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View Full Version : Suggestions for slider for JA+ 2.3


Amidala from Chop Shop
03-06-2005, 04:06 PM
slider, I think you are on the right track with removing ampunish and amslay, and creating the "alternate dimension", so congratulations to you, good job. But I think it would be much better if you reversed the dimensions so the initial\default dimension is the "no rules" dimension and the "rules" dimension has to be actively entered. Here's why:

A new player to Jedi Academy isn't going to know about "/amaltdim" or "/refuseTele". He or she is going to join the server and start "laming" (attacking) people, because that's the way other games and the JA single-player game is played. They won't know about the "alternate dimension". The next thing that will happen is /amslap, /amsleep, /amShowMotd (if they are lucky). Then it will be up to an admin to /amForceAltDim. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll just /amkick them. Or maybe the new player will say "wtf?" and disconnect and uninstall.

Too much depends upon new players knowing commands (/amaltdim, /refuseTele) that they can't possibly know, and upon the kind and patient behavior of admins, and we already know about that.

Now imagine the reverse: the default dimension is the "no rules" dimension, so new players joining the server are automatically in that dimension. They don't have to know about "/amaltdim", and no admin has to put them in the "no rules" dimension because they are already there. Anyone who wants to follow "no laming" rules simply does "/amaltdim" as soon as they join the server. If a new player wants to join the other players in the "no laming" dimension, that is a perfect time for an admin to explain the server rules, and then if the new player agrees to the rules they are allowed to change dimensions.

The "no rules" dimension would serve as the "lobby" for the server, and the "no laming" dimension would be entered only by players who know about "/amaltdim" (which will soon be common knowledge among the believers in "no laming") or new players brought in with "/amForceAltDim" after agreeing to the "no laming" rules.

You have said you want positive suggestions and constructive criticism. I hope you can ignore the source of these suggestions, because we both want this next version of JA+ to succeed with what it is trying to do.

Jamps
03-06-2005, 05:05 PM
I was going to suggest to him to remove everythign except amkick and amban (because thats all you really need to stop people)

But your suggestion also works i guess.

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-06-2005, 05:40 PM
Well, slider has come up with a creative solution to the real players vs. "no laming" problem: two "parallel universes" on the same server.

Dueler's Mod had something similar: while waiting to duel, players could "FFA" but the points wouldn't count. When two players started to duel, all of the other players on the server became invisible and couldn't affect the duelers in any way, and the duelers couldn't affect the other players. Then when the duel was over, the other players would magically become visible again, and the players could go back to FFA until the next duel began.

slider's two dimension setup creates two parallel universes in the same server. Players can cross between dimensions, but players in one dimension can't attack players in the other. The "alternate" dimension is supposed to be a place to send "lamers" instead of abusing or kicking them. The "alternate dimension" is supposed to have "competitive" settings and admin commands don't function there.

This is a clever idea, but the flaw is that new players joining the server will end up in the "wrong" dimension by default, where they are subject to rules they don't know or don't believe in, and are subject to amslap and amsleep. It would be perfect if the "default" dimension was the competitive dimension, and the "no laming" dimension had to be willfully entered or was "by invitation only".

If you did it that way you wouldn't even need amslap or amsleep. If a troublemaker intentionally entered the "no laming" dimension to break rules, they could be forced back into the "no rules" dimension. If they disconnected, reconnected, and did it again, then you would know you had a real jerk on your hands, not some poor innocent person who just didn't know what "no laming" means. Then kickban would be completely appropriate.

Tinny
03-06-2005, 09:20 PM
This is awesome, not only does it solve the problem, but sifiting through parallel universes on the same server??? Chrono Crossage :D

Slider744
03-07-2005, 02:06 AM
Amidiala, if you played JA+ you would know that i thought to new player...
i am always amazed to see you speaking about plenty of thigns you even don't know (i don't intend to flame just also a suggestion )

first now the admin cmd in JA+ are not abusable any more because of the way they are coded (Ful protection of player, timer on admin cmds, amtele protection...etc...)

Secondly, when a player is slept or any other cmds, he is warned that he can go in the alternate dimension typeing into console /amAltDim (it will be also available through menu)

the same for amtele, he will be warned that he can type /RefuseTele.....

In the final version of the mod, all will be configurable...
You will be able to say that the alternate dim is the default dimension to join the server, or remove the alt dim,

the reason why the alt dim is the dimension for NO rules is because most FFA server in basejka, JA+, or any other mod are often RPG no laming server....

This alt dim only work in FFA as other gametype can be only competitve (admin cmds don't work in comptetive gametype)

SO in the frist dim, you can put the rules you want (no rules, no laming, rpg...etc...) but in all cases it remains an alternate dim that will be always competitive and no rules....
in the final version, the alter dim will have the separate forceregen used for duels (jp_duelforceregen) in order to have a more competitive alt dim

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-07-2005, 05:25 AM
Thanks for your reply slider. Actually I have downloaded and installed the two most recent betas on my home computer and tested the first beta, and I have been following the development on your forum, so I am familiar with the latest changes.

I understand that most "FFA" servers have "no laming" rules and that is where most of the players will be, so I understand why some people would want to make that the "primary" dimension and the "competitive" dimension the "alternate" dimension.

But looking at it from the perspective of a totally new player to JA multiplayer (even if they are veterans of other games) it would be more logical to make the first dimension that a player enters when joining the server the "competitive" dimension, and the "no laming" dimension the "restricted" dimension (i.e. no "laming" allowed). Players who follow the "no laming" rules would simply /amaltdim as soon as they entered the server. You could probably make it so that if the player has the JA+ client plug-in installed they would automatically go to the "no laming" dimension. It would be likely that someone who prefers "no laming" would have the client installed, and a new player wouldn't.

By setting it up this way, the "no laming" players would immediately go to the "correct" dimension (either automatically or with /amaltdim), and the new players would automatically be in the "competitive" dimension where they don't run the risk of breaking rules that they don't understand. They wouldn't have to be amslept and told to enter a command in the console. They wouldn't have to do anything.

You overestimate the knowledge level of the new players. You assume they know how to open the console and enter commands. Many of them don't know how to do that. Read your logs, you will find entries like this:


Padawan: what was that command to see arms chopped off?
Vet: /set cg_dismember 2
Padawan: /set cg_dismember 2
Vet: no, not in chat, enter it in the console
Padawan: what?
Vet: open the console and enter it there
Padawan: what is the console and how do I open it?
Vet: shift and tilde
Padawan: what? what's tilde?
Vet: that key next to 1, press shift and tilde
Padawan: OK
Padawan: what was that command again?
Vet: .......


and so on.

By making the first dimension a new player enters the "no laming" dimension, you pretty much guarantee there will be a lot of amsleeping and amslapping going on when you look at all of the JA+ servers as a whole (yes, I know the commands have flood restriction, I'm talking about the aggregate total). You pretty much guarantee the new players will have to go through the unpleasant experience of being amslept and told to do something that many of them don't know how to do. Maybe instead of amslap and amsleep those commands should just be replaced with /amForceAltDim.

I know your preference is to make it "totally configurable" and leave it up to the server operator, but based on past experience we know what will happen, just as they rarely change jp_antiAdmAbuseTimer from 0 (off). It would be great if you would set some value other than 0 in the sample JA+ server.cfg so that feature would actually get used.

Left to default values, server operators will make the "main" dimension the "no laming" dimension, and the "alternate dimension" the "lamer's dimension". New players will join and end up in the "wrong" dimension, and start "laming" because they didn't understand what "No laming" in the MOTD means. An admin will immediately amslap then amsleep them. They will be told to enter a command in the console and they won't know how to do that. The admin and people on the server will say "lol, haha, what a n00b". The humiliated kid's character will be immobilized on the floor while everyone laughs at him and calls him a noob. He'll disconnect, uninstall, and Jedi Academy will have lost another player.

It would be so much better if the new players ended up by default in the "competitive" dimension first. Then there would be time to explain the rules to them, and how to open the console etc. without having to amsleep them first. They would be allowed to join the majority of the players in the "exclusive" dimension only after they understood and agreed to the rules. It would be like they would have to show they were "worthy" before they joined the majority of the other players in the "exclusive" alternate dimension. The players in the exclusive, alternate dimension will never be "lamed" because only people who know how to get into the alternate dimension will be there. If people make the "no laming" dimension the default dimension, they will be exposed to "laming" at all times.

Again, I really support what you are trying to do, but I think that the way things are going to play out is going to defeat what you are trying to accomplish. Your alternate dimension is a very good idea, but as they say, the devil is in the details.

DruggedSith
03-07-2005, 07:16 PM
Slider you cater more to the E-raging server admin who believes himself a deity, not new players who are beaten into submission because an errant saber throw decapitated a clan member.

You seriously have put no thought into any of your admin features and while I give you credit for trying to work things out now the damage has already been done and this game is just waiting for Death to lower the scythe.

Even your non abusive supporters have begun to move on to greener pastures leaving behind the worst of the honor admins.

Ami may still feel it worthwhile to get you to change certain aspects of your mod but I know it is a waste of time trying to convince you of doing anything good with what is left of this game.

Nokill
03-08-2005, 09:05 AM
i won't mangle myself into this anymore it will go on forever :o

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-10-2005, 02:44 AM
Sorry I have to respond to slider here, but if I debate him in his own forum he will probably delete the posts\thread and ban me, as he has done to others who criticize JA+ "too much"

Originally posted by slider in his forum
Moreover i don't want my mod to be used to make fun with "so called lamers"....(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)

you have the right to manage your server as you want because you are the owner but you must not loose the thought that players have also rights...
on this last point, yes sure, you can always say that players can disconnect if they disagree with the way you are using JA+...(and uninstall after they go to 10 other JA+ servers that abuse players in the same way)
But the problem is for new players (on this point i agree Amidala even if i totally disagree most of her opinion and the way she is trying to imposing her opinion with a fanatic way)....(I can't impose my opinion on anyone, slider, because I can't ampunish-amslap-amsleep-amslay-amtele-ammindtrick people the way anti-laming "fanatics" using your mod do to impose their way of playing on people. Those are the real "fanatics")

The new players may be degusted of playing JA when they are threaten as lamers or humilated by those cmds that make you sometimes laugh to use them ...(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)
new player even don't know what is laming..... amshowmotd and amforcealtdim will learn them...ampunish will make them wanting to disturbing more your server...
Sure those cmds can be used in a good way...( :rolleyes: )
But i know there is a lot of admins that are not aware of those problems...(c'mon slider, not only are they aware, they are doing some of the abusing and are the same ones complaining about some of their powers being taken away)

I often see that those bad admins are not the main server admins....(How do you know that? And what difference does it make to the player who is being abused and humiliated?) they are just player who just want have fun amslaying people when the main admins is not there....at the end it will make your server empty...(make not just their server empty but ALL servers empty by driving players out of this game, as they have been doing since the first version of JA+ came out)
and i am sure that you don't want to play alone amslaying yourself....


Finally because i think those bad admins are hurting the JA community and more generally the Way i wanted JA+ to be used, i was forced to rework on the admin system...(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)

I want to clarify things, JA+ was and will stay a powerfull tool to manage and control totally your server with the same efficiency as before...(for all you control freaks and "fanatics" out there)

A big power often include a big responsability...
JA+ is a tool that make your server more powerfull in control and options..... you can control everything and set on/off what you want...(and they want to have more power over everyone else on the server, rather than just getting good at the game, so they turn all the worst features on, of course)

But a powerfull tool is also at the same time a powerfull weapon that can make hurt more than good things when not well used....(wait, when we told you all of this a year and a half ago you didn't listen to us and said JA+ was just like a "kitchen knife". Now you finally realize it's a powerful and destructive weapon? *claps hands*)

i often see too many server leader giving admin right to bad and immature admins.....(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)

This tought made me thing of a new JA+ solution in order to learn admins how the new concept of alternate dimension is powerfull and can replace the old amslay and ampunish cmds...

THe 2.3 version of the mod will be a total new mod in all directions : new way of controlling the servers emphazing all kind of players satisfactions instead of punishing unwanted players, new moves , new attacks, so new gameplay new diversity of technics that you will be able to learn to your padawans, new nice effects....etc....(if only you had done this a year and a half ago before countless players were driven out of the game by the club and boot of ampunish-amslap-amslay-etc.)

At the beginning of the JK series, all players were playing as in Quake3 engine and UT...etc....so kill kill kill...
the word lamer was even inexisting......(In other words, they played the game normally by the real rules, the way every other similar game is played)

Then the notion of honour and RPG began to appear...It was a real revolution in online gaming which gave to the JK series an ethernal feeling that no other game will have...(If by "ethereal" you mean silly and ridiculous, I agree with you)
The Honour thing was directly inspired by the movies....(That's your opinion, where is your proof? In my opinion and the opinion of others, it was invented by mediocre or worse players who wanted some way of reducing the number of times they were slaughtered by more competent players playing the game by the real rules)
At the same time, you never have a new thing without this exact opposite in life...
when honour appeared in the JK series, also the dishonour and bad behaviour appears....
this is like the the good against the evil..., the sith Vs the jedi.....
hehe funny paralell ^^

at the same time, a lot of clan were using ffa to make training and teaching their padawan...(No, they wanted to duel and were too impatient to wait their turn on real Duel servers)
group of people organized in academy began to appear.... (So like in the movies)...
Then some mods began to support those concepts in order to reinforce server rules of no laming because laming disturb teaching ereas in a servers...(seta g_password "password" accomplishes the same thing with no need for abusive admin mods)
You began to see a lot of admin cmds that can give you a total power on people but it was most of time well used...so No problem at all....(not true, ask any JK2 vet)
those so called admin began to feel as yoda or council members like in the movies who punish bad jedi or awards the good jedi....(so like in the movies)....( :rolleyes: )

but with the time, this admin power (similar to the forces for jedi) began to increasingly corrupt good admins...(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)
some of them became more and more in JEdi academy series dark admin or sith admins....(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)
the problem is that the admin powers are too powerfull for sith admins.....and i see increasingly this sith admin bahaviour contamine good jedi admins (we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)....(staying in the movie similitud)....
so the good jedi admins are more and more going to the dark side of the admin powers (we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)....killing more and more the best fun and the best gameplay that you can have playing this game...(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, BUT YOU DIDN'T LISTEN!!)

JA+ needs to now to give a reboost to good admins showing the way of the ligth side with /amforcealtdim...(After all the destruction caused by people using your mod, too little too late)
Easy is the darsk side, quicker it is but more powerfull is the light side....
Easier and quicker is to use ampunish, but more powefull is to use amforcealtdim....

ampunish will make you become bad and dark admin or even sith admin whereas amforcealtdim will make you learning to comeback on the light side of the admin power becoming good jedi admins....


at the same time if we report those admin considerations to the not admin players ....., it will reinforce real ffa players instead of enforcing only the no laming players....(After all the destruction caused by people using your mod, too little too late. Virtually all of the real players have already been driven out, and new players are STILL being driven out every day)


The diversity in a game is immportant....this is nice to have in the same game both real gamer as well as honour guy...
this is quite uniq in the JK series...(Because all other games would never put up with silly people "amsitting" on servers, chatting, and sticking grapplehooks up each other's butts, much less punishing people for simply playing the game by the real rules. You look foolish trying to make something silly and stupid look "noble")
This diversity make the game more powerfull and give to the game a uniq feeling that no other game has...(JA+ servers have exterminated all the diversity out of the FFA servers. They are virtually all saber-only and "no laming")
the too big admin power often not well used tend to decrease the real gamer community....and this is not good for the whole community....(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)
this diversity is important beacause it make the game more powerfull...(and by spending all of your time until just recently catering to the honor noobs at the expense of the real players, you, more than anyone else, are responsible by eliminating the diversity that you now at this late date claim is so important. That's a type of hypocrisy.)

and this is more true if this diversity exists in a server...
the alternate dimension things enable to have this diversity on your seerver because you will have all kinds of players...
real gamer as well as rpg honour players....
I personnly like to give courses to my padawan......(seta g_password "password" accomplishes the same thing with no need for abusive admin mods)
i also like to recives courses from my master......(seta g_password "password" accomplishes the same thing with no need for abusive admin mods)
but i also like to have real ffa...(Full weapon, full Force, default Force regeneration, no cheap grapplehooks and jetpacks, and no "honor" rules FFA? Riiiiiight. I would pay to see you playing that, lol)

this alternate dimension will allow players to play both side without beeing obliged to change server...

JA+ is therefore trying to reinforce the balance between good admin and bad admins...(Why should there be a "balance" between good and bad admins. There shouldn't be any bad admins in the first place)
you can see it as a better balance between lamers and honours players or a better balance between real ffa players (often called lamers) and rpg honour no laming players....(Too bad real FFA players have already been driven out of this game by ampunish, etc.)

If the real ffa players diseappear this is like a galaxy without Jedi or a galaxy witouh sith....(the star wars movies would even not exist... lol ^^)^(Um, what do you mean "if" real FFA players disappear? Your mod was the main tool used to make that happen)
the sith need to keep alive as well as jedi...

this is like in the movies... :)(um, slider, this is an ACTION-FIRST PERSON SHOOTER GAME, not a movie)

in Ep1 jedi are omnipresent and control everything and they ban and punish bad jedi....
in EP2, the more bad jedi are punished the more the sith univers is growing...
in EP3 : the sith take the advantage over jedi...until EP6 were the jedi take again the power...

let me continue the similitud....
in JK1 the real player community is omnipresent (real players are often said as "lamers" later in the JK series) in JK1, the Honour rpg begins to appear...
in jK2, the honour things is growing more and more at the same time with the need to have secure zones to make trainings to your padawan in your academy group of people...(seta g_password "password" accomplishes the same thing with no need for abusive admin mods)
at the middle of JK2 and the whole beginning of JK3, the honour guy take the advantage punishing and forcing everybody to play like they want on theirs server...(we told you that would happen when JA+ first came out, but you didn't listen)
but the time has turned and now JA+ will try to give a better balance between all kind of players in order not give the advantage to one type of gaming....(Too bad you didn't do this a year and a half ago. Too little too late)

both type of gaming need to co-exist in harmony in order to have the best powerfull game...
And this is the goal of this innovative alternage dimension....

like the sith dimension and jedi dimension...
they must keep existing with the same power ....

-------------------------------------------------------------
hehe well


but this said don't take too much seriously my explication

it was a funny thought in my mind....


PS: private joke, i know Amidala will read it ^^^so Amidala i hate the way your are thinking..... you neeed to becomre more open minded...(Wow, you're smug AND condescending. You're kidding, right? Just because I know right from wrong doesn't mean I'm not open-minded. Just because I don't agree with your ideas doesn't mean I'm not open-minded. :rolleyes: )

perhaps the way the admin cmds are coded since JK2 made you become like you are today....^^^( hehe let's continue the anologie with the movie) (Yes slider, do tell me how I am, you know me so well *adds "presumptuous" to "smug" and "condescending"*)

the extreme honour things wildspread in all the community make the real gamer become as jerk ^^^(Define "jerk". You mean abusing and humiliating kids for playing a video game the "normal" way? Not guilty. You mean pointing out how the abuse and silliness on JA+ servers has destroyed this game? Guilty, and not ashamed, either)

perhaps JA+ will let you come back to your real nature ^^^ :
a better open minded real player that do not bash everything like a jerk ^^(No thanks slider. If using JA+ and conforming to your narrow idea of being "open-minded" is the only way to avoid you calling me a "jerk", I'd rather you call me a jerk. And I only criticize ("bash") things that richly deserve to be criticized ("bashed") like pre-2.3 versions of JA+ mod)

RPG vs Honour is not a reality nor a fatality

I think a lot of people like to play both of gaming (honour and real game) it depends on the moment.(Another unsupported opinion. Where is your evidence? I know the players who like real FFA and CTF don't go near almost-everything-disabled JA+ "honor" servers, and "honor" players who come to real FFA and CTF servers don't last more than 15-20 minutes, most of which is spent being killed over and over again, whining "stop laming!", "fight me with a saber you pussy", and "too many gun noobs here" before leaving with their tail between their legs. Your "lots of people like both" theory just isn't true. They are a minority. Honor players like those rules because it's safe and easy. Real players don't like "honor" servers because they are boring, silly, and abusive. Honor players don't like real servers because they get killed frequently and playing that way is challenging and isn't easy. Real players like it because they kill frequently and playing that way is challenging and isn't easy)

perhaps people need to understand that servers must not be put in a category...
the alternate dimension will highlight this things enabling the possibility of playing both type of the game.....





finally there is no jedi vs sith,
there is just the force with many way to use it....the diversity of use make the hamorny and the balance of the force

there is not honour vs real gamer,
there is just the game with many way to play it and the diversity of the way people play it make the harmony and the force of this JK series.

(Let's all /amsit in a circle, hold hands, and sing "Kumbaya" :rolleyes: )


Like I said earlier slider, I'm glad you are finally making your mod less abuse-prone. Too bad you didn't do this a long time ago. Unfortunately, after all of the destruction to this game caused by people using the tools you gave them in JA+ mod (as described by you yourself above), it's too little, too late.

cHoSeN oNe came to the same realization, too late to save JK2. You have also come to the same realization, too late to save JA.

Now, before the next Jedi Knight game comes out (if there ever is one) and is destroyed in the same way, can we all agree that abusive commands have no place in these games, and only end up destroying it??

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Slider744
03-10-2005, 08:39 AM
AMidala why don't you awnser on my forum

i only removed and ban flaming topics and flaming people....

***JOKE**** => ha yes i know why
perhaps you forgot all the logins you created to bash the mod in the various forums you go?
perhaps you forgot your passwords with all those logins lol
perharps you don't want me to see your IP because i will be able to detect you with all your logins..... hehe ......


Well amidala i keep convinced you are not open minded....

First JKA is not destroyed,
the community is still there
and the dev community with mappers, skinners , modelers, movie mainers ...etc... is still there...
thanks to the dev community the game is still up because it destroy the monotony ....

Only the changes make people keep in the community.....

On another hand if you would be right saying all JA+ server are honour servers, this change will give a reboost in the way it will make pople play with another way....
and the change is good because this is like playing another game with another way....

Amidala you keep convinced there is a fight between honoour vs real gamer...

this is not true....
i know a lot of JA+ server where this is alll the taime real gaming and no rules of antilaming set...
i also see a lot of basejjka servers with hnour rules
i also see some opther mods with honour rules

the honours and real gamer are in all server and play with all mods....
this is a fact the ho,our thing is in the JK series since JK1 and amsit is coded by lucasart since JK2... ^^
this is even in duel basejka servers without the need of amsit...

emots does not mean honour
you are false on a lot of things

you want to much to put people or server or mods in a category

tyhis is not back or white it can be also grey or all the variety of colors between back and white...
you have to understand that most people like to play both type of gaming (real gaming and honour gaming)

you are also wrong on your "the game was meant to be played like it is writen in the manual""

AMidala a game is game...
when a person buy it and buy a server to play this game with a group of people... they are allowed to play the game like they want....this is their game and their server
and not yours....

when you buy a LEGO, you can build the object from the plan but also can use all the pieces to build what you want....

JA+ is a LEGO with many pieces and option to build the server you want....
you always say that people let the server.Cfg like that wihout touching it.....

you would be surprised how the JA+ users like to change all things in my mod...
JA+ learnt them to do that and change what they want....
and they therefore change what they want....

when they change all the damages, they do it because they like it...
when they remove some of the features of JA+, this is because they don't like it....etc.....

admins are not stupid amidala....
this is not JA+ the responsible of hnour things...
the honour and RPG things is in the JK series since JK1....

as it was the only game to provide such things inspired ffrom the movie with academy and council members....etc... a lot of mod wanted to reinforce thing thing.....
now that too much people play like that....
this is nice to change and give a reboost to another type of gaming (real gaming)
but without loosing RPG and hnour because this is fantastic to create relationship with friends in a academy playing the game in RPG context...

first you are padawan, you have a msters then you make tests to have a better ranks in the academt until you are allowed to have padawans....
etc....

i know you think this is silly but that is your point of view and only the point of view of a category of people that don't like it.....
but there is also a lot of people that like it.....

the server i used to play and play nowadays are servers with RPGs things and RPG events......
wen oprganized scenario as if it was a movies
and each person have a role to play....

this is veyr fun also....
but i also like real gaming at the same time....
and there are always fun real gaming zone on maps for that.....

each player like both execpt some integrist players like you amadala who things that this is silly becayse they don't like it....

you don't like it so this is silly ==> this is the way you think....

this is egoist and not open minded..

JA+ is a poweffull tool but as i said all powerful tools after a time finish to be used in a bad way or exploited by a category of bad people.....
but this is the same with basejka nad any other mods.....

i was kicked many times by admins on basejjka server just becaused i beat them in private duel....

You see amidala i awnser to your topics without quoting every single word...

YOu repeated in your topics in red sentences many times the same things for nothings

one time is enough and more efficient....
Amidala stop hidding yourselff under fake identity
dare posting on my forums with ONE LOGIN (yours) and not all your fake login i see on various forums which are at the evidence the same person.

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-10-2005, 11:25 AM
slider, I have only one account on every forum where I am registered. Your forum is the only one where I don't use Amidala in my user name, because I know several people who were banned from your forum for criticizing JA+, and I know you would love to do the same thing to me. Don't kid yourself that all the criticism of JA+ you see is really only one person (me) with multiple accounts. Those are all real people, many of whom have posted in this forum.

Not only have you said that other critics are really me, you even accused me of really being =X=MasterHex :rolleyes: I almost thought you were losing your grip on reality for awhile.

And slider, I had to quote your post here because it was made in your forum and otherwise people wouldn't know what you said or what I was talking about.

The community of modders, mappers, skinners, etc. (God bless them) is small and getting smaller all the time. Compared to other similar games, the number of servers and players is small, and much less than it should be with an ACTION-FIRST PERSON SHOOTER GAME based in the popular Star Wars universe. The abusive "honor" servers have given Jedi Academy a reputation in the gaming world as a game full of chatty, whiny, abusive crybabies who actually make fun of people who use the weapons (guns and explosives) found in every other game. Because of that, veterans from other games won't go near Jedi Knight games, which they might otherwise enjoy and help to keep the game alive. JA+ is the most popular tool that the abusive, chatty, whiny crybabies use to impose their tyranny on their servers.

You say "i know a lot of JA+ server where this is alll the taime real gaming and no rules of antilaming set..." Besides your CTF server and Padamon's two pwn servers, name some JA+ servers with real gaming and without "laming" rules. List some please. Should be easy if there are "a lot" of them.

You also say "i also see a lot of basejjka servers with hnour rules". Name some please. Give some examples.

You keep stating you "know a lot" of servers that are this or that, but you never list them. Go ahead, lets see some names and IP addresses. Everyone here who is playing or who has actually played the game knows what you are saying is nonsense, so prove us wrong by listing "a lot" of servers that "you know". Otherwise, quit making that ridiculous claim if you can't back it up.

You keep saying that "most people like to play both honor\RPG and real gaming". That's just nonsense. Where is your evidence? Yes, there are some people who play both, like you claim you do (how much time have you played on your own "real gaming" CTF server? As little time as I play, I have probably logged more minutes on that server than you have), but most "honor\RPG" players tend to stay on those servers because:

[list=1]
They are mostly interested in dueling, chatting, and fooling around with grapplehooks
They absolutely HATE guns and think "only noobs use guns"
They think "the Force is cheap and noobish" as so many of them say in forums and on full-Force servers like mine
They like hiding behind the "no laming" rules because they would get slaughtered over and over without those rules
They like "no laming" rules because it justifies the existence of "admins", who so many of them want so desperately to be
[/list=1]

Most real players stay away from "honor\RPG" servers because they are:

[list=1]
Boring. No guns, no explosives, almost no Force powers on most of them. People are standing or sitting around chatting, with a few no-Force saber duels here and there. Yawn.
Silly. People shooting grapplehooks up each others butts while chatting about their dogs and homework. Why don't they do that on AIM, MSN Messenger, or at least The Sims Online for goodness sakes :rolleyes:
Abusive, as you yourself described above. Not only are people abused from breaking server rules, but also for having the wrong name, beating some clan member in a duel, or just because the admin is bored, wants to show off his "powers", or is "having a bad day".
[/list=1]

You keep saying "most like to play both ways" and it just isn't true. Just because you and a few others claim to like both doesn't mean "most" do.

slider, this game isn't a Lego set. Lego isn't a game, it's a toy, can't you tell the difference? Jedi Academy is a game, like chess, checkers, poker, bridge, croquet, basketball, etc. Games have official rules. Do people play basketball and say "no shooting baskets is allowed"? Do they they slap and punish other players for shooting baskets and playing by the official rules?

So you were kicked from base servers for winning duels. That's unfortunate. Can you imagine how much worse you have made it by giving admins the ability to amslap-amsleep-ampunish-amslay-amtele players before kicking them? Why on earth did you give people even more ways to behave badly?

I'm glad you are finally realizing that the things we warned you were going to happen a year and a half ago when you first released JA+ mod have happened just as we predicted they would happen. We went through this before with JK2, and we didn't want it to happen again to JA. We warned you and pleaded with you to not put abusive commands in your mod, but YOU weren't "open-minded" enough to listen to US. Now that you can no longer ignore the truth, you are finally taking SOME of the abusive commands out.

Unfortunately, it is too little, too late. Way to go, slider.

Slider744
03-10-2005, 12:19 PM
you see can make a anwser without quoting every single workds

i applaude ^^

Slider744
03-10-2005, 12:27 PM
no amidlala lol n it is not too late
look the number of JA+ with JA+2.3beta2...
you will be surprised ^^

and also, only silly people never change their minds^^^^, and i will always stay convinced of this idea ^^ it was a joke......

amidala i am enough open minded to understand all real gamer wills and all rpg wills ......
i say that since the beginning ....

but you amidala, are you enough open, minded to recognize that Hnour is not silly in this game?

if you don't want to recognize it, it means you lack something (for me this is the open minded spireit which you lack of)

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-10-2005, 01:55 PM
slider, as I said, I hope all JA+ servers upgrade to 2.3, although some won't because they just love ampunishing and amslaying too much. But even if all JA+ servers switched to 2.3, it still won't undo all the damage caused by the abusive commands in JA+ mod versions 1.0-2.2. Too many people have been driven away, never to return.

Do you think all of the people still playing Quake III and CounterStrike have been playing since the first days those games came out? No, of course not. But those games have stayed alive and popular because as veteran players leave, new players come to take their places. And, the new players aren't abused and humiliated for playing the game the "normal" way.

Those games are older than Jedi Academy but they are still alive and vital. It's because players aren't amslapped and told to "go play UT2K4" or "go play Jedi Academy if you just want to chat and whine".

But for the past year and a half, JA+ servers have been using abuse and humiliation to drive off the new players that Jedi Academy and any game needs to stay alive.

slider, look at the activity on this forum. It used to be busy and active. Look at it now. Good job.

If the majority of the servers were "normal" or "real gaming" and there were a few servers where people disabled almost everything and sat around and chatted, no one would care. If there were some servers where people put a password on the server so their pretend Padawan training sessions weren't interrupted, no one would care. If they were a strange, weird minority of the servers, no one would care.

But slider, you and your mod have created a world that is upside-down. The servers that are normal and play by the real rules are a tiny fraction of all servers, and are empty because almost all of the real players have been driven off during the past year and a half since your mod came out. The few survivors are taking refuge in CTF and Movie Battles II, but without a stream of fresh new players, they are dying off too. All that is left (especially on JA+ "FFA" servers) are the chatting, dueling, whining "honor" players.

Your mod has made things totally upside-down and unbalanced. And bragging about how "open-minded" you are and how much you enjoy playing both ways isn't going to change what people using your mod have done to this game the past year and a half. You spent all of your time up until now catering to the abusive honor noobs, until they are virtually all that is left. It's too late to change that now, although I am glad you are finally doing something.

Anyone who wants a sad trip down memory lane should read this thread http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119796&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Who correctly predicted what happened, and who didn't?

Slider744
03-10-2005, 06:11 PM
amidala you are totally wrong
the number of JKA server is almost the same than the whole beginning

there were at max 800 server and there is now about 600-650...

the number of server has decreased quiclly just after several monsth to about 700 and then the decrase is very slow

since the beginning of JKA there is more honur guy than real player guy

and this is not JA+ who increased the number of honour guy...

JA+ has made no damage as in general real player are too much basejk purist that accept no modification
and therefore they mainly play basejka servers....
there are also a lot of real players in mods but more in basejka because the real player community is mainly purist that accept no modification

for a real player that you claim to be , you should know it...

JA+ has made no damage and it is even the opposite...
Always people say they would stop to play the game without the fun features of JA+

you have to see something Amidala : this is the honour gamer that make this game alive...
Indeed fo real gaming, UT quake3 or HL2 are much beter gamer in shoot them up....
therefore if there weren't any rpgn honour players in the community, there would be very few servers because real gamer prefer to play Q3 ut or HL or others

this is the hnour and rpg community that give to this game a uniq feelings that no game have
and this is this thigns that make the game alive more than real gaming....

I think this is the reason why there are more rpg players than real gamers....

the real gamers that like weapons prefer to play other games..
the real gamers that like sabers can play the game this is true....
but this is also why servers are mainly just saber and no other weapons.....

you see this is not JA+, this is how the community is.....
Stop blaming JA+ because you don't have your 2000 server with all weapons like it is in quake3

You are pathetic Admidala

without JA+ or more generally without any mods, the game would have last 6 months....
WItouh any admin mods, people that like the RPG system and they represent a big part of the community since the beginning, would have abuse with rcon quick on the lamers

the result would have been the same

SO ja+ has nthing to do with what you are blaming

Slider744
03-10-2005, 06:20 PM
your only problem Amidala is that you often can't stand the difference...

i continue to say you lack open minded spirit...
you often can't stand that people don't think like you....
i often see you speaking as a fanatic person trying to force people to think like you think....

when someone think something as soon as it does not fit you personal feelings, you immediatly say this is silly.....

Amidala the only silly person is you because you can't understand other peoples tought.........
more precisely, you can't understand that people don't think like you....
but this is the same....

Amidala you say you spent more time on my own server than me...
well lol
i don't think you can play a lot when i see all your messages in all forums....

you even take sentences in all forums you see just to be able replace them out of their context....
so you may spend a lot of time to do it
and after no time to play lol....

do you think you are credible doing like that?
NO amidala , your fanatic behaviour is not credible and also make frighten some real gamers when they hear you speaking like you speak with a totalitarian point view.....

Amidala you terribly lack maturity with the way you speak....
Dont think speaking like in TV movie showing trial is a good point.....
this is visible and many people see quickly the way you are trying to manipulate people's sentences or words.

Master William
03-11-2005, 04:18 PM
Just a quick suggestion: (haven't read all your posts by the way, so I may be repeating something, I apologize if that is the case)

Couldn't you just come up with something that forces people to update their version of JA+? Something that makes old versions unable to play, so that only the newest version can be played. Is that possible?

RpTheHotrod
03-12-2005, 06:58 PM
Slider.

I realize this is currently beta...so I have a few things to ask.


1. Will the twirl up and get stuck for 3 seconds move be able to be CLIENT SIDE deactivated? (the one where you forward, jump, attack, near someone). I friggin hate that going off.

2. Will you be touching up on the "new" kick moves? Just seems so buggy and choppy animation right now.

3. Will you be removing the free "stun" moves everyone is currently spamming over and over and over? (he raise them in air and stab, or in duels...the single/duals kick and jump in air and come down and slice away). It REALLY removes a LOT from duels. Stuns are never a good idea. It's understandable if the other person could at least attempt to get out of the way.

4. Why was single/duals given 2 new kick moves when staff was given one? Staff was originally supposed to be the only one to even get the kick ability in the first place. I don't understand why you've taken unique things from staff and gave them to others. Flipkick was the original one. Flipkick is far more effective and very easy to spam (and exploit with pull/grip)....so what's the advantage of using staff kick? Now you're giving single/duals 2 kicks.

5. Is the "everyone can kick" move going to be balanced and given to staff only? single and duals gets two, while staff gets one. If you limit to staff only, everyone gets 1 new kick.


6. Is the "everyone can kick" move going to be changed to stop after the first kick? The 2nd kick in that move is kind of pointless. You just get stuck. How about an option to stop the move immediatly after the first kick...and an option to continue starting the 2nd kick?



Also, the whole alt demension is just...annoying. You have people running around with it on and freaking people out because people think someone is trying to lame someone and then all hell breaks lose as everyone chases after someone who can't hurt or be hurt. How about giving alt dems a "dim" or something that shows they are in another deminsion. Also...people with it abuse it and annoy the crap out of others by swinging inside of them over and over and you have to take time just to be able to get them. Normally you can handle a lamer easy until they get bored and leave after being owned so much.

and on top of that, while dueling people, sometimes they have it on for some reason and my attacks just go right through them and I still take dmg from their swings.




and a bug I've found so far:

Sometimes people's sabers are completely invisible, but still do damage. I've had it happen to me personally a few times, as well.


Are you ever...going to make any moves that don't require you to be locked in place and unable to move for "some" reason?

Slider744
03-12-2005, 07:28 PM
with all the respect i have to you, before to say wrong things, you should take time to isntall the lastest version and check all you just said...

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-13-2005, 05:23 AM
slider, you are always nagging me about quoting you, when quoting is a totally legitimate feature of any forum (see there is even a http://www.lucasforums.com/images/quote.gif button), yet you frequently double-post (you did it twice in this thread). Notice there is no "make a double post" button. Instead of telling me not to quote, why don't you learn to use the http://www.lucasforums.com/images/edit.gif button instead of double-posting. Thanks. :rolleyes:

As long as you are going to double-post, I'm going to keep quoting :p

Originally posted by Slider744
amidala you are totally wrong
the number of JKA server is almost the same than the whole beginning

there were at max 800 server and there is now about 600-650...



No slider, you are totally wrong. According to the All Seeing Eye, tonight there are 489 servers, 308 of which are totally empty (not even any bots). Qtracker shows more servers, 582, of which 380 are totally empty. In either case there are only around 200 servers that aren't totally empty, and many of those have only bots in them, no humans.

Not only is the number of active servers pitifully small, but the diversity you keep claiming is so important to you isn't there. Where are the full-weapon, full-Force, "real Free For All" servers? And where are the players to play on them? I'll tell you where: driven away by the abuse, silliness, and boredom on JA+ servers, that's where.

You can't just count total servers (even though you over-estimated them) you have to look at the number that are being used. Having servers with no players does no one any good.

At least have the intellectual honesty to admit that the game is much less active than it was even less than a year ago, even though you refuse to take responsibility for JA+ mod's contribution to that decline.

Meanwhile, older games whose servers don't abuse and humiliate players for playing normally are still going strong.

Originally posted by Slider744
since the beginning of JKA there is more honur guy than real player guy

and this is not JA+ who increased the number of honour guy...

JA+ has made no damage as in general real player are too much basejk purist that accept no modification
and therefore they mainly play basejka servers....
there are also a lot of real players in mods but more in basejka because the real player community is mainly purist that accept no modification

for a real player that you claim to be , you should know it...


You are probably right, in the beginning there probably were more "no laming" players than "real" players. And what did your mod do? It made an unbalanced ratio even more unbalanced! Not so much by increasing the number of "honour guys" as you call them, although that did happen because naive, gullible, inexperienced new players went to "no laming" servers and were coerced and brainwashed ("stop laming!" "don't lame" "only noobs lame!"), but mostly by providing the means to abuse, humiliate, and drive the "real players" out of the game.

So what started as maybe a 60\40 ratio of "no lamers" to real players is now, what, 90\10? If you really cared about "diversity" as much as you claim, you should have been trying to strengthen the real\competitive side of the community, instead of giving the "honor" side the tools to become even more dominant.

JA+ servers didn't affect real players directly, because JA+ was\is rarely used outside of "no laming" servers. But servers using it drove off the new players who might have become real or competitive players. Even "honor" players got sick of the abuse and use of empowerment when they went to other servers, and they were driven off too, like former JA+ fan [SSC]NuTinmuch:

Originally posted by [SSC]NuTinmuch]
First, let me introduce myself.

I used to run a clan called [SSC] or the Silent Storm Clan. We were one of the first clans in JKA, and lasted a year and a few months. I (And the rest of my clan) left JKA sometime in November for tons of reasons, most notable the decline of the community.

Ever since I have been in this "community" (JK2 Included) I have been with the "Honor" + "No Lame" people. I have argued against people like Amidala time and time again. In JK2 I started out in a clan called JHC (Jedi Honour Clan) and in JKA I decided to make my own clan. (SSC)

In JKA I adopted this very mod. I loved it. I loved it so much that I even hosted Slider/JA+'s first website/forum. It was hosted right on my clan board and I gave slider everything he needed. I really thought this mod was the future. Boy was I wrong.

I can honestly say that this mod has ruined JKA.

My clan (SSC) did not abuse the admin commands given... (We only used it for the banning commands and clan talk) so I never thought there was a problem. We were a big clan (40+ members) so the server was always full. I never had to leave. Near the end when we were getting bored of the game, I and others left our server. To say the least I was horrified.

In all truth, the only server I wasn't banned from was the Chop Shop disruption server, and clans that where friendly to us.

However, the honor code in this mod isn't the only "bad" thing.

Slider is reluctant to admit his mistakes/bad coding. Ever since 1.7 there was a command I think amchange or something like that where you could change your saber from single to staff and visa versa. Me and my clan mates where playing with this one day when we discovered this lagged the server. (This was before it was a widely known thing). After some simple scripting we managed to make a script that when executed, would crash the server in a few seconds. It worked on every server we tested it on, and should have been considered a major threat. It took Slider up to one of the latest releases to fix this, and surprisingly enough, you can still use it on some servers!

I could go on and on about things like this, but I won't.



Whether naive newbies, veterans from other games, or even "honour guys", servers with and users of JA+ mod have driven untold numbers of players out of this game, never to return. You don't have to agree or admit it slider, because it doesn't make it any less true. Everyone in this forum knows it (and so do you, if you are truly "open-minded").

And slider, I don't just "claim" to be a real player, I am. Always have been, always will be. Maybe not the greatest player, because I don't have much time to play, but 100% real nonetheless.

Originally posted by Slider744
JA+ has made no damage and it is even the opposite...
Always people say they would stop to play the game without the fun features of JA+

slider, the only people who say that are the sycophants, ring-kissers, and admin-abusers who hang out in your forum. They know that posts and threads that are critical of JA+ or you are deleted and the people who posted them are never seen there again (banned). Of course they love amslapping, amslaying, and look how much they are whining about losing only two of their precious abuse commands. Of course those people love grapplehooks and jetpacks, they are crutches that help them think they are actually good players.

You are right, if a lot of JA+ users couldn't ampunish-amslap-amslay-amsleep-ammindtrick-amghost-amtele-amempower, and actually had to play without crutches like grapplehooks and jetpacks, they probably would stop "playing".

Originally posted by Slider744
you have to see something Amidala : this is the honour gamer that make this game alive...
Indeed fo real gaming, UT quake3 or HL2 are much beter gamer in shoot them up....

How would you know? Actually, the Jedi Knight games, when played to their fullest as they were designed to be played are some of the best action-first person shooter games ever made. Ask anyone who has actually played all of them. It's not that UT2K4, Q3, or Half-Life are better games, it's it's the players and communities that are so much better. The mediocre players, chatters, whiners, and wannabes know that they will not only be accepted in JA, they will actually be the majority, whereas in other games they wouldn't last 10 minutes if they acted like that.

And yes, now that the users of JA+ have driven away most of the real players, they are all that is keeping this game alive. But it didn't have to be that way. We can thank you, JA+ mod, and the people who used and abused it for that.

Originally posted by Slider744
therefore if there weren't any rpgn honour players in the community, there would be very few servers because real gamer prefer to play Q3 ut or HL or others

Again, how do you know what real gamers like to play? The only reason they wouldn't like such a great game is because of what they would encounter on most "FFA" servers, and most real gamers aren't going to put up with that. But it's not Jedi Academy's fault.

Originally posted by Slider744
without JA+ or more generally without any mods, the game would have last 6 months....

Again slider, how do you know? Are you psychic? Yes, the abusers and mediocre players might have left after 6 months, but the real players would have kept on playing, just as the CTF and Siege players are, joined by all the players who wouldn't have been driven away if JA+ mod had never existed, just as there are older games that have managed to thrive somehow without JA+ mod. It's kind of sad and scary that you actually believe what you said there.

And finally slider, do you know what an ad hominem attack is? Here, let me show you:

ad hom·i·nem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-nm, -nm)
adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

The phrase now chiefly describes an argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case: Ad hominem attacks on one's opponent are a tried-and-true strategy for people who have a case that is weak.

Ad hominem attacks are used by people who have weak arguments, so they attack the other person instead of the other person's arguments and reasoning. Examples would include:

"Amidala you are pathetic"

"perhaps JA+ will let you come back to your real nature ^^^ :
a better open minded real player that do not bash everything like a jerk ^^"

"Well amidala i keep convinced you are not open minded...."

"this is egoist and not open minded.."

"if you don't want to recognize it, it means you lack something (for me this is the open minded spireit which you lack of)"

"your only problem Amidala is that you often can't stand the difference...

i continue to say you lack open minded spirit...
you often can't stand that people don't think like you....
i often see you speaking as a fanatic person trying to force people to think like you think...."

"Amidala the only silly person is you because you can't understand other peoples tought.........
more precisely, you can't understand that people don't think like you...."

"Amidala you terribly lack maturity with the way you speak...."

and, paraphrasing, "Amidala, you quote too much".

Ad hominem attacks are a classic sign that someone has weak arguments. They can't attack someones arguments, evidence, reasoning, or logic, so they attack the person. I love when people use ad hominem attacks on me because it tells me their arguments are weak and they have little else to say.

While I have severely criticized your mod and your actions, I haven't criticized you as a person. In fact, I went out of my way to say that you are a competent programmer and probably a nice person in real life http://www.pcgamemods.com/forum/topicdisplay.php?t=95971&page=5

I don't need to use ad hominem attacks against you as you do against me, because I don't need to. My arguments are strong and sound.

So keep right on telling me I'm "pathetic" and not "open-minded" and a "fanatic". It just shows everyone who has the better arguments.

Slider744
03-13-2005, 07:06 AM
lol Amidala
you are often criticizing my person directly...
you say i am a good programmer only now since a few days lol

before you were often criticizing direcyly my person saying for example i only know how to code amkiss or i stole most of thigns......etc...


Amidala since the beginning of JKA, there are few real gamer compared to honour rpg players, without mod that reinforce honour communinity, there would be at the moment very few servers (so just the real gamer ones)

you are always speaking of the poeple that don't use JA+ in a good way but you never speak about the server that uses JA+ in a good way....
and there are a lot.
i don't know where you play, but i am rarely abused where i play....

ALso why don't you speak about all other mods that can also be used to abuse by silly admins?....

why don't you also speak about all basejka server that also may abuse for exemple the rcon kick cmd?

then to finish your strategy in only to try to find guilty to a problem that has nothing to do with JA+...
JUst because you see that JA+ is a lot used, you think JA+ is the guilty mod...
but there is no guilty mods...

if there is not a lot of real gamers compared to honour gy, this is just because the community is like that since JK1

if now the numbers has slightly decreased after 1.5 year, this just because other games have attracted more part of the gamers....

Again, i don't see how JA+ could affect real gaming community as the real real gamer accept no modifications and therefore they play only the basejka because they are purist....

there are also real gamer using JA+ and more that you think, but those kind of real gamer are a different category that in general uses very well the mod...
this category is a real gamer category but not a purist one....
For those kind of player that uses very well the mod the JA+ make no damage.....

there is also a category of player that like both honour and real gaming.....
IN general those kind of player as they like also real ffa, uses very wel the mod with no abuse.......

the real problem comes from the silly people that like to scarry people or abuse them just to fell important.....
without JA+ mod, those silly people would be as silly as they are at the moment, and they would abused in all mods even basejka ......

now amidla look at all the basejka server are empty.....
why?
they are real gamer clans.....
so why they are empty?
this is not the fault of JA+ because jA+ is even not isntalled on those server....
moreover they are empty....
so why?
it can be due to real gamers who don't want to play on those server because they are afraid of beeing abused by JA+ cmds as JA+ is even not installed on those servers....
So you see this is not the fault of JA+

perhaps if those server are empty, this is just because this clan is not as good as other clans...
perhaps the main admins do not put nice maps or nice models, or perhaps the clan mentality is not good.....
This is not the fault of JA+ if some server are empty...
this is only due to the wat the main admin or the clan leader manages his clan....
THis is even more true if JA+ is not installed on those basejka server lol

and stop quoting every single word of all people....
according to me the SSC clan server was just a clan with the leaders who didn't know how to keep their players...
they perhaps didn't manage correctly his servers....
Amidala no clan is ethernal...
this is the reality....
Please Amidala don't try to make a list of all clan that died since the beginning of JKA...... because it has nothing to do with JA+.....

Clan appear then disappear.......
and this is the case in all server whatever the mods they use....


Amidala your reasonment is simple.....
you try to list all the problem i nthe community and try to justify that it is the faul of JA+ as it is used a lot.....

perhaps you should do the same reasonment to basejka server as they are also a lot used.....

but perhaps you should only stop whinning and just understand there no guilty.....

but with your reasonment, according to me basejka is as guiltly as JA+ as they are both used a lot.......
but basejka is of course not guilty
and jA+ is not guilty

this the way the game is made that made the game with at maximum 800 servers compared to others game lwike Q3, UT, HL that have 2000 servers....

players that are atracted by JK series are not a majority and JK series is quite uniq in the gaming community.....
Weapons are not that good compared to other games...
JK series gamers are more saberist and force users...
weapons users come more to other game.....

this is a reality and stop saying this is the faulf of JA+.....
You act as a child always whinning for nothing...

Amidala you try to say you act logically....
but in reality you play on words and uses other speaking out of their context all the time.....
THis is not a logical way to say things...
this is manipulation way....

if you have the logical braind that you claim to have, learn to make mods...
it require a lot of logic....
i am sure you would be good making mod that only is like you want it to be....
SO then Amidala yo would stop whinning that this mod or this other mods or another mods is not like you want it to be.....
but maing a mod, you will relize that it will not prevent real gunner to go in UT or HL or even Q3 because they are games that are made for gunner...

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-13-2005, 11:43 AM
slider, I'm sorry, but when you make such a long, rambling post, I have to use quotes so people know which of your many points I am responding to. I'm sorry, but you leave me no choice. And how can you say that I quote you "out of context" and then also complain that I "quote every word"? That's contradictory. Everyone can read your posts to read everything in context.

Originally posted by Slider744
Amidala since the beginning of JKA, there are few real gamer compared to honour rpg players, without mod that reinforce honour communinity, there would be at the moment very few servers (so just the real gamer ones)

Again, how can you know that? How do you know what the JA and JK2 communities would have looked like without abusive admin mods like cHoSeN oNe's Jedi Academy Mod and your JA+ Mod? Yes, there would probably be fewer "no laming" servers, but that could have been compensated for by many many more "real" servers, running base games or non-abusive mods, just as there was in the early days of JK1 and JK2.

Too bad we'll never know and we never had a chance to find out.

Originally posted by Slider744
you are always speaking of the poeple that don't use JA+ in a good way but you never speak about the server that uses JA+ in a good way....
and there are a lot.
i don't know where you play, but i am rarely abused where i play....

ALso why don't you speak about all other mods that can also be used to abuse by silly admins?....

why don't you also speak about all basejka server that also may abuse for exemple the rcon kick cmd?

slider, you also said "i know a lot of JA+ server where this is alll the taime real gaming and no rules of antilaming set..." and "i also see a lot of basejjka servers with hnour rules" and I asked you to list some. We're still waiting.

Of course out of all the servers using JA+ there must be some using it in "good" way, like your CTF server and probably some others. Sure, there must be some JA+ servers that aren't abusive. That's good. No one ever said 100% of them are abusive or 0% are using JA+ in a "good" way.

But that's not the point. There are "lots" of abusive JA+ servers, as you yourself have finally realized and you are finally starting to do something about it. Too little, too late, but better late than never.

The few other mods that have abusive commands are hardly used, they are an insignificant part of the problem.

And saying you are "rarely abused" where you play misses the point. It's like saying you are "rarely robbed" or "rarely beaten up" in your neighborhood. Who would want to live in a neighborhood like that? This is a GAME, as you pointed out, it's supposed to be FUN, not a place where people are abused, even "rarely". And before you say again "well, people can be abused with rcon", then can be abused 5x more ways (amslap, ampunish, amsleep, amslay, amtele) with JA+ mod 2.2 and earlier than with rcon.

Originally posted by Slider744
if there is not a lot of real gamers compared to honour gy, this is just because the community is like that since JK1

if now the numbers has slightly decreased after 1.5 year, this just because other games have attracted more part of the gamers....

Again, i don't see how JA+ could affect real gaming community as the real real gamer accept no modifications and therefore they play only the basejka because they are purist....


slider, please make up your mind:

Originally posted by Slider744
let me continue the similitud....
in JK1 the real player community is omnipresent (real players are often said as "lamers" later in the JK series) in JK1, the Honour rpg begins to appear...
in jK2, the honour things is growing more and more at the same time with the need to have secure zones to make trainings to your padawan in your academy group of people...
at the middle of JK2 and the whole beginning of JK3, the honour guy take the advantage punishing and forcing everybody to play like they want on theirs server...

Now I see why you don't like me quoting you, it points out your inconsistent statements. But I agree with your more accurate description of history in that second quote: "honor" began as a small "cancer" in the game, and admin mods like cHoSeN oNe's and yours made the cancer bigger and spread farther with each new game. cHoSeN oNe realized and took responsibility for the damage he did, and removed most abusive commands from JA Reloaded, and you are finally doing something about the abusive commands in JA+. Both of you are too late to undo the damage that was done, but maybe some people will learn from history and we won't have to go through this again. But we probably will have to go through it again, the lure of the Dark Side (abusive commands) is too strong if they are made available to people. That's why they shouldn't be made available to people in the first place.

And I can understand why you are puzzled how abuse on JA+ servers can affect servers with basejka and other mods, so I will try to explain more clearly.

Servers, including basejka and non-JA+ mod servers, need new players to come into the game to take the place of players who tire of the game and leave. Most of these new players aren't "basejka purists", they aren't anything but just plain "new players". They don't know what "laming" is, they don't know about "basejka vs. JA+", they are just new players looking for a busy server to try out their new game. And the logical place for them to start is a busy "Free For All" server. And that means they are likely to go to JA+ "no laming" servers first. After being mistreated at those servers, many of them leave the game before they even find or try a basejka or other mod server. That's how the abuse on JA+ servers ends up hurting basejka servers, by driving away potential "real" players before they can find a server where they aren't amslapped-ampunished-amslayed-amslept-amteled into lava. I hope you can understand that.

Originally posted by Slider744
the real problem comes from the silly people that like to scarry people or abuse them just to fell important.....
without JA+ mod, those silly people would be as silly as they are at the moment, and they would abused in all mods even basejka ......

I agree with your first statement, but not your second one. Without JA+ mod 2.2 and earlier (or the rarely-used other mods with those commands), they couldn't amslap-amslay-ampunish-amsleep-amtele into lava, so they couldn't have as much "fun". Simply kicking someone isn't as much "fun" for them. Look how much they are complaining about losing only two of those commands. Some have even said they will keep using 2.2 because they "love" those abusive commands so much.

Originally posted by Slider744
now amidla look at all the basejka server are empty.....
why?
they are real gamer clans.....
so why they are empty?
this is not the fault of JA+ because jA+ is even not isntalled on those server....
moreover they are empty....
so why?
it can be due to real gamers who don't want to play on those server because they are afraid of beeing abused by JA+ cmds as JA+ is even not installed on those servers....
So you see this is not the fault of JA+

perhaps if those server are empty, this is just because this clan is not as good as other clans...
perhaps the main admins do not put nice maps or nice models, or perhaps the clan mentality is not good.....
This is not the fault of JA+ if some server are empty...
this is only due to the wat the main admin or the clan leader manages his clan....
THis is even more true if JA+ is not installed on those basejka server lol

One more time, I'll explain this. Abuse on JA+ servers drives new players out of the game before they can even find or try a non-JA+ server. That chokes off the flow of new players that might have ended up playing on basejka or non-JA+ mod servers.

Originally posted by Slider744
and stop quoting every single word of all people....
according to me the SSC clan server was just a clan with the leaders who didn't know how to keep their players...
they perhaps didn't manage correctly his servers....
Amidala no clan is ethernal...
this is the reality....
Please Amidala don't try to make a list of all clan that died since the beginning of JKA...... because it has nothing to do with JA+.....


slider, I'm not listing every clan that has died. I am simply quoting what a former big big fan and supporter of JA+ said what happened when he left the safety of his own server. He was "horrified" by the behavior on other JA+ servers, that's why he said "I can honestly say that this mod has ruined JKA". And he was a big supporter of JA+ mod, not some "JA+ basher".

Originally posted by Slider744
Amidala your reasonment is simple.....
you try to list all the problem i nthe community and try to justify that it is the faul of JA+ as it is used a lot.....

perhaps you should do the same reasonment to basejka server as they are also a lot used.....

but perhaps you should only stop whinning and just understand there no guilty.....

but with your reasonment, according to me basejka is as guiltly as JA+ as they are both used a lot.......
but basejka is of course not guilty
and jA+ is not guilty

basejka is used a lot, but it simply doesn't have the ridiculous amslap-amslay-ampunish-amsleep-amtele commands that JA+ has. To compare abuse on basejka servers to JA+ servers, and blaming basejka servers for driving players out of the game with abuse is really ridiculous.

Originally posted by Slider744
this the way the game is made that made the game with at maximum 800 servers compared to others game lwike Q3, UT, HL that have 2000 servers....

players that are atracted by JK series are not a majority and JK series is quite uniq in the gaming community.....
Weapons are not that good compared to other games...
JK series gamers are more saberist and force users...
weapons users come more to other game.....

The weapons in this game are just fine, and this game adds Force powers and the lightsaber to make a magical combination when the game is played as it was designed to be played.
It's circular logic to make a mod that helps gun-hating "honor" saberists drive "real" players (many of whom use guns or at least aren't afraid of using them or hate using them) out of the game, and then say "see, gunners don't like this game, they like other games".

Many of the players on my servers have played UT2K4, DOOM III, Painkiller, Halo, and other games, but they still come back to full-weapon full-Force Jedi Academy because the game is that good, when it is played "normally".

Originally posted by Slider744
if you have the logical braind that you claim to have, learn to make mods...
it require a lot of logic....
i am sure you would be good making mod that only is like you want it to be....
SO then Amidala yo would stop whinning that this mod or this other mods or another mods is not like you want it to be.....
but maing a mod, you will relize that it will not prevent real gunner to go in UT or HL or even Q3 because they are games that are made for gunner...
All the mods in the world aren't going to bring back all the players who were driven out of the game by JA+ mod. Making yet another mod is pointless, and doesn't treat the problem. The problem, as we said from the very beginning http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119796&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 is the abusive commands in JA+ mod. It's those commands that cancel out the good features of your mod. Only you can fix that problem, not me or anyone else. And I am glad you are finally just beginning to fix that problem, late as it is.

Originally posted by Slider744
this is a reality and stop saying this is the faulf of JA+.....
You act as a child always whinning for nothing...


lol, just can't resist those ad hominem attacks, can you slider? Just like an admin who just can't resist using amslap-ampunish-amslay-amsleep-amtele. Oh well, it's always evidence to me that someone is losing an argument when they sink to that level, so have a nice day slider.

Slider744
03-13-2005, 12:22 PM
Amidala you are wrong
honour rpg thigns is not a cancer
this is a big part of the commnuity that like playing like that....

your reasonment on new player would be good if only the top list of server would be JA+ and no other mods or basejka servers....

this is not the cases, a new player tend to sort all the servers in its UI that come with the game to go on the server with the higher number of player and the best ping.....

if a server abuses player for nothings, perhaps player like to be abused so they return all the time on the same server in roder to be abused?
no amidala, those server that abuse players will tend to be empty....
so in the top of the list, you will have more good servers......
Moreover i don't think you have only JA+ server at top of the list.....
at top of the list you have all mods and basejka....

then a new player as you say learn quickly what are the server rules....
this is displayed when you enter the server...
perhaps at first comen he does not know what laming is....
but he learn quickly seeing how other player are playing onthe server....
then all people who have a minimum in their brain are aware of the fact that when they come in a server whch are not their server, they have to flollow the rules of the server....
when you follow the rules you are not abused...

Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
slider, I'm sorry, but when you make such a long, rambling post, I have to use quotes so people know which of your many points I am responding to.


This is not needed because you are speaking to me and not to other people.
SO you basically think other people will read what you write? lol
Quoting everything make your post so long that no body will read it.....
So this is no the worth to quote everything for other people because the y will not read it...
And so if it just for me, this is not the worth to quote everything i said because i know it

Achilles87
03-13-2005, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Slider744
if a server abuses player for nothings, perhaps player like to be abused so they return all the time on the same server in roder to be abused?

This makes no sense, this is exactly why JA is dying out, people abuse players for nothing..


Originally Posted by Slider744
then a new player as you say learn quickly what are the server rules....
this is displayed when you enter the server...
perhaps at first comen he does not know what laming is....
but he learn quickly seeing how other player are playing onthe server....

Yes it is displayed on the MOTD when you enter, most new players do not know what 'Laming' is, so they go ahead and play the game the way it is meant to be played, and no, they do not go around copying the ways other people act.

Originally Posted by Slider744
when you follow the rules you are not abused...

Why should they abused in the first place? Why not a simple warning? Oh that's right, because you gave admins the commands to abuse new players like that.

Originally Posted by Slider744
This is not needed because you are speaking to me and not to other people.

I'm reading all of her messages, and they all make sense, because I know what part of your posts she's responding to.

Originally Posted by Slider744
ALso why don't you speak about all other mods that can also be used to abuse by silly admins?....

Because there are no other admin mods that have all the abusive commands like yours, look and JAReloaded, Orion removed most of the abusive commands..

Originally Posted by Slider744
why don't you also speak about all basejka server that also may abuse for exemple the rcon kick cmd?

She does speak of those because those servers are not abusive,
the rcon kick command is the only admin command in basejka servers, you don't see the admin constantly kicking people for no reason.

Originally Posted by Slider744
before you were often criticizing direcyly my person saying for example i only know how to code amkiss or i stole most of thigns......etc...


Because you did steal most of the things, you stole the code from cHoSeN oNe and just added a few more features.

Originally Posted by Slider744
you are often criticizing my person directly...
you say i am a good programmer only now since a few days lol

A fews days? I've been looking back at some other posts, looks like they've been going back to the beggining of Feburary. That's not a few days.

Slider, stop thinking you're right, your arguments are not making any sense, and because of that, you lash out at Amidala... That's not right...

Young Jedi King
03-13-2005, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Achilles87
This makes no sense, this is exactly why JA is dying out, people abuse players for nothing..

Jedi Academy is dieing because of all the new games like Half life 2....World of Warcraft....Battle Front….Kotor 2…..and now Republic Commando (which is a good game). It's called a natural cycle of games they come they go. If you look at it Jedi Academy was doomed from the beginning Due to the fact that the game didn't have the feel of a NEW Jedi game it felt like more of a patch to JK2...If you also look at sales figures Jedi academy didn't do as well as Jedi Outcast or past Jedi games hence it will have a shorter life span then most games.

Originally posted by Achilles87
Because you did steal most of the things, you stole the code from cHoSeN oNe and just added a few more features.

Can you honestly say you have 100% proof of this??? If so were can I find this proof

Originally posted by Achilles87
Slider, stop thinking you're right, your arguments are not making any sense, and because of that, you lash out at Amidala... That's not right...

To be honest man they both have done there fair share of lashing out...Amidala has her right to her opinion, as does Slider to his. From all the Tons of messages I have read on this forum and many others from the past two years when I started to play JK2 THERE will always be the honor players and the hardcore gamers instead of arguing all the time over a Mod why not just play the game and enjoy it while it lasts??? And at least try to coincide with each other….

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-13-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
your reasonment on new player would be good if only the top list of server would be JA+ and no other mods or basejka servers....

this is not the cases, a new player tend to sort all the servers in its UI that come with the game to go on the server with the higher number of player and the best ping.....

I know slider, you would think so. You and I and other experienced gamers sort servers by number of players or ping, but a suprising number of people, especially new players, apparently don't know they can do that. They sort servers alphabetically by name, because that is the default way they are sorted in the server browser. That's why so many servers, including your CTF server, have so many "€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€" in front of their names, trying to get to the "top of the list" alphabetically. I see questions about it from server operators in the forum that I moderate:

Originally posted by Zimrann
How do you get your server to appear at the top of the server list in the in-game menu of JKA. I know it is this symbol you use:€ But whenever I upload this onto my server cfg. and reset it it doesn't appear at the top of the list.

Well, I just asked because some of my clan members asked for it to be at the top so they could own some noobs, just to make them feel better. Sometimes having a server at the top helps in recruiting, as some people that play JKA for the first time atually are not all lamers and noobs.


Originally posted by vexir
Okay it shows up now. You're right, it took half a day though. Thanks. My only concern is that its quite low on the list. I guess thats okay, But other servers with similar name are much higher.

And, most of the busy "FFA" servers are running JA+ mod AND are "no laming" servers. So whether new players sort by name or by number of players, they are likely to end up on a JA+ 2.2 "no laming" server. They will go there, maybe notice a MOTD that says "No laming", or maybe not notice it, either way the new player doesn't know what "No laming" means. They start to play "Free For All" and the next thing they know: amslap-amsleep-ampunish-amslay-amtele into lava, while several people on the server say "lol" and "lol, look at that noob lamer, lol". Often they aren't even told what they did "wrong", the admins are just so eager for a chance to "feel important" (you were right on with that observation) by using their admin powers.

Originally posted by Slider744
then a new player as you say learn quickly what are the server rules....
this is displayed when you enter the server...
perhaps at first comen he does not know what laming is....
but he learn quickly seeing how other player are playing onthe server....
then all people who have a minimum in their brain are aware of the fact that when they come in a server whch are not their server, they have to flollow the rules of the server....
when you follow the rules you are not abused...


A CTF player that plays on both of our servers, Mith, did a survey. He and some of friends went to different "honor" FFA servers and pretended to be new players who didn't know what "no laming" meant, to see what would happen to a typical new player. He described what he found here http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1731864&#post1731864

Originally posted by Mithie
I've gotten a few of my friends to do a survey. We took the role of being new JKA players and visited about 60 FFA servers. (It was very thorough. We each went to about 5 servers.). We went in to these servers, asked(politely) some stupid questions, and killed 2 players who had sabers down. Normally, I'd hope (since this is JUST A GAME, and your character getting killed doesn't mean you're dead in real life), that people would take it less seriously and take the time to explain "no, that's called laming. Please don't do that, it disrupts our role playing and chatting session."

Instead: here were the results:

22 servers kicked us without an explaination.
12 servers /amslapped, /ampunished, /amslept us around and make lewd comments, like (omg, laming fag and haha n00by lam0rz)
9 servers made snide remarks, THEN banned us.
6 servers banned us immediately without explaination.
3 servers teleported us into the lava on taspir... repeatedly while making crude remarks.
1 server called me a jew and said I should be gassed, then kicked me.


Only 2 servers (thank you very much) bothered to explain to us what we were doing wrong. We apologized, and had a fun time playing there.


That is what happens to new players to this game. People often say "well, if a server abuses you, go to another one". They do, and they are abused there too. And the next one, and the next, and the next, until they say "forget this" and give up, long before they get to a non-abusive server, JA+, or Movie Battles, or ForceMod, or basejka, or whatever. That's how the abusive (overwhelmingly) JA+ servers hurt basejka servers (and non-abusive JA+ servers). It hurts the game, it hurts everyone.

This has been going on since Jedi Academy Mod in JK2, and JA+ just carried on where it left off.

And, as you well know, players aren't abused just for "breaking rules". They are abused for beating a clan member fair-and square in a duel (that even happened to you) or FFA, for having the name "Padawan", or just because the admin is in a bad mood:

Originally posted by Vicodin
Members of my community have been visiting POS JA+ servers for reasons of chronicling the destruction of our game. Imagine my surprise when on my 37th server visit I happened upon a JA+ saber only server where all of its 10 members were FFAing.
Yep, I couldnt believe it either. Stunned I joined the fray with the name of ANGRY JA GUNNER. This drew some rude comments but the game went on.

I havent played sabers in a long time but within minutes I began climbing the leader board. When I got into the Top 3 with 5 minutes to go they began to gang up on me after one
of the clanmen on the server boldly stated : 'We cant let this noob win' I didnt reply but kept going. With 5-6 players chasing me around FFA5 I drew into a tie for first.

This apparently, was all they would tolerate. Some ass on the server used his admin powers to put me to sleep. Frozen in mid air I was laughed at and taunted. When I protested (very angrily with many choice phrases) the guy who put me to sleep
says: 'Are you going to win tough guy? No so stfu' I finished second and the winner had the balls to say 'hahaha f***in loser'

Not too suprisingly I was kicked from the server. I have seen this crap all too often. Was the admin judicious? Did the players play fair ganging up on me? Were they worried about having fun or having a rusty saberist whoop their asses at their own game? The one server out of 100 that actually has a game going on and the little whiny bitches were still concerned about their own weasley repututations than playing a game for fun. The JA+ mod makes it possible. It is because of this s**t that most legit JKA fraggers are gone.


Originally posted by Knight
I was once like you, im not biased at all. I used to enforce laming rules, HARD. But once I understand that this is a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER that raven inteded to be, I understood how wrong I was. You're treating us like we have a mental illness.

You know, after all my time of being an a**hole admin by treating lamers like s**t, the most common responses were:

" What is laming? "

and

" What did I do?!"

the reason they asked me those questions weren't apparent back then, I just thought it was because they were noobies. And of course, after all, it was the reason. But because of that, that meant that they have never encountered a video game where there were laming rules.

Originally posted by Trauma Sensei
lol yes Buffy, I know exactly what you mean, ppl say admin powers are gay, but they dont see these as the only way to "enforce law" on a server, I mean you cant just tell someone "would you plz stop laming?" because they wont *believe me ive tried* heh I have also my really evil days when I get pissed at anything *i tele lamers to lava or to a locked place with a few desanns muwhahahahaha*

RpTheHotrod
03-13-2005, 03:35 PM
*fixing*

Slider744
03-13-2005, 03:46 PM
Amidala a sruvey means nothing ....
FIrstable as you may know a survey only can mean something if first :

--- you go on all servers and not just a few
because to have good statistic you have to test high number of servers
---- describe exactly what you do on each server....

a new player have no skills and iwill hardly kill someone quicly

i think during the survey when you come to kill someone, it is abious you are not a beginner....

it is easy to recognize a beginner in a game...
secondly even a new player is not stupid....
when he see on a server that all people are only dueling and no attacking each others...
even the new player is wondering to himself this is strange this is not like UT....
the new player may ask why all people are dueling and not attacking everybody.....

for the one who just said i stole the code....
if you had moding skills, you should know this is impossible to steal code..

RpTheHotrod
03-13-2005, 03:53 PM
Slider...I had to edit a few things to make it make more sense. Re-read this.




Originally posted by Slider744
with all the respect i have to you, before to say wrong things, you should take time to isntall the lastest version and check all you just said...


if you are speaking to me, I'm basing all of that off the version I downloaded from your site 2 days ago....the beta version. Is there a release that was put on the website since yesterday?

The questions still stand.



Slider.

I realize this is currently beta...so I have a few things to ask.


1. Will the twirl up and get stuck for 3 seconds move be able to be CLIENT SIDE deactivated? (the one where you forward, jump, attack, near someone). I friggin hate that going off. I know there are commands to disable the other two. I tried turning everything off and I was still doing that twirl into the air move.

2. Will you be touching up on the "new" kick moves? Just seems so buggy and choppy animation right now.

3. Will you be removing the free "stun" moves everyone is currently spamming over and over and over? (he raise them in air and stab, or in duels...the single/duals kick and jump in air and come down and slice away). It REALLY removes a LOT from duels. Stuns are never a good idea. It's understandable if the other person could at least attempt to get out of the way.

4. Why was single/duals given 2 new kick moves when staff was given one? Staff was originally supposed to be the only one to even get the kick ability in the first place. I don't understand why you've taken unique things from staff and gave them to others. Flipkick was the original one. Flipkick is far more effective and very easy to spam (and exploit with pull/grip)....so what's the advantage of using staff kick? Now you're giving single/duals 2 kicks.

5. Is the "everyone can kick" move going to be balanced and given to staff only? single and duals gets two, while staff gets one. If you limit to staff only, everyone gets 1 new kick.


6. Is the "everyone can kick" move going to be changed to stop after the first kick? The 2nd kick in that move is kind of pointless. You just get stuck. How about an option to stop the move immediatly after the first kick...and an option to continue starting the 2nd kick? I know you can "somewhat" stop the 2nd kick...but you still have an unneccessary pause after the first kick.



*NOTE* The alt dem I saw when I didn't have latest version.

Also, the whole alt demension is just...annoying. You have people running around with it on and freaking people out because people think someone is trying to lame someone and then all hell breaks lose as everyone chases after someone who can't hurt or be hurt. How about giving alt dems a "dim" or something that shows they are in another deminsion. Also...people with it abuse it and annoy the crap out of others by swinging inside of them over and over and you have to take time just to be able to get them. Normally you can handle a lamer easy until they get bored and leave after being owned so much.

and on top of that, while dueling people, sometimes they have it on for some reason and my attacks just go right through them and I still take dmg from their swings.




and a bug I've found so far:

Sometimes people's sabers are completely invisible, but still do damage. I've had it happen to me personally a few times, as well.


Are you ever...going to make any moves that don't require you to be locked in place and unable to move for "some" reason?


Also, a suggestion. How about putting grapple/jetpack under abilities to "buy" with force points? That way you don't have every single person grappling all over the place all the time like it is now. Lamers will still buy it, of coarse...but at least they'll be at a disadvantage. People jump in, lame, grapple away. Very annoying. Why was grapple even implemented in the first place? It just promotes the ability to lame risk-free. Also, it removes all map navigation skills.

How about putting grapple into "merc items"...so only those with merc enabled have it?

How about forcing grapple to not be instant like it is now? At least people would have the chance to stop lamers from getting away by force pushing it backwards. As it stands, most servers make the grapple instant...which lets lamers literally zip all over the place. If it's truly to map navigate...then making the grapple fire towards a wall over time wouldn't defeat the purpose. It would only make it have a weakness to use during combat.


Whether or not slider stole something, you know, it doesn't matter anymore. People love "easy mode" and are attracted to JA+ because of how "easy" it is to do anything. Spam anything you want with minimal risk. No worries about force regen, no worries about missing a flipkick, no worries about getting caught laming when you can grapple away, etc... People are going to use his mod. People don't care who made it. I'm just hoping that Slider gets with it and realizes that every thing he adds needs to be balanced. That is why I bring up a lot of questions. Not to say he sucks, it's to try to make him realize that his "fun" features are extremely unbalancing.

I talked to Buffy and she said all this "fun" stuff doesn't matter if it's unbalancing or not because it's "fun". Problem: What about those who find it fun to have some real fights and real skill? It's not fun for us when all the other people do is lame and grapple away. It's not fun when all people do is sweep spam since it does 180+ damage. It's not fun when people just spam butterfly since their force regen recharges instantly. It's not fun when people are running around /amhugging and /amkissing you and you can't do anything to stop it. It's not fun to have someone run up and do some lame "stun" move that you can't get away from.

Fun is fine...but it has it's limits. When fun starts to overule gameplay....then your product is starting to fail. You MUST maintain a balance!

Grapple for example. It wouldn't be unbalancing if you at least had the chance to let's say.....throw yoru saber and cut the cord....or people to force push it away (currently that's in BUT 90% of servers make grapple INSTANT....so it's impossible to push). If you want to balance grapple... try one of these four. 1. Give it to merc only 2. Give it delays 3. Make it destroyable 4. Have a SET amount of speed the grapple can travel to give a chance to force push it away.


Flipkick....it's overpowered because there's nothing to balance it. Normally missing or messing up a flipkick would cost you precious force. In JA+, 99% of servers have insta regen so you can pull/flipkick until the day you die without risk.

Heck, you can't even used a skilled-timed STAFF normal kick to kick someone off. Why? POOF they instantly vanish because of an insta grapple hook.


If you're adding features, you MUST balance them.

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-13-2005, 04:22 PM
slider, as I already mentioned, there are only around 200 servers that aren't totally empty (of course the number fluctuates, but it's approximate, and even counts servers that have only bots) so if they actually went to 50 or 60 of the most active "honor FFA" servers that's a pretty representative sample. It wasn't meant to be a "scientific" survey. And it is way more evidence than simply saying "i know a lot of JA+ server where this is alll the taime real gaming and no rules of antilaming set..." and "i also see a lot of basejjka servers with hnour rules" with no names or IP addresses or any data at all to back it up.

And even a new player can "kill" someone pretty quickly if the person being "lamed" just stands there, saber off, and doesn't fight back. And that's exactly what many of them do. They are so suprised that someone is attacking them, or they are so used to just crying out "stop laming!" and waiting for an admin to amslap-ampunish-amslay-amsleep-amtele the "lamer", they don't do fight back or even turn on their saber. In fact, many servers have rules forbidding "laming back" a "lamer", players are told to let the admins handle it.

And by the way slider, I saw this post by *VaS*Buffy:

Originally posted by Buffy
the new ja+ makes it somewhat impossible to *lame* if it's being admined correctly.
You see in the new ja+ you have 2 dimensions in which 1 you can have honour rules and in the other you can fight as much as you like.

Even though right now it's set that the first dimension is the rules dimension and the second fight dimension. I prefer it the other way around which i suggested to Slider and he will make an option where you can pick if u prefer the rules dimension first or the fight dimension.

Even though she and I are on opposite sides of the "honor" fence, I think it is significant that both of us think that the default dimension (that a new player would enter) should be the "no rules" dimension, and the alternate dimension should be the "exclusive" "rules" dimension. I know you want to make it configurable, but I hope you will listen to her since you hate listening to me (lol) and make the default setup entry dimension = no rules\competitive dimension, alternate dimension = exclusive\no laming\RPG dimension. That would minimize the amount of abuse and misunderstandings regarding new players. The alternate dimension would be the "cool people's" dimension, and the "lamers" wouldn't be allowed in and would be forced to stay "outside" until they understood and agreed to the server rules.

TK-8252
03-13-2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
the new player may ask why all people are dueling and not attacking everybody.....

Most new players don't even know how to chat. Trust me when I was a JK3Files admin, most people "caught laming" were totally clueless that rules like that could exist and didn't even know how to ask what was going on.

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-13-2005, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
Most new players don't even know how to chat. Trust me when I was a JK3Files admin, most people "caught laming" were totally clueless that rules like that could exist and didn't even know how to ask what was going on.

That's right. And is it reasonable to expect new players (kids) who don't know how to sort servers by ping or number of players, don't know how to change their name from Padawan or know how to put colors in their name (another frequently asked question), don't know what "laming" is, or even know how to chat so they can ask why they are being amslept and amslapped to know that they should open the console (another thing that many of them don't know how to do) and enter /amaltdim or /refusetele??? How would a new player know they were supposed to do that, even if they knew how to open the console??

That's why *VaS* Buffy is right, the first\initial\entry\default dimension should be the "lamer's" dimension, and the special\reserved\exclusive\no laming\"cool" dimension should be the alternate dimension. Server operators can change it if they want, but that makes the most sense as the "default" condition.

Slider744
03-13-2005, 06:10 PM
RpTheHotrod
when i see your long post...
well you probably spent 10 min to write it...

if you had spent the same time to play the lastest version of JA+, you would see that all the things you say are already made and, for several of them, since a long time...

you should play more instead of spending time to write in forum and whinning about nothing for things you even didn't try....

The person i prefer in life are the one who always speak about things they don't know

RpTheHotrod
03-13-2005, 06:28 PM
Slider..... I guess you're a moron..simply put.


I'm talking about the version I downloaded TWO DAYS AGO...and again I asked if there was a new one released yesterday...and you havn't spoken up about it.

So you can go shove it.


I'm talking what's currently IN. I can join a server with you and show you all the numerous problems I've seen in the release I downloaded again...since you are slow...I will spell it out for you


T W O D A Y S A G O


so I assume it's the "latest" release...and AGAIN...I am asking if you released a "new" version yesterday.


I play the game everyday, not just writing up stuff.

Keep up your insults here...you won't like it.


All those I posted are in the version of this file

japlus_Plugin_V1.3beta2.zip


is that your latest?

If so...then shut the frick up until you know what you're talking about.


Since you are again slow, I will REPOST what I said so you can read it again and hopefully understand. I really do not want to report it in the language a 4 year old might understand.



Let's see...I guess I'll have to break this down for someone as unintelligent as you.



Slider.

I realize this is currently beta...so I have a few things to ask.


1. Will the twirl up and get stuck for 3 seconds move be able to be CLIENT SIDE deactivated? (the one where you forward, jump, attack, near someone). I friggin hate that going off. I know there are commands to disable the other two. I tried turning everything off and I was still doing that twirl into the air move.


You have yet to answer. I have disable every single option in your mod and my guy CONTINUES to do the dumb twirl.


2. Will you be touching up on the "new" kick moves? Just seems so buggy and choppy animation right now.

I am using japlus_Plugin_V1.3beta2.zip and the "new" kick moves are very buggy and choppy


3. Will you be removing the free "stun" moves everyone is currently spamming over and over and over? (he raise them in air and stab, or in duels...the single/duals kick and jump in air and come down and slice away). It REALLY removes a LOT from duels. Stuns are never a good idea. It's understandable if the other person could at least attempt to get out of the way.

I am using japlus_Plugin_V1.3beta2.zip and stuns STILL exist. I am asking will you be removing them or making them at least coutner-able. You have yet to answer.

4. Why was single/duals given 2 new kick moves when staff was given one? Staff was originally supposed to be the only one to even get the kick ability in the first place. I don't understand why you've taken unique things from staff and gave them to others. Flipkick was the original one. Flipkick is far more effective and very easy to spam (and exploit with pull/grip)....so what's the advantage of using staff kick? Now you're giving single/duals 2 kicks.

You have yet to answer

5. Is the "everyone can kick" move going to be balanced and given to staff only? single and duals gets two, while staff gets one. If you limit to staff only, everyone gets 1 new kick.
Again, you have yet to answer

6. Is the "everyone can kick" move going to be changed to stop after the first kick? The 2nd kick in that move is kind of pointless. You just get stuck. How about an option to stop the move immediatly after the first kick...and an option to continue starting the 2nd kick? I know you can "somewhat" stop the 2nd kick...but you still have an unneccessary pause after the first kick.

You have yet to answer. You still get stuck in the ground for no apparent reason...and the 2nd part of the kick is very unneccessary.


*NOTE* The alt dem I saw when I didn't have latest version.

Also, the whole alt demension is just...annoying. You have people running around with it on and freaking people out because people think someone is trying to lame someone and then all hell breaks lose as everyone chases after someone who can't hurt or be hurt. How about giving alt dems a "dim" or something that shows they are in another deminsion. Also...people with it abuse it and annoy the crap out of others by swinging inside of them over and over and you have to take time just to be able to get them. Normally you can handle a lamer easy until they get bored and leave after being owned so much.

and on top of that, while dueling people, sometimes they have it on for some reason and my attacks just go right through them and I still take dmg from their swings.

Again, this was before I installed japlus_Plugin_V1.3beta2.zip for the alt dem part.


and a bug I've found so far:

Sometimes people's sabers are completely invisible, but still do damage. I've had it happen to me personally a few times, as well.
This is using japlus_Plugin_V1.3beta2.zip and this bug happens often. I reproduced it several times. No one else could see my saber but it did damage.

Are you ever...going to make any moves that don't require you to be locked in place and unable to move for "some" reason?
You have yet to answer.

Also, a suggestion. How about putting grapple/jetpack under abilities to "buy" with force points? That way you don't have every single person grappling all over the place all the time like it is now. Lamers will still buy it, of coarse...but at least they'll be at a disadvantage. People jump in, lame, grapple away. Very annoying. Why was grapple even implemented in the first place? It just promotes the ability to lame risk-free. Also, it removes all map navigation skills.

A suggestion. Currently your mod foolishly makes grapple a free get out of jail free card that you can use at any time you wish...WITHOUT risk. Any gaming programmer knows that this is a massive flaw in any game.

How about putting grapple into "merc items"...so only those with merc enabled have it?
another suggestion

How about forcing grapple to not be instant like it is now? At least people would have the chance to stop lamers from getting away by force pushing it backwards. As it stands, most servers make the grapple instant...which lets lamers literally zip all over the place. If it's truly to map navigate...then making the grapple fire towards a wall over time wouldn't defeat the purpose. It would only make it have a weakness to use during combat.
yet another suggestion

Whether or not slider stole something, you know, it doesn't matter anymore. People love "easy mode" and are attracted to JA+ because of how "easy" it is to do anything. Spam anything you want with minimal risk. No worries about force regen, no worries about missing a flipkick, no worries about getting caught laming when you can grapple away, etc... People are going to use his mod. People don't care who made it. I'm just hoping that Slider gets with it and realizes that every thing he adds needs to be balanced. That is why I bring up a lot of questions. Not to say he sucks, it's to try to make him realize that his "fun" features are extremely unbalancing.
just a fact

I talked to Buffy and she said all this "fun" stuff doesn't matter if it's unbalancing or not because it's "fun". Problem: What about those who find it fun to have some real fights and real skill? It's not fun for us when all the other people do is lame and grapple away. It's not fun when all people do is sweep spam since it does 180+ damage. It's not fun when people just spam butterfly since their force regen recharges instantly. It's not fun when people are running around /amhugging and /amkissing you and you can't do anything to stop it. It's not fun to have someone run up and do some lame "stun" move that you can't get away from.

another fact

Fun is fine...but it has it's limits. When fun starts to overule gameplay....then your product is starting to fail. You MUST maintain a balance!

Making Games 101 that you seemed to have failed

Grapple for example. It wouldn't be unbalancing if you at least had the chance to let's say.....throw yoru saber and cut the cord....or people to force push it away (currently that's in BUT 90% of servers make grapple INSTANT....so it's impossible to push). If you want to balance grapple... try one of these four. 1. Give it to merc only 2. Give it delays 3. Make it destroyable 4. Have a SET amount of speed the grapple can travel to give a chance to force push it away.
an example

Flipkick....it's overpowered because there's nothing to balance it. Normally missing or messing up a flipkick would cost you precious force. In JA+, 99% of servers have insta regen so you can pull/flipkick until the day you die without risk.
another example

Heck, you can't even used a skilled-timed STAFF normal kick to kick someone off. Why? POOF they instantly vanish because of an insta grapple hook.
A fact

If you're adding features, you MUST balance them.

Again, Making Games 101 that you seemed to have failed

And cut out the noob comments about "omg omg omg play teh g4m3 n00b!" I havnt placed top 20 worldwide in jka because I don't play the game. I know what's in your mod...and I know what flaws it has. If you were smart, you'd listen instead of being an ignorant person and coming in here insulting people at LucasForums. Heck, I was in charge of working on the final JKA patch until my main coder got "unhappy" with how the community was because of your mod. If we released a patch, people would have a heart attack seeing that their exploits wouldn't work anymore and that duels would require more than just sweeping or BF spamming. If the patch was released...most of the playerbase would vanish because they've gotten so lazy playing your mod expecting to get away anytime they get into trouble by using grapple or jetpacks!

Slider744
03-13-2005, 06:41 PM
just give me your MSn to test what you tell.....
mine is in the readme
you will find it as you downloaded the mod 2 days ago right?

if you really downloaded the mod and really tested it more then 3 second,
so it means the server you played is not well isntalled or is not the lastest version of the mod....

i didn't insult people
this is just i am mad seeing people speaking about things they didn't tested carefully or pople bashing all the time JA+ or complaning about everything

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-13-2005, 06:50 PM
RpTheHotrod, you are probably already aware of them, but I still feel the need to make sure you are aware of

Movie Battles II (http://www.moviebattles.com) and

ForceMod III (http://fm.mt-wudan.com/).

Both are class-based mods that restrict jetpacks and grapples to "merc" classes, and both have reworked saber combat in different ways, with additional styles, revised blocking, etc. You are probably aware of them, but if you haven't actually tried them out, I urge you to download them and try them.

TK-8252
03-13-2005, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
The person i prefer in life are the one who always speak about things they don't know

Huh?? :confused:

Achilles87
03-13-2005, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by TK-8252
Huh?? :confused:

Yeah, I'm as confused as you... :confused:

RpTheHotrod
03-13-2005, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
just give me your MSn to test what you tell.....
mine is in the readme
you will find it as you downloaded the mod 2 days ago right?

if you really downloaded the mod and really tested it more then 3 second,
so it means the server you played is not well isntalled or is not the lastest version of the mod....

i didn't insult people
this is just i am mad seeing people speaking about things they didn't tested carefully or pople bashing all the time JA+ or complaning about everything

Believe me, out of anyone in jka...I go through things in and out. I know what I'm talking about, and bunching people into one big group isn't a very smart thing to do.

You have my MSN

RpTheHotrod
03-13-2005, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
RpTheHotrod, you are probably already aware of them, but I still feel the need to make sure you are aware of

Movie Battles II (http://www.moviebattles.com) and

ForceMod III (http://fm.mt-wudan.com/).

Both are class-based mods that restrict jetpacks and grapples to "merc" classes, and both have reworked saber combat in different ways, with additional styles, revised blocking, etc. You are probably aware of them, but if you haven't actually tried them out, I urge you to download them and try them.

Movie Battles I didn't like because of the weird blocking system. As long as you have block points and hold down the block key, you can block incoming attacks....even if the incoming attacks is nowhere near your saber. Tested it a lot. I'd have someone standing AWAY from me with their saber as far as possible from me. I'd think attack and they'd magically block every single attack.

I prefer to have manual blocking than a magical block bubble until you run out of "points".

As for ForceMod....I REALLY liked that one. A lot of fun :)

I still stand by the statement that Blademod (BWN) is "the" best combat mod out there at the moment. If they were to mix blademod's combat system (block rates, hitboxes, damages, force regen, etc...) and a few things from ja+ (ie RGB colors, some admin control, etc...), we would have a very good mod.

Nokill
03-14-2005, 01:19 AM
MMMMM ForceMod III *druel* :D

Slider744
03-14-2005, 03:47 AM
ok
RpTheHotrod
let me appologize if i speak a little rude toward you....

but when you will play on a real 2.3beta2 server using your plugin1.3beta2 that you already have you willl see that most of the things you said are already made

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-14-2005, 04:33 AM
Movie Battles I didn't like because of the weird blocking system. As long as you have block points and hold down the block key, you can block incoming attacks....even if the incoming attacks is nowhere near your saber. Tested it a lot. I'd have someone standing AWAY from me with their saber as far as possible from me. I'd think attack and they'd magically block every single attack.


Not intending to de-rail this thread, but just want to quickly reply to this:

1. I dont' know what verison of MBII you were testing here, but it must have been a very early beta build. In all latest builds if you attack someone in the back regardless of whether their blocking or not, it should be a 1-hit kill regardless of current BP points, unless perhaps you have a very unclean hit and you've only nicked them...

2. If your attacking them within their frontal blocking arc, and their holding block then yes, if you manage to get past their saber they may still block the attack depending on their current BP level. But 2 things to consider. First is that getting past their saber drains far more BP's then hitting their saber. So you keep getting past their saber, their going to be dead pretty quickly...
Secondly, in early builds we did have a system where if you got past their saber, there was no 'magical blocking' as you put it. But with the higher saber damage we have in MBII, fights were far to quick. Over in a few seconds usually... in terms of keeping duals reasonably paced, the system works well.

Not to say their aren't still problems with the system - which were currently working through for the latest release - but I don't think your apprasial was that representitive of what's happenning on MBII servers at the moment. I would suggest trying the latest build...

RpTheHotrod
03-14-2005, 11:28 AM
I'm more than willing to give it another try :) Biggest thing that bothered me was when I clearly would hit them (ie...they have their saber one way) and I go completely behind that saber, it still blocks. Like you said, it reduces their BP...but it's still annoying :P That's how I fight in normal FFA. I attack them in their undefended spots for a hit.

ie

http://www.jaguarfx.net/hotrod/jka/screenshots/singleoverhead1t.jpg

http://www.jaguarfx.net/hotrod/jka/screenshots/staffairjump2t.jpg

http://www.jaguarfx.net/hotrod/jka/screenshots/dualsbutterfly1t.jpg

http://www.jaguarfx.net/hotrod/jka/screenshots/dualsspec6t.jpg

http://www.jaguarfx.net/hotrod/jka/screenshots/staffvsstaff1t.jpg
http://www.jaguarfx.net/hotrod/jka/screenshots/staffvsstaff2t.jpg

Yes, I know they are attacking in these shots but it's the only ones I have offhand that shows how I mostly attack. Even if the are standing there trying to block, I'll go at the side and hit somewhere they arn't blocking.

Timing timing and more timing...butin MB...if they hold down their magic block key, timing means nothing... :(


Slider. I know the kicks are "in"...but what im saying....are they going to be made to look less choppy? Are you ever going to balance grapple? Also, are you going to balance the free-stun moves? Also, the kick that everyone can use, there is a big kick....then a pause, then a little kick, then a pause. What is the reason the 2nd kick is there? Also, there's an unneccessary pause in that kick where you guy just stands there afterwards. There's a few more things, but I'll show you ingame soon.


I'll go through the stuff in post ingame.


btw...I have "always" been a fan for non-saber combat martial arts ever since jk2. I've always been wanting to be able to give up my force powers to be able to go pure saber and martial arts combat (minus push and pull, of coarse...to prevent it). IE some stuff that most won't use because they are naturally attracted to the force powers....but some very cool extra martial arts stuff that is very useful if one bothers to become skilled with it. Why am I saying this? I dunno! :D Hoping maybe some martial arts hand to hand (or leg, heh) will be maybe put in someday...but needing it to be bought. That way, not everyone is running around able to do it. Heck, why not give the "new" kicks into some martial arts slot just for starters?

I just woke up so I'm just throwing stuff out there that might not even make sense in an hour.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-14-2005, 12:01 PM
Yes, I know they are attacking in these shots but it's the only ones I have offhand that shows how I mostly attack. Even if the are standing there trying to block, I'll go at the side and hit somewhere they arn't blocking.

Timing timing and more timing...butin MB...if they hold down their magic block key, timing means nothing...


Hang on Hotrod - I honestly think your disatisfaction is only coming from not understanding the MB system well enough...
I assure you, timing and control are JUST as important in MB as in base jka...


Like you said, it reduces their BP...but it's still annoying :P


Do you complain when you get 'under' your opponents saber in base JKA, but they don't die, they only get shields / or health removed?
..the equivalent of a 'hit' in MB IS reducing BP! Holding block doesn't stop them getting reduced... Once BP is gone, your next hit (assuming it's clean) will be fatal - duel over!
Jedi have no shields in MB, and when a saber actually hits someone - i.e. get's past their block cos their out of BP's, they will die in 1 hit

...just as base JKA rewards you for getting past their saber by knocking off their shields / health, MB rewards you for getting past their saber by reducing their blocking potential.
...once their blocking potential is gone, one hit is instant-kill (regardless of health)
...just like removing shields and health in base JKA means your opponent is dead...

...you can just as much call JKA shields and health 'magic' shields and 'magic' health, as much as call MB BP 'magic'. But you can't say MB doesn't reward timing and attacking away from the enemy's blocking saber, cos it blatently does...

in fact, MB is unarguably 'better' in that regard then base JKA in one aspect - a 'back' attack does actually perform a 1-hit kill in MB, regardless of health OR BP, whereas in base JKA, back attacks are 'magically' blocked by shields and health...

Slider744
03-14-2005, 02:43 PM
RpTheHotrod
i added you MSN but i don't see you

so it would be great that you show me the things your don't like on a server well installed

razorace
03-14-2005, 04:14 PM
I think it's interesting that Phunk, who hasn't been on the forums for a long time, decides to post in a thread complaining about JA+. Seems almost like a waste of a good post. :D

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-14-2005, 05:13 PM
Hey Razor :)
...I dont' post much these days, but I still lurk sometimes ;)
Just popped in to answer Hotrod's 'concerns'.

I don't think I have much to contribute to the main topic here, it's all been said before.
...I'd listen to Amidala and co on this one Slider old boy. But I'm sure my opinon isn't gonna mean anything to you...

btw Razor, I haven't forgotten what I said I'd send you. Just waiting for the B17 release. You know how it is - always takes longer than you think, but it should be on it's way to you pretty soon...

shukrallah
03-16-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Achilles87
Yeah, I'm as confused as you... :confused:


I'm confused about half of what slider says.

Slider are you from another country (besides the US, or the UK?)... I don't mean that as an unsult, I just want to know why your typing and grammar skills are so low.

TK-8252
03-16-2005, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I'm confused about half of what slider says.

Slider are you from another country (besides the US, or the UK?)... I don't mean that as an unsult, I just want to know why your typing and grammar skills are so low.

He's french.

acdcfanbill
03-16-2005, 08:24 PM
being french isnt an excuse, i know other french guys who are quite articulate.

Slider744
03-17-2005, 03:01 AM
and do those french people know how to code?

acdcfanbill i speak too many languages and also to many computer languages.....
this is difficult to speak all correctly...

and you who critize my english, how many languages you speak?
probably just english your native language.....
Try to speak my language...
i am sure it will be funny for all french people



computer does not support any mistakes.....

but human brain does support and can easily understand....
I make a lot of effort when i code because i am forced to.
Now i am not that good in english
But when i have to anwser to many insults, or bashing speaking i make no effort..

shukrallah
03-17-2005, 10:24 AM
Lol, I misspelled Insult as Unsult. Lol.

Slider, I meant no disrespect. I was just wondering. I too speak a few languages, including English and Spanish, and I used to speak a little Arabic and Japanese (I can't remember anything anymore, because I barley learned anything)

computer does not support any mistakes.....


I know. I have coded using C++, its annoying to only miss one symbole, like a ";" and the whole program won't run. It can be the same with Icarus scripting for JKA, not to mention shaders and stuff like that. ;)

Rad Blackrose
03-17-2005, 05:35 PM
Well well well, when push comes to shove and the modder gets scratched, what shows underneath is nothing more than a spoiled brat.

Slider, I'm not going to bother to even quote your poorly articulated dung you pathetically attempt to call your own opinion. Instead, I'm going to lay every little single card out infront of your eyes. Take the blinders off for a moment before you even begin to type a single word to refute the things I am about to lay out.

Frist of all, what Young Jedi Knight said in regards to how JA has died off is partially true:

Most of the competitive clans (who don't believe in this fairy tale honor horse**** made up by a delusional retard after having a session with Bubba *cough Slow Burn and the Saberist Code cough*) refused to move over to JA due to the fact that playing JA was taking a step BACKWARD to playing JKII.

By adding "flashy new acrobatics moves!" and "two more saber types!", what exactly did they screw up in the process?

-The kick: Arguably the best move a competitive player could pick up on, it was nowhere to be found (even in the leaked versions). The kick was ESSENTIAL to certain gametypes with the gimping of sabers from JKII v1.03 and onwards (Full Force CTF, Full Force Duel, etc). Kicking was a drain whore's worst nightmare, especially combined with PT and Grip.

-Force points for specials: This was hardly required to be implemented... Assinine at it's best. All moves from JKII had a counter once 1.04 was implemented (no more of that pivot BS ****). Other force combos that were widely accepted, such as FRage/DFA, were made obsolete. This anti-measure spam was unwarranted, and most mods immediately removed such conditions. This also brought about forceregentime 0, which led to massive force abuse of powers such as lightning and drain... but I digress. I'm talking about sabers and specials. Which brings me to my next point...

-Specials per saber style were unbalanced: They nerfed single neutral's undercut with an unwarranted pivot lock. DFA was gimped beyond all recognition. Dual-bladed saber's butterfly jump was brutal if connected; deadly if someone had their mouse sensitivity/cl_yawspeed cranked and was able to stick to their victim. Dual-bladed saber also had one of the most infamous bugs in JA stemming off of it's own kick. They could have thought of something better for both dual sabers involving duck+forward+attack1. The end result was single saber being gimped while the new sabers started to dominate. I'm leaving katas out of this one because my next point is...

Katas: The BIGGEST, most OBSCENE joke in the ENTIRE Dark Forces series lie in these pieces of crap for moves. "But these are used for dueling!!1" Yeah, like any real duelist is going to take you seriously if you decide to spam a bunch of retarded gestures like a raver on E with glowsticks ad-nauseum? "Say hi to spammy dual saber kata!" "Say hi to saber throw, bitch!"

On, and one minor point, once again all kata were not created equal. A dual saber user could stand in a crowd of FFA players and just suddenly use the kata to oblivion. Not only did this fustrate newbies, but with the adoption of forceregentime 0 by all the retards without a clue, it became a showstopper.

-New maps: What the hell happened here? Was it "Jedi Knight II's top ten rejected maps" that managed to squeeze it's way in? It seriously looked that way.

Poor netcode/server support: This was noticable on most servers I went to, especially when trying to connect to a server with ASE when I was still using that piece of junk. There was a lot of packetloss and lag about in any JA server I went to, and while some of the remaining might have finally stabalized, I wouldn't be surprised if the remaining servers were still utter pieces of garbage.

Not to mention for a while before the one and ONLY patch Raven put out (which subsequentially nerfed rolling as well), the in-game browser did not function as intended. This boned A LOT of the people who originally picked up the game and wanted to shoot for multiplayer right away and didn't know about ASE or Gamespy or other server browsers.

Now, with this and much, much more, why exactly would you want to move on from an established game to, in it's own right, a butchered expansion? It's one of those questions that begs to be asked.

Onto my second point, the honor codes... For christ sake, I shouldn't even have to reiterate the points I have made in the past to how such a mindset is detrimental to a game fundamentally based in a first-person shooter environment.

You think bowing is honor? Not attacking people with their sabers down is honor? You wouldn't know honor if it screwed you from behind and gave you the courtesy of a reach around. Those crybaby sissies you have so catered to in the past to the present Slider wouldn't even know the concepts of humility and respect. It's something old school gamers know that was lost when the new generation came in and got their asses kicked repeatedly.

I remember days where you'd connect into a server playing Quake through TCP/IP and just go all out. You'd frag someone, get the occasional camper, deal with the ****talker, but overall you had fun. You didn't accuse someone of being a lameass for having precise aim with the rocket launcher. You didn't cry cheater at the top of your lungs because someone popped you while you came around the corner making the sound level equivalent of a frightened elephant. In the end, all there was were complements, sharing of tactic, and ggs all around at the end of the map whether by timelimit or fraglimit.

Fast forward to today. It doesn't matter what game you go to" CS, UT2K4, HL2DM, JA. All games have a fundamental problem: The players are a bunch of whiners who can't take their lumps and shut up.

You're playing CS and score a headshot through a wall, lucky or filled with purpose. Instead of a complement for picking up on his sound trail and guessing where he might move to next, he cries that you're a collaborator to myg0t and tries to get you banned.

You're playing HL2CTF and you've been defending the base all map. You've used every weapon in your arsenal, and another wannabe group of flag cappers are coming for your flag. You're down to your Overwatch Rifle, clip of thirty and one Pulse charge left. **** the clip, launch the Pulse. After the group dies from the ricochet of the pulse, you're called a ball whore and people start to whine ad-nauseum.

You're playing JKII in a FF/SO Duel setting on duel_temple. You come across an opponent that cannot escape grip-kick for the life of him. Instead of learning how to counter GK, he might do a number of things... Grief the next person in line with the dis/reconnect bug, whine excessively in chat, etc.

This may be because of the spreading of malicious intent (I cited myg0t earlier), it may be because of the individualist mentality everyone seems to carry around (I'm the ****, no one can beat me!!1). When people can't have the game go their way, they might lose sight of the fact that it is a game (did YOUR parents ever instill that value upon you?). And when that happens, things can get very, very ugly.

The values of the older generation were lost on the younger generation, and now we're seeing the repercussions of it. Namely in the form of my third and final argument:

Admin mods.

The very thing Chosen One and Master Hex tried to avoid this time around was the same bloody monster you managed to create. You brought the one thing that doomed JKII's existence as a serious FPS over into JA, and you expect to NOT be burned for it? Not only that, but you ported over an EXACT replica of Jedi Academy/JediMod++ with potentially abusive commands. What exactly was going on in that ill-conceived mind of yours? I hope the publicity was worth it because the consequences of your actions have now caught up to you.

You gave those whining bitches I brought up a weapon more powerful than any saber or force power could ever match. The powers you gave to those self-proclaimed "I'm the **** and you're a lowly peasant!" retards did manage to do only one thing successfully:

Drive people away from the game.

And now you want to call yourself the redeemer of JA?

**** you.

You are no Master Hex.
You are no Dest.
You are no ArtifeX.
You are no Chosen One.
You are no Razorace.
You are no RenegadeofPhunk.
You are no Wudan.

Each of those people I listed above brought something unique to the Jedi Knight mod scene. Some were more acceptable than others, but none the less what could be done with the tools provided had impacts you wouldn't even begin to be able to comprehend.

Instead, all you are is a second rate hackjob. I'd even go to say you're the second coming of BOFH. This whole dimensional thing is the first (hold on, let me check that again, holy ****!) thing you must have managed to do by yourself. And when someone brings up one minute detail, you flip out like one of those "ninjas" you hear about over at realultimatepower.com.

Get the hell off your high horse. Amidala has had you by the last thread of life you possess this entire thread, I'm just waiting for her to end it.

(Now that this is over... someone want to point me to blademod? :) )

acdcfanbill
03-17-2005, 07:48 PM
whoo hoo! someone remimbers Artifex's ProMod :)

shukrallah
03-17-2005, 08:22 PM
You sound a little mad, Blackrose.

The only solution is a new JK game. It will take a while for coders to decipher and code a brand new admin mod.

If Raven had removed the duel challenge this whole thing may have been prevented. While I understand its purpose and think it is a good idea, without the challenge these n00bs never would have started thinking it was honorable.

To me, honor is fragging every guy left and right, jumping into a chaotic crowd of psycko saberists and thrashing them all, only to emerge victorious. Thats honorable...

Theres no honor in making human towers, or chatting around a duel pad. If I join a server right now, they will just be chatting. They think if they don't have a 100% fair chance at winning (cause they normally suck) its lame. Its lame to just walk up and stab them. Its lame to do anything they can't do, or something that kills them fast.

About the other deminsion: No one will join the fighting deminsion. Common sense, they will teleport "lamers" there and continue to chat. Meanwhile, the guy who wants to play will be by himself... sort of. Its pointless... you might as well kick him, or something.

Darth Kaan
03-17-2005, 10:00 PM
Blackrose is not mad, he's just stating the cold hard truth.

Promod is awesome, I reinstalled JO 6 months ago just to play it again. :D

shukrallah
03-17-2005, 10:24 PM
I went server hoping. I found a server with the alt dimension thing. While I was wrong, people are using it... the server lagged (mods just lag.... I never have a lot of problems with basejka) I joined the no rules dimension and started to fight. Problem: 5 people were in the room, 2 in the same dimension, and 3 others not in. How can I tell who is in, and who isn't. I tried fighting someone, and just went through them. Then I didn't attack someone, and they killed me. I just... got annoyed, through lag and everything else I couldn't tell who was where and on what side.

At least make people not in your deminsion invisable... it will save FPS, and possibly cut out some lag.

Slider744
03-18-2005, 07:23 AM
lukeskywalker1
this is because you don't have the plugin

Young Jedi King
03-18-2005, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
The only solution is a new JK game. It will take a while for coders to decipher and code a brand new admin mod.

LOL that would solve nothing lukeskywalker1 things would start all over. What raven and lucasarts need to do is Code a admin mod in the base game with two commands and that is KICK and BAN and DO NOT GIVE OUT THE SOURCE CODE NEEDED TO MAKE THE MODS....The whole reason there are so many freaking mods is because the majority of the JKA community Whined because they could not kick/ban people that were causing trouble (so raven released the Code so these mods can be made) and the reason for the excessive whining was because most Server Owners Were leery on giving out the Rcon password (which I totally understand because I don't think that even Amidala would want to give out rcon pass)

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
If Raven had removed the duel challenge this whole thing may have been prevented. While I understand its purpose and think it is a good idea, without the challenge these n00bs never would have started thinking it was honorable.


I personally like being able to duel in FFA there is nothing more that I hate then having to wait 20 mins to duel in a duel server only to have some Nut use a exploit in the game (which there are tons of in duel mode). To me that is not fun (isn't that why we play games is to have fun???) sooo I go to the FFA servers and duel when ever I want and for however long I want and I don't have to wait in line for 20 minutes just to play...

Kurgan
03-18-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Young Jedi King
[B]LOL that would solve nothing lukeskywalker1 things would start all over. What raven and lucasarts need to do is Code a admin mod in the base game with two commands and that is KICK and BAN and DO NOT GIVE OUT THE SOURCE CODE NEEDED TO MAKE THE MODS....

This doesn't make sense. Quake3 engine has always had the ability to kick and ban people. JK2/JA are no exception. It was built into the game from day 1.

The source code is the problem. Yes, without the release of the source code, none of these admin mods could ever have been made. Of course any good mod (like OJP or ProMod3, ForceMod3, Movie Battles) would also never have been made. We'd just have skins, new models, some maps and sounds, but no radically altered gameplay mods.


The whole reason there are so many freaking mods is because the majority of the JKA community Whined because they could not kick/ban people that were causing trouble (so raven released the Code so these mods can be made)

See above. You could always kick and ban. It had nothing to do with that. They released the source code because they wanted to give players the ability to mod this game as so many other games have been moddable in the Quake3 series. It was not a decision they made to quell whining.

There was a group whining very early on about "honorz." They wanted to be able to have a no force saber duel anytime, anywhere, without interferance from people with guns.

The thing is, Raven even did them a favor with JK2, because the lightsaber challenge was a feature built right into the FFA game. You had to disable it for it not to work!

The trouble is, even this wasn't enough for the "honorz" whiners. They wanted to make it so that NO OTHER TYPE OF GAMEPLAY WAS POSSIBLE, PERIOD. So they supported the admin mods makers, which appealed to their snobbery. Thus we end up with servers running JA+ Mod where any other gameplay other than challenging somebody to a private duel is impossible (and if you beat the admin or his subadmin friends too often he'll slap/sleep/bangun you off the map when it suites him).


and the reason for the excessive whining was because most Server Owners Were leery on giving out the Rcon password (which I totally understand because I don't think that even Amidala would want to give out rcon pass)

I don't see the big deal here. Why should the admin of a server give lots of other people admin abilities? This doesn't make sense. How many other games have "sub admins" in addition to regular admins? I don't know of any, but maybe you can name some. The subadmin system in the JK2/JA mods may have had a good intention.. ie: that the admin who wanted to run a server 24/7 but was "too busy" to watch it all the time would give others some limited powers there to keep things running smoothly.

In practice however it's just used as a reward system. If you brownnose the admin enough, he'll let you in on his sleep/slap/bangun antics. Or it just helps to serve the clan ethic.. clan members stick together and everyone else joining the server gets screwed. Of course if clans are about competition you'd think that this would be the total antithesis of such gameplay.

I associate clans with team games. But the honorz crowd favors one style of gameplay, the one on one saber duel with no force. So what is the point of having a clan for that? Just to have a one on one duel tournament ladder? That's about all you could possibly do. The point of training with a group of people to coordinate tactics then becomes pointless. It's just a saber dueling club. It doesn't matter if you have two members or 2 thousand.

The admin mods have become "panic buttons" for admins who get beaten fair and square, and "messing around" mods for bored admins who want to grief people. That and the RPG chatrooms which feature no competitive gameplay whatosever...


I personally like being able to duel in FFA there is nothing more that I hate then having to wait 20 mins to duel in a duel server only to have some Nut use a exploit in the game (which there are tons of in duel mode). To me that is not fun (isn't that why we play games is to have fun???)

Admin mods have done nothing to fix the exploits in the game. Your only recourse is to whine to the admin to "lame" the person who you think or want to claim is "exploiting." Rather than fix the problem, this game just turned the admins/subadmins into thugs who get to beat up people they don't like with impunity. At least in the past a sore loser admin had two options: remove the player beating you from the game and thus look like you're a sore loser, or suck it up and try to beat him using the same gameplay tactics available to all.

As far as waiting for a duel, well that's just how it is. If a server is running duel mode and there's 50 people waiting, that's really boring. I wouldn't host a duel server with more than 8 slots, it's just too much waiting (6 is better than 8).

As far as saber challenges, a duel can last a long time if people are good (or the saber damage is set really low). Some admin mods added the ability for multiple duels, but even OJP has that. You don't need slap/sleep/slay/bunny/empower/bangun for that. You don't need subadmins or teleportation commands for that.

sooo I go to the FFA servers and duel when ever I want and for however long I want and I don't have to wait in line for 20 minutes just to play...

Fine. Though I'd say joining a FFA to play a duel is kind of silly. You say you don't want to wait, ok. But it's impatience. They made it so only one saber challenge can occur at a time for a reason. You wait your turn because this is just a bonus gameplay feature, not the core of the game (which is fighting all out with sabers, guns and force with a bunch of people) intended by the developers.

Don't you think there's other people out there who want to play this game too? Not everyone wants to just duel. For that hosting your own server or playing on a network with your friends makes more sense. And so for the convenience of letting you duel forever, everybody else suffers because they find it difficult to find a server that isn't doing just that. I'm not blaming you for the problem, just this mentality you have that is shared by far too many JK2/JA players, unfortunately. It's the elitest attitude that this 1% of the gameplay is the only one which should be allowed, and which inspired these admin mods to take over. Of course the other side is the sore loser mentality (the idea that we have to "GET those 'lamers' for what they did to me"), but still, I hope you see what I'm getting at.

JA/JK2 were not made as dueling only games, but some players insist that everyone and everything should revolve around this. That's part of what has ruined the game. Some people focusing on 1% of the gameplay created by the developers and insisting that everyone do this or suffer.

No offense intended, but I think I've made my point. I didn't want to turn this into another debate over the issues of gameplay or why admin mods can suck. We've beaten that dead horse already.

If slider can actually improve his mod that has taken over half the JA community and make it less abusive, so much the better.

Young Jedi King
03-18-2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
This doesn't make sense. Quake3 engine has always had the ability to kick and ban people. JK2/JA are no exception. It was built into the game from day 1.

True Kurgan and please correct me if I’m wrong it requires the Rcon password does it not??

Originally posted by Kurgan
The source code is the problem. Yes, without the release of the source code, none of these admin mods could ever have been made. Of course any good mod (like OJP or ProMod3, ForceMod3, Movie Battles) would also never have been made. We'd just have skins, new models, some maps and sounds, but no radically altered gameplay mods.

You are right in that aspect kurgan it would pretty much kill the mod’ing community and the game in the long run…but as long as there are the players that like admin mods (which we both should know there always will be) there will always be some one to make them and of course someone to complain about said mod.

Originally posted by Kurgan
How many other games have "sub admins" in addition to regular admins? I don't know of any, but maybe you can name some.

Your right there is very few games that have sub admin systems if any at all… However there is also very few admin systems that have the power one has with rcon. Now I could be wrong but was that not the whole reason these admin mods/sub admin systems were made was so server owners did not have to give out rcon pasword???

Originally posted by Kurgan
I associate clans with team games. But the honorz crowd favors one style of gameplay, the one on one saber duel with no force. So what is the point of having a clan for that? Just to have a one on one duel tournament ladder? That's about all you could possibly do. The point of training with a group of people to coordinate tactics then becomes pointless.

I have seen some of these “honorz” clans (as you put it) do a team FFA match and some of these matches are just as fun to watch and play in as a FFA with full force and guns… On the other hand I do agree there are a few people out there that I wonder what have they been smoking with the “rules” they have but I also know they pay for the server they can do what ever they want doesn’t mean I have to go to that server…

Originally posted by Kurgan
The admin mods have become "panic buttons" for admins who get beaten fair and square, and "messing around" mods for bored admins who want to grief people. That and the RPG chatrooms which feature no competitive gameplay whatosever...

Well how would you resolve this problem if you release the code needed to mod the game you pretty much have to expect an admin mod to come out…. I guess that what I was trying to point out in my past post kurgan is we have to take the bad with the good and quit the complaining about Ja+ because there will always be that one coder out there that wants to have the popular mod no matter what he/she has to do. Just so all know I know the maker of OmNi mod (from jk2) he was going to release his mod in jka but got beat to the punch by slider so either way there was going to be a admin mod in jka not matter what anyone wanted…..

Originally posted by Kurgan
Admin mods have done nothing to fix the exploits in the game. Your only recourse is to whine to the admin to "lame" the person who you think or want to claim is "exploiting."

I know this Kurgan besides why would an admin mod fix these exploits???? I look more to OJP (and other mods) to fix the exploits in duel mode and FFA then I do for JA+ to me JA+ is nothing more then a FUN mod….

Originally posted by Kurgan
Rather than fix the problem, this game just turned the admins/subadmins into thugs who get to beat up people they don't like with impunity.

To me I blame the server owners and the admin’s abusing the powers more then I do the Mod makers but that’s me..

Originally posted by Kurgan
As far as waiting for a duel, well that's just how it is. If a server is running duel mode and there's 50 people waiting, that's really boring. I wouldn't host a duel server with more than 8 slots, it's just too much waiting (6 is better than 8).

I whish more Basejka duel server’s had that sediment but alas most duel servers that I have come across do not and the ones that do are usually running blademod which is not a bad mod but the players are all concerned about there “stats” to fight….

Originally posted by Kurgan
As far as saber challenges, a duel can last a long time if people are good (or the saber damage is set really low). Some admin mods added the ability for multiple duels, but even OJP has that. You don't need slap/sleep/slay/bunny/empower/bangun for that. You don't need subadmins or teleportation commands for that.
Don't you think there's other people out there who want to play this game too? Not everyone wants to just duel. For that hosting your own server or playing on a network with your friends makes more sense. And so for the convenience of letting you duel forever, everybody else suffers because they find it difficult to find a server that isn't doing just that. I'm not blaming you for the problem, just this mentality you have that is shared by far too many JK2/JA players, unfortunately.

I agree you don’t need the slap/sleep/slay/bunny/empower/bangun/ghost commands infact if those commands were gotten rid out of every mod I would not care…I’m not a Honor player or a Real Gamer To be honest I don’t really care I go to a server if there just standing around doing the honor thing I’m not going to care I’ll play by there rules (since it’s there server same as you ask people to abide forums rules) I also like a good FFA if I find a server that I like I add it to my favorite’s list and I go back I have quite a few server in my favs list one of which is Chop Shop

Originally posted by Kurgan
It's the elitest attitude that this 1% of the gameplay is the only one which should be allowed, and which inspired these admin mods to take over. Of course the other side is the sore loser mentality (the idea that we have to "GET those 'lamers' for what they did to me"), but still, I hope you see what I'm getting at.

JA/JK2 were not made as dueling only games, but some players insist that everyone and everything should revolve around this. That's part of what has ruined the game. Some people focusing on 1% of the gameplay created by the developers and insisting that everyone do this or suffer.

No offense intended, but I think I've made my point.

Kurgan I understand what your trying to strees and no offense was taken infact I understood what the real gamers were trying to tell people but I’m of the logic that people will be people there will always be that sore loser there will always be the coder that will do anything for his mod to be most used and there will always be people out there that want a admin mod so I have come to a point were I just don’t care I’m there to play a game nothing more..

Originally posted by Kurgan
I didn't want to turn this into another debate over the issues of gameplay or why admin mods can suck. We've beaten that dead horse already.

I don’t think you have….this turned into a debate on the first page lol…and yes this horse has been dead for months now....

TK-8252
03-18-2005, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Young Jedi King
What raven and lucasarts need to do is Code a admin mod in the base game with two commands and that is KICK and BAN and DO NOT GIVE OUT THE SOURCE CODE NEEDED TO MAKE THE MODS....

They should still give out the source code, so mods like ForceMod and MovieBattles can be made. But what they should do is put some line in the license agreement that says they reserve the right to shut down a server using a mod they deem abusive.

shukrallah
03-18-2005, 05:04 PM
What defines abusive, TK? To us, yeah, its abusive. To them its fun.

Besides the Honor Community (sadly) is greater than the hardcore community (in numbers.) LucasArts would be smart to provide for them because it will bring in more cash.

Plus, it would cost too much money to find and shut down abusive servers. The idea, while good, is to unrealistic.

It seems to me, that LucasArts releases the SDKs so that players can fix bugs and add on to the game things that LA doesn't want to be bothered with. :( It also helps promote programmers and such, that could be potential employees later on.

TK-8252
03-18-2005, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
What defines abusive, TK?

Common sense.

A competent company could do it. Sure it would take some extra effort, but if a company cared about the game they put out they would do what they can to keep multiplayer sane, at least.

After seeing Jedi Oucast MP go to hell, you'd think Raven/LA would have done something to stop JA from following the same path, but didn't...

shukrallah
03-18-2005, 09:57 PM
Theres not a lot they could do... sadly. They wanted to release the SDK, but the problem is, with coding comes and infinate ammount of possibilities, including admin mods.

Its obvious the admins don't *really* care about banning and kicking, they enjoy slapping and sleeping people.

Rad Blackrose
03-18-2005, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
You sound a little mad, Blackrose.

I'm legally insane, not mad. Get it right. ;)

The only solution is a new JK game. It will take a while for coders to decipher and code a brand new admin mod.

And we would be right back to square one. All you would be doing is acknowledging a vicious cycle that started.

Instead, I'd like to see what Kurgan and Young Jedi were bringing up: a sub-admin section within Raven's own game that has access to only kick and ban. That's it. The problem with handing rcon out left and right means that if someone has the password to your server, some clueless idjit is going to bone it. That solves a myriad of problems within itself.

If Raven had removed the duel challenge this whole thing may have been prevented.

I call BS.

Duel challenge was a mediation between the honor and competitive crowd at it's finest. I don't mind the challenging and all that stuff: sometimes I don't mind taking a break from hacking at limbs in FFA just for a 1v1 beatdown. But as the old adage goes, "give an inch, take it a mile." That's exactly what the honor crowd did.

While I understand its purpose and think it is a good idea, without the challenge these n00bs never would have started thinking it was honorable.

I'm thinking more of the wannabe samurai/knights than a gameplay mechanic on that issue... Kurgan's posted a spiel on it before, so I'll spare the detail.

Theres no honor in making human towers, or chatting around a duel pad. If I join a server right now, they will just be chatting. They think if they don't have a 100% fair chance at winning (cause they normally suck) its lame. Its lame to just walk up and stab them. Its lame to do anything they can't do, or something that kills them fast.

At least you get it...

About the other deminsion: No one will join the fighting deminsion. Common sense, they will teleport "lamers" there and continue to chat. Meanwhile, the guy who wants to play will be by himself... sort of. Its pointless... you might as well kick him, or something.

Remind me to remind Raven about naming their next Jedi Knight game with MP packaged:

Jedi Knight II: Jedi Academy: Jedi IRC!

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-19-2005, 02:21 AM
LucasArts wants their products to be as profitable as possible (as does every company) so they copy what other game companies do and release the source code, hoping modders will make another CounterStrike or Team Fortress, which expand the game and greatly increase the longevity and market for the game. Unfortunately, JK2 and JA ended up with two admin mods (JA Mod for JK2 and JA+ for JA) that helped to reduce the popularity and longevity of those games.

They also must realize that there are a large number of "honor" players who like to duel and chat, and they need to cater to those players. Unfortunately, the only way "honor" players can do what they want to do is to pervert and misuse the "Free For All" gametype, leading to the whole "laming" problem and the admin mods and the abuse that have followed them. So-called "laming" and player abuse are problems only on "Free For All" servers. It isn't an issue on Siege, CTF, Team FFA, Duel, or Power Duel servers.

Unfortunately, "Free For All" servers are the logical place for new players to go when they get JK2 or JA. And whether they are total newbies or vets of other games, they are likely to have no idea what "laming" is. They get abused and humiliated when they start going to JK "FFA" servers, and many of them uninstall the game or never play JK MP again. So the game never becomes as popular as it could have been, and the "honor" players become even more dominant, both by brainwashing and assimilating some new players, and by driving out others.

If it was up to me, I would do the following:

[list=1]
Create a new gametype specifically for the chat-and-duel honor players. Call it "Multiple Dueling" or whatever. Make it automatically saber-only and with the usual duel-challenge and multiple simultaneous duels that the mods have. BUT, only players who are actively dueling could ignite their sabers or use Force, if Force is enabled. No one on the server would have guns or explosives, and people not actively dueling couldn't ignite their sabers and couldn't use Force. So-called "laming" would be impossible. There would be no need for admins patrolling the server like prison guards, looking for "lamers".

Restore "Free For All" to its true deathmatch nature. g_weapondisable, g_forcepowerdisable, and g_forceregentime would all be cheat-protected or eliminated altogether. All FFA servers would be full-weapon and full-Force with default Force regeneration, for consistency.

By creating the new saber-only, "no laming" "Multiple Duel" gametype separate from full-weapon, full-Force unrestricted deathmatch "FFA", everyone would be happy. The chat-and-duel "honor" players would have something designed specifically for the way they like to play, and it wouldn't be mislabelled as "Free For All" as it is now. "Laming" would be impossible, and abuse would be unnecessary. New players who went to a "Free For All" server would find exactly what they were expecting, instead of what they find now.

Incorporate some of the admin mod features into the game: expanded ban list in an external file, client IP address or CD key logging, multi-line MOTD, and subadmin accounts. Subadmins could only silence, kick, or ban. This is to deal with the spammers, hackers, cheaters, and griefers in every game that must be dealt with. But subadmins wouldn't be unnaturally powerful as they are now, and they wouldn't be able to humiliate players with the silly amabuse commands on a whim.

Instead of freely distributing the SDK, require people who want to download it to sign an agreement that states what things (such as abuse-prone commands) can't be part of any mod made with the SDK. Make it clear that LucasArts reserves the right to revoke the license of any modder that breaks the agreement, and gives them the power to have file hosting sites remove offending mods from their sites.
[/list=1]

Young Jedi King
03-19-2005, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Incorporate some of the admin mod features into the game: expanded ban list in an external file, client IP address or CD key logging.

The Problem with CD key logging is if there is a admin with ill intent could/would easily copy the CD key then post it on the Internet then the players that do not like to buy games would have a whole new exploit then to actually pay for the game….

Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Instead of freely distributing the SDK, require people who want to download it to sign an agreement that states what things (such as abuse-prone commands) can't be part of any mod made with the SDK. Make it clear that LucasArts reserves the right to revoke the license of any modder that breaks the agreement, and gives them the power to have file hosting sites remove offending mods from their sites.

I personally foresee one major problem with that suggestion what game developer would and want to spend there time and there money to enforce the agreement???… To me Lucastarts does not seem the type to do this. Raven is a great developers I haven’t run into many developers were the people that actually made the game help other people expand on it. However once they deliver there product they have to move on to the next project I doubt they would want to pull there team off a new project to enforce a agreement (nor should it be there responsibility to). To me that falls on Lucasart’s head but as I stated Lucasarts doesn’t seem the type to spend the time or money to enforce the agreement…

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-19-2005, 11:31 AM
The Jedi Knight games don't currently use CD keys. I just included that in case for the next game they go to a different engine that uses CD keys to ban players.

LucasArts wouldn't have to spend any time or money policing mods. Just making modders sign that agreement would send a clear message that the company doesn't want kids playing their games to be abused and humiliated. What company would want their customers to be treated like that? All they would have to do is provide an special email address where people could report the existence of an abusive or inappropriate mod. It would take less than an hour for someone at the company to verify that the mod is in violation of the license agreement. Then they send a cease and desist email to the modder, and emails to the admins at lucasfiles.com, jk3files.com, pcgamemods.com, etc. to pull the file. Done.

shukrallah
03-19-2005, 10:01 PM
Amidala, while your idea cuts down on abuse there is a problem with it. The ammount of FFA servers would be around 20, and there would be "multiple duel" servers everywhere.

Create a new gametype specifically for the chat-and-duel honor players. Call it "Multiple Dueling" or whatever. Make it automatically saber-only and with the usual duel-challenge and multiple simultaneous duels that the mods have. BUT, only players who are actively dueling could ignite their sabers or use Force, if Force is enabled. No one on the server would have guns or explosives, and people not actively dueling couldn't ignite their sabers and couldn't use Force. So-called "laming" would be impossible. There would be no need for admins patrolling the server like prison guards, looking for "lamers".

Yeah, its annoying to walk into a server and have some guy grip you, then you hit absorb and slash him, and he cries lamer. I can't stand that.

RpTheHotrod
03-19-2005, 11:13 PM
Just for the record, Slider and I were able to meet up and discussed some issues for about an hour, if not more. I was able to confirm a few issues that are still in the latest version and he's already working on it.

Amidala from Chop Shop
03-20-2005, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Amidala, while your idea cuts down on abuse there is a problem with it. The ammount of FFA servers would be around 20, and there would be "multiple duel" servers everywhere.


If we had 20 active "real FFA" servers that would be about 15 more than we have now.

Sure there are lots of so-called "FFA" servers now, but most are really chat-and-duel servers. Making a new gametype just recognizes that reality and eliminates the confusion and false-advertising caused by "honor" chat-and-duelers running so-called "FFA" servers that aren't actually "Free For All". It's a win-win solution with no downside.

VaSBuffy
03-20-2005, 12:29 PM
i didnt read it all. but as soon as i saw ja+ and understood the amaltdim i suggested slider to make it server pickable.. which dimension u prefered default.

In my oppinion ja+ is an awesome mod. Always been. That other admits completly abuse it is their problem.

I think slider did an awesome job preventing people to abuse the features. I would say JA+ is near perfect.

shukrallah
03-20-2005, 04:55 PM
I would say JA+ is severly flawed, but thats just my opinion.

I think slider did an awesome job preventing people to abuse the features.

I don't. It seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) he agrees with the admins who abuse, because they need to keep order on their servers. If he wanted to prevent them from abusing the features, he wouldn't have included them in the mod.

That other admits completly abuse it is their problem.

No, its not their problem when it disrupts my gameplay. They are perfectly fine with slapping me around the map. I am not.

Master William
03-20-2005, 07:47 PM
Let's not forget clans that are just waiting for you to "lame" one of them so they can have an excuse for slapping you around and gangbanging you.

Yes, a bunch of Kyles standing there, twitching and moving now and then, most of them with their chat bubbles above their heads, looking at you as you are "sleeping"

Seriously, I miss Saber Only Full Force FFA servers.

Also what's with some people considering Force being "lame"? I often get comments like "you are lame, force noob"

shukrallah
03-20-2005, 07:57 PM
Master William, I am waiting for them to say Katas are lame... or something. If you beat them, you must have used some kind of "lame" method, because we all know that no one can compete with any clan memeber's 1337 skills. :rolleyes:

I think I'll take a nap as you guys continue to debate. :D Don't lame me, remember, my saber will be down. ;)

VaSBuffy
03-21-2005, 03:17 AM
Well if you end up in abusive servers just leave and go to another until you find a good one.

Believe me slider isn't for the abusive admins not at all. If he was he wouldn't have made my server a beta test server.

I think ja+ is very good it gives so much more dimension to playing jedi academy. So much more you can do and just because ja+ can make things easier. I never forgot where i came from (jk2 1.02) JA+ never changed me. I still fight the same way, do the same things. JA+ just adds a big list of other things I can do.

Those abusive admins they would have been abusive even without JA+. just leave the server. When I notice another server abusing the JA+ features.. Like disabling all force. I ussualy ask: You think force is lame or something? They ussualy reply with yes.

So then I simply go. If force is lame, darth vader and luke skywalker are lame. if they are lame, then star wars is lame. If star wars is lame, JA is lame. If JA is lame and you are playing it. That makes you lame as well.

Then they ussualy shut up or ban me =P but it's the truth. If you disable like 1 or 2 forces. Ok that's not a problem but a few to all? or all weapons? that completly ruins the game.

I cant wait for slider to enable the option of turning the dimensions the other way around. I really prefer fighting in the no rules dimension because people usually run away with grapple or jetpack and I like the fact that you cant use admin.

Just wish you guys would stop looking at just the abusive servers but also to the non abusive servers. See what a great mod JA+ is. This mod has so much potential. Like I always say. Don't take it out on the mod or slider because hes trying his best to stop people from abusing it. Take it out on the abusive admins. Their the blame. If ja+ wouldn't excist it would have been another mod who would get the blame. BLAME THE ADMINS!

LightNinja
03-21-2005, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by VaSBuffy
If ja+ wouldn't excist it would have been another mod who would get the blame.
No, ja+ is as anoying as boring, i get tired of playing with it seeing all the people laming and escaping with the jetpack or doing an special attack while they are going to you with the grapple, etc. Just look in jk2, there where much more mods (i think the perfect mod was JediMod) and the only one i got tired of it was sliders mod.
I don't know, maybe you should try more mods in your server and then talk. :rolleyes:

Zappa_0
03-21-2005, 07:02 AM
Yea the "FFA" fighting is pretty much dead now after the "your laming me" era began. I like JA+, but I can see Slider is now watering down the admin which taking away amslay and watering down amempower. Those two things is the only ones ive noticed of the changes in the latest update. I view JA+ and other admin mods a tool that can be used for good or bad. Slider has been grateful to code this mod for us to use. Buffy is right if you find urself in an abusive server, leave and never go back thats what I do. And with those servers without full weapons or full force, not all people like to play the game that way. Some people just wanna duel with sabers which alot of them are good at. I do agree that alot of these mods has destroyed the game play since the beginning of JO. You could join a real ffa game and have a real battle and no one would yell "Lame".

VaSBuffy
03-21-2005, 08:29 AM
Light ninja. I played other mods tried them out. JA+ is still my favorite. those things u mentioned are eliminated with the 2 dimensions. In my servers we have ffa fights all the time.

Kurgan
03-21-2005, 02:47 PM
I have a suggestion for slider. Now that the "two dimensions" thing is in his mod, he should do the following:

Put in an EXPLICIT clause in his readme file that says you aren't allowed to host old versions. Send the word out to websites hosting old versions of his mod, that they have to take them down, via author's request (if he can't do it himself).

This will limit the damage done by old versions that don't contain these improved features and help phase out the obsolete ones.

Kurgan
03-21-2005, 03:31 PM
To Young Jedi King:

Originally posted by Young Jedi King
True Kurgan and please correct me if I’m wrong it requires the Rcon password does it not??

Yeah, and your point is? Rcon is Remote Control. Normally a game is adminned by one person, the person who owns the server. I don't see a problem with this. Most games don't allow you to have 50 people adminnning a single server. That's overkill. But for some reason all the admin mods felt the need to put in "subadmins." This just means that instead of one abusive admin, you now can give "admin powers" to all of your abusive friends as well. So in a CTF game you can give your entire team the ability to slap/sleep/slay the other team to death. Pretty stupid.

So admins being reluctant to give out their Rcon password to random strangers is really no argument at all. That's how it's supposed to work. It's like people who want to admin servers but are too lazy or cheap to get their own.


And anyway, having subadmins doesn't mean that all the abusive commands are justified. The only reason subadmins are so popular is because they get access to the "godlike" super powers (like slap/sleep/punish/teleport) that the abusive admins get. If they only had warn, kick, ban and the ability to restart the map, how many people would honestly seek them?

You are right in that aspect kurgan it would pretty much kill the mod’ing community and the game in the long run…but as long as there are the players that like admin mods (which we both should know there always will be) there will always be some one to make them and of course someone to complain about said mod.

The thing is, the ration of people who want to be megalomaniacal "anti lamer" admins is disproportionate to the number of coders able to create admin mods. This small group of coders has the responsibility. If they don't create such mods, the vast majority of power hungry 12 year olds who like to slap people won't bother to learn to code in order to make one. They'll just beg and whine to try to get their way.

Your right there is very few games that have sub admin systems if any at all… However there is also very few admin systems that have the power one has with rcon.

Not sure how this is relevant. Rcon is in all Quake3 based games. UT has a similar admin system built in. Most games do these days (with some exceptions like Republic Commando). Being able to change game settings, kick and ban are just standard features. Being able to do it through a command line remotely is also not that big a deal.

Admin mods take it way too far, by making it so that you can win the game by pressing buttons, using abilities that have no counters and that the other players can't use. It's like having a "win" button and a "make other player lose" button. It's silly.

It's like somebody decided "you know what, I really wish Jedi Academy was exactly like an IRC chatroom with me as the head Op and people I hate as the players" and then went from there, creating admin mods.


Now I could be wrong but was that not the whole reason these admin mods/sub admin systems were made was so server owners did not have to give out rcon pasword???

I don't know, and I don't care. The point is, the subadmin system just encourages the abuse to get spread around to more people. It gives people an incentive to suck up to abusive admins so they can gain some of that "power" themselves. This in turn lends more temptation to the whole "cheating" angle. Now instead of one guy flying around invincible slapping people, you can have his whole team or his whole clan doing it to everyone who connects.

Of course having even one unstoppable player in the game ruins things, but it's even worse when you have lots of them.


I have seen some of these “honorz” clans (as you put it) do a team FFA match and some of these matches are just as fun to watch and play in as a FFA with full force and guns…

So they stand around and duel each other with No Force One at a time?

That's not a team game, that's a ladder. There's a big difference. And if somebody starts typing, they have to stand there and wait for them to finish. And don't get me started on all the bowing and other nonesense. And if somebody turns their saber off, this person is completely untouchable. You can't have a competative game with those kinds of restrictions because it's too open to abuse and subjective judgement calls. That's why games are programmed. Otherwise we might as well be moving flashing orbs around the screen and writing down our scores on a piece of paper, according to whatever rules we want to imagine.

On the other hand I do agree there are a few people out there that I wonder what have they been smoking with the “rules” they have but I also know they pay for the server they can do what ever they want doesn’t mean I have to go to that server…

Right, the trouble is that honorz and admin mods have infected most of the community. It's very difficult to find a stable server that's not part of this honorz/admin mod bandwagon. Thus people who bought the game to play it how it was intended are left out in the cold.

That's a pretty big slap in the face to them and the developers of the game.

It's like if people bought Expensive Cars just to toss them off cliffs. It's like okay, so the people who designed and built the cars are getting paid, but all their hard work is basically being trashed (literally) for a purpose it wasn't intended. Why bother anymore?


Well how would you resolve this problem if you release the code needed to mod the game you pretty much have to expect an admin mod to come out…

Not so. How many online games with open editing have NOT had abusive admin mods released for them? Most have not. It's only JK2, JA, and Half Life, and possibly Quake1 that have done it, according to the info people have posted. More popular games than that haven't had abusive admin mods created.

For some reason these Duelist honor obsessed people have taken over the Jedi community and made up their own dogma that they expect everyone to follow. The admin mods are just their "tool" to punish heretics (ie: people who play the game as intended).

I guess that what I was trying to point out in my past post kurgan is we have to take the bad with the good and quit the complaining about Ja+ because there will always be that one coder out there that wants to have the popular mod no matter what he/she has to do.

We have as much a right to complain when he does something stupid, as he has a right to continue doing said actions. Where does this idea that we shouldn't complain about a bad mod that's ruining the community come from?

If he didn't want criticism, he shouldn't have released his mod to the public, period. So it's an exchange that will continue, indefinately. Sure, he cna't please everyone, but I think anyone can see that his mod, which is extremely popular, has turned the community into something it was never intended to be.

It'd be like if somebody made a mod for Doom3 wherein it made the game FullBright all the time and took away all weapons and monsters. You just walked around the halls and talked to people in a virtual chat room. And this mod was so popular that 95% of Doom3 owners used it all the time.

Then these people started attacking people who didn't use it, and presurring them to use the mod, and if they didn't like it, they were shunned and excluded. It'd be silly right?

People who bought the game and wanted to play it basically aren't allowed to, by these people. They are only allowed to MISuse it.

Just so all know I know the maker of OmNi mod (from jk2) he was going to release his mod in jka but got beat to the punch by slider so either way there was going to be a admin mod in jka not matter what anyone wanted…..

Slider was still wrong to do it. All the people who made abusive admin mods were wrong. They are all to blame. He could have stopped or cleaned up his mod anytime, but apparently he let his pride go to his head, and went with what was popular, rather than what was good for the community or made sense. Sorry to say.


I know this Kurgan besides why would an admin mod fix these exploits???? I look more to OJP (and other mods) to fix the exploits in duel mode and FFA then I do for JA+ to me JA+ is nothing more then a FUN mod….

Because all these admin mod creators CLAIM that their mod is designed to "put the admin BACK in the driver's seat" (as if they were not there already) and "give the admin control of his server" (as if he didn't have it already).

Many of them also claim to be "revolutionary" and "improved." What is improved or revolutionary about a mod that is full of chaotic features that destroy any semblance of game balance, and let an admin basically cheat and destroy the flow of the game? In fact, that encourage such actions?

It's false advertising. Fixing exploits would be an improvement to the game.

Thus all of these admin mods are worthless compared to OJP. There, I said it.

Even the best admin mod that features abusive commands is just chocolate coated dung by comparison. You still get crap when you bite it.

To me I blame the server owners and the admin’s abusing the powers more then I do the Mod makers but that’s me..

They couldn't be so abusive if the tools were not handed to them on a silver platter. So the Admin Mod makers are the #1 person to blame in all this. The fact that people agree with them and gleefully use their mods is no excuse.


I whish more Basejka duel server’s had that sediment but alas most duel servers that I have come across do not and the ones that do are usually running blademod which is not a bad mod but the players are all concerned about there “stats” to fight….

I haven't used blademod. But if it lacks abusive commands, then I don't have an argument with it. A mod is a mod. If you took away the abusive commands, JA+ would just be a poor mod (ie: one that's interesting, but unbalanced). Since Slider is constantly working on it, that might change someday, but until he removes the abusive commands, my criticism of it stands.

What is holding him back? That he'd admit to a mistake? Or that he's reluctant to upset the "honorz" people who want to slap, sleep and fly around while invincible to impress noobs?

I agree you don’t need the slap/sleep/slay/bunny/empower/bangun/ghost commands infact if those commands were gotten rid out of every mod I would not care…

If that happened, it would indeed be a great day for the community. All of that crap began in JK2, and it could have stopped if these guys would just take some responsiblity for their actions and clean up their act. Instead they tried to fork the blame onto others and their supporters did the same (as you did with your "well, I blame the bad people who abuse these commands, not the people who invented them").

Break the chain, that's what I'm saying.

I’m not a Honor player or a Real Gamer To be honest I don’t really care I go to a server if there just standing around doing the honor thing I’m not going to care I’ll play by there rules (since it’s there server same as you ask people to abide forums rules) I also like a good FFA if I find a server that I like I add it to my favorite’s list and I go back I have quite a few server in my favs list one of which is Chop Shop

I didn't get any of the Jedi games so I could stand around and chat with people. I didn't get them so I could have a duel once in a great while without force powers. I got them because I knew you could use Force, Guns, and Sabers in an exciting combat environment, that rose above the likes of Quake and other pure gunning games.

I didn't want to Role Play, and I thought that wouldn't be a problem because these were First Person Shooters, not role playing games.

And this is another point. Various HonorZ and RPG advocates constantly go "well it's NOT a first person shooter!" "it's a third person slasher with RPG basis!" wrong, wrong, and wrong. These people don't even understand what they're saying.


Kurgan I understand what your trying to strees and no offense was taken infact I understood what the real gamers were trying to tell people but I’m of the logic that people will be people there will always be that sore loser there will always be the coder that will do anything for his mod to be most used and there will always be people out there that want a admin mod so I have come to a point were I just don’t care I’m there to play a game nothing more..

The thing is, modders don't HAVE to do what people want. Look at the editing requests thread. Most of the requests in there are IGNORED. Most mods that are created are also ignored for the most part.

So what? A mod maker makes a mod because he or she WANTS TO, not because there was some "demand" from the community. Sure, some modders do it with the hopes of getting community praise, and a few succeed. Some even get jobs in the games industry by getting noticed. But those are pretty rare. Most of the time you hear about some popular idea project that starts, and there's a lot of hoopla, but they end up cancelling, quitting or just fading away with nothing really accomplished, Or it ends in grief and anger because they fight over what to do or their fans lose interest because they want it NOW and the project makers just can't get it done in a reasonable time frame. Making a mod is very difficult when you're not on a budget and a schedule and your group is just loosely connected people doing it in their spare time.

So just because some people out there WANT admin mods doesn't mean that admin mods are inevitable, nor does it mean that admin mods SHOULD be made.

And admin mods COULD be made without abusive commands. You're giving the false supposition that admin mods that are abusive are inevitable. That's just not the case, otherwise every online game with open editing would have one, and such mods would be popular in all games. Instead, only a tiny handfull of games have them. In fact, if such mods were REALLY that great, game developers would just build their games around them, rather than waiting for some 2 bit coder to put one together and release it on the internet.

They wouldn't make games anymore, they'd just make graphical chat rooms where a person could make players explode and disappear whenever he wanted to for fun. Think of the time and money they'd save by making such games! Since they don't do this, this tells me that such things are not inevitable or desirable.



I don’t think you have….this turned into a debate on the first page lol…and yes this horse has been dead for months now....

Yeah, I feel like I'm repeating myself, and I keep responding to the same excuses given over and over in defense of these abusive admin mods.

I know there are other people out there who feel as I do on this, so perhaps I can demonstrate WHY we feel this way. It's not that we're some crazy stupid people, our criticisms are valid. These mods go against everything these games stand for. They don't have to, but the makers created them that way, and for whatever reason, refuse to amend their mistakes.

They can still make good what they have made bad however, if they would just do so, I'd be much happier about the situation!

shukrallah
03-21-2005, 04:35 PM
If slider would remove all the abusive commands and take Kurgan's suggestion (about not allowing any servers to use old versions) everyone would be happy.

[USA]-bLaSt
03-21-2005, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Otherwise we might as well be moving flashing orbs around the screen and writing down our scores on a piece of paper, according to whatever rules we want to imagine.

Whoa... KICK ASS!! When does it come out? Can I pre-order? :D :D :D

Rad Blackrose
03-21-2005, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by VaSBuffy Well if you end up in abusive servers just leave and go to another until you find a good one.

You say it as if there is such a thing out there.

Out of all the JA servers I have seen in the past few days with some sort of admin mod installed, each and every one of them has some form of prepubescent social outcast getting off on slapping people around, slaying and just all around being a pompous dick. There will always be those types of people, and even if you turn to another server, or a clan's leadership, or ****, even go as far as repeatedly crashing the server with particular exploits, all they do is shrug their shoulders while they reach for their console keys for /amsleep nublar101.

Believe me slider isn't for the abusive admins not at all. If he was he wouldn't have made my server a beta test server.

BULL****

Since Jedi Academy was released, I told everyone here that I was waiting for the moment that some SOB was going to appeal to the abusive admins and release an admin mod with abusive commands in place. Sure, C1 and Hex were both finding other ways to work adminmods, but it only takes one leak/hand over of a source code to go right back to square one. Guess where that hand over came from?

I think ja+ is very good it gives so much more dimension to playing jedi academy. So much more you can do and just because ja+ can make things easier. I never forgot where i came from (jk2 1.02) JA+ never changed me. I still fight the same way, do the same things. JA+ just adds a big list of other things I can do.

Hold on, if you can listen over great distances, you might be able to pick up the distinct sound that is my extreme laughter over what you just said.

Hey, look, I can sit down! Big deal. While you're at it, can you /amsit on my mine I so carelessly placed?

Not to mention that things JA+ can do have been ripped from other mods, if not by code, then by concept.

Those abusive admins they would have been abusive even without JA+. just leave the server. When I notice another server abusing the JA+ features.. Like disabling all force. I ussualy ask: You think force is lame or something? They ussualy reply with yes.

Once again:

BULL****

rcon does not enable a user to slap, slay, freeze, sleep, etc. It only allows kicking and banning. Both which are the least abusable commands. Not to mention a smart person knows how to get around banning, but I digress...

Futhermore, rcon allows access to server commands which effect EVERYONE. The administrator may be thinking that he's going to screw a "lamer," but in reality he's screwing everyone.

Just wish you guys would stop looking at just the abusive servers but also to the non abusive servers. See what a great mod JA+ is. This mod has so much potential. Like I always say. Don't take it out on the mod or slider because hes trying his best to stop people from abusing it. Take it out on the abusive admins. Their the blame. If ja+ wouldn't excist it would have been another mod who would get the blame. BLAME THE ADMINS!

This mod is at best an IRC extension, contradicting the purpose of the game. If Slider wanted to so much as remove the abusive commands, he would have thought with his head and done the same exact thing C1 and Hex were avoiding when JA was in it's infancy. And now he suddenly has a revelation and decides to do it now that his competition is out of the way?

Movie Battles II is a great mod. ForceMod is a great mod. ProMod was a great mod. Masters of the Force, when it was still in it's concepts and testing, could have been a great mod. JA+ is nothing more than a piece of rubbish that turns the game into something it isn't. A virtual chat room. when the game ORIGINALLY came out. He could have come here during the final days of Jedi Knight II to see what ****ed it up for all of us, but instead he turned his head and didn't give a damn. Look and see where Jedi Academy is now. It is a joke amongst FPS games.

If I had that chance to go back in time to fix something, I'd head back to the 1.03 days, find Dest and beat the living crap out of him until he tells me that he won't release the JediMod source code. That is where things went wrong.

Prior to JediMod++ and JA+, admins had no opportunities to be abusive. However, all it took was two people to give them the tools to abuse to their whims. Both the admins and the creators are to blame.

Druid Allanon
03-22-2005, 05:18 AM
Face it, guys, this game is nothing more than a piece of **** now. What was originally intended to be an FPS game has been converted into an RPG by the freakin' sore loser honor noobs. I don't know about you, but I've left the game long ago, occasionally coming back only after every few months just to visit some old friends and have a few good frags here and there.

BTW, for you RPG loving people out there, go play Neverwinter Nights. Leave JA and let it be the FPS game it was meant to be in the first place...

zERoCooL2479
04-19-2005, 01:39 PM
In Slider's defense, he did not physically steal the source code from my jk2 mod. Well, I don't think so unless he hacked my machine. I believe it was BOFH who donated his pipe dream of winning the mod wars to Slider along with the poorly coded source. There was also a leak at the Jedi Academy (http://www.thejediacademy.net) for those of you who don't know that, who was a traffiker of information to Slider and my upcoming ideas. I suppose that was my fault for sharing them at the time.

Slider does not yet realize his mistake as I did in jk2 where chasing the fame WAS the "cancer" to the game and I wish I could have realized that sooner. (early jk2 days) I believe things would be somewhat better than they are now. We tried to start fresh with a new game and it was only a matter of days until the admin abuse mod was introduced.

Now only if he mimmicked my jk3 mod...

c1 out!!!

Tinny
04-19-2005, 03:27 PM
You guys are being a little too hard on Slider. I being a competitive player that love nothing more than a huge fragfest of a ctf match can say that Slider has taken a great step forward with his alternate dimension feature.

Slider744
04-19-2005, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by zERoCooL2479
In Slider's defense, he did not physically steal the source code from my jk2 mod. Well, I don't think so unless he hacked my machine. I believe it was BOFH who donated his pipe dream of winning the mod wars to Slider along with the poorly coded source. There was also a leak at the Jedi Academy (http://www.thejediacademy.net) for those of you who don't know that, who was a traffiker of information to Slider and my upcoming ideas. I suppose that was my fault for sharing them at the time.



lol choosen one....
poor attempt to say again i stole code or used other code to make JA+

all the code i used in JA+ is described in the readme....
BOFH , is not described....
I made JA+ starting from the raven SDK...

i even don'"t know what is BOFH until razorace told me a few weeks ago...

why do you think i stole code or used code without telling it?

HA i know, you wonder how i can code so quickly stable and steady things?

or perhaps you are jealous so you find excuses to try to say to all the people you know wrong things about me?

CHoosen one this is not my mod which were hacked many times just after a few month after the moment where you released the first version of your JK2 academy mod.....
SO don't compare JA+ to your JKA academy mod or bofh which were a crappy and backdoored mod.....

often people tend to blame other for things which only the blamers are guiltly.

i am tired of hearing you choosen one almost when you accuse me of stealing or using other people code without giving credits.

i

DSbr-blahblah
04-19-2005, 11:03 PM
JKA is over. Dead. Unsalvageable. If you are a real player and yearn for the old days there is only one thing you can do. Reinstall JK2 and play basejk. Problem solved. Slider, your mod sucks. You changed the gameplay in ridiculous and absurd ways that have made the game basically unplayable. I won't repeat what has been said over and over about your newbish tweaks like 0 force regen, grapple hooks and jetpacks, protect + absorb at the same time, etc. baseJK2 is perfect.

Slider744
04-20-2005, 07:53 AM
JKA is over. Dead. Unsalvageable

always with you ethernal jka is dead!!!
do you have nothink more clever to say?

you advice to play on JK2 while there are less servers than in JKA?
what is the more dead game then?

lol
pathetic

zERoCooL2479
04-20-2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
lol choosen one....
poor attempt to say again i stole code or used other code to make JA+

all the code i used in JA+ is described in the readme....
BOFH , is not described....
I made JA+ starting from the raven SDK...

i even don'"t know what is BOFH until razorace told me a few weeks ago...

why do you think i stole code or used code without telling it?

HA i know, you wonder how i can code so quickly stable and steady things?

or perhaps you are jealous so you find excuses to try to say to all the people you know wrong things about me?

CHoosen one this is not my mod which were hacked many times just after a few month after the moment where you released the first version of your JK2 academy mod.....
SO don't compare JA+ to your JKA academy mod or bofh which were a crappy and backdoored mod.....

often people tend to blame other for things which only the blamers are guiltly.

i am tired of hearing you choosen one almost when you accuse me of stealing or using other people code without giving credits.

i

A few things I need to correct you on.

1) It's chosen not "choosen".

2) Someone giving code to another is not stealing, so I'm not saying you stole the code. BTW, your code is / was not stable. I know a lot of friends that had machines running it and all kinds of screw-ups were happening. I can almost bet that your client commands are like ten pages of if / else blocks.:p

Also, calling your mod JA+ like BOFH's "jediplus" kinda made it obvious.

I believe BOFH said "I gave the code to a friend so I don't care anymore" after his third release of OmniAdmin Mod. If you say you didn't know BOFH until recent, then you probably knew him under a different alias.

3) JA Mod didn't have backdoors in it, silly. Only the rumored OmniMod had those. There were no secrets in there so don't imply that.

I somewhat agree with the people that say the game is dead. No I'm not jealous of you, so don't flatter yourself. Slider, just learn from this experience. When or IF a new game like this is released, and the source is also released, do not place admin abuse commands in there. I'm sure someone else might attempt it, but at least you will know you made the right decision.

DSbr-blahblah
04-20-2005, 01:39 PM
Slider, you are a clueless, deranged and delerious newbie. By changing the standard of jka from what Raven intended with their base settings, you have made the game unplayable. There is far more competition in jk2 than jka. JKa is just a newbie paradise.

Tinny
04-20-2005, 04:48 PM
Anyone interested in anything other than ffa? Team ffa, siege, ctf... those are kind of fun too.

RpTheHotrod
04-20-2005, 06:11 PM
I love CTF, it's just that there are so few CTF servers out there that don't have bots...

DSbr-blahblah
04-20-2005, 08:54 PM
There is alot of competition in CTF in both jka and jk2. But honestly, you wouldn't be able to hang, and would just get frusturated and quit. Most of the people still playing ctf have been doing it for years.

razorace
04-21-2005, 04:10 AM
Looks like mediablitz is back.

Slider744
04-21-2005, 12:28 PM
looks like chosen one is lying when he says his JK2 academy mod has not backdoors....


Chosen one can you remember when all the hackers could go on your academy JK2 mod and becoming admin just changing their names with the good char sequence ^^^^^^^^^^^^?



[B]
So,chosen one , there are 2 possibilities:
[list=1]
you coded backdoors with the handling name engine in your mod
or you are a very bad coder that don't know how to code things properly
[/list=1]


once again i don't know what is BOFH until razorace told me a few weeks ago....

JA+ is the name of the mod a friend adviced me to set for my mod because i was searching to make a mod that handle several modules but all in a configurable way so that you can set everything ON/OFF...

that is why the name he advice me to take was JA+ because this is JA witH/+ what you want your game look like

DSbr-blahblah
04-21-2005, 01:00 PM
I want to make this real simple so that there is no confusion:

Basejka - Designed by Raven, trusted by ID to balance and make such games as Quake 4 which will definately be one of the largest games ever made. A highly respected game developer. Professional devs with almost a decade of game balancing under their belts.


JA+ MOD - Designed by Slider, an amature coder with no experience who has never been trusted by anyone to balance anything. A newbie in the game with no respect from the highly skilled and older members of the JK community.


So...which version do you think is going to be more balanced for competitive play?

zERoCooL2479
04-21-2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
looks like chosen one is lying when he says his JK2 academy mod has not backdoors....


Chosen one can you remember when all the hackers could go on your academy JK2 mod and becoming admin just changing their names with the good char sequence ^^^^^^^^^^^^?


you coded backdoors with the handling name engine in your mod
or you are a very bad coder that don't know how to code things properly
[/list=1]


once again i don't know what is BOFH until razorace told me a few weeks ago....

JA+ is the name of the mod a friend adviced me to set for my mod because i was searching to make a mod that handle several modules but all in a configurable way so that you can set everything ON/OFF...

that is why the name he advice me to take was JA+ because this is JA witH/+ what you want your game look like

LOL...One thing you do good, is always entertain me.

The "^^^^^" character sequence was a bug, not a backdoor. It had to do with an overwrite of the bit in the netname define I did when I was playing around with things and forgot to put it back, hence earlier releases didnt have the bug; my bad *shrug*

Possibilities:
1) For your information the commands are not dependant on name handling code, I don't know why you said / think that. Wait and see when you download the source when its released.

2) Now your trying to insult my coding effort? Do you even know what language you are coding the mod in right now? It's fairly easy to code an admin mod, so don't think your mod is deserving of accolades because if you ask anyone here, there are probably 1 or 2 people that actually like your mod.

In closing, this is not a flame, but a simple rebuttle to your post.

Slider744
04-21-2005, 03:44 PM
Indeed admin mod requiere 10 lines of code....

i made an admin mod starting from the raven SDK without using any other mod very easily......
All you did with your admin mod in JK2 was just 5 lines of code put with the vulcanus admin mod which had almost all compaired to what you added in your JK2 mod....
SO what you coded after the code of Vulcanus admin mod is just 5 lines of code with some bugs/backdoors in your code....

if you think JA+ is just an admin mod you didn't understand nothing to JA+.....

Chosen one if you say you just mistook when coding those bugs i call backdoor (that enable anybody to have full admin access on all server using your mod), i say you are a poor coder.........

So don't continue to instult me trying to say JA+ is unstable (which is not true) and trying to say i stole code or used code from other like this BOFH code..

Choosen you are pathetic and have no escuses with the backdoor you coded in your mod....

zERoCooL2479
04-21-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
Indeed admin mod requiere 10 lines of code....

i made an admin mod starting from the raven SDK without using any other mod very easily......
All you did with your admin mod in JK2 was just 5 lines of code put with the vulcanus admin mod which had almost all compaired to what you added in your JK2 mod....
SO what you coded after the code of Vulcanus admin mod is just 5 lines of code with some bugs/backdoors in your code....

if you think JA+ is just an admin mod you didn't understand nothing to JA+.....

Chosen one if you say you just mistook when coding those bugs i call backdoor (that enable anybody to have full admin access on all server using your mod), i say you are a poor coder.........

So don't continue to instult me trying to say JA+ is unstable (which is not true) and trying to say i stole code or used code from other like this BOFH code..

Choosen you are pathetic and have no escuses with the backdoor you coded in your mod....

The first version of JA Mod wasn't just five lines of code added, I also changed the name of the mod :P

By your logic of a "poor coder" you must think that anyone who creates bugs are "poor coders"; therefore all programmers are poor coders.

Interesting theory...Perhaps they will add that to college courses so we can all be a programmer that doesn't create bugs.

Have you ever taken a look at your own readme file? "Fix this in the new version, fix that " I have to say your consistancy in coding is by far sub par to an average programmer.

Welp, I think I'm done with you now so I will go read something worth my time. Ciao and good luck with your mod ;-)

Slider744
04-21-2005, 05:03 PM
yes you are right
this is why i accused you to have coded backdoors in your mod because i think you are not a bad coder and therefore you couldn't coded this so big bug without making it intentionally.......


simple question why you spend to much time releasing the coded source of your mod if it is not because it take time to remove all the backdoor you coded?


and all the Fix you are refering are mainly fix of the basejka engine in my mod....


but you can't understand that chosen one as you spend more time to code backdoor instead of correcting things in the game

zERoCooL2479
04-21-2005, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Slider744
yes you are right
this is why i accused you to have coded backdoors in your mod because i think you are not a bad coder and therefore you couldn't coded this so big bug without making it intentionally.......


simple question why you spend to much time releasing the coded source of your mod if it is not because it take time to remove all the backdoor you coded?


and all the Fix you are refering are mainly fix of the basejka engine in my mod....


but you can't understand that chosen one as you spend more time to code backdoor instead of correcting things in the game

Wow, you are quick with responses, were you just awaiting my reply?

Anyway, it has taken a long time because honestly I hadn't had time to prep the code nicely. What have I been doing in the code? Basically going in and commenting everything I did so that people won't have too much trouble navigating through it.

Seriously, you need to get off of the accusation that you would think I would code that purposly. I was almost as shocked as everyone else was when someone told me that bug. Whoever figured that out, I sure as hell wish they were on my QA team. After I heard, I figured out what it was and told Orion, who by the way, didn't fix its entirety because he did some other things in there.

As for correcting things, there was nothing wrong with the base code. The few bugs that some of the other developers shared with us, I patched those in.

I think I've had enough bickering about everything here, I'm sure everyone else is sick of hearing it, so I will leave you alone now and hopefully you'll do the same.

Like I said before...Good luck!

Slider744
04-21-2005, 06:14 PM
hea i also think you should stop accusing me of wrong things (source code stolen, BOFH code used, and a lot of other things) if you don't want me to remind all the crappy thing you made...

zERoCooL2479
04-21-2005, 06:19 PM
Ah c'mon, JA Mod wasn't all that bad...It could've been better without those commands though...heh.

Kurgan
08-06-2005, 03:47 PM
JA Mod (Jedi Academy Mod I mean) was that bad... because of popularizing the abusive commands. So it could have been stopped a few times:

1) Don't release the mod to the public, ignoring the demands to do so.

2) Don't release the source or permission to use the code, despite demands to do so.

3) Remove the commands immediately and declare it closed source (might be too late then already though).

Instead you waited until JA Reloaded to "come clean" and by then the damage was done.

JA+ obviously gave the snowball a big push and gathered a lot of weight to it, but you (or your predecessor really) started the abusive snowball rolling... sorry to say.


There is one thing that admin mods are good for, and that's for machinima (making "movies" using the in-game animations). The various emotes, ability to teleport, slap, sleep or slay, spawn, empower people at any time is convenient. It's even more convenient than using cheats. So I will give the admin mods that one credit. Role Playing in JA/JK2 really deserved its own mod. An "honorz mod" could have been done without the abusive stuff, really. In the end this "catch all" approach to admin mods ended up promoting the abusive end, and shutting out the other styles of gameplay, promoting the "Virtual chatroom" phenomena, scaring away true players. That's why it was bad, in a nutshell.

Kurgan
08-06-2005, 03:57 PM
PS: Let's try to leave off the flaming please folks. We can disagree, criticize, and even berate a thing (like a mod) without flaming the PERSON who made it. And constructive advice is best if you want things to improve.

I think mods that do what CO and Slider's mods set out to do in the first place could have been done without using the abusive commands as a crutch for so long. Some mod makers don't wish to admit wrong-doing by relying on those commands, others are willing. In the end the best thing for the community is improvement. I'm not saying dwell on the past, I'm saying learn from it. ;)

Amidala from Chop Shop
08-06-2005, 03:57 PM
*cough* talk about reviving old threads

Kurgan, we're having a nice polite conversation about "what might have been" over here http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=150582

RpTheHotrod
08-06-2005, 04:01 PM
Just a friendly reminder...

This thread can get out of hand fast, so make sure to keep it mature and of good attitude. I've been kind of staying out of it since Kurgan is active in it, but still...watch yourselves. :)

Amidala from Chop Shop
08-06-2005, 04:58 PM
...watch yourselves.

Um, this thread is more than 3 months old. Kurgan made 2 posts to revive it, I made one short post telling him about a more recent thread. Is it me or Kurgan who should be "watching ourselves"? What are you so worried about happening in a 3 month old thread?

acdcfanbill
08-07-2005, 06:02 PM
i have no idea what the heck happened here... :s

riceplant
08-08-2005, 07:38 AM
Reading this thread, it seems apparent that slider cares almost as little for the honor players as he does for 'real' players. The only argument I can think of for not reversing the dimension things is that the admins enjoy abusing new players, and would not have the opportunity to do so if the players entered the 'real' game by default. This would seem to indicate that slider does not care for anything other than the prestige he gains from the abusive admins, as it has already been brought to his attention that many, if not most honor 'admins' would not tell players about the other dimension. Not when they can have fun slapping and teleporting them around instead. This itself is suggested by the survey mentioned by Amidala. Slider, it says something about you that I have only just arrived, and already I dislike you. That last remark is not meant as a flame, but a suggestion that a change of attitude may be in order. One last comment. Laying the blame at the door of the 'admins' is like an illegal armourer selling guns to gangsters saying something like: "Guns don't shoot people, they can only be shot at them".

Amidala from Chop Shop
08-08-2005, 10:28 AM
To slider's credit, he did make the Alternate Dimension the default entering dimension when JA+ 2.3 final was released (as I mentioned above, this thread is three months old). Server operators can change it to make the Primary Dimension the entering dimension, or completely disable the Alternate Dimension, and some have done exactly that. Some installed 2.3 obviously without reading any of the documentation, then asked "how come I can't get the grapple to work"? They had entered the Alternate Dimension by default, where the grapple is disabled, and either didn't realize it or didn't understand the properties of the dimensions. Instead of just using /amaltdim as soon as they entered the server, they reversed the default behavior or disabled the Alternate Dimension completely instead.

RpTheHotrod
08-08-2005, 05:19 PM
Um, this thread is more than 3 months old. Kurgan made 2 posts to revive it, I made one short post telling him about a more recent thread. Is it me or Kurgan who should be "watching ourselves"? What are you so worried about happening in a 3 month old thread?


If you havn't noticed, the thread was "revived"...meaning...it is going to be active again, so watch what you post. We don't need fights and insults being thrown back and forth. Keep it mature and civilized ( spelling? :p )

Amidala from Chop Shop
08-08-2005, 09:05 PM
Just a friendly reminder...

This thread can get out of hand fast, so make sure to keep it mature and of good attitude. I've been kind of staying out of it since Kurgan is active in it, but still...watch yourselves.



If you havn't noticed, the thread was "revived"...meaning...it is going to be active again, so watch what you post. We don't need fights and insults being thrown back and forth. Keep it mature and civilized ( spelling? )


Yeah, I went back through the thread from the beginning, and now I see what you mean about things getting out of hand, like this guy for example:


Slider..... I guess you're a moron..simply put.


I'm talking about the version I downloaded TWO DAYS AGO...and again I asked if there was a new one released yesterday...and you havn't spoken up about it.

So you can go shove it.


I'm talking what's currently IN. I can join a server with you and show you all the numerous problems I've seen in the release I downloaded again...since you are slow...I will spell it out for you


T W O D A Y S A G O


so I assume it's the "latest" release...and AGAIN...I am asking if you released a "new" version yesterday.


I play the game everyday, not just writing up stuff.

Keep up your insults here...you won't like it.


All those I posted are in the version of this file

japlus_Plugin_V1.3beta2.zip


is that your latest?

If so...then shut the frick up until you know what you're talking about.


Since you are again slow, I will REPOST what I said so you can read it again and hopefully understand. I really do not want to report it in the language a 4 year old might understand.



Let's see...I guess I'll have to break this down for someone as unintelligent as you.


Thanks for the warning, that's really really really really good advice, and I hope everyone follows it. (P.S. I saved the complete text of that person's original post just in case it gets "revised" or accidentally deleted);)

DruggedSith
08-08-2005, 09:40 PM
My suggestion for Slider: Go pay for an MMORPG instead of trying to make JKA one.

RpTheHotrod
08-08-2005, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I went back through the thread from the beginning, and now I see what you mean about things getting out of hand, like this guy for example:



Thanks for the warning, that's really really really really good advice, and I hope everyone follows it. (P.S. I saved the complete text of that person's original post just in case it gets "revised" or accidentally deleted);)

That's what I'm here for. I was saying the same thing over and over and over and over to Slider and all he did was insult me saying I didn't know what I was talking about. I made that post to finally get his attention, and I then joined the server and showed him I knew exactly what I was talking about. That was the event that made Slider change. He recognized that he was wrong, and now he's far more willing to take in input from people about his mod.

However, seeing you completely ignore everyone else's attacks and purposly single out a post of mine that had a purpose of waking slider up...not to mention you having an attitude against me for "reasons" you know about already, I see you are here with the purpose of flaming these forums. Your actions will be discussed with the staff.

El Sitherino
08-08-2005, 10:41 PM
zOMG flame war of a slightly higher intellect.

Can't we all just get along and say admin mods are wrong?

Jed
08-08-2005, 10:57 PM
Hey, Amidala, how about you stop being a massive, politically correct jerk?

I don't care who the hell you think you are. Knock it off, or I'll knock it off for you.

acdcfanbill
08-08-2005, 11:51 PM
okeee dokee no offense, but i think this has spiriled into the depths of dispaire and is never coming back.