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Admiral Vostok
09-21-2004, 08:11 PM
Well this is off-topic, since it isn't SWGB related, but it's not like the forums are getting clogged up with off topic posts... or indeed posts of any kind.

Who has gotten their hands on the Star Wars Trilogy DVDs? They were released today and I made it one of my first orders of the day to go out and get them.

I watched A New Hope today, and will most likely watch Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi within the next few days.

Also on the DVDs is an XBox playable demo of Battlefront. I gave this a try since I have access to an XBox, and let me just say it is indeed a great game.

So, being as fanatical about these movies as I am, I just thought I might like to hear what anyone else has to say on the matter.

DK_Viceroy
09-21-2004, 11:22 PM
If the X-box demo comes on a seperate disc i'm gonna stick it in the Deep Fat Fryer and use it as a frisbee it's all any X-Box game is good for.

Actually I know who's fault it is that there hasn't been any posts I'll let other people figure it out though i'll give everyone a Hint Vostok's attevend.

It looks pretty good but of course EP 3 isn't going to be that full of sprises for me since the star wars .com site gives away quite a bit anyway and that's not to the snobs who payed for hyperspace.

Hope we get to see the m aking of General Grevious though.

APart from that it looks good

saberhagen
09-22-2004, 03:21 AM
In theory I'd like to own these, for the extras if nothing else, but I can't really justify spending 25 on DVDs atm and I already have my dodgy Malaysian imports of the special editions. I don't really feel like giving LF any more of my money while they refuse to release the originals.

What does attevend mean?

FroZticles
09-22-2004, 04:33 AM
I will not be getting the DVDs for a few months. I have better things to do with my money plus it really annoys me how they love to bring everything out at once leaving me nice and broke :mad:

Admiral Vostok
09-22-2004, 04:38 AM
Yeah I don't know what attevend means either, but I assume Viceroy is talking about Windu's absence.

The X-Box demo comes on the same disc as the rest of the bonus features, so I wouldn't go frisbeeing it anywhere.

Saber, you should be able to get them cheaper than that. Try Amazon at the very least.

As for the topic of the "original" vs the updated ones, I was thinking about this the other day... apart from the fact Lucas will never release the "originals" ever again, did they really have anything over the updated ones? All the important parts are the same. Watching A New Hope, I was impressed with some of the cleaning up they've done - it always annoyed me that when the Millennium Falcon entered the Death Star, you could totally see the stick holding it up. They've fixed that in this version, as well as a host of other nice touch-ups. They're still the same movies as the "originals", the story hasn't changed and apart from being cleaned up and modernised the visuals are pretty much the same too, or at least in the same vein.

saberhagen
09-22-2004, 11:28 AM
Amazon 26.99. I think the cheapest is Play at 22.99.

The problem I have with the special editions is that they are different from the originals in some fairly significant ways. My biggest criticism is that the pace and structure of the original ANH were damn near perfect and unmatched by most other films before or since. With the extra scenes, that's all gone out of the window. The new scene with Jabba is completely superfluous and just slows things down. It has pretty much the same dialog as the Greedo scene. Then there's Greedo shotting first which everyone moans about all the time. Isn't it just absurd that he fires at such close range but misses?

Again in ESB there's a couple of pointless scenes with Vader getting on and off his shuttle near the end. They look nice in themselves, but they kill the pace at what is supposed to be the climax of the film.

ROTJ was always my least favourite anyway, but they've gone and made it worse. I used to think the Ewoks singing was pretty cheesy until I heard the awful Pan Pipe Moods type thing that they replaced it with. /me vomits copiously.

If they'd just clened them up and made them look better, that would be OK, but I think the changes are too big. A lot of the CGI stuff looks really out of place next to the original models. And it's the models that look more realistic. There's just something inherently wrong with CGI, or at least the way it's always employed in films. It just looks to smooth, clean and shiny. Models have much better textures and just look and feel more "real".

ANd these criticisms are just based on the 97 editions. If some of the rumours I've heard about the latest issue are true, then I'll be even more unimpressed.

swphreak
09-22-2004, 11:47 AM
I preoreded them awhile back.

AOTC DVDs are like 20 bucks now. With the trilogy, you're getting all 3 for 40 bucks. That's a good deal. That's like getting 1 free, plus you get all the bonus stuff.

I wihs I could play the BF demo, but when I preordered the DVDs, it was set to ship to home in FL, not my dorm. I'll have to wait for the PC Demo.

DK_Viceroy
09-22-2004, 01:35 PM
I'm not referring to Windu's absence that is a good thing and what's propably an unapreciated releif.

Since i forgot that throwing a birck through a window is classed as subtle around here what is was saying may has well not been saying so i'll spell it out.

Vostok's Xenophobia against the Geonosians taking their rightful place has scared everyone else because to argue like vostok has looks like flaming to an outsider and thus since I myself have deemed that thread a waste of time and not worth the bandwidth most people because of that thread have been scared off by it.

Is that subtle enough or do i need to do it in large?

Admiral Vostok
09-22-2004, 03:59 PM
Well that is slightly less subtle than using made-up words to describe it, yes. But calling my argument against Geonosian inclusion xenophobia makes it obvious you have no grasp of my argument at all.

Back on topic, I'd just like to address Saber's thoughts on the Special Edition. While some of the CGI seemed out of place in '97, that was really due to how unsophisticated CGI was back then. Jabba the Hutt's scene is the obvious evidence for that. For this version they've fixed that scene so Jabba looks right, at least so he matches his appearance in The Phantom Menace. They've further cleaned up a lot of the CGI in the DVD version, and in fact I believe the only reason people say you can tell what is CGI and what isn't is because you've seen it without. To prove my point, look at the bit with the CGI dewbacks when the Stormtroopers are looking at the excape pod. One of the dewbacks was a live prop, the rest are CGI. You can not tell which is which just by looking at them, and without getting out the old version and playing it side-by-side.

Greedo's shooting first was certainly the thing people complained most about, and perhaps due to that they've made Han and Greedo shoot simultaneously in the DVD version. I should point out that most people misinterpret Greedo's shot as a kill shot which misses horribly, when in fact it seems pretty obvious to me that the reason he missed at such close range was because he was just trying to scare Han, not actually kill him.

The scenes with Vader getting on his shuttle in The Empire Strikes Back I could agree with. I don't think they break up the movement of that scene; it's after the climax, so you're not really stringing it out. It just looks out of place because the music doesn't match up properly. I'd argue that had these scenes been properly included in the original version no one would complain.

And finally, to the Ewok song. If you like the old Ewok chanting over the new impressive finale score, I really think it is a case of just liking the old version for the sake of it. The Ewok song made me cringe every time I watched Return of the Jedi, so much so I'd tend to turn it off right about there. The Death Star was blown up, I'm not going to hang around and listen to the crappy Ewok song. The new version is a much more fitting end to a six-film saga.

The changes between Special Edition and DVD Edition are not as jarring as the changes between Original Edition and Special Edition. The only change I'm truly wary of is the replacement of Sebastian Shaw's ghost Anakin with that of Hayden Christensen. However, George Lucas says there is a reason for it that will be revealed in Episode III, and as always I put my faith in him. I'll at least reserve judgement until I've actually watched the DVD Edition Return of the Jedi.

lukeiamyourdad
09-22-2004, 06:10 PM
Go watch it now. If they've replaced Sebastian Shaw I'm gonna go kill Christensen right now. I'm not joking.


EDIT: Nevermind that. I read it on the LF Star Wars boards.
*Picks out AK-47 bought back in Nam*

YOUR DEAD CHRISTENSEN! DEAD I TELL YOU! DEAD 'CAUSE YOU ACCEPTED TO DO IT! DEAD!

DK_Viceroy
09-23-2004, 01:10 AM
It's called Rearranging the letters. so people who want to know can by rearranging that into a word.

I haven't seen the new versions yet but I think luke should save his anger for the forum game and if the guy has to die send a droid instead

:bdroid2::bdroid2::bdroid2::bdroid2::bdroid2:

Darth Windu
09-23-2004, 03:04 AM
Viceroy - bite me

saberhagen
09-23-2004, 03:57 AM
Thing is with the dewbacks, at least in the 97 version, it's really screwed up the composition of the shot. It's like he just put them in because he could. There was no real need for it. Same with the extra meanderings round Mos Eisley. Why? So we get to see an ASP7. So what? It's almost like GL has become his own biggest and most nerdish fan.

I never said I liked the Ewok song. Quite the opposite in fact. But what exactly is "impressive" about the new music? It sounds like the sort of thing that is "not available in the shops". Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to replace it with some John Williams orchestral music which fitted in with the rest of the score?

Admiral Vostok
09-23-2004, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by saberhagen
Thing is with the dewbacks, at least in the 97 version, it's really screwed up the composition of the shot. It's like he just put them in because he could. There was no real need for it. Same with the extra meanderings round Mos Eisley. Why? So we get to see an ASP7. So what? It's almost like GL has become his own biggest and most nerdish fan.Well the expanded Mos Eisley sequence was because in 1977 they didn't have the resources to recreate a huge spaceport city, so it looked small and under-populated. Now it looks proper, and much of the dodgy CGI has been fixed up in the DVDs.
I never said I liked the Ewok song. Quite the opposite in fact. But what exactly is "impressive" about the new music? It sounds like the sort of thing that is "not available in the shops". Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to replace it with some John Williams orchestral music which fitted in with the rest of the score?I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing here... the new music was composed by John Williams, it is orchestral and it fits excellently with the rest of the music. If you listen to it you'll find it is sort of a revisit to the main theme; it shares many similarities with existing Star Wars music but is different enough to be an entirely new theme. Unless you're thinking of different music to me I don't understand your complaint.

Luke: Have faith that George Lucas will explain Christensen's appearance as a ghost through Episode III. I got the impression the reason he was replaced was to amend a continuity problem that leaving Sebastian Shaw there would create.

Kryllith
09-23-2004, 05:48 AM
Just have to say that I actually like the Ewok's song. It's simple and primal like the Ewoks themselves and works fine for me. I don't mind the other song, but I'd prefer that it just be played while viewing the celebrations on the other planets (and extend the scenes of those celebrations if you want to have the whole song) then lead into the Ewok song to show the celebration on Endor. Course, if you want a celebration song, they could always go with the Gungan's song at the end of TPM.

Kryllith

DK_Viceroy
09-23-2004, 06:24 AM
wasn't the ASP 7 already in the orignals anyway?

I personally liked the TPM celebration song was that the one played during that parade where they get that glowing orb of unity?

:bdroid2: and windu i'd rather not i don't know where you've been.:bdroid2:

Admiral Vostok
09-23-2004, 08:00 AM
No, the ASP-7 was created for the Special Edition. The way you can tell is that there is no way for the ASP-7 to be operated by a human in 1977: the design could only be made with CGI.

Indeed the Ewok song is simple and primal, and in itself the song isn't terrible as it does suit the Ewoks. However, that is the problem; it suits the Ewoks, not the end of a multi-generational saga of galactic politics and warfare.

The Gungan song on the other hand suits The Phantom Menace fine. It's the end of a single movie, not the end of a six-film saga, and it's a celebration of the freedom of a single planet, not the entire galaxy.

I've just been watching the full-length documentary that comes on the bonus disc with the DVDs, and after watching it, it is obvious that the original versions of all three films were not exactly what George Lucas wanted, but he had to put up with due to time, money and technology constraints. If I was him and I now had the ability to make my greatest movies more accurately represent my vision of them, I would do what he's done too.

saberhagen
09-23-2004, 10:51 AM
So anyway, who's excited about Smile?

Admiral Vostok
09-23-2004, 01:29 PM
Smile? :confused:

swphreak
09-23-2004, 02:40 PM
DK and Windu need to get a room.

Whatt kind of documentries are there? I can;t watch the DVD til my parents bring it up in 2 weeks...

lukeiamyourdad
09-23-2004, 06:15 PM
I heard Empire of Dreams was on the DVD. If you saw it on TV then you probably didn't miss that.



And I don't care about continuity and it better be one hell of a good reason. Either way, YOU'LL DIE SCREAMING HAYDEN!

DK_Viceroy
09-23-2004, 11:18 PM
Luke calm down you'll scare off some people save it for the games this weekend if you do it'll certainly be an epic instead of a flash in the pan game.

Kryllith
09-24-2004, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
wasn't the ASP 7 already in the orignals anyway?

I personally liked the TPM celebration song was that the one played during that parade where they get that glowing orb of unity?

That's the one. I'm a big fan of it too, considering it's my favorite song in the movie (which is saying a lot, given Duel of Fates).

Kryllith

Kryllith
09-24-2004, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Indeed the Ewok song is simple and primal, and in itself the song isn't terrible as it does suit the Ewoks. However, that is the problem; it suits the Ewoks, not the end of a multi-generational saga of galactic politics and warfare.

I'll grant you that, which is why I suggested using both songs. Though personally, if you want a galaxy-wide celebration I think the award ceremony march from New Hope would fit best. Course, that'd be unuseable given it already concluded the other movie.

Kryllith

FroZticles
09-24-2004, 05:06 AM
Hmmmm I hope George will stun us all and go back and finish the last 3 movies to the saga like he promised at least for the Star Wars fans.

There is alot he could do.

The Imperials are still a force in the galaxy.

Reconstruction of the Jedi Order

New Republic struggle to maintain there presence as the new government

Possible new Sith threat and more.....

Admiral Vostok
09-24-2004, 05:33 AM
The version of Empire of Dreams they showed on TV was a greatly cut down version. I watched the one on TV and the DVD one, and let me say the while the TV version was very interesting there are bits in the DVD version that are fantastic. Probably the best behind-the-scenes documentary I've ever seen (though I may be biased).

I watched The Empire Strikes Back last night, and there are two notable things they've done to it. First was replacing the monkey-woman-thing representing the Emperor with Ian McDiarmid. There's also a couple of extra lines added to this bit, which I quite like and which would have been great to have in the original version. To be honest I don't know why they didn't fix this in the Special Edition, but I for one welcome it in the DVD Edition. The second big change was re-recording Boba Fett's lines with Temuera Morrison. It was a bit jarring at first because I was so used to the old Boba Fett voice, but the new voice works fine and let's face it, no-one was a big fan of Boba Fett's voice in the first place.

The bit with Vader going back to his Star Destroyer are still there, though I think they're edited a bit better to fit in more - could just be me though. There are other little touch-ups too throughout the film.

I decided to confirm Christensen's presence at the end of Return of the Jedi, so while I still haven't seen Jedi in it's entirety yet, I can confirm Christensen has replaced Sebastian Shaw. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, LukesDad, I didn't know you were such a fan of Mr Shaw's work. When it comes down to it, does anyone really care that much that an old guy who no-one recognised used to be there instead of a young guy that everyone recognises?

lukeiamyourdad
09-24-2004, 08:19 PM
I'm not a Shaw fan, I'm a Christensen hater.

Admiral Vostok
09-25-2004, 06:57 AM
Well that's a shame. Any particular reason you hate Christensen? Personally I can't think of anyone who could have done the job better.

Finally, my review of Return of the Jedi, which I watched yesterday. Probably the part I was most impressed with was the Rancor scene. Even in the Special Edition it looked too fake. They've completely fixed it up now, so it looks fantastic. They've really cleaned it up, matched the colours properly and even added shadows.

The other effects have been touched up as well, but it is certainly the most noticable in the Rancor sequence. The other clightly noticable change is that they digitally removed Sebastian Shaw's eyebrows... I hadn't really thought about it before but it doesn't make much sense that he'd be hairless except for his eyebrows. I think it looks a lot better now.

The only other big changes are during the final celebration. The inclusion of Naboo amongst the rejoicing planets at the end fits in nicely. Christensen's appearance with Obi-Wan and Yoda is a little jarring at first, but as I said before there is apparently a good reason for it. I don't mind it at all, he just stands there and has no lines. It certainly doesn't spoil the movie or anything.

DarthMuffin
09-27-2004, 05:41 PM
I bought the DVDs last week, but I still haven't managed to look at the movies :( I'm kind of really busy these days...

Only one thing disappoints me : I had heard somewhere on the net (I know it's not a very good source, but still) that they added a scene with Palp dissolving the senate. Well, the review of the DVDs at digitalbits.com didn't mentioned this scene (can anyone confirm? (Vostok)). I think it would have been a great idea to show this. That way, we would have seen Palp in all the movies (continuity), and we would officially "see" that he now controls everything. Of course it might have screwed the pace a little, but if I remember correctly, the beginning of ANH isn't that interesting.

On the other hand, the ESB scene with Palp would also have been screwed a little, but it wouldn't have been that bad.

I don't have any problem with Hayden at the end of RotJ, except the fact that he looks young... I mean, Obi's still Alec Guiness (and even though Ewan does a fine job, we want to keep Alec for sure), but Anakin still has the look of AotC and RofS. I know he "died" when he became Vader, but it does look odd to me anyway.

I'll post my opinions of the movies as soon as I find the time to watch them.

On a side note, I checked the Ep 3 documentary in fast foward, and the duel scene looks very great! :D

Kryllith
09-28-2004, 06:29 AM
There isn't a scene with Palpatine dissolving the senate in the new version. We're still just informed about the dissolving by Tarkin in the Death Star warroom scene.

Kryllith

Admiral Vostok
09-28-2004, 06:26 PM
As Kryllith said, no such scene of Palpatine dissolving the Senate exists. It is, afterall, not needed since Tarkin says it all with his line.

Originally posted by Darth54
I don't have any problem with Hayden at the end of RotJ, except the fact that he looks young... I mean, Obi's still Alec Guiness (and even though Ewan does a fine job, we want to keep Alec for sure), but Anakin still has the look of AotC and RofS. I know he "died" when he became Vader, but it does look odd to me anyway.That is pretty much the only problem I have with it too. If they're going to replace Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen, why not Alec Guinness with Ewan MacGregor and puppet Yoda with CGI Yoda? Yet I have heard that there is an explicit reason for doing this. Apparently it is to repair a continuity error that will arise from Episode III. So there is apparently reason to what looks like madness... but we'll have to wait before we find out what the reason is...

DarthMuffin
09-29-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Apparently it is to repair a continuity error that will arise from Episode III. So there is apparently reason to what looks like madness... but we'll have to wait before we find out what the reason is...

The only reason I can think of is, like I said, that Anakin will "die" when he becomes Vader.

But that's not a very obvious reason, and might confuse many people. So lets hope it's something else :)

saberhagen
09-30-2004, 09:45 AM
You'd think they could've just written EpIII so that it didn't make a continuity error. Then again, they created enough continuity errors in I and II, so maybe GL and his yes men just don't have a clue what they're doing.

The idea that it's because Anakin "dies" when he becomes Vader doesn't really make much sense, because he comes back at the point where he takes pity on Luke, renounces the dark side and kills the emperor, thereby fulfilling the prophesy that he is the chosen one who will restore balance to the force. If he's been "dead" since EpIII then the climax of the whole saga no longer makes any sense at all.

And why didn't they paste Christensen's face into the scene where he takes his mask off? ;)

Admiral Vostok
10-01-2004, 01:21 PM
What continuity errors in Episode I and II?

DK_Viceroy
10-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Look how BLIND the star wars scholar is

Don't forget the Continuity Errors between Ep 2 and 4

when your finished Attempting to come up with the answer that does not exist let me know in propably 5 years.

swphreak
10-02-2004, 08:20 AM
It's so... beautiful!

So clear and crisp. I'm at the begining of Ep4 now.

"There will be no one to stop us this time!"

Admiral Vostok
10-02-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
Look how BLIND the star wars scholar is

Don't forget the Continuity Errors between Ep 2 and 4

when your finished Attempting to come up with the answer that does not exist let me know in propably 5 years. If you're going to challenge my authority at least provide an example of a continuity error. Until then I remain undisputedly a Star Wars Scholar.

Nairb Notneb
10-03-2004, 06:34 AM
Man have I missed you guys. I hate hurricanes. Anyway, I got my DVD's thank you very much mister Lucas for the brand new version of the definitive version of the special edition special edition Original Trilogy. Other wise known as Episodes four, five and six. The best part was the bonus DVD, if you hate the rest (I hate the changes by the way because they are not Star Wars in my opinion, but my opinion doesn't matter because I bought it anyway and will continue to because I am a freak) you will love the bonus because you are a fan. I have yet to watch all of ROTJ, but I did watch the ghost change and I can't stand it!

LukeIamyourdad, I feel your pain. If I were Georgypoo, and I were gearing up for a SW TV show and wanted a young Anakin for it (my theory behind the change) then I would also change in a young every Jedi that I could sign on the bottom line and create a story line that says their ghosts can appear at any age that they want to justify it and maybe more people would like it. I hate it.

ANH. Jabba still looks too small and Greedo should never shoot because Han is a pirate, not a gentle man. If Greedo is an assassin, why is he a horrible marksman? Did he get trained by the Stormtroopers?

TESB. When Han and Leia are running to the Falcon with 3-PO behind, Han stops and looks at a door. It has the yellow warning sticker on it. Is this sticker on the original because I have never noticed it before. I ask because this sticker is from a deleted scene in which wampas attack the base and the rebels lock them in this room and put this sticker on the door. While fleeing the incoming stormtroopers C3-PO removes said sticker and the pursuing troopers run into the room and find the wampas. I'll have to check. They replaced the old emperor with the "real" actor (his name escapes at the moment) for the Vader talk scene. The dialog was also changed so that Vader had no idea that he had a son at all, much less that it was Luke. This is a problem for me because right before Hoth he wants so bad to get him, calls him by name and now Palpatine says hey, you're a dad, go smoke a cigar! It doesn't work for me. Bad move. No continuity in this movie's story if you ask me.

ROTJ. Arrrrrrrrrrrrggggh. I can't say it enough I HATE THE GHOST CHANGE! There better be a dog gone good reason for the change in ROTS or else I won't be seeing another new Star Wars movie again! I mean it.

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 09:14 AM
Nairb, let me address your concerns, though it probably won't do much.

ANH
- Jabba looks fine to me. Certainly not any smaller than in ROTJ.
- Again you mistake Greedo's shot as missing accidentally. Although the dialogue between Greedo and Han indicates Greedo wants to kill him, the fact is that at this point in time Jabba wanted Han alive, not dead. This is obvious from the restored Jabba scene. No matter how bad a Bounty Hunter Greedo is (note Bounty Hunter, not Assassin), he's not about to annoy Jabba by shooting Han right in the face. The shot was merely meant to scare Han into co-operation.

TESB
- The sticker is in the original, and you are right it is the sticker Threepio removes in the deleted scene.
- I think you're misunderstanding the dialogue between Vader and the Emperor. It's not so much the Emperor telling Vader he's a father and Vader saying "Really?", it's the Emperor confirming Vader's fears that Luke is Anakin Skywalkers son (not Darth Vader's son). In fact, this is my favourite new addition because it works so well. It now gives a reason why Vader was searching for Skywalker. Don't forget at this point in the film it hasn't been revealed that Vader is Luke's father. The Emperor says Luke is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker, who until this point we're under the impression Vader killed. Why is Vader so keen on finding Skywalker? Because this is the son of Vader's nemesis Anakin Skywalker! It's something I never understood, but it works fantastically now.

ROTJ
- Again I really don't think a couple of slightly changed seconds in the end of Return of the Jedi is reason enough to swear off Star Wars films. I really think people are over reacting. It barely changes the movie at all, and far from ruins it.

Honestly, the only reason I think people reject the changes to Star Wars is because they have this strange concept that changing the look of the film - and it really is just the look, the story has not been altered at all by any of the changes - ruins it. For me, the important thing about Star Wars is the story. It hasn't been changed, and the movies look a bit better, so what's the big deal? I think my biggest evidence for this is the band in Jabba's palace. The character now known as "Sy Snootles" thorugh EU looks pretty darn good in the Special Edition. Now go and get your old taped-from-TV Return of the Jedi and look at Sy Snootles in that version, when she was the worst puppet to ever come to realisation. You can not honestly tell me the old Sy Snootles is any better. Even with the worst CGI possible, the old Sy Snootles still looks way worse. Again, the new scene doesn't change the all-important story, it just improves the look and fell of the film. How can that possibly be bad? Anyone who wants the old Sy Snootles back is really proving my point that for the most part Special Edition critics like the original just for the sake of being a grizzly veteran whose good ol' days were much better.

[/rant]

DK_Viceroy
10-03-2004, 09:26 AM
I have yet to buy the box set but Sy Snootles didn't seem to be that bad now that Yuzzum looked bad it didn't really seem to fit in at all even if you take into account that it's from the endor moon.

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 09:30 AM
Yuzzum being from Endor is purely EU. In the context of the movies it makes no sense. The only reason EU says Yuzzum are from Endor is because originally the Yuzzum design was meant to be on Endor with the Ewoks, but they dropped it when the stilt legs proved too hard to make work. EU decided to make them from Endor anyway, so that when Lucasfilm reused their Yuzzum design for Jabba's band the EU makes no sense.

Of course the movies look bad if you think EU is correct, in exactly the same way EU looks bad if you consider the movies correct.

Nairb Notneb
10-03-2004, 12:50 PM
EU gets in the way all of the time, I agree. There are some items of it I enjoy if we were to have the luxury of picking and choosing. Anyway, The new Special Edition released to DVD has improved the new scene with Jabba at the Falcon in ANH (though it's not "perfect"), and the addition of Bobba Fett is interesting, though he wasn't in the original deleted scene. A few scenes that I was interested in seeing were with Luke and Biggs meeting at Tashi station. Also Luke, The "Fixer" and Camie meeting there when Luke observes the opening scene of the Tantivie IV being overtaken through his macrobinoculars. There also was another scene of Han in the Cantina sitting with some unknown "woman" with his arm around her. Another scene that I would have liked to seen added was when Gold leader was speaking to Luke before the Battle of Yavin, part of which they did add. In this conversation he says that he knew Luke's father and that he was a great fighter pilot, that would have been a great line. I still think having Greedo shoot his gun is a mistake. The CGI enhancements are great, but in the Battle of Yavin, when the X-wings switch back and forth from models to CGI and back, it really takes away from the authenticity of the look in my opinion.

It is entirely possible that I have jumped the gun with a knee jerk type reaction (I don't take change well sometimes) to these two particular changes in the story, referring to Vader not knowing of Luke being his son and the younger Anakin ghost. These two changes were obviously made to fit episode three a little bit better. I hope.

One more question. When will the TV Christmas Special come out on DVD?

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
the addition of Bobba Fett is interesting, though he wasn't in the original deleted scene.He was added for the Special Edition in '97, though. He isn't new to the DVDs.A few scenes that I was interested in seeing were with Luke and Biggs meeting at Tashi station. Also Luke, The "Fixer" and Camie meeting there when Luke observes the opening scene of the Tantivie IV being overtaken through his macrobinoculars. There also was another scene of Han in the Cantina sitting with some unknown "woman" with his arm around her. Another scene that I would have liked to seen added was when Gold leader was speaking to Luke before the Battle of Yavin, part of which they did add. In this conversation he says that he knew Luke's father and that he was a great fighter pilot, that would have been a great line.I don't want all the deleted scenes restored, but it would have been cool to add a deleted scenes part to the bonus features DVD. I don't know why they didn't. Hopefully they'll eventually allow them to be downloaded from dvd.starwars.com.It is entirely possible that I have jumped the gun with a knee jerk type reaction (I don't take change well sometimes) to these two particular changes in the story, referring to Vader not knowing of Luke being his son and the younger Anakin ghost. These two changes were obviously made to fit episode three a little bit better. I hope.As I said they don't change the story at all. Although the Vader/Emperor conversation is different, it just reveals more about what they know rather than changing what they know. They still know the same information they know in the original versions, it's just we are privy to a bit more of their knowledge this time around. As I said this is my favourite change because it gives justification to Vader's obsession with Luke before we find out they are Father and Son. And the young ghost Anakin doesn't change the story either: Luke sees his dead father in both versions, his apparent age is irrelevant.
One more question. When will the TV Christmas Special come out on DVD?I think never. Lucasfilm rarely if ever mentions the Holiday Special. It was noticably lacking from the behind the scenes documentary. I think they're of the opinion it should never see the light of day again. Having had the priviledge of seeing it, I agree it should never be released. Though if it was released maybe people would realise there have been far worse additions to the Star Wars franchise than the prequels...

Darth Windu
10-05-2004, 08:04 PM
Hi folks, i've just watched ANH and ESB and am, generally, impressed. I've always liked the '97 editions better than the originals, and the DVD's are even better. I do have a few comments though

ANH
- FIX THE FRICKIN LIGHTSABRES!!!!! At times during the film, Luke's sabre alternates between light blue, almost white and, at one point, pale green. Why cant they just clean that up? Obi Wan's isnt great either, but not as bad.

- The Death Star Battle should have been completely CG. I dont mean remove the actors or anything like that, but as it was said before, mixing the CG and models just looks bad. The CG is great, but the models are so 1970's its not funny.

- it might be my imagination, but it seems like the opening battle has been cleaned up quite a bit. Now looks much better.

ESB
- Replacing ol' monkey eyes with McDairmond (sp?) was great, but the extra lines really weren't needed. Still good though.

- Changing Boba Fett's voice and the sound of Slave 1 was great, makes continuity much smoother.

One question i do have though, why are the credits not changed? For example, there is no mention of Morrison as Boba Fett's voice, and the original ESB emporer is still listed in the credits. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me, but hey. As for RotJ, hoping to see that soon, and i think the idea of adding Christianson at the end is great. It shows all three heroes as they were when they ended as Jedi.

Admiral Vostok
10-06-2004, 07:36 AM
ANH
- FIX THE FRICKIN LIGHTSABRES!!!!! At times during the film, Luke's sabre alternates between light blue, almost white and, at one point, pale green. Why cant they just clean that up? Obi Wan's isnt great either, but not as bad.They fixed the lightsaber duel itself, but I agree some other lightsaber bits could have used a touch up. In particular I think the part where Luke is training with the remote makes the lightsaber look pure white, no blue at all.- The Death Star Battle should have been completely CG. I dont mean remove the actors or anything like that, but as it was said before, mixing the CG and models just looks bad. The CG is great, but the models are so 1970's its not funny.You have got to be kidding. It was that battle scene that defined Star Wars as a revolutionary special effects movie. Some people were upset with the minor additions they made already, they would never get away with an all-out replacement. Besides I don't agree that the CG stands out. Why change the old models when they work so well?- it might be my imagination, but it seems like the opening battle has been cleaned up quite a bit. Now looks much better.It's not any different to the Special Edition clean-up, which has only been colour corrected from the original.ESB
- Replacing ol' monkey eyes with McDairmond (sp?) was great, but the extra lines really weren't needed. Still good though.As I've said already, I think the new lines are great. The establish the characters and their supposed motives a bit more before we discover Vader is actually Luke's father.- Changing Boba Fett's voice and the sound of Slave 1 was great, makes continuity much smoother.For the most part I like it, but I think Temuera Morrison could have put the same tonality in that the original guy did.One question i do have though, why are the credits not changed? For example, there is no mention of Morrison as Boba Fett's voice, and the original ESB emporer is still listed in the credits. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me, but hey.Yeah that didn't make much sense to me. But there is probably some legal obligation not to remove the original voice of both the Emperor and Boba Fett from the credits.

Nairb Notneb
10-07-2004, 02:48 AM
I'll have to agree with Darth Windu on the Battle of Yavin special effects, on some issues. Going back and forth between models and CGI is very obvious and I liked it and hated it in '97. The "new" CGI stuff looks great, but when paired up with the model effects, they just look out of place to me in the same scene. I also agree with the great "Star Wars Scholar" that if you take out the trench run models that you take out of piece of Star Wars. This battle scene was a part of what made this movie great. I would hate to see them leave completely. What's the solution? It won't matter. Once GL altered the plan it was guarantied that somewhere people would not be happy with something and now he has opened Pandora's Box. Lets just pray that he won't alter the plan any further.

saberhagen
10-07-2004, 06:19 AM
Models is better than CGI. You knows it.

DK_Viceroy
10-07-2004, 06:35 AM
I'm staying out of this because this is an argument now worth fighting and I have no strong desire to actuall;y get involved in it especially since I am at present Scheming on something.

Admiral Vostok
10-07-2004, 08:56 AM
Personally I don't think the CGI looks all that different to the models. You can tell if you look close enough but at a glance it all fits together pretty well.

George Lucas is welcome to change any part of his movies he wants to, but he understands that there are some parts that are sacred. The Battle of Yavin is one of those things. He can touch it up here and there, but to replace it completely like Windu is suggesting is madness. That's why he didn't completely replace it in the Special Edition, and that's why he never will.

Darth Windu
10-07-2004, 07:08 PM
I didnt mean replace the whole battle, just the action up until the trench run. An example of why the models need to be replaced is when Luke does a strafing run - it looks really bad, especially when compared to the CGI dogfight scenes.

I should also point out that the engine colours for the fighters and the Falcon are different for the models and CGI which looks rather odd.

lukeiamyourdad
10-07-2004, 07:28 PM
The models are fine though I agree that the Death Star's surface looks weird.

swphreak
10-07-2004, 10:32 PM
I saw this comic (http://btc.bolloxcomics.co.uk/comics/0449.png), and laughed my ass off pretty hard. :xp:

Nairb Notneb
10-08-2004, 03:18 AM
Vostok, the models look like plastic and have jerky movements. The CGI look like, well, CGI cartoons. They are very different.

Nice comic Phreak. Look at this trading card that Astro made.

http://www.myimgs.com/data/astrotoy7/ootagootasolo.gif

Admiral Vostok
10-11-2004, 01:51 PM
I still don't think the CGI looks so different from the models it is bad. And certainly I don't think the CGI looks any better than the models.

Darth Windu
10-12-2004, 02:37 AM
Vostok - really? Its actually really easy to tell the difference between the models and CGI, and i must say i adore the CGI, much like in AotC.

Nairb Notneb
10-12-2004, 02:50 AM
There is a huge difference between the two. I still think that the models look great myself. IMHO, all the CGI adds to the movies is the background and the stop motion work. The rest turned out just fine.

The touch up work on the sabers is garbage. Luke's "blue" sabers in ANH are some what green, and yes I checked the color setting on my TV to make sure, plus I played my VHS real version and they are different.

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2004, 08:09 AM
Yes, you can tell the difference between the models and CGI, but like I said it isn't so different it looks bad.

Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
The touch up work on the sabers is garbage. Luke's "blue" sabers in ANH are some what green, and yes I checked the color setting on my TV to make sure, plus I played my VHS real version and they are different.There was no touch-up work done on Luke's lightsaber. The only touch-up work was done in the duel between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan. All other lightsaber bits are untouched.

DK_Viceroy
10-12-2004, 09:55 AM
Perhaps Vostok Your Scholarship would like to Post up a list of what they have Actually Changed so me and My Critique Eye when I Finally get it will know what to look out for and pick to pieces. This Topic is now becomming more of an Ego Show to say who wastes the most amount of time watching the film over and over to look at miniscule details.

When you do that You neglect the story as a whole and that is Blasphemy to Any Star Wars Order.

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2004, 11:34 AM
When you do that You neglect the story as a whole and that is Blasphemy to Any Star Wars Order.No you don't, don't be rediculous. You can't seriously suggest I am neglecting the story of Star Wars as a whole.

The list of changes can be found on many different websites, though I haven't found a fully complete list anywhere. Here's all the ones I know of or have noticed:

A New Hope
- Some shots with the twin suns have been cleaned up.
- Greedo and Han now shoot simultaneously.
- Jabba has been redone in the Special Edition scene to match his appearance in The Phantom Menace.
- The Death Star jail corridor looks a lot longer.
- The trash compactor monster has been altered a bit.
- The English writing on the Death Star tractor beam is now in Star Wars writing (Aurabesh to you EUFans).
- Vader's and Obi-Wan's lightsabers have been redone in their duel.

The Empire Strikes Back:
- The monkey-woman Emperor has been replaced with Ian McDiarmid, complete with some extra lines. My favourite addition.
- Boba Fett's dialogue has been redone by Temeura Morrison.
- Slave 1's engines sound like they do in Attack of the Clones.
- Han Solo's black jacket has been erased in some bits because of an editing mistake.
- Luke's scream that was added in the Special Edition when he falls down the Cloud City core was removed again.

Return Of The Jedi:
- The Rancor scene has been cleaned up tremendously.
- Sebastian Shaw's eyebrows have been erased so Anakin is completely bald. His eyes have also been made blue to match Hayden Christensen's and Jake Lloyd's.
- Naboo is seen celebrating along with the other planets.
- In the shot of Coruscant, the Jedi Temple and Senate Building have been added in the background.
- Hayden Christensen replaces Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's ghost.

There were probably some other minor ones but I can't think of any more right now. I haven't listened to the Audio Commentaries yet, so they may reveal more.

DK_Viceroy
10-12-2004, 12:02 PM
Thank you for that Vostok I however am Now wondering why they put the Jedi Temple in since wouldn't Palpatine have had it destroyed since Not that It's Much Of A Polier But Just In case but everyone knows palpatine says something to the effect of the jedi being enemies wouldn't he have had it demolished and had some Museum or monument to his greatness erected instead?

And i'm not refeering to Eu in this respect I'm referring in terms of common sense.

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2004, 02:01 PM
Well it's quite possible the Jedi Temple was turned into something else like a Sith Temple or something. Palpatine would not have necessarily destroyed it. There might even be an explanation for it in Episode III. I admit it is a little odd though.

EDIT: I just realised by adding the Jedi Temple at the end of Return of the Jedi, George Lucas has once again gone against EU. Why would Luke establish a new Jedi Academy on Yavin 4 when the original one still exists?

swphreak
10-12-2004, 03:26 PM
Much of Coruscant was destroyed during battles... the Conquest of Coruscant, the reconquest of Coruscant by Imperial forces, the re-reconquest by New Republic.

But none of that matters to you, it is EU.

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2004, 04:39 PM
Of course. As the movies now show us, the death of the Emperor was the end of the Empire. The people of Coruscant would not have been able to topple statues of Palpatine if they were still under the control of the Empire.

Just another instance of George Lucas showing his contempt for the EU.

swphreak
10-12-2004, 09:09 PM
And I meant to mention this earlier, I didn't really notice a difference between CGI/Models in space battle scenes... I didn;t know there were any CGI ships.

Admiral Vostok
10-13-2004, 06:27 AM
Yeah, I think the CGI is only obvious if you are intentionally looking for it. If you're watching the battle itself and not just the special effects it looks fine.

lukeiamyourdad
10-13-2004, 07:23 AM
I hear so many kids these days complaining about how ugly the models in the OT are and say that the PT is better because it has "modern" special effects...

Yet I hear no one of them complaining about how ugly other older movies look like...but that's what they are, old movies.
That's what makes their charm, this oldie look to it.
Of course I'm a bit biased since I'm really into old movies and kids these days are so absorbed by CGI and everything...aah the good days of black and white...

Nairb Notneb
10-13-2004, 09:20 AM
Again GL has changed a small bit of the OT to fit his will, for what ever reason. I have said it (posted it is a more accurate term) many times. Lucas is a crazy artist that is forever "tinkering" with his "work of art". When our viewing medium changes again from DVD to whatever comes next, rest assured that he will change the definitive vision once again because he can. It all comes down to him being a marketing genius. He makes a few changes and everybody (including myself) needs to have it because now the light sabers are brighter! What a bunch of "Force" feed sheep we are. Meanwhile, he's rich, powerful and with more wealth than I could possibly imagine, and I can imagine quite a bit let me tell ya.

Oh, Phreak, how could you not know there were CGI ships in the trench run?

As for the Jedi Temple, I think it will be one of those changes that GL has made in order to link ROTS to the rest of the OT, plus this has been discussed in the other forums and I don't feel like doing it again right now, so maybe in about five minutes, I've got a headache.

DK_Viceroy
10-13-2004, 11:49 PM
The Inclusion of the temple will bring more and more questions up especially after ROTS so it'll screw up Continuity like nothing else before it has.

Nairb Notneb
10-14-2004, 02:40 AM
How will it screw up continuity? It will only be a building that is still there. So what?

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 06:58 AM
The only continuity it is screwing up is EU, which as we all know already has screwed-up continuity. Movie continuity is not a problem.

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 07:26 AM
In your own little world keep telling yourselves but when you decide to come back to reality let me know i'll actually take the pair of you seriously

Lord of all purists Hah

more like Purist In denial

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 07:32 AM
Yes, we as a group are in our own little world and you as an individual are the only person in the real world :rolleyes:

Don't make outrageous claims like the Jedi Temple srewing up continuity if you can't back it up.

Nairb Notneb
10-14-2004, 09:20 AM
I'm sorry for the fact that we disagree with each other. I am basing my idea that the movies supersede anything else that claims to be Star Wars on the simple fact that this worlds creator, George Lucas (the true living Force), has made the statement that the facts in the movies supercede all other items if there is a conflict in facts. To me it is an open and shut case and there is no room for discussion.

I don't like the changes GL made to the DVD OT release but does it matter, nope because I am not George Lucas so in reality it doesn't matter what I think about them. The movies are what all Star Wars facts are to be measured by, not EU.

That is the world that I live in.

lukeiamyourdad
10-14-2004, 09:31 AM
This sounds like blind men fighting against other blind men in their own blind world...

And if you want to talk about reality, stop talking about Star Wars ;)

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 10:07 AM
I'll leave him hiding in his cage somewhere then since someone so intractable is obviously not worth the effort and will be summarily ignored.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 10:20 AM
All I ask for is some evidence for your outrageous claim, Viceroy. If you can't provide that then don't start flaming everyone by suggesting we are in our own little world.

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 11:41 AM
My Evidence Is common Sense and if that cant be defined in any clearer Terms then I'm sorry but Common sense is common sense it's an elusive concept that you can't exactly make a poster depicting it.

I Flame no one All I'm saying is I'll leave him in the world he obviously lives in where he thinks Everyone must follow that Ever changing this that is the movies GL may have Created It but each time he makes a special Edition he ruins it and if he's willing to grovel Mindlessly before someone that Has better things to do then Lurk in this forum I'll let him I just won't listen it'll remind me too much of the Gratefully Departed Puzzlebox.

Anyway let's stear clear of this argument starter before someone's feelings get hurt let's talk about something else.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 04:52 PM
Nice comeback :rolleyes: Just admit you have nothing to back up your rediculous claim and drop it already.

Nairb Notneb
10-15-2004, 08:38 AM
Ok Lukesdad, and everyone else that is listening (reading), I hereby announce that Viceroy and I (Nairb Notneb) disagree on which is more correct in the "World of Star Wars", EU or the Movies. I solemnly swear to do my best not to argue about it from this day forth (after this post) because Star Wars is only a movie, a bunch of toys, games, books, etc and is not real. (There I admitted it ok.)

Viceroy, I do not understand why anybody would accept EU "fact" to supersede movie "fact", but that's ok I don't have to because it is not important to anyone except George Lucas and all of his employees or anyone else that makes a living off of the Star Wars franchise in some way. That's reality and I think we all would, could and should agree with that. I have no problem being wrong, I am often wrong, I'm good at it. If I ever all please let me know, politely.

I would like to address an issue though, however.

Viceroy
I Flame no one All I'm saying is I'll leave him in the world he obviously lives in where he thinks Everyone must follow that Ever changing this that is the movies GL may have Created It but each time he makes a special Edition he ruins it and if he's willing to grovel Mindlessly before someone that Has better things to do then Lurk in this forum I'll let him I just won't listen it'll remind me too much of the Gratefully Departed Puzzlebox.

That was kind of difficult to follow lacking punctuation but I believe I got the basic idea. If I'm wrong here please correct me and I will gladly admit my mistake and apologize.

I would agree with you that George Lucas does discredit the argument of the movies being cannon by changing them with every special edition that comes out with a change, even if it is minor. That is one of the reasons I don't like them. I do not "grovel" at the feet of George Lucas or anybody assuming you were directing this statement at me, I am not certain. Also, the one that got to me the most. What makes you say that I "lurk" in this forum? I come here, just as you and everyone else does, to participate in Star Wars related discussions. I understand that I am still new here as I have only been a member since June of this year, but I am not an outcast and this forum belongs to no one else here. These are the Lucas Forums not the Viceroy Forums, nor are they the Notneb Forums.

Now I have agreed to disagree with you on which are cannon, the movies or EU, it is a done matter. We disagree, but don't treat me or anyone else like an inferior because of a disagreement, that is immature and demonstrates a week argument.

DK_Viceroy
10-15-2004, 08:45 AM
I Am the master of the multi Layered Agenda

That statement was designed to see if you bear a similarity to the Gratefully Departed Puzzelbox.

Nairb We all Lurk around here Vostok Lurk's I Lurk Everyone Lurk's

Some people will say hand around some people will say pop in I say Lurk and Linger.

And thank you for agreeing to Disagree If only everyone else would do that and not forever dredge up old arguments.

Ever Since Lucas started changing the films they were no longer Perfect they were no Longer unchangeable and Immutable now the Perfect Star Wars Exists as a form an idea in the world of froms and idea's Now the movie's are only a particular of the idea of star wars like the books are a particular of the form that is star wars and they all Participate in The One.


Platonic or what.


I have never ever said anything to the effect that one is the suprior to the other.

We are all in The cave and only a few can turn around and free themselves with the fascination of the shadows cast by the Ideas and Forms.

Nairb Notneb
10-15-2004, 08:56 AM
Good, as long as we are cool, then we are cool and all is good. I don't think I ever met this Puzzelbox so the comparison is lost on me, sorry.

Your argument with the changing movies is one that I have made in threads of other forums here when I was expressing my dislike for them. Others except them with no problems, I have excepted them begrudgingly because I enjoy the DVD format and I am an enormous Star Wars fan and will always be one. My knowledge is not as vast as others but it is greater than your average bear.

Now I understand that your use of the word Lurk was not directed solely at me and I agree with your last post, we all "lurk" about in these forums, wandering around anonymously, some pretending to be something they are not.

But, one thing is certain, Star Wars rules and I can't wait for May!!

DK_Viceroy
10-15-2004, 09:00 AM
Well naturally we all look forward to May well in my case it';s propably a different date Since we Europeans always get things last despite the fact that Europeans designed the forefathers of most modern weapons.

I however look most forward to February to spend my Christmas Money on a Nintendo DS.

Your right our arguments' are similar except I Couch mine in Platonic thought since so far In Philosophy And Ethics that is the only Philosopher we have studied so far but we've done him in loads of detail strange though how over 35 lessons we've only done one main philosopher and 5 minor ones.




Beleive Me You Are Most Fortunate in not meeting him try Reading through Some of the old threads and you'll find why I hate him with such a vengance and I have a talent of holding Grudges that a Hutt would envy.

Admiral Vostok
10-15-2004, 11:36 AM
Since the issue has come up I thought I'd add my two cents about Special Editions and Canon.

Because George Lucas is making the Special Editions, they thereby become the new Canon. The old versions of the movies are replaced, never to see the light of day again. However were some other party to re-edit Star Wars, it would no longer be Canon: George Lucas, as creator, is the only one who can create Canon.

To those who believe the newer versions of Star Wars aren't canonical, I ask them which version of A New Hope they prefer: Star Wars or A New Hope? Many people don't know this, but when Star Wars was originally released way back in 1977, it did not have the subtitle A New Hope. It started with "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." then went to the STAR WARS logo as usual, but then it went straight into "It is a period of civil war...", there was no "Episode IV: A New Hope". The episode number and subtitle were only added a year later when Star Wars was re-released in 1978. I believe there were several other changes made in addition to this, but this was the most obvious.

So which version is the "original"? The one that appeared for less than a year, or the one that endured for 19 years after that? My point is that even in 1978, George Lucas had already made a "Special Edition" version of A New Hope that audiences around the world have just accepted as the definitive version.

Anyway, just a little food for though, especially since Viceroy seems to be getting overly philosophical on us recently.


Now, slightly back on topic, I have a little easter egg that owners of the DVDs may be interested in. On the Special Features disc, go to the Photo Galleries and Games menu, the one with Luke training with the remote on the Millennium Falcon in the background. Now type in 1138. You may have to do it differently on different DVD players; on mine I had to type in 11 followed by 3, then 8. After you've done it a little box next to Artoo lights up. If you press Enter whilst the box is highlighted, it plays the DVD credits with bloopers from all three of the movies. Some are quite amusing.

DK_Viceroy
10-15-2004, 12:16 PM
When Have i ever said anything that is remotely Cut and Dry. Of course it's been a gradual Transition from being literal but I will still cut to the heart of the point.

To answer that Vostok Only the Originals are Cannon because then they were perfect but the second they released The special editions they were no longer perfect and no longer cannon Cannon does not replace another Cannon.

Therefore the Movies are not eternal and not immutable they are no longer the Ideal star wars for now the Ideal Star Wars The Perfect Star Wars Exists in the world of ideas as a form an idea.

The Movies are particulars which partake of the Idea of star wars and the Star warsiness the EU is immutable because you don't release special edition's of a book, well rarely and then their usually collections of book's with no changes.

That makes the EU perfect because it is immutable Unchanging it Partakes Of star Warsiness as an idea a form and indeed Is more true to the Idea of star wars then the Movies and their Many Special editions they partake of the Idea of star wars yes they are one particular facet of the idea that is star wars, but because of these special editions the movies are no longer Immutable and therefore not perfect.

Therefore not cannon because you can say but ah this edition says this and this edition has that. They all partake of the Idea of star wars but star wars as a perfect idea or an ideal no longer exists in the mortal world it exists in the world of ideas and the idea of star wars partakes of The One.

lukeiamyourdad
10-15-2004, 12:23 PM
Seriously Viceroy use frigging punctuation.

Looking at your posts makes my eyes hurt and it's not a good thing when trying to show your arguments if they're unreadable.

DK_Viceroy
10-15-2004, 12:40 PM
Ah But remeber Punctuation is A Particular of the Idea that Is Puctuation there is no such thing as perfect Punctuation only The One is perfect and the ideas and forms are perfect also but to a lesser extent.

Admiral Vostok
10-15-2004, 01:17 PM
There is such a thing as perfect punctuation, and while you probably can't hope to achieve it you should at least aim for some punctuation. Allow me to impart a few words of wisdom about punctuation and sentence structure. If your sentence is longer than thirty words it is too long and must be broken into smaller sentences. Take that advice and your English grades may improve somewhat.

Now, back on topic, I didn't have the discipline to read your post fully because as Luke's Dad says it hurts the eyes. Just a few points you should note:

Immutability does not imply perfection.
Immutability has nothing to do with Canon.
The EU is not immutable (For an example of this refer to the character of Jaster Mareel pre- and post-prequels).
Canon IS the movies and nothing else, no matter how you twist your logic.

Kryllith
10-18-2004, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Allow me to impart a few words of wisdom about punctuation and sentence structure. If your sentence is longer than thirty words it is too long and must be broken into smaller sentences. Take that advice and your English grades may improve somewhat.

While I agree with the need for punctuation, given that I taught college English for several years, this idea about a sentence being too long if it's more than thirty words is bull. For example, my last sentence was thirty three words in length and is easily understandable. However, if someone is writing excessively long sentences without any form of punctuation, then something should be done to break it into more manageable pieces. Even then it doesn't require separating it into individual sentences; a few commas, hyphens, parentheses, or a well-placed semi-colon can do the trick.

On Topic:

The only difference I recall between the original theatrical release and the re-release is the addition of the subtitle, which Lucas added since it was obvious he could create the followup movies. As for whether canon can be overwritten, Lucas has the ability to change the canon if he so choose because, let's face it, it's his baby. We may not like individual changes, and a fair number might believe that George has taken a leave of his senses, but it's still his work to do with as he wishes.

Kryllith

DK_Viceroy
10-18-2004, 09:47 AM
Or as everyone else says

To Ruin As He pleases Himself But Not everyone else.

Admiral Vostok
10-18-2004, 01:50 PM
OFF TOPIC:While I agree with the need for punctuation, given that I taught college English for several years, this idea about a sentence being too long if it's more than thirty words is bull.Of course there is no maximum length for a sentence. I just thought since Viceroy seems to have such a problem with it I'd give him a tip that my 8th Grade English teacher told us, rather than get into the technicalities of more advanced English that a college-level educator such as yourself might impart. After all, you must learn to crawl before you can walk.

ON TOPIC:The only difference I recall between the original theatrical release and the re-release is the addition of the subtitle, which Lucas added since it was obvious he could create the followup movies.Indeed, but my point is still relevant. Lucas added the subtitle in 1978 after the movie was a success since the studio in 1977 would not allow it; they thought the addition of a subtitle and episode number in particular would be way too confusing. Having listened to the A New Hope audio commentary yesterday, Lucas goes on to mention that he at first never meant to fill in the first three Episodes, he instead wanted to create the Saturday matinee feel with the episode number so it was like you'd come into the theatre and missed last weeks episode so had to figure out everything that was going on yourself.

But at any rate, I personally don't see how a seemingly minor change like this is any different from, say, the inclusion of the new Jabba the Hutt scene in A New Hope. Another thing evident from the audio commentaries was that Lucas had filmed this scene for the 1977 release, but he wanted Jabba the Hutt to be some kind of stop-motion character in the scene. The budget was already stretched, and since the scene only mattered for the trilogy as a whole and was not necessary for A New Hope by itself it could be dropped.

But getting to my point, is there really any difference from the inclusion of the subtitle and episode number (something Lucas wanted to include but couldn't because of studio requests) to the inclusion of the Jabba the Hutt scene (something Lucas wanted to include but couldn't because of money shortage)? Personally I don't believe so. If Lucas had have waited until 1997 to include the subtitle and episode number rather than done it in 1978, I believe that it too would be reviled as Lucas "unnecessarily" tweaking his movies.

lukeiamyourdad
10-18-2004, 03:04 PM
Just some funny facts, the actor who played the "original" Jabba the Hutt was just a big Irish guy. Didn't feel like Jabba at all.

General Nitro
11-13-2004, 01:28 PM
The big Irish guy? Was that the guy wearing the monkey suit with no mask?

DK_Viceroy
11-13-2004, 01:45 PM
*Whacks Vostok over the head with a stick*

My punctuation and it's Ilk have been fine lately.

I don't know why everyone is complaining these days I really don't know.

General Nitro
11-13-2004, 02:58 PM
Punctuation might be good, but the spelling is another story ("ilkd").

DK_Viceroy
11-13-2004, 03:19 PM
It's called a TYPO we can't all be like you Nitro and be perfect.

At least I post frequently instead of running off to Iraq or some other hellish place every week or other.

swphreak
11-13-2004, 03:45 PM
Ok, DK, you really need to stop it.

Everyone needs to stop bugging DK about his language skills. You don't have to read his posts.

DK, you need to quit being sarcastic when it offends some people.

We need to chill out. The new RTS was finally announced. Let's all get drunk and pass out on top of each other.

General Nitro
11-13-2004, 03:56 PM
I agree with Phreak on this one.

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 12:59 AM
Anyway I just saw some of the Deleted scenes from Ep's 1 and 2 I don't get why they were cut in some cases it was just length but a few minutes here and there wouldn't have made a huge differnce.

saberhagen
11-23-2004, 02:42 AM
Cos they were totally superfluous and sometimes ridiculous? I mean, the waterfall scene. Why??? What made them even want to shoot it?

OTOH, there is part of a deleted scene which should have been left in as it explains why Qui Gonn and Anakin were already running before they saw Darth Maul coming.

I haven't even watched the AOTC deleted scenes. I've probably said this before, but how bad must a scene have to be to get cut from AOTC? ;)

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 03:43 AM
I think they could have added in the Jedi Starfighter Hangar scene and the Iterrorgation + Trial scene those would have added a little more atmosphere sintead of them going from being captured to being Executed I like the Trial scene and Poggle's line about being Builders of Weapons so they have no worries.