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Emperor Devon
08-21-2005, 09:03 PM
I've noticed how a morality system is a large subject of discussion here, but everyone seems to be forgetting something.

Assuming there will not be a new playable character (and that you have Revan and the Exile), there really shouldn't be much of a morality system.

I think it would be best if you selected Revan and the Exile's starting alignment from the main menu, and rather than having the choice of the Dark or Light Side in the game, instead you'd go ever further into the depths of evil (or good). Revan and the Exile's alignments have been pretty much determined in the previous two games. It wouldn't make that much sense if the player had the option for the Exile to go Light Side after she had exterminated the Jedi Order.

If you had the option to choose what happened in the previous games at the main menu and got set with an alignment, it probably wouldn't be that restrictive. Say that you selected Revan to be on the Dark Side. Rather than staying the same throughout the whole game, Revan could start to learn far more refined ways of evil, and steadily fall even further into the depths of the Dark Side than he had before.

What are your thoughts?

Lightsider
08-21-2005, 09:49 PM
either way, you know Revan is going to come back and be in charge of a new Mandalorian army. But like in the Movies and the games, there has always been a chance for redemption so this one is going to be a stumper!

Emperor Devon
08-21-2005, 10:03 PM
A Mandalorian army? Revan will be in charge of the Sith if he's evil, or the Republic if he's good. The Mandalorians will his commandos no matter what side he's on.

And there won't be chance to be redeemed or to fall, Revan and the Exile made their choices... They'd be flip-floppers if they changed their minds.

stingerhs
08-21-2005, 11:01 PM
heck no. i'd be completely disappointed if a system like this was implemented in Kotor III. one of the coolest ideas that had me sold on the Kotor was the ability to start out as a seemingly random person and move them along either dark or light paths, or switch their alignments half-way through. the method you're proposing leaves almost nothing open to the player as to how the character is aligned with the exception of one point at the create-a-character portion. i'd go as far to say that i wouldn't even bother playing Kotor III if this idea was implemented.

oh yeah, and for the last time: I DO NOT WANT EITHER REVAN OR THE EXILE TO BE MY PC OR EVEN A SELECTABLE PARTY NPC.

and don't take this as a flame, Devon. i'm just really opposed to a system like this. ;)

Jeff
08-21-2005, 11:28 PM
Assuming there will not be a new playable character (and that you have Revan and the Exile), there really shouldn't be much of a morality system.I think there will be a new PC. It would be hard for them to make Revan or the Exile the PC, since you would have to decide a ton of things about what happened in the previous game.
What are your thoughts?
I don't really like the idea. Like stinger said, I love how you can choose your alignment, and change your path whenever. It adds a lot to the kotor games, and I definately hope they keep that system.

IndianaSolo
08-21-2005, 11:46 PM
I really hope they don't have Revan or the Exile as the returning PC, so I've gotta completely disagree with this thread about not being able to choose LS or DS.

Prince
08-22-2005, 12:15 AM
^^^^

I agree.

There should definitely be a new PC. It would save time instead of having to decide a million things about Revan and Exile's past.

Mira Dona
08-22-2005, 12:55 AM
But choosing between light or dark during your journey is part of the reason why these games are so good. . .

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2005, 12:57 AM
heck no. i'd be completely disappointed if a system like this was implemented in Kotor III. one of the coolest ideas that had me sold on the Kotor was the ability to start out as a seemingly random person and move them along either dark or light paths, or switch their alignments half-way through. the method you're proposing leaves almost nothing open to the player as to how the character is aligned with the exception of one point at the create-a-character portion. i'd go as far to say that i wouldn't even bother playing Kotor III if this idea was implemented.

oh yeah, and for the last time: I DO NOT WANT EITHER REVAN OR THE EXILE TO BE MY PC OR EVEN A SELECTABLE PARTY NPC.



Quoted for enphasis ;)

Seriously, no offence to Devon, but this is the worst idea we've had yet. It turns it into JA where you "could choose the lightside or the darkside".

The entire fun of KotOR was turning from light to dark or dark to light because of your actions. This would only be:"Darkside press here. Lightside press here."
It would remove one of the core elements of KotOR.
Heck, I could deal with a combat system change but not this.

Emperor Devon
08-22-2005, 01:07 AM
Quoted for enphasis ;)
Seriously, no offence to Devon, but this is the worst idea we've had yet. It turns it into JA where you "could choose the lightside or the darkside".

No offense taken, but what do you call the encounter with Bastila on the temple summit?

The entire fun of KotOR was turning from light to dark or dark to light because of your actions. This would only be:"Darkside press here. Lightside press here."
It would remove one of the core elements of KotOR.
Heck, I could deal with a combat system change but not this.

It's not like you'd be pressing buttons all the time, just at the main menu. Revan and the Exile would steadily get eviler and eviler. To be able to change your mind after killing off all the Jedi would be - well, stupid.

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2005, 01:20 AM
No offense taken, but what do you call the encounter with Bastila on the temple summit?

Hmm...You are quite right about this though. TSL had no such thing.



It's not like you'd be pressing buttons all the time, just at the main menu. Revan and the Exile would steadily get eviler and eviler.
That would be pointless. Why would they get eviler? Assuming they get to Dark Side mastery, what's left? KotOR left the door open for your redemption. Like I said, your actions should make you evil, not a lightside or darkside button.


To be able to change your mind after killing off all the Jedi would be - well, stupid.

I suppose that it was also stupid when Darth Vader decide to go back to the light to save his son.

Lightsider
08-22-2005, 12:59 PM
Vader was never trully dark side, he made the choice to go down that path to save lives, this is not what a true sith lord would do.

Jeff
08-22-2005, 01:10 PM
Vader was never trully dark side, he made the choice to go down that path to save lives, this is not what a true sith lord would do.But he killed a ton of people along the way. Can anyone say force choke?

It's rediculous to say that Vader was never truly dark side.

Emperor Devon
08-22-2005, 01:47 PM
That would be pointless. Why would they get eviler? Assuming they get to Dark Side mastery, what's left? KotOR left the door open for your redemption. Like I said, your actions should make you evil, not a lightside or darkside button .

Why would they get eviler? They're fighting the True Sith, who are far more cruel and vicious than the fake ones. Revan and the Exile would probably learn from their actions before killing them.
Anyways, it would seem rather odd to have exterminated the Jedi Order in TSL and start out neutral. Whether a person can redeemed or not, you probably would be on the Dark Side if you've wiped out the guardians of peace and justice.

The ideal a Sith should strive for is to fall so far no chance of redemption is possible.


I suppose that it was also stupid when Darth Vader decide to go back to the light to save his son.

Yeah, it was. He was a great Sith Lord. Not as great as Sidious, but it was a pity that all his potential was wasted. Given a few more decades on the Dark Side, who knows what he would have been like.

IndianaSolo
08-22-2005, 02:03 PM
The main reason I don't think this is a good idea at all is because the LS/DS options are one of the most interesting parts of this series. Removing them would make your choices pretty obsolete. If you had to pick to play as a certain alignment from the very beginning, then already 50% of your choices are decided before you even begin the game. No thank you.

Commas
08-22-2005, 03:45 PM
(in response to K1's blantent light/dark temple summit choice) Hmm...You are quite right about this though. TSL had no such thing.

Well, it sort of did with the Jedi Masters and whether you decided to kill them or let them live, although it was much more subtle than K1's temple summit. I've never tried only killing one and letting the other two live, but i've heard that even if you don't kill them all, the game assumes you have gone darkside and they will attack you anyway, even if you just kill one. But, like i said, its much more subtle.

however, i have to say that i agree with everyone else here that the light/dark system is an integral part of the kotor experience. personally, i'd like this system to be more in depth with less thugish darkside choices, but being able to pick an alignment at the beginning takes away like, half the game. i really enjoy trying to make the same decisions i would make, instead of hunting out the most obvious dark or light choices, and seeing how my characters end up at the end, it makes for a much more organic and indepth and making me choose an alignment at the beggining means i'm not really playing as myself as much as i am playing a premade character.

Mono_Giganto
08-22-2005, 03:59 PM
The Darth Vader example was exactly what I was thinking of LIAYD. :D

Vader was never trully dark side, he made the choice to go down that path to save lives, this is not what a true sith lord would do.

Correction, he made that choice to save a life, killing hundreds of others in the process. Extremely selfish. In the end, he even attacked the person he was trying to save, because he had gained power, and was afraid to lose it.


As for Vader's potential in a few decades... Well, he's human. He's in his mid forties by RotJ time. Safe to say old age takes over what little is left of his body.

As for the LS/DS thing, it takes away a big aspect of TSL's gameplay. Besides, if you go DS in TSL, Kreia gives you a big speech about why what you did was stupid. It may not have meant much for you, but my DS Mastery Sith Assassin went LS as best as he could after that. :) She had several good points. As for Light corrupting to Dark, uh, that can happen at any time frmo what I've seen in the movies. Even the greatest Jedi has the opporunity to fall.

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2005, 06:57 PM
Why would they get eviler? They're fighting the True Sith, who are far more cruel and vicious than the fake ones. Revan and the Exile would probably learn from their actions before killing them.

So because you see someone killing puppies, you start killing puppies too? I thought Sith Lords were more capable to think for themselves other then following what others do. What you could learn from them is not attitude itself, but knowledge (ie how to have a better control of the Force or better saber styles).

Anyways, it would seem rather odd to have exterminated the Jedi Order in TSL and start out neutral. Whether a person can redeemed or not, you probably would be on the Dark Side if you've wiped out the guardians of peace and justice.

You simply assume that you're going to play as either the Exile or Revan. Yet, by your sayings, you've just added another reason why it's a bad idea to bring those characters back as the PC.

The ideal a Sith should strive for is to fall so far no chance of redemption is possible.

Redemption is always possible. Ideal or not, no one can totally erase one-self.
The question really, is how far can you fall. This is not the object of the debate at all.


Yeah, it was. He was a great Sith Lord. Not as great as Sidious, but it was a pity that all his potential was wasted. Given a few more decades on the Dark Side, who knows what he would have been like.

Your personnal opinion does not stand in the way of facts. Vader was redeemed, so can be a Darkside Revan or Exile. Even so, Revan, if you've played KotOR on the Lightside, was redeemed.

IndianaSolo
08-22-2005, 07:17 PM
Which also goes back to choice. That was one of the biggest selling points of KOTOR, and of cRPGs in general: having the choice to do with your character what you want.

If you remove the LS/DS options and instead select from the very beginning which alignment you are, then you no longer have a choice about how to approach situations.

MonCalamaerosta
08-23-2005, 03:24 AM
No offense taken, but what do you call the encounter with Bastila on the temple summit?



It's not like you'd be pressing buttons all the time, just at the main menu. Revan and the Exile would steadily get eviler and eviler. To be able to change your mind after killing off all the Jedi would be - well, stupid.
Perhaps, but part of what made KOTOR II so cool was that it wasn't as much a decision of morality as much as it was one of strength, one of right, not necessarily good or evil. If that were the case, the exile might have destroyed the Jedi for being weak and flawed in their teachings, and promptly afterwards restructured the order to emphasize the lessons he/she had learned. I think the second game opened up a new side that didn't necessarily stratify the entire experience into good or evil, and made it more open for interpretation. That being so, it seems that the lightside and darkside shifts would have to continue in order to keep the spirit of the game alive. I have a feeling that the system will stay but that the plot will develop even more the ideas behind light and dark so that it won't be tiring to have to be nice or really mean all the time to fuel your powers.

Emperor Devon
08-23-2005, 07:28 PM
So because you see someone killing puppies, you start killing puppies too? I thought Sith Lords were more capable to think for themselves other then following what others do. What you could learn from them is not attitude itself, but knowledge (ie how to have a better control of the Force or better saber styles.

You just provided the answer to your own question. Learning combat or control of the Force from the True Sith would cause most people to fall to the Dark Side. Look at Atris - she was a member of the council, tried to learn of the Sith by delving into their holocrons, and she fell to the Dark Side. It's actually rather repetitive.
As for what's so evil about their combat, almost all Sith, (and probably moreso the True Sith) use the Dark Side of the Force to fuel their attacks and channel their rage.

You simply assume that you're going to play as either the Exile or Revan. Yet, by your sayings, you've just added another reason why it's a bad idea to bring those characters back as the PC.

A bad idea? Most certainly not. Revan the Exile's stories have to be resolved - and it is usually best to play the character who's story will be resolved. What would it be like to be HK-47 for all of KOTOR I, and simply hearing about how Revan killed Malak?
Besides, what new character can their be? Even if you're on the Light Side, nearly all the Jedi are wiped out, and if you're on the Dark Side, they're gone for good. There's no one to train the new character, and I doubt LA would have your character be trained by the Sith and them redeem him/herself. Usually it's the other way around.
Besides, why would the new character have conviently stayed away from the events of KOTOR I and II?

lukeiamyourdad
08-23-2005, 07:47 PM
You just provided the answer to your own question. Learning combat or control of the Force from the True Sith would cause most people to fall to the Dark Side. Look at Atris - she was a member of the council, tried to learn of the Sith by delving into their holocrons, and she fell to the Dark Side. It's actually rather repetitive.

Actually no. You're talking about falling to the Dark Side. I'm talking about someone who's already a Darksider. If a Sith doesn't like to kill puppies but sees another doing so, will he simply imitate the action? Quite unlikely. It wouldn't be in the Sith's caracteristics to just do random killing. Have you seen Uthar do some random killing? Yet his students were little thugs.


As for what's so evil about their combat, almost all Sith, (and probably moreso the True Sith) use the Dark Side of the Force to fuel their attacks and channel their rage.

Of course. But how could it be more evil? It stops at a certain point.

A bad idea? Most certainly not. Revan the Exile's stories have to be resolved - and it is usually best to play the character who's story will be resolved.

You're right. TSL turned out pretty bad with Revan's story unresolved. Hey, both of their stories (Revan and the Exile) are unresolved. Besides, there is a thread for this.


What would it be like to be HK-47 for all of KOTOR I, and simply hearing about how Revan killed Malak?

I have no idea what this is about.

Besides, what new character can their be? Even if you're on the Light Side, nearly all the Jedi are wiped out, and if you're on the Dark Side, they're gone for good.

Yoda and Obi-Wan survived the Jedi purge.


There's no one to train the new character, and I doubt LA would have your character be trained by the Sith and them redeem him/herself. Usually it's the other way around.

*points upwards*

Besides, why would the new character have conviently stayed away from the events of KOTOR I and II?

Disciple, Handmaiden, Atton, Mira and Bao-Dur stayed away from the events of KotOR I and became Jedi or Sith during TSL.
Something similar could be done with a new PC.
I'm just stating a possibility.

Ultima Weapon 5
08-23-2005, 10:02 PM
I want kotor 3 to have the choice. That's what makes Kotor such a good game.

Emperor Devon
08-23-2005, 11:54 PM
Actually no. You're talking about falling to the Dark Side. I'm talking about someone who's already a Darksider. If a Sith doesn't like to kill puppies but sees another doing so, will he simply imitate the action? Quite unlikely .

Maybe I will have to explain this in greater detail. The Sith draw upon the power of the Dark Side to fuel their power. Anyone who draws upon the Dark Side - even if they are a Jedi - will become corrupted by it. The more powerful the Sith is, the stronger their connection to the Force - and the Dark Side - is. The True Sith are far more powerful than the fake ones, and no doubt have a much greater command of the Dark Side.
Very skilled Jedi and Sith can learn from their opponents just by watching them. Look at what the Exile did to the Jedi Masters.
Now, for how all that is relevent.... Revan and the Exile will no doubt learn from the True Sith while fighting them, and either learn their techniques, and thus, drawing more heavily upon the Dark Side, or, faced with more powerful adversaries, they will draw upon the Dark Side's power even more, and thus corrupting them even further.

They most certainly won't watch the True Sith kill puppies and do the same...

Of course. But how could it be more evil? It stops at a certain point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying there's a limit to how evil someone can become?

You're right. TSL turned out pretty bad with Revan's story unresolved. Hey, both of their stories (Revan and the Exile) are unresolved. Besides, there is a thread for this.

Not really. TSL was not about Revan, and since there will (hopefully) be a sequel, there was no need to completely resolve his story. It's like ESB - Vader was still alive and the Empire was still going strong when the film ended.

I have no idea what this is about.

:rolleyes: You had been saying there should be a new character to play in KOTOR III, even though Revan and the Exile's stories will be resolved in that game. It would be like playing as HK for all of KOTOR I.

Yoda and Obi-Wan survived the Jedi purge.

That is not relevent to this discussion. Those were different circumstances, and they were facing weaker enemies.

The Jedi were wiped out in KOTOR II - how they started up again is beyond me. Maybe the Handmaiden and Mical used their sensitivity to the force and the knowledge on Telos to rebuild the Order.

Disciple, Handmaiden, Atton, Mira and Bao-Dur stayed away from the events of KotOR I and became Jedi or Sith during TSL.
Something similar could be done with a new PC.
I'm just stating a possibility.

True, but those party members are not individuals capable of changing the galaxy - a person like that can't really stay in the background for several wars, and if there is a new PC in KOTOR II, you would no doubt be playing as person who is capable of deciding the fate of the galaxy.

lukeiamyourdad
08-24-2005, 06:32 AM
Maybe I will have to explain this in greater detail. The Sith draw upon the power of the Dark Side to fuel their power. Anyone who draws upon the Dark Side - even if they are a Jedi - will become corrupted by it. The more powerful the Sith is, the stronger their connection to the Force - and the Dark Side - is. The True Sith are far more powerful than the fake ones, and no doubt have a much greater command of the Dark Side.
Very skilled Jedi and Sith can learn from their opponents just by watching them. Look at what the Exile did to the Jedi Masters.
Now, for how all that is relevent.... Revan and the Exile will no doubt learn from the True Sith while fighting them, and either learn their techniques, and thus, drawing more heavily upon the Dark Side, or, faced with more powerful adversaries, they will draw upon the Dark Side's power even more, and thus corrupting them even further.

They most certainly won't watch the True Sith kill puppies and do the same...

Hmm...That does make sense to an extent. The problem is that in KotOR, using the Darkside alone is not enough to change your alignment. Or else, there would be a lot of Jedi Masters corrupted because of the number of times they used Force Storm.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying there's a limit to how evil someone can become?

Once you've committed mass genocide, killed puppies, drank blood from a fountain and corrupted little children, you end up having done everything.


Not really. TSL was not about Revan, and since there will (hopefully) be a sequel, there was no need to completely resolve his story. It's like ESB - Vader was still alive and the Empire was still going strong when the film ended.

I don't see why not. TSL was not fully about Revan, but a good part of it involves him. Anyway, what I meant was that people wanted to play Revan in TSL and now they want to play the Exile and/or Revan again. For some reason...

:rolleyes: You had been saying there should be a new character to play in KOTOR III, even though Revan and the Exile's stories will be resolved in that game. It would be like playing as HK for all of KOTOR I.

You don't know how it would be resolved. There are ways to reselve their stories without having to play them. Obviously, TSL continued Revan's story without playing as Revan. We heard about him through dialogue only. I'm not saying it has to be done the same way with KotOR 3, I'm saying it's not impossible to bypass those "problems".

That is not relevent to this discussion. Those were different circumstances, and they were facing weaker enemies.

That is VERY relevent. The simple fact that two Jedi could escape a purge means that even back during the time of KotOR, one could've escaped.
Remember Jolee? He was lost on Kashyyyk until Revan found him.
It doesn't even have to be an important and very powerful Master, a Knight ca be enough to train you.


The Jedi were wiped out in KOTOR II - how they started up again is beyond me. Maybe the Handmaiden and Mical used their sensitivity to the force and the knowledge on Telos to rebuild the Order.

Scroll up.


True, but those party members are not individuals capable of changing the galaxy - a person like that can't really stay in the background for several wars, and if there is a new PC in KOTOR II, you would no doubt be playing as person who is capable of deciding the fate of the galaxy.

The Exile did stay in the dark for an entire conflict. I don't see how you cannot be on a very long exile or have somehow dissapeared for two wars. We don't know how long the events of KotOR3 are going to take place, but if we consider both the events of K1 and K2, it would be possible for you to just be a little kid when K1 started and the Jedi were busy and didn't notice you, a teenager during K2 which would mean that nobody could train you and finally an adult in K3, when you stumble upon and old hermit.
I'm just saying off the top of my head, but I have no problem if the story behind the PC's non-participation with galaxy events is credible.

You assume too much and are not using your imagination.

Emperor Devon
08-24-2005, 01:24 PM
Hmm...That does make sense to an extent. The problem is that in KotOR, using the Darkside alone is not enough to change your alignment. Or else, there would be a lot of Jedi Masters corrupted because of the number of times they used Force Storm.

Notice how you don't see any Jedi Masters use force storm. To use a power like that would go against several of the Jedi's major beliefs.

I imagine a Jedi Master could be corrupted by storm, but it would take a VERY long time.

Using the Dark Side of the force naturally corrupts people. Look at Exar Kun. He was a slightly more brutal (but not evil) Jedi. He goes to Korriban, gets trapped under a bunch of rocks, and under Freedon Nadd's influence, uses the Dark Side to force his way out and keep himself alive. Such a heavy usage of the Dark Side corrupted him.

Once you've committed mass genocide, killed puppies, drank blood from a fountain and corrupted little children, you end up having done everything.

There is a difference between the deeds you do and how you do them.

That is VERY relevent. The simple fact that two Jedi could escape a purge means that even back during the time of KotOR, one could've escaped.
Remember Jolee? He was lost on Kashyyyk until Revan found him.
It doesn't even have to be an important and very powerful Master, a Knight ca be enough to train you.

Those were VERY different circumstances. The Sith were much stronger in TSL than they were in RotS, and the ability to escape them was almost impossible. Not many Jedi would choose to go worlds dead to or completely alive with the force, and as such, the Sith were able to hunt them down with extreme ease.
It doesn't matter how remote Jolee was, he would have been found out eventually. The Sith were targeting their enemies through the Force.

it would be possible for you to just be a little kid when K1 started and the Jedi were busy and didn't notice you, a teenager during K2 which would mean that nobody could train you and finally an adult in K3, when you stumble upon and old hermit.

If the person was a little kid in KOTOR, he wouldn't be a teenager by the time of TSL.

Besides, wouldn't a few Sith Assassins have gone to take care of the kid?

stingerhs
08-24-2005, 05:16 PM
There is a difference between the deeds you do and how you do them.not really. if Taris was destroyed by a Death Star instead of a bunch of ships firing a barrage of blaster fire, would that make Malak eviler??Those were VERY different circumstances. The Sith were much stronger in TSL than they were in RotS, and the ability to escape them was almost impossible. Not many Jedi would choose to go worlds dead to or completely alive with the force, and as such, the Sith were able to hunt them down with extreme ease.
It doesn't matter how remote Jolee was, he would have been found out eventually. The Sith were targeting their enemies through the Force.okay, then you just completely ignored the fact that Darth Vader was the most powerful Dark Jedi in existance. also, just because the circumstances were different doesn't make it irrelevant. the Sith were hunting down the Jedi in both instances. and it is quite logical that there are survivors to any catastrophe.

did the Jews escape the Holocaust while living in Germany?? obviously not all of them, but that didn't mean that a number of them didn't escape.
If the person was a little kid in KOTOR, he wouldn't be a teenager by the time of TSL.

Besides, wouldn't a few Sith Assassins have gone to take care of the kid?well, not everyone can detect a child. although Vader was the most powerful Sith of all time, not even he could detect that Luke or Leia was his own children until they had gained power.

and yes, a 10 year old kid could be a 15 year old teenager during the timespan between K1 and K2. :dozey:

lukeiamyourdad
08-24-2005, 07:15 PM
Notice how you don't see any Jedi Masters use force storm. To use a power like that would go against several of the Jedi's major beliefs.

I imagine a Jedi Master could be corrupted by storm, but it would take a VERY long time.

Using the Dark Side of the force naturally corrupts people. Look at Exar Kun. He was a slightly more brutal (but not evil) Jedi. He goes to Korriban, gets trapped under a bunch of rocks, and under Freedon Nadd's influence, uses the Dark Side to force his way out and keep himself alive. Such a heavy usage of the Dark Side corrupted him.

You totally missed the point. I don't doubt that using the Dark Side would corrupt someone but it doesn't work that way in KotOR. You'd have to force the gameplay mechanics so that Dark Siders only use Dark Side powers while Lightsiders only use Light side powers. However, modifying a pretty much hardcoded thing into the concept of KotOR wouldn't be smart now.

stingerhs answered the rest.

Emperor Devon
08-24-2005, 08:33 PM
not really. if Taris was destroyed by a Death Star instead of a bunch of ships firing a barrage of blaster fire, would that make Malak eviler??okay, then you just completely ignored the fact that Darth Vader was the most powerful Dark Jedi in existance. also, just because the circumstances were different doesn't make it irrelevant. the Sith were hunting down the Jedi in both instances. and it is quite logical that there are survivors to any catastrophe.

You misunderstand me. Say someone kills a puppie. The person would be eviler if they enjoyed it, rather than if they were bullied into it.

Darth Vader is a Sith, not a Dark Jedi. Please make sure your facts are accurate before arguing over them.

The Sith were also hunting down the Jedi in different ways. In RotS, there are a couple thousand Jedi, and two Sith. In TSL (When the Sith begin hunting down the Jedi) There are a hundred Jedi, and thousands of Sith Assassins who target their enemies through the force. The Sith Lords in the events of TSL were far stronger than the ones in RotS. Those are different circumstances, which will have different results.

did the Jews escape the Holocaust while living in Germany?? obviously not all of them, but that didn't mean that a number of them didn't escape.well, not everyone can detect a child. although Vader was the most powerful Sith of all time, not even he could detect that Luke or Leia was his own children until they had gained power.

That is because he didn't know they existed. When he last saw Padme, she had given birth to his children, and Palpatine told Vader he had killed her. And when he met Leia on board the Tantive IV, he had no way of knowing she was his duaghter. Her last name was Organa, not Skywalker, and he had no other way of recognizing her.

and yes, a 10 year old kid could be a 15 year old teenager during the timespan between K1 and K2. :dozey:

We must have different definitions little kids, then. In my opinion, a little kid would be five.

You totally missed the point. I don't doubt that using the Dark Side would corrupt someone but it doesn't work that way in KotOR. You'd have to force the gameplay mechanics so that Dark Siders only use Dark Side powers while Lightsiders only use Light side powers. However, modifying a pretty much hardcoded thing into the concept of KotOR wouldn't be smart now.

Being a video game, Lucasarts could not make everything realistic. Instead, they just made force powers of the opposite alignment cost more.

stingerhs
08-24-2005, 08:51 PM
Darth Vader is a Sith, not a Dark Jedi. Please make sure your facts are accurate before arguing over them.my facts are quite clear. no matter how you look at it, Darth Vader is the most powerful of any Dark Jedi or Sith that has ever existed. and perhaps unknown to you, the term 'Sith' is often synonimous with 'Dark Jedi'.That is because he didn't know they existed. When he last saw Padme, she had given birth to his children, and Palpatine told Vader he had killed her. And when he met Leia on board the Tantive IV, he had no way of knowing she was his duaghter. Her last name was Organa, not Skywalker, and he had no other way of recognizing her.once again, you are missing the point. the Assassins didn't detect the Exile because s/he could not feel the Force. the same can be said about children to a certain extent: unless they recieve training, a child couldn't have enough power to make an impact in the Force enough to attract the attention of the Sith Assassins. note that a disturbance in the Force wasn't felt by either Palpatine or Vader concerning Luke until he had met up with Yoda on Dagobah.We must have different definitions little kids, then. In my opinion, a little kid would be five.then you are quite ignorant. the general concensus refers to young humans as "children" before they reach adolescence, which is around 11-13 years old depending on differing biological factors. that means from the age of 8 in K1, that child would be a teenager in K2.Being a video game, Lucasarts could not make everything realistic. Instead, they just made force powers of the opposite alignment cost more.which is logical considering this is a story-based RPG, and not an action oriented game. having your alignment modified in the middle of combat, based solely on the alignment base of a Force Power you use, doesn't fit in the genre of story-based RPG's.

Jeff
08-24-2005, 08:56 PM
The Sith were also hunting down the Jedi in different ways. In RotS, there are a couple thousand Jedi, and two Sith. In TSL (When the Sith begin hunting down the Jedi) There are a hundred Jedi, and thousands of Sith Assassins who target their enemies through the force. The Sith Lords in the events of TSL were far stronger than the ones in RotS. Those are different circumstances, which will have different results.
But in RotS, the Sith had all the clones (which numbered more than the number of Sith Assassins in kotor) to kill all the Jedi, plus the Jedi weren't expecting the clones to attack them. So the ways that the Jedi were attacked were not so different.

Emperor Devon
08-24-2005, 09:18 PM
my facts are quite clear. no matter how you look at it, Darth Vader is the most powerful of any Dark Jedi or Sith that has ever existed. and perhaps unknown to you, the term 'Sith' is often synonimous with 'Dark Jedi' .

Darth Vader doesn't have the power to kill a whole planet with nothing but the force, does he?
Sith and Dark Jedi are seperate. A Sith is a person who is a member of the Sith, and has been trained by a Sith Master, and has achieved a rank within them. A Dark Jedi a force-sensitive individual who uses the Dark Side, but is not a memeber of the Sith (Empire).

once again, you are missing the point. the Assassins didn't detect the Exile because s/he could not feel the Force. the same can be said about children to a certain extent: unless they recieve training, a child couldn't have enough power to make an impact in the Force enough to attract the attention of the Sith Assassins .

Get your facts straight. When a person sensitive to the Force is born, their strength in the Force does not increase by natural means. Instead, they learn how to effectively channel and wield their power.

note that a disturbance in the Force wasn't felt by either Palpatine or Vader concerning Luke until he had met up with Yoda on Dagobah.

That was because when Luke met up with Yoda, he learned how to effectively wield his power. Before that, he had power, but could wield it.

then you are quite ignorant. the general concensus refers to young humans as "children" before they reach adolescence, which is around 11-13 years old depending on differing biological factors.

I only said little kid, not child. My definition of a little kid is someone five and under. A kid is six to adolescence.

having your alignment modified in the middle of combat, based solely on the alignment base of a Force Power you use, doesn't fit in the genre of story-based RPG's.

Which is exactly why Bioware did not include that realistic factor.

lukeiamyourdad
08-24-2005, 10:22 PM
Get your facts straight. When a person sensitive to the Force is born, their strength in the Force does not increase by natural means. Instead, they learn how to effectively channel and wield their power.

In TSL, there is no mention of Sith assassins targeting Force Sensitive children. Only Jedi, but even so, if the Sith believe the Jedi extinct, why would they bother killing Force sensitive children if nobody is there to train them?


That was because when Luke met up with Yoda, he learned how to effectively wield his power. Before that, he had power, but could wield it.

So that counters stingerhs' argument how?
The fact remains that nothing was felt until Vader came very close to Luke (the Death Star trench run in ANH).



I only said little kid, not child. My definition of a little kid is someone five and under. A kid is six to adolescence.

You can't live by just following your own personnal conventions.



Which is exactly why Bioware did not include that realistic factor.

And the reason they should include it is?

SITHSLAYER133
08-24-2005, 10:38 PM
ok heres wat i think
1 jedi could use dark powers but it would be harder for them to use because they dont no how to draw energy for that type of attack in this characters case
yaddle - same races as master ypda
Morichro, a method for killing a being without using the Dark Side of the Force

2 if u no how 2 use it then it would become easier to use think of it like a skill such as typing the more u use the better you become so there isnt really light or darkness

THE MANDALORE
08-24-2005, 11:05 PM
Darth Vader doesn't have the power to kill a whole planet with nothing but the force, does he?
Sith and Dark Jedi are seperate. A Sith is a person who is a member of the Sith, and has been trained by a Sith Master, and has achieved a rank within them. A Dark Jedi a force-sensitive individual who uses the Dark Side, but is not a memeber of the Sith (Empire).


Umm... Nihilus didn't have that sort of power either. According to Kreia, it was just gut instinct that happened thorough a person's feelings and therefore Nihilus didn't have any way to control it.
Besides, who wants to kill a planet with the force when you have the Death Star? That's like buying an electric pencil sharpener and still sharpening pencils manually (srry. couldn't think of a better analogy).

Although I agree with your points on the difference between Sith and Dark Jedi, I am confused as to why Malak sent Dark Jedi after us in KOTOR instead of full-fledged Sith Masters. Anyone have any theories?

lukeiamyourdad
08-24-2005, 11:12 PM
Although I agree with your points on the difference between Sith and Dark Jedi, I am confused as to why Malak sent Dark Jedi after us in KOTOR instead of full-fledged Sith Masters. Anyone have any theories?

Dark Jedi mercs I guess. Or maybe followers who haven't trained under the Sith yet.

Emperor Devon
08-25-2005, 12:21 AM
In TSL, there is no mention of Sith assassins targeting Force Sensitive children. Only Jedi, but even so, if the Sith believe the Jedi extinct, why would they bother killing Force sensitive children if nobody is there to train them?

SOmehow, they might become Jedi. They could stumble across some old holocrons.

And the reason they should include it is?

I've already said that's realisitc. Put two and two together.

RedHawke
08-25-2005, 06:04 AM
Darth Vader doesn't have the power to kill a whole planet with nothing but the force, does he?
Not that any of his D6 or D20 stat sheets ever showed. :D

[Fond Memories] Yes, the D6 RPG power Create Force Storms I remember it well... it comes from the Dark Empire sourcebook. And you can indeed consume whole planets! :emperor:

Get your facts straight. When a person sensitive to the Force is born, their strength in the Force does not increase by natural means. Instead, they learn how to effectively channel and wield their power.
Actually if we are talking pure game mechanics here, a person is not usually born Force Sensitive in the eyes of an RPG system...

WEG D6 RPG you have to spend 40 Character Points to become Force Sensitive or take a Character Template that starts that way... then you can spend CP to purchase the Force Skills of Control, Sense, or Alter plus the obligatory CP's per Force Power learned, if you have a "Master/Holocron" or at Double the CP cost if you are learning by yourself. Or lastly you play the printed adventure "Battle for the Golden Sun." ;)

D20 RPG you have to aquire the Force Sensitive Feat, either through the GM or when you gain a feat through levelling, or start as a Jedi class.

Both these systems allow for learning the ways of the Force without a Master/Teacher...

Just FYI! :D

lukeiamyourdad
08-25-2005, 08:48 AM
SOmehow, they might become Jedi. They could stumble across some old holocrons.

Or they could train them to be Sith. That's not the point. There's no indication whatsoever of the Sith Assassins targetting Force Sensitive children.



I've already said that's realisitc. Put two and two together.

You've also agreed that changing alignment in the middle of combat based solely on the kind of Force powers you use didn't fit the story-based RPG genre.

stingerhs said this:

having your alignment modified in the middle of combat, based solely on the alignment base of a Force Power you use, doesn't fit in the genre of story-based RPG's.

to which you replied:
Which is exactly why Bioware did not include that realistic factor.

It obviously means that you agreed that it didn't fit into a story-based RPG.
Or perhaps you want JK of the Old Republic...

Aristotélēsticus
08-25-2005, 11:08 AM
I think that Devon spook some truth, because lucasfilm has stated that the true chronicle end for both games is the lightside one, and as the third game might be the end of the story, there must be something certain.

Well, we all like to choose, and the both games gave us this pleasure but at this game you might choose from the beginning, like choosing Revan/Exile alignment, gender and other things…and about changing your alignment during the game, I believe that this well make the story a little bit silly, you know what I mean; light then dark then light...etc, changing their alignment will make the characters look as a shaky personalities, like they don’t know what they want to do, and this is not how the leaders are (as they are both leaders).

After all I believe that I am now starting to fall from the light side as I sensed some wrongs in the Jedi philosophy, and for this I think that me and Devon agreeing on the not-choosing matter because we deals with absolutes. :vadar:

Bastila
08-25-2005, 12:13 PM
Wow i missed a big conversation lol, all i want to say is isn't the KOTOR games based on your choiced so LS/DS should be there change your path at any time or just be LS or DS fully.

Aristotélēsticus
08-25-2005, 01:14 PM
if there will be a new PC then it will be with choices, but being Revan or The Exile then choos again, it will be silly as i said before, anyway there must be an absolute end for Revan and the Exile's journey.

lukeiamyourdad
08-25-2005, 05:49 PM
I think that Devon spook some truth, because lucasfilm has stated that the true chronicle end for both games is the lightside one, and as the third game might be the end of the story, there must be something certain.

No, there doesn't. Remember's TSL questions?

Well, we all like to choose, and the both games gave us this pleasure but at this game you might choose from the beginning, like choosing Revan/Exile alignment, gender and other things…and about changing your alignment during the game, I believe that this well make the story a little bit silly, you know what I mean; light then dark then light...etc, changing their alignment will make the characters look as a shaky personalities, like they don’t know what they want to do, and this is not how the leaders are (as they are both leaders).

Which is why it's bad idea to play with Revan or the Exile.

I still don't understand why people have such a small imagination. Doesn't anyone here think that their stories can be resolved without playing as the both of them? In TSL, we got the continuation of Revan's story without the character ever appearing.

KotOR got praises from everyone, pretty much everyone who played the game, for being able to change your alignment through your actions and some of you even consider scrap one of the fundamentals, one of the things that make KotOR what it is?

Aristotélēsticus
08-25-2005, 06:14 PM
I said that if it's about a new pc then you must have a lot of choices, and that’s why I am with the idea of a new pc.

About the questions, yes you have choose your own story through them, such as Revan's gender and alignment, but now you will encountered them so if you have two possibilities for both (gender and alignment) then there will be 8 ones and if you add your choices which are four: so just try to imagine how much possibilities you will have in the storyline, off course we did not feel this in TSL because answering the question only effect the dialogue, but now it will effect the whole storyline, because if the characters did not appear as it was in TSL, then it will be -in my opinion- a big disappointment, I mean imagine some one tells you in the game that Revan was killed by the true sith, or returned to the republic and you didn’t encountered him, and that the same thing happened to the exile…we accepted this in TSL because we knew (or at least hopped) that there will be another episode, I don’t know what the people will think if it happened like this, but I will be disappointed.

Emperor Devon
08-25-2005, 09:00 PM
[Fond Memories] Yes, the D6 RPG power Create Force Storms I remember it well... it comes from the Dark Empire sourcebook. And you can indeed consume whole planets! :emperor:

Fond memories indeed... And also the undoing of the first Eclipse.

That was one thing Bioware got wrong... They called a buffed-up version of lightning "storm".

Or they could train them to be Sith. That's not the point. There's no indication whatsoever of the Sith Assassins targetting Force Sensitive children.

There was no indication of the True SIth or the Exile in KOTOR I. Who's to say they can't bring that point up in KOTOR III? Anyhow, it would be illogical for them not to eliminate all potential threats.

It obviously means that you agreed that it didn't fit into a story-based RPG.
Or perhaps you want JK of the Old Republic...

You are now resorting to feeble accusations to make your arguments look superior. I have already stated my opinion about a JK of the Old Republic. If you would like to know it, use the search function. In KOTOR I, a Light Sider using death field (or some other Dark Side power) would not make much of a difference. It would take years for someone to be corrupted by that - and KOTOR does not last years.

I still don't understand why people have such a small imagination. Doesn't anyone here think that their stories can be resolved without playing as the both of them?

They could be, but it would not feel as fulfilling.

In TSL, we got the continuation of Revan's story without the character ever appearing.

But not the resolution. THose are completely different things.

KotOR got praises from everyone, pretty much everyone who played the game, for being able to change your alignment through your actions and some of you even consider scrap one of the fundamentals, one of the things that make KotOR what it is?

There is a difference. In KOTOR I, Revan starts out without his memories, so he is free to determine his alignment without flip-flopping. Revan can change his alignment in the game whenever he wants, up until the temple summit. Would it make much sense if Revan goes from Light Side to Dark Side to Light Side? No. That's not "redemption". That's flip-flopping.

I am with the idea of a new pc.

*raises eyebrows*

Jeff
08-25-2005, 09:08 PM
Would it make much sense if Revan goes from Light Side to Dark Side to Light Side? No. That's not "redemption". That's flip-flopping.
Anakin/Vader did that...

Emperor Devon
08-25-2005, 09:12 PM
Over a period of decades, not several years.

lukeiamyourdad
08-25-2005, 09:28 PM
There was no indication of the True SIth or the Exile in KOTOR I. Who's to say they can't bring that point up in KOTOR III? Anyhow, it would be illogical for them not to eliminate all potential threats.

Why? They'd be hunting shadows. They are not potential threats if nobody can train them. Falling on a holocron is not nearly as good as falling on a teacher.
If that was so, why wasn't the Empire after Luke before his encounter with the droids?
And no True Sith or Exile in K1 is a poor example. During the time of K1, it was uncertain if the game would do well enough to make a sequel or not. Thus starting to talk about characters in a potentiel sequel would only seem weird if there is no sequel.
Besides, the True Sith and the Exile had nothing to do with the events of K1. Only when Revan started having flashbacks of the True Sith did it become relevent.
Anyway, the explanations were clear. The Sith targeted the Jedi, not the potentiel Jedi. I think that killing Force sensitive children is a serious enough information to be mentionned somewhere in the game.

You are now resorting to feeble accusations to make your arguments look superior. I have already stated my opinion about a JK of the Old Republic. If you would like to know it, use the search function. In KOTOR I, a Light Sider using death field (or some other Dark Side power) would not make much of a difference. It would take years for someone to be corrupted by that - and KOTOR does not last years.

I did not accuse you of anything. I did say "perhaps". If I said that you indeed wanted a JK of the Old Republic, I would have said so.
Second of all, you missed the entire point or went over it in haste. You agree obviously that using the Dark Side force powers does not corrupt enough (or at all). You also agreed that changing alignment during combat just because of the Force power you're using is not fitting with the story-based RPG genre.

Yet, your whole argument rested upon that single fact, that using rage and passion (therefore Dark Side powers) would make the character eviler. Of course, it doesn't work that way in KotOR because it's a story-based RPG. I will remind you again that you agreed that it didn't fit in.

You've pretty much destroyed your own argument.


They could be, but it would not feel as fulfilling.

People said the same thing about the Exile, saying that it wouldn't be as fulfilling to play as him instead of Revan. Nonetheless, as I already said, there's another thread for this.


But not the resolution. THose are completely different things.

Not at all.
They could be present in some form or another. Playing as them or having them as NPCs is a completely different matter. Besides, discussion for another thread.



There is a difference. In KOTOR I, Revan starts out without his memories, so he is free to determine his alignment without flip-flopping. Revan can change his alignment in the game whenever he wants, up until the temple summit. Would it make much sense if Revan goes from Light Side to Dark Side to Light Side? No. That's not "redemption". That's flip-flopping.

Call it whatever you want, look at Anakin. Light Side-Dark Side-Light Side. Also, note that there's not enough DS or LS points in the game to make you really a flip-flopper. Besides, who gets to the Light, falls to the Dark and comes back to the Light and then falls back to the Dark again all in one game?

lukeiamyourdad
08-25-2005, 09:28 PM
Over a period of decades, not several years.

20 years. We don't even know how long K3 is going to be set after K2.

SITHSLAYER133
08-25-2005, 09:48 PM
devon im seroius ur idea sounds o ...... k...... becuase i allways decide before i play wat alignment im gona be but half the fun is watching the character go either way

Emperor Devon
08-26-2005, 02:54 AM
Why? They'd be hunting shadows. They are not potential threats if nobody can train them. Falling on a holocron is not nearly as good as falling on a teacher.

They are potential threats because they have the capacity to become Jedi! To leave them alone would be stupid... and it would require almost no effort to eliminate them.

You underestimate the power of holocrons... Exar Kun used one to corrupt many Jedi to his cause.

If that was so, why wasn't the Empire after Luke before his encounter with the droids?

If you cannot argue effectively, then you should not argue at all. What do you call how the Empire sends stormtroopers to destroy Luke's home and the sandcrawler. There's also that relatively minor incident of the Death Star... :rolleyes:

I thought even you would be able to know such obvious facts.

And no True Sith or Exile in K1 is a poor example. During the time of K1, it was uncertain if the game would do well enough to make a sequel or not. Thus starting to talk about characters in a potentiel sequel would only seem weird if there is no sequel.

In KOTOR I, they do not explain how Revan fell to the Dark Side. Sure, they explain about the Star Forge, but it was obvious Revan was evil before he found the Star Maps.

Anyway, the explanations were clear. The Sith targeted the Jedi, not the potentiel Jedi.

Why did Anakin kill the younglings? After Anakin was through the Jedi, no one could have trained them (Yoda and Obi-Wan could not risk being exposed), so why kill them?

I think that killing Force sensitive children is a serious enough information to be mentionned somewhere in the game.

Just because they didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do the Sith Troopers on Manaan brush their teeth? Probably. Do they mention it? No.

You agree obviously that using the Dark Side force powers does not corrupt enough (or at all).

It does corrupt. It just takes a while.

You also agreed that changing alignment during combat just because of the Force power you're using is not fitting with the story-based RPG genre.

It would not fit in well, but it would be realistic.

Yet, your whole argument rested upon that single fact, that using rage and passion (therefore Dark Side powers) would make the character eviler.

There is a difference. You could use lightning, though it would corrupt you over a long time.
If you used passion to fuel your attacks and the power of the Dark Side to dominate your movements, that would corrupt you, though it would take less time.

Besides, discussion for another thread.

Backing out of it, eh?

look at Anakin. Light Side-Dark Side-Light Side.

Light Side: A little over a decade. Dark Side: several decades.

With Revan... Dark Side: a couple years. Light Side: A few years...

Also, note that there's not enough DS or LS points in the game to make you really a flip-flopper. Besides, who gets to the Light, falls to the Dark and comes back to the Light and then falls back to the Dark again all in one game?

You yourself said that you should be able to change your alignment in KOTOR III even if you'd determined it in KOTOR I! We are not talking about one game! You are undermining your own arguments.

I did not accuse you of anything.

perhaps you want JK of the Old Republic...

But not the resolution. THose are completely different things.

Not at all.

Continuation: Something going on. Resolution: Something ending.

ChAiNz.2da
08-26-2005, 06:39 AM
If you cannot argue effectively, then you should not argue at all. What do you call how the Empire sends stormtroopers to destroy Luke's home and the sandcrawler. There's also that relatively minor incident of the Death Star...

I thought even you would be able to know such obvious facts.
Umm... they didn't send Stormtroopers to destroy "Luke's" home or the Sandcrawlers. They were sent to retrieve the droids and the plans for the Deathstar. If anyone got in the way (ergo an immediate threat, not potential) then they were dealt with.
They didn't even know who "Luke" was... and if it were some other no-name family that gained possession of the droids, their fate would've been the same as Luke's mishap ;)

What about the Deathstar? again, Vader sensed Obi-Wan, not Luke... Luke wasn't the pivotal plot point at that time in the movie and wasn't even thought of as a threat until the space battle ravine scene when Vader mentions the all important quote "The Force is strong with this 'one'..."

Not "Luke", not "My Son".. but "one"... again, he was nothing to Vader but another fly to swat at...

Until Dagobah, the introduction of Yoda.. and the training Luke received afterwards did he even cause Vader to have a second thought on who this "Luke" person was...

lukeiamyourdad
08-26-2005, 08:37 AM
They are potential threats because they have the capacity to become Jedi! To leave them alone would be stupid... and it would require almost no effort to eliminate them.

You've never answered their capacity to become Sith too. Besides, is a realistic assumption for a few thousand Sith to go look for Force Sensitive children in a galaxy with Billions and over Billions of inhabitants? They'd have to bomb to oblivion who knows how many worlds.

If you cannot argue effectively, then you should not argue at all. What do you call how the Empire sends stormtroopers to destroy Luke's home and the sandcrawler. There's also that relatively minor incident of the Death Star... :rolleyes:

Look at ChaiNz.2da' post


In KOTOR I, they do not explain how Revan fell to the Dark Side. Sure, they explain about the Star Forge, but it was obvious Revan was evil before he found the Star Maps.

It wasn't that obvious. Though you are right that a few clues could be gathered to make that conclusion.
There are clues.
For killing Force Sensitive children, there was none.

Why did Anakin kill the younglings? After Anakin was through the Jedi, no one could have trained them (Yoda and Obi-Wan could not risk being exposed), so why kill them?

Because they already had training. See how Jett killed a bunch of Clone Troopers before going down? Could a child with no training, no lightsaber, no knowledge about his powers, no training whatsoever cut down so many enemies?



Just because they didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do the Sith Troopers on Manaan brush their teeth? Probably. Do they mention it? No.

They didn't mention it because it was unimportant. Killing Force Sensitive children however, is a very important thing.



It does corrupt. It just takes a while.
It would not fit in well, but it would be realistic.
There is a difference. You could use lightning, though it would corrupt you over a long time.
If you used passion to fuel your attacks and the power of the Dark Side to dominate your movements, that would corrupt you, though it would take less time.

Obviously, you're just avoiding the argument here. That's simply not how it works in the KotOR story-based RPG. You even agreed that it wouldn't fit well.
There's an old saying that we old members of Geebeedotcom use:
"Gameplay>Realism"


Backing out of it, eh?

No, taking it where it is relevent.



Light Side: A little over a decade. Dark Side: several decades.

With Revan... Dark Side: a couple years. Light Side: A few years...

What exactly would be the problem with time? What if Vader saved his son and came back to the light 5 years after RotS?
Time is rather unimportant, it is the events that are. You can look at many other stories of Light Side Jedi falling to the Dark and getting back to the Light in a matter of years.


You yourself said that you should be able to change your alignment in KOTOR III even if you'd determined it in KOTOR I! We are not talking about one game! You are undermining your own arguments.

No, I also said that MY PC will be a NEW one. You again, assume that you're going to play as Revan and that my opinion is the same.


Continuation: Something going on. Resolution: Something ending.

Thank you for the definitions. I feel very smarter now.
It may be different in definition, but in practice what are you going to do?
There are many reasons why NOT to include Revan and the Exile as PC.
This thread and your "let's destroy one of KotOR's core gameplay mechanic" arguments prove once more why it's not a good idea to include them.

stingerhs
08-26-2005, 09:31 AM
This thread and your "let's destroy one of KotOR's core gameplay mechanic" arguments prove once more why it's not a good idea to include them.i entirely agree. so far Devon, your entire bit of arguements have seemed to be nothing more than speculation that have very few bases to which you can back them up.

second, calling for the end of one of the core mechanics of the game (choosing your character's alignment throughout the story) is not something developers are going to pay much attention to. and the easy answer is simply money. most gaming franchises don't bother changing core mechanics unless they think it will make a large benefit to the franchise as a whole, and therefore make the sequel sell better. even then, its always a gamble since the core mechanics are usually what define a franchise.

in the case of the Kotor franchise, removing the ability to choose your alignment throughout the story would be a massive departure to what has already been established as one of the best aspects of the game. go ahead and actually read some of the game reviews: it was a brilliant innovation to the story-based RPG. to remove it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and it would more than likely cost both LA and whomever develops it a large amount of money.

thirdly, its also been well established in this poll (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=150699) that an overwhelmingly large majority of people within this fan-base at LucasForums want to see a new PC as the main character. do we care how its implemented? not really as long as it makes sense story-wise. what you're proposing is a gross simplification that leaves hardly any creativity for the developers to work with. and it also means that your arguements will largely fall on deaf ears. if you don't believe me, then go ahead and number the nay-sayers in this thread and compare that number to the number of positive responses. and while you're at it, go ahead and number the positive responses from regular forum goers that have been around in the fan community for a long time.

edit: what the heck, i'll even start a new thread with this same title and make sure it has a poll in it that asks "Should the ability to deturmine your PC's alignment during the story be removed?". and, of course, merge the threads. but, not unless you want me to.

itzoktobstupeed
09-28-2005, 11:28 AM
stingerhs: Alignment is, if I understand it correctly, the sum of your past deeds. Yet, I think it cannot 'judge' the goodness of a PC's character accurately - Not because I think it unfeasible to represent morality on a scale (a scale which exists in all our minds), but rather because that scale is subjective. This would be where lukeiamyourdad's 'gameplay vs reality' comes in.

With that said, to all: I must clarify that I've only played KotOR (which I bought in 03 and completed many times). <paragraph deleted>

Devon's idea of separate Light and Dark campaigns is feasible, I think. However, might I propose that they do not remain two separate paths, but rather are only different starting points for our PC? In this way, the PC would not have to be morally neutral at the beginning, yet the potential for falling to evil, or redeeming him/herself would exist.

Feel free to correct what I wrote!

AnarKy
09-28-2005, 07:44 PM
I agree there must be only one end to this saga, but I think its possible to make the same end for a darkside or lightside pc. It would not happen the same way but the result would be the same.

TreeX
09-28-2005, 08:35 PM
Basically Devon's Idea of ripping out one of KotOR's core mechanics is.. forgive me but plain stupidity. The idea and ability to as you call it, 'flip-flop' has been one of the favorite aspects of the game, as Stingerhs said, read the reviews, you'd probably get one in a thousand saying your idea. Whats wrong with going dark side- lightside - darkside etc over a period of a few years? As for the arguement about the corruption with dark side use, look at Kotor 1, the majority of Dark Jedi you meet will pull off Force Absorb then engage you in combat, does that mean Dark Siders would be converted to the light?

Also in claiming about the Dark Side usage and falling beyond redemption, look at Ajunta Pall, dead for what a few milleniums and yet he still wants to go back to the light, the corruption of the dark side depends on the character's will, also the fact that IN kotor 1 and 2 you can load up your character with dark force powers and yet keep getting lightside points, odd form of corruption? it depends on the character's will if they get corrupted.

now i can't be bothered scrolling down to look at the rest of your arguements.. damn too sleepy... next time get a few more arguements to back up before you try destroying KotOR :cowdance

PS: personally I don't care whether you come back as Revan, Exile or a new PC, long as eventually one of these days teh game gets wrapped up. :ears1:

EDIT: oh yeah Stingerhs don't take offence if I use your 'Core Mechanics' word... seems just more sophisticated then 'Game Alignment Thingy', i apologise b/c ppl seem to slap me for using another person's words

Lettuce
09-28-2005, 11:11 PM
I'd have to agree with most of the people here and say that changing the alignment system in the way you suggested is bad idea. While I think it could use some changes especially with Light side masters drawing upon the Dark Side of the force. I think this should affect the characters alignment after awhile but it doesnt have to be a major shift just something remind you that using the Dark Side of the force has consequences.

I also have to disagree with you needing to play as Revan or the Exile to continue or end thier stories. This game could have nothing to do with either of them and as far as we know their stories as far as KOTOR is concerned could be finished. Lots of games have left main characters futures up in the air never to be offically decided. The chances are this game will be done by a new developer(unless thier was an annoucement I am unaware of) who may shift the KOTOR series in a different direction. Personally I would the love it if the story was about rebuilding the Jedi Order and we were presented with a different main enemy just as long as they arent just some random new super powerful bad guy who just showed up in this galaxy yesterday. I think a new ambitous Exchange boss would make an intresting villian. He/she realizes that with the Republic in shambles and with the Jedi and Sith gone(even thougth they really arent) they have one hell of an opportunity to set up the Exchange as the domiant power in the galaxy.

Kain
09-29-2005, 04:42 AM
You could start out halfway down your chosen path, that way you'd have to fight to redeem or just completly fail to fall. But atleast you hafta work toward something (as opposed to just being 'gray' off the bat). I don't care who you are, you've either led a life of bad or a life of good, and it should show.

BumpoTheHutt
09-29-2005, 05:59 AM
Over a period of decades, not several years.

Darth Vader "flipped" (to use your term) from the darkest of dark guys back to the light in a matter of minutes at the end of ROTJ.

As a matter of fact, his "fall" in ROTS didn't seem to take too terribly long either, once he knew there was something he wanted/needed from the dark side.

Where does "decades" come into play?

FunSolo
10-01-2005, 11:22 AM
vader "flipped" just cause of the fact luke was the son of the woman he loved that much since he was a child. i think everybody would come to this in a situation like that, no matter how evil you are.
plus, i think this discussion bout anakin/vader is pretty useless in a thread bout a kotor3 thang.
sure, hes a good example of fallin to the darkside, but whatever. it doesnt matter to this games.

but a decision of revans/exiles gender/alignment at the startup would be good for speeding up development and savin time for more worth content, even if u start as a new pc or as one of them. u can lean all the dialoques to that starting point or choose different places to start at just of your decisions at the beginning.

so i might give a 'go on' for this.

Emperor Devon
10-01-2005, 12:05 PM
Do you have people have nothing better to do? You're about a month late for the debate...

AnarKy
10-03-2005, 12:11 AM
Sorry Devon but i thing your idea would destroy all the good thing in kotor, the light/darth side system used in the 1 and 2 is great.

BumpoTheHutt
10-03-2005, 08:09 AM
Do you have people have nothing better to do? You're about a month late for the debate...

Sorry Devon, I must have missed the post in which you defined a time-limit for this discussion. You might, in all your endeavors to be as negative and argumentative as you seem to be in this thread, keep in mind that not everyone sees these things as soon as they're posted. And some of us are relatively new to the Lucas Forums and may have, however unworthy of your superior and all-knowing intellect, opinions of our own that we wish to express.

1500 posts. Don't YOU have any have better have things have to have do?

Prime
10-03-2005, 09:17 AM
Revan and the Exile's alignments have been pretty much determined in the previous two games. Which is exactly why KOTOR 3 will be about a new character, just like the fact that both those characters have already increased in their powers.

Mark it down. KOTOR 3 will not have Revan or the Exile as the main PC.

RedHawke
10-04-2005, 01:06 AM
Mark it down. KOTOR 3 will not have Revan or the Exile as the main PC.
Quoted for emphasis! :D

SITHSLAYER133
10-04-2005, 11:01 AM
Umm... they didn't send Stormtroopers to destroy "Luke's" home or the Sandcrawlers. They were sent to retrieve the droids and the plans for the Deathstar. If anyone got in the way (ergo an immediate threat, not potential) then they were dealt with.
They didn't even know who "Luke" was... and if it were some other no-name family that gained possession of the droids, their fate would've been the same as Luke's mishap ;)

What about the Deathstar? again, Vader sensed Obi-Wan, not Luke... Luke wasn't the pivotal plot point at that time in the movie and wasn't even thought of as a threat until the space battle ravine scene when Vader mentions the all important quote "The Force is strong with this 'one'..."

Not "Luke", not "My Son".. but "one"... again, he was nothing to Vader but another fly to swat at...


ok this isnt exactly write palpi told vader about the one who destroyed the d star and he said it was his son and he told him to search his feelings

but at this time vader was more concered about how kenobi disapeared before he struck

ChAiNz.2da
10-04-2005, 12:13 PM
ok this isnt exactly write palpi told vader about the one who destroyed the d star and he said it was his son and he told him to search his feelings

but at this time vader was more concered about how kenobi disapeared before he struck
Perhaps. But none of this started until the 2nd movie (ep V) ;)

The time in question was during the 1st (or Ep IV rather) in which Luke wasn't considered a factor. Even on the Deathstar (pre 1st destruction)... it was Obi Wan with his band of merry people... even Luke at that time was just another person blasting Stormtroopers... no one was considered a significant threat in Vader's "Force Sense"...

j3di_sean
10-07-2005, 10:27 AM
Ahh... it's been a LONG LONG time since I've posted here and I see that there are changes in the site... all is looking well! Anyway... back on topic...

I think there should be morality stuff (DS and LS) because this is Star Wars, afterall, and you are a Jedi. Therefore there should be options which lead you towards the Light or the Dark.

However, I have a suggestion to make. The game makers (whoever they might be) could make things more SUBTLE. There should not be such a thing as dark/lightside POINTS. It's so unrealistic. I think to do without this 'point system' will make the game more interesting... and unpredictable...

YertyL
10-07-2005, 01:15 PM
well, more unpredictable is not necessarily better;
Normally, the prerequisit for someone acting in a good/evil way (and being good/evil) is for him to in a way wish to be good/evil or at least having emotions similar to hate/compassion etc.
However, for a game it should be extremly difficult to truly judge your emotions and intentions correctly (e.g. helping someone could be motivated both by simple compassion as well as wanting to keep him available as a tool for your own goals(Emperor helping Anakin after he was burnt at the end of Ep3 certainly was not an act of mere compassion))
I remember being pretty upset for getting DS points in KOTOR1 simply for saying "Even together they will be no match for me - remember that I once was a Sith Lord?" (which can be interpreted as arrogance, but also as an act of reassuring your party members (and yourself maybe :) )
Subtle dialogue optoins and the ability to manipulate people ingame would also require a very subtle and thought-through dialogue - and I am not sure if this is realistic or cost-effective for the producers... :(
But we can always hope :)

RedHawke
10-08-2005, 12:39 AM
However, I have a suggestion to make. The game makers (whoever they might be) could make things more SUBTLE. There should not be such a thing as dark/lightside POINTS. It's so unrealistic. I think to do without this 'point system' will make the game more interesting... and unpredictable...
Sorry, but the game is based on WotC D20 RPG system, so you are stuck with the current LS/DS Point System. Besides, there has to be some sort of scale to indicate where your PC is in alignment. :roleyess:

lukeiamyourdad
10-08-2005, 10:36 AM
Well, there's something I'd like to see is a way to convert excess LS/DS points into something.

For example, if you've already achieved Dark Side Mastery and you get more DS points, in the current state of things, nothing happens.

I'd like to get something for my efforts after getting mastery.

FunSolo
10-08-2005, 11:14 AM
*copied from another thread*
the biggest (and only) part that annoyed me in kotor 1 & 2 was, that u have to fight one and the same thing. same way, same quests, no matter if your light or darkside. it wasnt like in one of the movies. u just get through somewhere in the middle of it to choose something at the end to the point where it would start what i'd like to see.
it would be cool to choose sides at the beginning and still got the alignment thing variable like it was in k1&2, that u still can decide to switch side or go deeper with one, with different starting points, different plots depending on choices in the beginning, different ways through the whole game.. like the alien versus predator games, one story shown through 2 point of views or somthing. or one plot but more variety in choices with real acting characters, like when u go darkside ppl dont wanna talk to u, run in fear or attack u. stuff like that. not like this "awww your dark, let me convert you and let me answer all your questions" o0 gotta be more dramatic.
so that u fight real jedi as a dark, real sith as a light one, and not this gangs-garbage all the time till u meet the first one.
cause thats what made the movies so exiting: one story over 6 episodes. and this games feel like a rush through all the 6 movies story related.
and i bet that there will be no other part after a third kotor, if there will be a third at all.

j3di_sean
10-08-2005, 12:44 PM
Well, there's something I'd like to see is a way to convert excess LS/DS points into something.

For example, if you've already achieved Dark Side Mastery and you get more DS points, in the current state of things, nothing happens.

I'd like to get something for my efforts after getting mastery.

Well said. Yup.. there should be motivation for getting excess LS/DS points. Perhaps with each excess point and depending on your class, it will give a bonus point to your stats (i.e. +1 strength for Guardian, Wisdom for Consular, etc.)

Getting LS/DS mastery was pretty much the end of it.

RedHawke
10-09-2005, 03:03 AM
^^^^
Giving stat points is a little too much for LS or DS points.

Well, there's something I'd like to see is a way to convert excess LS/DS points into something.

For example, if you've already achieved Dark Side Mastery and you get more DS points, in the current state of things, nothing happens.

I'd like to get something for my efforts after getting mastery.
You mean something like, if you have DS Mastery and you get say 5 DS points it would instead add like 5 to your Force Point pool?

While it doesn't sound like much it would represent your further connection to the DS of the Force. The same could go for LS Mastery and gaining LS points.

:D

fresnosmokey02
10-09-2005, 10:24 AM
I am of the opinion that neutral force powers should be granted per level up, but aligned force powers should be learned in some manner or another rather than just granted. So you could have an option to learn certain force powers according to how strong your alignment is (how many alignment points you have), for example (and only an example), kill at 50%, force storm at 75%, and force crush at 100% DS alignments, respectively. The same for the light side. With the majority (the non-spectacular) of the aligned force powers being learnable at certain levels, the ones learnable at certain alignment levels would be the cooler powers as a sort of alignment reward. As an added bonus, if your alignment changes you don't lose the knowledge of the powers you've learned as alignment bonuses but you do lose the ability to use the powers. I don't know how difficult it would be to incorporate into the game, but it makes a certain sense to me.

lukeiamyourdad
10-09-2005, 11:12 AM
I think it would be quite hard to implement for Neutral characters like Jolee and Kreia. They do lean slightly to the dark or to the light, but not enough to get any kind of powers beside the neutral ones.
A character like that would be at a severe disadvantage.

fresnosmokey02
10-09-2005, 11:30 AM
I think it would be quite hard to implement for Neutral characters like Jolee and Kreia. They do lean slightly to the dark or to the light, but not enough to get any kind of powers beside the neutral ones.
A character like that would be at a severe disadvantage.

I always manually leveled Jolee so he had whatever powers I wanted him to have that he never used anyway lol. Kreia I always auto level. She never uses any powers except protections and speed she can cast on the PC anyway. So as far as they go they don't need any "prestige" type powers. It would make it more difficult for a neutral PC, but so what? You don't get a prestige class in K2 if you're PC is neutral (and all the cool stuff a certain mod gets you if you have that installed), which makes K2 a little more difficult as a neutral. So I don't really see a problem. And it might make it a little more interesting and repalyable as a neutral PC if certain powers are unattainable.

AnarKy
10-09-2005, 02:50 PM
Perhaps your alignment shouldn't be on a line between light and dark but on triangle between light, dark, and the neutral way of thinking of kreia. Then you could have prestige class for grey pc.

j3di_sean
10-10-2005, 03:09 AM
I think the part where the Light/Dark scale is a vertical bar works just fine. A triangle? nah...