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Darth Windu
10-02-2004, 09:03 PM
Hi folks. Looking at my SWGB2 template, i have decided that each commander (general) needs a unique unit to further differentiate them from each other. What i was wondering is, does anyone have any ideas as to what these units could be? So far, i have-

Republic
- Mace Windu (Jedi) - TX130 fighter tank (from 'Clone Wars' game)
- Obi Wan Kenobi (Combined Arms) - Clone Lancers (from 'Clone Wars' series)

Empire
- Admiral Piett (Aircraft) - TIE Advanced (Episode IV)

and thats about all i've come up with so far. Any suggestions?

DK_Viceroy
10-03-2004, 04:53 AM
Perhaps you could try and have more than one uniqye unit perhaps at least 3 a pair of unqiue structures and several upgrades since that would certainly help differntiate.

Can you list the Commanders and their specialities for each civ you've got and i'll give you some ideas.

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 09:52 AM
Yeah, I think the day of civs being made different by the inclusion of a single unique unit went with Rise of Nations. But if you still want to do so, at least list all the Generals you've got as Viceroy said.

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 10:27 AM
Yes. The this brings up the question of a Generals-ripoff. I didn't include Generals in my design because not only are they a ripoff of C&C Generals, but to be honest I don't think they are all that relevant to Star Wars. Let's face it, although you can shoehorn characters in Star Wars into specialities (Piett is Admiral of the Death Fleet... which is in space... therefore his speciality is Aircraft), for the most part the major factions fight in the same way no matter who is in command of the forces. Was Admiral Ackbar's assault on the Second Death Star really that tactically different to General Dodonna's assault on the First Death Star? No. Although Ackbar had Capital Ships at his disposal, the assault was mainly in the form of one-man fighters, the same as it was at Yavin.

So what I'm asking is this: are you including Generals in your design to better represent the Star Wars Universe, or are you including Generals in your design because it was a fun idea in Command and Conquer?

DK_Viceroy
10-03-2004, 10:33 AM
I didn't post anything like that so why bring up a pointless debate. If each of the generals is totally unique and is woreked with carefully it can use a similar system but not be seen as the same.

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 10:37 AM
I never said you posted anything like that. I'm bringing up my old argument against Generals. Why bother including Generals when it doesn't really fit with the Star Wars Universe?

DK_Viceroy
10-03-2004, 10:42 AM
Becayse that seems to be the way most RTS's are going and we've already said that ours is subtly different and also because it hasn't been tried in the star wars context so HOW do you know it isn't true. You did agree a while ago because it helped give a sense of scale and that is the reason I think they should be in.

Admiral Vostok
10-03-2004, 11:39 AM
It isn't different enough to be not seen as a ripoff. So why add it in, when it doesn't make sense in the Star Wars context, when it will be seen as "just another game adding in Generals"?

Darth Windu
10-03-2004, 10:43 PM
Viceroy - there is no way that i could possibly give each commander 3 unique units and two unique structures. One is hard enough.

Vostok - i added them for a number of reasons, but mainly so the game has a greater re-play value. After all, there is only so many times you can play a game until there is nothing new anymore, but with four different commanders for each of the five civs, there will be a greater re-play value.
As for reflecting SW, it does somewhat, in that each Commander/General/Admiral have their own strategy and area of expertise. Even looking at it as not promoting or reflecting SW, it doesnt take anything away and gives the extra re-play value.

As for the Commanders, they are
Confederacy
- OOM-9 (Mech)
- General Grievous (Combined Arms)

Republic
- Obi Wan Kenobi (Combined Arms)
- Mace Windu (Jedi)
- Yoda (Offence)
- Saesee Tiin (Aircraft)

Empire
- Darth Vader (Combined Arms)
- Admiral Piett (Aircraft)
- General Veers (Mechs)
- Admiral Ozzel (Defence)

Rebellion
- Admiral Ackbar (Aircraft)
- General Madine (Intelligence)
- General Rieekan (Defence)
- Luke Skywalker (Combined Arms)

Naboo
- Padme Amidala (Combined Arms)
- Jar Jar Binks (Luck)
- Captain Tarpals (Mechs)
- Captain Panaka (Infantry)

saberhagen
10-04-2004, 03:53 AM
Yeah, having Jar Jar as a general is going to be really popular... ;)

Darth Windu
10-04-2004, 04:08 AM
Regardless of the popularity of Jar Jar, he is a major, even pivotal, character in the SW saga, so he should be included.

FroZticles
10-04-2004, 04:15 AM
I see Vostok's point it does look like another rip-off since its what Windu does best. This would not give it replay value because sites like gamespy etc would see right through the game and know its a Generals copy.

Viceroy enough is enough every point Vostok has to say you shoot down, this whole thing is very tired. I now think you disagree with him just because you have a grudge don't like his views so you just attack every post he makes. I'm not defending Vostok but I'm just sick of the post wars you guys have every thread....

DK_Viceroy
10-04-2004, 04:15 AM
How about General Poggle and Sev'rance Tann as other generals or perhaps Assajj Ventress she certainly did some military commanding. for her you could have Exotic Technology as her speciality

It's perfecdtly possible to create those windu i'll give some examples.

For admiral Ozzel you could give him a Huge Sheild Projector that could give all his units sheilding and you could have a Special type of Defense Turret

and for reiken You could have a Forward Command Post that when near trench system gives all units a bonus to all stats. you could also have a Medical Center that heals all Biological units when they are nearby.

See windu it's easy

Wouldn't having a few Defensive commanders lead to turtling?

pbguy1211
10-04-2004, 03:39 PM
Well, as far as who said what and what belongs to what thread/post, I could care less.

That being said, a new RTS will be NOTHING like the old one. Just look at some of the new ones out there and the ones coming out soon. I think being able to "buy" heroes and build them up will be a huge part to any new RTS. And the building up of "force points" (fate points, earned via battle) will be key as well. Units are great and all, but give me a hero to build up and whomp on you with any day!

Bring on the Battle for Middle-earth goddamnit! ;) 11/15 can't come soon enough!!

FroZticles
10-04-2004, 06:47 PM
Well I don't know how they could add heroes in SW what happens when they die... I bet they just pass it off and you clone them when they die but cloning is not as big in the galaxy as most of these new games make it out to be. I don't think Jedi even would even like being cloned seeing as they are one with the force and all. But for gameplay I guess I'll accept it.

I'll buy B4ME upon or close to release it just looks awesome but since I don't have cable back yet I'll wait till January before I play it online. Even though I'm still a little worried about the balance.

Americans are very confused people don't they know day comes before the month :p

DK_Viceroy
10-05-2004, 12:37 AM
In some respects I agree with Vostok I just disagree with his arguments against the Commander system If I argued like that with him do you really think he and I would make such a good team in the forum games?

DK_Viceroy
10-05-2004, 02:21 AM
You get just enough from the movies to establish the new villain's role and importance. The EU, of course, will flesh things out with George's blessing. -PH

I think we should however leave Classing General Grevious as a certain type of general until evertyhing comes out including the EU which from that quote is going to be critical and with George Lucas's blessing so there'll be some EU immune from purist arguments i never would have thought that.

anyway

Republic
- Obi Wan Kenobi (Combined Arms)
- Mace Windu (Jedi)
- Yoda (Offence)
- Saesee Tiin (Aircraft)

Empire
- Darth Vader (Combined Arms)
- Admiral Piett (Aircraft)

For Piett you could replace his airfeild with an advanced airfield that is armed heavily armouer and has sheilding. For a unique structure he could have a Starfighter Command which would boost all of his fighters and bombers by making them faster more manoeverable and cost less. you could also give him the TIE Scimtar Bomber and perhaps instead of getting walkers he could get the TIE Crawler and he could perhaps get the Insanely expensive TIE Defender {the starfighter command would reduce the cost but not so it can be whored that is unless your economy is in increadibly good shape}

- General Veers (Mechs)
- Admiral Ozzel (Defence)

Rebellion
- Admiral Ackbar (Aircraft)
- General Madine (Intelligence)
- General Rieekan (Defence)
- Luke Skywalker (Combined Arms)



I'll edit this post when i have more time.

Admiral Vostok
10-05-2004, 11:22 AM
As Froz said, having multiple Generals certainly won't improved replayability. It's true game reviewers will shoot it down pre-emptively. But what do you base the argument of more Generals = more replayability on, Windu? Zero Hour has heaps of different generals and isn't any more replayable. In fact I haven't even played as some of the Generals in that game but it is already tired.

As pbguy said, I think Heroes are more important than Generals. Especially in a Star Wars game, where Heroes are the major part of the movies. Froz, when it comes to Heroes dying in the game, perhaps they can't be rebuilt? I'm not sure how Hero deaths are dealt with in BfME, but presumably a similar approach would be suitable for Star Wars. Don't forget the Hero may not even necessarily die; they're just taken out of action for a period of time, recover in a bacta tank and soon look strong enough to pull the ears of a Gundark.

Viceroy, I think Windu is hesitant to make up so many units because he's trying to preserve the Star Wars feel.

DK_Viceroy
10-05-2004, 01:12 PM
he could always look to EU since that's what most people have done here to pad out their templates afterr much frantic searching in the films for a glimpse oir a glimmer of a unit idea.

The sheild projector idea was in the films except it was a sheild being projewcted to the death star I can however imagine that it could be done on something moving like the system in the first NJO book.

pbguy1211
10-05-2004, 06:35 PM
Well, some aspects of B4Me seem to take aspects of War of the Ring. In scenario's you can start with heroes. If they die, sometimes you can "rebuy" them. In your "CC" you can buy heroes. But not with $$$. With Fate points. Fate points are awarded for battling. And certain hereos are worth more fate points. Also, you upgrade your heroes by having them battle more. Ex: my fighting Gandalf will whoop on your Saruman who you hide in your base because his levels will increase. Fate points can also be used to upgrade your heroes unique abilities. Wizards get spells. Aragorn uses ethelas to heal people, etc...

This "General" crap will never fly. Who knows who the hell a Piet is anyway? And more importantly, who cares. You can't micro the game with a unit no one knows or cares about. It's not worth it.

Admiral Vostok
10-05-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by pbguy1211
You can't micro the game with a unit no one knows or cares about. It's not worth it.Exactly. I don't understand how Windu can believe that a single unique unit and a few bonuses here and there will increase replayability. It won't.

Darth Windu
10-05-2004, 08:46 PM
I believe adding Commanders will increase re-playability because, ideally, each commander will play in a different way to the other commanders, and hence keep the game interesting for longer. As for ZH, i cant comment because i've never played it.

As for Unique Units, Vostok is correct. While it would be possible to give each commander 3 unique units each, it really would diminish the SW feel of the game and once you get too many units, people just dont care what they are sending into battle any more. Actually, thinking about that, i may try to reduce the number of units each side has...

Admiral Vostok
10-06-2004, 07:53 AM
Well theoretically different Commanders should increase replayability. But in practice it would seem this is not the case. Zero Hour made the Generals far more diverse than you are planning on making yours, and it didn't increase replayability much at all. The only way Commanders could improve replayability is if they made each civ hugely unique like in Age of Mythology, but going to that much uniqueness will ruin the Star Wars feel.

So in conclusion I don't think Commanders/Generals are a good idea.

Darth Windu
10-07-2004, 03:03 AM
Well i completely disagree Vostok. From what i have seen of ZH, the bonuses i am looking at are more diverse and are of greater value, and in terms of units, ZH only really gave modified units, whereas i am giving completely unique units.

Aside from that, even if the idea doesnt work as well as i think it will, it won't have taken anything away from the game so there is no reason not to include Commanders.

FroZticles
10-07-2004, 05:50 AM
ZH gave alot of new units, you can't judge on a game you never played. I still don't see how this will work. Balancing 20 different commanders, bonuses and units won't be easy at all.

This idea will take more then it will give. Generals made a huge mistake by adding 9 new general civs into the game when the 3 they currently had were not balanced at all. Forget the star wars feel, I think this will ruin gameplay you cannot balance all those generals in an already unbalanced template.

saberhagen
10-07-2004, 07:18 AM
The thing that most influences replayability is how many other people are playing the game. That depends on getting it well balanced and having MP that works properly, preferably with ratings built into the game.

Darth Windu
10-07-2004, 07:27 AM
It wont be that hard to balance, as long as the civs themselves are balanced correctly.

As for unique units, remember that im not arbitrarily adding UU's, i am adding Commander-specific UU's. For example, General Windu, and only General Windu will have access to the TX-130 Fighter Tank.

Admiral Vostok
10-07-2004, 09:50 AM
Aside from that, even if the idea doesnt work as well as i think it will, it won't have taken anything away from the game so there is no reason not to include Commanders.I might not take anything away from the game, but by the same token it doesn't add anything:

REALISM: No realism is added because in the Star Wars movies Generals/Commanders don't specialise in different types of warfare.
GAMEPLAY: No gameplay is added because as Zero Hour has shown us more civs does not equal more replayability. Like saberhagen said, a properly balanced game with good multiplayer will have the most replayability, and the more civ variations you add the greater the chances of unbalancing the game and creating bad multiplayer.

If you aren't gaining much from adding them why waste the time and money on implementing them? Instead it would be better to add easy modability like the Generals engine so people can tinker and add new units to their heart's content. In fact it should be noted that the only thing giving a breath of life to Generals now is it's great modding potential.

DK_Viceroy
10-07-2004, 10:24 AM
I actually like ZH but it should have been the original Generals Personally I think LA would be wise to take the best bits out of every game and do some experimentation and be bold but most importantly release a Beta to the star wars community { Namely Us } to prevent a Force Commander 2

Darth Windu
10-07-2004, 08:15 PM
Well i disagree Vostok, i think it will add a great deal to the game by increasing replay value.

As for the realism sector, are you serious? So it must be a coincidence then that Admirals Ackbar, Piett and Ozzel command starships while Generals Veers, Riekaan and Solo command ground forces. Yep, sure sounds like Commanders in SW dont have specialities :rolleyes:

As for gameplay, mine is different from ZH and hence your example does not apply.

Anyway, this still hasnt gotten me any more ideas of what i can use for UU's. Come on people, there must be some ideas floating around out there!

lukeiamyourdad
10-07-2004, 08:30 PM
How can people come up with ideas for something they disagree with ?:rolleyes:

DK_Viceroy
10-08-2004, 01:34 AM
Am I invisible or just un-apreciated I came up with some ideas or does NO ONE read posts around here anymore?

Darth Windu
10-08-2004, 02:56 AM
Luke -im not asking if you agree or not, im asking if you have any ideas for Cspecific UU's

Viceroy - you havent posted any ideas...

FroZticles
10-08-2004, 04:00 AM
Windu you keep saying this idea will increase replay value but there is nothing to suggest it will. I loved RA2 and Generals but the game style is not multiplayer material which is the direction your taking this template.

I think most of the board disagrees with the idea except maybe viceroy.

saberhagen
10-08-2004, 04:10 AM
Even for single player I don't think generals will increase replay value that much. For SP the most important thing for replay value is AI. There's no point playing again with another general if you know you can beat the computer without trying.

DK_Viceroy
10-08-2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
How about General Poggle and Sev'rance Tann as other generals or perhaps Assajj Ventress she certainly did some military commanding. for her you could have Exotic Technology as her speciality

It's perfecdtly possible to create those windu i'll give some examples.

For admiral Ozzel you could give him a Huge Sheild Projector that could give all his units sheilding and you could have a Special type of Defense Turret

and for reiken You could have a Forward Command Post that when near trench system gives all units a bonus to all stats. you could also have a Medical Center that heals all Biological units when they are nearby.

See windu it's easy

Wouldn't having a few Defensive commanders lead to turtling?

Are those Idea's or does your definition of Ideas differ to everyone elses?

saberhagen
10-08-2004, 10:26 AM
And who would want to play as somoene called Poggle?

Darth Windu
10-09-2004, 07:53 PM
Viceroy - i asked for ideas for Unique Units, not buildings - there actually is a difference

Saber - i certainly wouldnt, which is why he isnt in my template. Apart from that, in my template the Geonosians arent part of the Confederacy, therefore there wouldnt be any Geonosian Commanders

FroZ - there is a lot to suggest it. As long as the civs are properly balanced and the Commanders are significantly different, there will be a great deal of re-play value. Besides, if it doesnt work, nothing has been lost

FroZticles
10-10-2004, 12:17 AM
Ok since your so set on them I'll try to help out but I'll just help with what you have I don't feel like thinking of unique units.

Explain and be a little more creative with your bonuses. As it stands now your generals only give bonuses it would be a lot better if they gained research and a few units and maybe one or 2 bonuses. Not like this though...

Admiral Piett Aircraft all Aircraft gain Firepower, Cost, Build Time, Armour, Speed and Line-of-Sight bonuses, but with detriments in the same categories for Infantry, Mechs and Structures

I could create a general who excels in walls and he would still be the most creative general out of all of yours. Very generic and boring, explain more and maybe a brief history about them to save some of us the time to run to the databank so we can find out who half of these generals are.

Darth Windu
10-10-2004, 07:02 PM
FroZ - differentiating the Commanders is exactly what im trying to do. To use the example of Admiral Piett, as it stands, he gets lots of bonuses in terms of firepower, hitpoints, cost etc for all aircraft, while ground units and structures and more expensive and weaker. While this does give some uniqueness, i also want to add a UU, such as the TIE Advanced (Ep4) to give Piett something no-one else has. As for research, i could easily include cheaper aircraft research.

For explaining the Commanders better, all im really trying to do is explain what they do, and all of my Commanders are in the films anyway, so there is really no need for elaboration.

Admiral Vostok
10-11-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
there is a lot to suggest it.Like what? As I said Zero Hour, which is the closest thing to what you are suggesting, did not improve replayability by having Generals.

As for the realism sector, are you serious? So it must be a coincidence then that Admirals Ackbar, Piett and Ozzel command starships while Generals Veers, Riekaan and Solo command ground forces. Yep, sure sounds like Commanders in SW dont have specialitiesBy your own example you've demonstrated what I mean. Admiral Ackbar, Piett and Ozzel are naval officers. As such they do not command ground forces, so realistically should not be selectable Commanders in a ground-based RTS game. What you should be demonstrating is how General Rieekan's strategies are any different from General Madine's. Just because Madine used an infiltration team doesn't make him a Stealth General; Rieekan would have used the same tactics if he was overseeing the ground forces on Endor, in the same way that Madince would not have used infiltrating strike teams on Hoth.

DK_Viceroy
10-12-2004, 12:39 AM
Vostok your overlooking Reality as well.

Several Generals do have unique Strategies and they use what they have in different and unique ways and this is for reality.

Would you say German Tactics would be the same as French or British yet they're all part of the EU so you could count them as sperate generals.

Also in the games we even said if we were made generals what specialities we would have.

Saber with confed was mechs

Myself with Confed was Troopers

see different people will use different tactics even if they use the same units.

Darth Windu
10-12-2004, 03:46 AM
Vostok - it will be different enough to ensure slightly different playing styles, which means replay value.

As for Generals and Admirals, i'll give you some real world examples-

Admiral Fletcher - Destroyer Admiral
General Patton - Armour General
General Guderian - Armour General
Admiral Nimitz - Fleet Admiral (Carriers)
General LeMay - Bomber General

As viceroy pointed out, military leaders often have specialities that define how they will fight a battle. Just look at the commander of US SOCOM. Any battles fought by that general would use stealth and small numbers of highly trained infantry.

saberhagen
10-12-2004, 04:46 AM
Individual generals do have their own favourite strategies, tactics and styles of fighting. But isn't it up to the player to decide that? It won't improve playability to have your options limited by the character you're playing as.

DK_Viceroy
10-12-2004, 08:54 AM
Yes it will because they'll pick the Commander that best suits there style that is the whole point you don't pick the tank general which would have Aircraft Negative modifiers and less air units if your an air whore and neither would you do the reverse.

How many people forget common sense.

A Few other Real World Examples.

General Erwin Rommel - Tactical Supremacy

General Bernard Montgomery - Numerical Superiority

Good examples windu

Admiral Vostok
10-12-2004, 09:44 AM
If you're going to use real-world examples, let me stress my point by doing the same. I'm no military history buff, so the only real-world General you've mentioned above that I'm familiar with is Patton. You say he is an "Armour General", Windu, and it is true he used tanks to great success. But did he have any better tanks than anyone else - in game terms, did he have tank bonuses? No. He got the same things all the other Generals in the army got, he just used them to different effect.

But I prefer using Star Wars examples rather than real-world examples. I believe in your design General Madine is a stealth and/or espionage General. It's true that he used stealth for the Endor Strike Team. But would he have used the same tactic if he was in charge on Hoth instead of Rieekan? Could he have used stealth and espionage to win that battle?

No.

As Saberhagen said, different strategies should be up to the player, not to what General they chose.

Vostok - it will be different enough to ensure slightly different playing styles, which means replay value.Again that sounds reasonable, but looking at the evidence we have it is just not the case. When I asked for what evidence you had to suggest Generals provide replayability, I didn't want speculation.

Darth Windu
10-13-2004, 01:30 AM
Vostok - in terms of generals, you are quite correct, Patton's tanks were the same as all other US generals. But because he had greater tactical ability with tanks, he was able to achieve more with them. Therefore, bonuses are given in the game to simulate this tactical ability - for example, with aircraft, think of it as having better C2 and better pilots.

As for Madine, have you even considered that that is why he wasnt in comand at Hoth?

I'm not trying to stifle player tactics, nor would this concept do that, it just gives players the option to play with slightly different variations of their favourite civ. For example, if you love Jedi, you would play as General Windu because he gets Jedi bonuses, which go to your style of play. If you like to sneak around, you would play as General Madine, and if you love air-whoring, you would play as Admiral Ackbar, Admiral Piett or Saesee Tiin. (actually im thinking of replacing Ackbar with Calrissian, but keeping the bonuses the same)

Admiral Vostok
10-13-2004, 07:48 AM
But because he had greater tactical ability with tanks, he was able to achieve more with them.Exactly. But surely tactical ability is best represented by the player's tactical ability, and not through bonuses.

Another factor to consider in the argument is this: research. Personally, I like the myriad research options available in SWGB, and I find it helps with replayability. You research the various different things when you need them, which may be different every game. For example in a game against an air-strong civ you'll focus on anti-air technologies, while against an infantry-strong civ you'd research anti-infantry techs. Generals, on the other hand, only has at most a dozen technologies to research, which for the most part are always researched in the same order making for less variation and therefore less replayability. Then we have Windu's no-brainer approach, where you don't even select technologies to research, they just research themselves, which I think seriously decreases replayability.

So taking this into consideration, perhaps Generals/Commanders would be an okay idea for Windu's design: it's the only way a person is going to be able to focus tactical ability.

To demonstrate my point, consider this. I am undeniably an air whore. When playing SWGB, I often neglect some technologies in favour of researching those that will make my aircraft better. It is through research that tactical abilities can focus. As Naboo I have strong Air and Jedi, but often I don't research much Jedi techs at all, instead focussing on Air. Conversely, I could chose not to go with air and might go with Jedi instead. In this case I wouldn't research many air technologies and would instead focus on Jedi techs.

In Windu's approach, people cannot do this. They are stuck with the build order and research order because of his research system. Sure, I can put more credits into the technology areas to make it research faster, but because I can't pick and chose technologies I'll have to get both air technologies and Jedi technologies whether I want both or not. As such, players cannot specialise their researching and thus tactical ability. Everything gets researched whether you want it or not.

If Windu's design were to be used, it seems the only way a person possibly could specialise their tactical ability is by choosing the relevant Commander. There isn't a good way to specialise in Air unless you choose Admiral Ackbar. There isn't a good way to specialise in Jedi unless you chose Mace Windu.

So what I'm saying is that in a game with a decent research and technology system (for example, SWGB) Generals don't add much since you can already specialise in different areas through your research. But in Windu's system where you have absolutely no freedom in your research order, Commanders are the only way a player can possibly specialise in any one area. So Windu, Commanders will work well in your system but only because it is inherently flawed through the research system so as to limit players options if they don't chose a specialist Commander.

Darth Windu
10-14-2004, 03:31 AM
Actually Vostok, that is quite untrue. In terms of my research, there are different sub-disciplines that you can research. For example, by turning on 'advanced options', you can choose to direct research into infantry, mechs or aircraft, rather than just military. So, if you wanted to specialise in Aircraft, you would play, for example, as Admiral Ackbar, and using 'advanced options' put a lot of credits into aircraft research.

I should also point out that players could challenge themselves by, for example, trying to beat their opponents with mainly aircraft while playing as General Veers etc.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 08:12 AM
Well that's slightly better but still not as good as the current system. For example, in your system you still can't specialise between fighters and bombers. I know sometimes I'll leave all my bomber research until after I've done all my fighter research, but sometimes (if my opponent calls for it) I'll research bombers and fighters at the same time. Again, you're system doesn't allow for this flexibility.

Don't get me wrong, the "Commanders" model doesn't necessarily fail. Age of Mythology is a great game and uses a kind of Commanders model in the form of the Major Gods. However, the different Major Gods are remarkably different so as to justifiably be a civ in their own right. They have multiple unique units, several unique technologies and even some unique abilities like Poseidon's militia or Set's animals. To top it off, all the civs are intricately balanced so there is no rock-paper-scissors when it comes to civs.

The different Generals in Zero Hour are quite a step down from AoM. Each General will have at most two unique units, and perhaps two unique techs. They'll have some decent unique abilities like the toxin guns or laser defenses. However, the civs are even more unbalanced than the vanilla factions. The rock-paper-scissors problem is heavily in effect: it is virtually impossible for the US Aircraft General to defeat the Chinese Infantry General if they each play to their strengths.

Then we have Windu's model which is yet another step down. A single unique unit for each civ, no unique techs at all (due to the crappy research system) and extremely minor unique abilities. Age of Mythology was great, Zero Hour less so, so logic dictates that Windu's Commanders model will suffer incredibly, especially if compared to the Commander models that have come before.

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 08:24 AM
Okay then I've Played A Game with a system similar to what Windu describes i can't remeber what it was actually called.

Windu would you allow several projects to be researhed at once and split the creits you put into them.?

Would you have Specific Catagories for Research Like Bomber Research Fighter Research Advanced Infantry Weapons Research-(Rebels Only) Advanced Medh Research (Empire Only)-Gyro Stabilisation Research-(For Walker Mechs) Advanced Droid Research-(Confederacy Only) Advanced Cloning Research-(Republic Only)

Does Each area have a fixed cost to research can you order double Money and double the speed of research but double the cost?

For the Interface will you have a quick Research Interfarce like in imperium Galactica 2 which i'll explain in the main interface there is a lightning bolt which you can click on and this brings up a quiick menu under Spaceships Buildings and Tanks and each has a project you can put finds into while each gives no description aprat from at the bottom of the menu a cost instead you could have Aircraft Reserach Ground Forces Reseach and Buidlings Research and in those have breakdwons there.

If you answer those questions you'll have answered most of Vostok's

While Vostok asks vague question that rarely indicate what Answer he wants I cut straight to the point and get the answer I want.

It is possible to balance 4 civ's with commanders Vostok let's bring your own Example out of the Cupboard and present AoM it's generally balanced. Give windu the benefit of the doubt Give him ideas and examples don't falme his idea since It looks pretty good now opposed to yours Vostok which gets worse with each revision indeed the one you had quite a while ago was far superior indeed the best feature out of yours is that Advanced Tactics.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 08:36 AM
You'll note I never said Windu's idea could not be balanced. Just because Zero Hour was poorly balanced doesn't necessarily mean Windu's will be, and in fact since the unique elements of his Commanders are so minor it will be quite easy to balance. All I said was the Commander system will not be as great a gameplay device as Windu envisions.

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 08:43 AM
There is such a Saying as

Less Is More

I think it will be possible and Why don't you dish out some ideas then since that's what the topic of the thread is I'm coming up with some myself.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 08:53 AM
Well it's hard to dish out ideas for something you don't agree with.

Less is More? As in less trying to shoehorn in a Commanders model is more faithful to the Star Wars movies and more likely not to be seen as an under-developed rip-off and more tactical flexibility in the game?

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 08:57 AM
Who Said YOU HAD to like it Everyone Does thinsg even though they don't like it.

Stuff Happens Get Over it

and what I actually Meant was Less Units Could Actually Lead to More Diversity.

Less Time Complaining And Flaming Is More Time Making Ideas And CONSTRUCTIVE Comments and CONSTRUCTIVE Criticisms.

lukeiamyourdad
10-14-2004, 10:27 AM
I have not yet seen any flaming in Vostok's comments. It's criticism. If you think that's flaming, you really need to learn how to take criticism from other people...


I said it before and Vostok said it again, it's quite hard for someone to come up with ideas for something they don't agree with.

If I was anti-Bush, how would you want me to find ideas that would help his campaign?

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 11:06 AM
I remeber others doing him the courtesy oif helping him with his template when they didn't like it Vostok to not do otherwise is hypocritical

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 11:18 AM
Indeed, people did do me the courtesy of helping with my template. I have done the same to Windu by telling him to drop the Commander system.

When people commented on my design they didn't say "I don't like the fact you've separated the Geonosians and Confederacy, so why don't you give them huge advantages when allied?" they said "put the Geonosians back with the Confederacy".

Why would I suggest something I didn't believe was a good idea? Any units I would suggest to Windu would not be what I think is best, as he's already got all the units I like included. So I won't suggest rubbish for the sake of having something to suggest.

DK_Viceroy
10-14-2004, 12:35 PM
On the Subject of Your template have you given up on your Xenophobia against the Geonosians yet because that statement sounded like an apology and if it is I accept it and thank you most heartily.

Admiral Vostok
10-14-2004, 05:50 PM
Your persistence in calling it xenophobia just highlights the fact that you do not understand my reasons. Please familiarise yourself with the argument before embarassing yourself any further.

Darth Windu
10-15-2004, 02:27 AM
Viceroy-
Windu would you allow several projects to be researhed at once and split the creits you put into them.?
Not sure exacly what you are asking, but you can invest as many credits as you like and can distrube them over different research areas, ranging from 0-100%.

Would you have Specific Catagories for Research Like Bomber Research Fighter Research Advanced Infantry Weapons Research-(Rebels Only) Advanced Medh Research (Empire Only)-Gyro Stabilisation Research-(For Walker Mechs) Advanced Droid Research-(Confederacy Only) Advanced Cloning Research-(Republic Only)
No. Apart from being complicated, the individual units are such that, unlike SWGB, they do not need research to make them unique or as they appear in the films.

Does Each area have a fixed cost to research can you order double Money and double the speed of research but double the cost?
Absolutely. Each research item will have a specific cost. For example, if you are investing credits into aircraft research, once you have invested a certain amount, somthing like 'targetting computers' becomes available and is applied to your forces.
For the second question, yes. The more credits you put into research, the fast the technologies will become available. In this case, it is double the credits, half the time.

For the Interface will you have a quick Research Interfarce like in imperium Galactica 2 which i'll explain in the main interface there is a lightning bolt which you can click on and this brings up a quiick menu under Spaceships Buildings and Tanks and each has a project you can put finds into while each gives no description aprat from at the bottom of the menu a cost instead you could have Aircraft Reserach Ground Forces Reseach and Buidlings Research and in those have breakdwons there.
I really cant comment here because ive never played IG2, but invisage the interface as basically being the same as that of the unit-construction interface, with the appropriate modifications.

DK_Viceroy
10-15-2004, 02:38 AM
I'll try and post a screenie later but I can't now because I'm at school and It's half way through one of my free periods.