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VampireNaomi
03-21-2005, 09:03 AM
We all have built up expectations about Psychonauts and some of you have had about two years to wait for it.

Do you think you will be able to take an objective look at the game, or will you be blinded by your desire to love it? If there is a mistake or something bad about it, will you be able to point at it and say "This is wrong"?

Just curious about what people think. I am not too sure about myself, sadly.

Thrik
03-21-2005, 09:50 AM
I always look at things in an objective fashion, which I guess also makes me a fairly cynical person. Whilst I do have faith that Tim will, gauging from his track record thus far and everything I've seen leading up to now, produce a good game.. I do keep my mind open to the possibility that it may just not work out so well. I mean, if a game's not fun, I'm not going to pretend it is purely because I've been so excited about it. Take Tribes Vengeance for example -- the third in the Tribes series. Tribes was probably my most-enjoyed game in a long time, having played it almost constantly online from its release in 2002 to mid 2004.

When a third game was set to release in late 2004, I was more excited than I can even begin to measure. I was telling everybody about it, spreading the word, keeping people up to date on screenshots, and generally just anticipating it to an incredible degree. Then it came out. It was a decent game, and you could burn plenty of hours on it, but it wasn't even close to reaching how much I loved the first. Everyone else felt the same way, and ultimately the game bombed within a month. The same happened to me with PlanetSide. I was anticipating that game for years, and when it came out it was just a huge disappointment.

So, yes. I feel that I can judge games fairly without letting my personal anticipation cloud my view. I've also been conditioned into just ignoring hype after the aforementioned disappointments, and judge games on what friends' testimonials and videos say.

Valkian
03-21-2005, 12:00 PM
Just to be brief. Tim Schafer wrote it and directed it. What could be wrong?

If someone is dissapointed by the game then he/she doesn't deserves to play it.

Tim is a genius, is one of those few people that no matter what they do, they do it flawless.

So my advice is that you receive Psychonauts with arms, mind and heart wide open...

VampireNaomi
03-21-2005, 01:13 PM
That's exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about, Valkian. :p We all know Schafer rocks, but since we haven't played the game yet, we can't tell if it has flaws and what they probably are -- though I doubt there will ever be a completely perfect game.

Joshi
03-21-2005, 02:44 PM
I have a tendancy to be swayed by bad previews and reviews, or simply a bad feeling towards something, rather than a good view of something. My meaning is that if I think I'm going to love something (like Psychonauts) I'll play it and then make up my mind as to whether it was good or not, despite what I thought before (a good example of this was the Matrix sequels, I was actually pretty hyped up about them before I saw them).

But if I'm looking forward to something and then read or hear something which tells me it's going to be bad, or if I just start off with a bad feeling about something, I generally can't be swayed no matter what for some reason. Pity, but that's how I am.

That said, I'll probably look at Psychonauts apprehensively. Plus there's the fact that, in my mind, it may not work, as despite Schafer being a god and his work, innovative or not, has always been good, he is taking a risk here with something as genuinely contemporary as this, and not all contemporary things work.

Valkian
03-22-2005, 12:06 PM
Due to the lack of explanation I gave here goes a more serious one: I certainly look at games in an objective way, and not only games also movies, music, comics, book
and any other art form.
I think no one here is in the position to point and say: "This is wrong!". You could say: "I don't like this" we all have different tastes. You could only say that something is wrong ONLY if you CAN MAKE IT better.
A team of 30 people spent about three years of their lives making this game, and you are NO ONE to point with your meaningless finger and say: "This is wrong!" because I BET my own life that you CAN'T even make something half that creative. NOT even if you spend your whole life trying.
I agree, there is no perfect game. BUT there is a perfect game for me, that may not be perfect for you, and that's how the world spins.
So go ahead, play the game, and then say:"I love it" or "I like it" or "I don't like it" or "I hate it" and then go on with your life. But don't you DARE to JUDGE, no one is in position to JUDGE anything here, nor you, me or Oh-so-mighty-Mr.Schafer. No one.
I could also bet my life that at least someone is going to complain about my site (http://dig.mixnmojo.com 1st link and I'm in shame) when I release it (soon, I promise) but I'm sure that if I say to that person: "Fine, you are in charge of this site now BUT I'm taking away all I've done so far, so go ahead and start from the scratch" he/she would piss on his/her pants. Everyone loves talking about anything. But the ones that actually DO something (and do it well) are a minority.
Ok, now you can go on with your pathetic lives. Yeah, I'm pissed off. So what?....I need a drink...

P.S: You can call me Sam, but NEVER EVER call me just Valkian. For you it's: "Oh fearless light among shadows, lift me up powerful Valkian" It's not that hard.

VampireNaomi
03-22-2005, 12:50 PM
I hope I didn't offend you, oh fearless light among shadows, lift me up powerful Valkian. :rolleyes:

In my opinion not liking something and saying it aloud is exactly what judging is. We are just gamers, so of course most of us can't make anything even nearly as creative as the games we play. However, using that as an excuse for not having the right to judge something really pisses me off. If I pay for a game and then think there is something wrong with it, I'm going to say it.

You can say that something is wrong, even if you don't possess the talent to improve it. It's called criticism, even if it's only a matter of an opinion.

Metallus
03-22-2005, 02:45 PM
I think there will always be someone who won't like games based mostly on the fact that 99% of the world does. For whatever reason, pages and pages of good reviews, or alternately, years of fanboyism directed at a title we haven't played tends to turn some observers in the opposite direction; it could instill within them the need to point out everything wrong with it, or mock the people who choose to be overly excited about the game.

I think some skepticism is healthy for upcoming titles, but I think going to extremes in either the fanboy direction or the cynical direction, for Psychonauts or any yet-to-be-released title is a mistake. If you try hard enough to dislike a game, chances are you'll find your reasoning as you play, or fulfill your a priori theories on why the game sucks.

Personally, I didn't really care so much about Psychonauts when it was first announced. I kind of shared in some peoples' disappointment at the time that it wasn't an adventure game, and that it was going to be an Xbox title. Though I was somewhat jazzed that Tim Schafer and other people from the Grim team had their own deal going and got to make a game they wanted to make, I was only following the game half-heartedly.

Gradually I got more and more into the game (kind of at the same time I started to realize that maybe Adventure Games weren't necessarily always the best things ever, ever), and now I'm practically foaming at the mouth for it, but I still try to maintain a degree of reservation about it, or failing that, fake it.

For the record, I thought the concept for Grim Fandango was confusing and kind of dumb when I first heard about it. I bought it anyway, after not being able to think of a good enough reason not to, and now it's my favorite game ever. I didn't read any previews or media snipets about the game; I bought it based on my enjoyment of various other Lucasarts titles, and it turned out to be a great surprise. I just hope that I can be surprised by something in Psychonauts in the same way, after enduring the media blitz of the last couple months. The coverage Psychonauts is getting is pretty damn necessary to sell such a unique game, though, and it's probably better that it's hyped up too much, rather than going completely under the radar like Grim.

Joshi
03-22-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Valkian
Due to the lack of explanation I gave here goes a more serious one: I certainly look at games in an objective way, and not only games also movies, music, comics, book
and any other art form.
I think no one here is in the position to point and say: "This is wrong!". You could say: "I don't like this" we all have different tastes. You could only say that something is wrong ONLY if you CAN MAKE IT better.
A team of 30 people spent about three years of their lives making this game, and you are NO ONE to point with your meaningless finger and say: "This is wrong!" because I BET my own life that you CAN'T even make something half that creative. NOT even if you spend your whole life trying.
I agree, there is no perfect game. BUT there is a perfect game for me, that may not be perfect for you, and that's how the world spins.
So go ahead, play the game, and then say:"I love it" or "I like it" or "I don't like it" or "I hate it" and then go on with your life. But don't you DARE to JUDGE, no one is in position to JUDGE anything here, nor you, me or Oh-so-mighty-Mr.Schafer. No one.
I could also bet my life that at least someone is going to complain about my site (http://dig.mixnmojo.com 1st link and I'm in shame) when I release it (soon, I promise) but I'm sure that if I say to that person: "Fine, you are in charge of this site now BUT I'm taking away all I've done so far, so go ahead and start from the scratch" he/she would piss on his/her pants. Everyone loves talking about anything. But the ones that actually DO something (and do it well) are a minority.
Ok, now you can go on with your pathetic lives. Yeah, I'm pissed off. So what?....I need a drink...

P.S: You can call me Sam, but NEVER EVER call me just Valkian. For you it's: "Oh fearless light among shadows, lift me up powerful Valkian" It's not that hard.

Um, who exactly are you talking to here? Because if that was a general message to everyone, it was kinda harsh. If it was a specfic message to VampireNaomi (intended for everyone to see, obviously) then it was still a little harsh, especially when you said that you'd bet your own life she couldn't come up with anything half as imginative ever. How exactly do you know that, do you know VampireNaomi as a person, do you know anyone here well enough to make that assumption? For all you know, there could be little Tim Scafer's here waiting for that oppertunity to let their imagination run wild and create something that may one day rival the work of Schafer, anythings possible.

Also, if you can give a valid reason as to why something has something wrong with it, the creator can generally use that in improving that thing or in the next thing they do, so in effect, that criticism has made a change. There's no problem in saying it's wrong.

Also saying somethings wrong doesn't depend on the fact that you should be able to do better. A mathematician could look at an extremely complex equation that no one could solve and put down an answer to it. If the answer is wrong another mathematician could look at it and say so without saying that he could solve it. I could quite easily say that psychonauts was bad because after twenty minutes it got boring (I'm talking hypothetical here, this probably won't happen). This doesn't mean that I could create a similar game that kept me enthralled for hours on end, the only way I'd suggest that is if I said something like "I could do better than that!" at which point I would expect someone to come along and tell me to do just that, which would put me in my place.

Valkian
03-22-2005, 07:35 PM
Okay you bunch of BLIND people. (Mommy please don't read this, I'm so harsh)
At first I was writing it to VampireNaomi, I'm not mad at her, in fact if I could I would give her a big hug (no kidding). But now I will talk to all.

Art is not mathematics. Art is never wrong or right. Art is good or bad, great or horrible. Saying that some piece of art is wrong(without having the creativity/skills to improve it) is NOT criticism. That is being an ignorant (sorry for being so harsh) When you go out saying "This is wrong!" you are claiming it to be an universal truth (no matter if people hear you or not). Criticism is great, IT's opinion, It's saying what you like and what you don't like and why.
ART is NOT Science. They are extremely different things. So please use the correct words. Don't use words like WRONG or JUDGE because this are powerful words and you have to able to understand them in order to use them.
Anything is possible, I agree. And if among us is a future Tim Schafer or Ron Gilbert or Dave Grossman then they could play a game and say "he he, watch this, that skull bridge is wrong, even a jerk like me can make it better" that would be great.
Sorry for being so harsh. Sorry for opening my heart to you. Sorry for saying what I think. Sorry for stealing TV cable. Sorry for not having played Monkey Island 4. Sorry for not finishing The Dig Museum on schedule. Sorry for eating all the cookies on the jar mom. Sorry for selling mugs. Sorry for being so friendly. Sorry for making that horrible audio drama. Sorry for spoiling you that I had an interview with Noah Falstein. So Sorry.

Metallus
03-22-2005, 08:38 PM
MAKE SENSE

JofaGuht
03-22-2005, 09:23 PM
Samm .I'm sorry but it kind of sounds like you're talking on a different thread, even though the subject matter is the same, because you're treating us like we are being horribly mean to you and Tim Schafer when we're not. I actually can't find anything on this thread that feels remotely similar to what you're accusing us of saying.

As for subjectivity, it's true Psychonauts may be perfect for you, but it might not be. It's all about what strikes a personal chord in you.

Take David Lynch for example. He is definitely an intellegent guy and may even hold the title of genius. His films are pure mysteries and usually he'll touch every loose end but leaves it to the viewer to tie them up. Because of this, his films are incredibly subjective. His mysteries always feel perfect, but usually only one in all of his films will strike a personal chord in a viewer. Mulholland Drive, Blue Velvet, and Eraserhead were all films that were laid out incredibly well and explored deep themes, and I appreciate how that happened. But I didn't like those movies that much. They were good, but because I can't quite find much of myself in them, I don't really care for them. As for Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me, that is my all-time favorite film ever. Not because they were any better than the other films I mentioned, but because they struck a personal chord in me that the others didn't. It was more than just a good film, it MEANT something to me. A lot fellow Lynch fans hated Fire Walk with Me, but loved Mulholland Drive. I can't disagree with them. Mulholland Drive had just as much intellegence as FWWM, my favorite film ever. It means Mullholland Drive just meant something to them that it didn't to me.

My point is: just because Tim Schafer creates excellent stories doesn't mean each one is going to mean something to you. Grim Fandango meant huge to me. Full Throttle, though a good story, didn't hit that personal chord and I'm willing to accept the fact Psychonauts may not hit it either, as brilliant as it may be.

VampireNaomi
03-23-2005, 07:41 AM
Sam, perhaps we can agree if I say that I should have phrased it "I think this is wrong". I didn't mean it as in "I don't like this part so it's wrong, period", but "I don't like this part so perhaps this game wasn't that good for me after all".

Of course not everyone is going like/hate the same thing. Many people absolutely detested the box puzzles in the third Broken Sword, but I really liked them.

What I meant with this thread is that are we able to admit to ourselves that there may be something that we don't like in P'nauts. It's psychology. People tend to trick themselves into loving something that they really want to like, because they can't stand the thought of disappointment.

Valkian
03-23-2005, 09:14 AM
Sorry if I wasn't making myself that clear. (Though I believe It was logic)
I wasn't just talking of Tim Schafer and Psychonauts. I was talking about art in general.

I agree with most of the things you are saying now. But still keep my position, and I think you are not getting my point.
But let's just call it a day...

P.S: I really want to see Blue Velvet

VampireNaomi
03-23-2005, 10:14 AM
If I understood it right, we are talking about different things. No wonder we don't get each other's points. :D

Joshi
03-23-2005, 11:49 AM
Okay, so that I wasn't expecting. Okay, so I deserved the bit about art not being like science or maths and agree that to say art is wrong is... well wrong and that criticism is different and so on. What I didn't expect was the loaded sarcasm at the end, in my opinion it just seemed slapped on their for the sake of it. I mean seriously, was it needed?

Being nice isn't all that hard you know, you just don't say bad things when they aren't needed.

Valkian
03-23-2005, 01:17 PM
It was friendly sarcasm. I'm not mad or angry with any of you.
But now this thread is so confussing that I don't even know if there is something else to say...
Let's all go back home and watch tv.

Joshi
03-23-2005, 02:43 PM
Meh, whatever, in conclusion, we all have the right to our opinion and I think this games gonna be good, but I'm open to it being anything.

Wow, this died down faster than any internet argument I've ever been in.

James Isaac
03-23-2005, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by VampireNaomi
We all have built up expectations about Psychonauts and some of you have had about two years to wait for it.

Do you think you will be able to take an objective look at the game, or will you be blinded by your desire to love it? If there is a mistake or something bad about it, will you be able to point at it and say "This is wrong"?

Just curious about what people think. I am not too sure about myself, sadly.

I've not really been following the development of the game that closely. So when I play it, I won't be expecting anything ;)

JofaGuht
03-23-2005, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Valkian
It was friendly sarcasm. I'm not mad or angry with any of you.
But now this thread is so confussing that I don't even know if there is something else to say...
It's all good. It's true we sometimes take things too personally here. Something about Schafer fans....we tend to be more sensitive. Hmm... we should look into that.

Anyway, my basic point with the Lynch analygy is that even if something is perfect and flawless doesn't mean you're necessarliy going to like it. I appreciate the excellent talent and flawless construction of Cradle of Filth's music, but I can't listen to it without getting a migraine. But it seems to tap into my brother's emotions a lot.
Originally posted by Valkian
P.S: I really want to see Blue Velvet
It's worth it. Not all of it is my cup of tea, but Frank Booth is one of the most interesting characters in a film. And of course, the music's awesome.

AgentJess
05-03-2005, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by VampireNaomi
That's exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about, Valkian. :p We all know Schafer rocks, but since we haven't played the game yet, we can't tell if it has flaws and what they probably are -- though I doubt there will ever be a completely perfect game.

I just beat it, and I have to say, it didn't actually have any huge flaws to it. I loved it, to be blunt. The only slightly bad thing I can think of is that the levels get a bit too difficult towards the end, to the point of being frustrating. But the rest of the game is good enough to make up for it, believe me.