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DK_Viceroy
10-22-2004, 04:06 PM
Maybe for SWGB 2 their could be a type of research area that no other civ would get access to. For example while the Republic would get access to Infantry weapons and a unique tech area of Advanced Cloning Techniques. They wouldn't get access to the Confederacies Unique Tech Field which would be something like Advanced Droid Design.

Admiral Vostok
10-22-2004, 09:05 PM
Just when I complimented you on your punctuation you post this horrendously confusing string of words. Please rephrase (or should that be "phrase") if you want a decent response.

Darth Windu
10-23-2004, 12:21 AM
Viceroy - i would say no. Instead of producing techs to make each civ unique, i would rather just give them unique units. Much easier and more better.

DK_Viceroy
10-23-2004, 05:29 AM
No I was Suggesting Fileds of reserach that each civ could have in addition to having unique units, buildings and everything else.

They'd propably have shared techs but these Unique Tech fields will help show more diveristy.

Darth Windu
10-23-2004, 09:05 PM
Viceroy - but again, why do you need unique research fileds if the units themselves are already unique? It just adds more irrelevant micro-management to the game with no gain.

DK_Viceroy
10-24-2004, 02:03 AM
What I'm syaing is that all civs may share common techs, and who said it would be any more micromanagement thatn now?

Admiral Vostok
10-24-2004, 09:52 AM
I think unique techs here and there are a must, but I can't see the advantage of entire fields of techs being unique. For example with the Republic cloning you could maybe have one tech that upgrades their build time and another that decreases their cost but that's about it - more suited to two unique techs than a whole unique field of cloning research. The only exception would maybe be if the Republic was the only civ to have Jedi, then there would be some the unique field of Jedi techs that only they have.

DK_Viceroy
10-24-2004, 11:01 AM
Yeah that's kinda what I have in mind except i'll give examples.

Confederacy

Advanced Droid Research

Upgrades For Troopers

Creation

Cost

Build Time

Firepower

Upgrades For Mechs

Air Targetting

Fast Moving Object Targetting

Firepower

Power Requirements

and so on so forth

Admiral Vostok
10-24-2004, 01:39 PM
But surely most of those techs you've listed would work better as generic techs. Advanced Droid Research is the only real Confederacy-specific tech. Then you have Fast Moving Object Targetting, which doesn't suit the Confederacy at all.

But this brings up another issue that strangely we haven't really discussed before. What form should research take in SWGB2? I know Windu wants his method of research, but most of us don't, so I'm referring to the traditional research method.

The way I see it, there are two options:[list=1] Mostly generic research with some unique techs (eg Age of Mythology)
Completely unique research (eg C&C Generals)[/list=1]Personally I prefer the first option as I think it fits Star Wars better. For the most part the armies of Star Wars are quite similar, and this should be reflected in their technology. Using generic techs also means it is easier to have a lot of techs, which is what I like in a game.

However the few unique techs amongst the generic set would be highly characterful for the armies, something like this:
Clone Growth Acceleration (Republic): All infantry (except Jedi) are produced twice as fast.
Astromech Navigators (Rebels): X-Wings and Y-Wings have better accuracy and slowly self-repair.

Again you'd have completely unique fields of tech for something like Republic Jedi, if they were the only ones to get Jedi.

DK_Viceroy
10-24-2004, 02:10 PM
Well I'm one for making the Confederacy Have to provide Power ot their droid's or have some sort of Transmission Building so They could have techs that Allow them to stay actuive for longer while either of those sources are inoperable.

Darth Windu
10-24-2004, 08:22 PM
Vostok - i will at this point take issue with some of your examples.
For example with the Republic cloning you could maybe have one tech that upgrades their build time and another that decreases their cost
Why not instead use a unique building (Cloning Center) and natural uniqueness of the units themselves?

All infantry (except Jedi) are produced twice as fast
Again, unique buildings surfice quite well here.

X-Wings and Y-Wings have better accuracy and slowly self-repair
This is an example of why natural bonuses are better. Instead of starting off where you have to research Astromechs for your Y and X-wings to self-repair, there is a far easier and more starwarsy method of having this from the start. It feels more like Star Wars because the units are already how we see them in the films, and you dont have to keep checking if you have researched all 734 techs.

Admiral Vostok
10-25-2004, 02:59 PM
Why not instead use a unique building (Cloning Center) and natural uniqueness of the units themselves?To me, an actual tech makes more sense. The Kaminoans had to research growth acceleration to make their clones grow faster so they can get armies ready quicker. They could just clone people normally, but then they'd take 20 years to make an army. Similarly, the education system the Kaminoans use for the clones is one of their own initiatives - in essence, a researched tech - that makes the clones excellent in all manner of warfare. I suppose it could easily be done with a unique building too, but since in my design each civ has a unique set of buildings the effect isn't as profound as in your design.
This is an example of why natural bonuses are better. Instead of starting off where you have to research Astromechs for your Y and X-wings to self-repair, there is a far easier and more starwarsy method of having this from the start. It feels more like Star Wars because the units are already how we see them in the films, and you dont have to keep checking if you have researched all 734 techs.It's true that that is more realistic, but it is makes for poor gameplay. If the Rebels can get shielded, self-repairing, highly-accurate fighters as soon as any aircraft become available, they will own any civ. This is why in SWGB aircraft don't come with shields as standard; early in the game it is tricky to counter air and the aircraft certainly don't need these bonuses early on. If the techs become available through research, not only does it make the player think more about resource allocation for research, but it gives opponents a fighting chance against an air rush.

Darth Windu
10-26-2004, 02:01 AM
Vostok - but although the Rebel fighters would already have shields, the enemy would also already have anti-air defences such as Rocket Troopers. You also have to remember that in my template you have to research the units themselves, so in order to get Y-wings and X-wings you have to invest in aircraft research, and you will gain access to the Y-wing before the X-wing, then the A-wing and the B-wing.

Admiral Vostok
10-26-2004, 08:53 AM
But as each civ progresses their ability to deal with threats also becomes better. They may have rocket troopers from early on, but unless you mass rocket troopers then a fighter rush (especially a fully upgraded fighter rush) will be quite crippling.

And why is the Y-Wing available before the X-Wing? The Y-Wing in numbers is possibly even more dangerous than the X-Wing, but also the X-Wing is the standard, base unit of the Rebellion and should be the first available.

DK_Viceroy
10-26-2004, 10:50 AM
I'd actually agree with Windu on the order they would come in.

It's of course Immutable Canon Holy Goshpel it is well Known that early on the Rebel's had to use Y-Wings as fighters indeed they didn't get X-Wings for quite a while until Incom Defected from the Empire along with their new fighter design.

All this Talk about templates is making me reconsider withdrawing from the Template buisness.

Admiral Vostok
10-26-2004, 01:18 PM
Well the movies certainly don't support the fact that X-Wings came after Y-Wings, but the stronger of my arguments is for gameplay purposes. Clearly the Y-Wing is the more heavily armed aircraft and should come after the X-Wing for this reason alone.

DK_Viceroy
10-26-2004, 01:36 PM
The Movie's neither deny or confirm that fact Vostok please so not try to misldead the Jury.

I am sorely Tempted with coming up with a template especially since as of late I've even been toying around with a few ideas to replace Pop slots and have unique equivalent's of them while at the same time having an open ended unit limit that is as high as your economy can support it.

Admiral Vostok
10-26-2004, 01:49 PM
I never said they deny or confirm it, that's my whole point. If making the X-Wing available first isn't unrealistic according to the movies, then make it do so for gameplay's sake.

DK_Viceroy
10-26-2004, 01:56 PM
I'd say the Y-wing is more of a Fighter bomber than either or the other.

Remeber we must be careful around here it's like a court room.

Admiral Vostok
10-26-2004, 02:05 PM
Exactly. In every RTS game I've played, weaker units (fighters) are available before stronger units (fighter-bombers). Again I'm appealling in the name of gameplay.

DK_Viceroy
10-26-2004, 02:15 PM
Actually I'm thinking in more realism Terms what's the point of sending in bombers if you don't have air Superiority ergo fighters would go first.

However in the case of the Y-wing you could get it earlier but it wouldn't be equipped with bombs yet you could load it out with bombs later.

Admiral Vostok
10-26-2004, 02:20 PM
Whatever. Makes no sense to me from a gameplay perspective, but you can do whatever weird things you want in your own RTS design.

DK_Viceroy
10-26-2004, 02:29 PM
* Jumps up and down in a frenzy*

I never said I was actually going to I said I was thinking about it.

The idea of having a unit like the Y-Wing as a fighter initially and then converting it into a Fighter bomber is Canon To star wars not only that It's an idea never really tried out in RTS gaming.

DarthMuffin
10-26-2004, 03:06 PM
Heh, this place is just dying, it's not even funny.

I thought about giving a sign of life, so I figured I might drop my opinion here :

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Viceroy - i would say no. Instead of producing techs to make each civ unique, i would rather just give them unique units. Much easier and more better.

Everything has been said.

DK_Viceroy
10-26-2004, 03:39 PM
* Roars And Shreiks*

Topic's Evolve now we're discussing about how Techs and units could interact in SWGB2.

Everything has been said.

and saying something like that is in Contempt of court and is a Deliberate attempt to kill this place right when it's becomming Lively.

Admiral Vostok
10-26-2004, 07:43 PM
The idea of having a unit like the Y-Wing as a fighter initially and then converting it into a Fighter bomber is Canon To star warsNo it isn't. :rolleyes: I would have thought by now you'd know what Canon is. At least you're spelling it correctly :)

Darth Windu
10-26-2004, 11:57 PM
Vostok - i actually agree with you, the X-wing should comne before the Y-wing. The Y-wing first would give the Rebels too much of an advantage with the Proton Torpedoes, which would allow the Rebels to pummle any early enemy base.

Viceroy - As for the Y-wing coming before the X-wing, Vostok is right in that the films dont say the Y-wing or the X-wing came first. The problem with EU is that it thinks of the Y-wing as a fighter, then made a bomber when the X-wing came along, whereas the films seem to indicate the X-wing is the fighter, with the Y-wing a more rugged but less agile strike aircraft, enabling it to better withstand enemy fire.

DK_Viceroy
10-27-2004, 04:25 AM
Anyway Let's ignore that little argument and get back onto a topic.

Technologies should their cost relate to how many units they are upgrading. So say if you had none of that unit yet the cost wouldn't be as great as say if you had a hundred of that unit.

Also should all units be upgraded immediatley or will they have to return to a building that makes that type of unit or should the not be upgraded but new one would be or should upgrades be ferried out by some sort of unit (ala porter from BFME).

Admiral Vostok
10-27-2004, 08:05 AM
Technologies should their cost relate to how many units they are upgrading. So say if you had none of that unit yet the cost wouldn't be as great as say if you had a hundred of that unit.That sounds fair enough, though I have to wonder why most games don't do it this way. Perhaps this will lend itself too well to turtling, so a person builds the bare essential units to get by until late game when they've researched all the techs. It certainly makes sense from a realism point of view but I'm undecided about the gameplay aspect.
Also should all units be upgraded immediatley or will they have to return to a building that makes that type of unit or should the not be upgraded but new one would be or should upgrades be ferried out by some sort of unit (ala porter from BFME).Although it's the least realistic, I'd prefer my unit to just upgrade automatically rather than send them back to base or have something ferried out to them. Alternatively though the unit could "shut down" for a period of time, unable to attack (but can still be attacked) whilst they're upgrading their gear. But that could end up being just as annoying as returning to base.

DK_Viceroy
10-27-2004, 08:25 AM
Well it would add to the strategy Element where you would have to rotate troops from your base to the front line and from the front line to the base.

If you did that and units would have to stay near the building they were created at for say 10 seconds then they could move elsewhere upgraded.

The idea of units and cost relation hasn't really been explored in many RTS's the only one I can think of is my wel loved example that I usually trot out whenever I get the remotest oppourtunity and I'll do so again.

Imperium Galactica 2 uses a similar system where when you reserach a new technology.

Say you've just researched Beam Lasers and you want to Upgrade what you've designated as your Quaser Class Heavy Cruiser's with this. They currently have Pulse Lasers now you would go into the design menu and go into the Design of the Quaser class and you could modify it. Say you also had researched a Class 4 Hyperdrive it would be cheaper to apply these 2 upgrades togeteher then seperatly. So you would change the design and then when you go to done you are given two choices Retrofit all units now and the cosr $XXXXXXX or modify the design and refit later.

I'm beginning to think though that having a special unit going around could be best. Sort of like a quasi freighter with a few mechanics and parts it would also at the same time repair all mechanical units to full health and heal organic units.

Having units shut down could be interesting since you never have an army made up entirley of one million of the same unit that's asking for trouble so you would have to stagger your upgrades perhaps and research in stages.

Vostok I myself usually attempt to survive to Tech 4 with the bare minimum and then get the upgrades for me to be useful. Yet I don't turtle I just build a force that works well defensive but when I'm ready can go offensive.

Admiral Vostok
10-27-2004, 08:47 AM
Vostok I myself usually attempt to survive to Tech 4 with the bare minimum and then get the upgrades for me to be useful. Yet I don't turtle I just build a force that works well defensive but when I'm ready can go offensive.Indeed, I do as well since things become a lot cheaper for Naboo in TL4. But you and I both know it is not an ideal way to play: too many times one of us has been rushed and horrendously crippled. If everyone were to do it because there was a definite economic benefit, then games would not be nearly as interesting.

The example you provided from Imperium Galactica 2... is that to do with the number of units you've already got, or just getting cheaper upgrades by researching them together rather than separate? Again I stress that scaling the cost of upgrades depending on affected units is rarely done despite it being the most realistic way of costing things, so I think that constitutes a message not to be ignored.

I think I like the special unit running around upgrading things the least of all out of all the ideas, as it just doesn't fit Star Wars. Returning to base is the most realistic, yet I'm not sure of the gameplay.

I guess again it all comes down to how many techs there are in the game. If there are lots of techs like SWGB, returning to base would be rediculously annoying: you'd have to do it all the time. If there were only a half dozen techs like in Generals then it would work fine. Personally I love games where there is heaps of research to be done, and as such I'm not too keen on the returning to base idea.

DK_Viceroy
10-27-2004, 10:48 AM
It woudl depend what upgrade it was to how realistic it would be perhaps some upgrades could be automatic some would require for them to return to base and sone would send out a unit.

Like upgrading Clone trooper rifles.

It would send out a LAAT/c and drop a crate of new rifles the clone troopers would go get the new ones put the old ones in there the LAAT/c picks the crate up flies away and you recoup a percentage of the cost because they recycle the weapons.

Pepole should try and get Imperium Galactica 2 it is a master piece. The Campaigns are excellent as well they have loads of random events you could play the same campaign a hundred times over and it would never be exactly the same.

Perhaps that idea has made some desiogners scared and they're not willing to try it out or take a risk.

Admiral Vostok
10-27-2004, 07:58 PM
It doesn't really come down to "taking risks". Game makers will often - though admittedly not all the time - test out ideas with alpha testers and to a lesser extent beta testers, and if the idea isn't well recieved it is rejected. So in most cases it isn't that designers are too scared to try something, it's that they tried it and it failed.

Personally I can see that being the case here as I know I'd much rather have the upgrades performed instantaneously than have Clone Troopers return their rifles to a crate. Remember that Gameplay > Realism.

Darth Windu
10-28-2004, 08:12 AM
Technologies should their cost relate to how many units they are upgrading. So say if you had none of that unit yet the cost wouldn't be as great as say if you had a hundred of that unit.
This has actually already been done in Rise of Nations. I quite like the system because you cant take the easy way of doing things like building a huge, cheap force and then upgrading.

I also figure that if you are going to use this system, since the research cost gets higher with each unit it is like giving each trooper a new rifle, so it should be automatic. Otherwise, i would prefer to see the upgrade only applied to newly built units, and not to the older ones.

Admiral Vostok
10-28-2004, 08:28 AM
This has actually already been done in Rise of Nations.It was? :confused:

I don't recall it being that way. I thought it cost the same no matter how many units you had. Then again I didn't play it for all that long since it sucked so much...

DK_Viceroy
10-28-2004, 08:43 AM
I think though that My idea about for troopers that you could recoup some of the cost because the rifles would be recycled It hgasn't really been tried before but that's no reason not to try it now.

Admiral Vostok
10-28-2004, 02:00 PM
Well as I said before I think something like that gets too much i the way of gameplay, so I don't like it. I think it's quite likely it has been tried before and been rejected because it doesn't work well. In fact now I think about it I think something like that was conceived for Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War but it interrupted the flow of battle too much so now everything just gets instantaneously upgraded.

DK_Viceroy
10-28-2004, 02:11 PM
Vostok you neglect my example the game you yourself Eagerly Await and the One I think should be scrapped in favour of them puling their fingers out and getting to work on the new C & C project which is confirmed to be of either Tiberian or Red Alert see.

I of course speak of yet another shameless plug By EA for yet more money Battle For Middle Earth.

If you check unit lists you will find Porters for every side delivering upgrades to units.

Some People would agree breaking the pace of batle would be a releif in some cases especially our forum gam,es where the Tension can rise increadibly quickly and an hour of making split seconf decisions wear's off honed combat edges.

lukeiamyourdad
10-28-2004, 07:17 PM
Good tension is good. That's what is supposed to happen. If you cut down the pace, the game won't be so fun in the long run. Unless you're not looking for excitement...

I like the way Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War has done it. Sure it looks a bit weird that units appear out of nowhere but it can make a skirmish last forever which is good.

Darth Windu
10-28-2004, 08:00 PM
Vostok - trust me, i've played RoN and the system does work that way. They also have a scaled cost for units so that it costs more to build a unit if you already have examples of that unit. Personally i dont like that bit, but scaled research costs are good.

Admiral Vostok
10-29-2004, 10:31 AM
Windu, I've also played RoN. It seems I must have blocked out a few things since the game as a whole was not memorable.

Viceroy, just because I'm looking forward to BfME doesn't mean I'll readily accept every gameplay choice they make. If porters work as you've described then that's certainly one thing I'm not happy with. Keep in mind though that BfME doesn't have a huge range of upgrades to choose from. If the official site is anything to go by, civs will only have half a dozen upgrades. With such a pitiful amount of upgrades to choose from, porters are feasible. However if the game were to have as many upgrades as SWGB, it would be a stupidly rediculous idea to use porters.

DK_Viceroy
10-29-2004, 11:22 AM
Which was WHY I suggested a cominaytion of all the ideasfor some things like Sensor upgrades- Range upgrades and sight and such would be automatic Speed upgrades as well.

Some thing likes Trooper rifles would be dropped off by something and then picked up again giving you some money back.

Then Major upgrades would have them return to the base and get upgrades there.

Admiral Vostok
10-29-2004, 02:01 PM
It would be too complicated to have different techs require different procedures, particularly if there are more than ten technologies.

lukeiamyourdad
10-29-2004, 02:20 PM
Those ideas don't fit a fast/med pace RTS.

FroZticles
11-02-2004, 09:01 PM
If we get enough people on these forums get B4ME we could have a forum game there too.

swphreak
11-02-2004, 10:31 PM
I know I'm getting BFME when it comes out... that is if I have money for it...

Admiral Vostok
11-03-2004, 06:26 AM
I'm getting it soon after my return to Australia in January.

DK_Viceroy
11-03-2004, 08:23 AM
If I can spare the money From my Nintendo DS fund I might buy it and if it's crap i'll keep iot for Blitzkrieg 3. But chances are It'll be pretty good I like the sound of Isengaurd it sounds similar to the Confederacy.

Admiral Vostok
11-03-2004, 09:25 AM
Well if you liked Generals I think you'll really like BfME.

One of the concepts in BfME I love that I thought I'd mention is the idea of building "veterancy". Basically your buildings and structures gain veterancy similar to how units gain veterancy - only it will not be due to number of kills obviously, I'm not really sure how buildings get veterancy...

Anyway what it means is that since there are advanced units you can only build from veteran buildings, you'll be more willing to protect them from enemy attacks, whereas before most people would say "oh, I'll just build another one". So that's one idea I particularly like.

DK_Viceroy
11-03-2004, 11:14 AM
I do know how it works however it's quite Obvious It'll equate to the cost of how may troops you've built.

That idea could be good but in BFME terms it might not be the best.

FroZticles
11-03-2004, 08:18 PM
I like it, you have to think and plan out your buildings you place at the start and what armies you want to use. It stops people from just shooting out counters and adapting to your enemies army. After watching a few videos I noticed and bunch of units shoot out of the building at once at there on a timer or just some very fast building. Any word?

DK_Viceroy
11-23-2004, 02:01 AM
Were they bby any chance Orcs for Mordor since Mordor gets those for free.

Anyway let's change the direction of discussion and let's think about how many Techs if any Petroglpyh will put in SWGB 2 if indeed that's it's name.