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JediKenobi
09-13-2004, 12:07 PM
With all this talk about the release of the
OT on DVD and all the changes. (Grrr
....George) Made me think. Why not
release a "Original Theatrical Edition" on
DVD. That way us old school OT fans could stop complaining about all of GL's changes to the OT! Plus we wouldn't be stuck with VHS tape that breakdown over time! I know there has to be enough of a market for it! What do you guys think?:) :)

- JediKenobi

bentwookie77
09-14-2004, 12:48 AM
Thats really what most of us have been asking for. We want to have the OT in its original format, but GL didn't want to put it on dvd.

What would've been the best option for everyone would be to include both the original theatrical version and the special editions on the same dvd.
But GL didn't want to do that so we are all stuck with the "special editions".

I do think that Lucas might release them at somepoint later on in the future in order to make more money. Because while most of dont wouldn't want to go out and buy another edition of the dvd's.... we also would want the film in its original presentation

But only time will tell i suppose

Sivy
09-14-2004, 12:59 AM
i doubt it.

the way GL sees it is the original theatrical edition did not reflect 'his vision', due to special effects that werenít available back then, also budget and time restrains.
whereas the Special Edition and now the DVD Edition are closer to 'his vision' and therefore are the only versions in his eyes.

the only option for fans of the original theatrical edition is to buy the unofficial VCD -> DVD rips that youíll find on ebay. I have a friend who has them and he says the quality is excellent.

JediKenobi
09-14-2004, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Siv
i doubt it.

the way GL sees it is the original theatrical edition did not reflect 'his vision', due to special effects that werenít available back then, also budget and time restrains.
whereas the Special Edition and now the DVD Edition are closer to 'his vision' and therefore are the only versions in his eyes.

the only option for fans of the original theatrical edition is to buy the unofficial VCD -> DVD rips that youíll find on ebay. I have a friend who has them and he says the quality is excellent.

I was affraid that I would have to resort to buying DVD rips.:( I prefer something official with special features etc.:) I think I'll start a petition drive the next time there is a scifi convention in town. :cool: If the Star Trek community can get that series resurrected then we can get back our beloved OT in its original edit!

- Peace, JediKenobi:)

Lynk Former
09-14-2004, 07:01 AM
Oh you could NOT go the illegal way, bide you time and wait till Lucas releases the original Original Trilogy. And they will. More money to make that way.

Sivy
09-14-2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by JediKenobi
II prefer something official with special features etc



actually the laser discs did come with special features.

take a look at this one on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=617&item=6323210799&rd=1#ebayphotohosting


of course i'm not condoning anything illegal.
just saying that i don't think GL will release the theatrical versions.

Lynk Former
09-14-2004, 08:47 AM
so please don't link to such things.

Prime
09-14-2004, 12:15 PM
Are the originals even around in a usable state any more? The original special editions have little featurettes which seem to claim that the original film was in such a bad state that they had to do the remastering or else they originals were going to be unusable.

That being said, I suspect just including the originals as well would not have been trivial. It may have required double or more of the remastering effort since the originals may require heavy cleanup. Remember the DVDs are based on the special editions, not the original print.

In any event, I would have liked to see the originals included, but at the same time I can kind of understand where Lucas is coming from. He is there with his well beautiful new picture, and people are threatening his life to get the picture he did with crayons and colouring outside the lines.

He knows there is no pleasing some people, so he doesn't try.

Sivy
09-15-2004, 02:51 AM
yeah in the interviews on the special editions they said the film needed to be restored otherwise it was have disintegrated. so it's possible the theatrical versions no longer exist.

Kurgan
09-15-2004, 03:12 PM
Nah, they must exist, because "restoration" doesn't equal "destruction."

He used the restored versions to create the special editions. Most likely he's got it backed up in digital format.

What, did the footage of the Scottish guy talking to Han Solo degrade so they HAD to put in a CGI Jabba to patch up the big hole in the film? No, that's BS.

Also, the idea that "Lucas didn't have the budget and special effects back then" is BS. Why?

Because while back in 1977 he did go over budget, and he did fight the studio, and he had no idea SW was going to be a success, that was NOT the case with ESB or especially ROTJ.

Back in the 1980's, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fischer, and Mark Hamill were all still young. He could have easily gotten some or all of them back (on contract) to film additional scenes if those were needed.

He could have "Fixed" his films anytime, especially after ROTJ when he was rolling in dough.

Changes like replacing the Emperor with another actor, redubbing people's voices, etc, those are ALL within the capabilities of tech. Want to film a new scene with Vader? No problem! Just get a tall guy into the Vader suit (if David Prowse isn't available) and have James Earl Jones redub the lines (doesn't matter how old or out of shape he is, unless he's got laryngitis he'll sound the part). And refilm the scene. Or splice in the other actor. It's not like blue screen effects weren't done already, and while they might have looked bad back then (1983), a "blue hologram" doesn't leave you much choice there and people don't expect a perfect quality deal (since it's a hologram, not a real person in the room).

The CGI Jabba thing is a different story altogether, but again, it would actually have been easier for Lucas to put Jabba into the scene if he'd decided to back in 1983 when the Jabba puppet wasn't decayed and desiccated from being in a locker in the heat and humidity for years.
Then we'd have the "real thing" and not some CGI deal. Have Harrison Ford refilm the scene (he'd only be 6 years older, give the guy some makeup and a new hairdo). If you want to make Jabba move around, well no big deal there, put him on a dolly. They made Yoda walk around in ESB, they just didn't show his feet when he did it.

Lucas didn't care about his "original vision" until he decided to make the prequels, then suddenly he wanted to do all these changes to get publicity and another excuse to sell everyone a new copy of the movies.


As has been pointed out on other forums before, someof the most obvious SFX gaffes have NOT been corrected in the SE, or (rumored) in the new DVD's. So Lucas is focusing on the wrong stuff to "fix."

The Greedo scene could also have been refilmed in the 1980's, since Harrison Ford was still young. Just get the Greedo suit and film it again with Greedo shooting first in a realistic manner. But no, we got a crappy way of doing it. What studio forced him to have Han shoot first? None that I've ever heard of. So Lucas just changed his mind, and he waited so long, he had no choice but to use digital effects to make it realistic (and he failed at that, many would say).

Why did he need to show "young Anakin" as a ghost? He didn't feel the need to change Yoda or Obi-Wan to their younger selves from the prequels... and he could have done the prequels in such a way so they took place a longer time ago or showed Anakin as a middle aged man when he became Vader, etc. It's just goofy.

Blue-screening a Jedi Ghost would also (like the hologram thing above) be not that big a deal. Granted, since he waited over a decade to make the prequels he wasn't going to know what young actor he was going to use, etc. but it's silly.

And with all these "contradictions" between the prequels and the OT that need to be "Fixed" with these changes (like Hayden's ghost). Well, why didn't he just plan ahead and write the Prequels (since he wrote and directed them all himself this time) so that THEY matched the OT and not the other way around? Going back and reverse engineering some 20 year old films to fit with the plot of some modern ones. Doh!

Lucas can make all the excuses he wants, but to me it's just an obvious example of him changing his mind at the last minute and then trying to force his fans to go along with it in order to make some more money.

Fixing SFX gaffes is one thing (which he seems to be doing haphazardly), but changing the plot and characters is quite another (Anakin, Han Solo, etc.), and he seems to favor major changes just for the sake of changing them, not for any good reason to mess with a classic. He has the right to make the changes, as long as he keeps the originals available to the public.

JediKenobi
09-15-2004, 10:28 PM
Well said Kurgan!

He must have fully restored all 3 films while making the SE's. After all George
might be prone to indecisiveness but he is not crazy! George knows better that to let them rott away and the SE's would have been the perfect opportunity to preserve them.;) :)

- JediKenobi

Codja X
09-16-2004, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by JediKenobi
George knows better that to let them rott away and the SE's would have been the perfect opportunity to preserve them.;) :)

- JediKenobi

and now that they're all in a undegradable digital format, they'll be there for our great-grandkids to enjoy as well. I bet there'll still be arguments raging about the Ewoks and Jar Jar in 50 years time:)

Prime
09-16-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
then suddenly he wanted to do all these changes to get publicity and another excuse to sell everyone a new copy of the movies. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. They can take it or leave it. People have to decide what is important to them.

I'd like to see the originals on DVD too. But I am also happy to have a cleaned up version with many new effects that, IMO, look better.

And according to several sources it was when Jurassic Park was released Lucas decided technology had come far enough to do effects that he approved of, like ships taking off, more animate aliens, and so on. According to Hamill Lucas was unhappy with 75% of Star Wars after it was completed. I think the idea that he was pleased and that all changed in the late 90's isn't quite correct. :)

Jan Gaarni
09-16-2004, 11:39 AM
To me, the only bad things about ANH was that Han now shoots second. :swear:

Other than that it was pretty much all good. The Jabba scene was ok, but not too well done. The character and color of Jabba didn't quite match the Ep. I and Ep. VI Jabba, but that could easily be explained away by saying he went thru his/her female stage. :)

The new ANH Jabba scene will be touched up even more, and the Han scene I hear has been altered yet again, but they have found a middleground appearantly, where they both shoot at the same time, Han getting the trigger fastest so Greedo misses. But don't quote me on that one. :D

Will be alot better than the 1997 SE version if it's true. ;)


I liked how they opened up some of the Cloud City corridors and halls. They pulled those off really nice I think. Other than that there wasn't much altered in that movie. Some added snow monster scenes, which was nice. Can't think of anything else they enhanced or added.


RotJ saw even less enhancements, replacements, and new added scenes than the 2 previous films. Not much worth mentioning.

EDIT: Uu, uu, uu, totally forgot: New Rancor Pit scene. :D

Revlt Coranier
09-18-2004, 06:05 PM
I was mowing the lawn this morning, and I made up a commercial for the release of the theatrical version of the Original Trilogy on DVD.

It starts out with just stars, and you hear a booming voice (the one from the new DVD commercials) going "For the first time on DVD, the original movies as you saw them on the big screen..."
Then the Star Wars theme starts playing, and he says "The STAR WARS original trilogy-theatrical edition"
Then when it gets to the soft part of the theme, he goes "Each disc in this three-disc set has the movie as it was originally released in theaters, PLUS the movie with all of the deleted scenes included"

That's all I have so far. Tell me what you guys think :D

Prime
09-19-2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
To me, the only bad things about ANH was that Han now shoots second. :swear: Rumor is they shoot at the same time now.

Jan Gaarni
09-19-2004, 01:54 PM
You've heard it too, huh. :)

Well, I'd prefer it restored the way it was, but it's better than keeping it like in the SE. :rolleyes:

Sivy
09-20-2004, 01:03 AM
I suppose thatís a decent enough compromise. shooting at the same time, quick-draw style.

El Sitherino
09-20-2004, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Sivy
I suppose thatís a decent enough compromise. shooting at the same time, quick-draw style. very John Wayne-esque eh?

Kurgan
09-22-2004, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Prime
No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. They can take it or leave it. People have to decide what is important to them.

I'd like to see the originals on DVD too. But I am also happy to have a cleaned up version with many new effects that, IMO, look better.

And according to several sources it was when Jurassic Park was released Lucas decided technology had come far enough to do effects that he approved of, like ships taking off, more animate aliens, and so on. According to Hamill Lucas was unhappy with 75% of Star Wars after it was completed. I think the idea that he was pleased and that all changed in the late 90's isn't quite correct. :)

No, Lucas can't force people to do anything, but he is making it DIFFICULT. The Original Films exist only on degrading VHS copies which were last printed in 1995 (and 1992-1995 was the only time Widescreen prints were released that I know of). OR you can track down LaserDisk copies (which will last, though they are prone to more damage than DVD's and are more unwieldy to use, since they have to be flipped mid-viewing) which means you also have to track down a LaserDisk player, which are obsolete in pretty much the entire world (supposedly they were still in use in Japan in 1999, which is why TPM was released on LD at the same time as VHS). There's also VCD (VideoCD) which is popular in Asia, but everyone knows this is inferior quality, and pan'n'scan only. You need a PC to view these (usually with burned-in subtitles you can't turn off) since VideoCD players are uncommon outside of Asia.

Lucas says "the originals don't exist for me anymore" and so your only choice is to track down the LD's and LD players if you want something that will last, OR you can go the non-legal route and buy some bootleg someone made (using a VHS or LD as the master).

Lucas would silence a lot of the criticism if he'd make the originals (as they were shown in theaters circa 1983) available on DVD alongside these new versions.

And in interviews it's basically been admitted that there is a FULL DIGITAL MASTER of the originals, cleaned up, without the new graphics added, so he could just release that, at little extra cost (to what the 2004 DVD project has already cost him) and selling those could at least break even whatever he put into it (and I'm guessing sell a bit more).

Us Old School people will buy the originals and we'll buy the new ones too because we're curious. ; )

Lucas doesn't stand to lose from this, but he wants to be stubborn and insist that we can only see this new version of the films, and so he'll just have to put up with angry fans if that's what he wants....

Sivy
09-22-2004, 02:26 AM
which goes to show that GL isnít the greedy money grabber that people make him out to be. because it wouldnít cost him much to release the theatrical versions and he would make more money from it. but he wont because he's not happy with those versions. which shows he cares more about his vision of star wars than money.

Prime
09-22-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
No, Lucas can't force people to do anything, but he is making it DIFFICULT. The Original Films exist only on degrading VHS copies which were last printed in 1995 (and 1992-1995 was the only time Widescreen prints were released that I know of). Which I own, luckily. :)

Originally posted by Kurgan
OR you can track down LaserDisk copies (which will last, though they are prone to more damage than DVD's and are more unwieldy to use, since they have to be flipped mid-viewing) which means you also have to track down a LaserDisk player, which are obsolete in pretty much the entire world (supposedly they were still in use in Japan in 1999, which is why TPM was released on LD at the same time as VHS). Which my friend owns. Actually the commentary on the laserdisk version is quite interesting. In the ESB one he talks about how they have some asteroids made from potatoes. :D

Originally posted by Kurgan
Lucas would silence a lot of the criticism if he'd make the originals (as they were shown in theaters circa 1983) available on DVD alongside these new versions. He could, and I agree it would be nice. But at the same time I understand why he doesn't want to.

Originally posted by Kurgan
And in interviews it's basically been admitted that there is a FULL DIGITAL MASTER of the originals, cleaned up, without the new graphics added, so he could just release that, at little extra cost (to what the 2004 DVD project has already cost him) and selling those could at least break even whatever he put into it (and I'm guessing sell a bit more). I hadn't seen any comments like that, so I thought perhaps it was in worse shape.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Us Old School people will buy the originals and we'll buy the new ones too because we're curious. ; ) That's probably true. I would buy the originals for completeness sake. But when I just had the VHS versions, I found that I just about always ended up watching the SEs. Now that I have the DVDs, I don't see why I would ever go back and watch the originals, apart from curiosity. I like the new Falcon lift off. I like the new Battle of Yavin stuff.

For me personally, now that I am watching the DVDs, they seem every bit as much "Star Wars" as the originals. The changes do not alter what I love about the series. Others will differ, of course, but for me the DVDs are the ultimate Star Wars experience.

Having new version doesn't destroy what I remember as a kid. I view the SEs/DVDs as the director's cut of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Lucas doesn't stand to lose from this, but he wants to be stubborn and insist that we can only see this new version of the films, and so he'll just have to put up with angry fans if that's what he wants.... He's been putting up with angry fans for years now, why would he be any different about this? :D

Kurgan
09-22-2004, 04:26 PM
Well the thing is, while the 2004 DVD's may be "closer to his original vision" (as he claims), the real reason he's releasing Star Wars on DVD now IS to make loads of money.

He said recently that he was planning to keep it off the format until AFTER Episode III. But because he thought he was going to lose money to piracy, he was releasing them now.

I remember when the party line from Lucasfilm was NO STAR WARS DVD UNTIL AFTER EPISODE III. But then we got TPM after 2 years (note that LD and VHS were released just like any normal film, it's the DVD that took forever). Then we got AOTC soon after the film, like any normal movie. Had the fans said nothing and Lucas got his way, we'd all still be waiting for a legal DVD version of ANY Star Wars film.

So let's think about that for a second:

0 - 1997-1999 - Will Star Wars ever be on DVD??
1st - 1999 - No Star Wars DvDs until late 2005.
2nd - 2001 - Okay you get TPM, but no OT until 2005.
3rd - 2002 - Here's AOTC right on time! No OT/2005.
4th - 2004 - Okay here's the OT set! Before Episode III...

Of course Lucas has been saying over and over with the OT DVD's that these are the "Special Editions." And the box itself doesn't say whether they are special editions or not (correct me if I'm wrong there anyone). But in reality these are NEW editions, with changes even from the SE's, which have been long rumored, but never officially confirmed until now (obviously, since anyone can pick the up and see or hear for themselves).

I'm glad Lucas is giving the fans what they want and releasing the movies on the best format available to consumers (ie: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD won't be standard and comparably affordable for many years). But, I'm perplexed why he doesn't just allow the original versions on the same disc like so many other director's have done. It would calm down the angry fans, and it would also serve the higher purpose of preservation and easy comparison purposes. If Lucas really wants to show how great the new versions are, this would be the perfect way to demonstrate. It would make his new versions look even better if you could do side by side comparisons... right?

I've heard rumors that the people doing the clean-up wanted more time, but were rushed. That would explain some of the supposed gaffes and ommissions in this release.

Why did Lucas release the Special Editions? Because he wanted us all to be thinking about Star Wars to raise hype and money for the Prequels. And why make the Prequels? Because Star Wars makes money and the fans eat up new material. The SE changes were just an opportunity for him to play around with special effects and see if he could tweak more money out of the franchise.

Likewise, with the two prequels so far having been bashed by critics and not being quite as overwhelmingly successful as he'd hoped (but still successful of course), he's pulling out all the stops to make sure that Star Wars goes out with a bang.

That means using these dvd's to raise money and hype for Episode III.

Notice how disc 4 contains Episode III hype material, and material hyping an Episode III game. What does that have to do with the OT? Nothing. He did the same thing awhile back with the last re-release of the SE Trilogy on VHS boxed set. He put in an "Episode II preview."

Star Wars is just his golden ticket he uses to promote his other products. So it IS about the money for Lucas.

The fact that he could make a little more money from just releasing the originals on DVD (for the first time) would fit perfectly into his scheme.

According to an article about the clean up process they have a full, digital archival master of the original films, that they can keep forever and use whenever they want. So unless Lucas hits the "delete" button and burns the reels they came from, he always has the option to release the originals with minimal cost to himself, since the vast majority of the work is already done. And as to extras there are enough documentaries and deleted scenes, etc that he wouldn't have to create anything new, but just pack them all onto the same discs.

Sides, if there's one thing that angry fans can agree on, it's that the OT is CLASSIC (a few people don't like ROTJ as much as the other two, but they still admit it's classic star wars). The perfect way to unite the fans and bring Lucas back into their good favor, but no...

Oh well.