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View Full Version : Did Anakin bring balance to the Force?


Talor Star
10-03-2004, 11:20 AM
Because surely with all the stuff spouted by qui gon in ep I about him being amazing and stuff and that he will being balance to the force, bet he didnt think he would do this by destroying practically the whole light side of the force?

so did ankin furfil (spelt so badly i think :( ) the prohpecy or not? was him turning always predicited or did it just not go well?

Vader523
10-03-2004, 12:48 PM
In my opinion, yes. He may have turned to the Dark Side, but he was the only one with enough strength and courage to defeat the Emperor. Once the Emperor was desrtoyed, the remnants of the Empire was wiped out thus bringing peace back to the galaxy... For the time being.

Talor Star
10-03-2004, 01:10 PM
lol you know it. with all the different eu stuff that happens, probaly would have been better to stick with the empire

DarthBuzzard
10-03-2004, 01:33 PM
Yes. He eliminated all Jedi but 2 on each side.

Empire
Sidious
Vader

Jedi/Rebellion
Luke
Yoda

primalunderdog
10-03-2004, 07:01 PM
Yes he did because the emperor was so strong in the force it actually got weaker!When he died it returned to normal.

Kurgan
10-03-2004, 09:22 PM
We get the impression from the prequels (especially AOTC's directories commentary) that Palpatine is SO powerful in the Dark Side that he's really tipping the scales so to speak.

He's so powerful that the Jedi themselves are having their powers "clouded" and "diminished."

"The Darkside clouds everything" says Yoda, etc.

If only two Sith are as powerful (or indeed more powerful as we may learn) than 10,000 Jedi, that's pretty extreme.

Lucas seems to see the "Dark Side" as a distortion of the Force, a cancer almost. So by wiping it out (and also closing up the source of the evil that he supported in his own life) Anakin brings balance to the Force.

Now of course this plotline doesn't seem to have been worked out with the EU writers before Lucas made the prequels, so they can be excused somewhat for piling up the "Dark Force user of the week" stories in the 1990's.

Sivy
10-04-2004, 01:33 AM
i used to think that 'bringing balance to the force' meant that vader destroyed all the jedi but two, so then there was 2 jedi and 2 sith.
but then we learnt that the darkside unbalances the force. so vader/anakin fulfilled the prophecy when he threw the emperor down the shaft.

adillon
10-04-2004, 06:59 AM
if balance refers to peace/tranquility, then anakin fulfills the prophecy at the end of RotJ.

if balance refers to quantity, then anakin fulfills the prophecy in RotS.

guybroom
10-04-2004, 01:31 PM
hmm...

I'd never really thought about it, but i think he didn't.

I mean, he kills practicly all the Jedi, dark jedi are created and the Jedi are a tiny number of people who go train with Luke on Yavin 4 (correct me if i'm wrong).

How is that bringing balance?

Yes I know that the force is out of balance with the Emperor, but I don't belive that. Yoda can't see anything when he's trying to see the future in EP2 but in Ep5 Luke can see Han and Leia.

Also the council is wrong to train Anikin, wrong to let him go with Padame, wrong about who tried to kill Padame, so surly they are wrong about the prophecy.

Kurgan
10-04-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by guybroom
hmm...

I'd never really thought about it, but i think he didn't.

I mean, he kills practicly all the Jedi, dark jedi are created and the Jedi are a tiny number of people who go train with Luke on Yavin 4 (correct me if i'm wrong).

How is that bringing balance?

Yes I know that the force is out of balance with the Emperor, but I don't belive that. Yoda can't see anything when he's trying to see the future in EP2 but in Ep5 Luke can see Han and Leia.

Also the council is wrong to train Anikin, wrong to let him go with Padame, wrong about who tried to kill Padame, so surly they are wrong about the prophecy.

I don't claim to know what Lucas will do in Episode III (worst case scenario, he won't explain any of this, and leave it up to the writers of the novels to make something up). However, I do have a few guesses.

In ESB, the Emperor discovers Luke through a tremor in the Force. Likewise Vader has been obsessed with him since the Death Star was destroyed.

Vader probably had a "Hunch" based on the name Skywalker from intelligence on the Rebels and was seeking after him, since after all he said "the Force is strong with this one" having detected Luke using the Force as he flew down the Death Star trench.

Now on to the theorizing. In the original & SE editions of ESB the Emperor says "we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker." So either through the Force or intelligence, or both, the Emperor knew about Luke. Vader's comments indicate that HE TOO has sensed Luke's power (see above). Since obviously (except to the audience seeing ESB for the first time) Luke SKYWALKER is related to Anakin SKYWALKER (Vader) this shows that he knows that Luke is his son already.

In the 2004 DVD edition, the Emperor says that Luke is Anakin's son (but doesn't name him as "Luke" he just says the offspring of Anakin Skywalker). Vader's response "How is that possible" can be taken two ways. 1) Vader is surprised that he has a son. He could have been searching for Luke (per the opening crawl) because he just wanted to find out the Force using guy who blew up the Death Star until then but not realized it was Luke SKYWALKER his son. Or Skywalker could be a common name and he just didn't put two and two together yet.

2) Vader knows he has a son and is playing dumb with Palpy. After all, there is the subplot of Vader wanting Luke to "join him" to overthrow the Emperor. By protecting Luke (Palpatine wanted Luke to die at first, Vader quickly suggests that they "turn" him instead), and playing dumb Vader is trying to hide his feelings from the Emperor. He wants to protect his son, but also to make himself more powerful and defeat his master.

The reason that Luke can sense Han and Leia when the Jedi in AOTC had trouble focusing could be because Han & Leia are bait in a TRAP set BY VADER to catch Luke. So instead of "dampening" (let's say) their light side powers, Vader (and/or Palpy) lets Luke see into the future so he will be drawn to Cloud City and be captured.

Another reason could be that since the Emperor and Vader thought all the Jedi were dead (Kenobi's being alive in ANH was a shock to Vader, and once he was dead that threat was passed; in the ROTJ novel Palpatine is surprised that Yoda was still alive all this time to help Luke, not mentioned in the movie of course).

If the Emperor doesn't think any Jedi are out there, he won't be actively dampening out their powers. Except for Luke, who would be "allowed" to sense things so they could communicate with him (as Vader does in ESB) or try to trap him (Lucas even explains that the reason Han is tortured is primarly because it sends out "tremors" into the Force for Luke to sense).

They could be wrong about the prophecy, true. But Lucas seems to think that the prophecy was fulfilled by Anakin, at least I draw that conclusion from his comments on the OT DVD's.

If you want my opinion, I think that basically is that Anakin is a pawn of the Force, a tool to flush out and destroy the Sith who are way too powerful and destructive. The Force sacrifices the Jedi in order to remove this threat to the galaxy. And there's still the hope of Luke and Leia rebuilding the Jedi Knights, perhaps with a bit more wisdom after learning their lesson.

Another way to view it is that Anakin really was meant to be a great hero, like Luke turned out to be, but he took the wrong path, and Palpatine actually almost prevented the prophecy from coming true by twisting Anakin to evil. Palpatine himself could have known about the prophecy and did it. Think of in the Bible how Satan tries to tempt Jesus to join him, but Jesus refuses. Except in this case, Anakin DOES join the evil one (Palpatine) and serves him. Luke gets in and brings out the last shred of goodness in Anakin, which allows him to fulfill his destiny and destroy the Emperor, even at the cost of his own life.

RoxStar
10-04-2004, 03:58 PM
I think that the "balance" refers to an equally powerful few dark lords and equally powerful number of jedi.

EX:

Two Dark lords whose powers are equal to 125 is more than 10,000 jedi whose powers are equal to 100.

Soo... when there are too many jedi, the force is embodied into an extremely powerful Dark Lord (Palpatine). If there are too many Dark Lords, an extremely powerful Jedi is born (Luke Skywalker). This imbalance goes on for ages and ages until, the two sides of the force are equal like the Ying and the Yang.

Kurgan
10-05-2004, 04:29 AM
That's cool, but, then doesn't that mean that Anakin achieved balance for about 5 minutes, and then unbalanced it again by dying?

Thus leaving no Dark Siders and two powerful (one untrained) Lightsiders... Luke & Leia.


Well, unless you go by the EU, then there were tons of Dark Side and Light Side users out there in the galaxy at the time and so no way to really know one way or the other. ; )

But then it's obvious that Lucas didn't tell the EU authors at large about his prequels with the "prophecy of the chosen one to bring balance to the force."

Jan Gaarni
10-05-2004, 08:22 AM
When you said "flushed", Kurgan, I started thinking, maybe you're on to something there. Maybe it's like with Noah and the Ark kind of thing. The Force, or whatever, whiping the slait clean (eventually) to start over. :)

I don't know.

As you said, the Emperor was extremely powerfull if he could hide from the Jedi in plain view site (or atleast on the same planet).

Talor Star
10-05-2004, 09:39 AM
lets just chuck loads of random ideas in

yoda says in ep II that alot of the new jedi are growing arrogant, and maybe the whole bringing the force back into balance refers to when just luke is left, and he apreciats the force more. of corse their are loads of force sensitives but only one jedi (aparently cause I always wondered, to become a jedi knight, you have to take "the trials", which he seems to completely skip and announces himself to jabba as "luke skywalker jedi master" (i think)

but anyway I think that bringing the force into balance does mean, like other ppl said, starting afesh, with new powerful jedi who arent arrogant, like the jedi of old

Vader523
10-05-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Talor Star
lets just chuck loads of random ideas in

yoda says in ep II that alot of the new jedi are growing arrogant, and maybe the whole bringing the force back into balance refers to when just luke is left, and he apreciats the force more. of corse their are loads of force sensitives but only one jedi (aparently cause I always wondered, to become a jedi knight, you have to take "the trials", which he seems to completely skip and announces himself to jabba as "luke skywalker jedi master" (i think)

but anyway I think that bringing the force into balance does mean, like other ppl said, starting afesh, with new powerful jedi who arent arrogant, like the jedi of old

I agree. As for the trials, I think it was an organized way to test their knowledge and ability. They arent necessary to become a Jedi. Luke was so knowlegable and the Force was so string with him, Yoda felt he was ready to be a Jedi.

I believe Anakin did bring balance back to the Force. He killed the Emporer, something no one else would or could possibly do at that time. He may have killed all the Jedi, but in the end the Force ended up stronger in Luke, and he will pass on his knowledge in a more powerful way.

Revlt Coranier
10-06-2004, 08:45 PM
One could look at it this way: balance in the Force means an equal amount of Dark and Light side power. So if there are a small band of incredibly powerful Light-siders, a small band of incredibly powerful Dark-siders OR a lot of not-very-powerful Dark-siders would be needed to balance the Force.

There could be TONS of Dark side power, and TONS of Light side power (equal amounts of both) and the Force would be balanced. There could also be just a TINY amount of Dark side power, and just a TINY amount of Light side power would be needed to balance the Force.

The Dark side is not stronger than the Light, and nor is it the other way around. It all depends on everything (weird, huh?). Since the Force flows and binds everything together, everything is connected.

If you think about it, there really is no Dark or Light side. Those that affect the Force in a non-neutral way are what make the Dark and Light sides. For example, a rock is connected to the Force just as much as a Jedi or Sith Master. Rocks, though, interact with the Force in only a neutral way. They are not sentient, and therefore cannot choose to affect the Force in any other way (unless, of course, the spirit of a something else rests in the rock). But take a Jedi or Sith, for instance, they posses the ability to interact with the Force in a much more complex way. They can manipulate there interactions with it. The way they interact with the Force is what the Dark and Light sides are.

Kurgan
10-07-2004, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Revlt Coranier
One could look at it this way: balance in the Force means an equal amount of Dark and Light side power. So if there are a small band of incredibly powerful Light-siders, a small band of incredibly powerful Dark-siders OR a lot of not-very-powerful Dark-siders would be needed to balance the Force.

There could be TONS of Dark side power, and TONS of Light side power (equal amounts of both) and the Force would be balanced. There could also be just a TINY amount of Dark side power, and just a TINY amount of Light side power would be needed to balance the Force.

The Dark side is not stronger than the Light,


Lucas directly contradicts this, answering the question of why Palpatine can remain undetected by the Jedi Council in the prequels (on the AOTC DVD commentary). He contradicts Yoda's statement to Luke in ESB by saying the Dark Side IS STRONGER. Whoa.

Now Lucas might change his mind but there you have it, from the man himself.

That said you could interpret it as well "well in this particular CASE the Dark Side happens to be stronger" (Palpatine + Dooku > 10,000 Jedi) or it is simply inherently stronger (notice how Maul, an apprentice Sith was a match for two Jedi, one of them a Master).

Palpatine could be a weird "super force user" who is way beyond the norm (like Anakin) or it could be that the Dark Side is simply more powerful when utilized by somebody like that. Perhaps the restrictions the Jedi put on their powers (which make good sense with their role) make them inherently weaker than the Sith.

This may sound antithetical to all that Star Wars is, but remember that in the EU NJO Novels we had that stuff about "there is no Dark or Light Side, it's how you use it." If we can swallow that "nonesense" coming from some liscensed writers, why can't we swallow this from Lucas, the creator of Star Wars?


and nor is it the other way around. It all depends on everything (weird, huh?). Since the Force flows and binds everything together, everything is connected.

If you think about it, there really is no Dark or Light side. Those that affect the Force in a non-neutral way are what make the Dark and Light sides.

Lucas says there is a Dark and Light (Or "Good Side"... in the movies the term "Light Side" is never actually used, it's an EU term created for the sake of explanation, or simply the "Dark Side" is mentioned vs. the Force as the Dark Side being an anomaly). See comments above (or listen to the actual commentary).


For example, a rock is connected to the Force just as much as a Jedi or Sith Master. Rocks, though, interact with the Force in only a neutral way.

According to the films, "Life creates it." A rock isn't alive. Though it may have been part of something that was once alive (like a fossil). The "energy field that binds the galaxy together" surrounds everything in the galaxy, including inanimate and non-living objects. Otherwise they couldn't Force push droids and metal boxes around.

On the other hand Qui Gon says that without midichlorians life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. Is he saying that the Force can exist without life?

Yoda says that life "creates it, makes it grow." So it's like a Life Force (at least in Yoda's understanding). Then again, the Force may exist independantly, and simply grow stronger (life creates "more of the stuff") .


They are not sentient, and therefore cannot choose to affect the Force in any other way (unless, of course, the spirit of a something else rests in the rock). But take a Jedi or Sith, for instance, they posses the ability to interact with the Force in a much more complex way. They can manipulate there interactions with it. The way they interact with the Force is what the Dark and Light sides are. [/B]

It's also interesting that only certain beings can use the Force, and it crosses "species lines" (Star Wars alien races). It seems to be random...

Anyway it's a fun topic, but it seems like Lucas has a certain idea of what the Force is and how it works, and that doesn't always gel with what the EU writers do.

Ultimately it could be the real message is that it's a BIG MYSTERY (like the Mysteries in life) and that everyone has an interpretation of it, and some might be closer to the truth than others, but ultimately we really don't know it all (even if we think we do).

Jan Gaarni
10-07-2004, 09:27 AM
But you shouldn't always take it literally the way it's said in the EU. It may very well be that Vergere thinks that this is the way the Force is, and so strongly that she believes that this is how it is, not that it actually is that way.

Same with thousands of examples we could have listed in our own way of understanding stuff in our life, either thru a few years or centuries.

The earth being flat is a great example. :D

Shok_Tinoktin
10-08-2004, 03:17 AM
The idea of "balance" does not necessarily imply a balance between light and dark. The light side is about maintaining order, and the dark side is about creating chaos. Therefore, the rise in strength of the Sith is what causes the force to be unbalanced. Mace says that if the prophesy is true, then Anakin is the only one who can bring the force back into balance. It does not say that he will. So I think him destroying the Jedi, was not a part of the prophesy. Anakin brings balance to the force by killing the Emperor and denouncing the dark side within himself.

Revlt Coranier
10-08-2004, 05:48 PM
Damn, Star Wars is more complicated than math class....:eek:

I think that idea about the Light side being weaker because they limit themselves makes sense.

Jedi don't use the Force for ANYTHING unnecessary, eg. cleaning. Dark siders, on the other hand, aren't necessarily more in tune with the Force, they just utilize more of its potential.

That's basically what seperates Dark siders from Light siders; Dark siders use the Force for their own personal gain and profit, and Light siders only use it when necessary.

Talor Star
10-09-2004, 04:58 AM
lol I've started up a really intuleccual thread here ( but just destroyed it but spelling that wrong) but how about this

One Dark Sith Lord (Sidious) can stop 9000 jedi from using the force, as said by Windu to yoda in Ep II. Doesn't sound like balance to me. So, by killing the most powerful user of the force, then turning good himself (and then dying), Ankin brings the force back into balance (of corse not how the jedi wanted, what with them being killed and that) but thats how I see it

guybroom
10-12-2004, 01:46 PM
I had it all thought out, but now I don't know what to think. Does anyone mind if I scream and bash my head on a table? *Screams and bashes his head on a table*. Thank you.

But I stilll think he didn't, even if he did turn to the light

Lieutenant_kettch
10-12-2004, 02:21 PM
Anakin does not bring balance to the force, nor do i think he would have if he had stayed light. Nobody ever said he did, windu and wierd al said he could. although, he could have brought balance if he had been able to bring both light and dark to an equal understanding of eachother, where no one side is "better", in which case, all would be equal and balanced

Shok_Tinoktin
10-12-2004, 07:14 PM
I think a lot of people have gotten the idea that balance means a balance between light and dark, there is no such reference. I believe that Anakin did in fact bring balance.

Lieutenant_kettch
10-13-2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I think a lot of people have gotten the idea that balance means a balance between light and dark, there is no such reference. I believe that Anakin did in fact bring balance.
however, i believe most now understand the new balance definition, as evidenced by some of the more recent posts.
would you expand on your idea that he brought balance to the force by killing the emperor and betraying the dark side?

Shok_Tinoktin
10-13-2004, 11:56 AM
i disagree with your saying that we have come to a mutual definition of what balance is, but here goes none the less. Palpatine was very powerful, and used the dark side of the Force. That strong use of the dark side, was disrupting the will of the Force. Vader was also powerful enough to have this ill effect. When Vader left the dark side and killed Palpatine, there you go, Force balanced. btw, he did not betray the dark side, he returned to the light side.

Lieutenant_kettch
10-13-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
i disagree with your saying that we have come to a mutual definition of what balance is, but here goes none the less. Palpatine was very powerful, and used the dark side of the Force. That strong use of the dark side, was disrupting the will of the Force. Vader was also powerful enough to have this ill effect. When Vader left the dark side and killed Palpatine, there you go, Force balanced. btw, he did not betray the dark side, he returned to the light side.

same thing...

but how do we know the will of the force?

Shok_Tinoktin
10-13-2004, 12:03 PM
midichlorians tell us

Lieutenant_kettch
10-13-2004, 12:05 PM
whos to say the midichlorians wanted the galaxy the way it was under the rule of palpatine and vader, that that was how he brought balance, though it did not specify for how long, leaving it possible that luke then distrupted the balance

guybroom
10-15-2004, 01:13 PM
if you are saying that mediclorians wanted the force to be bad, that is like saying that god wanted hitler to do what he did and we are in a state of termoil now because the nazis lost

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by guybroom
if you are saying that mediclorians wanted the force to be bad, that is like saying that god wanted hitler to do what he did and we are in a state of termoil now because the nazis lost

not at all
what i am saying is that we doon't know if midichlorians are naturally light or dark, but we know God is naturally light. so we don't know what the midis really want, unless we ask

does anyone here speak midichlorian?

Shok_Tinoktin
10-15-2004, 01:34 PM
I DO!!!!!!!

Think about it this way, midichlorians communicate to people, and those who have many and are well trained, are capable of understanding what they are saying. Those people include the Jedi and the Sith. Now lets see, which of those is gonna listen. The very basis of right and wrong for the Jedi, is what the midichlorians tell them is right and wrong. So we do know that the midichlorians wanted the world to have peace and justice.

Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
whos to say the midichlorians wanted the galaxy the way it was under the rule of palpatine and vader

no one!

well, maybe you, but that wont convince anyone

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I DO!!!!!!!

Think about it this way, midichlorians communicate to people, and those who have many and are well trained, are capable of understanding what they are saying. Those people include the Jedi and the Sith. Now lets see, which of those is gonna listen. The very basis of right and wrong for the Jedi, is what the midichlorians tell them is right and wrong. So we do know that the midichlorians wanted the world to have peace and justice.



no one!

well, maybe you, but that wont convince anyone

true true, although i will say the galaxy was much more disciplined under the gentle touch of palpatine, as opposed to splintering under the tyrannic hand of the new republic

El Sitherino
10-15-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
the galaxy was much more disciplined under the gentle touch of palpatine, as opposed to splintering under the tyrannic hand of the new republic wow, I don't think a sentence could ever make less sense than that. :dozey:

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
wow, I don't think a sentence could ever make less sense than that. :dozey:
you have to admit that the galaxy had more order under the empire than under the new republic

coupes.
10-15-2004, 03:02 PM
So did Germany When Hitler was chancelor, compared to the after-war Germany. :rolleyes:

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 03:04 PM
it is true, however, i do not believe in what hitler did, but i support palpatine and vader, though they could have done a better job

Shok_Tinoktin
10-15-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
it is true, however, i do not believe in what hitler did, but i support palpatine and vader, though they could have done a better job


whats the difference?

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 03:10 PM
palpatine and vader would let anyone live, so long as they didn't fight back, hitler oppressed certain peoples

coupes.
10-15-2004, 03:10 PM
Yippie ! Let's kill millions of people and enlsave millions of others ! Let's also get rid of the 'inferior' races so we can have a 'pure' Galaxy ! Let's also kill everyone who is in disagreement with us ! Good thinking buddy ! :dozey:

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 03:11 PM
now now, they enslaved everyone, so they weren't being discriminitory about it, and they didn't oppress certain races

Shok_Tinoktin
10-15-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
palpatine and vader would let anyone live, so long as they didn't fight back, hitler oppressed certain peoples

whats the difference between oppressing people and not letting them fight back? your not making much sense


Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
now now, they enslaved everyone, so they weren't being discriminitory about it, and they didn't oppress certain races

how many non-human officers did u see on the side of the Empire?

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 03:13 PM
hitler would force certain peoples to death or slavelabor, whereas the empire would allow them to go about their normal lives so long as they didn't fight back

Shok_Tinoktin
10-15-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
hitler would force certain peoples to death or slavelabor, whereas the empire would allow them to go about their normal lives so long as they didn't fight back

what about Wookiees?

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
what about Wookiees?

ooh, i hadn't thought about that, ok, so i disagree with that, but i would rather live under the empire than NR

Shok_Tinoktin
10-15-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
ooh, i hadn't thought about that, ok, so i disagree with that, but i would rather live under the empire than NR


You wouldn't if you were a wookiee!


btw, the same thing I said about wookiees, goes for countless other species such as the Mon Calamari

Lieutenant_kettch
10-15-2004, 03:21 PM
yeah, now, i don't agree with the hwhole enslaving thing, and i'm not a wookiee

Kurgan
10-16-2004, 02:51 AM
Hmmm, the Empire didn't give Alderaan a chance to surrender, or to turn over any "Rebel Sympathizers."

In fact, even after the supposed "deal" Tarkin made with Leia, they still blew the planet up!

The Empire is controlled by a bunch of evil ********, either way you look at it.

In all seroiusness, I too think that the Empire is "cool" but only because it's fiction!

The Empire might have "law & order" but the fact that they can (and do) turn on their own citizens with deadly force on a whim is quite disturbing, and is the whole reason for the Rebellion in the first place. At least that's how Lucas wrote the story.

El Sitherino
10-16-2004, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
now now, they enslaved everyone, so they weren't being discriminitory about it, and they didn't oppress certain races they destroyed the jedi... that's pretty bigotous in my opinion.

guybroom
10-17-2004, 04:13 AM
Put it this way:

Jedi = Jews

Imperials = Nazis

How about that for simple?

And when did the Empire enslave the Wookies? Do u mean in KOTOR?

Lieutenant_kettch
10-17-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by guybroom
Put it this way:

Jedi = Jews

Imperials = Nazis

How about that for simple?

And when did the Empire enslave the Wookies? Do u mean in KOTOR?

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but han rescued chewie from imperial enslavement, which is how the life debt incurred

primalunderdog
10-17-2004, 04:56 PM
That is true,Chewie was rescued by han in a prison camp.

Kurgan
10-17-2004, 09:29 PM
I haven't read the old Han Solo books, but was Chewie an Imperial slave or just a slave of some pirates or something?

I always assumed that the Wookies were enslaved by the Empire, but that doesn't mean that other people didn't treat them as slaves, such as Chewbacca.

Just curious...

Jan Gaarni
10-18-2004, 12:48 AM
I believe I remember correctly when I say he was an Imperial slave. :)

Lieutenant_kettch
10-18-2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I haven't read the old Han Solo books, but was Chewie an Imperial slave or just a slave of some pirates or something?

I always assumed that the Wookies were enslaved by the Empire, but that doesn't mean that other people didn't treat them as slaves, such as Chewbacca.

Just curious...

it is mentioned several times that chewie was rescued from imperial slavery in the EU books

Sivy
10-18-2004, 08:08 AM
Ep III spoiler warning...

i believe in Ep III you will see the wookiees being enslaved by the empire, including chewbacca.

Lieutenant_kettch
10-18-2004, 08:24 AM
how do you create that spoiler blankout thingy

Sivy
10-18-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
how do you create that spoiler blankout thingy

you can use the spoiler tag by typing [spoiler] then your spoiler here [~spoiler] (replace ~ with / for it too work)

Kurgan
10-18-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
it is mentioned several times that chewie was rescued from imperial slavery in the EU books

Okay, since I haven't read those books (the only book I've read that mentioned it was the "Wookiee Storybook" that says "slave traders") I'll take your word for it that it was Imperials who enslaved Chewie. ; )

guybroom
10-21-2004, 01:33 PM
I think that the spoiler was right. I've heard that too. Also I mentioned KOTOR before and I'm not sure if this needs a spoiler tag or not but i'll do it anyway. The czeca corp enslave the wookies on kashak (or eden as they call it). Czerca isn't the empire but it does work for the empire

It might be like that in EP 3

Pho3nix
10-22-2004, 09:58 AM
Well i'd say yes. Because he killed the Emperor (although he resurrected again some time later) :deathii:

guybroom
11-21-2004, 06:58 AM
The emperor got reserected? is that the EU?

Jedi Yuriath
11-22-2004, 06:08 AM
The Jedi represent the Force and the Sith the Dark Side of the Force. Bringing balance to the means that the Sith die but the Jedi stay. If I remember correctly, I guess Lucas says that in the audio commentaries of the RotJ.

Anyhow, don't find that strange that the most powerful Force-sensitive never had a student?!? Anakin was obi-Wan's padawan and then, as Darth Vader, he was Palpatine's pupil. Anakin was always the second even though he tried to lure luke to the Dark Side to help him destroy the Emperor and take his place.

Vader's plan was quite simple if you compare it to Sidious'; turn Luke to the Dark Side and betray his mentor. I wonder why Palpatine did not farsaw Vader's treachery. Was Vader enough powerful in the Dark Side to hide things to the Emperor?!? Vader did feel that Luke was in the shuttle and the Emperor did not.

Revan Solo
11-27-2004, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Talor Star
Because surely with all the stuff spouted by qui gon in ep I about him being amazing and stuff and that he will being balance to the force, bet he didnt think he would do this by destroying practically the whole light side of the force?

so did ankin furfil (spelt so badly i think :( ) the prohpecy or not? was him turning always predicited or did it just not go well? Yes, he did! He killed the Emperor, the worsest man in the whole galaxy. And when he returned to the light, before he died, everything is alright!

Jan Gaarni
11-27-2004, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by guybroom
I think that the spoiler was right. I've heard that too. Also I mentioned KOTOR before and I'm not sure if this needs a spoiler tag or not but i'll do it anyway. The czeca corp enslave the wookies on kashak (or eden as they call it). Czerca isn't the empire but it does work for the empire

It might be like that in EP 3
That happened 4000 years before the rise of the Empire though.

Since then the wookiees obviously rose above their slave status sometime in those thousands of years (See Ep. I and I think II aswell) perating KotOR and the Galactic Civil War period.

Time of the Empire, they were back to being slave labour.

boinga1
11-27-2004, 04:33 PM
Did Anakin bring balance? Yes- through his death. He created an imbalance in the Force, throguh his slaughter of the Jedi. Only through his death, and the death of the Emperor, did he restore balance.

Jan Gaarni
11-28-2004, 12:39 AM
The Force was already in imballance even before Anakin was born if 1 Sith can hide from the Jedi right under their noses.

Anakin balanced it again by removing the Emperor from the equation.

The unfortunate side effect was that pretty much every Jedi was eradicated aswell in the process.

Revan Solo
12-09-2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
The Force was already in imballance even before Anakin was born if 1 Sith can hide from the Jedi right under their noses.

Anakin balanced it again by removing the Emperor from the equation.

The unfortunate side effect was that pretty much every Jedi was eradicated aswell in the process. There are some stories in EU which tell us that the Emperor cloned his body several times after Ep. VI! I find that stupid. It makes Ep. VI senseless.

Kurgan
12-09-2004, 09:31 AM
According to the EU line of thinking, "Palpatine" the entity is actually a malevolent evil "Sith Spirit" that floats around and possesses people.

And he's so powerful in the Dark Side that he "wears out" any body that he possesses in a very short time (not sure how short, but enough so that he needed a new body before ESB and he got a new one after ROTJ and already it was worn out by the time of "Dark Empire" in which this story takes place).

According to this theory the Dark Side causes "rapid aging" and wrecks havoc on bodies, which is why Palpatine looks so old and twisted. The clones need not be of his actual body (though they tend to be, since he happens to look the same in old age). He was finally killed and his spirit prevented from slipping into a new body (somehow, I don't remember exactly, some technobabble Force thing) by the end of Dark Empire II.

But with this theory in mind, "Palpatine" actually died a long time ago. We're just dealing with a nasty ghost instead!

It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't seem to bode well with the Prequels (which show him just as a really powerful Sith, with normal aging).

HOWEVER, the Episode III teaser trailer has introduced a few doubts in my mind and I'll have to see the movie to know if there are some new wrinkles introduced by Lucas (no pun intended!).

Revan Solo
12-10-2004, 03:50 AM
Your posts are always very long! But they are good. :cool:

Jan Gaarni
12-10-2004, 06:32 AM
Lead by example. :)

Which I am poor at right now. :D

guybroom
01-01-2005, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
According to the EU line of thinking, "Palpatine" the entity is actually a malevolent evil "Sith Spirit" that floats around and possesses people.

And he's so powerful in the Dark Side that he "wears out" any body that he possesses in a very short time (not sure how short, but enough so that he needed a new body before ESB and he got a new one after ROTJ and already it was worn out by the time of "Dark Empire" in which this story takes place).

According to this theory the Dark Side causes "rapid aging" and wrecks havoc on bodies, which is why Palpatine looks so old and twisted. The clones need not be of his actual body (though they tend to be, since he happens to look the same in old age). He was finally killed and his spirit prevented from slipping into a new body (somehow, I don't remember exactly, some technobabble Force thing) by the end of Dark Empire II.

But with this theory in mind, "Palpatine" actually died a long time ago. We're just dealing with a nasty ghost instead!

It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't seem to bode well with the Prequels (which show him just as a really powerful Sith, with normal aging).



Like you said, the prequals don't agree with this theory about palpy. Although, was he strong as strong in the force at the begining of ep 1. I know that he worked out just about everything that would happen until the last few minutes of ep 2, but how physicly powerful was he?

pnkparasite
01-04-2005, 02:40 PM
I Think it was really obvious that Anakin would go bad by the second movie. When he destroys the entire village of sand people out of spite and hatred.

guybroom
01-09-2005, 02:13 AM
I think it was obvious he would go bad, from before they saw TPM for anyone who has seen the OT.

i.e. anikin skywalker was always going to turn evil. but the question was when?

Engma48
11-19-2005, 06:29 PM
bringing balance to the force in the theory's of the jedi means to wipe out the darkside of the force. that being said. anakin did bring balance to the force when he killed the emporer.

MachineCult
11-19-2005, 07:27 PM
Oh my god, this is the oldest thread any noob has ever revived ever.

Anakin brought balance to the force, in his own special drawn out, turn-to-evil-first way.

The Doctor
11-21-2005, 06:12 PM
Anakin did bring balance to the Force. Anyone who has to ask needs to watch ROTJ again. Now.
And no, this is not the oldest revived thread. I hold that record from my first days here.

Alkonium
11-21-2005, 07:21 PM
Technically in order to bring balance to the Force, both sides must be in equilibrium. The prophecy is in fact a contradiction, unless you destroy the Jedi and the Sith.

Jeff
11-21-2005, 10:46 PM
Technically in order to bring balance to the Force, both sides must be in equilibrium. The prophecy is in fact a contradiction, unless you destroy the Jedi and the Sith.
No, because the Dark Side is what brought the Force out of balance. It isn't the Light Side and Dark Side, it's The Force, and the Dark Side of the Force. If only the force exists than it is in balance.

Alkonium
11-21-2005, 11:05 PM
I see, so you don't think there's a light side but there is a dark side? Well, some think there are no sides of the Force at all. Well, if there is no light side then there is no dark side, and therefore, you see Potentium.

Jeff
11-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Well I guess you can call it the light side, but it makes more sense when you just call the Jedi's way the Force because having only the Light Side/Force is being in balance, and saying light side sounds like it isnt balanced.

Prime
11-22-2005, 11:56 AM
A cookie for DM. :)

The Force is in a natural state of balance when there is no Sith...

Foshjedi2004
01-04-2006, 02:33 PM
The Force is in Balance when the user surrenders himself to the Will of the Force.

Prime
01-04-2006, 02:37 PM
the Will of the Force.Which is what exactly?

General Solo
01-19-2006, 12:22 AM
Technically Anakin did bring balance to the force when he destroyed palpatine but luke also technically did it to because he got vader to turn back and destroy palpatine. So yea, anakin did bring balance to the force but luke also helped to save the galaxy.

El Sitherino
01-19-2006, 12:42 AM
Luke was a catalyst to Anakin fullfilling his destiny, nothing more, nothing less.

arkodeon
01-28-2006, 03:18 PM
Wow, we are SO pulling Godwin's Law.



Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage in Internet culture originated by Mike Godwin on Usenet in 1990 that states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.



XDD

Is the comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Empire really necessary?


__________________________________________________ _________

I truly believe that Anakin was the one to bring balance to the force; dissimilar, however, is the way that this was played out.

We all concieve that balance means "Between Light and Dark," or "Between Jedi and Sith." We have not stopped to consider that this could possibly mean...

"Amongst the Jedi."

How, you ask? Simple.

The Jedi were always selfless, always thinking of others.

Anakin, however, was a little different in the way that he had a wife, and he had two children. Granted, other Jedi had children; Ki-Adi-Mundi, because his world was underpopulated, had .. three, if I remember correctly.

But none of these romances/offspring brough about a major change within the Jedi. Anakin, through the birth of Luke and Leia, brought about a major change within the Jedi Order:

The ability to show passion and love, the heart of all life.

It is widely known that the New Jedi Order was able to have romance, have children, etc. etc. The Old Jedi were not able to do this, and I think that contributed to their downfall: they had nothing, really, to fight for. Ki-Adi-Mundi took wives because he had to reproduce his culture.

Quinlan Vos, however, is a slight exception. But he appears to have no significant impact on the Jedi Order; this may be contested after, however.

Therefore, at least part of the prophesy, may have been about bringing balance back to the Jedi Order itself.

But in no way am I saying this negates the other parts of the prophesy; namely that which is called "The Sith'Ari."

Cheeseinator
02-13-2006, 03:23 PM
sure he did, at the end of the clone wars there were 2 jedi and 2 sith.... see? balance...

Darth_Terros
02-13-2006, 03:28 PM
sure he did, at the end of the clone wars there were 2 jedi and 2 sith.... see? balance...

Infact there was quite a few jedi left after the clone wars.

Cheeseinator
02-13-2006, 03:35 PM
Infact there was quite a few jedi left after the clone wars.

officially no, unoficially, yes. darn EU always making crap like that for commercial purposes

Darth_Terros
02-13-2006, 03:38 PM
officially no, unoficially, yes. darn EU always making crap like that for commercial purposes

Its canon which makes it official :)

MachineCult
02-13-2006, 04:22 PM
It's official EU Cheeseinator, Obi-wan even sends out a message to all surviving Jedi to stay away from the temple.
There were thousands of Jedi, nowhere near all of them were serving as Generals, the Purge was not completely successful.

Kurgan
02-13-2006, 10:02 PM
Well, you'd have to check and see what's been retconned since ROTS, since it sure makes it look like they're all dead except for three, and anybody else gets mopped up, because Yoda thought Luke was the "last of the Jedi." Then again Obi-Wan forgot about Leia, so blame that on Lucas's continuity gaffes...

As to the "Light Side" as far as I can remember it was a term invented for the games (correct me if I'm wrong), for gameplay mechanics. In the movies it's never mentioned. There's just "the Force" (or "the Good Side" as Luke mentions in ROTJ) and then the "Dark Side" (the corruption of the Force, via the early Scripts of the "para-force").

So having the Force balanced when Anakin kills Sideous and then comes back from the Darkside (and dies) works just fine for the "prophecy."

The Jedi just didn't realize that all this other crap would happen in between. My question is, why would they think the prophecy would need balancing back in TPM, before they knew about the Sith? Bit of a plot hole I guess...

Prime
02-13-2006, 11:41 PM
sure he did, at the end of the clone wars there were 2 jedi and 2 sith.... see? balance...That is not the balance that the prophecy is refering to...

The Jedi just didn't realize that all this other crap would happen in between. My question is, why would they think the prophecy would need balancing back in TPM, before they knew about the Sith? Bit of a plot hole I guess..I saw somewhere recently (New Essential Chronology I think) that the presence of the dark side was felt before the events of TPM. The Jedi were just unaware of the source.

Kurgan
02-14-2006, 01:31 AM
I must confess I don't really trust the NEW Essential Guides too well as they seem poorly researched and hastily thrown together (just so they can have color pictures and mention the NJO and prequel stuff). But if you can produce some quotes that might help... Sometimes those guides quote (or misquote) stuff from other sources, and sometimes they just flat out make stuff up (which often gets ignored later).

Alkonium
02-14-2006, 08:45 AM
That is not the balance that the prophecy is refering to...
I for one think it was. Otherwise you believe the narrow view of the Old Jedi Order, as opposed to the open-minded view of the New Jedi Order. What they sought was not balance, but the supremacy of the Light Side. Balance is an equilibrium of light and dark, good and evil, so to speak.

Prime
02-14-2006, 11:38 AM
I must confess I don't really trust the NEW Essential Guides too well as they seem poorly researched and hastily thrown together (just so they can have color pictures and mention the NJO and prequel stuff). But if you can produce some quotes that might help... Sometimes those guides quote (or misquote) stuff from other sources, and sometimes they just flat out make stuff up (which often gets ignored later).I'll see if I can find it. I knew I should have copied the source for a time like this. :)

I for one think it was. You can disagree with Lucas all you want if it makes you happy...

Otherwise you believe the narrow view of the Old Jedi Order, as opposed to the open-minded view of the New Jedi Order. What they sought was not balance, but the supremacy of the Light Side. Balance is an equilibrium of light and dark, good and evil, so to speak. I suggest you read the Dark Nest series. There you will see what the "open-minded" view leads to, and why Luke and the Jedi have done away with it...

PoiuyWired
02-14-2006, 04:20 PM
How many books are in the DN series as of now? I am waiting for the series to end before I start reading them.

Darth_Terros
02-14-2006, 04:44 PM
How many books are in the DN series as of now? I am waiting for the series to end before I start reading them.

Its ended and there was three

Alkonium
02-14-2006, 08:15 PM
I suggest you read the Dark Nest series. There you will see what the "open-minded" view leads to, and why Luke and the Jedi have done away with it...
I have, and I see that a balance between the open-minded view of the NJO, and the narrow-minded view of the OJO.

Darth_Malak02
02-14-2006, 09:59 PM
I for one think it was. Otherwise you believe the narrow view of the Old Jedi Order, as opposed to the open-minded view of the New Jedi Order. What they sought was not balance, but the supremacy of the Light Side. Balance is an equilibrium of light and dark, good and evil, so to speak.

You are correct for balance in the force but you are incorrect about the prophecy. The NJO was founded on looser principals than the OJO, marriage for example. balance of the force means that 1: you can openly use both sides of the force in battle when nessesary. (Video games) and 2: Essential things for any person such as love, hate, anger or happiness and helping are committed to Jedi principal's...without Vader, Luke would not have recreated the order...which would mean that the second way to balance the force would never happen...

Alkonium
02-14-2006, 10:38 PM
Also, if I'm wrong, Anakin would have to have eliminated more than just the Sith, as they are not the only Dark Side Cult out there.

Kurgan
02-15-2006, 02:44 AM
Right, but these other "dark side cults" are unknown in the movies. And anyway, according to the EU Vader and Palps actually TRAIN more lower level Dark Siders and don't kill them off or try to use them against the other Sith for a coupe (Emperor's Hands, Inquisitors, Imperial Royal Guards, certain Dark Troopers, Dark Jedi, etc).

Basically, the EU undermines what we see in the movies because it posits that dozens, if not hundreds of Jedi survived the purges (when the movies strongly imply only Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan survived of "their religion" and then Luke of course). It also undermines the movies by positing that plenty of Dark Siders continue to exist after Anakin's death (and not just people that turned after he died).

But the EU authors can't be blamed for establishing this history, because Lucas didn't give us a clear picture of how the Jedi Purges played out, nor did he tell anyone about "the Prophecy." This was all revealed gradually over the course of the prequels. So they had some wiggle room before, much less now.

The only reason they are keeping these extra Dark and Light siders around is because it's so deeply entrenched in the fabric of the EU. Plus and they want some way to make stories about Jedi and Sith (even if they don't call them "Sith") to make people remember cool parts of the movies to sell products so they need some excuse to do so.

It's kind of like in Superman comics how Kal-El (Supes) was supposed to be the only survivor of the destruction of the planet Krypton. Well, except for Supergirl... and Krypto the Superdog... and the bottle city of Kandor... and General Zod and his minions... and then they threw in the whole Bizarro world, etc. ;)

This is fine when I'm playing a video game and I just want to be a Jedi. Make up some BS about me finding a lightsaber in a garage or getting infused with the Force somehow. Who cares? I just want to swing my glowstick around and choke people telekinetically! Make it so, I want to be entertained Star Wars style. But when they do this kind of crap over and over in a storyline that's supposed to be canon, it gets old fast. That's a common criticism of the EU, but then you wonder how hard it is to get around it and still seem like you're telling a "Star Wars" story. Just what makes a SW story, a SW story? Is it the space ships? The characters? The super weapons? The Force? Lightsabers? The aliens and exotic planets? The music? What? So a lot of the early EU ended up either straying completely from everything we knew and being too "out there" or it just felt like it was copying the movies or undermining them. Not all, but it's a common problem.

So now we're stuck with the prophecy. Maybe it was BS, but Lucas seems to feel that by his actions in ROTJ, Vader brings balance to the Force.

So I guess we're to assume all those dark side adepts out there were either no real threat to the galaxy, they all arose sometime after the Death Star II blew, or they were dead already by this time. Otherwise we're faced with a contradiction (the prophecy is fulfilled! 1% of the Darksiders eliminated!), and in the case of contradictions in canon, the movies win.

If we assume the Taoist interpretation (which disagrees with Lucas's stated intent so I disregard it) that you have an equal number of Light and Dark practicioners for balance, then Anakin actually unbalanced the Force when he died. Or else Luke ruined it by starting up his New Jedi Order. As long as they keep killing "Dark Jedi" then they're fighting the prophecy. So who's the Chosen One know? Why make a prophecy about this one event if it's just something you have to do again every week?

This "they use both sides of the force" thing is a fine interpretation but again, not Lucas's intention. Why bother with Lucas's intention? Because he's the one who came up with the whole "prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force" thing in the first place (along with the Sith rule of two and all the rules of the Jedi Order and Anakin being called the Chosen One). So he gets to define what it means... The games are contradictory about letting you use the Dark Side and not being "dark." Depends on which game and which game mode. In JA and JK2 you're restricted to one side of the Force or the other in MP, but in SP they mix and "Dark Side" is based only on your choices. In MotS they're mixed in both modes. In JK1 it's based on your choices and your powers, and in MP it's sharply divided except at lower levels. Game mechanics also define a power as "Dark" or "Light" since in the movies we see Yoda use lightning and Luke use grip, and yet both are considered not to be Dark Siders.

And yet people continue to argue of course that neither event actually happened (that Yoda somehow contained and redistributed the lightning without actually using it himself and without anger, and the Luke just made the Gammoreans THINK they were choking and go to sleep without killing them), but whatever! ;)

Prime
02-15-2006, 02:55 PM
I have, and I see that a balance between the open-minded view of the NJO, and the narrow-minded view of the OJO.They use the open-minded view of the NJO in terms of the freedoms for the jedi (marriage and such), but not in terms of the moral and "there is no dark side" views of the Force, which is what I was refering to in the "balance" context.

balance of the force means that 1: you can openly use both sides of the force in battle when nessesary. (Video games)But keep in mind that only the games' stories themselves are generally considered canon (on a case by case basis), not gameplay mechanics. Thus, the ability to use both sides in a game does not reflect the overall EU storyline, and even different games conflict with each other anyway. Gameplay is the most important factor in this instance (as it should be).

and 2: Essential things for any person such as love, hate, anger or happiness and helping are committed to Jedi principal's...I'm confused about what you are saying here. Anger and hate are specifically excluded from a Jedi's principles, and the use of such emotions goes against the Jedi code.

without Vader, Luke would not have recreated the order...which would mean that the second way to balance the force would never happen...But the Force exists and is in balance regardless of whether the Jedi exist or not. As long as Vader destroyed the Emperor he would have fulfilled the prophecy, regardless of whether Luke survived or not.

Where do people get the idea that the balance of the Force is related to the number of Force users? What are people basing this on?

Also, if I'm wrong, Anakin would have to have eliminated more than just the Sith, as they are not the only Dark Side Cult out there.In the EU yes, in the film world no. Which as Kurgan said shows why the EU introduces all sorts of problems if you try and bring it into the film world. But that isn't really necessary, since Lucas has explained that the EU is a parallel universe that does not infringe on the movies, and vice versa. But that also means that the EU can't really be used to prove points about the films.

The only reason they are keeping these extra Dark and Light siders around is because it's so deeply entrenched in the fabric of the EU. Plus and they want some way to make stories about Jedi and Sith (even if they don't call them "Sith") to make people remember cool parts of the movies to sell products so they need some excuse to do so.Which again is a good reason why the two universes are considered seperate. It provides a means to create a wider range of stories.

So now we're stuck with the prophecy. Maybe it was BS, but Lucas seems to feel that by his actions in ROTJ, Vader brings balance to the Force.Which shows that the "by the numbers" interpretation of the prophecy has to be incorrect. But then again, I don't see how that view arose in the first place.

The games are contradictory about letting you use the Dark Side and not being "dark." Depends on which game and which game mode. In JA and JK2 you're restricted to one side of the Force or the other in MP, but in SP they mix and "Dark Side" is based only on your choices. In MotS they're mixed in both modes. In JK1 it's based on your choices and your powers, and in MP it's sharply divided except at lower levels.Which is fine since gameplay is the focus in this case. The mechanics are not canon anyway and so do not directly reflect how the universe works. But as long is they are fun, that is the key. :)

Kurgan
02-16-2006, 03:51 PM
PS: You could also say that in Jedi Academy Kyle Katarn tells you in the game's storyline that you can use both "Dark" and "Light" powers because no power is actually "dark" or "light" it's just how you use it. ;) So there's something that's not a strict game mechanic. Of course you could argue that Kyle is just mistaken in this point of course!

Prime
02-16-2006, 05:05 PM
PS: You could also say that in Jedi Academy Kyle Katarn tells you in the game's storyline that you can use both "Dark" and "Light" powers because no power is actually "dark" or "light" it's just how you use it. ;) So there's something that's not a strict game mechanic. Of course you could argue that Kyle is just mistaken in this point of course!True enough. :) I believe lucas licensing mentioned that games (and parts thereof?) are taken on a case by case basis. Perhaps Kyle is only explaining the gameplay mechanism?

Kurgan
02-16-2006, 10:45 PM
Perhaps. You can choose/use Dark Side powers exclusively in the game and yet according to the storyline you remain on the "light side." And killing allied NPC's at best will make you "fail" the mission, but won't say you turned to the Dark Side, iirc! The only real way to turn is to attack Rosh after he surrenders near the end of the game.

Interesting that Lucas Liscensing clarified that point, but it's an important one as many of us have suspected over the years, since all the game plots can't realistically be reconciled with the movies.

Kurgan
02-21-2006, 08:41 PM
Wow, we are SO pulling Godwin's Law.



XDD

Is the comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Empire really necessary?

Considering Lucas himself makes the comparison, I think it's a valid one. ;)

El Sitherino
02-23-2006, 04:54 PM
And the fact that he took most of the Empire stuff from World War II related films and stories.

Hell, where do you think he got the name "Stormtroopers" from?

Kryllith
02-27-2006, 03:24 PM
If we assume the Taoist interpretation (which disagrees with Lucas's stated intent so I disregard it) that you have an equal number of Light and Dark practicioners for balance, then Anakin actually unbalanced the Force when he died. Or else Luke ruined it by starting up his New Jedi Order. As long as they keep killing "Dark Jedi" then they're fighting the prophecy. So who's the Chosen One know? Why make a prophecy about this one event if it's just something you have to do again every week?

I prefer the Taoist view, but I think arguing for it places too much emphasis on numbers. It's not a matter of how many people are Jedi and how many are Sith (or Light and Dark), it's a matter of how much positive or negative influence is being applied. You might have 1 very powerful Sith and 3 moderately powerful Jedi and have the balance of power be roughly equal. Having said that, the death of Anakin wouldn't necessitate unbalancing the Force, and it's possible that his death would even be required to keep it in balance. Darth had a lot of evil in him, and his sacrifice might have been enough to balance him or even making him somewhat light, but if doesn't die then it's not really a sacrifice. In any case, we're left with Luke, who frankly I see as being gray than light or dark. His heart's in the right place but he does give into his fear and his anger and he does use dark side powers (force choke and calling on the darkside). Heck, from what we see he probably uses the Dark side as much as the Light which put him in the middle, hence the balance remains.

I think the real trick was what Quigon was preaching in the first movie, the need to follow the will of the living Force. Nature, essentially the Force serves to balance itself, and if the balance was shifted into the light then I've no problem with the Force taking in active role in the creation of Anakin specifically to decimate the Jedi to a point where the dark/light use is relatively equal. If Quigon is to be believed, the will of the Force is what's important, not the mandates of neither the Jedi nor Sith code/laws. Heck, even Obiwan points out Quigon's opposition to following the Jedi laws. Yoda is the one that bring up fear when talking to Anakin because he runs the council; Quigon never even mentions it, but simply indicates that one must quiet the mind in order to listen to what the Force has to say.

Having said all that, however, I've no problem with George's interpretation (that the Sith cause the imbalance as other's have said, though I've not heard it from George's mouth since I've not viewed all the commentaries). It's his story afterall, so he can tell it however he wants. Doesn't mean I think it's the more interesting one though.

Kryllith

Prime
02-28-2006, 01:16 PM
It's not a matter of how many people are Jedi and how many are Sith (or Light and Dark), it's a matter of how much positive or negative influence is being applied. You might have 1 very powerful Sith and 3 moderately powerful Jedi and have the balance of power be roughly equal. But the prophecy says the Chosen One will destroy the Sith. Isn't that contradictory if there are 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith? How does that bring balance in that case?

Having said that, the death of Anakin wouldn't necessitate unbalancing the Force, and it's possible that his death would even be required to keep it in balance. Darth had a lot of evil in him, and his sacrifice might have been enough to balance him or even making him somewhat light, but if doesn't die then it's not really a sacrifice. So you are saying is is only "sort of" redeemed?

Luke, who frankly I see as being gray than light or dark. His heart's in the right place but he does give into his fear and his anger and he does use dark side powers (force choke and calling on the darkside). Heck, from what we see he probably uses the Dark side as much as the Light which put him in the middle, hence the balance remains. But at the end he turns away from the dark side, which was the point of the OT. He sees at the end that he was starting to follow his father's path, and turns away from it. In the end he isn't "gray" at all.

I think the real trick was what Quigon was preaching in the first movie, the need to follow the will of the living Force. Nature, essentially the Force serves to balance itself, and if the balance was shifted into the light then I've no problem with the Force taking in active role in the creation of Anakin specifically to decimate the Jedi to a point where the dark/light use is relatively equal. How do you define the Living Force? From the Making of the Episode 1, the Living Force "makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera". What does this have to do with overall balance? The Living Force focuses on the "here and now", not on the overall cosmic state of the universe. That is the domain of the Unifying Force, which Qui-Gon didn't care as much about.

If Quigon is to be believed, the will of the Force is what's important, not the mandates of neither the Jedi nor Sith code/laws. Heck, even Obiwan points out Quigon's opposition to following the Jedi laws.Qui-Gon was a maverick, but I think it is a stretch to say he didn't care about Jedi laws or the code. In fact, while he disagrees with some of the council's decisions, he does abide by them.

For example, when he says he will take Anakin as a padawan and the council says you can't have more than one, he indicates that Obi-Wan is ready for the Trials and so won't be his padawan anymore. After Yoda says no deal, Qui-Gon says tells Anakin that he isn't allowed to train him directly. In both cases, he did not say, "**** the council and the Jedi laws, I'm going to do what I want because the Force tells me to."

So I don't think it was fair to say that he didn't think the Jedi laws were important. He merely had disagreements with the council on the proper course of action from time to time.

Yoda is the one that bring up fear when talking to Anakin because he runs the council; Quigon never even mentions it, but simply indicates that one must quiet the mind in order to listen to what the Force has to say.Qui-Gon does mention that, "the boys future is uncertain, he is not dangerous." However, in the end we see that Yoda was right and Anakin did have much fear in him. It can be argued why that was the case...

Darth_Malak02
02-28-2006, 06:22 PM
the force is balance...how you use it isn't...

Kryllith
03-01-2006, 02:20 AM
But the prophecy says the Chosen One will destroy the Sith. Isn't that contradictory if there are 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith? How does that bring balance in that case?

It's been a little while since I've seen the movies now, but I recall the Prophecy focusing on bringing balance to the Force, at least that's what Windu and Yoda talk about when Quigon mentions the vergence. I don't recall anyone in the movies specifically saying that the chosen would destroy the Sith (though I could be misremembering). Besides, even if the Jedi believed that what the Chosen One was supposed to do, Yoda pretty much admits in RotS that the Counsel may have misinterpreted the Prophecy.

So you are saying is is only "sort of" redeemed?
I'm saying he made a concious choice to defy the Emperor for the love of his son. The elimination of the Emperor doesn't necessarily cancel out all the Darkness within Vader. The choice puts him on the right path, and had he continued to survived and continued to live out his life then yeah, I could see him being back on the light side. I think his sacrifice was sufficient to "redeem" him, to heal him spiritually, which is why we originally see him as being whole in the original ending of RotJ. Btw, this is one of the reason I hate the new ending, the idea that his life from the time he became Vader just was undone and we see him when he was young... seems to me it belittles his fall and the importance of his choice to save Luke.

But at the end he turns away from the dark side, which was the point of the OT. He sees at the end that he was starting to follow his father's path, and turns away from it. In the end he isn't "gray" at all.

Same as above, pretty much. Sure he chooses not to go to the Dark Side, but that doesn't necessarily erase all the times he's used the Dark Side powers nor all the times he's let his fear and anger control him. So he didn't become a Sith, that doesn't make him a Saint. The difference here is you seem to want to argue in absolutes while I want to argue the shades of gray. I'd say Luke has a bit to make up for if he's going to be all nice and shiny, but unfortunately we don't see what happens to him next (in the movies that is).

How do you define the Living Force? From the Making of the Episode 1, the Living Force "makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera". What does this have to do with overall balance? The Living Force focuses on the "here and now", not on the overall cosmic state of the universe. That is the domain of the Unifying Force, which Qui-Gon didn't care as much about.
I may be mistaken in my interpretation of the Living Force, as I've not watched the making of (or if I haven't I don't remember that part). My take is that Quigon believed that Force users should follow the will of the Force, that they should quiet their minds to hear what the Force was trying to say to them and then carry out its desires/commands. Granted he used the Force to his own ends, and he did serve the Jedi cause, but ultimately it seems that he was more concerned with actually serving the Force than serving those who developed codas for bending the Force to their own will, be it for good or evil.

Qui-Gon was a maverick, but I think it is a stretch to say he didn't care about Jedi laws or the code. In fact, while he disagrees with some of the council's decisions, he does abide by them.

For example, when he says he will take Anakin as a padawan and the council says you can't have more than one, he indicates that Obi-Wan is ready for the Trials and so won't be his padawan anymore. After Yoda says no deal, Qui-Gon says tells Anakin that he isn't allowed to train him directly. In both cases, he did not say, "**** the council and the Jedi laws, I'm going to do what I want because the Force tells me to."

Ties into my previous answer. Quigon was a Jedi, so he did follow orders, and I'm not saying that he didn't care about the laws or code, but that he probably felt that the Force itself should be the ultimate guide. I'd like to have seen his character develop more and see what path he might have chosen in the later movies, but unfortunately he died too soon. As for training Anakin, I believe Quigon respects the council enough to follow the letter of the law, if not the spirit. I'm willing to bet that had he survived though, he would have continued to push for Anakin's training. Heck, even Yoda concedes to Obiwan that one of the reasons he was willing to allow Obiwan to train Anakin was because he didn't want Obiwan to share Quigon's defiance.

Prime
03-01-2006, 03:21 PM
I don't recall anyone in the movies specifically saying that the chosen would destroy the Sith (though I could be misremembering). I believe Kenobi asks, "Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?" To which Windu responds, "So the prophecy says."

Besides, even if the Jedi believed that what the Chosen One was supposed to do, Yoda pretty much admits in RotS that the Counsel may have misinterpreted the Prophecy. I think what he is wondering about is the fact that they know the Sith are in existence but Anakin does not appear to be on the path to destroying them. There is nothing to imply that he is thinking, "Whoops, maybe the prophecy said Jedi and not Sith." :)

I'm saying he made a concious choice to defy the Emperor for the love of his son. The elimination of the Emperor doesn't necessarily cancel out all the Darkness within Vader. What do you mean by cancel out. Cancelling it out with what?

The choice puts him on the right path, and had he continued to survived and continued to live out his life then yeah, I could see him being back on the light side. I think his sacrifice was sufficient to "redeem" him, to heal him spiritually, which is why we originally see him as being whole in the original ending of RotJ. Since he is a force ghost, we know he has been redeemed and gone back to the light. He has already reached that point at his death.

Btw, this is one of the reason I hate the new ending, the idea that his life from the time he became Vader just was undone and we see him when he was young... seems to me it belittles his fall and the importance of his choice to save Luke.I couldn't agree more.

Sure he chooses not to go to the Dark Side, but that doesn't necessarily erase all the times he's used the Dark Side powers nor all the times he's let his fear and anger control him. But there isn't really a tally of all things that he has done and a total sum that determines whether he is a servant of the dark side or not. Luke had started to submit to the temptation of the dark side, and starts to go down that path. At the end he resists that tempation and escapes that hold and follows the "light side".

So he didn't become a Sith, that doesn't make him a Saint. It doesn't really have anything to do with being a saint. I has more to do with how you are using the force and calling upon the dark side. Not using the dark side and following the Jedi way does not make him the Pope. With a tally system surely it would be impossible for Vader to ever be redeemed and return to the light as we see in ROTJ, considering he was at least in part responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order, killing who knows how many people on all sides of the conflict, and so on. In that case simply saving his son would not account for what we see.

The difference here is you seem to want to argue in absolutes while I want to argue the shades of gray. To some extent. To be fair, Lucas explains that he has set up a mythical universe that does use the traditional concepts of good and evil that do not necessarily reflect how our world operates. Really, you are either on the path of the light, or more accurately, not corrupting the Force to achieve your own ends, or on the path to the dark side.

I'd say Luke has a bit to make up for if he's going to be all nice and shiny, but unfortunately we don't see what happens to him next (in the movies that is). Make what up to who?

Granted he used the Force to his own ends, and he did serve the Jedi cause, but ultimately it seems that he was more concerned with actually serving the Force than serving those who developed codes for bending the Force to their own will, be it for good or evil.The Jedi don't attempt to force (no pun intended) the Force to be good or apply any morality to it. Morality is only applied to how they serve the Republic as guardians of peace. They are not altering the Force from its natural state. The Sith, on the other hand, do use the dark side and alter it from its natural state.

On a side note, the term "Will of the Force" is often used, but I have yet to see a definition of what that actually is. What is the Force trying to achieve? Is it sentient? I think too often that phrase is involked as a excuse for someone to do whatever the hell they want. :)

Kurgan
03-10-2006, 11:21 PM
Well I guess the short answer to this question "Did Anakin bring balance to the Force?"

Is:

According to George Lucas and the Star Wars movies: YES.

According to the EU (unless there's a massive rewrite): NO. Or "MAYBE... from a certain point of view."

The prophecy is first discussed in depth in TPM about bringing balance. In ROTS that's where characters start talking about it being to "destroy the Sith." So I guess in those 13 years, that's how the Council came to interpret it. In a deleted scene of AOTC, Mace Windu tells Obi-Wan to "have faith" that Anakin will make the right choice. He almost sounds like he is a believer in the prophecy and Anakin's fullfilling it. Too bad Lucas didn't go with this development (it would have been more interesting I think), as Windu seems totally against Anakin in ROTS (though I guess he could have changed his mind in 3 years).

carvin77
03-29-2006, 08:21 AM
yes, in my opinion...

Prime
03-29-2006, 04:38 PM
According to George Lucas and the Star Wars movies: YES.

According to the EU (unless there's a massive rewrite): NO. That could be applied to many a Star Wars question...

jomaster
03-29-2006, 05:57 PM
always with the 'from a certain point of view' the fact that you can answer almost any SW question with that is pure genious

I've heard people say 'oh he did because in the end there was two jedi (kenobi and yoda) and two sith (palpatine and vader) surely this doesn't mean the force is balanced just because there is the same number on both sides seeing as how sme jedi/sith are more powerful than others so i guess the answer is no. (from a certain point of view of course ;)

but heres a new angle on it:

how did the force become unbalanced in the first place??

TK-8252
03-29-2006, 06:45 PM
how did the force become unbalanced in the first place??

Rise of the Sith...

jomaster
03-30-2006, 12:11 PM
ahhhhh of course *slaps himself in the head* sorry i was tired

Darth Alec
03-30-2006, 02:23 PM
Rise of the Sith...

Then return of the jedi......
Having only jedi does not make the force balanced, it makes it unbalanced.
And Luke is more of a "shades of grey" character, he does use the darkside, but does not join the sith.

And the number issue, having a hundred guys with nothing, or one guy with a heavy machinegun, it's not balanced.

Prime
03-30-2006, 03:24 PM
Then return of the jedi......
Having only jedi does not make the force balanced, it makes it unbalanced.
And Luke is more of a "shades of grey" character, he does use the darkside, but does not join the sith.Incorrect.

Point Man
03-30-2006, 11:36 PM
And Luke is more of a "shades of grey" character, he does use the darkside, but does not join the sith.
Luke was not a "gray" character. He was good, not evil. He used his anger against Vader, but realized what he was doing in time to stop. After that he did not use the dark side. He was even willing to die and to sacrifice his friends rather than continue to use the dark side. How much more light side can you get than to risk your life to redeem the man responsible for nearly exterminating the Jedi, and who nearly killed you?