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View Full Version : Assuming Stormtroopers are clones, why aren't the officers?


Nairb Notneb
09-16-2004, 11:20 AM
How many nights has this question kept you up late? I believe I have the answer. I feel it is safe to say that our beloved stormtroopers are in fact clones. Why then are the Imperial Officers then your regular Joes Imperial Citizens? Easy, they have not been altered, therefore they can lead. Also, with the clones/troopers the Kaminos have sped up their growth rate. This must have some physiological side effects since the troops cannot have a regular childhood. They spend the first 20 some years of their lives in half of the time. Can you imagine being twenty years old, but only being 10? Confused? Try being a clone bred only for combat. They are emotionless, physiologically drained drones, that is why you need "real" beings to lead them. That's my story. What's yours?

Kain
09-16-2004, 05:40 PM
Not all Stormtroopers are clones. Some are recruits and they raise in the ranks just like in the real military.

Vader523
09-16-2004, 06:05 PM
Yeah, since Palpatine knew he couldnt recruit enough people to start an entire empire, he decided to use the clones to begin it. After he got his army of clones and his Empire in power, more people wanted in and the recruiting started. But that theory you have does explain a lot and I have wondered that too! Thanks!

Nairb Notneb
09-17-2004, 03:02 AM
No, thank you. I'm glad I could help. I'm sure old Palpy recruited from the ranks of the Imperial worlds and into the army. What better way than to indoctrinate the worlds than to make them a part of the Empire. All dictatorships do it. Plus the people you conquer are expendable (from the dictator's point of view).

adillon
09-17-2004, 04:57 AM
doesn't leia hint at the 'clone-ness' of the stormtroopers when she asks luke if he's "too small" to be one?:confused:

Kryllith
09-17-2004, 05:19 AM
Could be... or it could just be that the one of the Empire's had size standards for recruiting and Luke didn't pass those standards.

Kryllith

Nairb Notneb
09-18-2004, 03:02 PM
I agree. If the Stormtroopers are also used as a form of "honor guard" then they definitely have height standards: or it could be that they are all physically the same.

TK-8252
09-18-2004, 03:31 PM
The Empire probably has some kinds of regulations on the size and build of recruits. You don't see any fat Stormtroopers after all. :p

Yeah, the Stormtroopers are both clones (from many sources, not just one person) and are recruited. Star Wars Insider has an article confirming this. I believe there was a draft as well.

The story about officers is not certain. I've heard a rumor that officers are always regular humans and never clones. Clones were always at the bottom of the pile as cannon fodder and were never promoted due to mental limitations. My personal theory is that the hosts who were selected to be cloned were placed as low-ranking officers. Kind of like how Jango Fett supervised the training of the Clone Troopers. Then those officers were promoted, and as more hosts were selected, they would take the old officer's place.

Maybe we'll discover the origins of Imperial Officers in Episode III.

Nairb Notneb
09-19-2004, 11:54 AM
So, there could be clones of Tarkin out there, or Piet, etc. I'll bye that for a dollar. The Kaminos also told Obi that the clones had been "modified" so that they were more docile than the original host to make them more docile and loyal. Now, you want generals that are loyal to you but you also want them to be mentally stable and these clones could possibly be unstable. If one or two or even a hundred come up as a "bad batch" you could simply dispose of them or use them as a "military distraction" in some campaign somewhere because here they are considered disposable and not "real" just better than battle droids.

Kurgan
09-22-2004, 01:46 AM
An obscure Star Wars magazine article in 1980 or '81 says that Stormtroopers are clones. This was completely ignored by everyone, including the EU authors until AOTC was made.

In the DVD commentary for AOTC, Lucas says that he intended for us to make the connection with the Stormtroopers having come from Jango and the Clonetroopers (it's during the "head bumping" scene where Slave 1 escapes from Obi-Wan on Kamino).

In ANH (I haven't checked the DVD to see if anything was done about this but so far nobody has mentioned it, so I doubt it has been changed) we can clearly see Stormtroopers that are different heights and have different sounding voices (and they don't all sound like the actor who played Jango or even Boba, though I find the idea of dubbing Boba's voice to match Jango's idiotic, since Boba didn't have his father's accent when his dad died, so why would he suddenly have it 20+ years later? and accents aren't genetic!).

The official retcon for the Stormtroopers (assuming Episode III doesn't spell it out for us of course) is that yes, the Stormtroopers are clones, but they may have introduced other clone "Sources" (besides Jango or Boba) after AOTC, and this explains the different heights and voices. OR, that at some period after AOTC they added recruites or conscripts to the Imperial army.

In the EU they clearly didn't know about the Stormtroopers being clones (Lucas changed his mind) because we see former stormtroopers that look nothing alike, and nobody goes "hey, it's Boba/Jango Fett!" when they see them. Likewise they aren't aging rapidly (as far as we know) and when the Rebels/New Republic DO encounter "clones" they are shocked as if this was something never before seen in the Galaxy, and they just got done beating down the Empire, so you'd think they would have figured it out by now if clones were in widespread use during Palpy's reign.

As to the officers, well they aren't clones, as far as we know.


I think before AOTC, we all had the impression that the Stormtroopers were the "regular army" of the Empire. The rank & file, the main troops, etc. The officers and naval troops were the minority.

Now, in AOTC we're given the idea that the Clone/Stormtroopers are actually an ELITE FORCE, and actually don't number that many (1.2 million soldiers for a GALACTIC ARMY?!). Granted, they may up production in the rest of the movies, but if it's just Kamino producing them, at their current rate of production they're only going to triple the number of troops by the time of the OT (1.2 million troops every 10 years, so 3.6 million by the time of ANH and they won't have any ready by the end of ROTJ, plus the original troops may be too old to fight, being aged 40 years in the 20 years between trilogies since they age doubly fast, making them equivalent to 60 year old veterans... so we're talking an Elite Force of about two and a half million Stormtroopers for the Empire, if it's just Kamino).

RebelScum!
09-22-2004, 05:20 AM
Well....clones would make stupid commanders....they are pretty much robots...lol...The Kamino peoples made them less independent...which isnt good for a commander because if your a leader and you tell your commander to go kick @$$...he will go and kick the enemies butt instead of shooting them....

Nairb Notneb
09-23-2004, 03:32 AM
All good points that I agree with and had hoped others would bring along for the ride, thanks. If you are the emperor, then you need as many storm troopers as possible in order to maintain control with fear. I'm sure many "factories" were constructed on other planets and other "originals templates" for soldiers were used and then mixed with the army, it only makes since. We also know that you can't possibly control the entire galaxy with an iron fist nor garrison every planet with these troops, you can't make enough of them fast enough, thus the need for the Death Star and the Imperial Navy. Space travel was so important to trade for the systems so the Imperials controlled interstellar space travel as much as possible with their Star Destroyers as well and they needed competent officers to do it and the Kamino clones can't do that because they are "less independent" as stated above. You need "real" beings to make an officer, not a copy.

pat_thetic
09-23-2004, 11:58 AM
He actually brain washed a lot of the people, like Dash Rendar's brother.

El Sitherino
09-23-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I find the idea of dubbing Boba's voice to match Jango's idiotic, since Boba didn't have his father's accent when his dad died, so why would he suddenly have it 20+ years later? and accents aren't genetic! actors man, actors.

Kurgan
09-23-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
actors man, actors.

That's it, Lucas needs to redub young Boba's lines in AOTC: The Special Edition!!!



(did you see that one coming? ;) )

DarthBuzzard
09-23-2004, 04:55 PM
Some troopers are clones, but they are cannon fodder because they were made from a copy of a copy. Make sense?

Anyways, only some were clones, but many were humans trained at the Imperial academys. SW databank has some stuff on this, too lazy to find any links :p

Darth Dex
09-23-2004, 05:44 PM
So it's like half and half?

Revlt Coranier
09-23-2004, 07:52 PM
I would think there are more recruis than clones, if there ARE any clone stormies, simply because as someone stated above ^ it would take a lot of planets producing a lot of clones to get enough stormtroopers. There would be far more stormies if they were made up of refular people that joined the Imperial Navy.

El Sitherino
09-23-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
That's it, Lucas needs to redub young Boba's lines in AOTC: The Special Edition!!!



(did you see that one coming? ;) ) that's just stupid, how can you make the guy that played jango sound like a 10 year old boy? :p

Nairb Notneb
09-24-2004, 08:42 AM
With all of the other "changes" GL made I'm surprised he didn't do that.

Kurgan
09-24-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
that's just stupid, how can you make the guy that played jango sound like a 10 year old boy? :p

Computers man, computers! Or just find a kid who speaks with the same accent.

Revan Solo
09-25-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
How many nights has this question kept you up late? I believe I have the answer. I feel it is safe to say that our beloved stormtroopers are in fact clones. Why then are the Imperial Officers then your regular Joes Imperial Citizens? Easy, they have not been altered, therefore they can lead. Also, with the clones/troopers the Kaminos have sped up their growth rate. This must have some physiological side effects since the troops cannot have a regular childhood. They spend the first 20 some years of their lives in half of the time. Can you imagine being twenty years old, but only being 10? Confused? Try being a clone bred only for combat. They are emotionless, physiologically drained drones, that is why you need "real" beings to lead them. That's my story. What's yours? A lot of clones died in the clone wars. The Emperor recruited new soldiers.

TK-8252
09-25-2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Revan Solo
A lot of clones died in the clone wars. The Emperor recruited new soldiers.

And also made new clones.

Nairb Notneb
09-27-2004, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Revan Solo
A lot of clones died in the clone wars. The Emperor recruited new soldiers.
Yes many clone troopers did die in the Clone War, and during that war the Officers were the Jedi with a few clones trained as nco's and field officers only (hence the color markings on the battle armor). The officers of the Empire were not Jedi for some reason (go figure). The Empire had a void to fill (at its birth) and needed military minds for Admirals and Generals, etc so Palpatine invented the governing system of the New Order and out governors, or Moff's in charge of sectors, like Grand Moff Tarkin.

adillon
09-27-2004, 11:39 AM
by the time of ANH the empire was recruiting new members ... after all, wasn't luke mad at uncle owen because he wasn't allowed to go to the academy like his friend biggs?

TK-8252
09-27-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by adillon
by the time of ANH the empire was recruiting new members ... after all, wasn't luke mad at uncle owen because he wasn't allowed to go to the academy like his friend biggs?

You think that meant the Imperial academy? Just later in that scene Luke says and I quote "I hate the Empire".

adillon
09-27-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
You think that meant the Imperial academy?
yeah, i do ... according to the star wars databank:

Darklighter was able to live out Luke's long-held dream of joining the Academy. Skywalker, however, had to stay behind on his uncle's moisture farm. When Biggs returned to Tatooine, he was a changed man. He opened Luke's eyes to the true nature of the Empire, and confided in Luke that he had defected from the Empire to join the Rebel Alliance.

TK-8252
09-27-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by adillon
yeah, i do ... according to the star wars databank:

Darklighter was able to live out Luke's long-held dream of joining the Academy. Skywalker, however, had to stay behind on his uncle's moisture farm. When Biggs returned to Tatooine, he was a changed man. He opened Luke's eyes to the true nature of the Empire, and confided in Luke that he had defected from the Empire to join the Rebel Alliance.

When did Luke talk to Biggs? It must have been after the scene with Luke and his aunt and uncle eating at the homestead and before Luke said "I hate the Empire".

Kurgan
09-28-2004, 03:18 AM
There are a couple of deleted scenes where Luke talks to Biggs at length about the Empire and the Academy. These are NOT found in any released version of the film.

But you can view them on the "Star Wars: Behind the Magic" CD-Roms (released back in 1998), and download clips off the internet (Jedinet.com has some).

I re-watched these again recently and it sounds to me almost like this is the OT era's version of the "national guard."

I can't help but get the Vietnam War reference, but basically Biggs' is at the Academy and he says how "The Empire isn't going to draft me.." etc.

I'm not sure as the details, but apparently going to the Academy itself isn't a guarentee of helping the Empire, but the Empire perhaps recruites from there (or drafts, as Biggs says). Hence why many of the young starpilots are leaving the Academy and secretly joining the Rebellion.

One interpretation is how the modern military works in the US for a lot of people. People don't join because they want to risk their lives or fight wars. Rather, they join because they want to "make money for college" or "get some practical experience" etc. or out of some sense of civic duty to one's country. So these guys who join for those or similar reasons don't necessarily agree with the Empire or the wars it's fighting (in this case against its own citizens or helpless neighboring systems) so they don't want their skills to be utilized for those ends.

We should remember that the Empire is basically the government of the SW galaxy. Joining the Rebellion is thus an act of treason.

Now there's some doubt in my mind as to whether or not Tatooine is actually part of the Empire (it's apparently not part of the Old Republic), but it could be that it is and due to corruption and lack of strategic value its just largely ignored, and thus run by gangsters and criminals instead.

adillon
09-28-2004, 04:34 AM
true, it doesn't explicitly state that it was the imperial academy, but it's very easy to deduce that from what the databank has to say about biggs.

@ kurgan ... don't forget that people may join the military for that 'sense of adventure'. the television advertisements flooding the airwaves these days, especially from the army and navy, glorify the armed forces to one degree or another. it's a very timid form of propaganda ... but these days it's called advertisement. :p maybe the empire utilized similar means to recruit new members, only showing what they wanted to show, making the empire seem like the career of a lifetime where one can do some good for the rest of the galaxy.

Nairb Notneb
09-28-2004, 05:52 PM
If you have ever listened to the radio drama version of ANH it goes into this scene of Biggs and Luke's conversation of Tashi Station in Anchor Head. This is all in the data bank on the Star Wars web site too. Biggs tells Luke that after graduation (I believe) he and some others are going to join the rebellion. Biggs has graduated from an academy and Luke wants to go to the academy. Luke's portion is documented in ANH, Uncle Owen won't let him go, remember? The point being that an acadamey is for officer and specialty training, not regulars. In order to be a pilot one must be an officer, thus one can go to the academy to become a pilot and/or officer just like Biggs did. Thus another question comes to mind, are the TIE pilots clones?

TK-8252
09-28-2004, 06:03 PM
No, Tatooine isn't under Imperial law. It's part of the Outer Rim, which is not run by a galactic government. Tatooine is run by the Hutts. Yes there is Imperial presence on Tatooine at times (such as the Sandtroopers seaching Mos Eisley for the droids), but that's like how American troops are over in Iraq (and pretty much every country in the world). Which makes you wonder... why didn't all those citizens who disliked the Empire just move to Outer Rim planets? :p

And just a BTW, the Rebel Alliance is technically a terrorist organization. It just doesn't seem that way since they're the "good guys." ;)

Mike Windu
09-28-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Computers man, computers! Or just find a kid who speaks with the same accent.

No Kurgan! No more ideas! Leave the movies alone!


:D

Kurgan
09-29-2004, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Mike Windu
No Kurgan! No more ideas! Leave the movies alone!


:D

Riddick says: Ain't me you gotta worry 'bout...

Kurgan
09-29-2004, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by adillon
@ kurgan ... don't forget that people may join the military for that 'sense of adventure'. the television advertisements flooding the airwaves these days, especially from the army and navy, glorify the armed forces to one degree or another. it's a very timid form of propaganda ... but these days it's called advertisement. :p maybe the empire utilized similar means to recruit new members, only showing what they wanted to show, making the empire seem like the career of a lifetime where one can do some good for the rest of the galaxy.

True. I have those ads from the 80's stuck in my mind with the "be all you can be" and "save money for college" ads. But you're right.

***

As far as why people didn't just move to the Outer Rim territories, there's a couple of factors probably at work:

1) Too afraid. In other dictatorships of the world they've gone out of their way to stop people from leaving. And people did risk their lives to escape Nazi Germany and the USSR for example, but many were afraid of getting killed leaving (though the fear of staying and disappearing in the night was obvoiusly stronger).

2) Outer Rim planets were pretty crappy. Sure, it sucks to live under a dictatorship, but maybe the Dictator has a good health care plan or a nice transportation system. But maybe the crime lords don't. Or you end up living on a dust bowl planet like Tatooine which isn't very pleasant.

3) Too Costly. Sure they have hyperdrive to fly all over the galaxy, but perhaps this is a luxury that only criminals, the rich and leaders can afford to do. If transporation is restricted this might make even more sense. If the majority of the Galaxy is controlled by the Empire you have to go a long way before you can find someplace that is safe, and they still might come after you. Perhaps there are long lines of people waiting to get tickets for illegal transports out of the Empire and ticket prices are at a premium.

4) Political reasons. Perhaps the Outer Rim people generally resent the "immigrants & refugees" from the Empire, and this tension makes moving large numbers of people to the Outer Rim unfeasible. Some planets might even reguarly blockade, shield, or shoot down ships that come in from the Empire to their space to discourage this kind of thing.

***

As to the Rebels being terrorists, yes I know the whole "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument. And I know that these days people tend to label "what they do to us" as terrorism and what happens to our enemies as the work of "freedom fighters," etc. I tend to identify terrorism is the targetting of civilians with violence for political gain. At least where the movies are concerned, we don't witness the Rebels doing that. They are guerrilla fighters (non-conventional soldiers), and this is described as a civil war. They engage the military of the Empire in combat, basically.

The Empire on the other hand, targets its own citizens for political expediency or to cover for their own crimes (Alderaan, Luke's aunt & uncle, the Jawas, officers that Vader doesn't like, etc).

Granted, in real life wars and civil wars are not cut and dried black & white affairs with one side being completely virtuous and the other completely barbaric (in WWII the Allies committed plenty of atrocities of their own and soon after, as did the Axis powers), but Lucas has always described his tale as Good vs. Evil in the classic mythological and comic book/serial sense.

adillon
09-29-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
When did Luke talk to Biggs? It must have been after the scene with Luke and his aunt and uncle eating at the homestead and before Luke said "I hate the Empire".
there's also this little tidbit of info under luke's profile in the star wars databank ...

Luke honed his piloting skills alongside Biggs in Tatooine's infamous Beggar's Canyon, racing his T-16 skyhopper. Biggs and Luke often spoke of joining the Imperial Academy. Despite his dreams, Luke was not allowed to attend. His uncle needed him on the farm, and so when Biggs went away to the Academy, Luke was stranded on Tatooine.

could you imagine how things would've been different had biggs not defected to the rebellion and luke had the opportunity to attend the academy?

Vagabond
09-29-2004, 12:34 PM
Or, what if Biggs hadn't defected and got assigned to the Death Star squadron? Then he'd have fought against Luke at the Battle of Yavin. Talk about major internal conflict - of course, he probably wouldn't have realized that he'd just vaporized his childhood buddy :cool:

Nairb Notneb
09-30-2004, 06:43 AM
The Rebels had to have been labeled as terrorists by the Empire's propaganda. By the truest definition (as stated above) the Rebels as depicted in the movies were not terrorists however but merely rebels because they fought the government and attacked military targets and did not incite "terror" as a means of seeking freedom from the empire. The Empire was more of a terrorist entity than the rebels were. It was a dictatorship. It ruled with terror through the New Order. It used the faceless army of the Stormtroopers to install fear into its citizenry. It also used the fear of instant death and destruction through the Death Star (which is why it had to be instantly destroyed).

Being an intelligent group however, the empire knew that indoctrination would also assist in its control of the galaxy, thus the Imperial Academy. Make the people one of you and you can control them. Keep them poor and dependant on the government and they will need you so badly they will do what you want because they have no choice even join your army, thus the academy again. Clones are needed for the initial armies installment and to help maintain control of the ranks, but if the empire ceased their "fabrication" then they most likely lost control of their army and then lost control of the galaxy. I believe they stopped making clones. If they had, then they could have defeated the rebels.

Vagabond
09-30-2004, 07:58 AM
It's hard for me to imagine that the Kaminoans would willingly continue to supply clones for the Empire, once the Republic was overthrown. In any event, I see Kamino as a target by either the new Empire for occupation and forced continued production of clones, or the the Rebellion for destruction to stop the production of clones.

Since we never see any Kaminoans in the original trilogy, one might surmise that the Kaminoans didn't throw their lot in with the Rebels. Still, I do find it hard to believe that the Rebels would slaughter the Kaminoans to stop the clones. Perhaps the Rebels do attack, catching the Empire off guard, and rather than let the cloning facility fall into the hands of the Rebels, the Empire scuttles every cloning facility in the face of the surprise Rebel advance?

Speculation, true, but I've always wondered what happened to end the Clone Wars, and why they weren't simply seen as the initial stages of the Imperial revolution and the ensuring Rebellion. Unless there is some clear demarcation of peace between the combat of the Clone Wars and the start of hostilities during the Rebellion, in my mind they are all part of the same conflict.

If it's a penny for your thoughts, that's my two cents - keep the change.

Jan Gaarni
09-30-2004, 08:39 AM
There could be another explanation.

The Empire learns that the Kaminoans are not going to cooperate with them anymore but lend themselfs to the rebels, and are being crushed by the Empire. Either the Empire destroyes the facilities, or the Kaminoans do it themself to prevent the Empire of exploiting the technology any further.

Nairb Notneb
09-30-2004, 08:40 AM
2 cents? Well worth a buck and a half my friend!

I would speculate that the Empire took control of all cloning facilities/technologies as soon as possible in order to control them. The only thing that might have prevented this was a Jedi sabotage job on the facilities (before they completely fell prey to the Jedi purge) preventing any immediate clone construction thus creating the Empire's need for recruitment of armed forces. This too is speculation and would be difficult to fit into the plot of RotS I would think.

Ockniel
10-02-2004, 04:43 PM
okay, this isi not so confusing, cause they look different :(

but, what gets me, is the clone trooper generals, they ARE the same, why?

Nairb Notneb
10-03-2004, 05:11 AM
Good question Okniel. I believe that all field troops need leaders don't you? Even with advanced technological communication devices, leaders have to be in the field with their troops, you can't lead a battle from a bunker. At the time of the Clone Armies creation, the Republic had no military what so ever. All they had was a small police force of the Jedi, basically. They had to use what they had at the time, clones. The Jedi were the main generals in the field. During the Battle of Geonosis, Yoda was the main General of the army, then Windo. The other Jedi took lead of other battalions and the clones then took lead of smaller squads themselves. But all major battle decisions were made by Jedi, even Padawan Anakin seemed to outrank the clone officers when he began barking orders from the gunship as did the Senator from Naboo.

Kurgan
10-03-2004, 05:56 AM
All I know is, they will be having to do massive replacements of the Clonetrooper ranks for all those they lose in the Clone Wars.

1.2 million soldiers is a ridiculously low number for a Galactic Army, period. And unfortunately, that IS the number of individual soldiers, according to the canonical AOTC novelisation.

My theory was that the "Grand Army of the Republic" was just rhetoric by Palpatine and he's including in that statement any future recruites, etc of the eventual Imperial Armed Forces. Ie: the military buildup.

Or perhaps they will start pumping out clone factories on lots of planets (hard to do if the Clones are supposed to be a secret from everyone so that they are shocked by Clones in the post-ROTJ EU). Or they will change the clone process so that they can make them faster.

After all, the Jango Clones are going to be old men in hafl the time as normal humans would be since they have 2x growth acceleration. Unless there is some magic "off switch" that makes them age normally once they reach "maturity" (at 10 years).

How long will the Jango clone stock last? He's dead now, but Boba is alive. Or it could be from multiple "templates" of other people, etc.

We'll see if any of this is spelled out in Episode III and the accompanying canonical materials. Should be interesting.

Nairb Notneb
10-03-2004, 12:04 PM
1.2 million troops is a mere pittance of a squad for an army. With the speed at which the Separatists should be able to shell out battle droids, especially after seeing the factory scene in AOTC, 1.2 million troops is way to small of a force. That is also to small of a force to be able to control the galaxy, much less be feared by. It would be very difficult to control a system with that amount depending on the population (taking Earths population of 6 billion as typical).

primalunderdog
10-03-2004, 06:23 PM
I have the encyclopedia and it says that the empire clones the better soldiers.(the real soldiers from an academy)The older clones from episode 2 are most likely dead.If you don't know by now the Republic is the Empire,they just collasped and the emperor took over.

Shok_Tinoktin
10-08-2004, 10:43 AM
The batches of Kaminoan clones are not released only every ten years. If that was true, everyone of the Jango clones would be the same age, they are clearly not. They start subsequent batches before the previous batch is finished. Sort of an assembly line kind of thing.

Vagabond
10-08-2004, 10:55 AM
I tend to agree. I think there's always several batches baking in the ovens, all at different stages of development. We saw as much in Attack of the Clones.

Nairb Notneb
10-13-2004, 09:26 AM
Yes we did. We saw mature clones and we saw little Jango's running around "learning" to be good little soldiers. If they are living at an accelerated growth rate then their shelf life is quite short. New batches would need to be grown often.

Lieutenant_kettch
10-13-2004, 09:37 AM
good point, though i would think that they could genetically alter the clones to return to normal growth rate after they reached maturity...

Kurgan
10-13-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
The batches of Kaminoan clones are not released only every ten years. If that was true, everyone of the Jango clones would be the same age, they are clearly not. They start subsequent batches before the previous batch is finished. Sort of an assembly line kind of thing.

That must be true. In the movie we see adult clones, basically ready to go (the 200,000 Lama Su mentioned), and the child clones (about Boba's age) are probably the 1,000,000 "on the way." There are fetal clones also shown in some scenes. I hazard to guess that these may not be part of the actual batch ordered by "Jedi Master Sifo Dias" but just clones they are creating in general, other orders, or research. Then again, who knows, in 10 years they may have another 1.2 million ready. Palpatine may be placing new orders now that the floodgates are open or demanding they find new ways to speed up production.

However, if what I just said above is correct, we shouldn't see any new Clones ready yet in Episode III (supposedly taking place a scant 2-3 years after AOTC), unless there were other cloning facilities we didn't know about or they discovered a way to speed up production.

Nairb Notneb
10-14-2004, 03:31 AM
What we saw were mature combat ready clones about ten actual years old and no more because the order was placed ten years ago at that time. Meaning that in clone years (like dog years) they were then relatively about twenty years old. Then the younger clones that looked like Boba were about 5 years old in reality and were about 10 years old in clone years. Then, as stated by Kurgan above, we saw a third state of clone, the fetus clone, and we saw a lot of them. In ten years these will be ready for combat. That would put these ready almost halfway between AOTC and ANH meaning that by the time ANH happened those fetus clones would be about twenty years old when Luke and Han are running through the Death Star, but in clone years they will be a ripe old age of 40, seasoned veterans. Some of them could still be in service, possibly. Assuming that is that they haven't figured out a way to slow down the aging process once the clones have reached combat maturity levels, which from a soldier manufacturing point of view would be a great selling point.

Pho3nix
10-26-2004, 08:05 AM
I think i saw a "clone" facility in an old Star Wars comic years ago. I don't remember much about it, but i do remember tanks (sort of like Bacta tanks, only without water) where they had identical white faced humans inside. :trooper:

*Yoinked*
10-26-2004, 09:31 AM
You mean Spaarti Clone Cubicles, or something like that, yes, in the EU, the Emporer has several cloneing things locked away in Mount TantisTM (;)) and they are used by Thrawn, and by Joorus C'boath...

-Adam G

Lieutenant_kettch
10-26-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Adam G
You mean Spaarti Clone Cubicles, or something like that, yes, in the EU, the Emporer has several cloneing things locked away in Mount TantisTM (;)) and they are used by Thrawn, and by Joorus C'boath...

-Adam G


oooh, glorius c'boath

Nairb Notneb
10-27-2004, 03:28 AM
Yes, they have them in the EU, but the EU is not canon, exactly, but sort of. Not really. Heir to the Empire was one of the first EU books to touch on clones and it did a great job I think until it got to the clone of Luke at the end, that was not the best part of the series in my opinion.

The problem with the clones in Heir to the Empire was that they were basically "instant clones" that took little time to make and were already trained. I found the technology hard to believe. If the Emperor had that type of tech, even a prototype, why would he hide it? He would have used it to mass produce an instant army. Unless there is something that I am forgetting about them.

Shok_Tinoktin
10-27-2004, 10:43 AM
You forgot that Thrawn realized he could insta-clone by using ysalimari. If you try to insta-clone otherwise, the resulting clones are insane. I believe it takes ten years to make a sane clone, but I could be mistaken (been a while since I read them). The emperor did not realize that he could offset the effect using ysalimari, so it was not especially effective for him to use the Spaarti cylinders.

Lieutenant_kettch
10-27-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
You forgot that Thrawn realized he could insta-clone by using ysalimari. If you try to insta-clone otherwise, the resulting clones are insane. I believe it takes ten years to make a sane clone, but I could be mistaken (been a while since I read them). The emperor did not realize that he could offset the effect using ysalimari, so it was not especially effective for him to use the Spaarti cylinders.

and what is wrong with having billions of insane storm/clone troopers??? they already seem a little wacked to me

Jan Gaarni
10-27-2004, 01:51 PM
Yeah, having millions of insane people with a blaster in their hand sounds like a good idea. :D

Nairb Notneb
10-29-2004, 02:35 AM
I knew I had forgotten something. And good point about having insane troops. Maybe it would improve their accuracy! You know, when Obi-Wan told Luke about these last shots being too accurate for Sand People. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", shhaa, right! When was the last time that he saw the old stormies shoot at something?

Shok_Tinoktin
10-29-2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
You know, when Obi-Wan told Luke about these last shots being too accurate for Sand People. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", shhaa, right! When was the last time that he saw the old stormies shoot at something?

I have a theory about this. I believe that they are not innacurate. They just aim for the walls. If you notice, a lot of the walls explode when hit. This gives the stormtroopers the ability to do splash damage with a blaster. Pretty clever if you ask me.

Nairb Notneb
10-29-2004, 02:56 AM
Clever in some cases, but when you are in combat on the forest moon of Endor and there are no walls, its a bad strategy. Just hit your targets men.

Jet Black
10-29-2004, 08:12 AM
Very intersting discussion :)

I'm of no particular opinion of whether Stormtroopers are clones or not, either is fine with me. However there's something that I haven't seen mentioned so far that I thought I'd bring up.

As Dex says to Obi-Wan in AOTC: "These Kaminoins are cloners... damn good ones." Or something to that regard.

Dex doesn't say they're the ONLY cloners in the galaxy, they just happen to be good ones. After Palpatine takes over and beats down the Republic, there's no reason he couldn't start ordering clones from numerous other producers to fill the need for a large number of Stormtroopers. Then if Kamino resigns to help, there's still numerous other facilities willing to offer their aid.

If the OT movies are any indication, Stormtroopers don't seem to be nearly as capable as their Republic counterparts... they fall to the ground dead when someone sneazes on them. Maybe this points to the fact that they are lower-quality non-Kaminoin clones ;)

Nairb Notneb
10-29-2004, 09:09 AM
originaly posted by Jet Black
Dex doesn't say they're the ONLY cloners in the galaxy, they just happen to be good ones.
Very good point there Jet. They do seem to "degrade" as time goes on. Well, every time you make a copy of something it is not as good as the original, there are flaws, cloning may have these same principles. One solution would be to use a different template, or genetic source on a regular basis, but then you would consistently get a different type of clone, different versions, a different line.

The Kaminos, from Dex's words, were obviously not the only cloners, just among the best. I'm sure Palpatine could have hired others to produce more troops. The Kaminos could have kept producing Jango clones I suppose, and these other producers could have made different troops, and given enough variety in producing companies there would have been enough different looking clones to have twenty or so different looking standard storm troopers. The Empire could have had a standard physical spec that they needed to fit, height, weight, strength, age, etc. and then the cloners just made them to order.

Freaky.

TK-8252
10-29-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
When was the last time that he saw the old stormies shoot at something?

Tantive IV is the best example.

But my question is this: why didn't they just clone Boba Fett instead of choosing random people? The Clone Troopers seem very superior to Stormtroopers, and Boba is almost exactly like Jango, considering they're clones.

Guess it's just what happens when the clone host selection process turns more political than strategic. :(

Jet Black
10-29-2004, 06:51 PM
Is it possible that Palpy didn't even know who was chosen for the clones?

He could have just said: "Go, choose someone and make a clone army."

Then when Dooku is killed in Episode III, the knowledge of who the clone was died with him... and when it came time to make Stormtroopers, Palpatine just had someone else pick a (poor)host.

Shok_Tinoktin
10-29-2004, 11:41 PM
Only problem is that the Kaminoans know that Jango is the source of their clones, so the secret does not die with Dooku.

Jan Gaarni
10-30-2004, 03:35 AM
Perhaps the knowledge dies with the Kaminoans aswell.

It would make sense to stage an assault on the production facilities of the Republic.

Jet Black
10-30-2004, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Perhaps the knowledge dies with the Kaminoans aswell.

It would make sense to stage an assault on the production facilities of the Republic.

Star Wars: Battlefront put a mission on Kamino, so that could be true ;)

EDIT: This just came to mind - Who makes the vehicles/weapons/armour that the Clone Army uses? If they are made by the Kaminoans, then they are probably still around for the OT since the vehicles are similar.

Whatever system produces the vehicles for the Clone Army also produces them for the Empire - I'm sure the similarities weren't a coincidence.

Kurgan
10-30-2004, 05:37 AM
Okay, to clear up something, the "canon" issue is one that's debated a lot on the internet, but here's how it breaks down:

Originally it was like a hierarchy. The movies were always first, then the novelisations, screenplays and radio dramas of the movies. That was the "canon" everthing official below that was "quasi-canon" or "lower canon" so that was all of the EU.

Then we got "Infinities" comics and "Star Wars Tales" which were "what if" stories and speculation, so those were deemed as basically non-canon. Everything else was put in the above. About the only other "non-canon" thing we had was the Star Wars Holiday Special, but this is supposition based on Lucas supposedly saying he wanted to burn or destroy all copies of it if he could (after it flopped on its first and only public showing back in 1978). But parts of the holiday special have appeared in other official materials, so it's not all a waste.

NOW, like in the last year, it's been changed to this new system:

"G-Level Canon" which is everything created by Lucas himself. And then "C-Level Canon" which is everything else, all the liscensed material.

Now as to the contradiction thing, there's various opinions on that. Some people say well if it contradicts a higher source, you just ignore it. Others say you must try to find a compromise or "fix" (retcon) for it. Or if you can't, then you just ignore the parts that contradict.

This is a tricky process though.

For example, in AOTC we have Palpatine saying that the Republic is 1,000 years old. This contradicts the Tales of the Jedi comics which have the Jedi running around in the Old Republic 5,000 years ago. This would be fine, just ignore the comic, but in another canon movie source, Obi-Wan makes it sound like the Republic has been around for "over a thousand generations." So we either have to assume that one of them is lying, that generations = 1 year (which is hard to swallow, but not impossible) or other proposed ideas (just move the Tales of the Jedi events up so that they just occur in the early days of the Republic, 1,000 years before TPM; or assume there was a "re-founding" of the Republic at some period upon which some people counted the age as only being 1,000 years like Palpy and others like Obi-Wan reconned it older by the old dating system).

And there's the NJO. In the NJO, aliens from another galaxy invade the Star Wars galaxy and everyone is shocked that anything could come from outside. Supposedly there is a barrier that stops hyperdrive ships from leaving the galaxy, so nobody has done it successfully. But in AOTC we learn that apparently intergalactic travel HAS occured. The Banking Clan is called the InterGalactic Banking Clan in the official materials, which we could just say was in error, but then the Jedi Archive shows the mapping of two other galaxies besides the SW main galaxy and Kamino itself lies just outside the main galaxy, and Obi-Wan has little trouble getting there.

So some would say ignore the whole NJO because the premise itself is ridiculous. Others would probably say, well maybe the barrier showed up later, or it was just a rumor, or something else happened to make people stop traveling out there. But, anyway, you see the problem...

The "canon" policies are dealt with by Lucas and his companies. Obviously Lucas himself just does whatever he wants in the stories, but as far as the overall continuity is concerned, that's how it goes.

Usually in these discussions we take what happens in games with a grain of salt. Sure, story elements and characters can be official, but stuff the player does can't be, and stats like how much damage a ship takes and how much ammo a gun has, that sort of thing can't work.

Another problem is that a lot of lazy EU writers have used the Star Wars RPG's to get their info from. Games are made with fun, challenge and balance in mind, so they need not be accurate with regard to "real" Star Wars. But if they keep ripping off the game stats, and making them official, it causes problems.

Examples: the sizes of various ships and battlestations in the games vs. estimates of their sizes in the movies; Jedi/Sith abilities, size and scope of the galaxy, etc.

Where the "movies" are concerned, there's another a little confusing point. There's various versions of each movie. We have changes Lucas made to Star Wars after the first showing like cutting scenes and redubbing dialouge. Then in 1981 he adds "Episode IV: A New Hope" to it. Then we have various audio changes that occur between the theatrical releases and the VHS/Laserdisk releases. These were changed AGAIN when the "THX Enhanced Editions" were released. Then we have the Special Editions, and then the new DVD's. When AOTC was shown in theaters there were THREE VERSIONS of the film shown simultaneously, the shorter, differently framed "IMAX Experience" version (which was kick ass btw), the version shown in select Digital theaters across the country with a couple of added/edited scenes, and the regular theatrical cut that most people saw. When TPM and AOTC came out on DVD, they were further edited a bit (TPM got one new scene and AOTC got the Digital cut with a couple of very minor edits). Both movies also got "deleted scenes" with redone special effects too.

Basically the question has been answered a bit, which is that the "Special Editions are the way that Lucas sees the films today" so I guess they are the highest canon. Episode IV, V, VI, I, II, and when III comes out, that's the highest canon.

And if Lucas changes the movies, the newest version is the one that's the "most canon" or something.

Also I learned recently that one of the Ewok Adventure TV movies was originally shown in theaters (outside the US). So does it count as one of "the movies"? On a literal level it would, but most of us assume when the liscense people are talking about "canon" and say "the movies" they mean Episodes I-VI, nothing else.

Kurgan
10-30-2004, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I have a theory about this. I believe that they are not innacurate. They just aim for the walls. If you notice, a lot of the walls explode when hit. This gives the stormtroopers the ability to do splash damage with a blaster. Pretty clever if you ask me.

There's a few explanations for this:

1) Character shields. The good guys can't be killed by every stormtrooper they see can they? So like in all movies, they miss or only give superficial wounds.

2) All the Good Marksmen were off duty. The good guys just luck out and happen to run into the bad shots. The bored guards on the Death Star, etc. The guys who slaughtered the Jawas and killed Luke's aunt & uncle were great shots, but most of their shooting was done offscreen.

3) Different weapons. The Tatooine death squad had all kinds of long rifles and stuff, perhaps better for sniping. Most of the troopers we see have just basic machine guns.

4) Following orders. On the Death Star, the Rebels are "allowed to escape" at a certain point, so the troopers must not be trying to kill them. On Endor maybe they also just wanted to capture them rather than kill them. This isn't a perfect explanation, but it works in some of the cases. Troopers were able to nail R2D2, shoot Leia's arm, etc.

Or, it may simply be that Good stormtroopers are rare. Maybe they just didn't need to have the same quality of training in the 20 years since the Clone Wars. And they didn't take the Rebels seriously enough (or didn't have time to do the proper training for the new clones, if they are even still clones by this point) until it was too late.

I do like the suggestion of budget cuts (might explain the armor quality too) or going with less quality producers.

Kurgan
10-30-2004, 06:20 AM
One more point about the "leader clones."

We know that the Kaminoeans have the technology to make the clones more or less "independent," since we have Clone Officers and Boba.

So what would stop them from making all the Imperial Officers clones?

Conscripts tend to make crappy troops, as history has shown. Sure, indoctrinating the people as officers and making them "one" with the state is a good idea for propaganda purposes, but difficult of the majority of the people hate you and just pretend to support you to avoid being killed or tortured.

As Vagabond mentioned, it will be interesting to see if there is an actual peace and "break" between the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War, or, if they are really just the same war, with a new emphasis...

El Sitherino
10-30-2004, 10:07 PM
I was under the impression the growth acceleration was just some kind of chamber or something they had the clones in. *shrugs*

Kurgan
10-31-2004, 06:00 AM
Doubtful, since we see the Clones up and about, dressed and doing things as kids and as adults.

The Cloning methods describes in the Expanded Universe differ sharply from the methods shown in AOTC.

Instead of "birthing" them in a glass jar and then having them grow up as a normal human, only 2x as fast, with normal training, etc. and reduced independence if the cloner chooses, the EU clones are grown in "Spaarti" cylinders (looks a lot like a Bacta tank as was stated) to adulthood in a very short period (like 1-3 years), then given a "flash brain imprint" of the personality, memories and training of some adult donor (like an Imperial Officer or Jedi). And these EU clones give off a weird "sense" in the Force, have an extra "double vowel" in their name, and go insane (unless grow with a Ysalamari, so they are completely outside the Force, thus making them give off an even weirder aura in the Force). In the EU these clones were based off of various templates, and used by the Emperor to "transfer his soul" into the bodies and "possess" them like some demon.

The Kamino style clones in AOTC can be tailored in some ways, such as the independance thing (to make them easier to "control") and the growth acceleration thing (Boba Fett was created without either "feature").

Nairb Notneb
11-01-2004, 09:11 AM
Wow! That was a mouthful, but I'm glad it was posted. Like I said, it had been a long time since I read those books.

So it can be said then that there are at least two methods of making clones. The Kamino Process, in which a high quality product is created at the price of time. Then there is the Spaarti Cylinder method which produces clones "quickly" and with a copy of the originals memories, but it is of poorer quality.

If you tool Dex's words at saying that the Kamino's were good cloners then by these to methods he was right.

ronbrothers
11-12-2004, 11:25 PM
A thought about whether or not Tatooine was part of the Empire...

I've not read anything definative (EU or other), but it is conceivable that it could have been part of the Empire by the time of episode 4. Before the fall of the Republic it is clear that it was not. But I'm not so sure that it would have remained so after the rise of the Empire. I equate the Outer Rim to third world countries. The Empire would have little interest in micro managing those worlds, but would not resist the temptation to grab them and tax them.

Shok_Tinoktin
11-12-2004, 11:31 PM
^^^^^^
Yeah, thats about the same conclusion that I had drawn. An Empire would be assumed to be imperialistic, so it is likely that they would take control of these areas. Especially considering that there was so much anti-Empire feelings in the outer rim. Why would they care so much about what happened in the Republic/Empire unless one was a threat to them.

Revan Solo
11-13-2004, 04:41 AM
You know clone troopers aren't very clever. They were not as long as other people in school.
So the empire has to take normal people for officers!

TK-8252
11-13-2004, 10:40 AM
From the official StarWars.com Databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/tatooine/index.html
Tatooine rests in the distant Outer Rim, beyond the reaches of Republic and Imperial law.

The Outer Rim planets aren't part of the Empire. The Empire only controls the Core planets, as the Republic did. Tatooine is still controlled by the Hutts. When we see Imperials patrolling on Tatooine in ANH, that's the same as the U.S. having troops deployed in countries all around the world.

primalunderdog
11-13-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Revan Solo
You know clone troopers aren't very clever. They were not as long as other people in school.
So the empire has to take normal people for officers! thats not true,they were just as smart as there host,they were just always in a combat state,bred for combat.They were pretty smart,just all they cared about was war.

TK-8252
11-13-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by primalunderdog
thats not true,they were just as smart as there host

Umm, no, they were as smart as they were taught to be. When you clone someone their memory is not copied too. Just genetics.

If a clone was as smart as its host, there would be baby Jangos running around shooting people, flying on jetpacks, and collecting bounties. :D

Nairb Notneb
11-16-2004, 01:12 AM
I agree. All that was copied was Jango's genetic potential. The rest was up to the training and the experiences gained by each individual clone from his test tube creation day/birth.

Kurgan
01-21-2005, 11:35 AM
As far as Tatooine is concerned, it's definately not part of the Republic, at least not during TPM.

Shmi says "the Republic doesn't exist out here" (in reply to Padme's statement about the Republic's anti-slavery laws that conflict with the presence of slaves on Tatooine). Additionally Panaka says that the planet is "controlled by the Hutts" referring to them as "gangsters."

Now there are corrupt politicians in the Senate, for example, but Panaka's statements again support the idea that Tatooine is not a part of the Republic proper.

As to the Empire, good analogy about US troops being stationed all over the world, not just in official parts of the US.

Also recall though that the United States isn't just all "States." There are also districts, commonwealths, protectorates and territories, each with varying degrees of independance/sovereignty and "privelage" (vs. States). So like you have Gaum, the Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, etc. etc.

Now, here's a bit of info that I discovered recently about Tatooine in the Empire...


On the "Behind the Magic" CD-ROM (released in 1998 by LucasArts) there are some deleted scenes from ANH featured. One of these is of Luke talking with his friends at Anchorhead (is that 'Toschi Station,' that he was whining about earlier? not sure) and they are looking through some macrobinoculars (Luke spotted the "battle" between Leia's ship and the Star Destroyer from earlier in the film).

In that scene one of Luke's friends (Fixer?) says "I doubt the Empire would even fight to save the system" because Tatooine is "a big hunk of nothing."

Now that MIGHT imply that Tatooine actually IS part of the Empire, but it's so remote and unimportant (perhaps like some colony or other category of possession) that the Empire doesn't consider it a priority. They might even allow criminals to run things for the most part. Such things aren't without precedent in real history.

Now that is a deleted scene, so you'll say "it's not canon." However, if I'm not mistaken the scene is also featured in the official screenplay of Star Wars, as well as in the novelisation, both of which are G-Level canon. So... it should still count for something.

Incidentally, even if you don't have BTM you can find various clips like the one I mentioned above at various fan sites (in varying quality) if you know where to look. Sites like JediNet iirc.

PS: Not that this is by any means certain, but if you just assumed that Kamino kept producing clones for the Republic at their current rate, they'd have made only two more batches by the time of ANH, for a total of 3.6 million soldiers. Of course (assuming all survived), roughly one third of those would be the equivalent of 60 year old men (like Obi-Wan in ANH), another third (2nd batch) would be equivalent to men in their 40's, with the final third (latest batch) just ripe at their "ready" age, more or less.

*imagines Luke & Co. being chased by senior citizen Stormies on the Death Star*

TK-8252
01-21-2005, 11:39 AM
Well, StarWars.com says Tatooine isn't part of the Empire, so... :p

Welcome back from... where ever you've been for ever, Kurgan! You're just not you without your avatar though. :(

Kurgan
01-21-2005, 12:27 PM
I thought a change was in order, you don't like it?

Same mug, different angle/lightning. ; )

I was on vacation, now I'm home sick with a cold. ; p


As for StarWars.com, they have been known to make mistakes.... from time to time.... oh dear oh dear oh dear... :confused:

So I'd appreciate seeing another source for verification!

shukrallah
02-20-2005, 05:20 PM
I hate the idea of clones... boba being a clone, and the troopers being clones.. it takes away from it all. All those years I thought Boba was some elite mandelorian master... and now... hes just a genetic copy. That sucks. The imperial's finest; stormtroopers, just copies.

As for the stormtroopers (my own theory) I think they used stormtroopers for a while, but then they started phasing them out.... as new recruits became available. As stated before, there were several Imperial Academys. Even Kyle Katarn and Han Solo both signed up and worked for the Empire (im not sure if they were stormtroopers). Kyle joined one of their Acadamies.


About Tatooine, I don't think either side controls it. Its a barren wasteland... who would want it. But even so, we know the Empire's presence was there, because of ANH... they had to have some kind of authority to stop speeders and do searches so perhaps the Empire had some kind of control of the planet. After all, the Empire was the main government of the Galaxy at that time.

Darth_Monkey11
08-21-2005, 06:35 PM
not all of them,some of them are aliens,humens,some rebel traidors..

TK-8252
08-21-2005, 07:19 PM
not all of them,some of them are aliens,humens,some rebel traidors..

All Stormtroopers are human. About 75% of them are clones.

And Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts. The Empire having power there is like how the U.S. has bases all around the world, like in Cuba.

Jan Gaarni
08-22-2005, 04:11 AM
PS: Not that this is by any means certain, but if you just assumed that Kamino kept producing clones for the Republic at their current rate, they'd have made only two more batches by the time of ANH, for a total of 3.6 million soldiers. Of course (assuming all survived), roughly one third of those would be the equivalent of 60 year old men (like Obi-Wan in ANH), another third (2nd batch) would be equivalent to men in their 40's, with the final third (latest batch) just ripe at their "ready" age, more or less.

*imagines Luke & Co. being chased by senior citizen Stormies on the Death Star*

Heh, well that would explain things such as their horrable shooting. :D

But as for clones or not, the Republic didn't have a joint standing army ready to be set into action. 3.6 million after 20-30 years, 1/3 of them being way too old troopers, spread out over millions of lightyears, simply arn't enough to keep control over the galaxy. And if you factor in several star destroyers being in active war duty, not just patrol duty, and assuming the active ones have their full compliment of troopers onboard (9000), with 25000 star destroyers around the galaxy that would mean they would only be able to fill 400 of those with troops (if you put them all on the ships that is). And if the TIE pilots truely are clones aswell, this would lower the number even more, as each star destroyer should have it's full compliment of fighters at all times. It just wouldn't be sufficient I believe.
Sure, the Empire had a regular army aswell by the time of ANH to supplement the stormtrooper divisions, but I still think it wouldn't be enough. They probably used regular people over time for the Stormtrooper divisions.


About Tatooine, I don't think either side controls it. Its a barren wasteland... who would want it. But even so, we know the Empire's presence was there, because of ANH... they had to have some kind of authority to stop speeders and do searches so perhaps the Empire had some kind of control of the planet. After all, the Empire was the main government of the Galaxy at that time.
Well, they didn't control the entire galaxy, by the time of TPM they hadn't even explored the entire galaxy yet, not that was documented atleast. But it was probably the biggest government.

richie
08-25-2005, 08:11 PM
lol thats funny im new at this i dont know how to post that.can you tell me how to do that plz.

coupes.
08-25-2005, 08:44 PM
Please ignore Darth_Monkey11, he's been spamming the boards lately, I must have missed this post.

richie, I suggest you read the FAQ (http://www.lucasforums.com/faq.php?) to get more information on how to use the forums. I didn't quite get your question, but I did understand it was about Readin and Posting Messages (http://www.lucasforums.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_vb_read_and_post), so read on... and welcome to LucasForums.

Zappa_0
08-26-2005, 02:58 PM
The Hutts is over Tatioone, it is part of the Hutt owned worlds. Also on the Clone/Storm Trooper thing, after the Clone Wars ended the cloning program pretty much ceased and the Imperial Amry started recruiting real people for there army. The officers was appart of the Republic Army before the clones, and I believe they and the Jedi was put over the clones to be commanders of the clone army. After the Jedi was gone the commanders had full control, but still had to report back to the emperor himself. On the Boba origin note, I think it is fine how George did it in Episode II. I still would have liked the idea of Boba killing Mace in Ep3. It would have presented more of a closure.

TK-8252
08-26-2005, 04:01 PM
Zappa you should have read the thread first, because we've already established that the vast majority of Stormtroopers are clones. After the Clone Wars, the cloning program underwent a massive expansion. This is said in the SW.com Databank.

Andrelvis
08-26-2005, 05:28 PM
doesn't leia hint at the 'clone-ness' of the stormtroopers when she asks luke if he's "too small" to be one?:confused:

On the contrary, my friend... It implies a standard for recruited troopers. If stormtroopers had a single height, she would be sure he wasn't a stormtrooper, but no, she wasn't sure, she just found it strange...

Leviathan
08-30-2005, 10:06 AM
On the contrary, my friend... It implies a standard for recruited troopers. If stormtroopers had a single height, she would be sure he wasn't a stormtrooper, but no, she wasn't sure, she just found it strange...
I would not say that there was a single height, but a minimal height... (As in a true Army)

Pho3nix
08-31-2005, 01:20 PM
I think you people analyze too much :P

Leviathan
08-31-2005, 01:29 PM
Not enough, I think... :)

Darth Hansen
09-03-2005, 04:56 PM
Yo People, The Movies Tell It All, All The Clones Turned Bad Because Darth Sidious Privately Broadcasted Order 66 to Commander Cody So Darth Vader and Emperor Sidious Became In Control of This Massive Army You Know What Im Saying, All That's Happened Is Darth Vader and Emperor Sidious Hired Some Smart Ass Officers To Run $hit and Engineers to Build $hit and The Costumes have Changed to Darth Vader's Liking. :)

Leviathan
09-04-2005, 12:42 PM
Clones weren't turned bad... They just obeyed to the Republic, symbolized by the Supreme Chancellor. Moreover, you said Sidious gave Order 66 to Commander Cody and so, get the command of the Clone Army : That's wrong ! Palpatine always had the control of this army, and Cody wasn't the only ARC trooper belonging to it...

TK-8252
09-04-2005, 05:51 PM
Cody wasn't the only ARC trooper belonging to it...

Cody's not an ARC Trooper.

Leviathan
09-05-2005, 12:55 PM
Oh yes, I forgot that... He just took part to a program of advanced training, led by an ARC trooper... :p (I should have been tired...)

Jan Gaarni
09-05-2005, 03:07 PM
Yes, you should have been tired, then you could have blamed it on sleep deprivation. :D :p ;)

Hootie
09-17-2005, 07:30 PM
if You've seen star wars revenge of the sith emperor palpatine tells commander Cody to execute order 66 turn aginst the jedi and then he tells commander Gree and Yoda cuts his head off and the rebellion comes and thats when they turn to storm troopers your wondering why didnt the officers well they did i'm sure that you've seen star wars 4,5 and 6 the sand troopers on episode 4 are the officers. by Hootie

TK-8252
09-17-2005, 07:56 PM
if You've seen star wars revenge of the sith emperor palpatine tells commander Cody to execute order 66 turn aginst the jedi and then he tells commander Gree and Yoda cuts his head off and the rebellion comes and thats when they turn to storm troopers your wondering why didnt the officers well they did i'm sure that you've seen star wars 4,5 and 6 the sand troopers on episode 4 are the officers. by Hootie

Uh, read the thread first please... that's how we do things here if you don't know that.

El Sitherino
09-18-2005, 11:34 PM
Hootie, if you make more than one post after another, let alone six posts, again you will meet your end. Understand?

Jan Gaarni
09-19-2005, 05:00 AM
Like I always say, Mods arn't here to clean up after you, we're here to make sure you clean up after yourself. ;)

Hootie
09-20-2005, 06:26 PM
shut up i can clean up

El Sitherino
09-20-2005, 06:48 PM
shut up
No, I think it'd be better if you did.

This is your final warning, stop spamming or else.

TK-8252
09-20-2005, 06:53 PM
i can clean up

I think you've already proven otherwise.

Kurgan
09-21-2005, 10:48 PM
It's hard for me to imagine that the Kaminoans would willingly continue to supply clones for the Empire, once the Republic was overthrown. In any event, I see Kamino as a target by either the new Empire for occupation and forced continued production of clones, or the the Rebellion for destruction to stop the production of clones.

Why wouldn't they? They're a corporation, which means their goal is profit. Just keep sending them the money they desire, and they'll keep producing. We don't have any indication that they're anti-dictatorship, and would that really bother them so much if they got increased funding?

On the other hand the government could always send in a sector fleet to "convince them."

Or perhaps they'd start a program to learn the technology from the Kaminoeans (after all, they've got 20 years), train their own scientists and engineers, and start up more cloning facilities, until they don't need the Kaminoeans anymore. Would the Kaminoeans consent to losing their trade secrets? Again, through manipulation or outright threats, the Empire could do it. Perhaps in the end their move didn't go all as planned (their plan to screw Kamino out of the clone contracts) and so that is another reason they had to start recruiting. But then it could be just as likely that the Empire's desire for more cannon fodder and occupational forces just outstripped their ability to cheaply produce clones in massive quantities. Or else there were budget cuts and they realized it would just be cheaper to shanghai some guys into service from each member planet.

Since we never see any Kaminoans in the original trilogy, one might surmise that the Kaminoans didn't throw their lot in with the Rebels.

Perhaps, but then we don't see a lot of the PT aliens in the classic trilogy. They could simply been elsewhere. Or yes, they could have stayed on their remote worlds. They could have been killed, who knows. But just because we can't see them doesn't mean they're not doing something, granted that can't be proven either way.

For all we know they were supplying clones for the Rebels! Now wouldn't that make an interesting EU story? ;)

Still, I do find it hard to believe that the Rebels would slaughter the Kaminoans to stop the clones.

They wouldn't have to. Just capture the technology or threaten/convince them not to use it. It would be just like any other resource in a war. How do you stop them from producing bombs? I'm not suggesting genocide against the planet.

Perhaps the Rebels do attack, catching the Empire off guard, and rather than let the cloning facility fall into the hands of the Rebels, the Empire scuttles every cloning facility in the face of the surprise Rebel advance?

Another EU story idea! They still have clones in the Classic Trilogy era, according to Lucas, so any such attempt wasn't entirely successful. But it's like any other technology, it's not "lost" they can just build more. Like if the death star is blown up, just build another one.

Speculation, true, but I've always wondered what happened to end the Clone Wars, and why they weren't simply seen as the initial stages of the Imperial revolution and the ensuring Rebellion. Unless there is some clear demarcation of peace between the combat of the Clone Wars and the start of hostilities during the Rebellion, in my mind they are all part of the same conflict.

If it's a penny for your thoughts, that's my two cents - keep the change.

Now we know! Well, we know a little more than we did before... not everything of course. ;)

Will the new TV show, games and novels totally ruin our imaginations? We'll see!

RaV™
09-25-2005, 04:06 PM
All Stormtroopers are human. About 75% of them are clones.

And Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts. The Empire having power there is like how the U.S. has bases all around the world, like in Cuba.

Basically your saying they have embassies on planets, and I think the reason why Clones aren't officers is mainly because they're better off in the feilds/spaces of war and battle.

Kurgan
09-25-2005, 05:33 PM
As to Clone Officers, well they used Clones as officers in the Prequel Trilogy, then all of a sudden in the Classic Trilogy they're not. Then again for all we know the officers are also Clones, and we just haven't seen any Troopers with their helmets off to be able to see their "twins." But I'm sure they'll say the reason is that in the Classic Trilogy they've either found that Clone Officers are too expensive to produce AND train with a shortage of clones (with the need to cycle in recruites or conscripts to fill out the ranks to meet the demand for a galactic army fighting a civil war) or something like that.

In AOTC-ROTS the entire Republic Army is shown as being composed of Clones (grunts, officers, pilots, etc), except for the Jedi who were the Generals. In the EU the Royal Guards come from the Stormtrooper ranks, but in the PT they are obviously just normal humans since they existed before the Clone Army was created and they're obviously not Jedi.

Well, they didn't control the entire galaxy, by the time of TPM they hadn't even explored the entire galaxy yet, not that was documented atleast. But it was probably the biggest government.

Who says they hadn't explored their entire galaxy? At least by the time of AOTC (10 years later, but still, they have hyperdrive remember? They can cross their galaxy in a matter of DAYS or WEEKS at most!) it is very strongly implied that the Republic has mapped it out. Note the scene in the Jedi Archives where Obi-Wan looks at a map of the galaxy and two other nearby galaxies.

The whole notion that there are unexplored parts of the galaxy come from the EU prior to the Prequels being made, where they included some parts called the "unknown regions." It was also strongly implied that NOBODY had ever left the Star Wars Galaxy, because of some magical nonesense stopping them (which is why the "Outbound Flight Project" failed). Likewise everyone was SHOCKED when the aliens from beyond the outer rim attacked (the Vong for example).

The Prequels seem to contradict this by nonshalantly implying that the Galaxy has been explored, and traveling outside the galaxy is no big deal. The Intergalactic Banking Clan probably does it routinely and other corporations traveling around between galaxies, etc.

Was this knowledge lost in the scant two decades between the time of the Prequels and the time of the Classic Trilogy? Hard to believe. After all, the Jedi Temple wasn't that badly damaged... and it's still standing as of ROTJ.

Granted, now the EU writers have been scrambling since AOTC to re-write the history and try to fit the "unknown regions" back in, etc. and give an alternate history of the "Outbound Flight Project" etc.

I'm told it has something to do with the Unknown Regions just being devoid of anyting useful or interesting and patrolled by pirates or whatnot, making them pointless to explore (so people thought) and the Outbound Flight being deliberately sabotaged by Palpatine and his cronies. I haven't read those new sources so I don't know if that's an accurate assesment. I just see it all as being a big retcon now that the Prequels make it out to be that the Republic has explored all this stuff.

It seems that the EU writers just grossy underestimated the distances that could be traveled with hyperdrive, based on the canon calculations of said speed and logical conclusions from them. Also by making the galaxy seem larger, and more "strange and exotic" like sea-faring before the discovery of the New World on earth (to borrow the "wild frontiers of space" motif of Star Trek for example), they perhaps hoped to make it seem more adventuresome, rather than having it be like routine traveling around the US today in your sports car/RV.

Jan Gaarni
09-25-2005, 06:08 PM
Qui-Gon says so, that's why.

Kurgan
09-25-2005, 06:18 PM
Qui-Gon says so, that's why.

Says what, and where?

Surely you're not referring to this part of the TPM script:


QUI-GON : Sit still, Annie. Let me clean this cut.
ANAKIN : There are so many! Do they all have a system of planets?
QUI-GON : Most of them.
ANAKIN : Has anyone been to them all?
QU-IG0N : (laughs) Not likely.
ANAKIN : I want to be the first one to see them all... Ouch!

They seem to be discussing a single individual physically visiting every planetary system in the galaxy... ;)

MachineCult
10-18-2005, 06:20 PM
That is exactly what they were discussing. I doubt a nine year old slave boy would start a discussion about the politics of the galactic republic.