

Due to my tendency of not looking at people in the eyes, and un-desire to kiss everyone on the cheek, I am usually frowned at.
:lol: Why, do they really do that all the time? Now that's something unheard of. To look somebody in the eyes is considered rude, or a sign of intimate trust, here. Or maybe extravagance. As for kissing non-relatives on cheek, I was kissed only once, by way of a thank-you, and still melt at the memory.
So, what you are saying is that antisocial elements like me would have been 'frowned at', too. Is that the feature of Argentina or the other SA countries as well?

Actually I don't. Due to the lack of imports getting music made in the Soviet Union is practically impossible. Getting things by Okudzhava was a sacrifice.
And what did you sacrifice?
Then again, getting something special is always troublesome, one would think. Everything else, however, exists somewhere in the Internet. That's how we get most of the music nowadays, after all.
Those two songs I've mentioned, they are by far the most famous, both from children movies. Maybe you just don't remember the titles. Weird. I couldn't find those on my computer either. Well, I've still got the disk. Also: how about Seweryn Krajewski? Or... All right, I'm curious as to what else do you listen to, from Soviet Russian music. Inanely.

The latter is the most common answer. That absent-minded and unprofound Nihilism is killing society.
Don't call ignorance Nihilism. Most people have many other things to worry about, things at hand. Besides, [I]'What the deuce is it to me? You say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work,' - had said once by no means the dimmest mind in the world, remember?
*muses* I probably am a bit of a Nihilist too, for I consider myself Subjectivist.

Yep, I've looked up that Mauryans were in India. The only thing I've heard about India before was that it's every province had it's ruler, making India a patched-up country, plus jungles and an exceptionally serious approach to religion. Vague at best, I know.

El Virus
01-02-2006, 02:37 PM
She.

Oh, I tend to mess those things up.

It's just that it is not a common name (Oh right, Rei Ayanami :p it all becomes clearer now).

If only I've had fun; your New Year sounds much more enticing to me. I would have been much happier if I didn't celebrate it at all. Besides, I hate going out of my time-table, even rarely.

I'm not a big time celebrator either, It's just a new year for crisake.

I consider sleep a waste of time as well, and would be glad to get rid of this - unfortunately - necessary nuisance for good, but I need to sleep around 7.45 hours a day to function appropriately. The longest I've ever been awake were four days, after which not even walking could save me anymore: I would just faint asleep on the move.

4 Days? I can't last more than 24 hs. if I don't have a reason to stay awake.
I take off my hat to you.

I get around 4-7 hours of sleep per day during the school year (mostly five); and that is not the healthiest habit.

Normal life is a beautiful and craved for thing, when you have less than that. However, at the present moment I can't see any normality for myself; everything had been a bit too crooked around me in the past - in my view.

I would have liked to grow up and live in a perfectly normal, healthy real family. Not that my actual one is something outstanding, of course: they were two sincerely despising each other people with the notehead in passports, who had finally split up officially a a year and a half ago. Happens all the time. They had already been only tolerating one another by the time I was born; notwithstanding, they both wanted me, just separately.

Normal life may be desired or hated, it depends on the case (that's the thing with me, I want anything I can't have).
I'm the most abnormal person on a far too average family, and I dislike the fact that the normal relatives of mine can't seem to understand my difference and solitude.

Do you live alone now?

Do you mean you never actually act according to emotions? That would be impossible for me. I don't think I'm downright thick-headed, but mostly I do whatever I feel like doing at the very moment - spontaneously. Strange how sometimes I finally understand all the logical reasons underlying my actions only years after the actual event, and find that I would have chosen the same option if I were thinking at the time.
And, sometimes, I also like to act recklessly, deliberately abandoning conscious mind, because it is... interesting. As inebriated Ippolit in the "Ирония судьбы, или С лёгким паром!" movie had complained, 'We live boringly! We lack adventurism! We've forgotten how to climb in through our beloved women's windows. We've forgotten how to do big, nice fooleries!' Entirely true; there should be more captain Greys under the scarlet sails around us.
Don't you ever do such things? I would think you do.

I listen to my emotions often, but I don't pay attention to them on major decisions. If it is something relatively important, I will analyze every possibility to the extent that it will become a real tough dilemma, and then pick the best; the results seem to disappoint me on the long run.

I'm trying to balance that though, and make spontaneous choices more often.

Rare cases of happy real-life marriages of the Internet couples keep gnawing at the back of my mind.

-Happy real-life marriages are not as common nowadays, or so it seems-

Anyway, if you are up for it...

What could be so exciting about football?..

I ask the same question every time; I don't get the importance out of sports and competition in general.

Oh. What wind did bring you all together in Argentina?.. Unpredictable vicissitudes of fate, hm?

My country was one of the main points of immigration during the 30s; while English speakers went to the Northern part of the continent, the rest came to Argentina for it's similarity to Europe and good economical position.

El Virus
01-02-2006, 02:39 PM
^ I cannot post long messages here ^

I'd got some 'propaganda' from my father as well, he's a very pro-Soviets person. Opinions on the country are oftenly so extreme. There's idealizing, berating, blame on some things or the other, praise or loathing. Easy to get lost, especially when the only actual thing you yourself remember about the USSR is the money substitution: rubles and kopecks giving way to lits and cents. I was three, I suppose, and needed money for bubble-gum.

I'm half Russian, a quarter Jewish and a quartrer Tatar, by the way.

I'm guessing the situation wasn't as bad as the made it seem like.

So you are indeed a Russian living in Lithuania, right?

History of toilets definitely sounds enticing. Shame I prefer to fill my free time with Harry Potter and other endlessly un-educative matters, denying myself a chance to learn about such topical subjects. Seriously.

Reading is educative (as long as it is not Tom Clancy or any of those), and you seem to know enough.

Why, do they really do that all the time? Now that's something unheard of. To look somebody in the eyes is considered rude, or a sign of intimate trust, here. Or maybe extravagance. As for kissing non-relatives on cheek, I was kissed only once, by way of a thank-you, and still melt at the memory.
So, what you are saying is that antisocial elements like me would have been 'frowned at', too. Is that the feature of Argentina or the other SA countries as well?

Our dialect is very informal (we have deformed the Spanish language a lot), so Argentine people are much closer than the rest of South Americans (or so I've heard).
I've been referred to as 'very cold' on more than one occassion (most times actually).


And what did you sacrifice?
Then again, getting something special is always troublesome, one would think. Everything else, however, exists somewhere in the Internet. That's how we get most of the music nowadays, after all.

I didn't sacrifice anything, 'Nightmare' should have been the word.

My huge collection of radio serials comes from the internet. And so do most of the Russian songs I have; but as I've described on another thread, I need to have the box and stuff to feel complete.

Also: how about Seweryn Krajewski? Or... All right, I'm curious as to what else do you listen to, from Soviet Russian music.

I'm a big fan of Russian folk and traditional songs, like the Russian sailor's dance; Калинка; and my favourite, Полюшко-поле; I also enjoy anything played on a balalaika.

I've never heard anything by Krajewski, but I'll look into him.

Don't call ignorance Nihilism.
[...]
The only thing I've heard about India before was that it's every province had it's ruler, making India a patched-up country, plus jungles and an exceptionally serious approach to religion. Vague at best, I know.

I exaggerate a lot, remember? I find it to be a better way to make my poiny straight.
[u]Unprofound-Nihilism is just my far-fetched way of saying complete ignorance and uninterest.

If that quote is from Conan Doyle (and I think it is), I should add that I am not a big fan of him. Nevertheless, I somehow have to agree to that.

Charie
01-04-2006, 05:46 AM
El Virus
I'm not a big time celebrator either, It's just a new year for crisake.
I don't think New Year is a 'just'; I'd love to celebrate it properly. It's the lack of the right people, right places and that supposed christmas-spirit that makes celebration undesirable. New Year and Birthday are the biggest holidays of a year, after all. Or Christmas and Birthday, for religious folks, I guess.

4 Days? I can't last more than 24 hs. if I don't have a reason to stay awake.
I get around 4-7 hours of sleep per day during the school year (mostly five); and that is not the healthiest habit.
I had a reason: I wanted to see how long I can last without sleep. Happened gradually: two days were usual for me at that time, then three, finally four. The more you skip sleep, the more drunk you feel. Like a constant hangover.
I envy those who feel perfectly all right sleeping only three or four hours a day.

<...>(that's the thing with me, I want anything I can't have).
Do you live alone now?
We all want to have what we can't, I suppose. Dreaming of it makes no difference anyway. Sometimes I'd like to be a male, for example, and I'm sure that if I were one, I'd have similar ideas of being a female.

I'm materially supported by mother, so, technically, I don't 'live alone'. Practically, now I've been alone in mother's flat for a month, while she was in Israel, but her return this Friday may rise the question of my accommodation once again. I hope it won't, though; I don't particularly have anywhere to go.

If it is something relatively important, I will analyze every possibility to the extent that it will become a real tough dilemma, and then pick the best; the results seem to disappoint me on the long run.
If results are disappointing in any case, then why bother with profound logic.
I think I've always been sort of accidentally thown into all relatively important events of my life; sometimes, when I try to weigh all the possibilities, it all becomes, as you have said, such a tough dilemma, that I end up acting instinctively at any rate.

-Happy real-life marriages are not as common nowadays, or so it seems-
Why do you think they were more frequent in the past? It's all the same, I think; people never change in these aspects. We don't have arranged marriages as a common rule now, at least.
Besides, happy couples aren't as rare as you seem to believe. This is what I believe.

I don't get the importance out of sports and competition in general.
Oh, come on. Sports, competitions, Olympic games in general - they're excellent, for those participating, - and even to watch the champions and wonder at fellow humans' unique abilities. And there're figure skating and gymnastics, by the way.
But it's one thing to admire that amazing strength and skill and and hard work of particular persons, and another, when two herds of inexplicit species in multicolored shorts run and jump around one stupid ball. In my opinion. Better they'd read some clever book. All right, I just don't understand it.

I'm guessing the situation wasn't as bad as the [USA-led/Cold War/Right Wing/Western Culture] made it seem like.
I'm not sure what they made it seem like, really. Here, the largest pretensions concern the lack of decent food supplies and freedom of speech. But, well, looks like they lived on spiritual repast, so to speak; science, art, multicultural relations were on high.

So you are indeed a Russian living in Lithuania, right?
Uhum. My father's father was a military man, so after the War he'd been constantly moving with his unit around the Baltic part of the Soviets, and he was staying in Lithuanian SSR when he retired. My mother went to work in Vilnius after she graduated from university in Saint-Petersburg, by assignment. It was the same country back then.

Say, is Spanish your first language? Do you know Italian and German?

I've just noticed Astor Piazzolla's Argentinian. Seems I know at least something coming from your country.

Reading is educative (as long as it is not Tom Clancy or any of those), and you seem to know enough.
Who's Tom Clancy? -- See, I don't know anything.
Reading is educative, of course, but differently. You learn facts, and theories, and a lot of very handy and clever and important subjects from your books. I wasn't able to read at all for some time, and that what I now rarely read... khm. It teaches about human nature, maybe: various reactions to similar situations, reasons for unreasonable actions, good and evil traits of characters swapping over - about these ever changing elusive things, so that, naturally, it teaches nothing.

Besides, 'enough' is an elastic notion.

I've been referred to as 'very cold' on more than one occassion (most times actually).
Huh, I wonder what would you seem like in Lithuania, for example. These people can be icebergs, sometimes.

but as I've described on another thread, I need to have the box and stuff to feel complete.
In which thread?..
In the past, I had also felt like that, but as a collection grows, boxes become redundunt and inconvenient - for me. Isn't it much easier to stock and search for a needed item in the 100*-CD cases?

I'm a big fan of Russian folk and traditional songs, like the Russian sailor's dance; Калинка; and my favourite, Полюшко-поле; I also enjoy anything played on a balalaika.
I've never heard anything by Krajewski, but I'll look into him.
"Полюшко-поле"? Even the title sounds ridiculous. I guess I have no interest whatsoever in Russian folk-whatever. Was fed up with калинки-рябинки-берёзки since the early childhood, and have always considered such things being meant for toddlers. Perhaps it's all too natural, native for me to understand the supposed beauty of it. Your point of view is astounding. Калинка... Офигеть можно.
Wait. "Полюшко-поле" - isn't that a military song? I don't remember hearing it, but - do you really call an army song 'folk music'?

And I didn't recommend Krajewski, I only inquired. Of course, I like him very much, but I doubt it has much to do with Russian culture. Nothing, more like.
By the way, yesterday was Krejewski's 56th birthday, which I had completely forgotten about.

I exaggerate a lot, remember?
I'll try to remember henceforth.

If that quote is from Conan Doyle (and I think it is), I should add that I am not a big fan of him.
I don't think I'm a fan of Conan Doyle, but that of Sherlock Holms definitely. It's sad that I've learned almost by heart all stories about him many years ago and can't enjoy the grand mysteries any more. Though I still have details to explore.

El Virus
01-04-2006, 11:50 AM
It's the lack of the right people, right places and that supposed christmas-spirit that makes celebration undesirable.

I think that personally I'm just sick of the yearly celebration routine I have to stand.

I'm materially supported by mother, so, technically, I don't 'live alone'. Practically, now I've been alone in mother's flat for a month, while she was in Israel, but her return this Friday may rise the question of my accommodation once again. I hope it won't, though; I don't particularly have anywhere to go.

Does your father live in Lithuania too?

If results are disappointing in any case, then why bother with profound logic.
I think I've always been sort of accidentally thown into all relatively important events of my life; sometimes, when I try to weigh all the possibilities, it all becomes, as you have said, such a tough dilemma, that I end up acting instinctively at any rate.


That is why I am trying to change things. A balance between both would work out for me.

Why do you think they were more frequent in the past? It's all the same, I think; people never change in these aspects. We don't have arranged marriages as a common rule now, at least.
Besides, happy couples aren't as rare as you seem to believe. This is what I believe.

I believe in marriage and happy couples, don't get me wrong. I like the idea, furthermore.

The 'or so it seems' was there for a reason. According to the media there is a constane increase in divorce rates, and not all divorced couples end up in friendly terms. Of course, most of the things the media (television actually) says turn out to be fake or not so true.

Oh, come on. Sports, competitions, Olympic games in general - they're excellent, for those participating, - and even to watch the champions and wonder at fellow humans' unique abilities. And there're figure skating and gymnastics, by the way.
But it's one thing to admire that amazing strength and skill and and hard work of particular persons, and another, when two herds of inexplicit species in multicolored shorts run and jump around one stupid ball. In my opinion. Better they'd read some clever book. All right, I just don't understand it.

I'm not a sports fan, or a sportsy or competitive person for that matter. But I do prefer athletism over these silly team sports which are almost an obsession for some.

Do you like sports, are are you just a viewer?

I'm not sure what they made it seem like, really. Here, the largest pretensions concern the lack of decent food supplies and freedom of speech. But, well, looks like they lived on spiritual repast, so to speak; science, art, multicultural relations were on high.

Not sure whether that's irony or not :p.

But either way, decent food supplies and freedom of speech are not abundant in the so called free world or democratic countries.

In the United States of America (the auto-denominated freedom spreaders), back in the 50s people with political ideas similar to those of Communism, were black listed. Great minds who were banned from working include, Chaplin, Hammet and many other writers.

In case you are wondering, I don't believe in democracy.

Say, is Spanish your first language? Do you know Italian and German?

Yes, Spanish is my first language. I don't care much about Italian, and I like German, but I do not really want to learn it.
Only languages I know are Spanish, English, French; and a very tiny bit of Russian and Esperanto (not that this latter one is actually useful).

What about you?

I've just noticed Astor Piazzolla's Argentinian. Seems I know at least something coming from your country.

And most of us agree that Carlos Gardel was as well; he is the only national symbol I idolize.



Who's Tom Clancy? -- See, I don't know anything.
Reading is educative, of course, but differently. You learn facts, and theories, and a lot of very handy and clever and important subjects from your books. I wasn't able to read at all for some time, and that what I now rarely read... khm. It teaches about human nature, maybe: various reactions to similar situations, reasons for unreasonable actions, good and evil traits of characters swapping over - about these ever changing elusive things, so that, naturally, it teaches nothing.

Besides, 'enough' is an elastic notion.

Clancy is this writer from the USA which writes very long and redundant books. They all deal with the same, and are pure American propaganda and bull****.

With enough, I mean a lot; but I don't want to be over-complimenting you ;).

Huh, I wonder what would you seem like in Lithuania, for example. These people can be icebergs, sometimes.

No idea; my uncle was treated as rude when he warmly greeted a lot of people in England.

In which thread?..
In the past, I had also felt like that, but as a collection grows, boxes become redundunt and inconvenient - for me. Isn't it much easier to stock and search for a needed item in the 100*-CD cases?

I miss Adventure Games thread, while talking about game downloading.

"Полюшко-поле"? Even the title sounds ridiculous. I guess I have no interest whatsoever in Russian folk-whatever. Was fed up with калинки-рябинки-берёзки since the early childhood, and have always considered such things being meant for toddlers. Perhaps it's all too natural, native for me to understand the supposed beauty of it. Your point of view is astounding. Калинка... Офигеть можно.
Wait. "Полюшко-поле" - isn't that a military song? I don't remember hearing it, but - do you really call an army song 'folk music'?

Полюшко-поле's lyrics aren't anything special either, but the musical score is great and uplifting.
I think it is a pro-soviet military song, yes. I guess calling it a folk song wasn't the right thing.

What do you mean with your point of view is astounding? It all has to do with the culture, if I would have had to endure those songs constantly as a child I wouldn't be a fan of them either.

kolto
06-25-2006, 01:28 AM
I'm sure this has probably been debated quite a lot before but you'll have to forgive me because i'm new to the forums. So... Manny doesn't seem to have been a bad soul in life judging by his actions in death so why was he made to be a reaper?

My theories are that maybe when you die it might change your outlook on "life".

Or possibly you are made to forget so you don't spend your time looking back and cursing your actions instead of helping other souls.

i don't find either of these ideas really satisfying so if there are any other theories out there i'd like to hear them
:sithk: :sithk:

neon_git
06-25-2006, 01:08 PM
Wow, I had no idea people were still posting in this thread.

*sigh* it takes me back to the good old days when I didn't have to pay for my internet connection.

Quoththeraven
08-04-2006, 12:11 PM
the problem of Salvidor introduces a whole new thing into the paying off time thing. He had a ticket, all along, but he was once a reaper. So, why? How could he both be good enough for the number nine, and yet still need to pay off time?

Smon
08-04-2006, 12:13 PM
They probably lied to him. They told him he had a debt to pay, just so they could sell his ticket.

Quoththeraven
08-04-2006, 12:20 PM
But if Manny was a reaper even before the corruption took place, and if Salvidor was cheated by said corruption, then he'd be working at the same time as Manny. And Manny doesn't recognise him.

Smon
08-04-2006, 12:23 PM
Hm... maybe the corruption took place before Manny was there, and he just never noticed because the phase of the plan where they steal the tickets wasn't initiated until the time around where the game started.

neon_git
08-04-2006, 02:24 PM
Okay, here's one for you ... maybe the game's internal logic doesn't extend that far.

I mean we've already got the whole deal with Celso in Rubacava ... so maybe the game contradicts itself, maybe there is no explanation.

But maybe, just maybe it doesn't matter.

And maybe I'm being cynical but we're at what? 5 pages now? And still no compelling answers (I assume, I didn't actually read the whole thing). Perhaps it's time to call it a day.

But maybe that's just me ...

VampireNaomi
08-04-2006, 03:01 PM
We can never have real answers for any of these questions. We can only speculate and, honestly, no speculation is better than another.

There could be many reasons why Manny doesn't recognise Salvador. The DOD building is huge; maybe they worked in different parts of it and never ran to each other.

However, somehow I get the impression that Salvador was a reaper before Manny's time. Maybe the corruption didn't spread very far in the beginning, so that it would remain hidden. So, maybe Salvador got screwed, left the DOD, Manny came, was a good salesman for a while until the corruption spread to his floor? No one knows.

I agree with neon_git on that repeating the same thing over and over again can get tiring, but what else do we have to do in here? :D Besides, someone comes up with a fresh idea every now and then.

Torque
09-07-2007, 08:56 PM
(Hmmm, well regarding Celso it is possible that he spent a bit of time walking, got attacked by some ugly demon, defended himself with his walking stick, fled, then someone else (who earned a sports car) offered him a ride to Rubacava.)

Back on topic,

What did Manny do to become a reaper since he doesn't seem such a bad guy?

First of all, I don't think becoming a reaper is really the worst form of punishment. It may actually be even better than having to walk all the way to the Ninth Underworld. Maybe there's some kind of "retirement" plan where reapers get transport to the next world and don't have to walk four years. I mean, hell, Manny even got a Number Nine ticket as a "retirement present" for helping rid the DoD of corruption, even thought he originally didn't earn it. (And no, his ticket wasn't stolen, the storyline seems to be pretty clear on that.)

It makes no sense to give the most immoral people a job of such a great responsibility. They just wouldn't do it right and would abuse their position for personal gain the first chance they'd get.

Let's consider a few facts:
1) Manny claims he doesn't know what he did. (He may have tried to hide something from Domino when he claimed this, but this is extremely doubtful considering the context in which he said it.)

I say that maybe he's just in denial. He kind of suspects what he may have done, but doesn't actually want to fully admit that what he did was wrong out of pride or something else. There's almost no way you can commit a very immoral act and not realize it. People like that are usually considered insane.

I really don't think he did something that bad like kill someone in cold blood or steal something, but it is possible that he may have been a very selfish and greedy person in life and that his decisions, actions or words, although not illegal or particulary immoral, may have still significantly influenced someone's else life in a very very bad way.

He may have hurt women's feelings by pretending to really care about them, he may have refused to help someone in desperate need, even though he could have very easily. Maybe he was in a high position and because of his selfish or harsh decisions, someone may have been forced into bankruptcy or suicide or something.

Exibit A: Even in death he displays somewhat selfish behaviour. He says "one of these days I'm going to ride the Number Nine out of here", despite knowing quite well he didn't earn a ticket. He doesn't really want to help Salvador or Meche at first, he just wants to do anything he can to leave the 9th Underworld. Of course, he seems to change over the course of the game to the point where he refuses to enter the 9th Underwolrd until the whole mess is sorted out and all the people are saved.

Exibit B: He kind of resembles a woman-chaser type.

Exibit C: He's very competitive. It's hard to believe you can just become a nightclub owner despite being broke and then a ship captain so easily without being at least somewhat greedy.

Exibit D: The punishment itself. What better way to punish a selfish person other than to force him to help countless souls out with their lifetime rewards.

Exibit E: On the Day of the Dead, he reveals that the reason he's not back home visiting the living is because there's "noone back there he wants to see". This strongly implies that he was never much of a family man.