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THE MANDALORE
08-27-2005, 01:02 PM
In KOTOR 3, should combat change?

In TSL you just have to sit back and let the PC do the work for you.

I would like to see an UNARMED combat system like the one in GTA:SA or Jade Empire. ONLY FOR UNARMED COMBAT.

For Lightsaber fights, I want a new system (D20 is getting a little old).

What are your ideas?

dryserg
08-27-2005, 01:20 PM
I think lightsaber combat should definetly improve, in terms of visuals,
- i mean, you stick your lightsaber right into guys face and hes still hanging out..-come on. i think we should see heads and arms being chopped, it also could be fun if you could drop lightsaber as a result of insufficient skill of influence of some force powers.
there must be actual different fighting styles!!!
like in ep III or ep II where every jedi had his unique style.

as of unarmed combat there should be elements of action game
otherwise it doesnt make sense.

fresnosmokey02
08-27-2005, 01:26 PM
No, don't change the combat. Change the animations for the differing lightsaber forms and fighting styles, sure. But I don't want to have to do the "a button a button b button c button a button" thing. I don't like FPS's or eye-hand games. I am a story type person. I want the story to be the game not the combat.

_Phaedrus_
08-27-2005, 01:27 PM
Yes, I agree, new combat system. Continuity's nice and all, but the trouble is D20 is just...boring. I prefer a more hands-on feel. I want to be able to shoot a blaster or swing a lightsaber myself, and not let D20 get in the way.

THE MANDALORE
08-27-2005, 01:36 PM
^^^^

I have to agree with you.

When you use a lightsaber in TSL, it doesn't feel like your using it, since the PC does all the work for you.

When I hit a person across the face, he should move, or have his arm chopped off if i'm using a lightsaber. I believe the correct term is "Real Time Physics" or something...

Oh welcome to the forums dryserg!
:D

Snafu7
08-27-2005, 01:52 PM
Well I loved the current combat system and I hope they don't change, but I wouldn't be really upset if they changed it so you had more control.

Palpatine_dc
08-27-2005, 02:19 PM
I really hope they don't change the combat system. It's supposed to be a RPG, if I want a FPS, I'll play Jedi Knight. More visual differences and better bouses for different forms is good though.
I would like to see some way of "Form Mastery". As it is now, the bonuses stay the same no mather if your a Padawan (BE level 6) or Jedi Master (or Sith Lord for that mather) at level 20-30. I want the bonuses to increase according to level reflecting the fact that years of practice in the same form gives the expierenced wielder an advantage over a beginner. You can see this in the movies: At the end of AotC Anakin lose to Count Dooku, but in the beginning of RotS, he is more experienced and beats the **** out of Dooku.

Vladimir-Vlada
08-27-2005, 02:37 PM
@Mandalore
I completely agree.

Look at ranged combat for example. It really sucked, no doging, no targetting, no feats, just they do the job for you. I want to move around, duck, jump, strafe, crouch and aim in ranged combat, I also want to have manual grenade throws.
How about the damage system from Deus Ex, certain body parts, with limited damage hurt the enemy... And what happened to head shots?! I want to see, whenever I shoot a guy in the head, that he falls to the ground, DEAD!

Melee combat also. What happened to immobilizing, saber locks, dismemberment, I want those things also, hack-&-slash style! Certain damage is done. Moves, combo moves, jumpping and so on.

Add two more things:

Vehicle driving, piloting and shooting. I want to shoot from a starfighter and the Ebon Hawk, I want to shoot people, buildings, upgrade those vehicles, drive across endless terrains of huge planets, explore planets, space, the Galaxy and asteroid belts.

Epic battles, commanding, controlling and planning. I am SICK and TIRED of acting as a special forces group. I want to recruit soldiers, train them and then command huge battles to conquer planets. I want to wage enormous space battles, lead epic ground battles and command troops.

Also, how about wielding both melee and ranged weapon at the same time? Hmm, :dozey: Heavy Blaster and Blue lightsaber, neat...

Plus, unarmed combat. What the hell was that?! You should be breaking their arms and throwing them at plasteel cylinders, or hit them in the heads.

All above should be controlled with both keyboard and mouse (Included jumpping).

What do you say? :D

IndianaSolo
08-27-2005, 02:48 PM
I want them to keep the same combat system as the first two games, perhaps with a bit of fine tuning such as more varied animations (not the same exact move over and over when you use flurry, etc). I'm not sure KOTOR would do well do use a Jade Empire-style combat system.

Palpatine_dc
08-27-2005, 03:02 PM
Look at ranged combat for example. It really sucked, no doging, no targetting, no feats, just they do the job for you. I want to move around, duck, jump, strafe, crouch and aim in ranged combat, I also want to have manual grenade throws.
How about the damage system from Deus Ex, certain body parts, with limited damage hurt the enemy... And what happened to head shots?! I want to see, whenever I shoot a guy in the head, that he falls to the ground, DEAD!

Melee combat also. What happened to immobilizing, saber locks, dismemberment, I want those things also, hack-&-slash style! Certain damage is done. Moves, combo moves, jumpping and so on.


While I agree that ranged combat was unsatisfying in KotOR, it's no reason to turn it into a first peron shooter or hack and slash game. There are more than enough sub standard shooters on the market, no need to turn KotOR into one.




Vehicle driving, piloting and shooting. I want to shoot from a starfighter and the Ebon Hawk, I want to shoot people, buildings, upgrade those vehicles, drive across endless terrains of huge planets, explore planets, space, the Galaxy and asteroid belts.


Try Battlefront 2 or SW Galaxies.



Epic battles, commanding, controlling and planning. I am SICK and TIRED of acting as a special forces group. I want to recruit soldiers, train them and then command huge battles to conquer planets. I want to wage enormous space battles, lead epic ground battles and command troops.


Try Empire at War.



Also, how about wielding both melee and ranged weapon at the same time? Hmm, :dozey: Heavy Blaster and Blue lightsaber, neat...



That sounds cool, and Luke Skywalker enters Bespin in TEsb wielding both a blaster and a lightsaber, so why can't we?

Emperor Devon
08-27-2005, 03:04 PM
I say they keep the D20 system, but expand upon it. There should be combo moves, decapitations... For saber locks, I'm thinking that if both characters make a regular attack, there's a 1 in 50 chance it'll be a lightsaber lock. The person with the higher strength wins the lock, but if the loser has a higher dexterity than the opponent's strength, (s)he dodges it.
Also, how the **** could you slash someone with a lightsaber and have them not die!? I'm certainly not saying sabers should be insta-kill weapons, but more like this... If you make a successful attack with your saber, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look rather feeble. If you fail with an attack, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look much stronger. When the opponent has low enough health that one more hit will finish them, that's when they should get hit by the saber.

Also, there's the lack of movement during duels. Why on earth does everyone stay in the same place rather than running around!? I think that if the character makes a successful attack, (s)he should advance upon the opponent, and take several steps forward, forcing the enemy back. The same could go for enemies - it would really help the lightsaber duels if the characters moved around.

Also, less swords and more guns. Even nowadays, we don't use swords that much, and cortosis is a very rare metal - why does everyone in the galaxy have it? Swords should be reserved for very few enemies.

Another thing I can think are new weapons - like missile launchers. I prefer my lightsaber, but I'd love to face some Sith Missile Troopers.

Lastly, new and better force powers. Lightning had great potential, but I think it would be better if the character held out both hands while using lightning, and did it until the opponent(s) died, or found a way to block it.

Vladimir-Vlada
08-27-2005, 03:21 PM
^^^^

Devon I can't agree with you more.

"Also, how the **** could you slash someone with a lightsaber and have them not die!? I'm certainly not saying sabers should be insta-kill weapons, but more like this... If you make a successful attack with your saber, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look rather feeble. If you fail with an attack, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look much stronger. When the opponent has low enough health that one more hit will finish them, that's when they should get hit by the saber.

Also, there's the lack of movement during duels. Why on earth does everyone stay in the same place rather than running around!? I think that if the character makes a successful attack, (s)he should advance upon the opponent, and take several steps forward, forcing the enemy back. The same could go for enemies - it would really help the lightsaber duels if the characters moved around."

My point exatcly! I mean, what kind of a duel is it when you stay in one place and just swing the lightsaber, and then after several turns the enemy loses health???

Where's the jumpping, the avoiding, the blocking, saber locks where you have to do something to benefit the outcome. In Galaxies for example, lightsaber dueling looked awsome!

"Lastly, new and better force powers. Lightning had great potential, but I think it would be better if the character held out both hands while using lightning, and did it until the opponent(s) died, or found a way to block it.
"

Yeah. How about, when using Force Wave, the enemies hit the wall and they fall unconciouss, or fry them with Force Lightning while they float in the air (Pretty sick, but more realistic :whacked: ).

Anyway, combat should be modified... A LOT.

dryserg
08-27-2005, 04:43 PM
I still like the idea of dropping lightsaber during combat
even yoda did it at leas two times in ep II and then in ep III
after Palpatine`s chain lightning force.
and then add new force power like "lightsaber pull" or something
so it could make lightsaber duels more realistic.
then theres fighting vs many opponents that certainly needs new
more real animation - right now it looks funny, you hit one guy and
there are 3 more beat the **** outa ya but still no attetion payed.
-and yes lightsaber is a deadly weapon any hit that penetrates
should do alot of damage at least chop some body part.
finaly - swords? vibroblades? what is it diabo 2???
how can possibly some one fight with sword/vibroblade vs. lightsaber?
it looks kinda funny.

Vladimir-Vlada
08-27-2005, 06:25 PM
"I still like the idea of dropping lightsaber during combat
even yoda did it at leas two times in ep II and then in ep III
after Palpatine`s chain lightning force.
and then add new force power like "lightsaber pull" or something
so it could make lightsaber duels more realistic.
then theres fighting vs many opponents that certainly needs new
more real animation - right now it looks funny, you hit one guy and
there are 3 more beat the **** outa ya but still no attetion payed.
-and yes lightsaber is a deadly weapon any hit that penetrates
should do alot of damage at least chop some body part.
finaly - swords? vibroblades? what is it diabo 2???
how can possibly some one fight with sword/vibroblade vs. lightsaber?
it looks kinda funny."

ME= Completely agree with you. :D

I mean seriously, why are there so many swords? What is this Neverwinter Nights? Save it for NWN 2, use guns instead, they're safer... LOL!

DarkMe
08-27-2005, 06:52 PM
They should inprove the blaster ect. combat! you always stand still and do nothing but dodge and shoot (and not so accurate). If you fight someone with a vibroblade?sword and you have a lightsaber then you should have the upperhand!! Mabye it's better if the vibroblade/sword get's damage and later destroyed when the damage level is full!!!
Just a tought...

Jeff
08-27-2005, 08:48 PM
I definately like ED's ideas. I hate it how people can get slashed by a lightsaber and not die. But stick with the d20 system; it wouldn't be kotor without it.

RedHawke
08-28-2005, 12:31 AM
Then some of you have no real idea what the D20 system or any other RPG system is?

First, the full or partial control of combat features, and having flashy moves, all of you are talking about, by design have no place in KOTOR or any RPG, while combat is important almost all RPG systems try to follow the following guidelines;

1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are.

2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers.

3) Not everything can be solved with combat... more rewards can be had for avoiding a fight... while many a game is basically "go into the dungeon and kill the monsters" sometimes there are monsters to strong to kill so you must find another way.

4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's.

Also even though you see very little, there is a lot going on in the background during combat, you get dodges and parry's in combat, you just don't have control over them... your ability to dodge is based on the total of your defence, as well as your ability to parry. This is how the D20 system works, and what the Defence rating means, it is a catch all number indicating how hard to hit you are, parts of it come from your armor (Physical Defense), parts come from your Dexterity (Dodge Defense), and parts come from your Shield/Items (Parry Defense). It is because of this that you get no individual Dodge and Parry chances in the game, it all is part of your Defense rating.

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.

So RPG's are not places for really flashy duals between foes like you all seem to want, Yoda vs. Dooku in an RPG is unlikely. The same applies with Blasters, visually according to RPG rules you stand there in one spot and shoot and shoot until your opponent is dead, moving incurs penalties to your shots, the same would apply to any ranged weaponry, even missile launchers, they would be no different than grenades are now, remember the nicks and cuts RPG combat guideline.

To alter the current ways of combat would be futile, while they could script in a few more "flashy" moves/animations for our PC's to use, they still wouldn't do more than they do now because that is the way the RPG systems are made.

RPG combat is not supposed to be a test of manual dexterity, it is supposed to be a test for the brain and a little luck of the die! ;)

Darth333
08-28-2005, 01:01 AM
Hehe I waited before posting: I was sure Redhawke would say it all! :p

I really hope that if they change the Kotor system it will be only an animation thing. I don't want KotOR to turn into some "semi FPS" game... Not only this would be a bad idea in terms of gameplay but it would be a loss of ressources ($). I definitely prefer to have a better story, more dialogue and character development options, bigger maps to explore, more freedom in the game.

TSL added a lot of goodies but they sacrificed the story.

JoshVoidstalker
08-28-2005, 01:14 AM
/\/\/\/\

RedHawke, I agree, but only so far.

"1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are."

True, but the game is boring if it gets too easy (or too hard) or if there is a lack of interaction with the environment.

"2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers."

True for D20, but not neccessarily true for all RPG systems. IMHO d20 is full of holes large enough to fly the Ebon Hawke through.

"3) Not everything can be solved with combat... more rewards can be had for avoiding a fight... while many a game is basically "go into the dungeon and kill the monsters" sometimes there are monsters to strong to kill so you must find another way."

I agree. This is the story telling, problem, quest, and puzzle solving bit.

"4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's."

Meh. Bladed weapons are fairly rare in the Canon (the film trilogies) they appear but never as front line weapons. I'm not saying they should dissapear, but the "rare" "cortosis weave" weapons ended up being anything but. The over-emphasis of the current combat engine on melee fighting derives from the fact that KOTOR is based on a cosmetic coverup of NWN. Which itself is a D20 beast. This aspect of the game felt the least like Star Wars to me. Which is of course why I play with the Blaster Rebalance Mod. I for one would not mind seeing a KOTOR III that had cortosis weave weapons (regular and vibro) as actually rare. Then we could see Jedi and Sith Slicing through weapons like they should.

"Also even though you see very little, there is a lot going on in the background during combat, you get dodges and parry's in combat, you just don't have control over them... your ability to dodge is based on the total of your defence, as well as your ability to parry. This is how the D20 system works, and what the Defence rating means, it is a catch all number indicating how hard to hit you are, parts of it come from your armor (Physical Defense), parts come from your Dexterity (Dodge Defense), and parts come from your Shield/Items (Parry Defense). It is because of this that you get no individual Dodge and Parry chances in the game, it all is part of your Defense rating."

Again, only in D20. There ARE other systems. Go back and play Fallout, Jagged Alliance, Vampire, Wastland, etc. Go sit down with some friends and a copy of GURPS, FUZION, WEG Star Wars, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0., Shadowrun, WOD, or Traveller. There are lots of ways to handle Combat and Damage. In my book Armor Class is the most idiotic idea I've ever seen. Armor stops Damage that has already struck you, It most certanly does not make you more difficult to strike. Go put on an Interceptor vest and an LBV with 30 punds of gear and ammo and play paintball; feel any more agile? Go put on some plate mail and then fight some SCA types, hard work no? Armor is there so that when you do get hit, it's not so bad. D20 has extremely abstracted the process of combat, while at the same time adding artificial distinction and complications to make it feel more "tactical". We can do better.

"The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses."

If you're going to bother having combat animations, they could at least be entertaining. Still, you have a point, RPGs have always been weak in this area, even the acknowleged classics. My largest gripe with current system is not so much any of the above D20 SNAFUs, but the inane AI for my pary members. If I'm going to have to baby-sit them any way, give me full control and a turn based system.

In the end I'll prolly play it however they implement thngs, I like the story, I like the game. I personaly can't get worked up that much over "twitchness" or "die rollness" because I play all games; FPS, RPG, Adventure, Wargames, RTS, Simulations etc. Just like I can live with Bethesda's Fallout Three (as long as it works), I can live with any other studio's KOTOR Three. Just don't make it MMO anything.

Emperor Devon
08-28-2005, 01:27 AM
First, the full or partial control of combat features, and having flashy moves, all of you are talking about, by design have no place in KOTOR or any RPG, while combat is important almost all RPG systems try to follow the following guidelines

I never said you should have full or partial control of the moves. I merely think that the combat animations aren't flashy enough, and could use some improvement.
When I said there should be combo moves, I guess I should've gone into more deatail about what I was thinking. If you kill a weak enemy with a critical hit (a level five enemy or under), and proceed onto another weak enemy, you should recieve some sort of bonus. I meant in no way there should be combo moves like there are in RotS.

1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are.

I agree completely.

3) Not everything can be solved with combat... more rewards can be had for avoiding a fight... while many a game is basically "go into the dungeon and kill the monsters" sometimes there are monsters to strong to kill so you must find another way.

Being a Sidious-like person, that sounds like a very good idea. What I was dissapointed at in KotOR AND TSL were how there were so few manipulative options. Although TSL actually includes what you were saying at one point, RH... Darth Sion is more than a match for your PC, so you must erode his will to kill him.

4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's.

That's true, but I considered the melee weapons a bit overused. Look at the two exchange thugs threatening the refugee with an axe and a staff.

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.

I agree with how everything should be focused on the roll of the dice, but I don't see what's wrong with stepping forward a bit when you make a successful attack. Like you said, it's only visual, and it would not actully interfere with the combat.

So RPG's are not places for really flashy duals between foes like you all seem to want, Yoda vs. Dooku in an RPG is unlikely.

Why not? The combat should stay the same, but I don't see what's wrong with flashier visuals.

RPG combat is not supposed to be a test of manual dexterity, it is supposed to be a test for the brain and a little luck of the die! ;)

Amen! I couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't want KT to turn in some "semi FPS" game..

What a terrible thought!

but it would be a loss of ressources ($).

Aw, who cares about that. LA is rolling in cash, and the president could stand to give up a couple of his solid gold swimming pools.

I seem to have stated myself incorrectly... I'm all for flashy visuals and my saber lock/stepping baack ideas, but the D20 system HAS TO stay!

stingerhs
08-28-2005, 01:44 AM
i say leave the combat system the way it is, but use a simple system to provide some kind of control over the animations. for example, if both combatants are the same level, the animations would be more of your near miss/minor hits/blow and parry type of animations. if they were unequal, the animations would reflect this by showing the lower level character taking more brutal hits depending on the difference of the levels between the characters. the animation system could also take into account a 'death blow', where the hit delivers more or equal the amount of damage that the character has hit points, and give you a animation where the character recieves a lethal blow of some kind.

it would add a bit to the gameplay visually without changing it fundalmentally. the biggest downside is that the game would require a much larger number of animations for the characters.

THE MANDALORE
08-28-2005, 02:08 AM
I have to agree with ED and VV.

I want different vehicles to ride across ENTIRE PLANETS, NOT JUST TWO OR THREE MAPS.

Also. I say expand a little on the D20 system but have a new system for the Unarmed fights (Vladimir-Vlada's idea of slamming someone into a plasteel cylinder sounded good).

New animations have to be included. I'm tired of seeing the same thing over and over again.

Stingerhs and RedHawk's ideas sound good too.

The most important thing for the KOTOR 3 should be "Real Time Physics" or something like that.

Hallucination
08-28-2005, 02:13 AM
The combat system is great, and it has to stay that way. But the thing that it needs is there have to be better visuals. Not like 3 more animations, but new animations for every form. I wanna see the aggression in ataru and the resilience in seruso. Thats all it needs.

Bob Lion54
08-28-2005, 02:36 AM
Definitely.
More animations would be great, especially to distinguish between the different sabre forms.

The basic combat should stay the same, but with new animations. I'd like different animations for flurry, advanced flurry, and master flurry. Same thing goes for power attack and critical strike. It would make them seem more special the better you get.

As far as the insta-kill sabres, realistically they should be. It just wouldn't make for a good game. It always bugged me that you could hit a guy right in the chest and he acts like he dosen't even feel it, but the game would quickley get boring if all your enemies where killed with one hit.

They could make the chance to hit alot lower, but when you do, they die or lose an arm or whatnot.That might work, but it could also make the game boring, as well. There wouldn't be a reason to upgrade your lightsabre, and thats a hugh draw for alot of people.

RedHawke
08-28-2005, 03:31 AM
Hehe I waited before posting: I was sure Redhawke would say it all! :p
:D

@ ED, I see what you were saying, but read below what I replied to Josh about the adding visuals part. :)

@ THE MANDALORE... I wouldn't expect any piloted vehicles or such, all that is far out of scope for the current KOTOR format. As they are features of Galaxies they likely would not put that into KOTOR III.

@ Josh, wow man, just WOW! You really seem to dislike D20...
(I personally hate it, hated it the minute they cancelled the D6 System, but I still adknowledge it because it is the backbone of the KOTOR series.)

RedHawke, I agree, but only so far.
There is nothing to agree or disagree with, as these are the rules of most all PnP RPG systems, you can debate it with me all you want but they won't change... look in the first chapter of 99% of all the PnP RPG systems Rule books and it will state some or most of these general guidelines somewhere.

1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are.
True, but the game is boring if it gets too easy (or too hard) or if there is a lack of interaction with the environment.
Read what I wrote again, it says nothing about the games difficulty, which is all up to the games DM or GM, in KOTOR's case Bioware, and with TSL Obsidian.

2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers.
True for D20, but not neccessarily true for all RPG systems. IMHO d20 is full of holes large enough to fly the Ebon Hawke through.
Harnmaster, Chaosium, Steve Jackson's Games, FASA's Games, D&D, AD&D, Gurps, Palladium, D20 the list goes on and on, how is this not necissarily true? Any game system where your PC has any sort of hit points, vitality points, life points, damage levels, etc. is playing by this guideline. Any others are still playing by this rule only modifing it to suit their particular RPG system, but it does still apply or else you would have a combat-less game as no one would risk fighting and losing their character to the systems all-powerful weapons.

This also leads to the PC's being the "larger than life hero's" as the PC's will face what others will not, if you had insta-kill weapons this would be a moot point anyway. Lastly, any GM or DM who uses any sort of insta-kill weapons you should stay away from anyway.

I believe your dislike of the D20 system is clouding your judgement a bit.

4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's.
Meh. Bladed weapons are fairly rare in the Canon (the film trilogies) they appear but never as front line weapons. I'm not saying they should dissapear, but the "rare" "cortosis weave" weapons ended up being anything but.
I suggest you re-read what I wrote again then... as I state why there are so many blade weapons in the KOTOR games.

There are a ton of bladed weapons in the D6 and D20 Star Wars RPG's as well, in the D6 system nearly half the character templates recieved a Vibroblade in their starting equipment, let alone the way D20 character classes starting equiment lists are done. This is where the blades come from in the computer game, so we are not likely to see it change.

Arguing the way the movies handle things in relation to a set of PnP RPG rules is really a moot point, as many if not all of the movie based RPG's deviate somewhere from the Movies they were based on to fit into the PnP RPG genre.

The over-emphasis of the current combat engine on melee fighting derives from the fact that KOTOR is based on a cosmetic coverup of NWN. Which itself is a D20 beast. This aspect of the game felt the least like Star Wars to me. Which is of course why I play with the Blaster Rebalance Mod. I for one would not mind seeing a KOTOR III that had cortosis weave weapons (regular and vibro) as actually rare. Then we could see Jedi and Sith Slicing through weapons like they should.
This is a critique of the D20 system, and really has nothing to do with what I was saying... While I also dislike the D20 system, I still give it it's due as an RPG system, as it is what we have to use for the KOTOR games, arguing D20's rules means nothing in the long run.

Also the destruction of an opponents weapon is not a popular feature in any RPG, and is a "House Rule" at the best, because not everyone likes it, many hate it with a passion.

Again, only in D20.
:eyeraise: But Josh... D20 is what we are talking here... that is the threads subject is Combat in KOTOR?

There ARE other systems. Go back and play Fallout, Jagged Alliance, Vampire, Wastland, etc. Go sit down with some friends and a copy of GURPS, FUZION, WEG Star Wars, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0., Shadowrun, WOD, or Traveller.
Again, other RPG systems are not really the subject here...

I have played all of those PnP games you listed, and they all share the attributes I listed above...

There are lots of ways to handle Combat and Damage. In my book Armor Class is the most idiotic idea I've ever seen. Armor stops Damage that has already struck you, It most certanly does not make you more difficult to strike. Go put on an Interceptor vest and an LBV with 30 punds of gear and ammo and play paintball; feel any more agile? Go put on some plate mail and then fight some SCA types, hard work no? Armor is there so that when you do get hit, it's not so bad. D20 has extremely abstracted the process of combat, while at the same time adding artificial distinction and complications to make it feel more "tactical". We can do better.
But Josh this was not about your favorite RPG systems, or realism, this was about D20 and it's handling of combat. Your straying from any semblance of an argument here. ;)

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.
If you're going to bother having combat animations, they could at least be entertaining.
Hence, they could give us some flashy new animations but after the second or so playthrough people would still complain because they would be very repetitive, just like the few new ones they gave us in TSL. ;)

Still, you have a point, RPGs have always been weak in this area, even the acknowleged classics.
Yup! Because I played many of the classics I'm actually glad to get the eye-candy we get in the KOTOR games! :D

My largest gripe with current system is not so much any of the above D20 SNAFUs, but the inane AI for my pary members. If I'm going to have to baby-sit them any way, give me full control and a turn based system.
Again I didn't post gripes, I was merely trying to educate those who had never played the D20 system, what KOTOR was based on, before.

But, I do agree the AI in the KOTOR series needs (needed) a overhaul. Try stoffe -mkb-'s Tweaked AI Mod it is much better! :)

I personaly can't get worked up that much over "twitchness" or "die rollness" because I play all games; FPS, RPG, Adventure, Wargames, RTS, Simulations etc.
You really couldn't tell that from your post! :D

DarkMe
08-28-2005, 05:53 AM
So Red you really make people think!:thmbup1:

Soogz
08-28-2005, 11:26 AM
Oh lord, please don't change the combat, I love it how it is, and all I can ask for is maybe better other moves rather than, crit strike, flurry, and power attack. But all in all keep the combat system.

Vladimir-Vlada
08-28-2005, 12:07 PM
I want different vehicles to ride across ENTIRE PLANETS, NOT JUST TWO OR THREE MAPS.
I completely agree. Gian terrains, many cities and sites of anicent times and military bases. Maybe exploring the space between systems with a starfighter, which you can either buy, sell, design or upgrade. Also that you can fly across the planet. When you enter the atmosphere, it just says: "Loading" for a few seconds (no blackouts), and *puff* you're in the atmosphere of the planet.

ROFL ROFL ROFL... Man, you people are taking this so seriously that that makes me sick. There is no need to worry to much about who knows what RPG is or not; this is about fun, that we participate in the story, not just standing around and telling them: "Attack" and they stand at one spot and do the job for us.

The point to discussing all this is because we all want to have fun. KOTOR gave us that great fun, but unless they realise that if they implant many good things from other genres, they could get a lot of money and everyone will celebrate it (too bad that money exists :( ).

We are complaining because we KNOW that they can do better, mixing a lot of combat systems and animations, they might make us content.

Now, to imply on some things that RedHawke said:

2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers.
If you are so convinced that RPG can only be in the style you are mentioning, then would you kindly explain me:
How come that in Dungeon Lords, you have:
1. Moves
2. Feats
3. Instant Kill attacks
4. Combo moves

But yet still there is levelling up, weapons do limited damage, you hit different body parts, you do different damage; but yet it's still an RPG.
How do you explain that? :confused:

Also even though you see very little, there is a lot going on in the background during combat, you get dodges and parry's in combat, you just don't have control over them...
That's the problem of why are we complaining damn'it!

This is how the D20 system works, and what the Defence rating means, it is a catch all number indicating how hard to hit you are, parts of it come from your armor (Physical Defense), parts come from your Dexterity (Dodge Defense), and parts come from your Shield/Items (Parry Defense). It is because of this that you get no individual Dodge and Parry chances in the game, it all is part of your Defense rating.
But it is better that there is implanted at least some chances that you manually try to avoid it, but if the enemy has a too big level of something you could fail, or maybe you might just avoid it. It might sound complicated but believe me it's more realistic that way.

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.
It doesn't mean that it has to be only that. In Dungeon Lords you can try to avoid them.

The same applies with Blasters, visually according to RPG rules you stand there in one spot and shoot and shoot until your opponent is dead, moving incurs penalties to your shots, the same would apply to any ranged weaponry, even missile launchers, they would be no different than grenades are now, remember the nicks and cuts RPG combat guideline.
Now that's where you are wrong. Ranged combat, no matter if it was in a RPG or FPS has to be a least a bit realistic. In Deus Ex even the last bullet in your pistol can mean a difference when trying to kill a completely healthy enemy. You run towards another cover but you turn to him and try to aim and shoot him in the head. Now if your skill with pistols is high enough the better are the chances that you'll hit him in the head, but if it isn't enough you'll have to be as accurate as possible. Now you can hit him in the head and if the pistol does enough damage, he's dead. But if you hit him in the torso, he'll just moan and try to shoot you too, and if he has a powerfull gun enough and if he's accurate enough and he has a large enough level, he might shoot you in the head, and you're dead. So ranged combat can be like in Deus Ex and still remain an RPG, no matter how you look at it.

RPG combat is not supposed to be a test of manual dexterity, it is supposed to be a test for the brain and a little luck of the die!
No, RedHawke... It is supposed to be all three things.

New animations have to be included. I'm tired of seeing the same thing over and over again.
Yeah!

The most important thing for the KOTOR 3 should be "Real Time Physics" or something like that.
Agreed.

Oh and another thing:
MORE ENEMIES!!!

stingerhs
08-28-2005, 07:31 PM
I completely agree. Gian terrains, many cities and sites of anicent times and military bases. Maybe exploring the space between systems with a starfighter, which you can either buy, sell, design or upgrade. Also that you can fly across the planet. When you enter the atmosphere, it just says: "Loading" for a few seconds (no blackouts), and *puff* you're in the atmosphere of the planet.and add make it so that we have to fly around and target other enemies a la Rogue Squadron?? not in Kotor. i'd be fine with it in a game like Rogue Squadron, but not Kotor. it just doesn't fit the context of the gameplay.ROFL ROFL ROFL... Man, you people are taking this so seriously that that makes me sick. There is no need to worry to much about who knows what RPG is or not; this is about fun, that we participate in the story, not just standing around and telling them: "Attack" and they stand at one spot and do the job for us.then you are obviously not familier with what the Kotor games have already established. if you want an action-based RPG set in the Star Wars universe, that's fine by me. however, the Kotor games thus far have not been action based, they've been much more of your traditional story-based RPG's. thus, Kotor 3 should stay within its genre of story-based gameplay. save the action-based Star Wars RPG for another series.The point to discussing all this is because we all want to have fun. KOTOR gave us that great fun, but unless they realise that if they implant many good things from other genres, they could get a lot of money and everyone will celebrate it (too bad that money exists :( ).your point is valid, but LA also stands to lose a lot of money by adding in all those new elements from other genres to a sequal in a series that has already established its own form of gameplay. people don't just buy sequals for the storyline, they also buy sequals because sequals are supposed to offer a very similar style of gameplay as established by its prequels.We are complaining because we KNOW that they can do better, mixing a lot of combat systems and animations, they might make us content.correction: changes to the combat might make you content, obviously not everyone in this forum, and especially not everyone in this discussion.If you are so convinced that RPG can only be in the style you are mentioning, then would you kindly explain me:
How come that in Dungeon Lords, you have:
1. Moves
2. Feats
3. Instant Kill attacks
4. Combo moves

But yet still there is levelling up, weapons do limited damage, you hit different body parts, you do different damage; but yet it's still an RPG.
How do you explain that? :confused:easy: Dungeon Lords is a different game from a different series of RPG's. Dungeon Lords has its own set of rules that have been established, and so has the Kotor series. just because Dungeon Lords has a different system that you might prefer doesn't mean that it has to be implemented in an entirely different series.That's the problem of why are we complaining damn'it!that problem can be addressed through changes in the animations. calling for a new combat system doesn't necessarily fix the problem unless you turn the game into a hack 'n slash.But it is better that there is implanted at least some chances that you manually try to avoid it, but if the enemy has a too big level of something you could fail, or maybe you might just avoid it. It might sound complicated but believe me it's more realistic that way.just because its realistic doesn't mean that it belongs in a combat system like Kotor's. your hand/eye coordination should not have anything to do with a combat system like Kotor. now, perhaps selecting a combat feat that adds to your defense would work well, but not one based on your hand/eye coordination.It doesn't mean that it has to be only that. In Dungeon Lords you can try to avoid them.for the last time: Kotor is not Dungeon Lords. quit trying to compare them.Now that's where you are wrong. Ranged combat, no matter if it was in a RPG or FPS has to be a least a bit realistic. In Deus Ex even the last bullet in your pistol can mean a difference when trying to kill a completely healthy enemy. You run towards another cover but you turn to him and try to aim and shoot him in the head. Now if your skill with pistols is high enough the better are the chances that you'll hit him in the head, but if it isn't enough you'll have to be as accurate as possible. Now you can hit him in the head and if the pistol does enough damage, he's dead. But if you hit him in the torso, he'll just moan and try to shoot you too, and if he has a powerfull gun enough and if he's accurate enough and he has a large enough level, he might shoot you in the head, and you're dead. So ranged combat can be like in Deus Ex and still remain an RPG, no matter how you look at it.let me slightly reword what i just stated above: Kotor is not Deus Ex. and not only that, Deus Ex is a FPS, not an RPG, so comparisons between the two are automatically invalid.No, RedHawke... It is supposed to be all three things.wrong. changing the core combat to be based on hand-eye coordination as well as what already exists is a very bad idea for reasons already mentioned.

dale03ster
08-28-2005, 10:43 PM
I have mixed feelings about it, on one hand i hope they update animations, and add a form menu during level up or something, describe different forms, not just lightsaber, but melee, and blasters two, be able to select these and apply them in battle. Thus giving you bonuses with having some eyecandy as well...

While on the other hand i wish you had much more control, however it is true that kotor is already bassed on one principal, however just seing the same old attack, sit and do nothing except duck every once and a while routine does get kinda old :P

THE MANDALORE
08-28-2005, 10:52 PM
Ok.

In addition to the new posts, I think that we should have "Counter Feats"

Counter feats would be made to counter certain attacks.
I.E.- A "Flurry Counter" would allow you to counter flurry attacks by enemies. A "Critical Strike Counter" would let you counter critical stike attacks, etc, etc.

Also, more maps need to be included, and the option of throwing people around.

lukeiamyourdad
08-29-2005, 12:29 AM
People should normally know what my sentiments about a combat system are, just looking at my post count is enough.

I play a lot of FPS and RTS games which, as you all know, require a certain amount of manual dexterity. Manual dexterity is a bitch. As much as I love it, I can't play an FPS for more then an hour and a half, two hours before my aim becomes crap (especially in MMOFPS).
On the other hand, I can play KotOR for countless hours non-stop (that's what I did when I first got K1 :D ), without being tired. Just a drink to keep me refreshed and I can stay 24 hours (never did that, but I'm sure I can) playing KotOR.
So for me, KotOR represents relaxation. I can just sit back and enjoy the game instead of stressing myself.

Before I go, I'm sick and tired of people referring to games where you can level up certain skills as RPGs. When you move using wasd and shoot with your mouse, it's a shooter NOT AN RPG FOR *****'S SAKE!

RedHawke
08-29-2005, 02:16 AM
Before I go, I'm sick and tired of people referring to games where you can level up certain skills as RPGs. When you move using wasd and shoot with your mouse, it's a shooter NOT AN RPG FOR *****'S SAKE!
Word! :D It seems many of the Playstation generation are the most confused about this RPG subject, and think that adrenaline pumping, button mashing action is the only way to be entertained... I find this to be a little sad. :(

@ Vlad, It is obvious from your, for lack of a better word, 'uneducated' statements that you have never played a Paper and Pencil RPG, the ones that you actually have to use real dice and your imagination to play ;)... if you had played one, you would have never posted most of your rebuttal statements.

There is no need to worry to much about who knows what RPG is or not; this is about fun,
Yes there is Vlad, while I agree it is about fun, you also need to know what an RPG actually is before suggesting combat features for it. Combat features better suited to other game genres.

that we participate in the story, not just standing around and telling them: "Attack" and they stand at one spot and do the job for us.
That is what RPG's are all about, and that is what combat will be in an RPG, if you do not like this fact then RPG's seem to not be your cup of tea.

To make the base combat be any different and more FPS-like removes the game as playable from a ton of it's audience. Like LIAYD stated many of us cannot play a FPS game for many hours straight, and RPG's are meant to be played for long hours using your mind, while being physically relaxing, so the combat system as it is today is quite suited to this fact.

The point to discussing all this is because we all want to have fun. KOTOR gave us that great fun, but unless they realise that if they implant many good things from other genres, they could get a lot of money and everyone will celebrate it (too bad that money exists :( ).
No Vlad, mixing game genres now would be the worst idea in the universe, the third KOTOR game must be the same style and gameplay as the previous two, or else it isn't KOTOR. RPG's are not FPS, or action games, nor should they ever be. You should never have to use manual dexterity to complete an RPG, all you need is your mind.

We are complaining because we KNOW that they can do better, mixing a lot of combat systems and animations, they might make us content.
I'm not complaining, no complaints in my posts, I'm rather content with KOTOR combat as-is. The only ones I see complaining seem to be the ones who want an RPG to be something it is not, by design.

Now, to imply on some things that RedHawke said:

If you are so convinced that RPG can only be in the style you are mentioning, then would you kindly explain me:
How come that in Dungeon Lords, you have:
1. Moves
2. Feats
3. Instant Kill attacks
4. Combo moves

But yet still there is levelling up, weapons do limited damage, you hit different body parts, you do different damage; but yet it's still an RPG.
How do you explain that? :confused:
Simple... First, that game is not based on a pure PnP RPG system like the game that is the subject of this thread (KOTOR), it likely has it's own electronic game RPG system devised for it, KOTOR is pure D20 so it is limited by those rules. Second, it really isn't a pure RPG as it mixes other game genre elements into it... so in the end there is no comparison to this topic. It is an invalid choice for your argument.

That's the problem of why are we complaining damn'it!
That's what I would like to know... it seems that people who have little idea about what RPG's are, want something new for KOTOR III... this will not happen as it would be recieved badly, and some of the features suggested here would compete with Galaxies, and that is something LA would never allow.

But it is better that there is implanted at least some chances that you manually try to avoid it, but if the enemy has a too big level of something you could fail, or maybe you might just avoid it. It might sound complicated but believe me it's more realistic that way.

It doesn't mean that it has to be only that. In Dungeon Lords you can try to avoid them.
Getting into fights to big for your party happen all the time, and dialogueing your way out of a fight is classic RPG gaming.

Now that's where you are wrong. Ranged combat, no matter if it was in a RPG or FPS has to be a least a bit realistic.
No my freind, it is you who are very wrong, you are trying to compare FPS combat with RPG combat, the FPS will always win visually because of the games base designs.

FPS, rely on your reflexes and button pushing ability to handle combat, the first on the button and the quickest with the mouse/pointer always wins.

RPG's are very different, combat is turn based, handled by die rolls, and was originally designed for table top play so combat will always be lackluster, becuse you are supposed to use your imagination during a fight.

Heck, Vlad you really need to be just glad you have the visuals you do in KOTOR, as it is the flashiest computer RPG I have seen... in most of the classics you walked in only 4 directions and combat was a monster or two appearing on the screen in front of you, and the actual combat was not even seen, just numbers on the bottom of the screen until either you or the monster was dead, if you lived you collected the treasure from the dead opponent, nothing was actually seen by the player, just a list of things gotten from the dead opponent. If you can, try to picture this in your head the next time you are playing KOTOR! ;)

In Deus Ex even the last bullet in your pistol can mean a difference when trying to kill a completely healthy enemy. (Edited for space) So ranged combat can be like in Deus Ex and still remain an RPG, no matter how you look at it.
Deus Ex is not an RPG so it is really useless to try to compare it to an RPG in any way shape or form! Totally usless for comparison! No matter how you look at it!

No, RedHawke... It is supposed to be all three things.
No Vlad, KOTOR is supposed to be an RPG, not what you stated, you seem to want to turn KOTOR into something more like a FPS, and this is not an RPG.

Most of the ideas are like yours are, wanting elements included in the game that have no place in the game... some of you are asking for things as bad as for example; making GTA: Vice City II and instead of using the GTA engine making it using the D20 rules and the KOTOR Engine... you would have proverbial rioting in the streets! People would be saying all sorts of negative things, and many would not buy it, your adding FPS elements to KOTOR III suggestions are actually very much akin to this example.

While I have no problem with a wishlist of things people want to see in KOTOR III, I originally posted what I did to attempt to educate people on what was likely possible in the current RPG format, not to say their ideas were junk or bad.

Personally, I really liked some of the ideas here, there need to be some new combat animations like ED was saying, most definately! there were new ones in TSL from K1, there will have to be some new ones in K3.

But combat will never be an impressive saber duel like we see in the movies, or massive moving fights like those in the FPS games, it will still be, at it's most basic level, stationary combat handled by dice rolls.

FiEND_138
08-29-2005, 02:26 AM
I really hope they don't change the combat system. It's supposed to be a RPG, if I want a FPS, I'll play Jedi Knight.
What ^^^ said. New animations would be welcomed though.

Vladimir-Vlada
08-29-2005, 08:41 AM
@ Vlad, It is obvious from your, for lack of a better word, 'uneducated' statements that you have never played a Paper and Pencil RPG, the ones that you actually have to use real dice and your imagination to play ... if you had played one, you would have never posted most of your rebuttal statements.
You know, you don't be polite to be honest. And to use a better term of the 'uneducated' title for me would be: IGNORANT JERK
Yes, I haven't played a Paper and Pencil RPG, but I sure do have an imagination. Now, you have to know, that Pencil and Paper RPGs aren't sold anywhere in our country, so I'm sorry for the bad things going on there and for not knowing how to play Pencil and Paper RPGs.

Yes there is Vlad, while I agree it is about fun, you also need to know what an RPG actually is before suggesting combat features for it. Combat features better suited to other game genres.
OK... I'm going to ask everyone a simple question:

AM I OR AM I NOT MAKING ANY RPG OR ANY GAME AT ALL?

*Silence... *

Exatcly! I'm not.

That is what RPG's are all about, and that is what combat will be in an RPG, if you do not like this fact then RPG's seem to not be your cup of tea.
Hey, if I wanted to play dice and use my imagination with Knights, Ladies and Mages I would have gone and bought a Paper and Pencil RPG box, but since there aren't any sold in our country. TOUGH S*IT! :embarassed:

To make the base combat be any different and more FPS-like removes the game as playable from a ton of it's audience. Like LIAYD stated many of us cannot play a FPS game for many hours straight, and RPG's are meant to be played for long hours using your mind, while being physically relaxing, so the combat system as it is today is quite suited to this fact.
So what's wrong in inserting the ability to participate in large battles... Where there are acctuel ARMIES?

No Vlad, mixing game genres now would be the worst idea in the universe, the third KOTOR game must be the same style and gameplay as the previous two, or else it isn't KOTOR. RPG's are not FPS, or action games, nor should they ever be. You should never have to use manual dexterity to complete an RPG, all you need is your mind.
Yeah... And some luck, that your Computer pulls out the bigger number. :rolleyes:

That's what I would like to know... it seems that people who have little idea about what RPG's are, want something new for KOTOR III...
Mandalore's sugestions are good also, don't mind me. But what about him?

this will not happen as it would be recieved badly, and some of the features suggested here would compete with Galaxies, and that is something LA would never allow.
But we're NOT LA, and we're NOT the game developers now are we?

Heck, Vlad you really need to be just glad you have the visuals you do in KOTOR, as it is the flashiest computer RPG I have seen... in most of the classics you walked in only 4 directions and combat was a monster or two appearing on the screen in front of you, and the actual combat was not even seen, just numbers on the bottom of the screen until either you or the monster was dead, if you lived you collected the treasure from the dead opponent, nothing was actually seen by the player, just a list of things gotten from the dead opponent. If you can, try to picture this in your head the next time you are playing KOTOR!
HEH! It's obivous that you've never played Neverwinter Nights or Morrowind. ;)

Most of the ideas are like yours are, wanting elements included in the game that have no place in the game... some of you are asking for things as bad as for example; making GTA: Vice City II and instead of using the GTA engine making it using the D20 rules and the KOTOR Engine... you would have proverbial rioting in the streets! People would be saying all sorts of negative things, and many would not buy it, your adding FPS elements to KOTOR III suggestions are actually very much akin to this example.
*Phrp...* What difference does it make what I say? No ones going to mind what I say anyway. They do what the hell they want, so why are you worried about what I say?

While I have no problem with a wishlist of things people want to see in KOTOR III, I originally posted what I did to attempt to educate people on what was likely possible in the current RPG format, not to say their ideas were junk or bad.
Isn't it obvious that mine are junk and they are bad. Most of the people know at least something about classic RPG, while I know NOTHING. So why are you wasting your time and energy on a$$holes like me?

The fact remains that we are all bratty children when it comes to games of any genre (true fact, proven theory), when they give us something to sweep us of our feet, we ask for more and more and more... And whenever someone expresses they're idea for improving the game, EVERYONE turns offensive to destroy the credibility of that individual, so that he/she won't ruin they're picture of an awsome RPG, FPS, RTS, etc... Some want to follow the rules which apply to what they have been given; some want to break those rules; some want to make new rules; and some want to change those rules.

In any case, it's an endless conflict.

I will only put up one more argument to confirm at least some of anyones claims. Depending on the opinion you have for the team which made this, will determen will you agree with this. Read the quote below...

Originally from the GameSpot Review of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
The combat and the dialogue are the two main elements of Knights of the Old Republic. Other than these activities, you'll find yourself running from place to place, but you'll have little interaction with the environment other than being able to open footlockers and other objects that contain goodies.

That's my last argument...

You can all continue discussing what should change in KOTOR. But since I am an IGNORANT JERK, I will withdraw, and if my sugestions extend further than: "New and more animations, vehicles and strategy"; you have the full right to ban me.

Dixie...

*Sits on a chair, crosses his arms and turns his head... *

Vladimir-Vlada
08-29-2005, 08:53 AM
Announcment:

Narrator : Debate won by RedHawkes Classic RPG Conglomerate...

*Everyone cheer, RedHawkes group: RedHawke, lukeiamyourdad and stingerhs high five each other and yell: "Who are the rulers?", the narrator also smiles... *

Narrator : Debate lost by Vladimir-Vlada's Progressive RPG/FPS/RTS Party...

*Everyone yells: "BOO!" and start throwing rocks at him, the narrator stares at him with hate... *

*Vladimir-Vlada approaches RedHawke, while all the Moderators and everyone else keeps booing him and throwing rocks at him... He doesn't pay attention to any of them and shakes hands with RedHawke... *

-I congratulate you on your victory RedHawke- said with a smile of respect.

*RedHawke removes his hand from Vladimir-Vlada's palm and looks at him with hate... *

-Beat it! You uneducated piece of S*IT!-
-Right... -

*Vladimir-Vlada leaves the room with his head bent down, while the others keep booing him and throwing rocks at him... *

tsunamipunk
08-29-2005, 09:10 AM
In KOTOR 3, should combat change?

No. This is a RPG. The combat should reflect this.

I would like to see an UNARMED combat system like the one in GTA:SA or Jade Empire. ONLY FOR UNARMED COMBAT.

Button mashing gets very repetitive very quickly. While GTA:SA is a rightously fun game, it's combat leaves much to be desired, mainly the unarmed combat.

For Lightsaber fights, I want a new system (D20 is getting a little old).

D20 is essential for the game to feel like KOTOR. A new graphics engine with new and improved combat animations would be real cool, but the combat itself should retain the d20 system.

jblue789
08-29-2005, 09:24 PM
Just so you know, I haven't read all the posts (at least, not in detail). Here's my simple little idea for combat:

As many others have said, keep the system, but make it more visually nice. It would be nice, if, for whenever you go into combat (or just some of the more important fights or something) it goes into a cinematic-type mode. I'm not talking about actual cinematics that you'll see in games, more like a movie-style camera moving. And the AI would react in ways so that the fights look like movie kinda fights. Of course, you'd still command what your characters do, and their fighting styles. Your characters and such would move in different ways, and, while moving, anyone that shoots or attacks them will obviously get a pretty big penalty to their attack.

Basically, it'll just be doing loads of stuff, guided by the D20 system and your commands, moving around, dodging, actually MOVING around in melee fights... and that stuff. If you don't understand anything I had just said, good for you. I'm not sure if I quite understand what I'm saying, but, it works in my head. :/

THE MANDALORE
08-29-2005, 11:42 PM
^^^^

Thats a good idea.

If you get into a fight into a cantina, the other patrons should react and panic.

jblue789
08-30-2005, 12:01 AM
@THE MANDALORE =O That's a nice idea too! It's kind of annoying how most NPCs don't react at all except sometimes standing there and crying. *imagines a riot against Republic soldiers in some random city... for some reason*

RedHawke
08-30-2005, 01:31 AM
Vlad, buddy if you think being called uneducated equates to "IGNORANT JERK" then you really have some growing up to do... :tsk:

Also your so called rebuttals, once again fly off into the realms of personal fantasy, your answers tell me you have read nothing I have said, and you say nothing about the actual subject. Other than now attempting to make me out as a bad guy here. "That big bad RedHawke is being a big meanie, and is trying to smash poor Vlad's views of the way KOTOR 3 should be." WTF??? :eyeraise:

While I see you conceeded, I think?

Narrator : Debate won by RedHawkes Classic RPG Conglomerate...

*Everyone cheer, RedHawkes group: RedHawke, lukeiamyourdad and stingerhs high five each other and yell: "Who are the rulers?", the narrator also smiles... *

Narrator : Debate lost by Vladimir-Vlada's Progressive RPG/FPS/RTS Party...

*Everyone yells: "BOO!" and start throwing rocks at him, the narrator stares at him with hate... *

*Vladimir-Vlada approaches RedHawke, while all the Moderators and everyone else keeps booing him and throwing rocks at him... He doesn't pay attention to any of them and shakes hands with RedHawke... *

-I congratulate you on your victory RedHawke- said with a smile of respect.

*RedHawke removes his hand from Vladimir-Vlada's palm and looks at him with hate... *

-Beat it! You uneducated piece of S*IT!-
-Right... -

*Vladimir-Vlada leaves the room with his head bent down, while the others keep booing him and throwing rocks at him... *
Either way you really shouldn't get so worked up about this, after all it is only a game we are talking about here, and people with views differing from yours are not automatically an enemy. Peace! :)

Commas
08-30-2005, 02:38 AM
is ED displaying... compasion?? perhaps i've entered a strange parellel dimension where black is down and up is smurf--!

no, no wait, there was a kitten in my eye... please, carry-on

anyway, yeah, new animations, same system. i liked ED's idea of the fights being more cinematic, saber locks, moving characters. since all the combat technically happens in the background and what we are actually watching has absolutely no effect on what is happening i don't see why we can't make it look a little nicer. especially since (hopefully) there will be a graphic engine upgrade.

ChAiNz.2da
08-30-2005, 06:29 AM
"That big bad RedHawke is being a big meanie..."
:lol: that should be your new custom title Red... you big bad poopy-head.. :xp: hehehe...

TheOssusKeeper
08-30-2005, 07:01 AM
sooo funnny... :animelol: i agree with chainz, shame on you RedHawke... :D jk...
Really, i'd like to see a more Jedi Academy style fight/combat system, where you can make your PC do the differ. types of stunts and saber styles... I really don't have much of an opinion about the rest of the game, as long as the story and gameplay stay about the same... I would like to see a more universal (updated) graphics engine also... actually, i'd like to see a little better story (more cohesive, better continuity) also...

RedHawke
08-30-2005, 07:46 AM
^^^^
*Picks up both ChAiNz and TOK and hurls them down a nearby main power shaft... hears their screams on the way down and sees the blue flash as the main reactor doesn't seem to agree with them...*

Ahh now I feel better! :D

is ED displaying... compasion??
:eyeraise: I believe so...

*Looks quickly to see if this ED has a goatee...*

ChAiNz.2da
08-30-2005, 08:05 AM
*Picks up both ChAiNz and TOK and hurls them down a nearby main power shaft... hears their screams on the way down and sees the blue flash as the main reactor doesn't seem to agree with them...*

Ahh now I feel better! LOL!

oh man, and I just did laundry... I'm never going to get these scorch marks out! :fist: hehehe...
----------------

Anywho... as far as the topic goes what was it again?.. oh yeah!
I'd personally like to keep the combat system the way it is.. I'm in it for the story, not button-mashing. Besides, my wrists can't handle it (damn carpel tunnels & minor arthritis) ... :rolleyes:

BUT, I can agree with the others about seeing new animations, or even 'specific' animations depending on what style of combat and/or Forms a player decides to use. Yeah, I can hear the devs now cursing my name, but tough.. :xp:

New animations not only would be super-sweet to have.. but it would satisfy (or at least curb) the 'heat' they took from including them with the Jedi Masters, but not the actual player...

Seems to me it might also act as an incentive to learn and perhaps even "use" the Forms included. My characters most often times now stay with "Jedi Support" and "Force Channel" all the time. New animations might make me sway to the new forms even if it were just for the "eyecandy" factor :D

dryserg
08-30-2005, 10:15 AM
First of all - Red - I did`nt say the combat system was bad, but
the visuals.
next: I love RPGs and I dont think that it shold be some press- botton combo -moves game -- no!!!!
on contrary I think that the game should stick to some background running engine - no problem with that.

what needs to change its the lightsaber combat system and here I explain myself:

We all know, what defines a player on RPG: its the stats, level, and items.

I think for a starwars game there must be a NEW REVOLUTionary concept
which is --- FIGHTING STYLE -
just think of it - different schools of lightsaber fighting where you learn
along as the game progesses, moves you like and chose to adopt along the way, an all new tree of progress in your lightsaber mastery,
including speed, grace, fury..
all that as a part of creating an RPG character
I think it must be in 2006 RPG game now its time for it,
not just items and numbers - but developing unique combat style.
finaly its time for all thease things to be interconnected:
hi dexterity = athletic shape character formed
hi strength = bulkier character
hi stealth = the character moves are more descrete.
I mean stats change the way the charcter looks - moves - fights - even walks!
(the way we seen in light dark side transition) for every stat actual influence
on the visuals in the game, come on guys!!!
its 2006!!! look at the technology the time of diablo and NWN1 is over!!!
and i didnt say i wanted an FPS no! I want all new looking best graphic engine based best combat engine based RPG!
and forgive for my english.

Vladimir-Vlada
08-30-2005, 02:40 PM
Vlad, buddy if you think being called uneducated equates to "IGNORANT JERK" then you really have some growing up to do...
What?! What did I do? I just called myself like that. If this situation occured in my country, I would have recieved this title: "Ignorant Jerk". And yes, such situations occured many times.

Also your so called rebuttals, once again fly off into the realms of personal fantasy, your answers tell me you have read nothing I have said, and you say nothing about the actual subject. Other than now attempting to make me out as a bad guy here. "That big bad RedHawke is being a big meanie, and is trying to smash poor Vlad's views of the way KOTOR 3 should be." WTF???
You think that I posted that to make you look like the bad guy? :confused: :Prplgh: :rofl: :rofl:

HE HE! :gigle1: You people really need to lighten up a little. You're just taking what I said too seriously. Why, if I posted this on the Forums in my country, the users would be LAUGHING their a$$es off for a week. Then they would post coments like: "Get a life..." or "You just made my day!" or maybe even "If I encounter a less known comedian in the street, I'll know that's you." You are really taking that too seriously.

So if I insulted you, I apologise... :(

Now back on topic:

As many others have said, keep the system, but make it more visually nice. It would be nice, if, for whenever you go into combat (or just some of the more important fights or something) it goes into a cinematic-type mode. I'm not talking about actual cinematics that you'll see in games, more like a movie-style camera moving. And the AI would react in ways so that the fights look like movie kinda fights. Of course, you'd still command what your characters do, and their fighting styles. Your characters and such would move in different ways, and, while moving, anyone that shoots or attacks them will obviously get a pretty big penalty to their attack.

Great idea.

Emperor Devon
08-30-2005, 02:52 PM
:eyeraise: I believe so...

*Looks quickly to see if this ED has a goatee...*

Displaying compassion? Not neccessarily. I've just noticed that when Vladimir loses debates he tends to go into self-inflicted bans. He has created many interesting threads in the past, and if he bans himself, he can't create more of them.

RedHawke, you're just a softie! You stated in one thread that you would choose the Light Side over the Dark Side in real life!

And no, I don't have a goatee. :rolleyes:

Say I'm displaying compassion one more time and I'll send a hundred Sith Marauders to burn your home to the ground. You will live out your days on a torure rack in my flagship.

JediWatchman
08-30-2005, 02:59 PM
All above should be controlled with both keyboard and mouse (Included jumpping).



Don't forget about XBOX users like me.

Commas
08-30-2005, 05:09 PM
Say I'm displaying compassion one more time and I'll send a hundred Sith Marauders to burn your home to the ground. You will live out your days on a torure rack in my flagship.

Now thats the ED we know and love :devburn:

Emperor Devon
08-30-2005, 05:56 PM
Ach, I can do better.

Say I'm displaying compassion one more time and you'll regret it. I'll send a hundred Sith Marauders to burn your home to the ground and whip you till there's no more flesh on your back.
You will be brought to my flagship and will live out your days in eternal agony and despair. My torures will make you beg for death. Some of them include sticking hair-thin needles through your fingernails and ripping them off. Some include holding you over a reactor by your hair. One of the worst includes spending twenty days in a room with supershadow.

Joetheeskimo
08-30-2005, 06:06 PM
Although it will most likely never happen, I actually wish you could control your own moves, like in JA. You know, using the mouse button and side to side movement, etc.

THE MANDALORE
08-30-2005, 07:00 PM
^^^^

To be precise, the controls in JA rely heavily on targeting. You have to target the enemy by yourself otherwise you don't hit them. Plus, in JA, the rifles have ammo, so you have to find more when your ammo is depleted. I wouldn't want that in KOTOR since it would get tiring if you have to aim by your self and find more ammo.

Commas
08-30-2005, 09:05 PM
one thing i'd kind of enjoy would be some new combat feats. i'm kind of bored of the three you get now (flurry, power attack and critical strike, not to mention their blaster related couterparts). Weapon Masters could really use some new combat feats, since a weapon master will rely more on his skills with a lightsaber than the force. (perhaps class specific? i know they already have some non combat feats like extra lightsaber mastery feats, but why not some more combat ones too, Jedi Masters get class specific force related feats, plus force powers). and more strategy needs to be involved in the use of combat feats. the way the game is now, the penalties involved in using a combat feat really dont make that much of a difference, since the character is so powerful. as a result, most people will choose one of the combat feats (usually flurry or critical strike) max it out and spam it the whole game. i know the game suggests using different feats against different types of enemies, but when you come right down to it, it doesnt make much of a difference what you use. In K3 it should make a difference.

i have one more idea regarding combat feats. now, i know what i'm about to say might get me lynched, but bear with me...

i think combos can work in kotor *ducks away from incoming projectiles*

ok, just hear me out! if you had a wider variety of combat feats to choose from, that each had different effects, and their usefulness varried depending on what kind of enemy you were fighting (or even when fighting multiple enemies at a time) instead of spamming critical strike over and over again, you could link certain feats in the que, say up to four feats, and when certain feats are linked in a certain order, it grants you a bonus, resulting in a more devastating move (with a cool animation to boot) you could even tie this into to saber forms. certain feats and combo moves could be more effective when using certain saber forms, for example juyo would use the most agressive feats with ease. you could develop your favorite forms more and become stronger in them. hell, you could even involve force powers (i'm sure lots of people already do this: stasis field and then lightsaber slash, or: slash with the saber, force push, force jump, saber slash.) but at the heart of it all, they would still be combat feats that were based on the D20 system (i.e. these combos would not work the same as, say mortal kombat, it would not be a combination of button presses, but a combination of feat choices)

let the stoning commence!

jblue789
08-30-2005, 09:14 PM
Sticking to my cinematic battle idea, what would be nice (as I'm sure several have mentioned) is more emphasis on the different saber styles. For instance, Form III (Resilience, don't remember the Japanese name) should you attack them, instead of just showing you stabbing at them after being parried once or twice, it could be that the opponent attacks you, you parry and counterattack. Of course, this would only work in melee fights :P For fighting a blaster-wielder at close range, well, just reflect a shot back into his face >XD.

Also, it might be nice to have "levels" of each form. Like maybe three stages, the first being like just that you know it, second being that you practice it, and the third is mastery of the form. Of course, you'd probably only be allowed to master a few forms. Which would come from constantly using that form for a certain amount of levels or damage. Of course, Form I would probably be maxed out quite easily. <(.-.)>

Soogz
08-30-2005, 10:10 PM
sooo funnny... :animelol: i agree with chainz, shame on you RedHawke... :D jk...
Really, i'd like to see a more Jedi Academy style fight/combat system, where you can make your PC do the differ. types of stunts and saber styles... I really don't have much of an opinion about the rest of the game, as long as the story and gameplay stay about the same... I would like to see a more universal (updated) graphics engine also... actually, i'd like to see a little better story (more cohesive, better continuity) also...



Then techinically your asking for an entirely different game. No offence. But, if there was a Jedi Academy fighting system, that would change the entire style of the RPG. Just saying anyway.

RedHawke
08-31-2005, 02:56 AM
What?! What did I do? I just called myself like that. If this situation occured in my country, I would have recieved this title: "Ignorant Jerk". And yes, such situations occured many times.
Well... not in my book. ;) Though we are all ignorant, just in different subjects! :)
So if I insulted you, I apologise... :(
Oh no! No, no, no, no... not at all, we were just having a debate that's all, from the way your last post read I thought you were the one who was a little insulted... But I do see what I wrote made you laugh, if so then my mission is complete! :D

Then techinically your asking for an entirely different game. No offence. But, if there was a Jedi Academy fighting system, that would change the entire style of the RPG. Just saying anyway.
Word! :D

TheOssusKeeper
08-31-2005, 04:58 AM
^^^^
*Picks up both ChAiNz and TOK and hurls them down a nearby main power shaft... hears their screams on the way down and sees the blue flash as the main reactor doesn't seem to agree with them...*


*cough... cough...* smoke inhalation is not good for you and the burnt smell, wow, that could last a day or two… it's a good thing there was a maintenance hatch down there... :)



Then techinically your asking for an entirely different game. No offence. But, if there was a Jedi Academy fighting system, that would change the entire style of the RPG. Just saying anyway.

no not really, they could come up with a way to have that type or something similar to that type of fighting/combat style and still have the auto select enemy and the infinite energy weapons/blasters... all i'm saying is it would be nice to be able to do more stunts and utilize more saber styles in combat then we are currently able to use... they can eben be one button actived stunts if you wish...

Vladimir-Vlada
09-02-2005, 10:12 AM
I think that I have an idea about the combat system (just hear me out, it's not FPS).

I recently saw a video footage on the upcoming Fable: The Lost Chapters, and I can say: The combat system ROCKS! Maybe the combat system can be from Fable, combined with the D20 system. It would work just fine with everybody.

DarthLinde
09-03-2005, 10:32 PM
Let's face it. The ai aiming sytem sucks. I was using HK-47 with improved sniper shot next to a rancor and I hit it 25% of the time! I think they need more manual control.

RedHawke
09-04-2005, 02:29 AM
Let's face it. The ai aiming sytem sucks. I was using HK-47 with improved sniper shot next to a rancor and I hit it 25% of the time!
There is no aiming system, it is all die rolls to hit vs the creatures defense rating, nothing more, nothing less.

I think they need more manual control.
FPS elements do not belong in an RPG...

DarthLinde
09-04-2005, 05:11 PM
There is no aiming system, it is all die rolls to hit vs the creatures defense rating, nothing more, nothing less.
Which is what i don't like about it.

lukeiamyourdad
09-04-2005, 06:25 PM
Then you're going to have to live with it. FPS controls are not meant to be in an RPG. Ever.

fresnosmokey02
09-04-2005, 06:39 PM
I don't want the combat system to changed at all (maybe the animations but not the system itself). I like the "fire and forget" combat system. If I wanted to concentrate on combat I would buy a FPS. RPG's are about the story and the quests, not about combat.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-04-2005, 07:57 PM
@ RedHawke, lukeiamyourdad:

About DarthLinde:

Give the guy a break, already. He doesn't want it changed, he wants it improved. And as far as I know, I was the one who wanted to change the combat system, so those statements should be adressed to me. :xp:

lukeiamyourdad
09-04-2005, 11:06 PM
He doesn't want it changed but he wants FPS controls? That's what manual control is, regarding ranged weapons.

DarthLinde
09-04-2005, 11:20 PM
Well, I guess i was wrong. Vladimar-vlada's right, I just don't want them looking like idiots. Maybe taking size in effect for the percentige of hitting?

lukeiamyourdad
09-04-2005, 11:24 PM
IMO, the Sniper shot feat should have been given an attack bonus instead of the minus to defense and the stunning abilities.
Anyway, what does size have to do with anything? Are you talking about the size of the gun or the size of the character?

DarthLinde
09-04-2005, 11:33 PM
Enemy your shooting

lukeiamyourdad
09-04-2005, 11:44 PM
Hmmm...that's not a bad idea. Like shooting a Wookiee or a rancor would be easier then shooting a Jawa.

RedHawke
09-05-2005, 03:35 AM
The targets size in the eyes of the D20 PnP RPG system are allready factored in, any possible modifiers for a creatures size should allready be in it's Defense Rating, this includes Rancors, Wookiees, and Jawas. Or any creature larger or smaller than human size.

Any possible aiming is represented in the RPG by the Sniper line of feats, anything else and you are shooting from the hip... so to speak, none of this is very accurate. You can indeed miss a huge target with a ranged weapon by firing wildly... to be accurate you need to aim, and in D20 this is represented by the Sniper Shot, and Critical Strike line of Feats. ;)

@ RedHawke, lukeiamyourdad:

About DarthLinde:

Give the guy a break, already.
Ok, and I take it I said something harsh to him? I don't see where I did?

Lord Pickle
09-06-2005, 06:11 AM
Red Hawke


Didn't know about the size moddifier being rolled into the defense rating, thanks for the info.

How about some other elements of PnP RPG's like deathblows. I know in KOTOR you got them if the enemy was level 4 or lower and incapcitated but why not have this if any character is incapacitated. If you're stuck in stasis and a dark jedi takes a cut at your head with a lightsaber then you should be killed, PC or not. As the manual for D&D says "a dagger in the eye is still a dagger in the eye."

Also maybe some bledding damage if you take a critical hit. Could provide another use for health, to stop the bledding.

Also have a situation where if like 50+ damage is taken from a single blow then a fortitude check must be made or the character dies. I'm pretty sure that's from D&D to.

Also there could be damage to specific parts of the body. As an example give a head attack a higher DC than just a normal attack but also make a hit do alot more damage. I don't know what specific numbers should be used but just the idea of location based damage.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-06-2005, 06:59 AM
Ok, and I take it I said something harsh to him? I don't see where I did?
You two really need to lighten up a little, seriously. I mean, every time a new guy comes here and sugests something to improve combat, with a TINCY WINCY little amount of FPS elements, you two go defensive like:

"Oh, no! He wants to change KOTOR to an FPS! TUTU-RUTU-TU! FPS elements don't belong in a RPG, we cannot allow you to change that. You have to understand that the RPG rules must be upholded, we're quite content and you should be too." :rolleyes: :rofl:

Geez, and whenever someone wants to insert something that ABSOLUTELY has NO EFFECT on RPG rules (vehicles for example), you to go: "Oh, no..." and so on.

So give some people a chance (you gave me, and you don't have to again), all right?

Now, on with the thread.

Also there could be damage to specific parts of the body. As an example give a head attack a higher DC than just a normal attack but also make a hit do alot more damage. I don't know what specific numbers should be used but just the idea of location based damage.
Best argument I heard to support deathblows, I agree.

RedHawke
09-06-2005, 07:06 AM
Lord Pickle, unfortunately the game does not integrate "house" or "optional" rules, the ones you listed are all optional rules, Deathblows, Called Shots, Blood loss from wounds, and Death From Massive Damage, are all optional in the PnP D20 RPG system and the computer version of the game does not make use of optional rules for various reasons. The biggest one is that the 'Vanilla' version of the game rules usually has the widest acceptance, so the game makers go with that.

You two really need to lighten up a little, seriously.

I mean, every time a new guy comes here and sugests something to improve combat, with a TINCY WINCY little amount of FPS elements, you two go defensive like:

"Oh, no! He wants to change KOTOR to an FPS! TUTU-RUTU-TU! FPS elements don't belong in a RPG, we cannot allow you to change that. You have to understand that the RPG rules must be upholded, we're quite content and you should be too." :rolleyes: :rofl:
:roleyess: You really need to lay off your caffiene intake Vlad, and learn to get your story straight too. I typed one line to a person and you tell me to give that person a break, then you type this?

Still sore at me for dashing your dreams with reality I see...

It is actually you who needs to lighten up a little... seriously! ;)

Geez, and whenever someone wants to insert something that ABSOLUTELY has NO EFFECT on RPG rules (vehicles for example), you to go: "Oh, no..." and so on.
Yup, because the Idea will never happen, it competes with Galaxies, no need to pick on me again for being realistic about such things.

So give some people a chance (you gave me, and you don't have to again), all right?
Nope, I posted one line Vlad, one line...

FPS elements do not belong in an RPG...
How is that not giving someone a chance? :dozey:

Jackel
09-06-2005, 07:12 AM
I think that I have an idea about the combat system (just hear me out, it's not FPS).

I recently saw a video footage on the upcoming Fable: The Lost Chapters, and I can say: The combat system ROCKS! Maybe the combat system can be from Fable, combined with the D20 system. It would work just fine with everybody.
So you want TFHS (third person hack and slash) rather then FPS? I have played Fable and its not a tactical game, you slash and hack your opponent till he/you dies, repeat with next enemy.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-06-2005, 07:27 AM
Yet again RedHawke, I was trying to make a joke. It obviously didn't quite get a result I expected (expected result: Everyone goes :rofl: ). :rolleyes:

Sorry, if I insulted you by the way.

All right, D20 rules with more animations or Fable combat system...

Choose carefully.

Prime
09-06-2005, 10:01 AM
Yet again RedHawke, I was trying to make a joke. It obviously didn't quite get a result I expected (expected result: Everyone goes :rofl: ). :rolleyes:Remember that joking and sarcasm do not always come across well in text form. I didn't think you were making a joke either.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-06-2005, 02:13 PM
^^^^

And yet again I do something wrong. Geez, I'll just stop posting on this thread.

Lord Pickle
09-06-2005, 02:43 PM
RedHawke

So if the dev made the "house" rules optional, like being able to choose massive damage or deathblows ect... from the gameplay screen, then it could
work eh. I think that those elements add more realism and interest to the game.Imagine using insanity on ten guys then just tearing through them.

Also fearful presence would be cool. Like if you just tore through said ten guy then the eleventh is either petrified or hual's ass away from you as fast as possible. It always seems odd that a low level character will stand and fight even through a gang of his buddies were just swiped out by my PC without him breaking a sweat.

Could also be neat if you are a Sith Lord and you spook people due to your presence. I mean if you were in the presence of a Sith Lord like Darth Sidious or Darth Nihilus you'd probably by scared half to death.

fresnosmokey02
09-06-2005, 03:31 PM
Also fearful presence would be cool. Like if you just tore through said ten guy then the eleventh is either petrified or hual's ass away from you as fast as possible. It always seems odd that a low level character will stand and fight even through a gang of his buddies were just swiped out by my PC without him breaking a sweat.

That sounds great to me. It would make it more real. I do beleive that more enemies should run from you if your character is awesome.

Could also be neat if you are a Sith Lord and you spook people due to your presence. I mean if you were in the presence of a Sith Lord like Darth Sidious or Darth Nihilus you'd probably by scared half to death.

Vader, yes, Sion, yes, Sidious, probably, Nihilus, not unless you are afraid of clowns.

Lord Pickle
09-06-2005, 05:46 PM
Also the effect of pain would be cool. Say if you use force lightning on a group of low level characters then afterwards each needs to make a will saving throw or be immobilized by pain. Maybe that would make lightning too powerful but it seems unlikely that a regular sith trooper could take a powerful blast of electrical energy, which would probably burn a significant protion of his body, without at least wincing in pain. Have the effect last for a couple of rounds since their body would be in shock. No pun intended. But a higher level character like Sion or Traya could ignore this effect since they are so powerful.

DarthLinde
09-06-2005, 07:56 PM
^^^^

And yet again I do something wrong. Geez, I'll just stop posting on this thread.
You don't need to stop posting. We all need to listen to each others ideas and try to put them together so we all agree. Wait, I'm supposed to be a sith lord! Uh, scratch that thought. Your anger will make you strong! :sithk:

Vladimir-Vlada
09-06-2005, 08:21 PM
"You don't need to stop posting. We all need to listen to each others ideas and try to put them together so we all agree."

GENIUS!

RedHawke
09-07-2005, 04:57 AM
And yet again I do something wrong. Geez, I'll just stop posting on this thread.
Can't you just feel the drama in Vlad's post? :D

RedHawke

So if the dev made the "house" rules optional, like being able to choose massive damage or deathblows ect... from the gameplay screen, then it could
work eh. I think that those elements add more realism and interest to the game.Imagine using insanity on ten guys then just tearing through them.
Unfortunately these optional "house" rules are not widely accepted by everyone, so to be neutral, the game companies go for a more "vanilla" version of the game system.

But I have never been one to shy away from adding options, if they could add in these optional PnP rules, possibly activated individually in the 'options' screen somewhere, or in an ini file, I'm sure it would be a big hit. :D

More PnP rules options in the KOTOR Series = Good :)
FPS or TPHAS features in the KOTOR Series = Bad :(

Prime
09-07-2005, 10:51 AM
More PnP rules options in the KOTOR Series = Good :)
FPS or TPHAS features in the KOTOR Series = Bad :(Amen, borther, amen.

RedHawke
09-17-2005, 03:10 AM
I totally AGREE with every thing you posted Vladimir-Vlada, I tired of hering these idiots crying about keeping that boring stupid D20 combat system. If the developers listen to them Knigths of the Old Republic will dieout, they should have change the combat system in Sith Lords.I want the fighting styles to be like in ROTS game with KOTOR style with more realism like I want to have the ability move around, duck, jump, strafe, crouch and aim in ranged combat. I also want to drive vehicles and pilot starfighters & also explore entire worlds and the galaxy. Lastly the the damage system from Deus Ex you mention will be a welcome addition that many Jedi games have been lacking I mean the realism is missing.
1. Then I might suggest that RPG games aren't your cup of tea... while I personally do not like the D20 system, it is now the established system for the KOTOR series, to change this would kill the series... it would be like making the next Jedi Academy game, a long series of First Person Shooter games, into a Real Time Strategy game. The fans of that series would not sit well with that decision. Why do you expect us to with KOTOR?

2. You can keep your "idiots" comments to your self, little children like labeling people who's opinions differ from their own, and name calling of this sort is a sign of this. :roleyess:

3. It is you people who want to ruin the KOTOR series with all the different game genre elements... not everyone has the manual button mashing dexterity of a cat, and the ability to endure long hours of FPS or Action styles of gameplay. RPG's are cerebral not a test of your reflexes.

No my freind, it is people who think like you do that want to ruin things.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-17-2005, 05:30 AM
^^^^^

Again with the "You'll ruin KOTOR if you add anything there" thing, now aren't you? :xp: :lol: :D
Oh, yeah. RedHawke, he was quoting me, refer that to me please. :D :lol:

2. You can keep your "idiots" comments to your self, little children like labeling people who's opinions differ from their own, and name calling of this sort is a sign of this.
Oh, don't be so hard on him. He just wants to make sugestions? If anyone should be called having "idiot" comments it should be me. :D

No my freind, it is people who think like you do that want to ruin things.
Oh, come on. It can't be that bad.

RedHawke
09-17-2005, 06:31 AM
Oh, don't be so hard on him. He just wants to make sugestions?
Vlad, windu6 wasn't kidding or playing around, that "idiots" comment he made was an unwarrented insult to all those who happen to think differently than him, pure and simple. I see nowhere in his post where he was kidding? Quite the contrary... while he has absolutely every right to his opinion, he has no right to call others who have differing views "idiots"

Vladimir-Vlada
09-17-2005, 06:36 AM
Quite the contrary... while he has absolutely every right to his opinion, he has no right to call others who have differing views "idiots"
He said that? :eyeraise: Hm :/ then I surely haven't read his post clearly. But since he said that that's bad.































And to think that I recieved that rant by just sugesting...

vanir
09-17-2005, 07:08 AM
Hmm, just like the rest of the entertainment industry, gaming has "genres." Big surprise?

The Jedi Knight series is a real time FPS.
The KotOR series is an RPG.
The Battlefront series is strategy gaming.

To help distinguish the various genres they're given each their own theme. JK is post OT. Battlefront is Prequel/OT and KotOR is of course Old Republic.

Firstly, if you like real time combat/FPS style what are you doing at the KotOR site trying to pawn every else's genres? You should be at the JK sites begging them to release a pre-Prequel version of their gaming system.

That way, we get to keep our RPG and you get to have your FPS.

On the combat, of course the d20 system can be enhanced with improved animations such as holstering weapons when not in use unless selected otherwise, limb severs/mild mutilation when 50% creature VP is done in one blow, Darth Maul style instant kills when 90% creature VP damage is done in one blow, and telekinetic powers to move or summon objects rather than only to knock down creatures, such as disarming a single opponent Darth Vader style.

Could also use some increased difficulty variations such as being disarmed to enter certain areas, but perhaps hiding a lightsabre in T3 (at last he'll have a reason for being selected as a companion), and yes, starship combat and general development is a huge area for the game and doesn't really need all that much game focus.
Turret control can be more optionally selectable, Dark Side characters may choose to lay waste to a city as they leave it, perhaps to reduce pursuing fighters if a hostile location (like Korriban or an enemy capitol vessel), the turret shell can be rearranged to be a starfighter cockpit and a whole adventuring dimension could be added.
Ship modification and berthing are important elements and could vary hostile starship encounters.

But if you want FPS style real time with keyboard/mouse control and 200 hotkeys, go play JK and leave KotOR to its fans. Someone at Obsidian or LA might overhear you and confuse you with one of us.

I mean you don't watch a drama and then start whingeing it doesn't have enough action. Drama is for the people who like drama. Ergo RPG etc.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-17-2005, 08:11 AM
Were you talking to me? :confused:

lukeiamyourdad
09-17-2005, 09:24 AM
You're not the center of attention all the bloody time. He was referring to windu6 obviously.

Vladimir-Vlada
09-17-2005, 01:58 PM
^^^^

I asked a dumb quetion. Geez! :xp:

RedHawke
09-18-2005, 03:11 AM
*Gives vanir a cookie!* :burg1:

Well said! :D

Char Ell
09-23-2005, 02:08 PM
Wow! A lot of good ideas on this thread. And there seems to be a lot of charged emotions in some of the posts here too... ;)
I like a lot of the ideas posted here. If I don't credit the appropriate poster just correct me later cuz I just spent 20 minutes reading all the posts and may not give appropriate credit as all the info is floatin around in my head.

1) KotOR is based on D20 and needs to continue with that combat system. - I agree with the camp that thinks the D20 system is a part of KotOR now. If LucasArts drops D20 in favor of another system I think they'll risk alienating KotOR's core group at the expense of satisfying what I perceive as a fringe group.

2) Improved Combat Animations and Combat Variations - I like ED's ideas as well as the others who have stated they want improved combat animations. I've seen my PC take a blaster shot to the chest on more than one occasion and I've always thought that a serious hit like that should have at the least temporarily incapacitated my character. So in short I don't think the animation always correlates with the dice roll result and would like to see that improved. I think some have stated in effect that the animations should be indicative of damage done and a character's health, e.g. if character has full hit points then takes a hit reducing hit points by 5% then the combat animation should be a cut to the arm or the leg. If character takes a serious reduction in hit points from an attack then the animation should be a serious hack to the character's more vital areas.
The other big thing that I think has already mentioned and I would like to strongly support is changing the animation such that when characters are just walking around they don't have a weapon in their hand all the time. When combat is initiated then the lightsabers are ignited, blasters are pulled out of their holsters, and the melee ensues. After combat is over everybody puts their weapons away because they don't need them anymore. No more running around with a weapon in hand all the time.

3) Improved/Additional Force Powers - Isn't this always a demand from game players? :D Although I do think that sometimes force powers get overdeveloped because everyone loves them so much. But I think a Force Pull should definitely be added to the game. A Force wielder should be able to pull a weapon out of the hands of a non-Force user during combat. I'm not sure if Force Pull would work during non-combat situations though as that becomes more FPS-like. But in conjunction with my next point I think the use of Force pull should require the user to have a free hand. If the user is using both hands then he doesn't have a free hand to pull the weapon to.

4) I would like to see new penalties/restrictions with using certain Force powers during combat.
Force Push change- Akin to the game (when not modded of course) restricting the use of certain Force powers if the character is wearing armor, I think the same should be done if the character doesn't have a free hand, e.g. using two weapons or two-handed weapon. I'm not usually one for comparing KotOR with the movies due to the large time gap between the two but to me there seems to be a physical connection with the use of certain powers like force push. IMO force push should be unavailable if the character doesn't have a free hand. The use of force push in the movies seems to always be indicated by a corresponding hand movement. Darth Maul uses force push with his free hand after Obi-Wan hacks his dual-bladed lightsaber in two thus rendering it a single bladed lightsaber. Obi-Wan and Anakin use force push with their free hand as well. So I would like to see Force Push and Force Whirlwind available only if the character has a free hand. I also think Force Storm should only be available if the character unequips his weapon since it's such a high level force power. Force Storm is such an effective power but I think that the user should be subject to a significant defensive penalty because it requires the use of both hands. While not a direct comparison, I regard Force Storm at the same level of force power that Yoda used in AotC. Yoda deactivates and holsters his lightsaber so he can use both hands in his use of the Force to stop that big pillar from falling on Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Force Lightning change - Other examples, not having to do with force push but I think are noteworthy are the use of Force Lightning by Darth Sidious as well as Count Dooku. Whenever Sidious or Dooku use Force Lightning they don't have a lightsaber in their hand. So I would like to see Force Lightning increased in its effectivess but its use would require the character to not have a weapon equipped and a defensive penalty applied. If the character targeted by the FL attack is able to dodge/make saving throw then he should be able to put the whammy on the character that originated the attack.

AnarKy
10-02-2005, 08:37 PM
I thing the Fable combat system was the best perhaps a little bit too simple but with some change it could be good, using the lighting strike in Fable was soo funny and also the option of first person shooting.