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RenegadeOfPhunk
09-12-2004, 07:33 AM
OK - this is an open-ended brain-storming session about what people might like to see in a class system for OJP.

The kinds of things we are looking for is:

* WHat gametypes woudl be covered? (All gametypes? ALl gametpyes except Siege - currently has one after all - just TFFA...?)

* What kinda of classes? (Movie based? EU too? Abilities?). Try and keep the abilities part reasonable though...

OK - let's get those ideas flowing...

razorace
09-12-2004, 12:22 PM
I'll have to download the latest version of MB and se how your guys' implimentation is going.

Nemios
09-13-2004, 01:33 AM
My generic preferences:

- Not too many classes
- Not too powerful (force points)
- Only movie-based
- All gametypes
- Assign classes to bots (very important)

Examples/ideas

- A Force user class which can select every power of its side but can't use weapons
- A Force user class which can select the first 2 powers of both side but can't use weapons
- A Force user class which can select only neutral powers and can use some weapons
- A mercenary class which can use some weapons and those devices found in siege (jetpack or cloacking)
- A soldier class which can use all weapons

No level 4 Force level or uber classes. The good part of a class system is the management of your capabilities, you have to leave something out if you want another ability.

AJL
09-13-2004, 08:04 AM
I think classes could include:

1. Jedi/Sith Saber Master
All sabers available (staff, duel, single) but limited force powers
( no drain, lightning, grip, ... and all others limited to level 2 )
( no shields, no armor, no guns, no...)

2. Jedi/Sith Force Master
Only one normal saber but all force powers and levels available
( no shields, no armor, no guns, no...)

3. Jedi/Sith New Age
Only one normal saber and limited force powers just like Saber
Master but also have blaster pistol and rifle... ( no shields, no
armor, no big guns...)

4. Bounty Hunter
Have Jetpack, Flame thrower, Sniper rifle, Blaster pistols +Rocket
and good agility and light armor (no shields, no big guns, no...)

5. Basic Trooper/Droid
Have Heavy armor, Lots of guns and explosives, climbing hook, ...

6. Droideka
Have powerfull blasters and shield generator of course...

AIVAS
09-13-2004, 11:07 AM
There are really just two many options. It depends on what you're looking for. Do you mind using other star wars games as a basis? What are you trying to get with the class system? More team based, or a diversion to the usual kill-fest?

Game based:

Blaster-jedi:
Limited force powers, such as not push/pull, but level two lightning, level two drain, vs 2 heal/protect, as well as speed and sense. Possibly somehting like dual blasters or a similar high ROF (rate-of-fire) gun.

Traditional jedi:
\saber based: More stances (Similar to FM3) and new saber abilities, as well as increased power/defense with the saber, but limited to maybe heal/protect or rage, and push/pull/jump.

\force based: less saber abilities, but no restrictions on force, perhaps a faster force regeneration rate.

Mandalorian:
Mandalorian armor (Amazingly light, and provides a superb level of protection against anything, some varieties even have a slight resistanceto lightsabers.)
Heavy weapons.
Extras (Selectable almost like MBII?) some mandalorian footsoldiers were skilled with extra tools such as jetpacks, detonaters, and flamethrowers, but never all of these. (jango and boba were unique.)

And that's just an example using kotor alone.

EDIT: Begin opinion: It's my thought that a jedi SHOULD be able to go against almost any odds and succeed, but that's why the number of force users should be highly limited. But that's another problem, how to keep the players able to use a force class changing, perhaps allow people to only use one for say 5 lives? So that, on the sixth respawn, they would be forced to choose a new class and someone else got jedi?

keshire
09-13-2004, 09:32 PM
Well if it's to be different from MB, I'd just try and drop the seige implimentation. And base it on Team FFA.

AS a seperate gametype.

Called TFFA - Class based. From there you can drop in your finally balanced MB classes.

Kyle Kelasheski
09-29-2004, 09:57 PM
After working on ForceMod 3's ini files, alpha and beta testing the mod, here's my two cents on what I'd like to see in a class based version of OJP.

I think the key is to keep the classes to a minimum, and then try to define them according to what we've seen in the movies. After all, that'll heighten the sense of immersion, and in my opinion, add a lot to the game play.

(1) Jedi classes should have their abilities defined in a manner that is very similar to what we've seen in KotOR. I thought that it was very well executed, and certainly fell within the range of cinematic believability. The saber combat system that the Jedi engage in should be very similar to what it is now, although I'd love to see it come closer to my vision spelled out here http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129929&perpage=40&pagenumber=2] and here http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=134205 . Now I realize that we all can't get our way all the time, but it's alright to at least hope for favorable results. ;)

My only worry with the adjusting of saber skill levels is that the results of a duel will become more determined on the results of chance rather than real skill. Perhaps the further removed from saber use one gets, the fewer STANCES one has access to. In my opinion, the best stance is the one with the LEAST amount of "flashy" moves so that preparing/delvery time of a saber's swing is reduced to a minimum. Those who are more god like with their Force powers would be more confined to using the fancier looking stances, while those who rely on the lightsaber more would have access to stances that allow for quicker attacks/parrys. The reliance on probability would thus be reduced, and those players who like the extra Force powers would just simply have to contend with learning how to time their flashier saber swings. In other words, the emphasis is kept on actual skill of timing one's swing with another player's opening than having to rely on probability.


(2) Mandalorians should have VERY slow ground movements, with VERY fragile jetpacks (they're pieces of junk in the films), have access to all the cinematic gizmos, along with the gadgets that we've seen in McQuarrie's designs (the launchers that fire tranquilizer darts that are located at the kneecaps). Any special vision their helmet gives them should be pretty limited in its range (it might be able to perceive heat signatures through one wall, but definately not two).


(3) Geonosians can fly very short distances, but with a great degree of control, fire sonic blasters that emit a large bolt of energy that knocks players back and stuns them for several seconds, and the Geonosians carry spears/some type of vibro staff to dispatch enemies with.

(4) Combat droids. Well, whatever type of droid is put in the mod should have its own capabilities based on its appearances/behaviors in the films.


(5) Clone Troopers/Storm Troopers have infrared vision similar to Mandalorians, but they're only a little slower than an unarmored human. The ARC Troopers' abilities would be very similar to the elite type Storm Troopers that are better known as "Sand Troopers." I'd imagine with all the extra equipment that they cary that they'd be equipped with a limited number of thermal detonators, which could be quite lethal to Jedi (one grenade should severely wound/kill anyone struck by its shrapnel).


(6) Human/Wookie characters are able to move at full speed, and since they're not "brainwashed" like the troopers are, they have much greater access to different weapon types since they're allowed to be more resourceful.


(7) Bounty Hunters & Commandos have access to the ultra heavy duty weapons that are too expensive/too difficult for others to acquire. They wear NO/minimal special armor, and their speed is somewhere between that of a Mandalorian and a Trooper since Commando type specialists have to lug around heavier equipment that requires heavier ammo.


PLEASE avoid permiting any kind of class from picking up and using all kinds of weapons. Games where one can run around with 8 different weapons on one body are hard for me to become immersed in, since it's just SO impossible for anyone to be able to do this. Keep the number down to two, or three at most. This in itself can be a tool for balancing out classes.

And if at all possible, please allow players to aim their weapons. Running and gunning IS done in the films, but it's just as common, if not more so, to see shooters actually bring weapons to their eyes, aiming, then firing. Oh, and enable LEANING with the Q or E keys so that cover can be used effectively, since blaster bolts will drop a body in 1-3 hits.

That's it from me for now. Ciao!

Kyle

:)

keshire
09-30-2004, 02:16 AM
PLEASE avoid permiting any kind of class from picking up and using all kinds of weapons. Games where one can run around with 8 different weapons on one body are hard for me to become immersed in, since it's just SO impossible for anyone to be able to do this. Keep the number down to two, or three at most. This in itself can be a tool for balancing out classes.

You need to familiarize yourself with the www.moviebattles.com class system.

It is nothing like ForceMod 3. Very balanced gameplay. Based off OJP code. Coded by Renegade, and is what this class system would be based on.

Dacks
10-01-2004, 08:18 AM
After following the previous posts, it's hard to not notice the influence both Movie Battles II (http://www.moviebattles.com) and [url=http://fm.mt-wudan.com]Force Mod 3[url] have on any attempt of some sort of Class System that graps the most biggest type of characters. MB2 gives the Movie-realism a lot of people are beginning to crave for and FM3 gives the huge assortment of things usefell for the current gametypes. Eitehr way, It's seems it's either this or that and you'll end up with either one or the other mod.

I personally don't think it's best for OJP to also start going the classroute, but choose something more unique.

An approach not yet taken by any mod for the Jedi Knight Series, I'm aware of, is having the option of going either Saberist or Gunner and then using an altered version of MB's Buying System, Slot System

Instead of upgrading weapons, you simply buy them and that's it, you have it. This way a gunner could equip himself anyway he wishes. The trick is that certain weaponry would take up a certain amount of slots. Let's say you have 10 slots open and you buy a Jetpack. The jetpack would take up about 4 slots, in addition you buy a Concussion Rifle (taking up 4 slots) and buy a Rocket Launcher (taking 3 slots). As an example of this.

This is something different than going the route FM3 and MB2 already have taken, gives Gunners the free option of making their own sort of ''class'' or ''fighter'' and would eaisly blend with the current Gametypes of FFA, TFFA, CTF and possibly SIEGE.

AIVAS
10-01-2004, 05:57 PM
but whatever classes you pick, I'd like to add this comment.


It's been in a few games now, and I'd like to request that you consider a "Blaster jedi" type class.

Bit2k4
10-02-2004, 10:21 AM
I personally don't think it's best for OJP to also start going the classroute, but choose something more unique.

An approach not yet taken by any mod for the Jedi Knight Series, I'm aware of, is having the option of going either Saberist or Gunner and then using an altered version of MB's Buying System, Slot System

Instead of upgrading weapons, you simply buy them and that's it, you have it. This way a gunner could equip himself anyway he wishes. The trick is that certain weaponry would take up a certain amount of slots. Let's say you have 10 slots open and you buy a Jetpack. The jetpack would take up about 4 slots, in addition you buy a Concussion Rifle (taking up 4 slots) and buy a Rocket Launcher (taking 3 slots). As an example of this.


He has a great idea lol. What I was thinking, which probably would require MORE than just codeing and such, would be to do a Diablo Inventory sort of thing. You can hold on to a gun, and some guns, like the rocket launcher, would take up both hands. But something like jango's blasters, would take up one, and you could use two of em.

Then you have a little box down below where you can store up to 3 or 4 weapons, and depending on their weight/ability, will slow you down. And you can hold some, and carry the others guns at the same time. This makes it so you can have probably [depending on weight] about 5 or 6 weapons with you at a time.

That way, if you want to be a heavy weapons person, you take heavy weapons, but the bad side is it slows you down, that way you can make in between classes. Like, a person with 1 heavy weapon, and then smaller weapons like blasters, and thermals. That way he can kill big things like AT-ST's [for sake of example] and yet still be able to run at a good speed to get out of its way!

Think about that, that makes sense in my eyes, but would take probably more than just a few code strands.

JediLiberator
10-02-2004, 08:28 PM
Why not instead of a class system have a skills system. You use force points to decide how good you are with various weaponry and equipment(jet pack, flame thrower, etc) so the player can decide what they want to use. Also this would force jedi player to spend some point of basic weapon proficiencies. That way they aren't quite so super powered with force and saber. The only thing everyone should be able to use by default is health packs.

Kyle Kelasheski
10-12-2004, 06:15 AM
I REALLY like the above two posts in regards to implementing a class based system. In fact, I enjoy the two so much that I feel that it'd be wisest to merge the two together.

Allowing "classes" to be OPEN ended and yet totally PLAYER selected seems fantastic to me. Infiltration (aka "INF"), the UT total conversion I've mentioned elsewhere, works in exactly this fashion.

In INF, a player can choose whatever equipment he wants, but the bigger the equipment, and the greater the amount of ammo/gear that's selected, the heavier the player becomes, the slower he moves, and all the more quickly stamina is drained. Loading up is possible, but not always practical, or, in the end, even desirable. It's a completely believable and superbly effective way of balancing out classes. By the way, as equipment is used up/gear is discarded, the lighter the player becomes in real time. Again, another realistic class balancing technique, after all, why should a player who starts out with a LOT of gear CONTINUE to pay for that gear's penalties when he NO longer has it to use? The only thing that'd be permanant in terms of weight/encumbrance is the grade of armor the player purchased to protect himself with.

Jedi are a different beast though when it comes to balancing. Generally, they don't carry a lot of equipment, but nevertheless move about with a lot of power that is quite effective against non-Force classes. Perhaps Force Users can be balanced out by (1) Allowing non-Force classes to purchase various levels of Force defenses, for example, "Strong Will," which would make it less likely that the purchaser would be affected by Persuasion, and (2) Make Force-based defenses against missile/explosion based attacks COSTLY. What I mean more specifically in regards to cost is not only in regards to how much mana it takes to enable the defense to be active, but also the cost in regards to purchasing said type of defense to begin with. For example, I imagine three levels of missile fire defense, partially defined for each type of blaster (pistol, assault rifles, and emplaced/vehicular blasters). If a player buys Level 3 Missile Defense (for emplaced/vehicular blasters), he'll be extremely strong at blocking/reflecting pistol shots, adept at blocking/reflecting bolts from assault rifles, and somewhat effective at turning away shots from the emplaced weapons/vehicles. So, in effect, each level of missile defense not only purchases the ability to block certain TYPES of blasters, but the levels also piggyback on each other in determining how effectively weaker weapons are defended against. The same type of structure could be applied to other powers as well, such as Push/Pull.; it'd get more costly to Push away fast moving targets such as energy grenades, and even more expensive to be able to redirect rockets and torpedos launched from craft--the more points that are put into Push, the greater the odds are of redirecting the attack towards the attacker.

Now that I think about it, having "slots" is probably completely unnecessary in regards to balancing out classes. Weight and the effect of its encumbrance will most likely be all that's needed to balance out the non-Force classes.

The only thing that'd have to be pre-determined equipment/Force wise is what the bots are going to be when they're added to a game.

I'm pretty excited over the possibilities!

:)