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View Full Version : Debate Bioware Vs. Obsidian, who makes KOTOR 3? If you could decide.


Darth Havok
08-11-2005, 09:22 AM
I love both KOTOR games, but I have a hard time chosing which one is better, since they both had their good points. Lets crack some skulls and decide who was better, shall we?

FiEND_138
08-11-2005, 09:32 AM
Obsidian.

Don't really want another story spoon fed to me like Knights 1 was.
Avellone has a direction he'd like to see the story go, I wouldn't mind seeing where it ends up.
Hopefully LA got the point that you can't hack a story to bits & up release from all of the fan backlash.
*Imagines what TSL could have been with a realistic Dev time table...*

Darth Havok
08-11-2005, 09:42 AM
I have to agree with Fiend on this one. I think Bioware had a more polished product, but with all the new features, and all the great charactors that came with TSL, I have to say that Obsidian did a very nice job. Despite all the glitches you run into in that game, the story was great, it felt like a constant plot climax, the entire way through, something interesting was always happening. Though, at the end of the game, I did feel as though much of the story was left out, it felt unfinished. What about that part a Mal 5 when Goto comes to the ship where the remote is, why is it you don't see him do anything in the end? The planet still explodes if you are light. you would think you would have at least seen him try something. It is a tough nut to crack, but in the end, I think Obsidians product was more in depth, and much more interesting. I do think, however, too much of the story was placed in the players hands. Not in the way that you had influence over the story, but more like, if you didn't talk to someone, you didnt know that part of the story, and It might have been important, thats where KOTOR 1 comes in, I mean, I really liked how the charactors would stop to talk to you, rather than you having to worry about pissing them off so much you never ever heard from them again, you know? As cool as the influence thing was, it could be a bitch sometimes.

stingerhs
08-11-2005, 12:22 PM
OE all the way. give them a good timetable, and i believe they would turn out one of the best RPG's of all time. not to mention it would be difficult to hand off your own story and have someone else attempt to finish it for you. things would definately get lost in translation.

The Source
08-11-2005, 12:28 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, and children of all ages:
In this corner: KotOR I - Created by BioWare from the ground up. Every small detail created by BioWare.

And in the other corner: KotOR II - Base engine created by BioWare, base clothes created by BioWare. Story and small additions created by Obsidian.

BioWare wins by default!!!

KotOR I didn't need new features, for it was the first of its kind. KotOR I had a complete and comprehensive story. Side quests in KotOR I were not necessary for the main story to be played. KotOR I just kicked but!!!

Mira Dona
08-11-2005, 12:31 PM
Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.

The Source
08-11-2005, 12:33 PM
Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.

Yes! Listen to Mira! :)

stingerhs
08-11-2005, 01:15 PM
But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. funny you should mention that whenever it took Bioware THREE patches to finally get Kotor I as polished as it is. and considering the time span between the Xbox version and the PC version, i would hardly consider the PC version to be a 'polished' game on release. heck, a lot of reviews docked the PC version points because of all the bugs.KotOR I - Created by BioWare from the ground up. Every small detail created by BioWare.well, not exactly. remember that Kotor I was built directly from the NWN engine. even with the consideration that Bioware developed the NWN engine, Bioware still borrowed from an existing engine to create the game, just as OE did with TSL.

Mira Dona
08-11-2005, 01:29 PM
funny you should mention that whenever it took Bioware THREE patches to finally get Kotor I as polished as it is.

And in that same spirit, just many patches has it taken Obsidian in order to achieve the same effect?


and considering the time span between the Xbox version and the PC version, i would hardly consider the PC version to be a 'polished' game on release. heck, a lot of reviews docked the PC version points because of all the bugs.

I only got both games about. . . . 2 months ago, so I really have no frame of refference for the Xbox to PC delay.



Listen, I love both games very much. But KOTOR1 was, for me, the better game with a wonderful story and superior characters.

IndianaSolo
08-11-2005, 01:58 PM
Obsidian. Their story is deeper, and given a better planning schedule and more polish time, their game would have surpassed BioWare's by a long shot.

Put it this way, it's about 50/50 when people talk about which one was better, yet Obsidian's wasn't even near it's full potential due to time constraints. If they can match BioWare with a half complete game, how much better would they be with a complete game.

Also, it's Obsidian's writers (mainly Chris A.) who thought up the ending of TSL, so they'd be the best ones to finish what they started since they knew where they were going with it.

The Source
08-11-2005, 03:11 PM
And in that same spirit, just many patches has it taken Obsidian in order to achieve the same effect?

Listen, I love both games very much. But KOTOR1 was, for me, the better game with a wonderful story and superior characters.

Yes! I 100% agree! Listen to Mira! You go Lady! :)

Obsidian made one patch, which didn't fix a damn thing. Therefore, BioWare's attention to pleasing the customer is supperior. Their story is epic and much more enjoyable. There is no way in hell they are considered 50/50. I too enjoyed KotOR II, but I 100% prefered the fun, epic story, and the premise of KotOR I.

Smilodon
08-11-2005, 03:23 PM
[x] Obsidian for their great story-telling and gameplay features added in TSL, though I have some worries concerning timetable and support...

Mira Dona
08-11-2005, 03:30 PM
Yes! I 100% agree! Listen to Mira! You go girl! :)



Thanks!

Minor correction though, I'm not a girl :P

The Source
08-11-2005, 04:04 PM
Sorry! Lady Mira!

Mira Dona
08-11-2005, 04:17 PM
Sorry! Lady Mira!

In other words, I'm a guy!

Sorry about the confusion there. . .

The Source
08-11-2005, 04:23 PM
? Ah Sorry Man! ?
There are so many questions that come to mind..
Lol.....

Mira Dona
08-11-2005, 04:43 PM
? Ah Sorry Man! ?
There are so many questions that come to mind..
Lol.....


Haha, nah don't worry about it it's cool. And certainly not the first time either, at least nobody was hitting on me!

Anyway, back to the topic. . .

Jeff
08-11-2005, 05:13 PM
Bioware vs Obsidian... That is a tough one. On one hand, Obsidian would be better at finishing their own story, but Bioware is definately overall a better developer. I know people give props to Obsidian for making all the new features, but Bioware would have had new features on a sequal game also; you can't have new features on the first game in a series. So I say Bioware because they can still include the new features and then some that Obsidian did, and I think they can make a better story.

nas77
08-11-2005, 06:19 PM
^^ I half-agree with DarthMoeller. Obsidian is given a great amount of praise for the features they included in TSL, but it is entirely plausible that Bioware could have come up with similarly entertaining features had they been given another crack at KOTOR. I don't believe influence, better-looking robes, training apprentices etc. would necessarily have been beyond Bioware, considering the success they had in producing the great KOTOR 1. Ppl shouldn't be so hasty in deciding that Obsidian is a better developer than Bioware.

But... in terms of who should do KOTOR 3, regardless of who actually is the better developer - I think that task has to lie with Obsidian, purely for the sake of story cohesion. They seem to have had some idea of where KOTOR was going to go after TSL, and I think they should continue their story. If Bioware was back in charge, they may find themselves disagreeing with what Obsidian had put before them in TSL and 'force' their own story for KOTOR 3 within the established framework of TSL, which could make for a greater mess than Malachor 5. Obsidian, on the other hand, may create a better flow.

Also, much of the criticism levelled at Obsidian is not necessarily their fault, but rather LucasArts'.

TheOssusKeeper
08-11-2005, 06:29 PM
i would say Bioware... doesn't matter about the patches, at least they finally got it...
can't say the same for OE... they were supposed to come out with two patches for sure, only one was released and it was still very buggy... as for the second one, where is it? not to mention the story of k2 was so incoherent and like a pumas stone, full of holes and hard to follow. And the cut scenes, some of them are just way unnecessary, like Goto zapping the driod ball in the engine room and destroying it, then the next thing you see it's floating around in the cargo bay!?! what's up with that? However, i do admit that OE did bring a few cool new features to the game, weapon switching for one example... But if i could choose which game maker to build k3, i would go with Bioware, they could bring the same new features that OE did to the game and make a better, more cohesive story and more stable game.

Mlyke
08-11-2005, 06:48 PM
Obsidian definetly. i absolutely loved KOTOR 2 even more then KOTOR 1..actually no well..if it was't for bastillia(sp)? They rushed Obsidian to make a poopload of money on christmas. by releaseing KOTOR 2 and i believe if it waited atleast another month or two it could have rivaled KOTOR 1 Even the Obsidian devs asked to release and fix the uncut content but nooo!..anyways my choice would be Obsidian as you can see

Vladimir-Vlada
08-11-2005, 09:19 PM
BIOWARE!

No doubt about it.

stingerhs
08-11-2005, 10:30 PM
And in that same spirit, just many patches has it taken Obsidian in order to achieve the same effect?so far, just one. hate to break it to you, but Kotor I was hardly playable on my computer until the last patch because of a memory leak the game had on my system, which made me have to restart my entire machine every hour or so to keep playing. that doesn't exactly sound like polish IMO.

the point is that Bioware didn't release a polished game at first, and the same can be said about Obsidian. but an even larger point was that Bioware had plenty of time to get things done. Obsidian, on the other hand, did not have enough time to make things polished before the release. and given how much better the story could have been for TSL if Obsidian was given enough time, my vote definately lies with Obsidian.

Mira Dona
08-12-2005, 12:25 AM
so far, just one. hate to break it to you, but Kotor I was hardly playable on my computer until the last patch because of a memory leak the game had on my system, which made me have to restart my entire machine every hour or so to keep playing. that doesn't exactly sound like polish IMO.

Then perhaps you should have issue with your computer?

In either event, they made a patch that DID fix that as opposed to creating more problems, am I correct?



the point is that Bioware didn't release a polished game at first, and the same can be said about Obsidian. but an even larger point was that Bioware had plenty of time to get things done. Obsidian, on the other hand, did not have enough time to make things polished before the release. and given how much better the story could have been for TSL if Obsidian was given enough time

I've noticed that virtually every PC game ends up needing a patch at one point or another, but I see that as a benefit to PC and MAC games rather than an annoyance. Cause if the game had a few flaws, there is a still a chance to make the game better.

"If" and "could have" doesn't do much in the face of "what is". Had Obsidian more time, I have no doubt that their game would have surpassed the original, but the fact as I see it is that they didn't have enough time and the sequel didn't surpass the original.


my vote definately lies with Obsidian.

And you know what? All the power to you!

As I said before, I really don't care who makes it so long as its good :D

stingerhs
08-12-2005, 01:00 AM
Then perhaps you should have issue with your computer?

In either event, they made a patch that DID fix that as opposed to creating more problems, am I correct?hehe, sometimes i wonder given all the stuff that i do to it. at any rate, my machine is in top condition, and considering that i've never had a memory leak with any other game i highly doubt the problem was due to my hardware.

and although Bioware did address the problem it did take them three patches to do it. not to mention that i've never had a similar problem with TSL.

and so far i've noticed no new problems with the first patch released by Obsidian for TSL, so i'm not exactly understanding your implication. I've noticed that virtually every PC game ends up needing a patch at one point or another, but I see that as a benefit to PC and MAC games rather than an annoyance. Cause if the game had a few flaws, there is a still a chance to make the game better.i've also noticed the same, but that doesn't mean that a developer can't release a game with very few, if any, problems. just because they can doesn't neccessarily mean they should."If" and "could have" doesn't do much in the face of "what is". Had Obsidian more time, I have no doubt that their game would have surpassed the original, but the fact as I see it is that they didn't have enough time and the sequel didn't surpass the original.agreed.And you know what? All the power to you!

As I said before, I really don't care who makes it so long as its good :D*tips coffee mug*then i conceed. :D

SITHSLAYER133
08-12-2005, 01:18 AM
MY GOD WHO CARES WHO MAKES IT I JUST WANTS TO PLAY IT =)=)

lukeiamyourdad
08-12-2005, 03:52 AM
hehe, sometimes i wonder given all the stuff that i do to it. at any rate, my machine is in top condition, and considering that i've never had a memory leak with any other game i highly doubt the problem was due to my hardware.

and although Bioware did address the problem it did take them three patches to do it. not to mention that i've never had a similar problem with TSL.


I'm going to agree with stingerhs on this. I had the same problem and the third patch didn't even fix it.
Never had it with TSL. It was virtually bug free.
Thing is Bioware had about 5-6 months to complete the PC version and when it came out it was a real bugfest. But people forget about such things.

I like both developpers. I love Bioware's KotOR and Obsidian's KotOR II:TSL equally.
However, I'm going to have to go with OE, for practical reasons. OE already left TSL open-ended meaning that they wanted to do something else or had something in mind (or else, we wouldn't have missed all those cool "endings" that were cut).
That's why I vote for them.
It would be if George Lucas wrote The Empire Strikes Back but decided not to have anything to do with Return of the Jedi and leave the story to someone else with no implication from him.

pafan
08-12-2005, 04:13 AM
Hi to all, just thought of giving out my opinion on this and this is: BIOWARE!! Fair and square. It is one thing making a game and quite another to just enhance and polish it. Bioware did an extremely good job of it first time out and Obsidian just did not screw up (which is not an easy thing to do mind you and all credit to them for it, because I've seen sequels to screw up big time). But, my guess is Bioware should have been given the chance to improve on their creation by awarding to them the sequel, too. I would love to find out what could they have come up with...., the only way of finding that out is ... give them the third sequel!!!!

Achilles
08-12-2005, 04:46 AM
Pafan, BW turned down TSL because they were focusing on Jade Empire. They recommended Obsidian because many of their employees came from BW (originally).

LIAYD, careful there. You know how the naysayers hate that whole "voice of reason" thing :rolleyes:

kata_mad
08-12-2005, 08:44 AM
Bioware definatly had the beter rounded storyline, thought the game play from Obsidian was beter (though I agree that Bioware would have come up with something similar).

Obsidian have only releases oe patch to my knowledge, thought I never got or heard as many weird glitches in KOTOR I as TSL, If you read the obsidian forums there was a thread on these glithes including someone who had a whole army of Bao-Dors and they just kept multiplying.

So Bioware would get my vote mainly on beter storyline.

The Grey Ranger
08-12-2005, 10:06 AM
As I recall out of the box my KOTOR 1 (PC version) failed to get past the fighter game at the end of Taris until I managed to get the 1.03 patch. KOTOR II worked out of the box clear to the end. If Bioware was willing, they could do a very solid release for Kotor 3, but they have been saying on their boards that they are currently very committed to their own Intellectual properties, such as Jade Empire and Dragon Age. They have basicly said they have no interst in doing another Starwars game for the forseeable future.

I liked several of the new features added to Kotor 2 such as the weapon switching and the new jedi robes. I also enjoyed the story, though I did believe the last 1/3 could have used 2 or 3 months more developement. I suspect it would have been a better game if the February release date had been kept rather than rushing it to get a Christmas release. So realisticly Obisidian is the only real option of the two.

starmark2k
08-12-2005, 10:23 AM
I'd like to see OE do it as they need the chance to finish what they started in K2. If they were given a more realistic timetable they could do the better job.

Prime
08-12-2005, 10:24 AM
I'd probably prefer Bioware, but I wouldn't have a problem if Obsidian got the contract...

Magus Kyros
08-13-2005, 03:30 PM
why not both developers create the game in a joint effort :p

XMan3223
08-13-2005, 03:48 PM
I like Bioware just because I feel that the side stories and quests were not nearly as good in Kotor 2 as in Kotor 1.

DarthMuffin
08-13-2005, 06:46 PM
BioWare all the way. But I don't think they would do it; too busy with Dragon Age.

BioWare is without any doubt one of the best RPG-making company out there. Bringing DnD to the PC the way they did is no small feat. While NeverWinter was slightly inferior to Baldur's Gate I and II, I still think they're on the right track. Dragon Age looks especially great.

Obsidian/Black Isle's games were never as good as BioWare's, in my opinion. And I was quite disappointed with TSL myself.

Jeff
08-13-2005, 06:52 PM
Obsidian/Black Isle's games were never as good as BioWare's, in my opinion. And I was quite disappointed with TSL myself.
You just said BG was better than NWN. :rolleyes:

BTW, I agree with that statement (that BG is better). But in the long run Bioware is a better developer.

DarthMuffin
08-13-2005, 07:08 PM
You just said BG was better than NWN. :rolleyes:

BTW, I agree with that statement (that BG is better). But in the long run Bioware is a better developer.

Baldur's Gate was developed by BioWare, but published by Black Isle.

Jeff
08-13-2005, 07:15 PM
Baldur's Gate was developed by BioWare, but published by Black Isle.
Oops. It seems you are right. I guess I shouldn't have always skipped the company logos scenes when you start the game...

Lettuce
08-13-2005, 07:41 PM
I would like to see Bioware make the game but that doesnt seem likely. Bioware would have given us a finished game they would have never tried to do more than they could handle in the time given to them. But that doesnt really matter because it seems Bioware is going to be focused on its own IPs for the next few years.

DarthMuffin
08-13-2005, 08:50 PM
I would like to see Bioware make the game but that doesnt seem likely. Bioware would have given us a finished game they would have never tried to do more than they could handle in the time given to them. But that doesnt really matter because it seems Bioware is going to be focused on its own IPs for the next few years.

Well, KotOR I was a bit rushed in the later parts (starforge).

But it's nothing like TSL, where they even "forgot" to remove the map pings of the cut areas, and the lack of any kind of ending.

Anyway, it's more LA's fault. They might have decided at the last minute that they wanted the game out sooner, and Obsidian didn't have time to finish things up. However, I do remember reading an interview last summer with an Obsidian employee saying that the game was basically finished, and that they were testing stuff. We will probably never know what truly happened.

Of course they had absolutely no excuse for not fixing the map pings and bugs such as with force speed and force aura for the PC version which came about a month later.

JoshVoidstalker
08-13-2005, 09:06 PM
Neither: Bioware has said it will concentrate on their own IP for now, and Obsidian proved unable to stand up to LA pressure on the release date. How about a Dev with a proven track record of: "When its finished"

Bethesda

Troika would be good as well, but didn't they go under?

lukeiamyourdad
08-13-2005, 09:22 PM
Well, KotOR I was a bit rushed in the later parts (starforge).

Quite arguable. The StarForge was at least very stressing due to the number of enemies thrown at you.
Trayus was...well...a walk in the park.

zippydsm
08-13-2005, 09:32 PM
BIOWARE dosent make great RPGs good but not great now all Obsidian did was add to biowares stuff,so bioware could make a desent 3rd game thier frist string games soemtimes leave out alot of things and thier updates leave alot to be diserd.

Jeff
08-13-2005, 09:36 PM
BIOWARE dosent make great RPGs good but not great now all Obsidian did was add to biowares stuff,so bioware could make a desent 3rd game thier frist string games soemtimes leave out alot of things and thier updates leave alot to be diserd.
Hmm... Let's see, Bioware has made Jade Empire, NeverWinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and KotOR... Wouldn't you consider any of these great RPGs? Because I consider all of them great.

IndianaSolo
08-13-2005, 10:34 PM
Hmm... Let's see, Bioware has made Jade Empire, NeverWinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and KotOR... Wouldn't you consider any of these great RPGs? Because I consider all of them great.

Jade Empire (good), Neverwinter Nights (good), Baldur's Gate (great), and KoTOR (great).

I'd say they're 50/50 on great games. Jade Empire was much too short, too little party interaction, and much too linear after you reach the Lotus Assassin stronghold. Neverwinter Nights had the same plot as KOTOR, but KOTOR did it much better. It was much too linear, and there was zero party interaction.

ChAiNz.2da
08-14-2005, 10:43 AM
Neverwinter Nights had the same plot as KOTOR, but KOTOR did it much better. It was much too linear, and there was zero party interaction.
actually, KotOR had the same plot as NWN as it was the first out ;) and you thought NWN was linear??? :eyeraise: There's not a single main quest in the game that has to be done before another one is required..

and though there wasn't much, there was Party interaction, along with sidequests for each NPC depending on which one you chose as your "hired hand"... they were able to make bigger better weapons when you found certain items.. plus each had their own backstory you could unlock with enough conversation...and it even included the romance element (ahh.. my lovely Aribeth, or Linu, or both :naughty: hehehe)...

though granted, KotOR did a much better job upon improving those elements since Bioware pretty much proved it could be done with NWN...

I must respectly give NWN a "great" score along with a "great" for KotOR and an "absolutely stunningly fantastic" score for Baldur's Gate I/II :D

IndianaSolo
08-14-2005, 02:40 PM
actually, KotOR had the same plot as NWN as it was the first out ;) and you thought NWN was linear??? :eyeraise: There's not a single main quest in the game that has to be done before another one is required..


My mistake. I didn't really make my post clear enough. About my two points:

1-I didn't mean to imply NWN copied KOTOR's story, because I know it was out first. I simply meant that NWN's version didn't seem very well fleshed out, whereas KOTOR took the story and fleshed it out deeply, thus I thought NWN's version of the story (althought it was out first) was "good" and KOTOR's version of the story was "great".

2-It's been a while, so I probably got it confused. But for some reason NWN's quests and open endedness didn't seem on par with true open ended stories like BG, FO or the like. And since it's story wasn't as deep as KOTOR's, IMO it was a "tweener". It wasn't completely open ended ala FO or BG, but it wasn't a cinematic masterpiece like KOTOR, thus my "good" rating for it.

Lettuce
08-14-2005, 03:31 PM
Jade Empire (good), Neverwinter Nights (good), Baldur's Gate (great), and KoTOR (great).

I'd say they're 50/50 on great games. Jade Empire was much too short, too little party interaction, and much too linear after you reach the Lotus Assassin stronghold.

Jade Empire was a great game I'm sure we all would agree that make it a bit longer would have been nicer but it was still great. The reason why the game was much more linear than any of their previous titles is because they wanted the story to be the main focus of the game. They allowed some deviation(i'm almost 100% sure I spelled that wrong) from the story at certain parts because the characters are still searching for leads anywhere they can find them. After that however it takes a more commonsense approach. You wouldnt run back to town to find some old ladies lost dog when you are 3 steps away from killing the main bad guy.

Also Jade empire had one of the best stories I've ever seen in a game and a much better plot twist than KOTOR1(the plot twist in KOTOR was extremly obvious, the one in JE made my head explode out of suprise).

ChAiNz.2da
08-14-2005, 04:37 PM
My mistake. I didn't really make my post clear enough. About my two points:
That's kewl, I can live with that.. hehehe

Hey, at least we both agree that KotOR was great ;) :D

IndianaSolo
08-14-2005, 04:39 PM
I judge great games on how appealing they were a)on my first play through and b)how many times they compel me to play them again.

Jade Empire was great on the first play through, but the linearity of it made it (IMO of course) not so great to play through again.

If it was strictly an action game, I'd probably consider it great. But since it was a RPG with action components, I compare it on the same level I do all RPGs (which is criterias a and b above) and JE falls short.

DarthMuffin
08-15-2005, 03:02 PM
Quite arguable. The StarForge was at least very stressing due to the number of enemies thrown at you.
Trayus was...well...a walk in the park.

Quite true. And it does make sense, after all, for your character to rush through the starforge...

About Bethesda : I've always liked Elder Scrolls game myself since you can just do whatever you want, anytime you want. I can see a SW game using a similar system as in Morrowind (would be like a cross between RPG and shooter), though the open-class system wouldn't work (IMO, anyway).

Problem is, Bethesda is hard at work with Oblivion, and I suppose they'll want to release an expantion or two before doing anything else.

Qball21213
08-25-2005, 06:31 AM
I think maybe both, because Bioware rocks but obsidian did improve alot, but Kotor 2 seemed like a mod to me like an amature tried to improve on biowares work a collaboration of the 2 would make an awesome game i believe

Darth333
08-25-2005, 02:53 PM
If I had the choice between the two, I'd vote for Bioware (but that's just wishful thinking...)

I just played K1 again recently and I was amazed at the sense of detail in the textures, the dialogues, the storyline, etc in comparison to K2. Sure TSL has more items, a better upgrade and feedback system but almost everything is re-used from Kotor, even the armors which are for the vast majority, just reskins from K1. Sometimes the placeables have been reused in some weird ways too: why would the mandalorians plant Rakatan flags all around their camp??? :p

I was just thinking about the city areas: Taris/Manaan vs and Nar Shadaa and Onderon. Well there is no comparison: Taris and Manaan are much bigger, the artwork much more detailed and there is a lot more to do in quantity and variety. In K1, there was also all that people walking in the streets, while in Kotor 2, Nar Shadaa was almost completely empty and the npcs didn't even walk but just stand in place.

You also had much more freedom in your movements in K1. In K2, you are constantly put in control pf party members you don't chose, which limits the possible interaction with your party members and increases the feeling of linearity.

The writing was also much better in K1 IMHO.

Don't get me wrong: I still think K2 was good and I had fun playing it. Obsidian had good ideas and the story began pretty well but there were too many loose ends in various aspects.

I hope that for K3, things are going to change.

Smilodon
08-25-2005, 03:42 PM
You also had much more freedom in your movements in K1. In K2, you are constantly put in control pf party members you don't chose, which limits the possible interaction with your party members and increases the feeling of linearity.

I also got that feeling when I replayed KOTOR II, but I think that was partly because of the influence system, I didn't want to screw off all my party members completely, so I had to choose the same dialog options very often in my unchanging need to max influence on them 8[

The extent of party interaction is quite interesting in KOTOR II, since most of them are triggered on the Ebon Hawk and not at some random point in the game compared to KOTOR I (imo). But still it's kinda sad that most party interactions are limited either on the Ebon Hawk or when you enter a new planet.

ForceFightWMe12
08-25-2005, 04:31 PM
In my opinion, Bioware should do it. I don't know what it was about it, but I liked KOTOR much more than KOTOR II.

fresnosmokey02
08-25-2005, 06:03 PM
It doesn't matter who makes this game (provided it DOES get made, of course). Both developers would be just fine if given the right amount of time and a good budget. Bioware would have put out a very comparable product given the same constraints as Obsidian (different story, maybe, but same glitches and problems). Of course K1 is more primitive than K2 considering it was the first one and K2 built off of K1. I guess you could consider K1 the starting point or "beta" for K2 and perhaps (I hope anyway) K2 could be the "beta" for K3.

lukeiamyourdad
08-25-2005, 06:04 PM
I also got that feeling when I replayed KOTOR II, but I think that was partly because of the influence system, I didn't want to screw off all my party members completely, so I had to choose the same dialog options very often in my unchanging need to max influence on them 8[

She's talking about the time on NarShaddaa where you were forced to play as Atton and on the Ravager when Mandalore and Visas were forced upon you. Not to mention the few times you had to play as T3.


The extent of party interaction is quite interesting in KOTOR II, since most of them are triggered on the Ebon Hawk and not at some random point in the game compared to KOTOR I (imo). But still it's kinda sad that most party interactions are limited either on the Ebon Hawk or when you enter a new planet.

Actually, you could talk and interact with your party members every time you leveled up. It's not totally random.

Anon21
08-25-2005, 06:42 PM
BioWare and Obsidian both did great jobs with their games, but Obsidian just left so much more open. It would be smart to let Obsidian do the job, but I'm sure BioWare could continue the story of KotOR II almost as good as Obsidian could. Considering they both made amazing games, it does not matter who makes it, as long as its enjoyable.

Blaze629
08-25-2005, 08:46 PM
Can I have both of them make this one? I want the best of both worlds!!!!! :D

Aurora Merlow
08-26-2005, 11:06 AM
Bioware all the way. They made a story that rivalled the original. Yes obsidium brought in heaps of new features (that were awsome) but thats to be expected from a sequal. There was too many holes in kotor 2 storyline and Biowares was sound and flowed a lot better. Characters in kotor were so much better as well Bindoo, Carth, even Mission and Big Z. Plus Reven was heaps cooler than the exile. I only hope that Bioware do kotor 3, thats if LA even do it.

Desolation
08-27-2005, 06:58 AM
I would rather BioWare make it. KotOR is their creation. Sure, Obsidian added many things, but BioWare would have done the same if they made the sequel. Personally I like KotOR I's story better, just because the second's had many questions unanswered. It seems that, because Obsidian made the sequel, they didn't really know where BioWare wanted to go with it, so they made something new, that had a small amount of things from the first (story wise). Having said that, I think it's fitting that Obsidian be the ones to make KotOR III, only so that they can finish the story of the second game the right way. Although, Obsidian needs to do a much better job with this one, and polish it much, much more.


My vote goes to Obsidian, but with worries.

ForceFightWMe12
08-27-2005, 12:20 PM
Bioware all the way. They made a story that rivalled the original. Yes obsidium brought in heaps of new features (that were awsome) but thats to be expected from a sequal. There was too many holes in kotor 2 storyline and Biowares was sound and flowed a lot better. Characters in kotor were so much better as well Bindoo, Carth, even Mission and Big Z. Plus Reven was heaps cooler than the exile. I only hope that Bioware do kotor 3, thats if LA even do it.


My thoughts exactly. While it was...interesting, KOTOR II's story simply failed to match the original's. KOTOR II was just...well...empty, if that makes any sense. The surprises and plot twists had little to no quality. I mean, I don't know about any of you, but I could tell Kreia was a Dark Jedi or something along those lines because of the way she acted. Sorry, but that's no Jedi. However, in the original, how many people expected your player to be Revan? And that Bastila would be captured and fall to the Dark Side? I wouldn't have suspected any of that. So, for me, its handsdown. Bioware all the way baby.

DarthMuffin
08-27-2005, 06:57 PM
I was just thinking about the city areas: Taris/Manaan vs and Nar Shadaa and Onderon. Well there is no comparison: Taris and Manaan are much bigger, the artwork much more detailed and there is a lot more to do in quantity and variety. In K1, there was also all that people walking in the streets, while in Kotor 2, Nar Shadaa was almost completely empty and the npcs didn't even walk but just stand in place.

Cities were a huge disappointment for me in TSL. I was just expecting more. I'm sure that quite a lot of us were expecting a complex "space station" type of areas for Telos (especially after seeing the arrival cinematic); it turned out to be ~4 areas of complete boredom.

Dantooine? Ripped from KotOR I, turned around a little. Korriban? They took the one from KotOR I, deleted the initial areas and changed the landing zone (Korriban was my last planet during my first time through, and I just felt robbed when I saw what it was).

Iziz (Onderon) was just too small to give any kind of "I'm in a capital city" feeling to the player; and that's what modern RPGs are really missing. I know I'm biased on this, but just look at Baldur's Gate and Athkatla : they're huge! Many quests, different merchants and shops everywhere, NPCs with things to say... And that was not at the expanse of dungeon and wilderness areas; BG1 had it's share of forest exploring and complex dungeons like Durlag's Tower. BG2 didn't have that many wilderness areas, but the dungeons were really special (Spellhold was great) and it was rather nice to explore the perfectly skinned and modelled Suldanesselar at the end. [/rant]

My biggest disappointment was by far Nar Shaddaa though. Perhaps I was expecting too much (I confess I was hoping it would look a little like Coruscant, or at least similar to the way it is shown in the Jedi Knight games). In the end, I think it's the best city in the game, but it could have been so much more.

On a side note, anyone else would like to see Coruscant in the possible KotOR III? It could have higher levels (with areas such as the Senate building and the Jedi Temple, like we see in RotS) and lower, slumish, areas (Cantina in AotC).

Not to mention the few times you had to play as T3.

Of all the times you are forced to be someone else, I actually found those to be the most interesting. Gotta like T3 :)

DarkMe
08-28-2005, 05:43 AM
Can I have both of them make this one? I want the best of both worlds!!!!! :D

Lol...Why not Bioware could help Obsidian a lot with the depth of the game just like in K1 better back story's and much more. If the work together you get te best result!

SaeseeJim
08-28-2005, 09:27 PM
When I play KOTOR 2 on my X-Box I complete the mission of finding a new fuel source but when I go to Telos to talk to the head security guy I never get to tell him that I have a new fuel source but it says in my journal that I've completed it. I know it doesn't really matter but it just annoys me.

Aurora Merlow
08-31-2005, 09:14 AM
Yeh T3's a pretty cool little droid. very true about the cities and planets being a let down. in k1 all the planets were pretty lively and full of people. In TSL they were so desolate and boring, should take a leaf out of BG1 and BG2 like you say.

BRING BACK REVEN COOLEST CAHRACTER (and twist) ever

MasterWakt
09-06-2005, 09:48 PM
Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.

*agrees*

The only thing I'd like to add is that BioWare hasn't had a chance to update to it's original. All in all, although Obsidian did a brilliant job of recapping all of the nifty features and unique setup of the first, it felt to me that they just patched KotOR up with a new storyline and a bit more character customization.

I believe BioWare, if given a chance, could work along with Avellone to create an excellent storyline; but at the same time, give the whole game a fresh new look with better, optimized gameplay improvements instead of the same old stuff being re-used.