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View Full Version : OT DVD ghost scene


Zerosaber
10-25-2004, 05:06 PM
Are you guys satisfied that they replaced Shaw with Hayden in the last gohst scene in ROTJ? I sure am not.

Shok_Tinoktin
10-25-2004, 06:09 PM
For now, I like the mature Anakin as he was (or could have been) at the end of his life. However, after ROTS that may change (its supposed to anyway).

El Sitherino
10-25-2004, 06:34 PM
oh god, not again. ;_; this will get ugly as all hell.

ET Warrior
10-25-2004, 08:10 PM
I'm with Sith, bad things happen in these debates. Suffice to say, Hayden smells funni :D

El Sitherino
10-25-2004, 08:44 PM
but he looks delicious ;_;

Rogue15
10-25-2004, 09:10 PM
yeah it's better that hayden's in.

ET Warrior
10-25-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Rogue15
yeah it's better that hayden's in.

Must......resist....urge.....to.........reply....

*blood vessels in brain explode*

Kain
10-25-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Must......resist....urge.....to.........reply....

*blood vessels in brain explode*

I'm with you...except the anurism part. I'll just take my leave.

Lynk Former
10-25-2004, 11:22 PM
What's so wrong with Hayden jeez.

Jan Gaarni
10-26-2004, 01:18 AM
He's not Sebastian Shaw. :)

There better be a damn good explaination in Ep. III to make me like that change. :D

Lynk Former
10-26-2004, 01:26 AM
XD And what if it doesn't? You're all gonna whine till your throats are hurt and complain on the internet till your fingers bleed and your keyboard no longer works because of all the blood? :p

Shok_Tinoktin
10-26-2004, 01:28 AM
Yeah, most likely. Propably gonna happen too, IMO. But I'll at least wait and see.

Sivy
10-26-2004, 02:14 AM
i'm not to keen on the hayden ghost. i just hope its explained well in ep III, and then everyone will go... 'oh right, that makes sense actually'

Shok_Tinoktin
10-26-2004, 02:42 AM
I hope so too, but I fear that it wil not be. And I doubt there will be an explanation that will satisfy everyone. I'm sure there will be plenty of people still complaining afterwards. I just hope that I am not one of them.

Lieutenant_kettch
10-26-2004, 08:06 AM
must...have...shaw...back...[gasp]

need...good...reason

otherwise....not...satisfy...anger...and...hate[gasp]

[force lightning]oww[/force lightning]

Prime
10-26-2004, 08:59 AM
Can we please stop beating this dead horse?

Lieutenant_kettch
10-26-2004, 10:18 AM
I don't think this qualifies as a dead horse

ET Warrior
10-27-2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
I don't think this qualifies as a dead horse

Yes. Yes it does.

Zerosaber
10-27-2004, 07:46 AM
The reason I prefer Shaw is because he looked much kinder as Anakin. When he smiles back at Luke it feels more loving. Like the "I'm proud of you son' type thing. When Hayden is in it it he's smile doesen't look kinde and he doesen't look much kinder either. When he smiles back Luke he look like I'm gonna get you Luke or I'm gonna haunt you for the rest of you life type thing. And those of you who have the DVD for OT of Star wars one of the documentries geroge Lucas says this why he puts Hayden in as Anakin instead of Shaw. He what he says 'The reason why I replaced Shaw is because when Anakin dies he doesen't know how to project himself as a ghost so Obi-wan and Yoda project an image of Anakin they last saw him as for Luke' for those of you who want an explanation. To me I don't think is good enough. You would think that Obi-wan and Yoda could see his 'present' form in the afterlife but I guess not.

Boba Rhett
10-27-2004, 07:51 AM
I prefer Shaw. However....

Lucas isn't done yet, my friends!

http://www.reichnation.com/uploads/haydenjedi%20copy.jpg



*runs away giggling with ps clasped to his chest*

Lieutenant_kettch
10-27-2004, 08:38 AM
you know, if they were gonna put hayden in as anakin, they should have put mcgregor in as obi1 and either frank oz or a wookiee in as yoda.... then it would have been cool

Shok_Tinoktin
10-27-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Zerosaber
And those of you who have the DVD for OT of Star wars one of the documentries geroge Lucas says this why he puts Hayden in as Anakin instead of Shaw. He what he says 'The reason why I replaced Shaw is because when Anakin dies he doesen't know how to project himself as a ghost so Obi-wan and Yoda project an image of Anakin they last saw him as for Luke' for those of you who want an explanation.

the other problem with that explaination, is why would Anakin not know how to project himself as a ghost, but Obi-Wan and Yoda do? And which documentary is this in?

Kurgan
10-27-2004, 11:36 AM
Return of the Jedi, during the Vader funeral pyre scene.


Well, on the bright side, the Shaw ghost shot IS on the 4th DVD (along with Fett's old voice), so fans can always look back at the proper moment if they wish. Somebody just needs to cut together a "Star Wars Trilogy: Fanboy Edition" from the various clips available of the old scenes.

Not all the old scenes are in the various trailors and documentaries, etc. but many are. I noticed also that on the prequel discs you get old scenes from the OT too (like much of the old Vader/Obi-Wan duel on the TPM disc).

I won't get into another argument about the changes to the films, but suffice to say, it would have been nice to do an easy side-by-side comparison on the same set.

Zerosaber
10-27-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
the other problem with that explaination, is why would Anakin not know how to project himself as a ghost, but Obi-Wan and Yoda do? And which documentary is this in?

The answer to the first one is I don't know and there better be a good explanation in Episode 3 but I fear that it will not be explained cause I think it's going to alter Ep 4 and 5. Ep 1 and 2 had a good story but the way Lucas directed it I thought was really lousy and that's why I think most people don't like Ep 1 and 2 as much as the OT. And the answer to the second question is I forgot but try looking at the ROTJ documentary.

Shok_Tinoktin
10-27-2004, 06:27 PM
Is it in a documentary, or the audio commentary?

Kurgan
10-30-2004, 05:46 AM
ROTJ Audio Commentary, George Lucas Speaking, during the Vader funeral pyre scene.

Unfortunately, Lucas's statements are vague enough that they could be interpreted a few different ways.

He just says that Anakin found out how to retain his identity, like Yoda and Obi-Wan knew how, so he appeared how he was when he died, as Anakin Skywalker.

Well, wasn't he "Anakin Skywalker" when he killed the Emperor, and said his goodbyes and made peace with Luke and "your sister"?

Some say, well this is logical, because he was still on the "Good Side" when his body was damaged before he needed the suit (since the last time we'll see him without a mask as a member of the Jedi is in Episode III).

However, isn't the fall to the Dark Side the issue, not his injuries? After all, he committed a heinous act of mass murder against the Sandpeople in AOTC. Plus at the end of the movie he got his arm chopped off by Dooku and needed a cybernetic replacement.

Yet, when he's shown as a ghost, he has the same makeup and haircut like we've seen in the publicity shots for Episode III (sorry, but even I got spoiled for that one). Shoulder length long hair (rather than that goofy Padawan braid and short hair), somber expression, etc.

He's 20 something Anakin instead of 40 something Anakin he should be.

In the AOTC commentary in the scene right after the Tusken massacre, we hear Qui Gon's voice and Lucas on the Audio commentary in that scene (with Mace and Yoda) he mentions the "retaining your identity after death" thing again, but why doesn't he mention Qui Gon in the OT commentary? He gives the impression that only Obi-Wan and Yoda knew how to do it and that's how Anakin learned. But if Qui Gon did it first....?

I listened to the TPM commentary straight through (never had done that before) and in it Lucas says that TPM takes place some 30 years before A New Hope, so that's where that data comes from).

Of course Lucas could always change his mind about the stuff he says on the commentary, just that he'll have no more excuses that it was some interviewer misquoting him or fans not remembering. ; )

Zerosaber
10-30-2004, 11:19 AM
What he said.

Kain
10-30-2004, 12:23 PM
Wow...I hate George Lucas.

Zerosaber
10-30-2004, 03:44 PM
Don't we all? :D

Lynk Former
10-30-2004, 06:55 PM
XD Dramaqueens

El Sitherino
10-30-2004, 10:06 PM
you people expect too much out of a man, don't like it, fine don't watch. Just get over it and stop hassling. Noone is forcing you to watch the DVD's.

Zerosaber
10-31-2004, 05:33 AM
Insanesith we're not mad at Lucas we just wish that Shaw was back.

El Sitherino
11-01-2004, 12:13 AM
Then watch your freaking VHS or edit the DVD yourself. -_-

Lynk Former
11-01-2004, 01:09 AM
I would like to place this quote...

Originally posted by Zerosaber
Insanesith we're not mad at Lucas we just wish that Shaw was back.

above this quote...

Originally posted by Kain
Wow...I hate George Lucas.

^^

Kain
11-01-2004, 07:29 AM
Somebody doesn't read the entire threeeeeeeead...:p

Kurgan
11-01-2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
you people expect too much out of a man, don't like it, fine don't watch. Just get over it and stop hassling. Noone is forcing you to watch the DVD's.


The idea is if we hassle enough, maybe he'll start to give the fans what they're asking for.

After all, he changed his mind and released TPM & AOTC on DVD and now the OT when before he said no Star Wars DVD's until Episode III is finished).

Originally the "Special Edition of the Special Editions" of the Star Wars films were dismissed by LucasFilm as simply rumors, but turned out to be reality. This in response to fan criticism of some of the shoddiness of the Special Edition changes and stuff that was missed? You decide.

Plus, it's NOT too much to expect from the man to release the original movies that made him so rich, famous and powerful. He has the resources to do it, and it would only make him richer and better appreciated still.

And it's all well and good to say "don't watch it." But if we want the original films on DVD, our only choice is a bootleg, currently. He's not giving the fans what they want. VHS just doesn't cut it quality-wise and degrades with each viewing.

When Lowry Digital restored the trilogy, they made a "digital master" of the Original Films that is cleaned up and ready for any future transfers (including High Def formats). So the excuse that the originals "don't exist anymore" or that it would take "millions of dollars" (more) to release the originals is a bit hard to swallow.

Sure it would cost money to encode and press the discs, print the boxes and ship them to stores. But it's not like he has to restore the films AGAIN to get the originals out, since they already did the work with the restoration they did for the 2004 edition set. It's already done!

As to editing the DVD's, yes, that's now possible and I hope people start taking advantage of that. Of course these would just be fan edits that would be illegal (I'm assuming) to distribute to the public, but that's the best we can do until Lucas comes to his senses again.

No offense intended of course, just respectfully saying why I disagree. ; )

Lieutenant_kettch
11-01-2004, 08:48 AM
wow, i hate it too when people don't read the entire thread... it's a good thing no one here hates GL...

shaw...need shaw... kill hayden... shaw=ewok song

Kurgan
11-01-2004, 08:53 AM
People shouldn't feel so bad, I do it too sometimes.

At the minimum, if a thread is super duper long and I don't have time to read the whole thing, I'll just read the initial post and reply to that one.

There's nothing really wrong with that per se, especially if it's a multi-pager that goes off topic or hasn't had a meaningful contribution in awhile. Just saying. ; )

Lieutenant_kettch
11-01-2004, 08:54 AM
yeah, i hate reading the massive threads too, so i read the first couple pages, and the last couple, to get the gist of it

El Sitherino
11-01-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
No offense intended of course, just respectfully saying why I disagree. ; ) I get what you're saying, but I'm tired of hearing all the negativity, and hatred. How do you even know EVERY DECISION was made by lucas? the guy hires marketers and fund analysts for a reason. My point is not everything is lucas' fault, and it seems kind of stupid to say you hate him, and then ask from him.

(you in the general sense, not directional)

Zerosaber
11-03-2004, 01:34 PM
I don't really hate George Lucas it just bugs me alot that Shaw isn't back that's all.

Pho3nix
11-06-2004, 03:25 PM
Definately Sebastian Shaw....Hayden just seems unnatural in that scene. BUT with Anakins both hands and legs chopped off, he couldn't come "back to life" as a normal Jedi looking like Sebastian Shaw. So he comes back in the form that he was before he fell into the Lava pit on Mustafar.

Palpatine
11-06-2004, 05:49 PM
Sebastian Shaw, besides I belive Anakin never truly turned to the dark side of the force. Like luke said " I still feel good in him "
And when he died he was then back to normal and a good guy, old Anakin, not young so he should have been an old Anakin as a ghost, not young.

Hekx
11-08-2004, 12:15 AM
Collectors Edition without digital mastered changes and recent DVD set changes, here we come. :)

Personally, I prefer Shaw. What I would have liked to happen is maybe a flash of Hayden being shown or something similar. I'm thankful I have the remastered versions on VHS. :)

Zerosaber
11-08-2004, 05:24 PM
Don't we all?

idle
12-15-2004, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Hekx
What I would have liked to happen is maybe a flash of Hayden being shown or something similar.

If Lucas insisted on editing Hayden in some way I agree that's the way it should have been done.

Otherwise, I voted for Shaw.

Leper Messiah
12-15-2004, 05:07 AM
i believe Shaw makes more sense storyline wise - after overcoming the dark side and earning his redemption why would Anakin then revert to the young man vulnerable to the dark side that he was, rather than the redeemed man he had become

edit: in the end i think this particular change has a little bit of "because we can" about it

Prime
12-15-2004, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Leper Messiah
i believe Shaw makes more sense storyline wise - after overcoming the dark side and earning his redemption why would Anakin then revert to the young man vulnerable to the dark side that he was, rather than the redeemed man he had become. Perhaps because the Shaw version is "more machine now than man" just not quite so twisted and evil.

El Sitherino
12-15-2004, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Prime
Perhaps because the Shaw version is "more machine now than man" just not quite so twisted and evil. precisely. Sure he was redeemed, but he was still more machine than man, if I were anakin I would cling to my more human side too. I think lucas made shaw the ghost originally only because he needed to, to make it all seem complete, why wouldn't he use a younger person as anakins ghost if he was going to do that anyway? Because he didn't want it to seem out of place would be my guess, you know if you have someone playing young anakin in the 80's then when making the prequels it's someone totally different, it kinda.... seems weird. I personally don't care who's the ghost, it changes nothing of the story itself.

Jan Gaarni
12-15-2004, 07:28 AM
I'm sorry, neither of those explaination is good enough for me.
They're rather weak.

More machine than man. Hmph.

Human side is not dictated by how you look. It's how you think and act.

El Sitherino
12-15-2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Human side is not dictated by how you look. It's how you think and act. ... so what if we made a robot that did everything exactly like a human, think, act, feel. But still looked like a robot, is it human?

Leper Messiah
12-15-2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni


More machine than man. Hmph.


socrates himself does tremble at that mighty logic, as Spider AL might say :p

well Shaw as a ghost wasnt machine, since its all symbolic it would seem to indicate he was finally free of being Vader, so i still say it makes no sense for him to present himself as the young man who fell to the dark side rather than the redeemed man

Lynk Former
12-15-2004, 08:50 AM
It makes it Artoo-Detoo... he's more human than human *nods*

Zerosaber
12-15-2004, 10:28 AM
Speaking of machine/ man it doesen't really make any sense because before Anakin turns to Darth Vader he's part machine already he lost his arm?

rut-wa jodar
12-24-2004, 07:58 AM
It`s an insult to the memory of Sebastian Shaw, GL should be ashamed of himself :mad:

Zerosaber
12-27-2004, 05:32 AM
He probably knows alll this and I bet you that he'll put Shaw back in the Star Wars Saga DVD set that will come with all 6 movies. I hate the fact now that once I hit the ghost scene on DVD that I have to switch to the VHS one.

El Sitherino
12-27-2004, 08:55 AM
or you all can stop being such whiny babies and make your own dvd set. :)

Mike Windu
12-27-2004, 09:26 AM
Honestly, it's not THAT bad that you have to switch from DVD to VHS to see Sebastian Shaw. Good lord.

Although I'd prefer Shaw, it's not life threatening enough to switch between dvd and vhs just to see Shaw as a ghost.


On another note, this is why I like LotR: I know Peter Jackson won't change The Two Towers so that the Uruks shoot first at Helm's Deep instead of the old guy :p

pnkparasite
01-04-2005, 01:18 PM
The only thing that matters to me is that there is going to be a third movie. I actually have never seen Sebastian(sp?) Shaw so it doesn't matter to me who plays the role. Must be cool to be in a star wars movie:vadar:

Nexus Traan
02-01-2005, 05:05 PM
Well, I for one like it. True, the OT is something you fiddle with with very carefully, but it looks very cool to see that version of Anakin in ROTJ. IMO of course.

rut-wa jodar
02-02-2005, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
or you all can stop being such whiny babies and make your own dvd set. :)



I`m sure your view would change if GL decided to replace the Sir Alec ghost scenes with Ewan.

Lynk Former
02-03-2005, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by rut-wa jodar
I`m sure your view would change if GL decided to replace the Sir Alec ghost scenes with Ewan.
I'm not gonna cry about it that's for sure XD

Astrotoy7
02-04-2005, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
...but Obi-Wan and Yoda do? And which documentary is this in?

Lucas also refers to this issue briefly during the commentary for ESB, somehere on Dagobah(I cant rememeber exactly)

I am well used to the Hayden Ghost now. It adds to the overall continuity of the 6 films as well....

mtfbwya

shukrallah
02-20-2005, 05:37 PM
Whoa...

*embarrasing moment*

Coming from someone who didn't care about the DVDs... what else did they change? I planned to buy them one day because I thought they only added the deleted scenes (not to mention quality).

coupes.
02-20-2005, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Whoa...

*embarrasing moment*

Coming from someone who didn't care about the DVDs... what else did they change? I planned to buy them one day because I thought they only added the deleted scenes (not to mention quality). Check this thread (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136494) for an extensive list of changes made to the DVD box set. It's a sticky at the top of the forum.

also check these articles out, they are very complete :
http://www.dvdanswers.com/index.php?r=0&s=8&n=1&k=star+wars&c=28
http://www.dvdanswers.com/index.php?r=0&s=8&n=1&k=star+wars&c=29
http://www.dvdanswers.com/index.php?r=0&s=8&n=1&k=star+wars&c=7867673

El Sitherino
02-21-2005, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by rut-wa jodar
I`m sure your view would change if GL decided to replace the Sir Alec ghost scenes with Ewan. If he did that I'd just make my own dvd set instead of whining, I'd probably watch both versions though, mine and the one where they replaced Alec.

Astrotoy7
03-07-2005, 03:18 AM
hmmm...this debate still raging ?? :p I think everyone who has listened to GLs commentaries will know that we just have to wait til May to hear the full story, and then everyone can come back here and whine about how GL is teh suXXrZ for raping your childhood memories :(

Shaw is dead. He dont care no more. Its part of an actors life to know some of their performance can be cut or altered. It happens in film *all the damn time* And Shaw is still in there in the most important bit(the unmasking).... so I dont see the fuss :)



mtfbwya

idle
03-07-2005, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
And Shaw is still in there in the most important bit(the unmasking).... so I dont see the fuss :)



mtfbwya

That is of course, until all the actors in the prequels have aged 50 odd years and the OT is remade with Ewan and Hayden. ;)

*opens up a can of worms*

Pho3nix
09-08-2005, 05:28 PM
I don't know why, but i'm starting to like Hayden Christensen as Anakin-ghost.
I guess it kinda fits cause' that's what he looked like before he turned to the darkside. :|

Kurgan
09-10-2005, 12:34 PM
So when exactly did he turn to the Dark Side? That's my question...

Leviathan
09-10-2005, 12:50 PM
I feel that it is a tricky question... :xp:

Pho3nix
09-10-2005, 01:07 PM
My guess is when he kneeled before Palpatine...

El Sitherino
09-10-2005, 06:59 PM
My guess is when he kneeled before Palpatine...Before that.
He made his decision when he was in the Tower looking across to Padme.

Prime
09-12-2005, 11:09 AM
Most likely it was in Ep 3 at some point. Thus the Force ghost is accurate in that it appears to be the Ep 3 Anakin...

90SK
09-12-2005, 06:46 PM
Yeah, I guess it was just sort of a gradual thing, starting at the tower and ending at the temple. Or after Mustafar, either way. In any case, any trace of doubt faded after Mustafar, sealing in all the hate.

TheExileReturns
09-14-2005, 11:31 AM
I just think it makes more sense to have the older anakin as he was when Luke saw him. Besides Hayden was a lousy actor. do we really need him in ROTJ?

MachineCult
10-03-2005, 06:26 PM
I think the guy can SMILE convincingly TheExileReturns.
It makes sense having Hayden, they have Yoda as he died, Obi-wan as he died and Anakin as he "Died", as Obi-wan said he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker.
The older man is Darth Vaders body, not Anakins.

idle
10-03-2005, 06:33 PM
I think the guy can SMILE convincingly TheExileReturns.
It makes sense having Hayden, they have Yoda as he died, Obi-wan as he died and Anakin as he "Died", as Obi-wan said he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker.
The older man is Darth Vaders body, not Anakins.

But "Darth Vaders body" returned to the light side right before he died, thus negating that theory. It's a bad, bad change to make and the arguments against definetly carry more weight than for, but unforgivable? Not really.

90SK
10-03-2005, 06:35 PM
Eh, it really can work either way. Mostly just relies on what you personally believe.

Brottor
10-03-2005, 06:36 PM
I think that Vadar returned to Anakin before he died and therefore should be Shaw. However I do agree that perhaps you revert to a younger form and would have no problem with HC if Ewan was plugged in as well.

90SK
10-03-2005, 07:37 PM
^^^
Good point (even though fans would freak out if Ewan was put in). BTW, Welcome to the forums!:waive1:

Kurgan
10-04-2005, 04:15 PM
As for having our cake and eating it too, one person (I can't remember where) suggested a compromise.

Show the three Force Ghosts (or Jedi Spirits, whatever you want to call 'em) as they are in ROTJ for the normal duration, and then have them slowly fade into "younger" versions of themselves. Shaw becomes Christiansen, Guiness becomes McGregor and finally ol' Yoda puppet becomes CG Yoda in his prime like we've never seen before... at a spry 100 years of age, or something. ;)

This could show the characters as they were when they REALLY died, all as old men, and their "rejuvination" in the Force to show that age no longer has any meaning for them. Luke smiles, rest of movie continues as before.

El Sitherino
10-04-2005, 04:45 PM
That'd be pretty sweet...

Jan Gaarni
10-04-2005, 05:53 PM
I like that idea, that would have been pretty sweet indeed.

idle
10-04-2005, 05:58 PM
Hurrufm! Agreed, great idea.

I doubt the topic about it would get up to 9 pages though. :P

90SK
10-04-2005, 06:28 PM
Which would you rather have? ;P

idle
10-04-2005, 06:57 PM
These topics are saving LucasForums!1!!one!

Shaw or LucasForums? :p

Lucas's plan all along, to keep messageboards across the world alive with chat. ;)

Brottor
10-04-2005, 07:22 PM
Thanks for the welcome. Kurgan that is a great idea. Perhaps we can talk to Lucas and he can make the change when he rereleases them for the 10th time.

Kurgan
10-04-2005, 10:00 PM
Or the 11th....

Actually I think some enterprising fan could do it right now as a "test concept" animation or something. Just use a shot or two of Yoda and Ewan from ROTS. Maybe a better shot of Anakin not doing his "stalker stare"... ;)

Pass it around the 'net and perhaps Lucas will get the message!

Jan Gaarni
10-05-2005, 04:07 AM
Yeah, stalker stare. :D

The "When I figure out how to get into your world again, I'm gonna kill you" look. :p :D ;)

Jeff
10-05-2005, 09:04 PM
@ Kurgan that (ghosts idea) would be sweet. And it would make (most) everybody happy.

Kurgan
10-05-2005, 11:36 PM
Somebody should do a little "proof of concept" of this seriously...

Anybody got some Adobe Premier skills here? ;)

TheExileReturns
10-07-2005, 10:27 PM
Whether or not Anakin called himself "Darth Vader" or not at that point is irrelevant. He died as an old man and his soul, which was Anakin Skywalker- became one with the force then. He didn't die in Episode III. To say he died then would be figuratively speaking. George Lucas is way too happy re-editing his old films and re-inventing the wheel each time. Just leave the Shaw ghost in for cryin' out loud...

CapNColostomy
10-11-2005, 02:39 AM
I did something I never thought in a million years I'd ever do, and I voted Hayden. The reason is this: I have small kids. 4 of them, all 6 or under. My boy's 4. So he gets the movies to an extent, but until I got the OT on dvd, I don't think he fully understood that it was Anakin at the end of Jedi until he saw Hayden. I've watched Jedi with him several times, and until we saw it together on dvd, he'd never commented on that scene. As it is, he said "Look Dad! Anakin's a ghost!" I never really got the message that these movies (PT, to be specific) aren't just made for me, but also for the kids of today until that happened.

Jan Gaarni
10-11-2005, 02:54 AM
Eh, not good enough reason.

If he's 4 he's not old enough to watch it anyway. :D

CapNColostomy
10-11-2005, 02:57 AM
I was watching Star Wars when I was 4...

El Sitherino
10-11-2005, 12:30 PM
Eh, not good enough reason.

Maybe not for you, but for CapN it seems it was good enough. We aren't here to convince you.

If he's 4 he's not old enough to watch it anyway. :D
Care to give us the retarded logic that led you to this conclusion?
Most people that saw Star Wars were 4-5. Star Wars has always been for little kids, what was marvelous about it was it entertained people of all generations.

idle
10-11-2005, 01:44 PM
I don't agree with the "4 year olds understand it better" logic because, well, we just saw Shaw 2 minutes ago and 4 year olds could understand it back in the 80's! Unless the argument for the change is '4 year olds have become stupider' then I totally disagree with that as a good enough reason for the change.

Jan Gaarni
10-11-2005, 01:49 PM
Errr, Sith, you really need to read posts better.

You might notice the :D at the end of the sentence?

I rest my case. ;)

(see, Kurgan, this is more than enough to win an "argument" :D no need to drag it out ;) )

EDIT: Hmm, in case that will also be missunderstood, yes I'm kidding. ;)

CapNColostomy
10-11-2005, 02:32 PM
I don't agree with the "4 year olds understand it better" logic because, well, we just saw Shaw 2 minutes ago and 4 year olds could understand it back in the 80's! Unless the argument for the change is '4 year olds have become stupider' then I totally disagree with that as a good enough reason for the change.

That's not the argument at all. I'm just saying he knows Anakin as Hayden. He's not stupid, he just likes PT alot, and identifies the character of Anakin as Hayden easier than Shaw, because Shaw was Anakin for five ****ing minutes, tops, and Hayden got a little more than four hours as Anakin. There. I spelled it out for you. I don't ask that you agree with the logic, just that you exercise basic reading and comprehension skills, and maybe realize that we're talking about a ****ing four year old.

idle
10-12-2005, 06:10 AM
Calm down for christ's sake.

Great Scott!
10-12-2005, 05:37 PM
Whoa, fanboys ahoy. First of all, I couldn't really decide whether I liked Shaw or Hayden better (I voted Shaw barely only due to the fact I first saw the movie with him in it sense I only have the special edition VHS), but now I'm starting to think Hayden, because as soon as I read that guy's post, it made me remember that when I saw Return of the Jedi (don't laugh- but it was not until last April, and I was, and still am, exactly 10 years older than that kid), I actually asked my brother who he was. He just doesn't look similar enough to Hayden, at least without all the burn marks, that I could actually tell. Also keep in mind this was after seeing all the movies (other than III, as it was not out at the time) in order from I to VI. So I think having Hayden play him really helps, and gives it a better link to the prequel trilogy.

Kurgan
10-13-2005, 12:40 AM
Hmm, when I was 6 years old seeing ROTJ I had no problem making the connection that the old guy who was the ghost at the end was Luke's father,Anakin Skywalker. It was obviously the same guy who I'd just seen moments earlier under the mask that Luke took off, only without the scars and his hair was back (surely in "jedi heaven" they fix you up, right? but they don't turn you into a kid again!). No problem...

I even sent away for the bonus action figure of him!

The "oh the kids won't get it" assumes they watched Episodes II and III first, THEN Return of the Jedi. But even then it also assumes they don't understand the concept of aging...

"But why was he old? He should have been young! Even though his kids are all grown up, people don't get old!!!" etc.

Give the kids a little credit. ;) Sure, not every kid understands everything, but this seems like a poor excuse to edit the film. I think he probably was just like:

"well, since I'm tinkering with the movies anyway since I'm George Lucas, what the hell... and now that people are going to associate Hayden with Anakin forever I will give into his googely eyed demands to let him make a "cameo" in Jedi"

Not "Oh no! My definitive vision has been compromised because some little tykes in 2004 DO NOT UNDERSTAND! I must immediately pay somebody to paste in Hayden's face. Ah, thankfully I have a clip of him leering like a madman, perfect! Cut, paste, done!"

Anakin in that scene is thinking "Heh, heh, yeah my boy's a playah just like his old man! I know that's your sister, but she's hot, go for it son!"

Luke, who was formerly smiling at the thought of his father's redemption is momentarily creeped out for a second. He almost wets his Jedi uniform when Leia touches him to go back to the fire. Luke lets himself be taken away from the scary man... Geez dad was a perv!

Anyway, Lucas's kids are old enough to be able to figure that stuff out too. Did a test audience of little brats go "Where's Jar Jar mommy??" leading him to insert the Naboo "wesa free!" clip? Who knows... but I don't see it as a plot point necessity.

Sure you could say after ROTS we basically had no choice but to see that less time had passed between trilogies than we original thought back in the day. But it's really a bigger problem than just Anakin, if we admit that. All the surviving characters look older than they "should be" and events seem like they took place a longer time ago than they did (how could Motti have forgotten the Jedi already? etc). If we can overlook those "inconsistencies" then we can overlook Anakin. But at least if he was going to try to patch the age shift problem, he should have made Anakin look like he ought to have looked under the armor at that time... as a man in his 40's, not a spry 21 year old.

Personally I think all the arguments for the change are BS anyway, as this wasn't really an inconsistency before.

The strongest they can really come up with is "Lucas can do whatever he wants, so I can live with it, since I have no control over it, so stop whining, it's only a few seconds of the entire movie."

Calling somebody a nerd for complaining about this is just as silly, because only a "nerd" would feel the need to defend the change, anyway. Anybody else (non-fans) just wouldn't care one way or the other, IMHO.

CapNColostomy
10-13-2005, 12:47 AM
I never said he didn't know Shaw was supposed to be Anakin, or that it was a good excuse to alter the film. I'm saying he (my son) identifies the character of Anakin as being played by Hayden. That's all. Jeez.

El Sitherino
10-13-2005, 12:47 AM
Perhaps you should re-read CapN's post, Kurgan.

:Edit: Beaten by the CapN.

Kurgan
10-13-2005, 12:53 AM
Maybe he also identifies the character of Obi-Wan Kenobi as being played by Ewan McGregor. Maybe he identifies with Clive Revil as playing the Emperor...

Maybe he identifies with Yoda and Jabba being puppets or one of the different voices of Boba Fett... All he has is an opinion just like everyone else, wonderful, thanks for sharing then! ;)

El Sitherino
10-13-2005, 12:55 AM
Someone sounds like they want a debate... ;)

Kurgan
10-13-2005, 12:56 AM
Someone sounds like they want a debate... ;)

No Sith, you will find it is you who want to debate, about a great many things!

CapNColostomy
10-13-2005, 01:56 AM
All he has is an opinion just like everyone else, wonderful, thanks for sharing then! ;)

Well yeah. I thought that's what the poll was for. To see what the general opinion was, and maybe discuss it. Not to justify ones reasoning, or prove another persons opinion to be not a good enough reason for the change or whatever. If I assumed incorrectly, then accept my apologies, please.

Kurgan
10-13-2005, 02:10 AM
Don't worry. I've commented so much on the subject I don't even remember what I've said anymore and to whom or why. I've basically thrown out all my good ideas, the rest is rambling. Please ignore. ;)

And please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding or percieved insult.

Great Scott!
10-14-2005, 08:44 AM
Okay, sorry for the lateness of this reply, but first of all, Lucas has claimed that Anakin's original form was preserved by Yoda and Obi-Wan, and they were the ones who created the ghost. If Darth Vader learned that power, don't you think he would've at least mentioned it? He would probably think he was invulnerable and his reign would last forever! Also, about Jar Jar Binks, I don't know what the kiddies think, but Lucas says he died in the explosion of Alderaan. That gungan saying "wesa free" wasn't him.

Jan Gaarni
10-14-2005, 12:03 PM
Also, about Jar Jar Binks, I don't know what the kiddies think, but Lucas says he died in the explosion of Alderaan. That gungan saying "wesa free" wasn't him.
So there is a God after all. :D

Kurgan
10-14-2005, 06:18 PM
Okay, sorry for the lateness of this reply, but first of all, Lucas has claimed that Anakin's original form was preserved by Yoda and Obi-Wan, and they were the ones who created the ghost. If Darth Vader learned that power, don't you think he would've at least mentioned it? He would probably think he was invulnerable and his reign would last forever! Also, about Jar Jar Binks, I don't know what the kiddies think, but Lucas says he died in the explosion of Alderaan. That gungan saying "wesa free" wasn't him.


Where did you get all these startling relevations? I'd like to see the source.
;)

Jan Gaarni
10-15-2005, 04:23 AM
Ssshhh, Kurgan, don't question it. Jar Jar get's blown to hell! :D

Don't ruin the moment. :p

MachineCult
10-18-2005, 06:09 PM
Jar Jar would have been older than Obi-wan at the end of Return of the Jedi.
Did the gungan saying "weesa free" sound like an elderly person?

SarahSkywalker
03-14-2006, 06:17 AM
I voted for Hayden because seeing him at the end really helped me connect the PT with the OT and I think it's only fitting that Anakin should be shown before he turned to the dark side.

JMAS
03-23-2006, 01:30 PM
Definely Shaw

boinga1
03-23-2006, 01:44 PM
Shaw, because the change makes little sense and Hayden's face does not belong in the OT. I would accept (as a compromise) Kurgan's "fade-to-youth" idea.

Commander Obi-Wan
03-23-2006, 01:51 PM
I'd say Hayden. Maybe because I don't recall what Shaw looks like. If somebody could put up a pic of him......

MachineCult
03-23-2006, 05:13 PM
Hayden is the obvious choice.
I know when he died he wasn't Vader, he was Anakin and he didn't look young, but he didn't look old and fat either.

Justus
03-24-2006, 12:47 PM
Shaw, having Hayden there is just another one of the totally unnecessary additions that George put into the films. Seeing Yoda and Obi-Wan, next to a young Anakin just doesn't mesh well with the scene at all.

Alkonium
03-24-2006, 07:08 PM
As for having our cake and eating it too, one person (I can't remember where) suggested a compromise.

Show the three Force Ghosts (or Jedi Spirits, whatever you want to call 'em) as they are in ROTJ for the normal duration, and then have them slowly fade into "younger" versions of themselves. Shaw becomes Christiansen, Guiness becomes McGregor and finally ol' Yoda puppet becomes CG Yoda in his prime like we've never seen before... at a spry 100 years of age, or something. ;)

This could show the characters as they were when they REALLY died, all as old men, and their "rejuvination" in the Force to show that age no longer has any meaning for them. Luke smiles, rest of movie continues as before.
I like that idea. Ever though of suggesting it to George Lucas?