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View Full Version : There is no good or evil? *possible spoilers*


Polychrome
01-11-2005, 03:04 PM
This is going to sound incredibly stupid to some of you. Bear with me.

Now, at the end of the Jedi Academy game (maybe it was Jedi Outcast, haven't played either in awhile), Didn't Marka Ragnos go "There is no good or evil, only power, and those too weak to seek it"?

Oddly enough, this isn't the only place I've seen this line. It's also in the first Harry Potter book, which makes me wonder if it's a reference to something.

So, can anybody think of where this line originated? I'm just really curious. (Heck, it might have originated in HP. Who would expect a reference to it in Star Wars of all things? LOL)

TK-8252
01-11-2005, 05:35 PM
No.

Nokill
01-11-2005, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
No.

what he says

Druid Allanon
01-11-2005, 10:05 PM
I haven't played SP for a long time, but I still remember what he said when I killed him: NOO!! I shall come back and annihilate you all!!!

Sounds like Power Rangers to me.

CaptainRAVE
01-12-2005, 05:01 AM
Was it just me who found the dialogue in JA and JO really really cheesy. I guess it is Star Wars after all. The reviews never mentioned it, which they usually do for other games, which im surprised at.

Prime
01-12-2005, 08:16 AM
JA much more so than JO from what I found.

razorace
01-12-2005, 02:56 PM
chessy? Like what do you mean?

img.mediablitz
01-13-2005, 05:47 AM
The idea that there is no "good" or "evil" only the desire to gain power on whatever level was first forumlated by Nietzsche in his books "Beyond Good and Evil" and "The Will to Power". Nietzsche's ideas have been a part of american pop culture for decades now, and have formed the basis of many cardboard villans.

txa1265
01-13-2005, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by img.mediablitz
The idea that there is no "good" or "evil" only the desire to gain power on whatever level was first forumlated by Nietzsche in his books "Beyond Good and Evil" and "The Will to Power". Nietzsche's ideas have been a part of american pop culture for decades now, and have formed the basis of many cardboard villans. That was where I was going ... there is also stuff about it in Dostoevsky ...

Mike

img.mediablitz
01-13-2005, 06:45 AM
Dostoyevsky said nothing of the sort. He happens to be my favorite author. If you are speaking about Crime and Punishment, the premise is not that there is no good or evil, only the desire for power...but that there is no god, therefore all things are lawful. Raskolnikov commits murder to prove this point to himself.

txa1265
01-13-2005, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by img.mediablitz
Dostoyevsky said nothing of the sort. He happens to be my favorite author. If you are speaking about Crime and Punishment, the premise is not that there is no good or evil, only the desire for power...but that there is no god, therefore all things are lawful. Raskolnikov commits murder to prove this point to himself. And that is the thing about the Superman ... that there is a greater man that is possible because there is no god, and that the Superman defines his own boundaries according to his own design or something like that (OK, it's been nearly 20 years since I've read it ...)

But it is truly central to the work of Neitzsche and most existentialists.

Mike

Kurgan
01-14-2005, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Polychrome
This is going to sound incredibly stupid to some of you. Bear with me.

Now, at the end of the Jedi Academy game (maybe it was Jedi Outcast, haven't played either in awhile), Didn't Marka Ragnos go "There is no good or evil, only power, and those too weak to seek it"?

Oddly enough, this isn't the only place I've seen this line. It's also in the first Harry Potter book, which makes me wonder if it's a reference to something.

So, can anybody think of where this line originated? I'm just really curious. (Heck, it might have originated in HP. Who would expect a reference to it in Star Wars of all things? LOL)

I don't recall that line, but keep this in mind... NEVER TRUST THE GHOST OF AN EVIL SITH LORD!

If he indeed said that (It's been awhile since I saw both endings), it would just show he's a bit of an amoral megalomaniac. ; )

When I first saw this topic I thought maybe you were referring to Kyle's line about there being no "dark or light side" (paraphrase). While this fits somewhat with the gameplay (JA is more Dark/Light than Outcast or Mysteries of the Sith), it sounds odd coming from Kyle, a guy who's SEEN the Darkside first hand. I take it as an attempt to "gel" with that absurd character in the NJO who claimed there was no Dark or Lightside, only 'intention' or some other crap. This was supposedly superseded by the subsequent novel(s) and since it contradicts George Lucas's own vision for his story I'd say it can be safely ignored. Whew.

I mean, okay, maybe it makes Kyle look more "edgy" like he's able to use both sides of the Force, but that's a pretty cavailier attitude considering what he's been through and what a psychological blow it was for him to be tempted to the Dark Side years ago. Seems kind of odd for him to then just throw away that lesson he learned and screw up some student of his!

Sorry for the rant. But anyway, even if there was really no "Dark or Light Side" that doesn't mean that "Good"and "evil" don't exist, only that the Force isn't what we've been hearing about in the movies. It could be a neutral force, but good and evil could still exist with this "intention" stuff. Then again I don't really accept that either because someone could have good intentions but still do great evil. Am I right?

Edit: I'll admit that I haven't read Dostoyevsky (which puts me at a massive disadvantage), but you're sure he was an atheist? I thought he merely had his characters debate or make various statements about god, not that he himself didn't believe in one. Correct me if I'm wrong. Be that as it may, the existentialists pretty much assumed there was no god (or that man himself was the only god) too, so if he considered himself one that's probably safe to assume.

RpTheHotrod
01-14-2005, 09:12 AM
Don't know where it came from...but it's a common "line".

In reality, there are those who choose to abuse power, and those who choose to be responsible with the power.


and then again...those who choose to ignore the power.

Kroven
01-17-2005, 05:54 AM
what..to much heavy thinking:D just drop it:p

Kurgan
01-21-2005, 01:14 PM
Sorry, thought we were in the Senate for a second...
; )

coupes.
01-21-2005, 05:24 PM
I think he refers to Desann's line at the end of JO. It went someting along those lines :

"The force is not a shield to protect the week, but is in reality a weapon to empower the worthy."

Neverhoodian
01-21-2005, 07:30 PM
Despite what EU tries to tell you, Star Wars is a story about good vs. evil, there's just no way around that. There are many examples of how Lucas crafted the movies to make it clear who are the good guys and the bad guys. The Jungian theory of the "collective unconscious," where one instinctively knows when something is good or evil based off of what humanity as a race has experienced over the millennia, is used to great effect.

Many elements of the Empire are taken from Nazi Germany. For example, Hitler had a cadre of specialized security and paramilitary forces that were called "stormtroopers." The look of Imperial officers was modelled after WWII uniforms of German officers. Additionally, the sound a Tie Fighter's engine makes sounds a heck of a lot like the shriek of a Stuka dive bomber. Try comparing this sound (http://www.sound-effect.com/sounds/airplane/stuka.wav) (Stuka) with this sound (http://www.filmsound.org/starwars/tie.wav) (Tie Fighter) and you'll know what I mean.

Darth Maul, with his demonic horns (a trait seen in evil beings in both eastern and western mythologies) and red tatooed skin, is unquestionably evil. The fact that the Empire and the Trade Federation both have robotic or robot-like troops without a recognizable face makes them much harder to associate with than their very human Rebel and Naboo counterparts. Count Dooku's staging of an arena fight that includes fearsome, bloodthirsty beasts is an obvious sci-fi version of the Roman Colloseum, where at one point thousands of humans and animals were slaughtered every day in gruesome ways to entertain a crowd whose lust for blood became increasingly harder to satisfy. As the deceitful Neimoidians snicker with a perverse glee and the crowd cheers when Padme's back is slashed, Dooku stands like Nero, callously looking on without even a hint of guilt or remorse to the carnage below.

Color plays a big role as well. The Sith all have an angry red color for their lightsaber, while the Jedi (in the movies anyway) all have more relaxing blue and green colors. The Empire has mainly shades of gray, black, and white, whereas the Rebels usually have a friendlier color scheme of green, blue and white.

At one point in the process of making Return of the Jedi, Lucas toyed with the idea of the Battle of Endor taking place over Coruscant instead of Endor. Rather than having the final duel with Luke and Vader take place on the second Death Star, the idea was for them to fight over a huge volcanic lake far under the surface of Coruscant, while the Emperor sat in a throne overlooking the sea of magma. With all that fire and brimstone, it's hard not to draw parallels to hell itself.

This is one of the reasons why I have such a hard time with the NJO series, I suppose. After all that the movies have tried to do to persuade those who see them that there are good and evil forces at work in the galaxy, some guy writes a book that tries to debunk the whole thing. As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty obvious that there is a dark side in Star Wars, and it's undeniably bad.

El Sitherino
01-21-2005, 08:32 PM
I vote Neverhoodian receive a reward for that post. Most excellent my good sir, you have worded out all my thoughts. (creepy)

Radd
01-30-2005, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by img.mediablitz
The idea that there is no "good" or "evil" only the desire to gain power on whatever level was first forumlated by Nietzsche in his books "Beyond Good and Evil" and "The Will to Power". Nietzsche's ideas have been a part of american pop culture for decades now, and have formed the basis of many cardboard villans.

That's not entirely true. The basic idea that there is no "good" or "evil", morals being an entirely subjective form of social fiction, has existed since long before Nietzsche. Unless you follow one of the many religions that perpetuates the idea of good and evil, it's likely that this idea existed before anyone decided that there were things their fellow man ought and ought not to do.

Check out a colourful character named Hasan ibn Sabbah for one such example.

Also, many villains in American pop culture do tend to believe in good and evil, they just happen to enjoy being what they consider evil. Even this outlook on life does not preclude a cardboard villain, though. Robert Putney Drake managed to be quite complex and well thought out despite his declaration, "I aim at evil and I will achieve evil."

Shadowen
02-13-2005, 05:17 PM
Those exact words--"There is no good or evil; there is only power, and those too weak to seek it"--are taken directly from Lord Voldemort's trying to entice Harry Potter at the end of the first book and movie (Sorcerer's Stone or Philosopher's Stone, depending on where you live).

Never trust the spirit of a dead Dark wizard...

Anyway, Neverhoodian, if you actually read the NJO, you'd know that the books do not deny the existence of good or evil. But blaming the existence of evil on some quasideific being's manipulations is avoiding responsibility for those of your actions that aren't necessarily evil, and calling yourself good because you cling to dogma about an invisible superhero in the sky dehumanizes those who don't.

Good and evil exist within people, not without.