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View Full Version : I`ve always wondered: why did Luke go to Jabba's unarmed?


rut-wa jodar
12-31-2004, 09:56 AM
Why did Luke go to Jabba`s palace,unarmed ?

coupes.
12-31-2004, 10:53 AM
He probably was overconfident and though he was already powerful enough with the force. Remember, he easily got passed those 2 gammoreans. Then just before he fell in the rancor pit he tried to steal a guard's blaster via the force...

I think however, the best reason was already stated by TK. He gave his saber to R2 so he could get it back later. If he had kept it on, Jabba's guards would have stripped it off him when they threw him in his cell...

Astrotoy7
12-31-2004, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by coupes.
I think however, the best reason was already stated by TK. He gave his saber to R2 so he could get it back later. If he had kept it on, Jabba's guards would have stripped it off him when they threw him in his cell...

this is exactly true. The ROTJ novelisation states as much

mtfbwya

Revan Solo
01-01-2005, 12:02 AM
I think that is right.
He wasn't in fear without a weapon because he knews that he is already stronger than Jabba's guard pigs.

Pho3nix
01-01-2005, 02:04 AM
Yeah, it was part of his plan.

guybroom
01-04-2005, 12:03 PM
He also thought that he could mind trick jabba like he did the twileck guy who I can't remember his name.

Luke thought he could get in --> mind trick jabba --> get han, chewie and leia --> get out

simple!!! I think not :D

Shok_Tinoktin
01-04-2005, 03:45 PM
not likely. it is doubtful that he expected to be able to cause Jabba to cooperate. if Jabba did cooperate, then Luke would have given up Artoo and Threepio. Unless he intended to make him give the gift back too. Not very Jedily of him though.


btw, the Twi'lek is Bib Fortuna

Revan Solo
01-04-2005, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by guybroom
He also thought that he could mind trick jabba like he did the twileck guy who I can't remember his name.

Luke thought he could get in --> mind trick jabba --> get han, chewie and leia --> get out

simple!!! I think not :D That is good.
It can also be that he overrated himself because he had no experiences.

Was he a fuel Jedi at this moment? I cannot remember at time.

Kryllith
01-05-2005, 04:58 AM
The saber was his contingency plan. Luke knew (or would probably have guessed) that he would have been stripped of his weapon, if not simply to gain an audience with Jabba then definitely if taken prisoner. He figured he could get Solo and Chewie through peaceful means, bargining if possibly and mind-tricking if necessary. If those means failed, he could fall back on the Force to help him in combat (Force Choke, telekinetics on the blaster).

In any event, he kept the saber hidden for use as a weapon of last resort. Granted it almost cost him his life in the Rancor pit. Makes me wonder if he'd done enough research to know whether R2 was in Jabba's palace or on the sail barge...

Kryllith

rut-wa jodar
01-05-2005, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Kryllith
The saber was his contingency plan. Luke knew (or would probably have guessed) that he would have been stripped of his weapon, if not simply to gain an audience with Jabba then definitely if taken prisoner. He figured he could get Solo and Chewie through peaceful means, bargining if possibly and mind-tricking if necessary. If those means failed, he could fall back on the Force to help him in combat (Force Choke, telekinetics on the blaster).

In any event, he kept the saber hidden for use as a weapon of last resort. Granted it almost cost him his life in the Rancor pit. Makes me wonder if he'd done enough research to know whether R2 was in Jabba's palace or on the sail barge...

Kryllith




I think this is the best explanation i`ve heard.

BTW! I always thought that Force choke/grip was a darkside force power, weren`t Jedi only allowed to use lightside force powers?

Doomie
01-05-2005, 10:27 AM
Luke reformed the entire Jedi code, heck, he even got married in EU.

I actually wonder, WHY is jabba immune to the force? Don't hutts have midichlorians or something? Or maybe it's a psychological thing? hmmm...

Shok_Tinoktin
01-05-2005, 10:48 AM
All living things have midichlorians. Hutts are strong minded, and thus cannot be so easily influenced with the force.

Evil Dark Jedi
01-05-2005, 01:25 PM
He went in as his plan. What he did was go in unarmed to Jabba then got thrown into the Rancor Pit. He got taken to the Saarlac and got his saber back and killed everyone. Simple. And it is amazing he planned this.

coupes.
01-05-2005, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by rut-wa jodar
BTW! I always thought that Force choke/grip was a darkside force power, weren`t Jedi only allowed to use lightside force powers?
Luke was slipping towards the dark side at this point I beleive. Remember, Obi-Wan was dead and he hadn't visited Yoda in a while... So he basically had to learn a lot of stuff by himself, sometimes not doing so the "right" way.

El Sitherino
01-05-2005, 09:21 PM
And he wasn't doing that so much as an attack, but as a defense. Thus not dark side.

guybroom
01-06-2005, 10:15 AM
He was using it as an attack, he could have force pushed them if they attacked him.

and kyle katarn in JA uses force lightning as an attack, so i'm not sure it's all darkside, just the way you use it.

El Sitherino
01-06-2005, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by guybroom
He was using it as an attack, he could have force pushed them if they attacked him.

that would've made noise, causing panic and then he would've been in trouble. So no, he couldn't force push.

Originally posted by guybroom
and kyle katarn in JA uses force lightning as an attack, so i'm not sure it's all darkside, just the way you use it. using the force for attack and dominating one weaker than you constitutes using the dark side.

jedispy
03-05-2005, 08:33 PM
Luke went unarmed by mere mortal standards. However he was armed with the greatest weapon, the force. Mere blasters are nothing against the cunning of a Jedi.

Period.

guybroom
03-06-2005, 07:04 AM
I disagree - a blaster in the chest is a blaster in the chest.

Period

jedispy
03-06-2005, 03:53 PM
a blaster in the chest is a blaster in the chest.
Ah but what if the blast to the chest was ineffective? Using primary canonical sources (ie NO EU), we can see that blasters can be ineffective to a Jedi.

Vader was able to block blasts with his hands in ESB. No lightsaber, just pure force absorption (sp?). Since, at the time of the OT, Emperor P & Yoda were more powerful than DV, it can be reasonably assumed that they had this power too. Darth Vader was not a Jedi Master, so it is logical to follow that any Jedi can do it, assuming that their midichlorian count is high enough.

If we were to place this blaster blocking ability into Jedi Academy, then he would have had force protection all the way maxed up (even more than possible).

Since Luke was the son of the 'Son of Suns' (eh...would that make him the Grandson of Suns??) it would only stand to reason that he too would be able to (eventually) perform the same trick. As for midichlorian count, Vader and Emperor P both acknowledged that this one padawan (in ANH and ESB) was strong in the force, and had the ability to destroy them both. Again, quoting only primary canon (no EU) you have to admit that Luke's force potential was powerful, enough to kill both Darth Vader and Emperor P (even if that's not what happens in the end).

To contradict Han Solo, my point is:
A good blaster at your side is no match for hokey religions and ancient weapons.

Exclamation point.

guybroom
03-07-2005, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by jedispy
Ah but what if the blast to the chest was ineffective? Using primary canonical sources (ie NO EU), we can see that blasters can be ineffective to a Jedi.

Vader was able to block blasts with his hands in ESB. No lightsaber, just pure force absorption (sp?). Since, at the time of the OT, Emperor P & Yoda were more powerful than DV, it can be reasonably assumed that they had this power too. Darth Vader was not a Jedi Master, so it is logical to follow that any Jedi can do it, assuming that their midichlorian count is high enough.

[blah blah]

Exclamation point.

Vader had a suit on - surly that helped him

Exclamation point

El Sitherino
03-07-2005, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by guybroom
Vader had a suit on - surly that helped him Nope, it was his use of the force that absorbed the blaster fire.

jedispy
03-07-2005, 04:37 PM
Yes yes...to Insane Sith you listen!

Now based on EU, it has been argued that since Anakin was the Son of suns, that he had the same ability that Corran Horn has (that energy force recharge thingy....o.k. so I can't remember what it's called). However that's based on EU, and therefore has no canonical support.

Getting back to the point, I think Luke's biggest reason why he didn't carry any weapons is because he had:
1. The force.
2. Confidence in the force. For a Jedi, circumstances are rarely an if scenario, but a when scenario. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Qui Gonn didn't foresee his own death.


Ampersand (eh....running out of punctuation)

Kurgan
03-08-2005, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
that would've made noise, causing panic and then he would've been in trouble. So no, he couldn't force push.

using the force for attack and dominating one weaker than you constitutes using the dark side.

Were the Jedi in AOTC or TPM using the Dark Side when they were force pushing Battledroids with furious abandon?

Or is the principle of "self defense" (ie: let the other guy take the first swing, then go all out) applied here, like in the ending to Jedi Knight?

What about the concept of "pre-emption" being tossed around in political circles today with the Iraq war and other instances of US foreign policy. Since Jedi can forsee the future, does that mean they can take pre-emptive action against threats?

What's the difference between using the Force to knock somebody down or choke them, vs. using the Force to guide your lightsaber to cut that person in half?

I'm not saying there's an easy answer, I'm just curious what people's thoughts are.


As to Luke's going into Jabba's unarmed, a lot of us thought that this was the "pure Jedi way" back in the day. That violence is always a last resort with the diplomatic Jedi or something. While they do use diplomacy in the prequels, we never see Jedi entering a situation without their lightsabers, even the supposedly wise and powerful ones like Yoda and Qui Gon Jinn. Is Luke wiser and more powerful than they are?

Yoda uses the Force for attack in AOTC. Some say he was being defensive, because Dooku attacked him first, etc etc. Yoda is the one from whom all this "never for attack" stuff comes from. It could be that Yoda has changed his mind and thinks he was wrong about the Force in the past, and is trying to correct his teachings so that Luke will be a new type of Jedi.

I see it differently now. I see it more like Luke was looking at various possible futures, and in the one where his friends lived to be rescued he had to do it this way. In other words this was the most likely path to success. Plus it gave him the moral high ground because he could then say that he tried diplomacy first, and violence second. If you read any of the Frank Herbert's Dune novels you'll see a good example of what I'm talking about.

As to Jedi taking blaster fire.... Vader is the only Jedi we've seen canonically (G-level canon) block/deflect blaster fire without a lightsaber. In AOTC the Jedi take heavy losses against a Force armed primarily with blasters. We learned two things from that film: massed firepower and distractions can cause Jedi to die.

So I'm thinking it takes an exceptional or experienced and lucky Jedi to be able to do that.

El Sitherino
03-08-2005, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Were the Jedi in AOTC or TPM using the Dark Side when they were force pushing Battledroids with furious abandon?

Or is the principle of "self defense" (ie: let the other guy take the first swing, then go all out) applied here, like in the ending to Jedi Knight?

It's applied here as their doing so was in means to protect the people of the Republic.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Since Jedi can forsee the future, does that mean they can take pre-emptive action against threats?

I'd assume only with the councils agreement could they do a pre-emptive strike.

Originally posted by Kurgan
What's the difference between using the Force to knock somebody down or choke them, vs. using the Force to guide your lightsaber to cut that person in half?

If you're doing it only so you could destroy them it's dark side. As it's a very sadist kind of thing. But if it's your only (or simplest) option of eliminating an enemy, it's on the line. Because you're still attacking with your power, but because you're doing it for the greater good, it's a bit on the line. So I'd say that'd be a very dark-jed/anti-hero kind of thing.

Originally posted by Kurgan
As to Luke's going into Jabba's unarmed, a lot of us thought that this was the "pure Jedi way" back in the day. That violence is always a last resort with the diplomatic Jedi or something. While they do use diplomacy in the prequels, we never see Jedi entering a situation without their lightsabers, even the supposedly wise and powerful ones like Yoda and Qui Gon Jinn. Is Luke wiser and more powerful than they are?

I say it's Luke wanted to test himself for his conflict with Vader. If he could take get out of Jabba's alive with force only, he would find himself more confident in facing Vader. But probably gave his lightsaber to R2 as a precautionary tactic just incase he couldn't handle it yet. I say he did rather well, as I'm sure some lesser jedi have perished from situations like that.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Yoda uses the Force for attack in AOTC. Some say he was being defensive, because Dooku attacked him first, etc etc. Yoda is the one from whom all this "never for attack" stuff comes from. It could be that Yoda has changed his mind and thinks he was wrong about the Force in the past, and is trying to correct his teachings so that Luke will be a new type of Jedi.

I'm assuming you mean the using the force when he's in the lightsaber duel with Dooku and he's bouncing around.
Using the force is part of that style, and considering Yoda's age that was his best means of movement.

If you mean when Dooku did force lightning, Yoda was doing a reflective technique. He absorbed the energy and reflected it back.
All was done in defense of the young jedis, Obi-wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I see it differently now. I see it more like Luke was looking at various possible futures, and in the one where his friends lived to be rescued he had to do it this way. In other words this was the most likely path to success. Plus it gave him the moral high ground because he could then say that he tried diplomacy first, and violence second. If you read any of the Frank Herbert's Dune novels you'll see a good example of what I'm talking about.

Indeed. What he did was diplomacy, but I don't think thats the reason he went without a lightsaber. See my response given above. (It could be but it's not my thought at this point in time)

Originally posted by Kurgan
As to Jedi taking blaster fire.... Vader is the only Jedi we've seen canonically (G-level canon) block/deflect blaster fire without a lightsaber. In AOTC the Jedi take heavy losses against a Force armed primarily with blasters. We learned two things from that film: massed firepower and distractions can cause Jedi to die.


Indeed, and we have to take into account that Vader/Anakin, is the chosen one. This could play heavily in the ability to use the force to block blaster fire. Also yes, any jedi with lack of concentration will meet their end, especially when outnumbered. We know this from the teachings of Yoda, that to use the force effectively you must concentrate. And I'm guessing that when you become a jedi master it's because you've found yourself capable of concentration in even the most intense situations, which is probably why meditation is a high priority for jedi.

Originally posted by Kurgan
So I'm thinking it takes an exceptional or experienced and lucky Jedi to be able to do that.

Exactly.

Kurgan
03-08-2005, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
It's applied here as their doing so was in means to protect the people of the Republic.

Interesting. It's true the Jedi serve (Or believe they are serving in good faith). It will be interesting to see how this may or may not affect their downfall in the last movie.

Likewise it will be interesting to see where and when (if at all) this applies to Anakin's fall. It's been implied or stated that from Vader & Palpatine's point of view they are "bringing order to the galaxy." Do intentions determine if something is "Dark" or not, in Star Wars?

Does the end justify the means? It will be interesting to see how this goes or if it's mentioned at all.

Perhaps the Sith are simply just selfish power-mad hypocrites as their detracters (who happen to be the good guys) portray them after all. ;)


I'd assume only with the councils agreement could they do a pre-emptive strike.

An intriuging possibility. I wonder if the Council could (or would) go over the Senate or Supreme Chancellor's head(s)?

One scenario speculated upon is that the Jedi finally forsee that the Supreme Chancellor is a Sith Lord and try to remove him from office by Force, but fail. And this act of "treason" is then what leads to the Jedi Purge.

I haven't read the spoilers, but that's an intruiging possibility. Perhaps the Jedi acting on good faith is their downfall.


If you're doing it only so you could destroy them it's dark side. As it's a very sadist kind of thing. But if it's your only (or simplest) option of eliminating an enemy, it's on the line.

So using the Force to kill is not necessarily Dark, unless it's pointless slaughter (like Anakin's mass murder of the Tusken camp), but if it's done in a manner to encourage suffering that's the big deal.

That still runs us into some problems though (not saying that he's perfect of course). Why did Luke knock Jabba's thugs wounded but ALIVE into the Sarlacc pit where they would supposedly suffer for millennia? Wouldn't it have been more merciful to simply decapitate them with his saber?

I'm talking in-universe here. Sure Lucas may have had some symbolic ideas in mind here (like Jesus casting demons into hell or something) and he obviously didn't want to push the envelope so he ruined his PG rating, etc.

Another example is why did Luke choke the two Gammorean guards instead of say, mind tricking them so he could pass by (like Obi-Wan did to the Stormtroopers, or Luke himself did later with Bib Fortuna)? It's not as if he lacked this ability, or are we to assume that Bib Fortuna is a weak minded fool, but the pig guards are smart like Watto or Jabba? It's not as if Mind Tricking more than one person at a time can't be done (Obi-Wan mind tricked multiple Stormtroopers at once).

If this were a game I could speculate that Luke did it that way because he was conserving Force Mana. ;)

Perhaps in his visions, this was the "best way" to do it.


Because you're still attacking with your power, but because you're doing it for the greater good, it's a bit on the line. So I'd say that'd be a very dark-jed/anti-hero kind of thing.

So would it be permissable for a Jedi Knight to use Force Lightning or Force Choke in order to say, extract some information about enemy movements, to help the war effort? Or say, to make an example of some bad guy to put the fear of law & order into other bad guys? Those would be for the "Greater Good."

I'm not saying I would agree with those actions either, but I'm playing devil's advocate for your position.


I say it's Luke wanted to test himself for his conflict with Vader. If he could take get out of Jabba's alive with force only, he would find himself more confident in facing Vader.

A very good point. One could say that is foolish because he's risking his friend's lives on some self actualization program, but then it does gel with the later scenes of Luke throwing away his lightsaber after Palpatine tempts him to "finish off" Vader. Also in those scenes he originally comes to the Emperor without his lightsaber. The lightsaber in those scenes is constantly being introduced (by the Officer "He was armed only with this".. by Vader "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber" and by the Emperor "You want this, don't you..."). The lightsaber is a symbol then of the violence and path to the Dark Side in that case. When he finally puts it away deliberately, good triumphs.


But probably gave his lightsaber to R2 as a precautionary tactic just incase he couldn't handle it yet. I say he did rather well, as I'm sure some lesser jedi have perished from situations like that.


I see it as part of his prescient vision of how he would win. He could have I guess just used a blaster on the thugs and used the Force to dodge all those lasers or something. But maybe that wouldn't fit in with the symbolism that Lucas was going for in those scenes.


I'm assuming you mean the using the force when he's in the lightsaber duel with Dooku and he's bouncing around.
Using the force is part of that style, and considering Yoda's age that was his best means of movement.

Yeah. My point is that Yoda is using the Force for attack. He's tossing Lightning at Dooku (if he wasn't supposed to attack, he could have simply dispersed it or absorbed it, as he did also in that scene). And yes, he does use the Force to give him mobility (in order to fight), true. In TPM the Jedi use Force Push on droids (as do the Jedi in AOTC). Obi-Wan in TPM uses the Force to grab Qui Gon's lightsaber in order to kill Darth Maul with it.


If you mean when Dooku did force lightning, Yoda was doing a reflective technique. He absorbed the energy and reflected it back.

Since this point has been debated here quite a bit, let's use an analogy.

Let's say I'm an expert Knife fighter. I am teaching a student and say "A knife fighter uses knives for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

Then you somehow go back in time and see me in a Knife fight with someone. The guy throws a knife at me. I catch the knife and throw it back at him.

Was I using the Knife for attack? Or for "Defense"? What exactly is "Defense"? Can there be such a thing as defensive attacks?

If it were simply about pacifism, then I could have caught the knife and dropped it or kept it, rather than throwing it back. Likewise Yoda could have not throw the lightning back. So I contend he was using the Force for attack.

So either this did not contradict (in his mind) his philosophy of "never for attack" or else it does, and Yoda changed his mind over the years about how a Jedi should behave.


All was done in defense of the young jedis, Obi-wan and Anakin.

One could also argue that Dooku's use of the Force in that battle was in defense of his own life (the Jedi were attacking him, trying to kill him in fact, though their justification was ending the war quicker, thus preventing more loss of life).

This is in contrast to Palpatine's use of Lightning on Luke. After he had knocked Luke down with Lightning and the youth was clearly defenseless, he continued to use the power to torture him slowly to death. So in that sense he was definately being aggressive with his use of his powers.

Dooku I suppose could have surrendered, but how did he know the Jedi would have accepted his surrender and not simply killed the "traitor" who had betrayed his government and his Order?


Indeed. What he did was diplomacy, but I don't think thats the reason he went without a lightsaber. See my response given above. (It could be but it's not my thought at this point in time)

Fair enough. I would also acknowledge that the Jedi in the prequels go on diplomatic missions armed with their lightsabers (and for good reason in the cases of the movies!). Used as diplomats, they are also intimidating figures, used to scare miscreants into line (note the example of the Trade Federation, of course the Jedi didn't count on them gaining courage through Sideous to try to liquidate the diplomats).



Indeed, and we have to take into account that Vader/Anakin, is the chosen one. This could play heavily in the ability to use the force to block blaster fire. Also yes, any jedi with lack of concentration will meet their end, especially when outnumbered. We know this from the teachings of Yoda, that to use the force effectively you must concentrate. And I'm guessing that when you become a jedi master it's because you've found yourself capable of concentration in even the most intense situations, which is probably why meditation is a high priority for jedi.

Agreed.

jedispy
03-08-2005, 02:13 PM
I think the overall idea for whether or not force is light or dark is what your intention is. Why Yoda fired the force lightening back at Dooku, who knows other than GL. My theory was to immobilize Dooku. Also he needed to prove that he is still the master. Yoda was able to absorb the lightening, while the best Dooku could do is deflect it. In any case, it was a light side action.

In the Thrawn trilogy by Zahn, Luke throws his lightsaber, and directs it to fly and kill the enemies (I think they were stormtroopers). Now that was blatently an attack, and the enemy ended up dying as a result. However, it was in self defense. Hence, the action was light side based.

In Jabba's palace, Luke immobilizes the Gamorreans by choking them. However they do not die. Light side action.

The only time I can think of where a Jedi used dark side to attack was in TPM when Kenobi attacked Maul. He let his anger grab hold, and he lashed out. However, when the time came to kill Maul, it was in self defense.
The end result was light side based, but Kenobi came close.

El Sitherino
03-08-2005, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Do intentions determine if something is "Dark" or not, in Star Wars?

I would say so. If your intentions are truely for good it's not what I'd call dark, unless you go about it in a manner that isn't necessary. But sometimes in the heat of battle, you tend to slip and borderline in order to contain the situation.

Originally posted by Kurgan
An intriuging possibility. I wonder if the Council could (or would) go over the Senate or Supreme Chancellor's head(s)?

Possibly, but only if need be. I'm certain if they do take action it is after much meditation/thinking on.

Originally posted by Kurgan
One scenario speculated upon is that the Jedi finally forsee that the Supreme Chancellor is a Sith Lord and try to remove him from office by Force, but fail. And this act of "treason" is then what leads to the Jedi Purge.

I haven't read the spoilers, but that's an intruiging possibility. Perhaps the Jedi acting on good faith is their downfall.

Indeed, I would assume because of their commonly passive stance they end up all but eliminated.


Originally posted by Kurgan
So using the Force to kill is not necessarily Dark, unless it's pointless slaughter (like Anakin's mass murder of the Tusken camp), but if it's done in a manner to encourage suffering that's the big deal.

The thing is if it's intention is to yes, cause pain but also to instill fear and over all just completely rule someone/something.
Something torturous.

Originally posted by Kurgan
That still runs us into some problems though (not saying that he's perfect of course). Why did Luke knock Jabba's thugs wounded but ALIVE into the Sarlacc pit where they would supposedly suffer for millennia? Wouldn't it have been more merciful to simply decapitate them with his saber?

Luke never really finished his training with Yoda, and still being a beginner he is susceptable to delving into the darkside, this is a very subtle showing of this. (speculation) We later see him thinking back on it and other mistakes when looking at his mechanical arm and thinking about his father. Atleast that's my take, that he's thinking if he keeps falling like that he'll end up like his father as his mechanical hand has shown.



Originally posted by Kurgan
Another example is why did Luke choke the two Gammorean guards instead of say, mind tricking them so he could pass by (like Obi-Wan did to the Stormtroopers, or Luke himself did later with Bib Fortuna)? It's not as if he lacked this ability, or are we to assume that Bib Fortuna is a weak minded fool, but the pig guards are smart like Watto or Jabba? It's not as if Mind Tricking more than one person at a time can't be done (Obi-Wan mind tricked multiple Stormtroopers at once).

I'm not certain about this yet. I never really tried to study this scene as I figured it was more or less Luke trying to imobilize his opposition. Perhaps because he didn't have the mental focus to mind trick both the 2 guards and Bib Fortuna, so he went with just mind tricking Bib as he was the higher up, secondary to Jabba.

Originally posted by Kurgan
If this were a game I could speculate that Luke did it that way because he was conserving Force Mana. ;)

XD

Originally posted by Kurgan
Perhaps in his visions, this was the "best way" to do it.

Perhaps.


Originally posted by Kurgan
So would it be permissable for a Jedi Knight to use Force Lightning or Force Choke in order to say, extract some information about enemy movements, to help the war effort? Or say, to make an example of some bad guy to put the fear of law & order into other bad guys? Those would be for the "Greater Good."

I'm not sure, I think that would be more or less torture, which would definitely be dark side. I'm certain a jedi's means for extracting information would be more humane.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I'm not saying I would agree with those actions either, but I'm playing devil's advocate for your position.

Gotcha, I think jedi would first, of course, try a mind trick. Should this fail they'd try other means that won't be near using force power to torture. There's doing something for the greater good, and then there's just excessive force.

Originally posted by Kurgan
A very good point. One could say that is foolish because he's risking his friend's lives on some self actualization program, but then it does gel with the later scenes of Luke throwing away his lightsaber after Palpatine tempts him to "finish off" Vader. Also in those scenes he originally comes to the Emperor without his lightsaber. The lightsaber in those scenes is constantly being introduced (by the Officer "He was armed only with this".. by Vader "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber" and by the Emperor "You want this, don't you..."). The lightsaber is a symbol then of the violence and path to the Dark Side in that case. When he finally puts it away deliberately, good triumphs.

Well said, I think he would have a back up plan should his test fail so that he could still rescue his friends. He might be a beginner but he's still not an idiot. He probably had a few plans in the back incase something went wrong with his initial plan to use this as a testing ground.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I see it as part of his prescient vision of how he would win. He could have I guess just used a blaster on the thugs and used the Force to dodge all those lasers or something. But maybe that wouldn't fit in with the symbolism that Lucas was going for in those scenes.

He could have used a blaster but that would go against the principle. I know we see him force pull a blaster but I see that was more of a means of distraction, because if he really wanted it, he could have gotten it and used it and the whole Rancor incident could have been avoided.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Yeah. My point is that Yoda is using the Force for attack. He's tossing Lightning at Dooku (if he wasn't supposed to attack, he could have simply dispersed it or absorbed it, as he did also in that scene).

I think he just wanted to kind of show Dooku he wasn't to be messed with.
His intention was obviously intimidation, and I assume since Dooku was his padawan learner at one point, he knew Dooku could easily avoid the lightning. And I feel Dooku using his force lightning was over-cockiness releasing. Trying to show Yoda he was no longer a "mere jedi" but a Sith that was a force (pardon the pun) to be reckoned with.

And judging by the motions it was a deflection (a cycling defense, kind of like hip throwing your opponent) rather than a catch and throw back. Perhaps my wording was poor.

Originally posted by Kurgan
If it were simply about pacifism, then I could have caught the knife and dropped it or kept it, rather than throwing it back. Likewise Yoda could have not throw the lightning back. So I contend he was using the Force for attack.

See above. But this explination could be thrown away. But I'm just going by what I noticed and what I remember from my martial arts classes.

Originally posted by Kurgan
So either this did not contradict (in his mind) his philosophy of "never for attack" or else it does, and Yoda changed his mind over the years about how a Jedi should behave.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm not certain.


Originally posted by Kurgan
One could also argue that Dooku's use of the Force in that battle was in defense of his own life (the Jedi were attacking him, trying to kill him in fact, though their justification was ending the war quicker, thus preventing more loss of life).

True. But like you said it is a war. This also leads to kind of overthrowing some of the pacifism due to the need to stay alive and ... save the universe.


Originally posted by Kurgan
This is in contrast to Palpatine's use of Lightning on Luke. After he had knocked Luke down with Lightning and the youth was clearly defenseless, he continued to use the power to torture him slowly to death. So in that sense he was definately being aggressive with his use of his powers.

Yes, Palpatine was definitely on the dark side by doing this. Kicking a person when they're down. And he was doing it out of anger, hatred, and extreme disgust of Luke's unwillingness to turn to the dark side. He wanted to make Luke suffer and he wanted to annihilate him. Remove the dignity of Lukes death by making him cry for help.
The jedi value a dignifying death.
And considering Lucas' main influence was the samurai, the most honourable death is that suffered in battle, especially war. So one could say when Luke killed the skiff men, he was giving them an honourable death. Their sufferage could be taken as martyrism by their fellow fighters (;))

Originally posted by Kurgan
Dooku I suppose could have surrendered, but how did he know the Jedi would have accepted his surrender and not simply killed the "traitor" who had betrayed his government and his Order?

Considering who Dooku was ultimately allied with, surrendering was NOT an option. The suffering he would go through at the hands of Sidious would most definitely be greater than that Luke went through.

Originally posted by Kurgan
air enough. I would also acknowledge that the Jedi in the prequels go on diplomatic missions armed with their lightsabers (and for good reason in the cases of the movies!). Used as diplomats, they are also intimidating figures, used to scare miscreants into line (note the example of the Trade Federation, of course the Jedi didn't count on them gaining courage through Sideous to try to liquidate the diplomats).

Indeed, but also I assume they keep their lightsabers with them as it's a symbol of their position in society. In the OT the jedi are believed dead. Showing a lightsaber would definitely cause trouble.
And should conflict ultimately arrise they would need their lightsabers to stay alive. As I'm certain the whole using the force to block blaster fire is something only a skilled jedi master could do, it was common practice to do it (carry a lightsaber), regardless of "rank". It also shows uniformity. So master, knight, and even padawan held somewhat equal as a force.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Agreed.


:)

jedispy
03-08-2005, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Why did Luke knock Jabba's thugs wounded but ALIVE into the Sarlacc pit where they would supposedly suffer for millennia?
Bear with me here. According to SWRPG rules most humanoids have average human skill. In turn, humans are considered to be average among the galaxies' lifeforms. Now of course larger bipeds like Chewbacca will have greater than human skill in strength, whereas biped species like Brainiac (a good ol' EU favorite) have greater than human intellect (he could calculate hyperspace calculations in his head.) My point in all this: the types of humanoids on the barges did not show greater than human skill/ability (Weequay, Twi'lek, Nikto, Human, etc...).

It thus can be assumed that
1. The fall alone might have killed them. I estimate the fall to have been at least 100 ft, more than lethal for an average human.
2. Luke hit most of them with his lightsaber. If the severe maiming + the fall didn't kill them, then they most likely would have entered the sarlacc unconscious.

Then how about the ones that did survive and/or where conscious?
**Well this has been widely argued. We know from what C-3PO translated, that a Sarlacc digests its food slowly over a thousand years. The questions one must ask are
1. can a human live/survive for a standard lifetime inside a Sarlacc without air, food, or water?
2. does this mean that the Sarlacc extends the life of the inhabitant?

There are varying reports of average human life expectancy in Star Wars(In the original novel of ANH, Kenobi was considered elderly at 80+ years old, whereas in Truce At Bakura there was an old woman who was 130, and not considered too old.) However, to be fair let's take the larger number.

Unforunately GL has never specified this. Either way, the death is long and horrible.

Originally posted by Kurgan
It's not as if he lacked this ability, or are we to assume that Bib Fortuna is a weak minded fool, but the pig guards are smart like Watto or Jabba?
Another question to ask is can a life form be too weak minded to accept suggestions through the force? My theory is that animals are not open to force suggestions. They are too primitive. Gamorreans are quite primitively minded. They're big and strong, but not intelligent at all. Supporting this theory is on Geonosis when Anakin calmed the orray. He couldn't use a jedi mind trick and command it to calm. He had to use another type of force power in the Alter Tier of force powers.

Of course this is just a theory

El Sitherino
03-08-2005, 07:26 PM
Using EU based theories in a debate about movie canon = not good idea. Especially with Kurgan. ;)

jedispy
03-08-2005, 07:59 PM
My bad. I meant no offense to the SW canon purists. I agree that EU is bad for basing one's view of Star Wars. My point was merely that George Lucas hasn't specified average human life expentancy.

Back to the topic, I think Luke understood certain things about his Jabba's Palace encounter. He knew, through the force, that he would not need any weapons until such a time required it. (granted it would have helped more had he been armed vs. the Rancor, but he did fine without.) He had foreknowledge of some of the events. This is evident in how he had Artoo store the lightsaber, and arrive at Jabba's Palace a day ahead of him (of course length of time is unknown and irrelevant.) Perhaps the answer to all of our questions (why did Luke use the force to attack, why did he allow the people to suffer in the Sarlacc, etc...) is because he foresaw it as inevitable in needing to rescue Han. He knew that Han played a key role in the Rebellion's victory over the Empire (as we see in the battle of Endor).

I guess he knew that the end would justify the mean.

Kurgan
03-11-2005, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
Possibly, but only if need be. I'm certain if they do take action it is after much meditation/thinking on.


Indeed, I would assume because of their commonly passive stance they end up all but eliminated.


I don't know about this. I am tending to see the "passive" philosophy as something that Yoda came up with, after all his time to think hiding on Dagobah about "what went wrong" after the Purge. Prior to the Empire being established the Jedi were quite the warrior monks. My theoretical scenario would involve violence getting them into trouble, because nobody would believe them vs. the word of the beloved Supreme Chanceller (who has everyone under his spell).

Sort of like what happened when Hitler's underlings tried to assasinate him, but failed. Obviously he wasn't going to just let them hang around. They had to be made an example of. Given Palpy's penchant for setting traps, this seems like the kind of thing he'd do precisely to lure them to where he could finally be rid of them.


The thing is if it's intention is to yes, cause pain but also to instill fear and over all just completely rule someone/something.
Something torturous.


The whole question of intentions to me is a muddy one. Because one could say that "fear" to law enforcement is "deterence."

Thus all police states and totalitarian regimes, etc. can justify their actions by saying that they are maintaining law and order, etc. So how does the Jedi know when he's really doing something for the ultimate good, and not just giving himself excuses for his actions?

If a Jedi is "calm at peace, passive" that's fine, but does that mean he's now a cold blooded killer, instead of an angry killer?

Granted, this goes along with some earth based philosophies. Kill when you have to, just don't enjoy it (blood thirsty).


Luke never really finished his training with Yoda, and still being a beginner he is susceptable to delving into the darkside, this is a very subtle showing of this.

(speculation) We later see him thinking back on it and other mistakes when looking at his mechanical arm and thinking about his father. Atleast that's my take, that he's thinking if he keeps falling like that he'll end up like his father as his mechanical hand has shown. [/quote]

I agree with your assessment.


I'm not certain about this yet. I never really tried to study this scene as I figured it was more or less Luke trying to imobilize his opposition. Perhaps because he didn't have the mental focus to mind trick both the 2 guards and Bib Fortuna, so he went with just mind tricking Bib as he was the higher up, secondary to Jabba.


I don't really know either.


I'm not sure, I think that would be more or less torture, which would definitely be dark side. I'm certain a jedi's means for extracting information would be more humane.

Hopefully. I'm just going along with the devil's advocate thing with the "greater good" intention idea. If the greater good is always the light side, then one could make up any manner of excuses for any action.


Gotcha, I think jedi would first, of course, try a mind trick. Should this fail they'd try other means that won't be near using force power to torture. There's doing something for the greater good, and then there's just excessive force.

Yeah. I agree, I'm just using that to challenge the idea that pure intention is all that determines the difference between light & dark.


He could have used a blaster but that would go against the principle. I know we see him force pull a blaster but I see that was more of a means of distraction, because if he really wanted it, he could have gotten it and used it and the whole Rancor incident could have been avoided.


I think he planned to shoot Jabba in the face. That's apparently what would have happened if the guards hadn't mobbed him (and Jabba hit the switch on the trapdoor). Either Luke got overconfident or this was part of his plan too...


I think he just wanted to kind of show Dooku he wasn't to be messed with.

Pride. ; ) Yoda could see it in the other Jedi, but perhaps not in himself!


His intention was obviously intimidation, and I assume since Dooku was his padawan learner at one point, he knew Dooku could easily avoid the lightning. And I feel Dooku using his force lightning was over-cockiness releasing. Trying to show Yoda he was no longer a "mere jedi" but a Sith that was a force (pardon the pun) to be reckoned with.

I agree with you there. He was showing off, as well as trying to kill his old master. Once he realized he was over his head, he did the traditional villian thing, and made a distraction so he could escape.


And judging by the motions it was a deflection (a cycling defense, kind of like hip throwing your opponent) rather than a catch and throw back. Perhaps my wording was poor.

You'll notice Yoda does the "absorbing" action at the end with the last lightning burst, and he doesn't throw that one back. So yeah, it's not a simple "catch and release." Likewise Dooku didn't have the power to absorb it apparently (or didn't expect it) he had to block it into the ceiling. Perhaps Dooku didn't expect Yoda to fight back. Then again, maybe he originally learned the Lightning trick from Yoda. Who knows!


True. But like you said it is a war. This also leads to kind of overthrowing some of the pacifism due to the need to stay alive and ... save the universe.

I don't see the Jedi as pacifists at all. If they considered themselves pacifists, they were hypocrites for fighting in the Clone Wars. Can a policeman be a pacifist? Maybe, maybe... but a soldier? No way. It's complete doublethink. I think Yoda is just changing the philosophy over time. Or else the Jedi have been hypocrites all these years and he's going for the "real thing" now after he's had time to reflect on their failures. Funny though, how now he needs a warrior (to defeat Vader & Palpatine). But seeing as how Palpatine meets his end, I guess it worked.


The jedi value a dignifying death.
And considering Lucas' main influence was the samurai, the most honourable death is that suffered in battle, especially war.

I wouldn't take that analogy too far though. After all we've never seen a Jedi try to commit ritual suicide (unless you count maybe Luke jumping off Cloud City).


So one could say when Luke killed the skiff men, he was giving them an honourable death. Their sufferage could be taken as martyrism by their fellow fighters (;))


If I were SuperShadow I'd say "This idea will be forwarded to Lucas." But I'm not. ;) Sorry, couldn't resist!


Considering who Dooku was ultimately allied with, surrendering was NOT an option. The suffering he would go through at the hands of Sidious would most definitely be greater than that Luke went through.


Good point. He'd have to face Palpatine no matter what happened.


Indeed, but also I assume they keep their lightsabers with them as it's a symbol of their position in society. In the OT the jedi are believed dead. Showing a lightsaber would definitely cause trouble.
And should conflict ultimately arrise they would need their lightsabers to stay alive. As I'm certain the whole using the force to block blaster fire is something only a skilled jedi master could do, it was common practice to do it (carry a lightsaber), regardless of "rank". It also shows uniformity. So master, knight, and even padawan held somewhat equal as a force.

Carrying a weapon is one thing. I see what you're saying about a ceremonial weapon. However we've seen the weapons are deadly effective. Nobody can use a lightsaber as efficiently as a killing tool as a Jedi. So it's not as if they are just carrying wooden swords for parades and such. It's not like the ceremonial daggar of a Sihk. It would be like if you had these guys carrying around sniper rifles, and they were the world's greatest marksmen ever. Their reputation as fierce fighters precedes them.

As to blocking blaster fire, I dunno, Luke seemed to be able to get it pretty quickly, after just a few minutes of practice with a remote. Maybe he was the Chosen One's son, but still...

Kurgan
03-11-2005, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by jedispy
It thus can be assumed that
1. The fall alone might have killed them. I estimate the fall to have been at least 100 ft, more than lethal for an average human.
2. Luke hit most of them with his lightsaber. If the severe maiming + the fall didn't kill them, then they most likely would have entered the sarlacc unconscious.


Interesting theory, though of course it seems contradicted by the film evidence which shows the baddies screaming as they fall out of sight into the mouth, or struggling and yelling as they are pulled down by the tentacles. They seem very much alive...

Many of them had armor on, but doubtful it would protect their necks if they landed badly on the sand. Lando fell off and he wasn't knocked unconscious/dead.


1. can a human live/survive for a standard lifetime inside a Sarlacc without air, food, or water?
2. does this mean that the Sarlacc extends the life of the inhabitant?

There are varying reports of average human life expectancy in Star Wars(In the original novel of ANH, Kenobi was considered elderly at 80+ years old, whereas in Truce At Bakura there was an old woman who was 130, and not considered too old.) However, to be fair let's take the larger number.

Unforunately GL has never specified this. Either way, the death is long and horrible.

Yeah. I see the "over a thousand years" as an exaggeration, meant to scare the crap out of those poor souls they are about to toss into it. I doubt they'd live for more than a few days. Though of course the EU invented a literal explanation that you were somehow merged with the consciousness and all that, which strikes me as a legend, again, crafted to enhance the fear of this method of execution. Jabba loves to see his enemies squirm.

As to the life expectancy thing, I think in the EU it's like 130 years. But that's a far cry from "over a thousand years" or even just 1,000 years.


Another question to ask is can a life form be too weak minded to accept suggestions through the force? My theory is that animals are not open to force suggestions. They are too primitive. Gamorreans are quite primitively minded. They're big and strong, but not intelligent at all.

Supporting this theory is on Geonosis when Anakin calmed the orray. He couldn't use a jedi mind trick and command it to calm. He had to use another type of force power in the Alter Tier of force powers.

I was just going to say... however, again you're using a game mechanic to explain this. Why can't it be a Mind Trick? A Mind Trick need not include words. Note when Obi-Wan mind tricked the Troopers on the Death Star, he didn't say a word, yet they were fooled and didn't see him pass even though he was in their field of view.

I don't think the Rhino creature is likely to be more intelligent than the Gammorean guards, so Luke probably could have mind tricked them to let him pass. Why didn't he? Who knows...

I think the point of the scene was to make you go "wow, Luke sure has gotten more powerful in the force!" and maybe remind you somewhat of Vader (the only person to use the Force to choke others so far). Other reminders are the black clothes and the mechanical hand. He's becoming like his Father in little ways.

El Sitherino
03-11-2005, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I don't see the Jedi as pacifists at all. If they considered themselves pacifists, they were hypocrites for fighting in the Clone Wars. Can a policeman be a pacifist? Maybe, maybe... but a soldier? No way
"We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." - Mace Windu

I think they are rather passive. Thrown into a state of chaos like the clone wars really sent a break down the system. The jedi never saw it coming, they had no time to prepare, establish new codes to meet these hard times.

The jedi were being trained in arts of negotiation, diplomacy, and using lightsabers only to block blaster fire.
Suddenly came a sith menace, most jedi were not properly trained for lightsaber on lightsaber conflict.

They were pacifists, but sometimes you can only go so long until danger is right there in your face showing that you will be destroyed. That was the point of attack of the clones, that they were keepers of the peace but all this came rushing in from left field and they were thrown into doing what they were never meant, or prepared, to do. Become soldiers. Perhaps they jaded themselves by saying "I'm still keeping peace, but I have to do it through means of war". Who knows.


I'm still trying to figure out where you got the fierce warriors thing. As far as I know, people thought of them as guardians of the galaxy.


Originally posted by Kurgan
As to blocking blaster fire, I dunno, Luke seemed to be able to get it pretty quickly, after just a few minutes of practice with a remote. Maybe he was the Chosen One's son, but still... I'm talking about what Vader did in Empire. Using the force to block blasterfire, not a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I wouldn't take that analogy too far though. After all we've never seen a Jedi try to commit ritual suicide (unless you count maybe Luke jumping off Cloud City).

One could say by him confronting his father and returning him to grace, he's reclaiming his honour. But Yeah, it was never anything I would claim as a strong theory. ;)


Originally posted by Kurgan
Pride. ; ) Yoda could see it in the other Jedi, but perhaps not in himself!


Or perhaps he still expected respect from his old padawan. Perhaps he did see foolish pride in himself, he said all jedi suffer from it, young and old. Sure we knew he was hinting to Obi-Wan right there. But he could also be talking about all jedi young and old in an underlying manner. *shrugs* perhaps I'm just digging.

Originally posted by Kurgan
You'll notice Yoda does the "absorbing" action at the end with the last lightning burst, and he doesn't throw that one back. So yeah, it's not a simple "catch and release.

Point conceded, I'd forgotten about that.


But anyway, it's not just intentions, it's actions and how they're used that determine if you're truely on the Dark side or the Light side.

jedispy
03-11-2005, 11:21 AM
Hrm....all good points. VERY good points. As for mind trick, I'm not certain Kenobi used "Mind Trick" on the stormtroopers. It was a trick, and it was used to alter their minds. However this brings to mind something I read once.

In regards to the force, I remember a publication (can't remember the name though) where George Lucas classifies all force powers into 3 categories.
1. Control - Manipulation of physical objects. This includes push, pull, choke, levitate, force lightening (uses psy-kinetic energy to electrify physical matter), lightsaber dueling, lightsaber defense.

2. Sense - This uses both enhanced Jedi senses (scent, sight, sound, touch, taste), as well as extra-sensory perception. This is how Vader and Emperor P can sense Luke as a disturbance in the force, how Qui Gonn can detect Anakin's overwhelming power, how Luke communicates to Leia on Bespin, etc....
(also used in lightsaber defense to detect enemy attacks)

3. Alter - Manipulation of the mind. Here lies the Jedi Mind Trick, the Jedi Battle Meditation (only officially done in EU, though rumored to be done by Emperor P to coordinate Imp forces), Sith art of intimidation (whenever dueling when a Sith taunts the enemy), mind probes, etc....


I wish I could remember the name of that publication. If I can find it I will post a link.

El Sitherino
03-11-2005, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by jedispy
As for mind trick, I'm not certain Kenobi used "Mind Trick" on the stormtroopers. It was a trick, and it was used to alter their minds. Jedi Mind Trick.

jedispy
03-11-2005, 02:11 PM
Jedi Mind Trick.
uh..... Naturally that's what I meant. I'm certain that's what everyone understood it to be. Watto called it mind trick in TPM when Qui Gonn tried to use it on him. ("Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money.") Also, mind trick is not a power that is exclusive to the Jedi order. A force-sensitive person trained in the ways of the force would be able to use it.

Kurgan brings up a good point. Why didn't Luke just use mind trick on the Gamorreans rather than choke? I argued that the Gamorreans were as dumb as an animal. However now I think about it, that's not right. Star Wars treats Gamorreans as sentient biengs, whereas animals (such as a Tauntaun) are non-sentient. Well pointed out Kurgan.

Perhaps another reason why Luke didn't bring weapons had to do with what the Emperor said was his weakness; his faith in his friends. Remember that he knew Lando (dressed as Tamtell Skreej) was there, as was Leia and Chewbacca. He knew also that if needed, he could get the lightsaber from Artoo. I think he hadn't counted on Han being blind, or himself being thrown into a rancor pit. However, even with this stacked against him, his Jedi intuition enabled him to see either the final outcome, or at at least that which follows next (i.e. going to the Sarlacc, destroying the sail barge, etc....) It's not that Luke was cocky like Han, or arrogant like the Empire. He had faith, which is one of the greatest forces in existence, both in fiction as well as real life.

El Sitherino
03-11-2005, 02:19 PM
So then why did you say...

Originally posted by jedispy
I'm not certain Kenobi used "Mind Trick" on the stormtroopers.
?

jedispy
03-11-2005, 04:24 PM
Because I said
3. Alter - Manipulation of the mind. Here lies the Jedi Mind Trick, the Jedi Battle Meditation (only officially done in EU, though rumored to be done by Emperor P to coordinate Imp forces), Sith art of intimidation (whenever dueling when a Sith taunts the enemy), mind probes, etc....
I implied that the force power kenobi used was certainly part of the Alter tier of the Force. Jedi Mind Trick is a part of Alter. Now if there's a deleted scene where Kenobi walks onto stage holding a sign that reads "hey audience, I'm going to use Jedi Mind Trick, just do you know," then we can know for certain what the name of the force power is. I wasn't really intending on disputing this. I previously was trying to make a possible distinction between the use of force in which verbal commands are given (i.e. "These aren't the droids you're looking for") and using the force to distract enemies (i.e. what Kenobi uses to distract the guards after shutting down shield generator). I am not making that point anymore since:
1. It's irrelevant to the topic
2. Nobody really cares anyway.

Peace my friend.

Kurgan
03-12-2005, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by jedispy
Because I said

I implied that the force power kenobi used was certainly part of the Alter tier of the Force. Jedi Mind Trick is a part of Alter. Now if there's a deleted scene where Kenobi walks onto stage holding a sign that reads "hey audience, I'm going to use Jedi Mind Trick, just do you know," then we can know for certain what the name of the force power is. I wasn't really intending on disputing this. I previously was trying to make a possible distinction between the use of force in which verbal commands are given (i.e. "These aren't the droids you're looking for") and using the force to distract enemies (i.e. what Kenobi uses to distract the guards after shutting down shield generator). I am not making that point anymore since:
1. It's irrelevant to the topic
2. Nobody really cares anyway.

Peace my friend.

Ok so this merely shifts the point from "why didn't Luke Mind Trick the Gammoreans" to "why didn't he 'alter' the Gammoreans."

Of course that still assumes we're adhereing to a game mechanic. How do we know that "Alter" doesn't work on similar principles to "Mind Trick." Much like Push and Pull and other TK related powers would, in all likelihood.

We'd have to argue that this is a "top level" power. That Luke simply doesn't know how to do it, right? Nobody taught him. But then, who taught him how to Force choke? Yoda? Obi-Wan? Why would they teach him this supposed "Dark Side Power" but not something less violent like "Alter"? It's not as if Luke ever witnessed Vader choking anyone either, so how did he figure out how to do it?

I agree with you that I think Luke probably made a few mistakes. Like when he got shot in the arm and angrily lashed out at one guard. It seems like something he didn't plan on (though why did he have his hand straight up in the air during the battle anyway?).

Originally posted by jedispy
Hrm....all good points. VERY good points. As for mind trick, I'm not certain Kenobi used "Mind Trick" on the stormtroopers. It was a trick, and it was used to alter their minds. However this brings to mind something I read once.

In regards to the force, I remember a publication (can't remember the name though) where George Lucas classifies all force powers into 3 categories.
1. Control - Manipulation of physical objects. This includes push, pull, choke, levitate, force lightening (uses psy-kinetic energy to electrify physical matter), lightsaber dueling, lightsaber defense.

2. Sense - This uses both enhanced Jedi senses (scent, sight, sound, touch, taste), as well as extra-sensory perception. This is how Vader and Emperor P can sense Luke as a disturbance in the force, how Qui Gonn can detect Anakin's overwhelming power, how Luke communicates to Leia on Bespin, etc....
(also used in lightsaber defense to detect enemy attacks)

3. Alter - Manipulation of the mind. Here lies the Jedi Mind Trick, the Jedi Battle Meditation (only officially done in EU, though rumored to be done by Emperor P to coordinate Imp forces), Sith art of intimidation (whenever dueling when a Sith taunts the enemy), mind probes, etc....


I wish I could remember the name of that publication. If I can find it I will post a link.

Interesting stuff. If you could find that, this would lend a lot of support to the argument. For now though it's just arguing from a game. And we know games change things for balance/challenge/fun.

The whole "battle meditation thing" is one possible interpretation of some passages in the ROTJ novel, and I think that's where it originally comes from. The EU made it "official."