PDA

View Full Version : Hurricane Katrina


Darth Andrew
08-28-2005, 11:25 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/index.html

Quite frankly, this storm sounds bad. Very bad. Category 5 with 160+ mph winds. Keep those in the path of the hurricane in your thoughts and prayers over the next few days.

TK-8252
08-28-2005, 11:38 PM
Yup, and sadly New Orleans is below sea level. Such a historic city going to be washed away...

IG-64
08-28-2005, 11:41 PM
Yeah, i've been keeping up with this.

Was watching Fox News earlier, and shepard smith was on location. He went up to this guy and said, "Hey, what are you still doing here? I'm just curious. I'm with Fox news."
The guy just says, "It's none of your f***ing buisness."

On live television, no bleep.

There have also been reports that local meteorologists are saying "Get the hell out." and that it will be "Catastrophic".

TiE23
08-28-2005, 11:57 PM
Yeah, i've been keeping up with this.

Was watching Fox News earlier, and shepard smith was on location. He went up to this guy and said, "Hey, what are you still doing here? I'm just curious. I'm with Fox news."
The guy just says, "It's none of your f***ing buisness."

On live television, no bleep.

There have also been reports that local meteorologists are saying "Get the hell out." and that it will be "Catastrophic".
Damn, that doesn't sound good at all.
Baton down the hatches muther ****er! >__>

Good luck to all in Katrina's way.

Bob Lion54
08-29-2005, 12:44 AM
I live about 2 hours west of New Orleans.

We are going to get winds of about 30-35 mph with possible gust of up to 60. Plus, we'll get alot of rain.

Good thing about where I live, Its above sea level.

Man, New Orleans is having bad luck with Hurricans lately.

wassup
08-29-2005, 02:28 AM
This should seem obvious, but If you live in or around New Orleans, (1)GET THE HELL OUT or (2)SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. Nature is not worth fooling your life around with.

Pie™
08-29-2005, 10:07 AM
I chat with some people from the area... I hope they'll be allright... :(

Joetheeskimo
08-29-2005, 12:26 PM
I know several people who live right in the hurricane's path. I'm praying they'll get out of the way safely.

PoM
08-29-2005, 03:16 PM
Even though i don't know anyone living around there personally, i think it pretty much sucks...
I hope everyone over there gets out of the way.

Doomie
08-29-2005, 03:51 PM
I hope everyone gets out of the way fast enough...

Joetheeskimo
08-29-2005, 05:02 PM
Latest coverage from weather.com.

While not the worst case scenario for New Orleans, Katrina rocked the city Monday morning. A levee in New Orleans was been breached sending 3 to 8 feet of water into the 9th Ward area of the city. Wind gusts to 86 mph were reported at the Lake Front Airport before they stopped sending observations. Significant structural damage has been reported in New Orleans due to Katrina. The eyewall of the hurricane, where the strongest winds, largest surge and wave are, remained just east of the city. Areas east of New Orleans in Louisana and along the Mississippi coast were hit hardest. The Weather Channel's storm tracker Jim Cantore reported a storm surge of at least 27 feet in Gulfport, Mississippi as the eye of Katrina approached.

It's over, for the most part, but we haven't received a death toll yet. :(

Zappa_0
08-29-2005, 05:16 PM
Yea its gonna be a bad storm for all of the coast and states thats in its path.

shukrallah
08-29-2005, 09:45 PM
The hurricane will hit my area sometime tomorrow.

TiE23
08-30-2005, 01:04 AM
Atleast 55 dead in two states so far...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9063708/

This sucks. But hell, its life. Just hope that they can easily recover. :(

Joetheeskimo
08-30-2005, 01:06 AM
The hurricane will hit my area sometime tomorrow.

You're in my prayers then, although the hurricane will be much weakened by then.

Tyrion
08-30-2005, 03:47 PM
The levee broke, the US now has a Lake Orleans; 80% of the entire city is under water. There's going to be about 200,000 people without homes now. 200,000 people...man...that's horrible. I hope they don't try to pump out all the water out of Orleans; we tried to fight nature and we lost. To do it again would only be tempting fate.

Pie™
08-30-2005, 04:03 PM
Yeah, it's really sad... :(

shukrallah
08-30-2005, 04:12 PM
Hmm, sounds like I will only get storms now, and a bit of wind, nothing to bad, it still hasn't hit here.... (not that I want it to...) but yeah, I think its slowing down, so that must mean its weakening.

Mike Windu
08-30-2005, 04:15 PM
New Orleans will be drained.

My sympathies to all who were killed/hurt. :(

Bob Lion54
08-30-2005, 05:22 PM
I just heard on CNN that they only have 2 confirmed deaths in New Orleans. With the number of people that stayed, that number should rise. The fact they only have 2 confirmed deaths shows just how bad it is. They can't even get to certain areas to seach. Horrible. :(

Mississippi has hundreds confirmed dead. The bad thing is they can't even get the bodies out because of the water. This is just horrible.

I fell horrible for the people that lost everything. Theres an area in New Orleans called the 9th Ward. Basically, its the low income housing area. The really bad thing is the 9th Ward was one of the hardest hit areas. I fell really sorry for these people. Many people from the area are now homeless. Actually, much of the housing in there is government funded. They really lost everthing. :(

Nalukai
08-30-2005, 08:19 PM
well i was down living in that area of ground zero 2 months ago and just recently moved 100 miles north.. so far it is going to take NO 2 weeks to pump the water out of the entire city and another 2 MONTHS to restore power to the city.. mississippi where i am from was hit just as bad if not worse, and out of the 40+ ppl i tried to call in those areas yesterday only 1 has replied,,, the rest are stuck in the stone age with no power phone gas water or food. the one i did happen to get aholt of in the hattiesburg region told me that the city was pounded bad and she was stuck inside her house due to the multiple trees that uprooted and blocked all her passageways out of the house and the powerlines zapping her vehicle... i tried to call them all back again today still a system busy error with cell phones and regular house phones... so there is no attempting to touch those in this area for at least a few more days....

STTCT
08-30-2005, 11:33 PM
None of the pumps are working :( and they have to evacuate the Super Dome of like over 30,000+ people.

Tyrion
08-30-2005, 11:45 PM
I heard they freed the local prisoners, who in return for such kindness are holding people hostage.

Ain't humanity great?

Nalukai
08-31-2005, 10:45 AM
the water is constantly rising in N.O. also- they have called for the entire town to be evacuated now and that it will take a month now to get the water out. They are trying to patch the 500 foot hole in the levee in lake Ponchartrain but it is not working... they are also saying if the water rises a few more feet then it will take out the cities water system also. as of right now we have a 6th great lake. But just as bad we in Mississippi got hit just as bad if not worse. They are actually marking houses with red paint from where they find bodies and going on to the next one to see if there are survivors anywhere to be rescued. 80% of my state is without power right now- luckily i am in the 20% that does.. a very sad week indeed for my fellow citizens here and in louisiana.

Crow_Nest
08-31-2005, 11:31 AM
Just saw one guy on TV yesterday, he and his kids survived the hurrican but he lost his wife. Poor guy :(

Mike Windu
08-31-2005, 04:05 PM
Martial Law has been declared, and everyone is to evacuate the area.


:(

Feanaro
08-31-2005, 05:57 PM
Looting has become a huge problem. And i could see doing it for food and water, but there are entire stores completely empty.

El Sitherino
08-31-2005, 06:32 PM
Taking food and water from stores is not looting, that's survival. Plus it'd just go to waste being left in the stores.

Also it alarms me how many people never heard of pre-emptive measures. How many weeks in advance had we heard that New Orleans would go under? atleast 1.

IG-64
08-31-2005, 07:56 PM
Taking food and water from stores is not looting, that's survival. Plus it'd just go to waste being left in the stores.

People are starting to go around with guns and are robbing people.

Feanaro
08-31-2005, 08:21 PM
Taking food and water from stores is not looting, that's survival. Plus it'd just go to waste being left in the stores.
I didn't mean food and water, but who really needs 50lb. dumbells after a hurricane. They took everything!

El Sitherino
08-31-2005, 08:31 PM
People are starting to go around with guns and are robbing people.
I know, just making clarification on the whole "what is looting, what is not".

I think taking anything but food and water is kinda stupid. Save for maybe a machete, never know when you might need a machete.

Tyrion
08-31-2005, 08:52 PM
I know, just making clarification on the whole "what is looting, what is not".

I think taking anything but food and water is kinda stupid. Save for maybe a machete, never know when you might need a machete.

Axes, batteries, radios, ect. are fine. As well as anything that wouldn't last in extreme water conditions.

IG-64
08-31-2005, 09:19 PM
I didn't mean food and water, but who really needs 50lb. dumbells after a hurricane. They took everything!



Everybody has to be perfectly in shape in those situations, don't you ever watch survival movies? :P

wassup
08-31-2005, 09:25 PM
It is sad, but true, to say that desperate times like these are what seperate the truly good people from the rest.

TK-8252
08-31-2005, 09:26 PM
I think taking anything but food and water is kinda stupid. Save for maybe a machete, never know when you might need a machete.

I mean, what's with the guys carrying out big-screen TV's? Don't they know there's no where to plug them in? Not to mention when they're forced to evacuate, you can't take it with you...

A lot of people are takings shoes and clothes, which I guess is alright, because there's no place to clean yours and you can't wear clothes covered in sewage and god knows what else is in the water.

Feanaro
08-31-2005, 10:16 PM
Everybody has to be perfectly in shape in those situations, don't you ever watch survival movies? :P
Stupid me. I need to go rent me some of those movies. If any of them watched McGiver they could make a boat out of those dumbells.

shukrallah
08-31-2005, 10:35 PM
Barly hit me, now I feel bad after watching TV.

Hmmm, yeah, they were robbing gun stores, and peoples house. I saw a dude taking a TV out someones house. People were walking out of other homes with stuff too, most likley stealing. Its just sad that they are making the problem worse for others. A TV isn't going to help you survive, nor is a gun.

IG-64
08-31-2005, 11:31 PM
You know who would actually be really helpfull right now?

Captain Planet.

...

No, seriously, remember in the theme song? "Looting and polluting is not the way!"
And he could move all the water and fix the levees and everything.

Man, I suddenly relalised that Captain Planet does have some use afterall. o_o

Lady Jedi
08-31-2005, 11:38 PM
Oh my. That's really devastating. I wish all the best for everyone involved; anyone hurt, and all those who've lost friends, family, and other loved ones. :(

Darth Andrew
08-31-2005, 11:43 PM
What's worse, since New Orleans is below sea level, they put the those who have died in mausoleums. And when the hurricane came and destroyed them ....

It's just... sad. :(

Lady Jedi
08-31-2005, 11:47 PM
That's horrible. I remember hearing about something similar happening in Galveston, Texas a long time ago.

CapNColostomy
09-01-2005, 02:53 AM
Unfortunately, nearly all of my favorite bands hail from NOLA. So, naturally I hope all of those guys are alright. Not that I wish any ill on the rest of the residents of that fine hedonistic metropolis, but said residents have failed at entertaining me for years and years (not counting of course the drunken-boobs-for-beads women during Mardi Gras). So, the bands rank a little higher on my scale of importance.

El Sitherino
09-01-2005, 10:32 AM
I dunno, I just think anyone that stays in a dangerous area after having fair warning doesn't really deserve much sympathy. If any at all.

ET Warrior
09-01-2005, 10:37 AM
Well, some people weren't really capable of evacuating, sick / elderly, the homeless or poor.

And the logistics of evacuating over 1million people in a week?

El Sitherino
09-01-2005, 10:53 AM
Well, some people weren't really capable of evacuating, sick / elderly, the homeless or poor.

Those people I feel sorry for. But most of the people you see floating dead in the water are the same idiots that told reporters "didn't have gas money" or some such bs.

And the logistics of evacuating over 1million people in a week?
People have done it before, the evacuation of some japanese cities after the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I Just don't find "we didn't have gas money" to be that good of an excuse.

You can walk, walk. Hell most of the people saying they had no gas money are the people that really should walk.

ET Warrior
09-01-2005, 11:02 AM
I agree, anyone who complained about not having gas money is an idiot. You can GET gas money, you only need like, 10 gallons, so you'd need like 50 bucks. And walking is obviously a viable alternative as well, it's a hurricane, get the hell out.

Nalukai
09-01-2005, 11:50 AM
it takes approximately 10 hours to evacuate N.O. during a hurricane, and it takes at least 3 just to get over the I-10 bridge there and it is only a few miles long long...many of times i have seen highway 59 deadlocked for miles in both directions with cars moving maybe 5 mph. for the most part a class 5 hurricane usually depresses into a 3 before it reaches land... these ppl have been through these kind of storms for decades. From me living in this area I can say most did have a chance to evacuate in time because the streets are so twisted the entire town was in gridlock and only the outskirts were able to reach safety. The inner city are so poor most of them were trapped and could do nothing but ride it out. Everyone knew it was a serious thing.. but if you have ever been to N.O. you would know that 60 percent of the city is a slum and just did not have the money to properly prepare themselves for something of this magnitude. At least once they get Lake Orleans to drain ppl might be able to return to some of there homes... There is no returning to homes on the MS gulf coast becuase it is not there anymore, we took the hardest hit because we are above sea level, N.O. pretty much just got flooded by the Lake Pontchartrain. Honestly I think it is pretty selfish to call ppl stupid or morons because it would be an entire different story and words coming out if you were one of the ones caught in it- and dont say it wouldnt happen because that is exactly what these ppl thought also.

El Sitherino
09-01-2005, 12:31 PM
Honestly I think it is pretty selfish to call ppl stupid or morons because it would be an entire different story and words coming out if you were one of the ones caught in it
You think wrong.

Remind me exactly how being poor means you can't walk to a safe location?


And I have been to New Orleans. Many, many times.

swphreak
09-01-2005, 06:09 PM
I'm with Sith on this one, they were warned. And with the rioting and chaos going on now, the mayor needs to declare martial law or something similar. There are rescue workers being fired upon, cops being shot. If I was in charge, I'd tell the law enforcement officers and national guard to fire at will.

Mike Windu
09-01-2005, 06:49 PM
Martial Law has been declared



@ phreakeh :p

Kurgan
09-01-2005, 11:53 PM
Martial Law is a big mistake. The military isn't trained to be law enforcement, they're trained to kill and destroy things. I can see that making the situation worse.

Edit: As I suspected, "Martial Law" has not been declared, despite reporting, at least this source is claiming. I would think this would be a big precedent. When during an emergency has the Constitution been suspended and all authority given to the military? Check this link out: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46073


Now of course during a state of emergency, apparently the authorites can pretty much shred people's freedoms and rights, but there is still a distinction.

What's more important, stopping looting or saving lives? Honestly, while it sucks for the people who's businesses are ruined by looting, I'll take the lives saved over merchandise.

If the people got what they needed, they wouldn't try to loot. It's not like we're talking about people grabbing a nice plasma screen TV during the crisis.

As for the beatings and rapes, that's inexcusable. Fighting over supplies I could understand, but rapes? There's no reason to rape somebody, ever, much less in this crisis. Is somebody frustrated, taking their anger out on somebody else? Now there's where you can have your thugs intervene. But shooting somebody for stealing some toothpaste? No.

This whole thing makes me sick...

On another note, I think we should get somebody posting on JediKnight.net with some valid donation links. Throwing money at the situation alone won't solve things, but it's a start. I would do the update but I don't have access and Aristotle is going to be gone for a week so he can't set it up for me. :(

swphreak
09-02-2005, 12:13 AM
What's more important, stopping looting or saving lives? Honestly, while it sucks for the people who's businesses are ruined by looting, I'll take the lives saved over merchandise.

If the people got what they needed, they wouldn't try to loot. It's not like we're talking about people grabbing a nice plasma screen TV during the crisis.

Actually, that is what's happening. Gun stores have even been looted. Also, it's kinda hard to rescue people when they're shooting at you. Choppers with supplies are being fired upon, forcing them to either A) Fly away without delivering supplies, or B) just toss them to the ground.

I think they should declare martial law and send in the troops. They can fight the looters, rampaging criminals, ect. while national guardsmen and the police resume rescue operations.

TK-8252
09-02-2005, 12:14 AM
It's not just looting; there's people getting raped, murdered, shot, carjacked, and there's gangs roaming the streets with stolen AK-47's. It's way worse than some punks carrying out TV's.

swphreak
09-02-2005, 12:23 AM
Linkage (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46056)

And who better to fight in "Downtown Baghdad" than the army?

coupes.
09-02-2005, 12:31 AM
Sniper fire halts hospital evacuation (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html?section=cnn_topstories)

Wow, people are ****ing idiots.

swphreak
09-02-2005, 12:34 AM
Officers told CNN they lacked manpower and steady communications to properly do their jobs -- and that they needed help to prevent the widespread looting and violence now prevalent in the city.

How many days are they going to wait before bringing in serious help? I'm glad I don't have any relatives or friends near there.

And I was waiting for the god card (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46076) to be played.

Darth Andrew
09-02-2005, 12:36 AM
I salute all those who will rebuild and reorganize the demolished cities, because they will have one hell of a job to do.





And I swear to never swear again.

TK-8252
09-02-2005, 12:40 AM
And I was waiting for the god card (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46076) to be played.

What the hell... these people are worse than islamic extremists.

They've said on the news that some terrorist groups were rejoicing saying "Katrina has joined us in the jihad against America" or whatever, but for christian groups to find good in this? Why don't they just join the snipers shooting at hospitals?

Rogue15
09-02-2005, 12:47 AM
MPs are the law enforcement in the army. the people that are shooting rescuers need to be put out of their misery.

Mike Windu
09-02-2005, 02:12 AM
urgh. My fault guys; I heard it like 3 times on the news >_>

But yeah, martial law needs to be declared now. Cause it's just insane down there.

El Sitherino
09-02-2005, 02:15 AM
Screw that, drop down bats and televise that junk.

wassup
09-02-2005, 02:29 AM
What the hell... these people are worse than islamic extremists.

They've said on the news that some terrorist groups were rejoicing saying "Katrina has joined us in the jihad against America" or whatever, but for christian groups to find good in this? Why don't they just join the snipers shooting at hospitals?

It is quite sad how in all the light of this tragedy, some people still see it as a way to profit from and further their own agendas. Instead of providing aid, Repent America is using this timely opportunity to draw attention to the so-called "sins" of NO just as Americans' short attention spans are drawn to this area.

I quote Repent America director Michael Marcavage:
"We must help and pray for those ravaged by this disaster, but let us not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long," Marcavage said.
Yet, for reasons unknown, his website provides no instructions or means on how a reader may do their part to help (linking to www.redcross.org would have been a start).

What should be done right now is to draw attention and support to the real problem at hand, such as all the hunger, lawlessness, and fear currently being faced by the people of New Orleans and the surrounding areas. What should be spread is a message of hope, not condemnation. Personal judgements should be saved for after the crisis is over, however, everybody, including Marcavage, knows that by then such opinions won't be as relevant, which is why organizations such as Repent America are seizing the moment.

P.S.: If you would like to help please follow my link in my sig. Thanks.

Nalukai
09-02-2005, 03:08 AM
hey

to end my last post here at lucas forums....

how bout instead of you knobs b1tching about what should have been done blah blah blah you donate some money instead to a cause to help your fellow brethren out... i happen to donate today over 1000 dollars in food and money.

because that is honestly what all you do anyway... minus the donate part..

ban me now please because i dont want to see anymore BS thread spam hating on the ppl that are from most of yours own soil.

some company excluded---- the ones referred to are the ones that know i am talking about them

have a good time... V. (sigh.)

Kurgan
09-02-2005, 03:36 AM
How do you know who's donated and who hasn't?

You're judging people based on assumptions that we're all talk and no action. I strongly encourage people to donate, but whether or not you've given 1,000$ or more has no bearing on the validity of your opinions.

Can we share opinions? Thanks. ;)


If you're that angry and leaving, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe your example will encourage others to do better?

---------

As to Martial Law, I only see National Guardsmen, turning their guns on American citizens and killing them. Will that solve the problem? Doubtful, considering it hasn't done jack to solve problems anywhere else (consider the success stories in Iraq).

In American history the army has been used against its own citizens, but I'll leave the effectiveness or morality of such actions to you.

Last I heard, there were 28,000 troops sent to deal with the problem. What more do the people demanding Martial-Law want?

While it's just a movie, The Siege puts it well:

General William Devereaux: The Army is a broad sword, not a scalpel. Trust me, senator - you do not want the Army in an American city.

Nalukai
09-02-2005, 04:00 AM
You're judging people based on assumptions [/i]

Yeah and that is exactly what some others here are doing which is why im pissed and bailing out of these stale forums. It's the same old BS over and over... and i wont stand for bashing on a topic of the ppl that i was neighbors to die (some of my friends btw) while ppl refer to them as stupid or idiots or morons... say what you want but that sh1t makes the Karma on you.(and no not you Kurgan) so like I said have fun...

oh and ps... how the f---k are you gonna walk to safety when it was over a 100+ mile path? Opinions are good and all but use some common sense considering i am always reminded here of it....... later.......

TK-8252
09-02-2005, 04:00 AM
As to Martial Law, I only see National Guardsmen, turning their guns on American citizens and killing them. Will that solve the problem? Doubtful, considering it hasn't done jack to solve problems anywhere else (consider the success stories in Iraq).

American citizens? You mean these thugs who shoot up hospitals, hijack ambulances, turn over rescue boats, and rape and murder anyone they want? Well whatever, I find it hard to believe that you'd value the lives of these "citizens" more than that of the poor and sick people who will die soon because certain "citizens" think it's more important to shoot at helicopters.

Dagobahn Eagle
09-02-2005, 05:22 AM
American citizens? You mean these thugs who shoot up hospitals, hijack ambulances, turn over rescue boats, and rape and murder anyone they want? Well whatever, I find it hard to believe that you'd value the lives of these "citizens" more than that of the poor and sick people who will die soon because certain "citizens" think it's more important to shoot at helicopters.
Thank you.

Send in more SWAT teams and national guardsmen and MPs and whatever the Heck else you can get your hands on. Why on Earth would they "turn their guns on honest American citizens"? You make them sound like the rogue bandits in NRA's conspiracy theories, waiting for a chance to take over cities or the whole nation when the world's eyes turn away.

Ban me now please because i dont want to see anymore BS thread spam hating on the ppl that are from most of yours own soil.
I think the people calling those that could not or did not want to leave "stupid" or "morons" need to re-consider their opinions a little, yes.

Look, gas money isn't "just 50 bucks". To a lot of people, it's "50 bucks", without the "just" part. Heck, there are people out there that don't make that much in a whole month.

Yes, they could maybe have moved. Maybe they underestimated the threat or loved their homes too much or whatever. Or maybe they were just plain dumb. However, you don't know the story of John Doe-who-stayed more than I do, so quit judging them, please.

I remember hearing about something similar happening in Galveston, Texas a long time ago.
It did. Which is why they build their houses on poles now, several metres over ground level.

oh and ps... how the f---k are you gonna walk to safety when it was over a 100+ mile path? Opinions are good and all but use some common sense considering i am always reminded here of it....... later.......
For real. Don't these morons living in New Orleans realize that practicing for a 100+ mile walk is necessary for survival. Honestly, sometimes I wonder about people. They make a 50+ mile walk sound like this exhausting thing that takes days and more supplies than you can carry...:rolleyes:

Kurgan
09-02-2005, 07:15 AM
American citizens? You mean these thugs who shoot up hospitals, hijack ambulances, turn over rescue boats, and rape and murder anyone they want? Well whatever, I find it hard to believe that you'd value the lives of these "citizens" more than that of the poor and sick people who will die soon because certain "citizens" think it's more important to shoot at helicopters.

Whether they loot or commit crimes, they are American Citizens. What, are you going to start calling them "illegal combatants"? Perhaps we should send them to Abu Gharib?

Trust me when I say this, if you turn loose the military into a "combat zone" many more people than the guilty get killed. That's why I'm not calling for blood like some people here.

Should we kill them all and let God sort them out? Because that's what's going to happen using the gung-ho "send in the army, let them solve the problem" mentality being displayed by people here.

Though I guess reactions like this shouldn't be surprising. Lots of people are very angry. It's like after 9/11 happened, people were calling for us to attack this or that nation, or even to use nuclear weapons. Obviously somebody in New Orleans being shot at is going to want to shoot back, I understand that. But there's a world of difference between that and declaring Martial Law, with massed troops shooting looters on sight.

The fact is, these people are desperate, and many of the ones doing the crimes and idiotic stupid things we're talking about are included in the poor and sick people we're discussing. Now I don't see how raping people helps anyone, but I can see why some people would want to steal food or hijack ambulances. It's despicable people would only think of themselves, but in desperate situations, people don't think rationally.

I can understand the desire of people to say "let's fight fire with fire" etc. but at what cost? For every "bad person" you kill, you're going to kill a few more "good people." Depending on the military tactics used (I don't trust them, considering their track record, remember many of them are "Fresh from Iraq").

Fresh from Iraq, that sounds comforting. Fresh from a military dictatorship (defacto without a Constitution by the elected officials) where the military has been known to torture and kill civilians, innocent or guilty (and yes, commit rapes too!). Support our troops or not, I wouldn't trust such people to protect my life. I'll try my best not to "look like a looter" (is that like not "looking like a terrorist"?) but that won't save me from a bomb or a case of mistaken identity or a soldier thought he saw something that he didn't, etc.

Again, this isn't such a black or white issue of either we do nothing or we send in the troops to fire on crowds. But, don't you see how these things get started? I remember back in Clinton was in office various conservative radio talk show hosts were saying how there was going to be a state of emergency and US troops would be set upon their fellow Americans. It didn't happen, but now it is happening. It's damn scary. And yet we have people who aren't satisfied, they want more. And this isn't even a terrorist action, it's a natural disaster!

I don't pretend to know how to handle the situation if I were governor or general or president, but what's scarier, rioters and hungry mobs or armed troops out for blood?

Gangs of New York was another movie, but it was based on real events. People I've talked to who saw the movie when it came out scoffed that anything like that could happen today. Well... here we are.

Isn't anybody else disturbed by this?

Kurgan
09-02-2005, 07:24 AM
Thank you.

Send in more SWAT teams and national guardsmen and MPs and whatever the Heck else you can get your hands on. Why on Earth would they "turn their guns on honest American citizens"? You make them sound like the rogue bandits in NRA's conspiracy theories, waiting for a chance to take over cities or the whole nation when the world's eyes turn away.

Who are these people shooting at helicopters? Are they gang members? Are they crazy people? Are they anti-government gun nuts? Are they terrorists?

I agree that the above statement about "citizens" sounded incredibly paranoic. What a perfect excuse, whoever I don't like is a valid target. Do we routinely line up shoplifters for the firing squad? Do we hang rapists in the city square? No, but that's what goes on in a military dictatorship, and that's what Martial Law is, a military dictatorship. The Army is judge, jury and executioner, accountable to noone.

In the various articles it sounds like you can feel some of the sense of what's going on. People were quoted as saying the "buses were taunting us" and "they don't care about helping people in their own country." Etc. It sounds like some people think they are being toyed with or ignored. Perhaps we're not getting the whole picture. All the news reports say that the relief workers and military personal are doing everything right, it's the mobs and individuals that aren't doing what they're supposed to. So that makes me wonder... what are they not telling us?

I don't think the Army has a magical way of figuring out who the "bad people" are vs. the "good people." So you're going to have a lot of "innocent" deaths when you start targetting civilians. Is that a cell phone in your hand or a gun? Better shoot first to make sure. These guys are hyped up for combat, that's what troops do. You're just upping the body count with that kind of situation by default. And if it's in the interest of protecting relief workers that sounds fine, if it's in the interest of guarding liquor stores from "looters"? Is that worth shedding blood over?


I think the people calling those that could not or did not want to leave "stupid" or "morons" need to re-consider their opinions a little, yes.


I think the notion being played out here is that people are thinking, sitting comfortably in their living rooms, "well if I were in that situation I'd have done the rational thing" etc. Easy to say, and it's hard to understand. Stupid behavior isn't excusable, but its a fact that in disaster situations people don't see the big picture, they don't think rationally. In fires people rush to the exit and block it, so they all die. In crowded concerts people stampede and crush other people to death. In numerous examples throughout history one soldier or policeman fires his gun by accident and then everyone starts firing. In battles soldiers shoot their own troops because they can't see what's going on.

It's easy to say "that wouldn't be me" and "those people who died must have been idiots" (blame the Darwin Awards on popularizing that mentality on the internet), but I'm sure it's a different story in the actual thick of things.

I don't know if people really understood the big picture. Leaving your home behind perhaps forever is a hard thing for many people to do. They probably were thinking (much like us) "well I'm smart, I don't need to worry." Granted their behavior looks incredibly stupid and suicidal now.

Most people are unprepared for such a disaster as this, and expecting large numbers of people to be prepared for it is a pipe dream. The fact is that things like this on this scale are rather rare, and its hard to get people to practice for something like this when its so rare, they can't justify the time or cost. People's memories get hazy. It's sad, but true. It's much easier to judge after the fact from a safe distance though. It's a hard lesson to learn, but do you think when this happens again in 25-50 years people will fare any better?

Hermie
09-02-2005, 07:58 AM
I just want to add a note. Our teacher told us about when her and her family was in Thailand when the tsunami struck, and it seemed like that in those situations, there are no Americans and Mexicans, no black and white, no looters and non-looters. There are only people, and survival.

Cmdr. Cracken
09-02-2005, 08:54 AM
It seems to me the policvy makers in D.C are trying. trying damned hard to get help to the area, but i think that the many troops needed, i would estimate in my personal opinion, are in Iraq and afghanistan, and we would need something in the realm of about 20,000-50,000 to DEFINITVLY secure New Orleans. possibly more. More Forces from the US.Navy are needed, to off load people at the coast and get people out, and the U.S. Navy Seals need to go in and help with recovery efforts, along with teh US. Army Air Corps divisions and the US. Air Force to start lifting people out. Army Helicopters need to start air patrols, with clear shoot-to-kill orders against looters. basically, we need alot of military support, IN ADDITION to the US. National Guard and Air Force.

Please, START YELLING AT YOUR STATE OFFICIALS TO SEND GUARD TROOPS TO NEW ORLEANS. granted, it may feel like zerging the area, but this is what needs to be done to help secure the city, and get everyone out to safety.

Also, for the love of GOD don't buy gas. I was thinking 3/gal by christmas. Thanks to Katrina, we have 3/gallon now across the nation.

AGain, petition your lawmakers to have the president dump the ENTIRE reserve we have in storage. yes, all of it. the entire thing. will it screw us in the future? possibly, but this thing that came through is gonna hurt us harder in the long run anyway.

You can help, even if you can't donate, by getting in touch with your lawmakers and DEMANDING action such as this. I've already sent several e-mails to the Govener of New York to send such kind of aid, and both my Senators have heard from me. I urge you to all do the same.

swphreak
09-02-2005, 10:07 AM
Just FYI, I have donated some money. As for "American Citizens," I still don't care. There is no reason people should be rioting and creating chaos. I'm thinking a lot of bad people are stirring up trouble and spreading fear. The army needs to be sent in search the entire city for troublemakers. They can either arrest the troublemakers, or if they're shooting back, take them out. There is no excuse for this. It'sa disgrace.

ET Warrior
09-02-2005, 10:24 AM
I strongly resent the implication that people who called those who stayed behind stupid are just sitting around in our chairs, doing nothign to help. I'm really impressed that you gave over 1,000 dollars nalukai, you have impressed us all so much, you must be superior to all of us.
However, people give what they can. I have to pay for college, and I have to pay rent, and I have to buy my food. I can't afford to give 1,000 dollars. So whenever I'm out and I see a red-cross donation place I will give whatever I have on me. I'll probably donate 50 bucks soon.

And if it makes me sound heartless, whatever. But I cannot generate much sympathy for the people who chose to say in the path of a hurricane. There were options even outside of walking the long distance. They could've got on a bus, taken a train, ridden a bicycle. But some people just figured they'd be okay. As I said, if they were too poor to evacuate, or too sick, or truly unable I feel amazingly terrible for those people. I cannot imagine the hell they are in right now. But choosing to stay in it's path...heh. I would expect nobody to feel bad for me if I climbed to the top of the tallest tree around me during a lightning storm and was hit by lightning and killed.

swphreak
09-02-2005, 11:36 AM
Another article. (http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/09/02/213220.html)

Face it, it's a warzone down there. I'd love to see one of you try and use your wishywashy peace crap and solve the situation. You'd most likely get shot. Cops are handing in their badges, and telling people they're on their own. I didn't see any Thais rampaging and killing each other.

Prime
09-02-2005, 11:48 AM
Looks like America and the western world are just one step away from anarchy after all...

You better not be holding a TV when the troops come around the corner...

And up until this point Bush has declined the offers of assistance from Canada. I guess everything is under control...

So true...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/02/ray_nagin20050902.html

Cmdr. Cracken
09-02-2005, 01:16 PM
ETWarrior:
I have sympathy for these folks, because if you look at the pictures that are coming out of New Orleans, in the majority of these pictures what do you see? The disenfrachised, the poor, the ones who can barely afford the fare for public transportation. I ask you how can you expect someone of such low economic status to be able, on thier own, under thier own financal backing, get out of ANYWHERE, and be able to survive in any other part of the country?

what would you do if you were that low on the economic ladder? I'd have to do what they are, sit and wait it out, hope it's not that bad, and ride out and pray that something or SOMEONE comes along to save me.

We are SO fortunate to be sitting in our homes, our libraries, our computer labs, sitting on these expensive and very nice machines in cool places with food, water, and shelter. these people who are now stuck in a city reduced to the status of a third world nation barely had shelter and food to begin with. and now, they have nothing.

It is a question though, why weren't these people forced to leave the day before the storm hit, to get out as many as possible? where was the federal response then? where and why didn't the federal government, knowing full well the power of the storm coming, get more of these poor and elderly and children out why they could, before New Orleans was hit by natures equivalent of a large nuclear weapon?

Why didn't our president get off his ass at his luxury texas ranch, and start mobilizing the relief efforts, hell, start coordinating an evacuation, the MINUTE THEY KNEW ABOUT THE STORM!?

I bet his oil company is sucking in the profits now... 3/gallon.... >.<

toms
09-02-2005, 01:31 PM
From the new coverage in the UK its pretty amazing how devastating this has been. We all saw bits of news about it probably hitting NO - but since you guys get hurricanes all the time and are such a powerful, high-tech nation I kind of assumed it would do a bit of damage and then move on. Never thought it would cause so much devastation to such an old city.
According to a lot of the reports over here it seems to be beig very badly managed... a lot of our reporters have compared the scenes to those after the Tsunami... not hwat you'd expect from the US.
Also seems like there isn't much of a restoration plan, not sure why there is no national guard presence and so little law enforcement (well, except those cops that are off looting) after several days... All the people they have interviewed seem very PO'ed by the lack of aid they've seen.
I'd have thought that since they had several days warning they would have had several thousand aid workers and national guard standing ready just outside the strike zone ready to move in immediately. Though of course a lot of the NG are off abroad right now. Bush seems to be taking a lot of heat.

Interestingly about 4 years ago the US Disasters Committee said the 3 biggest threats to the US were:
1- Terrorist strike on New York
2 - Hurricane on New Orleans
3 - Earthquake in California.
Looks like after the first one they started concentrating so much on the war on terror they forgot the other two... Still, two down at least...

Cmdr. Cracken
09-02-2005, 01:48 PM
http://audio.cbsnews.com/2005/09/02/audio813006.mp3

they Mayor of New Orleans. Not happy. REALLY not happy. and personally, i don't really blame him.

ET Warrior
09-02-2005, 03:03 PM
I ask you how can you expect someone of such low economic status to be able, on thier own, under thier own financal backing, get out of ANYWHERE, and be able to survive in any other part of the country?I give up, it seems apparent to me that you don't actually care to read the words that I'm typing, so I'm not even going to take the time to quote the part where I said I DO have sympathy for people who couldn't afford to get out / not in the proper medical condition to get out.

El Sitherino
09-02-2005, 04:35 PM
I strongly resent the implication that people who called those who stayed behind stupid are just sitting around in our chairs, doing nothign to help.
Indeed, especially since I'm going to be spending the next week helping take care of the injured with my mother at the hospital where they're shipping in those they couldn't evac from the hospital in time. Not to mention the food crap I'm doing. I help those that deserve my help. Some ass that is capable of leaving but won't does not deserve my help or sympathy.

I think 50 bucks is good amount worth saving your life. And people have walked farther in the past. Don't give me bull**** about "it's impossible".

Enjoy your BS-emo, Nalukai.

El Sitherino
09-02-2005, 06:39 PM
Anyway, it seems the racism crap is still going on. It alarms me that people don't get basic math. 70% of New Orleans is black, a lot of people are poor, it's only natural that most of your poor are going to be black when they're the majority in the city. It's not a matter of racism, rather biggotry based on class. The poor are always the last to be helped, if they're helped at all.

Also it alarms me how people fail to realize that when resources of the local and state government are tapped, it's the federal governments job to send in aid. Especially in a crisis of this level. This is very much a matter of security now that mobs have formed and innocent people are being attacked, constantly.

shukrallah
09-02-2005, 09:06 PM
Sith, I don't think everyone knew it would be *this* bad.

Besides, the military can shoot at people now.

What idiots! People are so stupid-- "Yeah man, Im going to steal a TV! Too bad there is nowhere to plug it in, and my car is flooded with water!"

Then some people want to get in gang fights for nothing. Then others want to shoot at people who are trying to help them... even dumber. Whats the point? If I lost everything I wouldn't point a gun at a man trying to offer me a sanitation kit and bottle of water. I mean, I can understand a gun for defense, but... why shoot the cops... especially when they aren't after anyone!

Besides, no matter what it is, you shouldn't be stealing-- whether food or a tv. The Red Cross and other organizations are donating a lot of food. And also, all of that food is moldy or contaminated by now anyways. With water several feet high and temperatures of 95+ F, nothing can keep for long. I would say in a day or two most of the bread and milk would be bad. Canned goods need to be cooked... which when your city is flooded its kinda tough to do. Nothing else would keep well, or would be wet/contaminated. Its not worth stealing...

Lady Jedi
09-02-2005, 09:43 PM
I think that it's been proven over and over in the past: Humans are stupid in times of crisis. Now, I'm not saying that it applies to all; merely the bastards who think that this is a great time to get a few rapes in while everyone is bunking in the SuperDome. Or the idiots who are stealing TVs.

Anyway, I think it's absolutely great that Houston has taken in so many people. I've got a lot of good memories of the Astrodome, and I'm glad it's being used so well in such a hard time. Who ever brainstormed that one, good job. :)

El Sitherino
09-02-2005, 10:03 PM
Sith, I don't think everyone knew it would be *this* bad.
The government certainly knew the levees wouldn't hold. Especially when it struck Mississipi. The planning was very poor. And a lot of people were stupid to stay when they had the means to get out.

shukrallah
09-02-2005, 10:19 PM
Your right, if you can leave, you should. But... I just heard on the news like hundreds of thousands of people couldn't leave - Mainly poor people without cars.

Regaurdless, now people who did leave are dying... im watching TV right now and they are showing bodies in the streets who did evacuate, but just... can't survive. You certainly are right when you say the planning sucked, because they should have relocated the people who couldn't leave.

They have turned into a third world country, people are dying in the streets. There is no food, or clean water. On the news there are bodies that are censored, and I even saw a dead person in a wheel chair with a blanket over them.

toms
09-02-2005, 10:42 PM
heck, they knew it was one of the top 3 threats to the USA...
weird, scary and interesting stuff i found while looking around the webs:
However one senator from Louisiana, David Vitter, has predicted the death toll could climb above 10,000 in Louisiana alone.

Army engineers have said it will take anything from 36 to 80 days to pump the flood waters from the low-lying city.

Guardsmen who arrived in New Orleans on Friday were also said to be shocked at what they found - even though many of them have served in Iraq.

The situation was made worse by a lack of trust between the mainly poor, African-American population left behind in New Orleans and the predominately white police force, our correspondent adds.

Up to 60,000 people could still be stranded in the city, the US coastguard says.

Looting has swept the city. There have also been outbreaks of shootings and carjackings and reports of rapes.

The federal emergency agency was trying to work "under conditions of urban warfare", director Michael Brown said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210264.stm

Snipers lurk everywhere, firing on unsuspecting police officers from an apartment complex across from the putrid refugee centre at the city's convention centre, taking aim at medical rescue workers trying to airlift premature babies from a downtown hospital and shooting at helicopters trying to evacuate people from the Superdome.

There were reports of women being raped at the convention centre and unconfirmed reports of rapes inside the Superdome, where thousands of people had taken shelter.

A corpse lay covered on the dirt in front of the convention centre while scores of heavily armed police engaged in a prolonged shootout with suspects in an apartment complex.

Photos of two men being beaten by police officers were taken from Toronto Star photographer Lucas Oleniuk by officers who threatened to beat him, then stopped a reporter's unmarked car, pointing a shotgun at the windshield until the driver lifted his hands above the steering wheel.

"People get frustrated and they just start taking potshots at the police," said one officer at the scene. More puzzling is why people would shoot at those trying to help.

"Hospitals are trying to evacuate," said Coast Guard Lt.-Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan, spokesperson at the city emergency operations centre. "At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in people are shooting at them. There are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, 'You better come get my family.'"
Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has asked for 40,000 troops and says they are on their way and convoys of hundreds of relief workers streamed down Interstate 10 toward New Orleans yesterday.

But where did they go? They were nowhere to be seen in downtown New Orleans.
http://www.metronews.ca/news_feature_detail.asp?id=10592

More than 44 foreign governments and international organisations have offered aid to help with the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210264.stm

The phrase "mandatory evacuation" was played over and over again, along with the videos of overflowing traffic on the highways as well as lines at the gas pumps. Along the way singular examples of the panicked egress were picked by news producers looking for that little extra oomph factor. I recall one aside of a businessman who paid $3,000 for first-class "one-way" tickets to Dallas, Texas, for his family because he didn't think he could get "very far" driving since the "gas situation" was chancy.

Along with these stories of evacuation we were also informed—almost as an afterthought—that there were over 100,000 people "without cars or transportation in New Orleans, who could not leave." We learned that the New Orleans Superdome would become "the shelter of last resort" for these people.

As the news cameras panned over the crowds of predominately minority, elderly, and disabled people waiting, to get into the Superdome, I flashed to the header of a news story I had read in my local paper that morning: "the haves leaving New Orleans—the have-nots remain." How typical, how true, them that has, gets; them that wants, gets left behind, apologies to Billie Holiday.
Wednesday Yahoo News carried two photos with captions from New Orleans. The first photo was from AFP Getty Images and bylined Chris Grayson; it showed a young man and woman, both white with the caption: "Two residents wade through chest deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store." The second photo was bylined Associated Press with no photographer credit, its caption read: "A young black man walked through chest deep flood waters after looting a grocery store." So, the white folks "found" their food, the black guy "looted" his.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/090205Pitz/090205pitz.html

THE daughter of a Scots holidaymaker caught up in the devastation of Hurricane Katrina told last night how her mother had been forced to join in the looting to find food.

Teresa Cherrie, 42, a nurse, and her partner, John Drysdale, 41, a lorry driver, from Renfrew, are marooned in New Orleans. The couple are desperately awaiting rescue on the roof of an apartment block with ten American refugees in the French quarter of Baton Rouge, while hiding from armed gangs.

Her daughter, Nicola Cherrie, 21, a dental nurse, said: "She phoned this morning at half past two just to let us know they were okay. She was awfully upset and she just said she'd never been so starving in her whole life, she'd never seen so many guns, she'd never been so scared.

"She said they had a tin of ravioli and a packet of biscuits for their dinner tonight. They've had to loot supermarkets for food and scavenge what they can.

"It was meant to be a dream holiday but it's turned into a nightmare," she said.
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1884012005

shukrallah
09-02-2005, 11:01 PM
Wednesday Yahoo News carried two photos with captions from New Orleans. The first photo was from AFP Getty Images and bylined Chris Grayson; it showed a young man and woman, both white with the caption: "Two residents wade through chest deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store." The second photo was bylined Associated Press with no photographer credit, its caption read: "A young black man walked through chest deep flood waters after looting a grocery store." So, the white folks "found" their food, the black guy "looted" his.

The media is trying to create problems. Now theres the big discussion as to whether or not the whole "rescue mission" and slow response was because most of the people in need are black. While its possible thats why it has taken so long to get relief (if you call this relief) I thik the media is just using this to create controversy. They are just as bad as the looters.

El Sitherino
09-03-2005, 12:02 AM
Actually it's not the media, but organizations that are talking about this. Media is merely giving them airtime. Everyone is allowed their say, even if what they say is the most retarded **** to ever infect our airwaves. Even the "Repent America" people got their bit of airtime.


Also, it appears Castro is offering aid. I'm hoping it's accepted as we need all the assistance we can get. If we wish to keep death tolls from rising much more, that is.

shukrallah
09-03-2005, 10:14 AM
The media doesn't have to air it, but they think it will give them ratings or whatever.

The US better accept it the help, I don't see why they wouldn't.

So, we have Japan, Germany, and Cuba helping, right?

www.katrina.com

coupes.
09-03-2005, 10:06 PM
Well, Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.968022,-90.046692&z=6&t=e&hl=en) has been updated with pics from the damage caused by hurricane Katrina.

Superdome (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.951430,-90.081099&spn=0.004107,0.007369&t=e&hl=en)
Breachin the levee (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&ll=29.972818,-90.024118&spn=0.004106,0.007369&t=e&hl=en)
Highway 610 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&ll=29.972818,-90.024118&spn=0.004106,0.007369&t=e&hl=en)
Harbour (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&ll=29.972818,-90.024118&spn=0.004106,0.007369&t=e&hl=en)
Lakefront Airport (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.040418,-90.027637&spn=0.008700,0.014738&t=e&hl=en)

SkinWalker
09-05-2005, 01:01 PM
Sith, I don't think everyone knew it would be *this* bad.

SCIAM - The Drowning of New Orleans (http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=00060286-CB58-1315-8B5883414B7F0000) From this Original Article (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A//www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm%3FITEMIDCHAR%3DD58B96E1-60BC-4C0F-BCE2-8C9B8A05275%26methodnameCHAR%3D%26interfacenameCHA R%3Dbrowse.cfm%26sequencenameCHAR%3DitemP&ei=Dn8bQ8KdIpa8YM3tpa0L).

Meet The Press 9/4/05 - Transcript (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/)

Meet the Press 9/4/05 - Podcast (http://podcast.msnbc.com/audio/podcast/pd_mtp-09-04-2005-081727.mp3)


National Geographic (http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/) 2004.

ChAiNz.2da
09-13-2005, 12:29 PM
Bush takes responsibility for U.S. failures after Katrina

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/13/katrina.washington/index.html

wow... * goes outside to watch the pigs fly and check the temperature of Hell*

I wonder what 'spin' they'll place on it come Thursday night. I'll definitely have to tune in (or at least record it)...

toms
09-14-2005, 07:44 AM
Well, on the one hand it's the first time i've EVER heard him take responsibility for ANYTHING.

But on the other hand his ratings are so tanked that it was about the only thing he could do to try and regain some popularity. And I'm always a bit doubtful of the value of "taking responsibility" for something when doing so has absolutely no effect on you whatsoever.

It used to be that politicians would "take responsibility" for failures, then resign. These days they "take responsibility" then carry on as if nothing had happened. Its like saying "i take responsibility" is supposed to be enough to change everything, gain forgiveness and make everything right again.

I see I was right about the head of FEMA not lasting long, as he actually has resigned. After The Secret Police, er.. I mean... Homeland Security relieved him of control. I suspect he's going to get all the blame.

It seems to me that making all the emergency efforts go through the extra levelof bureaucracy that is Homeland Security (the same idiots turning away planes of aid because they might be terrorists) can't have helped speedy response much.