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rut-wa jodar
12-01-2004, 05:40 AM
1) vader had survived at the end of ROTJ
2) Anakin never turned to the darkside
3) Luke stayed on Tatooine
4) Obi-wan refused to train young anakin
5) Queen amidalas ship hadn`t landed on tatooine

things would have been very different.

Darth Alec
12-01-2004, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by rut-wa jodar
1) vader had survived at the end of ROTJ
2) Anakin never turned to the darkside
3) Luke stayed on Tatooine
4) Obi-wan refused to train young anakin
5) Queen amidalas ship hadn`t landed on tatooine

things would have been very different.

these thing hang together.
1. He new everything about the Empire, they woulden't stand a chance.
2. No Empire
3. No Rebelion after Yavin 4
4. No Evil Anikin but a p**** Obi
5. Ani woulden't have left Tatooine and the Republic would not be glad.

TK-8252
12-01-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Darth Alec
2. No Empire

Not true. Palpatine would have raised the Empire without Vader's help. Remember, Vader only helped hunt down the Jedi. Palpatine could have easily gotten someone else to do the dirty work.

Originally posted by Darth Alec
3. No Rebelion after Yavin 4

Wrong. Without Luke getting Han to fly to Yavin 4 after the homing beacon was attached to the Falcon on the Death Star, the Empire would have never found Yavin 4. The assault on the Death Star would have never happened since they didn't have the Death Star plans from R2-D2's memory banks, so the Rebels would have continued to operate from Yavin 4 and the Empire from the Death Star. Princess Leia would have been terminated on the Death Star without Luke and Han to rescue her.

Originally posted by Darth Alec
5. Ani woulden't have left Tatooine and the Republic would not be glad.

Why wouldn't they be glad? They weren't glad when Anakin helped Palpatine take over the Republic...

Shok_Tinoktin
12-01-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
Not true. Palpatine would have raised the Empire without Vader's help. Remember, Vader only helped hunt down the Jedi. Palpatine could have easily gotten someone else to do the dirty work.

I would agree for sure if Anakin was out of the picture entirely. However, if he was a Jedi and didn't turn, then it is more difficult to say.

Darth Alec
12-03-2004, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by TK-8252
Not true. Palpatine would have raised the Empire without Vader's help. Remember, Vader only helped hunt down the Jedi. Palpatine could have easily gotten someone else to do the dirty work.


Well it would be much harder to make the Empire since the Jedi wouldn't be dead. I mean who would be able to kill the Jedi since Jango was dead and Boba wasn't very old (I think). Although he could use an army, but that wouldn't be very economic. And yes Vader only "helped" Palpetine take the jedi, but after that he was teh Empire's best enforcer.

Shok_Tinoktin
12-03-2004, 09:42 AM
Dont underestimate Palpatine. He still has resources: Dooku, General Greivous, Aurra Sing, etc. He could easily turn more Jedi. And he can likely find a way to build his Empire so powerful without the Jedi realizing, that it would be too late to stop him.

Kurgan
12-04-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by rut-wa jodar
1) vader had survived at the end of ROTJ

Despite his "turning back to the Good Side" he may have had to stand trial for war crimes. Other than Luke, I don't think anyone else would readily forgive what he did during his time (over two decades) as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

They could probably have repaired his bionic implants (or at least enough to keep him alive, perhaps he would be deemed too dangerous to be allowed to be given back 100% of his suit's functions). On Luke's word of course, who knows. Even if he was "good" now, would he try to escape? Would Luke let him escape justice? Perhaps he would, and Vader (like some escaped Nazi officer) would be hiding out somewhere in the galaxy, pursued by Bounty Hunters. There might also be assasins who would want to kill him, again, for the crimes of the past. Without changing the appearance of his suit, it would be pretty hard for him to hide out, even with the Force.

Then again, maybe the Alliance would not believe in capital punishment, even for a character so villianous as Vader, and simply put him into prison (easy to do if you can manipulate his suit, though the Force presents a problem... maybe put him on an isolated world with only droids around him? or have Luke or Leia be his jailor? Would you trust a lesser force user to keep him behind bars?) or send him into exile?


2) Anakin never turned to the darkside


Palpatine would have found another apprentice. The Republic was still doomed. But perhaps it wouldn't have turned out quite so badly. Then again, if Anakin was truly the "only one" who could bring balance to the Force, perhaps Palpatine would run taken the whole galaxy down with him?


3) Luke stayed on Tatooine

The Empire may have tried to kill him again, and perhaps been successful, since he lacked Jedi training to defend himself from the Empire's finest (remember, these weren't some crappy Death Star guards, these were the troops with all that cool equipment who took out the Jawas and the homestead).


4) Obi-wan refused to train young anakin


He probably wouldn't have been trained. Palpatine still would have had his eye on him, and perhaps would have been able to train him in secret from an earlier age. Perhaps this "good side" would have been driven even more fully from him. Then again Palpatine probably used all the "bad stuff" that Anakin was mad about as leverage to get the boy to turn evil. But who knows...

Since Qui Gon was dead, what other Jedi wanted to train him? They wouldn't go against the Council, unless they changed their minds. They thought he might be the Chosen One, but they don't seem to know what to do with him.


5) Queen amidalas ship hadn`t landed on tatooine


They wouldn't have gotten very far, since their "hyperdrive was leaking." Without Faster Than Light Travel, space is very vast indeed. They'd be forced to land somewhere within the solar system once their hyperdrive finally gave out, or drift around until some pirates or patrol craft picked them up. They could send distress calls, so it's doubtful they'd just run out of supplies and die, unless their communications were also knocked out (but the holotransmissions from Sio-Bibble prove they were not).

Without landing on Tatooine, they wouldn't have ever known about Anakin, unless the Republic went there on some future mission and happened to find him by accident. Perhaps some Pod Racing fans might notice him, but his motivation for entering the Boonta Eve seems to have hinged on the Skywalkers wanting to help the "people in need," so Anakin may never have entered the contest and won, thus he would still have remained an unknown, even on his own planet.

If their hyperdrive gave out, their ship would also be much easier prey for re-capture by the Trade Federation or Darth Maul. The Jedi would put up a fight, but eventually they could capture or kill Amidala, put her up for ransom or force her to sign the treaty.

Another good point. Without Anakin: NO C3PO! Of course they could have gotten some other protocol droid to fill in if necessary. Heh. R2D2 was property of Queen Amidala.

The Rebellion was supposedly started by some dissident Senators, with the last straw being the construction of the Death Star terror weapon. The movement became more and more popular in the Senate and sympathy was spreading on other worlds around the time of ANH, etc.

The transition of the Republic into the Empire and the beginnings of the Rebellion would still have happened I think, but they just would have been different.

Anakin may still have married Padme (and as a non-Jedi there'd be a lot less reason not to), but then their meeting was due to the whole Tatooine incident, so he may never have even left the planet, period. He may have stayed a slave all his life for all we know, or gotten killed by gangsters or in some racing accident.

Maybe one day he discovered his own potential and became the new King of Tatooine!

TK-8252
12-04-2004, 01:33 PM
If Vader (now Anakin turned to the Light Side) wanted to survive, he could have, easily. After throwing Palpatine to his doom, Vader could have had Luke get on a communicator and order the Rebel fleet to call off the attack (the Emperor is dead, Vader is turned; the Death Star's destruction is not needed). Then he could have gotten immediate medical treatment and have his suit repaired, then later a new suit built.

Vader could have turned the Empire into the New Republic, lead by the Rebel Alliance. Actually, this way, I think it would have been better, because we wouldn't have the New Republic fighting with the Imperial Remnant for years later.

Should Vader have been punished for "war crimes?" Well, he's on the Light Side now, so how do you "punish" a Jedi? "Expell" him from the Jedi Order, like Obi-Wan threatened Anakin in AotC? Heh, I think Vader would have needed to be in the Jedi Order to moniter his Force-sensitive activies so he's not a renegade Jedi like Aurra Sing.

Kurgan
12-04-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
If Vader (now Anakin turned to the Light Side) wanted to survive, he could have, easily. After throwing Palpatine to his doom, Vader could have had Luke get on a communicator and order the Rebel fleet to call off the attack (the Emperor is dead, Vader is turned; the Death Star's destruction is not needed). Then he could have gotten immediate medical treatment and have his suit repaired, then later a new suit built.

That's cool, but what's Luke's position in the Rebel Alliance military? He's referred to as "Commander Skywalker" in ESB, but Admiral Ackbar is in charge of the capital ships, General Calrissian is in charge of the fighter wing. General Solo is in charge of the strike team on Endor. Where does that leave Luke? He was just a member of the commando team sent to Endor originally. From that point on he was a P.O.W. Sure, Lando and Han would have probably listened to him, but that's another big if. For all they knew it was a trap, and Luke had turned! Remember, they've seen good Jedi turn evil,but they've never seen someone "come back" from the Dark Side.

Sides, it may already have been too late. By the time Luke was dragging Vader's body out, they were already flying into the superstructure weren't they? Granted, there's the editing factor, so it's hard to guage exact times, but still. In the middle of a dogfight, what are they going to do? Unless the Imperial fleet knows that Palpy is dead, aren't they going to keep fighting if they think they can win? And are the Rebels honestly going to leave a super weapon like the Death Star II in the hands of the Empire? I doubt they had the manpower on hand to capture it, unless the Imperial fleet just turned tail and ran, and somehow the million(s?) troops onboard the station just all surrendered.



Vader could have turned the Empire into the New Republic, lead by the Rebel Alliance. Actually, this way, I think it would have been better, because we wouldn't have the New Republic fighting with the Imperial Remnant for years later.

Maybe, but how many Rebels would have wanted to swear allegience or follow a man they'd witnessed killing so many of their people? His name was synonymous with the massacre of the Jedi Knights, etc. Even the Imps obeyed him out of fear, since they didn't want to be choked to death for screwing up around him!

Could he have gotten the Remnant to surrender? Who knows. After all, those Moffs and such were supposed to be loyal to the Emperor first and foremost, not to Vader. Otherwise Vader could have staged a coup. Then again, that's not a bad idea. Vader did have some plans along those lines as of ESB at least. But then many of those warlords seemed powermad enough that they still would have broken away without the Emperor's monitoring and you'd still have to mop them up for years.

Still, I doubt very much that Vader would be trusted in a leadership position so quickly. I find the ending to "Return of the Jedi: Infinities" very implausible for example.


Should Vader have been punished for "war crimes?" Well, he's on the Light Side now, so how do you "punish" a Jedi? "Expell" him from the Jedi Order, like Obi-Wan threatened Anakin in AotC? Heh, I think Vader would have needed to be in the Jedi Order to moniter his Force-sensitive activies so he's not a renegade Jedi like Aurra Sing.

Depends on how forgiving they are.

I can think of a few possibilites:

1) Imprisonment. Without his suit (only basic life support functions), he's basically a parapalegic. Sure he's got the force, so staff the prison with strong willed folks and droids. Maximum security, if you can't get Luke or Leia to keep him there. And if he's "truly on the Goodside" he may not even try to escape, and simply serve out his sentence as penance for his past crimes.

And from AOTC we've seen a restraining system that can reasonably hold a Jedi (like Obi-Wan) captive.

2) Exile. He could change his suit's distinctive appearance and hide out on some backwater world. Assasination attempts would probably be frequent from people wanted to get back at him, which he could probably handle, but you never know. He's just one guy with the whole galaxy against him. Then again maybe there are some Remnant folks who would WANT him back on their side and might try to blackmail or kidnap him for their purposes.

3) Escape. See #2, but without a "witness protection program" under the auspices of the New Republic. Also he'd be a fugitive from justice, and so he'd have people looking for him, just like an escaped Nazi official after WWII.

4) Execution. Jedi are powerful, but mortal. Since he's already basically helpless, they can kill him a lot easier than someone like Luke or Obi-Wan in their prime. If he's turned to the Good Side, he might also accept that he deserves death for his crimes and go to the "chair" (or whatever they might use) willingly. Definately a bittersweet ending.

Sure, he's not on the Dark Side anymore, but he still was the one who did all the horrible things he did, and a simple "I'm sorry" won't satisfy everyone in the galaxy he's wronged.

Edit: And unlike some Expanded Universe incidences of Jedi turning evil, then turning back and being accepted back into the fold by the other Good Guys, Vader has been the Emperor's righthand man for over two decades. He's done a lot worse than anyone else in that position. He's made a career out of being a Dark Lord of the Sith, not just somebody who went nuts for a few weeks then came to his senses, re-establishing his previous reputation as a do-gooder in the minds of the community. And unless they were able to save some surveilance videos from the DS2 of him chucking Palpy into the chasm of his own volition, the New Republic/Alliance has no more proof that Vader's turned from his evil ways than Luke's say-so.

TK-8252
12-04-2004, 02:16 PM
If Vader had turned the Empire into the New Republic, I wasn't suggesting that Vader still be in a position of power. The Rebel leaders would then become the Republic leaders.

The reason why I figured the Death Star wouldn't need to be destroyed is because the Imperials see Vader as the main authority (they didn't really take orders from Palpatine, except maybe Admiral Piett), so whatever he says goes. If he orders them to surrender, they surrender.

If they didn't trust Luke, the Imperials could allow some Rebels to land in the Death Star or something, and confirm that the Emperor is indeed dead and Vader is turned. No matter what Luke's position is, he's still an authority in the Rebel Alliance. He destroyed the Death Star and rescued Captain Solo and Princess Leia (rescued Leia twice), after all.

As for Vader's "punishment." I'm pretty sure the Jedi code discourages the "death sentence," so if Vader would be executed is very unlikely. He's not going to try to escape if he's in prison, so they wouldn't have to have him constantly watched in maximum-security. But even if he did want to escape, only Jedi guards would present any threat. :p

But who knows what Vader would even want to do after turning the Empire over to the New Republic. Maybe he'd want to be killed so he could become "one with the Force" and join Obi-Wan and Yoda. :)

Kurgan
12-04-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
If Vader had turned the Empire into the New Republic, I wasn't suggesting that Vader still be in a position of power. The Rebel leaders would then become the Republic leaders.

The reason why I figured the Death Star wouldn't need to be destroyed is because the Imperials see Vader as the main authority (they didn't really take orders from Palpatine, except maybe Admiral Piett), so whatever he says goes. If he orders them to surrender, they surrender.

Okay I see what you're saying now. Vader gets on the Comm and says "the Emperor is dead, I'm assuming command, call off your attack" etc. then Luke does his plea for assistance. The battle ends. Makes sense.

However the thing about the Imperials not taking orders from Palpatine is untrue. Remember in ANH, Tarkin was "holding Vader's leash," not the other way around. And in ROTJ we see Palpatine giving the order for the Death Star to fire, and his masterminding of the whole plan. The Admirals talk about the Emperor "having something special planned" etc. He's definately in charge. In ROTJ Vader actually has very little to do except wait on the Command Ship (the Executor), which of course has its own command crew. Vader is there because "his compassion for you will be his undoing".. that is, to lure Skywalker in so he can be turned (or killed, if he refuses to turn), the plot which began in ESB between Vader & the Emperor to eliminate the threat he (Luke) posed. Gain an ally or eliminate an enemy.

So Vader gets to scare the Death Star leader(s) into working faster, and other than that he's bait for Skywalker.


If they didn't trust Luke, the Imperials could allow some Rebels to land in the Death Star or something, and confirm that the Emperor is indeed dead and Vader is turned. No matter what Luke's position is, he's still an authority in the Rebel Alliance. He destroyed the Death Star and rescued Captain Solo and Princess Leia (rescued Leia twice), after all.

He's a war hero, but beyond that, at least at Endor, he's in no position of authority. His opinion would hold sway over Han or Lando, but that's about it.

I'm not saying it would be impossible, but it would be a huge gamble, and I can see it going awry quite easily. And again, it might be too late. Some Imperials, knowing the Emperor was dead, might say "screw Vader" and flee while they still could, or try to seize power themselves. The Death Star might have its own coupe if it wasn't destroyed. Or the fighters and the Falcon may have blown up the DS2 anyway (rather than leave the superweapon to threaten the galaxy).


As for Vader's "punishment." I'm pretty sure the Jedi code discourages the "death sentence," so if Vader would be executed is very unlikely. He's not going to try to escape if he's in prison, so they wouldn't have to have him constantly watched in maximum-security. But even if he did want to escape, only Jedi guards would present any threat. :p

But you have to remember that there is no Jedi Order, as of this time period, and there's no Jedi Code that we know of (Obi-Wan or Yoda don't ever mention it). Even the canon Jedi Order in the prequels never addresses it. We only know that the Empire has the death penalty for "traitors" at least (an alien also mentions the "death sentence on 12 systems" which may or may not be part of the Empire at the time of ANH).

Anyway, even if the Jedi (Luke, and possibly Leia) disapprove of the Death Penalty, so what? They aren't the leaders of the Rebellion, even if they are war heroes. If Mon Mothma agrees to pardon Vader (which is a big if, I imagine the opposition to such a gesture would be huge), fine, but she'd have to be convinced it would be more worthwhile than punishing him. Maybe as a "gamble" to try to bring the Remnant back under control? It's an interesting possibility. I just don't see the Rebel leaders trusting him, period.

In the EU, even Leia was unwilling to "forgive" the ghost of Anakin, years(?) after the battle and didn't want anything to do with him. Luke seemed to be the only living person who forgave him any of his past misdeeds.

But who knows what Vader would even want to do after turning the Empire over to the New Republic. Maybe he'd want to be killed so he could become "one with the Force" and join Obi-Wan and Yoda. :)

Maybe so. It's an open question, to be sure. Even though he's been through a lot, if his suit works properly, he's still only a middle aged man. He might just live out the rest of his days in shame.

TK-8252
12-04-2004, 02:46 PM
I'm thinking that Palpatine's overseeing of the Death Star II's construction is a bit unusual. When Vader informs the Death Star commander (Moff Jerjorroid <sp?>) that the Emperor would be arriving, Jerjorroid is shocked. Until RotJ, Palpatine is pretty much just absent from command. Vader seems to be calling all the shots, until Palpatine shows up unexpectedly. The Imperials, for the most part (except for a few of the yeah, "screw Vader" Imperials who will grab an escape pod and leave), will surrender to the Alliance if Vader orders them to.

Kurgan
12-04-2004, 02:59 PM
Still, he IS the Emperor. And despite his behind-the-back plottings, Vader is loyal to his master.

The entire plot of ROTJ revolves around Palpy wanting to corner the Rebels and wipe them out once and for all, while simultaneously getting Luke out of the way (or on his side, whichever). The Rebels will risk everything to destroy the superweapon, and there is the added bonus of ending the war by assasinating Palpatine at the same time. Palpy used himself as bait. He gave the Rebels a way to shut down the shield, thinking they could get rid of the station much more easily (remember, the Rebels thought the DS2 was basically defenseless without the Shield, thinking the weapon systems were "not yet operational" when in fact they were working just fine).

The fact that the DS2 was constructed seemed to be for a dual purpose... to lure the Rebels in, and then coldly wipe them out (with the Imperial Fleet there just to keep them from escaping).

But yeah, even Vader seems a little surprised by Palpy's revelations to Luke about the whole plot. And Palpy starts having doubts about Vader. But when push comes to shove, Vader protects his master from Luke, until the end. Anyway...

TK-8252
12-04-2004, 03:14 PM
I had to go eat, and didn't get to finish my last post, so here's the rest:

If Luke told the Rebel fleet that he is on the Death Star and he needed to stay, it'd be difficult for the Rebel command to let Luke get killed when he was asking for the attack to be called off. The Rebels aren't like the Empire, remember, the rank system isn't as strict. They listen to everyone, not just those in high command.

As I think more about it, I'd think that Vader probably would have himself killed after making sure the Empire has been converted to the New Republic, just because it's the right thing to do. He's not needed (nor wanted by most people) anymore, and it doesn't seem that bad to become "one with the Force" anyway. :p

Leper Messiah
12-04-2004, 06:10 PM
i dont think anakin/vader could have been forgiven by anyone for his actions as Vader. Lets not forget theyre not alter-egos they are one individual. anyone can express remorse for their actions, but for Anakin i think redemption was only possible in death.

Shok_Tinoktin
12-04-2004, 06:45 PM
The New Republic might have tried Vader for war crimes, but I doubt the Rebel Alliance would have. The Alliance was pretty much a ragtag group of freedom fighters, and most likely did not have a trial system in place. Also, Luke does seem to have a lot of influence in the Alliance. During the time after the Battle of Endor and before the formal formation of the New Republic, Anakin may have been able to prove himself to be a changed man. Then again, maybe not.