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View Full Version : Playable Heroes... (no flames please)


teeth_03
10-07-2004, 02:59 PM
I notice some of you'se arent too enthused about the idea of playable jedi/sith. So my idea would be,replace all the units with jedi/sith so theres not a big balancing difference.Give em all a lightsaber and maybe give em each different force powers for the different classes.

I dont really know,but is that the reason nobody wants playable Heros,cuz of the Hero vs Regualr guy thing?

CodeDrifter
10-07-2004, 03:09 PM
I definatly like the idea though I don't know if it will get much support. You'd also need to get models for the different classes.

TK-8252
10-07-2004, 03:52 PM
:roleyess:

The game is not about Jedi. This is a game about playing as the grunts.

All the Jedi fanboys need to give it up. Don't try to ruin yet another Star Wars game. If you want to be a Jedi, go play a Jedi game. Simple as that.

"We're keepers-of-the-peace, not soldiers." ~ Mace Windu

teeth_03
10-07-2004, 04:05 PM
well,it would be kewl to at least do sumtin like the Geonosian arena,notice all the Jedi there?

Yes,we can go play Jedi games,but not too many have the features like this game.One way or another if it CAN be done,being the Jedi in this game WILL happen most likely

TK-8252
10-07-2004, 04:09 PM
Sure, there were Jedi on Geonosis. But was it Jedi vs. Sith? No... so how would you balance a team of Jedi vs. CIS?

If a Jedi mod comes out we'll just have to see - will it die due to the majority of the community using their common sense, or the Jedi fanboys spam them like Jedi Knight admin mods?

teeth_03
10-07-2004, 05:50 PM
well,they dont gotta be invincable ya know,like in there,if theres enuf Droids,they can conquer.If a jedi/sith has a lightsaber and one forse power,if they're weak as a reg trooper,and can deflect some of the shots fired,I dont see how it wouldn't be that bad

TK-8252
10-07-2004, 05:54 PM
"if theres enuf Droids"

So you mean there needs to be a team of droids to take down one Jedi? Wow, that sounds balanced.

"I dont see how it wouldn't be that bad"

Then you're not looking hard enough.

*Sigh* When are these Jedi fanboys going to give it up? Jedi are NOT meant for this game. Normal people play Battlefront to get away from these games ruined by Jedi. So you're suggesting to ruin ANOTHER game by bringing Jedi in?

teeth_03
10-07-2004, 06:21 PM
i'll make note to start dissen your ideas when u bring one up, i said this could be a mod,not everybody has DL it,just us "Jedi Flyboys",we have have no intentions of ruining the game and I appreciate if you quit downing every word I say

TK-8252
10-07-2004, 06:34 PM
It's "fanboy", and this Jedi nonsense has been done to death.

You should just read all the "We want Jedi... No, we don't" threads in the SWBF forum before posting an idea that has already been trashed.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137268 - Read away

"i'll make note to start dissen your ideas when u bring one up,"

That's real mature...

i said this could be a mod,not everybody has DL it,

If a server is running it, you don't have to download it. You're FORCED to play against Jedi. If you've ever played Jedi Outcast/Academy, you'll know about server-side mods which were the death of the game.

teeth_03
10-07-2004, 06:56 PM
I apologize,but I am a newbie,and I dont know what has and not has been talked about. I'm just giving out mod ideas.Your the one quoting almost everything I say and saying negative comments about it, when I'm just giving out an idea.

I ask that a moderater plz lock this topic

Kurgan
10-09-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
:roleyess:

The game is not about Jedi. This is a game about playing as the grunts.

All the Jedi fanboys need to give it up. Don't try to ruin yet another Star Wars game. If you want to be a Jedi, go play a Jedi game. Simple as that.

"We're keepers-of-the-peace, not soldiers." ~ Mace Windu

I respect your right to crusade about your ideas, but this is flat out wrong (with respect to the movies).

Sure, we know what Mace SAID, but what did he do? He lead troops into battle. He fought on the front lines of the Clone War COMMANDING TROOPS. Things change. Not only that but we then had the Clone Wars cartoons which feature more of the same... Jedi Soldiers!

Watch those scenes of the battles in AOTC again. I see Jedi fighting and commanding troops. Looks pretty clear cut to me.

Heck, this isn't just a new thing, remember ANH? Luke's Father and Ben Kenobi fought in the Clone Wars, and Kenobi was a General.

Luke followed this proud tradition by being a fighter pilot for the Rebellion. In combat, he single-handedly took down an Imperial Walker with a grappling hook, his lightsaber and a well-place grenade. ; )

If you don't want Jedi fanboys, you will have to talk to LucasArts, they are the ones responsible for putting them into so many games and publishing games that feature them.

Sides man, we respect your right to make mods the way you want them to be made, why can't people make mods the way they want to? I don't expect Pandemic to make playable Jedi, focus on fixing the game instead. But mod makers? So what if they want to do this? Ruin "another game"? What are you talking about?

If you mean Jedi in Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast, well you're wrong there, because those games were specifically ABOUT Jedi. The only place non-Jedi figured in were the first couple SP levels of JK2 and 3 of the 4 Raven Siege maps in JA. If you mean the "honor code" don't give me that... most of us fought THOSE "fanboys" tooth and nail. There can still be found pure combat servers that don't obey those ridiculous "rules."

Perhaps the honor code inspired the abusive admin mods to be made, perhaps not. But it's really a seperate issue. Giving the admin the ability to slap/sleep/punish people is really independant of being able to play as Jedi. JK/MotS never had such mods created for them (granted, no SDK was ever released for those games). I hear tell that CounterStrike (which features no Jedi and isn't even anywhere related to Star Wars as far as I know) had abusive admin mods. So that alone should show that your fears are not destined to come true if Jedi are not made playable.

Are you worried that a Jedi Mod will cause "h0n0rz" to come up? Well, maybe, but that would imply it was a dueling mod, because as of now this is a war game, where dueling is irrelevant. You don't win based on kills, you win based on if your team completes their objectives.

I have my limits too man, but this isn't exactly an admin mod petition here... lighten up. ; )

With modding tools (or possibly even without) playable Jedi would not be that hard. However they would be WEAK Jedi, not Jedi Masters with acrobatics and full force abilities (like JA). Weak Jedi would not unbalance the game.

You want to talk about Geonosis? Well the Droids/Geonosians in that scenario had FAR SUPERIOR numbers AND firepower (hundreds if not 1,000 to 1, according to dialouge). The Jedi took massive casualties (from 200 down to what.. 20?) and lost that battle (they were rescued at the last minute by Yoda with the LAAT's & Clones). The CIS had Dooku (though he didn't do any actual fighting) and Fett (who did fight, and killed a Jedi before he himself was killed by Windu). So such a scenario COULD be workable, but my guess is it would be better suited to single player than MP (who wants to be part of a numerically inferior team? but I suppose you could give the droids just lots and lots more reinforcements as part of the balance).

As far as large numbers of Jedi fighting large numbers of Sith, no this isn't in the movies, but it's dang well in the Expanded Universe. Wait, scratch that, it is canon... in the (canon) TPM novelisation the thousand-year Jedi/Sith war is described. I rest my case...!

TK-8252
10-09-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Sure, we know what Mace SAID, but what did he do? He lead troops into battle. He fought on the front lines of the Clone War COMMANDING TROOPS. Things change. Not only that but we then had the Clone Wars cartoons which feature more of the same... Jedi Soldiers!

Watch those scenes of the battles in AOTC again. I see Jedi fighting and commanding troops. Looks pretty clear cut to me.

They were there to rescue the heros and stop Dooku. Someone who "fights" isn't a soldier. Ewoks aren't soldiers, they're warriors, but they fought the Imperials.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Luke followed this proud tradition by being a fighter pilot for the Rebellion. In combat, he single-handedly took down an Imperial Walker with a grappling hook, his lightsaber and a well-place grenade. ; )

Luke was a pilot, not a soldier. In Empire, he wasn't even a complete Jedi.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Sides man, we respect your right to make mods the way you want them to be made, why can't people make mods the way they want to?

So modders should make admin abuse mods too?

Originally posted by Kurgan
Ruin "another game"? What are you talking about?

I.e. Star Wars Galaxies. The Jedi fanboys whined enough that they got their patch to turn Galaxies into Star Wars Galaxies: Jedi Wars.

Originally posted by Kurgan
With modding tools (or possibly even without) playable Jedi would not be that hard. However they would be WEAK Jedi, not Jedi Masters with acrobatics and full force abilities (like JA). Weak Jedi would not unbalance the game.

Then the Jedi fanboys will start whining "the Jedi aren't good enough" or something, as if they expected to wipe out enemies with ease. Then they'll just stop playing Jedi, so what's the point of going through the trouble to mod it?

subs0nic
10-09-2004, 05:49 PM
I agree, jedi should be left as AI controlled heroes. They are not what this game is about, and I for one won't be working on modding them any time soon.

Kurgan
10-09-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
[B]They were there to rescue the heros and stop Dooku. Someone who "fights" isn't a soldier. Ewoks aren't soldiers, they're warriors, but they fought the Imperials.

Luke was a pilot, not a soldier. In Empire, he wasn't even a complete Jedi.

True enough about not being a complete Jedi. I consider a member of the armed forces to be a soldier. Army, Navy, Airforce, Marines, whatever. Maybe that's incorrect... In any case, in the prequels they are clearly soldiers. Not only desk jockey generals or advisors, but actual frontline ground troops.

As to the difference between soldiers and warriors, that's semantics. A warrior is someone who fights a war. What do soldiers do? Oh that's right, they fight wars! (They also do other things, but that's their main purpose).

I mean, the Rebels are all guerilla fighters, but they're still soldiers. The Stormtroopers are shock troops and elite forces, but they're soldiers.

Edit: Looked up the word on dictionary.com and a soldier is one who either serves in an army or is an enlisted or non-commissioned officer. So the Ewoks would count, since they have their own army, as would the Jedi in AOTC, the Clones, Stormtroopers, the Gungans, etc.

An "army" is defined as a large body of person's trained and organized for land warfare. So you're right, Luke was more of a pilot and advisor. He was trained to fight but he fought alone, mostly. In the movies he is given the title of "Commander" but that implies Navy or Coast Guard, rather than Army.


So modders should make admin abuse mods too?


I hope not! But making Jedi playable and making abusive admin mods are not the same thing by any means. Still, one could argue they have the same right to create them, but I think we can agree that's not a good idea. However I don't think we need to worry about such a thing being created because this isn't a dueling game with an unenforceable honor code tacted on.


I.e. Star Wars Galaxies. The Jedi fanboys whined enough that they got their patch to turn Galaxies into Star Wars Galaxies: Jedi Wars.

Actually Jedi and Starships, vehicles, and city building were ALL planned from the start. It was just because of budget and time that they were delayed. They didn't make up new features because of whining, rather people whined because the planned features had to be introduced later because of unforseen constraints.

Then the Jedi fanboys will start whining "the Jedi aren't good enough" or something, as if they expected to wipe out enemies with ease. Then they'll just stop playing Jedi, so what's the point of going through the trouble to mod it?

Because we're not creating it for the Jedi Fanboys in the first place! What the Jedi fanboys would want (ie: Jedi Academy quality Jedi) are never going to happen because you'd have to create a whole new game basically from scratch. It's far too much work, and would take at least a year of coding to get right.

This "quick 'n' dirty controllable Jedi" I'm suggesting would be little trouble for Pandemic and hopefully not very hard for a modder with the right tools. It would also be useful without compromising the Jedi hater's love of the purity of the game. It would please everyone, except the Jedi Fanboys, who as you say would not be playing this game in the first place.

Btw, we have a good discussion going about Jedi in SWBF already at this thread, please have a look (but leave your flames at home please):

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137904

MarcusLeCoy
10-10-2004, 08:35 AM
i was kinda hoping this thread would show stuff like being Han Solo, or Wedge Antilles, and other heroes as new classes...






hey... i have an idea :toothrot:

CodeDrifter
10-10-2004, 03:01 PM
Yeah, a fully trained Jedi Master would be way too much trouble, too unbalancing, and completely not what this games about. But, if you did say a Jedi with toned down blocking of lasers to make them easier to kill and a saber that is either weaker or the same as the Jedi Heroes it could work. Also if you make it so they have to be facing what their blocking, and the rockets and emp shots would be unblockable.

Or you could do New Republic vs. Vong and get a Jedi unique class and a Vong Warrior unique class for the melee people and then snipers etc. for everyone else with the stuff mentioned above.

TK-8252
10-10-2004, 03:05 PM
OMG, no Vong crap. :roleyess:

PR-0927
10-10-2004, 03:27 PM
Yuuzhan Vong PWN JOO!!

But, TK-8252 is right, no Jedi or Sith (or Dark Jedi). You people go and play JO/JA for that. Stay away from SWBF.

:fett:

MarcusLeCoy
10-10-2004, 05:56 PM
lol yeah.... jedi look wierd in BF anyway *shudders*

Kurgan
10-11-2004, 09:18 AM
I wonder if people would be so opposed to playable Jedi if they were "generic Padawans" (or Emperor's Hand Dark Jedi in the case of the Empire or whatnot) rather than Jedi Masters like they are now...

Or Clone Wars (animated series) era Jedi in uniform...


One thing about Heroes I think is that they should not be "immortal." They should have finite health and be killable more ways than just running them over or blasting them into pits. Thus made mortal, their AI should be tweaked so they are actually useful. Having them follow orders would be nice too.

I mean, who would want an invincible Boba Fett or Han Solo running around? They'd be even worse than the invincible Jedi because they have actual ranged weapons!

Armydude71490
10-12-2004, 08:56 AM
I agree with TK-8252

I bought this game for the main reason that it was a starwars game where Jedi/sith do not rule sure I know that there are the "Heros" but you can't play them and be a god compaired to all other troops!

Edit: wait I agree with Kurgan

And how did I make two posts!

subs0nic
10-12-2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Armydude71490
I agree with TK-8252

I bought this game for the main reason that it was a starwars game where Jedi/sith do not rule sure I know that there are the "Heros" but you can't play them and be a god compaired to all other troops!

Actually, you can, but since I'm not in favour of it I'm not going to link to it. :)

shammo99
10-12-2004, 02:39 PM
How about getting the best of both worlds and have a powerup?

Something along the lines of "Yodas Wisdom" - yoda sitting on a carpet rotating icon on the battlefield.

One player from each faction at any one time can get this - it appears randomly across a map and you can get it if you want or not....

Shadey
10-12-2004, 04:12 PM
Fair enough if some people don't like Jedi but as to them 'not being what this game is about'

Thats the brilliance of modding, you can make it 'about' anything.

I think I would prefer if the main stayed as is with no playable jedi but an army of jedi vs an army of sith, both either by themselves or backed up by regular grunts is a cool idea.

I like the idea of playing as an ordinary soldier and playing as a jedi. You seem appossed to even the idea of a mod about. which obviously you wouldnt have to download or play.

It just adds more variety and its in character, how can that be bad. Putting artifical limits (genres for example) on what a game should be like is one of the things that stiffles game inovation.

As to telling people to go play JA, its a different game. By that reason why do anything if its ever been done before in another game. The larger numbers, the vehicles, the maps weapons the whole style is different, its not the same as JA. I could tell you if you wanted to play as soldier turn down (if I remeber you cant turn it off) force and turn off sabers in JA, but of course thats different, it wouldnt make much sense for me to say that but no less so than for you to tell the jedi supporters to go play JA.

To reiterate, both playing as a soldier and as a jedi have their attractions, I like that the main game has only ordinary soldiers but if I felt like a thrash on a battlefield (as appossed to a arena which is more JA style) in battlefront with a jedi then a mod would be a great idea.

TK-8252
10-12-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Shadey
which obviously you wouldnt have to download or play.

I guess you haven't played Jedi Outcast or Academy and seen what admin mods are like on servers.

If a Jedi mod were server-side, you don't have to download it, so if half the servers get brainwashed with playable Jedi mods, you have no choice. You'll have to struggle to find a decent non-Jedi server, or play single player.

L2.0
10-12-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Actually Jedi and Starships, vehicles, and city building were ALL planned from the start. It was just because of budget and time that they were delayed. They didn't make up new features because of whining, rather people whined because the planned features had to be introduced later because of unforseen constraints.

Jedi were also s'possed to be extremely rare, hard to play, and die permanently after 3 deaths. The whining did come and with it SOE's removal of it's "organic system" has single-handedly ruined a game many people have been waiting to play since 1977.

I always remembered the movies being about the Alliance trying to restore peace and order to the galaxy by overthrowing the Imperial Empire...Jedi were mostly an after-thought until the Prequels.

RhailX
10-12-2004, 06:09 PM
For all of you still posting here, read my thread titled "ENOUGH".

That's all I have to say!

Kurgan
10-12-2004, 06:57 PM
We should probably keep the debates to a minimum. I see this is a very touchy subject with people (I admit I did my part to keep the debate alive in a couple of threads). Sorry to get us off track....

Let's leave the topics in Editing related to Modding, and the debates in the regular forum.

That way we don't clutter things up and turn every forum into a battleground (no pun intended).

Deal? ; )

If anyone wishes to discuss or post about editing/modding of playable heroes (without the debates), please start a new thread in the appropriate forum or contribute to an existing one...