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View Full Version : Star Wars vs. Star Trek: THE MOD!


Kurgan
09-08-2005, 10:45 PM
Please, please tell me somebody is interested in doing this!

Just imagine, the ultimate battle of franchises! The mighty Galactic Empire vs. all of the fleets of Star Trek, in a battle to the death!

Imagine commanding a small but elite Imperial Expeditionary Force into the Milky Way Galaxy, hopping from planet to planet invading this mysterious "Federation." Fight the Klingons, the Romulans, Cardassians, the Dominion, the Borg! Since the Empire has hyperdrive they could even explore the far reaches of Trek space, and encounter the Hirogen, the Voth, and Species 8472!

Maybe an alternative scenario with the more war-like "Mirror Universe" of trek, with the Terran Empire (the evil version of the Federation). Then you could combine tech from the various factions and give them new weapons and things.

Or perhaps another scenario, you're an Alpha Quadrant alliance force making a desperate manuver against the Empire's elite scout ship. Destroy them and steal their technology! (imagine a Trek version of the assault on the Death Star or the first encounter with the Borg) Maybe something can be learned about this new enemy before it's too late.

It'd be a lot of work, and you'd probably have to make up crap to fill in some of the gaps (Star Trek is pretty skimpy on ground units), but I think it would be worth it, if the right modding tools are released for this game (and it doesn't suck!).

If only I had the time... but feel free to steal my idea! ;)

Panzer517
09-20-2005, 04:35 PM
btw the mod section seems to be completly dead, maybe its because noone knows about it or can't even see it.

RaVô
09-28-2005, 08:48 PM
Well I voted good idea, but now i'm starting to regret that choice when you think about it.

Jan Gaarni
09-29-2005, 01:55 AM
Or maybe because the game isn't out and we don't know too much about it yet? :)

lukeiamyourdad
09-29-2005, 09:27 PM
Wow, I can already hear the whining!

"The Star Wars side is overpowered!"

"No you noob! Star Trek is overpowered!"

Interesting idea :D

Jan Gaarni
10-08-2005, 11:29 AM
No, Luke, this is how it will go:

"The Star Wars side is overpowered!"

"No you noob! Star Trek just sucks!"

:D

vader815
10-23-2005, 07:16 PM
Star wars is not overpowered, see the borg will eventually adapt the imperial technology and use it against them, the brog are literally undefeatable

WxDude
10-26-2005, 10:09 PM
I think it would be a good idea...however the Star Wars physical weapons will pass right through the defenseive weapons of the Star Trek Universe and the energy weapons of Star Trek will bounce off the shields of the Star Destroyers. I play ST games and their shields are designed to protect from energy only weapons. There are no physical (i.e. Proton Torpedo) in Star Trek.

CondorFalco
11-20-2005, 12:34 PM
There are conventional weapons in ST, but they have become quickly superseeded by Quantum, Energy, Phase and Temporal weapons. Melee combat would be great - Klingons with Bat'Leths and various other things, like from Klingon Honour Guard (old, pretty crap pre Elite Force game). Ground units could be built-upon those ideas from Star Trek New Worlds, a seriously failed ground-based late-TOS era RTS. Space combat would be a bit unmatched in some areas - Victory Star Destroyer would only be able to be taken down by the Kremin Timeship, the Wells Class Timeship, or a combined Borg Tactical Fusion Cube, Prometheus, Soulwolf, D'derex, Akira, Defiant, Qo'Nos class armada (think Borg Incursion from ST:Armada 2 ;)). Then you get the problem of the Force vs Telepaths/Telekinetics (Betazoids, and the Telekinetics I think were those strange people from TOS) and the Prophets/Pah'Wraiths (DS9) - and lightsabers vs Bat'Leths. :) Just throwing a few ideas into the pan.

I personally think that ST vs SW has been done to death a bit, especially in the ST gaming circuit. There have been many great ST vs SW TCs, but to have another one would require an immensly dedicated team from before EAW was released. (And as already pointed out, we don't know the modding capabilities yet, but my hope is that they will be great because of the C&C background most of the developing studio has).

I hope I didn't sound to idea flattening...

Condor out.

Jeff
11-20-2005, 06:20 PM
It would be interesting at first, but I think all it would really cause would be a lot more hate between ST fans and trekkies because now they have a way to destroy eachother. But I guess it could be fun.

aggie_john
11-20-2005, 08:20 PM
Star Wars vs Star trek would be good but you need to define a few things like the time frame.
Me personally I think the Movie era star trek would be better, their more military in their design and planning. I know DS9 had a huge war but the federation was not even close to ready for it. They cought a bunch of huge breaks in that war. Kirks age was ready for a fight on two fronts.

lukeiamyourdad
11-20-2005, 10:37 PM
It would be interesting at first, but I think all it would really cause would be a lot more hate between ST fans and trekkies because now they have a way to destroy eachother. But I guess it could be fun.

Exactly, for once, we can settle on who's mightier then who. Star Wars will win of course :D

Commander Obi-Wan
11-20-2005, 11:07 PM
Star wars is not overpowered, see the borg will eventually adapt the imperial technology and use it against them, the brog are literally undefeatable

Well, they were just saying how people would argue if it happened, not literally.

CondorFalco
11-22-2005, 12:41 PM
I would love to see a fleet of Scimitars (ST: Nemesis) take on the Victory Star Destroyer and the Death Star :). That would be quite fun to watch :D.

Doc Valentine
11-26-2005, 05:03 AM
Sorry I just dont see a mod like this really working out. I mean the idea is nice but it would probably be a bear to make, and considering we know so little about the game and the areas of modding, the possibilities are quite slim.

Bob Lion54
11-26-2005, 08:32 AM
hehe.
I would love to fly into battle with the Enterprise E flanked by a Squaron of X-Wings.

lukeiamyourdad
11-26-2005, 11:34 AM
hehe.
I would love to fly into battle with the Enterprise E flanked by a Squaron of X-Wings.


That's just wrong man...just wrong :p

Oh man...I'm trying to picture it now...nah it's just wrong.

sagasky1864
12-10-2005, 03:23 PM
i want a babylon 5 mod...dont see that around much..

Bob Lion54
12-10-2005, 05:22 PM
^^^
hehe. That would be cool. I would have the Enterprise E flanked by a Squadron of X-Wings and a Squadron of Starfighters.

@LIAYD- now its even more wrong :xp:

Stalkerh
12-27-2005, 02:10 PM
hmmm.. I still have alot of resources in this area... and a group of people scattered around the world who'de be willing to take a project like this on.

This might be fun in a new game engine.... I'll check and see if anyone from the old STvsSW team for ST:Armada is interested and wants to take it on.

cpthooker
01-19-2006, 06:04 AM
Well star trek would win any day, I was wanting to do this mod as I have done ships for Star Trek:Bridge Commander, I will know people who might be able to help.

Admiral Sith
01-19-2006, 06:24 AM
sorry but the largest ship Star Trek as couldnt defeat an Acclamator. Its proven heres a link http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html.

ActofWar
01-19-2006, 07:41 AM
I never liked the idea of mixing Si-fi like this, so im affriad i vote no

TheGreenGoblin
01-19-2006, 07:44 AM
sorry but the largest ship Star Trek as couldnt defeat an Acclamator. Its proven heres a link http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html.


For the purposes of a mod, there's no reason they just can't make Wars/Trek roughly on equal footing to each other for the sake of gameplay.

Teradyn
01-19-2006, 02:31 PM
For the purposes of a mod, there's no reason they just can't make Wars/Trek roughly on equal footing to each other for the sake of gameplay.
The minute this is done, it takes away one of the base premises of a mod. The ability to put units into a game without having to worry about sacrificing "realism" for "balance" is something modders can do but companies can not, or will not.

Xyvik
01-19-2006, 03:23 PM
The minute this is done, it takes away one of the base premises of a mod. The ability to put units into a game without having to worry about sacrificing "realism" for "balance" is something modders can do but companies can not, or will not.

Which is why a lot of mods are piles of trash that fail less than a week after they are released. If you are attempting to make a multiplayer mod, balance -must- be at the very core of your design decisions, otherwise people will quickly figure out which side is strongest and never bother to play any other side because they would lose. And then they lose interest because it is one-sided, and go their merry ways. Realism has its place, of course, but if you don't balance things, then you wasted time making more than one side.

As for this ST vs SW discussion, the Federation would get its butt kicked by the Klingons anyway, so they are a horrible thing to base against Star Wars (as evidenced by the ST vs SW in five minutes). It can be endlessly debated about who would win, but in the end, the Borg rule, and so does Exar Kun. Now imagine if the Borg managed to assimilate a Jedi and kept his Force powers...

Rha
01-19-2006, 04:19 PM
I think it would be a good idea...however the Star Wars physical weapons will pass right through the defenseive weapons of the Star Trek Universe and the energy weapons of Star Trek will bounce off the shields of the Star Destroyers. I play ST games and their shields are designed to protect from energy only weapons. There are no physical (i.e. Proton Torpedo) in Star Trek. Photon and other types of Torpedoes are physical weapons in Star Trek. They are not balls of energy. There are many references to this in movies books and bla bla bla.

They are physical warheads and the shields in Star Trek do offer protection to these weapons. They detonate on the shields and not the hull of the ship. Shields in Star Wars donít seem to help all that much. Why would the energy weapons in Star Wars be so much deferent from that of Star Trek? Arenít they both ionized gas.

Here are some examples of Star Trek torpedoes.
http://www.ccdump.org/photontorps.html
http://www.ccdump.org/quantumtorps.html
http://www.ccdump.org/microqtorps.html

There were Star Wars vs. Star Trek mods for the Star Trek Armada games. The space combat in EAW is alot like that game also.

Darth Windu
01-24-2006, 10:43 PM
Why do people automatically assume SW ships are so much better than ST? Fact is, Star Trek is sci-fi so there are specifics for shield power, weapons power etc. However, Star Wars is fantasy, so there are no specs. This means that balance can easily be achieved.

As for physical weapons, if ST ships shields couldn't handle physical weapons, then they would get instantly blown apart by space dust, meteorites etc not to mention the various topedoes, which are physical weapons.

clone_troopa
01-25-2006, 03:00 AM
pfft... once the jedis start attacking all S-treek and the uber Death Star! course Star Wars wins...

besides.... SW got WAY bigger ships than ST :) size matters.... (dirty minds...)

i_am_joey_jo
01-25-2006, 06:37 AM
The Star Trek ships would just flank the Star Wars ships from behind their englines where they can't fire and blow them all up.

There's no need to talk about power here.

And BTW: neither is REAL!

clone_troopa
01-25-2006, 08:05 AM
oh fine them, my uber nuke pwns em all (btw SW got fighters for when those semi medium ST ships get behind a destroyer)

Admiral Sith
01-25-2006, 09:00 AM
The Fighter and Bombers squadrons could just attack the ones behind the big ships and blow them up with a few laser blasts.

jedi3112
01-25-2006, 03:03 PM
I think there is much we have to know about modding EAW. One thing I would really like to know is wheter or not we can add races instead of just replacing them. I seriously think it would be strange to have both the Rebels and the Empire sharing ships. The same goes for the ST races. So I think we need to be able to add them.

I'd also like to know what programs I should use for what. I have found several files I could open with notepad, but I still have to figure out what they say. And I need to know how the appearance of the units is done, I seriously hope it can be done using programs such as milkshape or 3ds max (maybe with some tools).

Admiral Sith
01-25-2006, 03:47 PM
You'se the extractor on the Config.meg and modify the XML folders. Someone has already created a new faction, and its very moddable

splintercell56
01-26-2006, 07:23 PM
I thought travel from the core to the outer rim took more then a few hours? But in the sight Admiral Sith provided says it takes less then a day. All this comparing numbers and tech is a little confusing. Why not just make a good Star Trek mod no crossovers unless really needed.

Kurgan
01-26-2006, 07:49 PM
Star wars is not overpowered, see the borg will eventually adapt the imperial technology and use it against them, the brog are literally undefeatable


That's an interesting question. Since this is a game, you couldn't just make the Borg able to adapt to anything (and the ability to adapt to "anything" is really a misunderstanding, since they are vulnerable to physical projectiles and blades, chemical weapons, and they can't adapt to bio-tech like species8472, even their vaunted shields can be overcome by high level brute force which overwhelms it). Perhaps it would be done like this:

Give a special ability to a Borg unit called "assimilate." I could see it for a ground unit sort of being like Chewbacca's "capture vehicle" ability. For a ship, I think if they did it that way you'd have to do a boarding action, but since the game doesn't have boarding actions (unless you wanted to make a level that was the "inside of a ship" that you have to win as the borg), you could just have it so that you tractor beam the ship and get the shields down, then you would have a special ability that would take the enemy ship, when it's almost destroyed and turn it to your side. Basically it would become a controllable ship, but it would have some crappy borge technology slapped onto it (black and gray tubes and metal, green lights). Perhaps you could regenerate it over time (repaired hull so it would be useful).

If you wanted to balance the ability (and this is more realistic) don't say they can suddenly build this ship after "assimilating" it, they can just use that one unit, and any others they assimilate. Perhaps make it so that you need a special "assimilation" ability research or a certain unit that can do it. Say shields block it, and of course destroying them before they can put up the tractor beam would stop it from happening. You could even say that the Borg can't figure out Empire technology, so after they steal an Acclamator or something, it suddenly can only use Borg weapons (beams, those pulse disruptors, tractor beams, etc) and has borg shields. It basically turns into a borg ship but with the speed and manuverability of the original ship (and hull strength, but not original shield strength, since they've basically gutted the ship and replaced it with their own technology inside).

It's an idea anyway!

A pure Star Trek mod would be cool, but eventually we'd need both forces to fight, just for the sheer fanboy amusement it would bring. ;)

....

The Star Trek ships would just flank the Star Wars ships from behind their englines where they can't fire and blow them all up.

There's no need to talk about power here.

And BTW: neither is REAL!


How dare you! *Fires Geek Cannon* ;)

Anyway, by being a member here you're basically admitting to a certain level of Geek-dom, so you don't have any shields, muhahahha.

Anyway, That's a common misconception. I mean, in EaW, why doesn't that strategy work (getting behind a ship and firing away at it until it's destroyed without it ever being able to fire back)? Plus, you forget about shields. A shielded Star Destroyer will laugh off the shots from Federation ships. They'd have to first take out the generator (in-game). Fighters would harass the Trek ships. After all, in Trek they focus almost exclusively on Capital ships rather than fighters. Yes the Empire would steam roll over the Federation, but that's why in making the game you could do little things to make it not seem so far-fetched (as in single player missions or equalizing certain things, but I'm not saying make Trek into an exact replica of say, the Rebels).

So anyway, these are all issues you'd have to work out in game. I'm more talking about a mod loosely based on the franchises, not an exact down to the detail "canon" representation. Because already you have the EaW version of the Rebellion and the Empire which are not exactly like the ones we see in the movies. The Trek version doesn't have to be exact either. Just enough to make you think "wow this is cool."

....

Why do people automatically assume SW ships are so much better than ST? Fact is, Star Trek is sci-fi so there are specifics for shield power, weapons power etc. However, Star Wars is fantasy, so there are no specs. This means that balance can easily be achieved.

Actually, this isn't quite correct. Both series's are Sci Fi AND sci fantasy. After all, Trek has ghosts, gods, monsters, magic, all that stuff. Sure they explain it away with technobabble, but it's still "fantastical" type stuff. And in actuality, the Trek technical manuals are NON-canon (as officially stated by Paramount which controls the franchise). Whereas the Star Wars technical books (like the Incredible Cross Sections and Essential Guides) are in the canon hierarchy (though subservient to the movies of course). So you can get technical specs. But again, that would be way too complicated.

The EaW version of the Empire/Rebellion is an aproximation accounting for gameplay mechanics (challenge, fun, balance). The Trek version could be done with a similar approach. If you wanted it 100% realistic to canon, you'd have to totally change the way the SW forces are in game, because they're not movie-perfect right now!


As for physical weapons, if ST ships shields couldn't handle physical weapons, then they would get instantly blown apart by space dust, meteorites etc not to mention the various topedoes, which are physical weapons.

They have navigational deflectors that are apparently always on that stop space dust. Their shields are strong against energy weapons they know about (like disruptors, phasers and tractor beams), but weak against physical impactors (like asteroids, kamikaze ships, even torpedoes). Basically how space combat typically goes in Trek is they close distance, fire away with torps until the shields are down, and then use phasers or beam over boarding parties and try to capture the ship. Sometimes they encounter some powerful race that is able to fire or beam through their shields, but they eventually are able to adapt and it goes back to standard tactics. In game it would probably just work out that shields and weapons always work. Perhaps the shields are more vulnerable to projectiles, but otherwise it would always "work" the same as we see in game already.

Personal shields are like this too. Borg soldiers for example, are able to shrug off phaser shots fairly easily, but they go down like unshielded beings from physical strikes and even physical bullets.

....

There are conventional weapons in ST, but they have become quickly superseeded by Quantum, Energy, Phase and Temporal weapons. Melee combat would be great - Klingons with Bat'Leths and various other things, like from Klingon Honour Guard (old, pretty crap pre Elite Force game). Ground units could be built-upon those ideas from Star Trek New Worlds, a seriously failed ground-based late-TOS era RTS. Space combat would be a bit unmatched in some areas - Victory Star Destroyer would only be able to be taken down by the Kremin Timeship, the Wells Class Timeship, or a combined Borg Tactical Fusion Cube, Prometheus, Soulwolf, D'derex, Akira, Defiant, Qo'Nos class armada (think Borg Incursion from ST:Armada 2 ;)). Then you get the problem of the Force vs Telepaths/Telekinetics (Betazoids, and the Telekinetics I think were those strange people from TOS) and the Prophets/Pah'Wraiths (DS9) - and lightsabers vs Bat'Leths. :) Just throwing a few ideas into the pan.

I personally think that ST vs SW has been done to death a bit, especially in the ST gaming circuit. There have been many great ST vs SW TCs, but to have another one would require an immensly dedicated team from before EAW was released. (And as already pointed out, we don't know the modding capabilities yet, but my hope is that they will be great because of the C&C background most of the developing studio has).

I hope I didn't sound to idea flattening...

Condor out.

Perhaps it's been done to death in the ST circuit, but I can't think of any games that have done it well in the SW section. And I'm not counting the various (often poorly done) Star Trek skins for like JA or something. I mean an actual "us vs. them" type mod for multiplayer or singleplayer, in REAL TIME.

Basically what is needed to really make this work is the ability to make custom maps, custom textures, and custom models work in-game. The rest can be done right now, and especially since somebody mentioned you can add new factions.

....

Photon and other types of Torpedoes are physical weapons in Star Trek. They are not balls of energy. There are many references to this in movies books and bla bla bla.

They are physical warheads and the shields in Star Trek do offer protection to these weapons. They detonate on the shields and not the hull of the ship. Shields in Star Wars don’t seem to help all that much. Why would the energy weapons in Star Wars be so much deferent from that of Star Trek? Aren’t they both ionized gas.

Here are some examples of Star Trek torpedoes.
http://www.ccdump.org/photontorps.html
http://www.ccdump.org/quantumtorps.html
http://www.ccdump.org/microqtorps.html

There were Star Wars vs. Star Trek mods for the Star Trek Armada games. The space combat in EAW is alot like that game also.

Well like a lot of things, they have "similar" technology but it doesn't always work the same. Compare the bubble shields in Trek to the various shield types in Episode I. Clearly Star Wars has various types. Compare the travel times of Hyperdrive across the galaxy in Episode III and Episode V vs. that in Star Trek Voyager (of course Star Trek V has travel apparently to the core of the galaxy in a barely functioning Enterprise-A but still). "Stun" setting is different, etc. Anyway, the point is you'd modify it to balance for gameplay sake. You could make Trek weaker in some areas, but compensate in others.

If you were to make it a multiplayer mod you'd have to fudge realism in order to balance it. For single player you wouldn't need to, just make it equal in terms of numbers, (like fewer ships vs. larger armies or something).

Smaller mods could of course be done, but I'm thinking combining the Trek forces into one "side" would be coolest and the best eventual goal of some such mod (if any of the people who did any of the other SWvsST mods would get involved that would be awesome), sort of like how so many factions joined forces to fight the Dominion in Deep Space Nine (for those who don't know, it was the Federation, Bajorans, Klingons and eventually Romulans vs. the Dominion and the Breen). You could toss in lesser seen aliens in later shows like the Ferengi (who in TNG had warships and were considered as powerful as the Federation). The Borg were considerably more powerful in TNG than in later shows. You could give them that power level compared to the Federation, but with the cool units they'd have later (like the Tactical Cubes, spheres and such). Basically any excuse to have the "cool" units from each side brought to the fray.

c0n5t4n7in3
01-26-2006, 11:15 PM
I think it's a great idea, but I would wait 'till the full version to mod the game.

Kurgan
01-27-2006, 11:29 AM
I'm sure you'd need to anyway due to the amount of new content you'd have to create that couldn't all be done in simple XML. ;)

But there's nothing wrong with planning ahead! A lot of interesting mods begin before a game even comes out.

aggie_john
01-28-2006, 01:09 AM
Well not to get into the which side is better conversation but there is one glaring problem with the star trek side....no real ground forces to speak of. I think you would have to make up a bunch of stuff to even it out, which could be cool if the designers were creative enough but then again I could see a bunch of people compaining that it was not genuine and crap.

Also you would need to deside which era you would make the game in... TOS/TMP era or the TNG era. You also need to deside which faction you want in. A total conversion or a versus. IE the dominion war or perhaps something never done before like the pre Star Trek wars with the alliance/new Federation against the Romulans or Kiligons or some versus war say Empire versus Federation/ Alpha Quadrant Allinace.

jedi3112
01-28-2006, 08:02 AM
Well not to get into the which side is better conversation but there is one glaring problem with the star trek side....no real ground forces to speak of. I think you would have to make up a bunch of stuff to even it out, which could be cool if the designers were creative enough but then again I could see a bunch of people compaining that it was not genuine and crap.

Also you would need to deside which era you would make the game in... TOS/TMP era or the TNG era. You also need to deside which faction you want in. A total conversion or a versus. IE the dominion war or perhaps something never done before like the pre Star Trek wars with the alliance/new Federation against the Romulans or Kiligons or some versus war say Empire versus Federation/ Alpha Quadrant Allinace.

The only St ground forces I've ever seen is that thing at the beginning of nemesis. And perhaps those in New Worlds (quite unkown because the game is crap, like only saving between missions, etc.). That would be one thing to take care of.

The era mostly used is the TNG era, come to think of it I've never really seen a ST game set in another era (perhaps NW, but I only played the demo). The factions aren't that hard to decide, but do largely depend on the era. I don't think it would be a good idea to put factions together.

I think there is much we have to know about modding EAW. One thing I would really like to know is wheter or not we can add races instead of just replacing them. I seriously think it would be strange to have both the Rebels and the Empire sharing ships. The same goes for the ST races. So I think we need to be able to add them.
Someone has already created a new faction, and its very moddable

I suggest enlarging the universe and add the following factions.

Rebels/New Republic/Seperatists/Trade Federation
Empire/Imperial Remnant/Old Republic (N1 constucted on Naboo)
Federation/Earth
Klingons
Romulans (inlude Remus for constuction of Reman ships, like the scimitar)
Borg (if TNG)
Cardassians (if TNG)
Dominion with subs (if TNG)
Vulcans (if Enterprise era)
Andorians (if Enterprise era)

At least include the major planets of ST,
Utopia Planetia (fed main shipyards, sort of functions like Kuat)
Romulus
Remus
Klingon home world
Gamma Quadrant (for dominion)
Cardassia
Delta Quadrant
Earth
Mars
Andorria
Vulcan

Add others to fill up that galaxy. Now you may need to think of some groundunits for each one, and they need to be in style, so I think the Feds would use hovering vehicles, but I don't know about the others.

Kurgan
01-28-2006, 12:27 PM
True enough, across all of canon ST, there's basically just infantry, troop hoppers (mentioned in a DS9 episode but never shown), a mortar (TOS), an armed dune buggy (Nemesis), a laser cannon implacement (TOS: The Cage/Menagerie), orbital bombardments (TOS: A Piece of the Action and a few rumored episodes), base shields (Enterprise episode with the Klingon virus), transporter inhibitors/attack drones (Insurrection), and that's about it. For the most part Trek factions rely on space power, and their infantry consists of marines or warriors which are little more than glorified starship security forces.

In a game like this, that would mean the Trek forces would have great difficulty holding any planets, but oh well, it's still just an idea. ;) You could make up stuff, or you could focus on space, or do a single player campaign that wouldn't have to be balanced.

I guess with regards to era, you would probably want to take TNG era (including the TNG movies up to Nemesis) and just retroactively throw in everything that came before, much like EaW does with the Rebellion/Empire. After all, in the classic trilogy we never see Clone Wars era ships and vehicles being used, but EaW assumes they didn't just throw them all away, recycle them or forget how to build them. So you could still say, build a Constitution class starship (Kirk's era) or a mortar, despite them never being seen in Picard and Janeway's time. And the MACO's from Enterprise fight much better than many of the security forces in the later shows, so you'd think that they would be capable of training marines who were at least as well equipped, but with "modern" (for them) weaponry and gear.

CondorFalco
01-29-2006, 07:06 AM
The Elite Force squad is a modern version of MAKO in ST:Voy (there is a game by the same name). Ground forces would require an artistic license.

Adding a few more planets to the list:

As regards the Galaxy Map, do you think it would be possible to change the planets into star systems (such as Sol, Trill system etc.) as seen in Birth of the Federation (the only TBS and one of the greatest ST games ever created). This would increase the amount of buildings available to be built in a single system, and therefore you could add more buildings for different strategies.

jedi3112
01-29-2006, 08:14 AM
You could have one planet funtion as sort of a doorway, and have the other planets in a star system connect to only each other, while the doorway planets connect to the planets in a system as well as some other doorway planets. Though you might consider an asteroid field to be this doorway planet, or a sun, or deep space. We'll need to see what's available in the full game.

CondorFalco
01-29-2006, 11:35 AM
Yeah. Sounds plausible though. However, you would probably need to scale down the planets, or increase the size of the Galaxy for it to work well (or both).

Kurgan
01-29-2006, 09:34 PM
The Elite Force squad is a modern version of MAKO in ST:Voy (there is a game by the same name). Ground forces would require an artistic license.

Right, except the MAKO's are canon, while the Elite Force is not. The Elite Force was only used in a fictional segment of Voyager's history (200 years after the MACO's during the time of Enterprise). There are Federation ground forces, according to Star Trek VI and DS9's later seasons. It's also hinted at in a few TOS episodes (notably "The Cage" and the episode with the Yangs/Kohms, I forget the name of that one). The Dominion uses the Jem Hadar, and the Klingons use infantry. The Romulans use Reman infantry, according to Nemesis. The Borg of course use their Drones as cannon fodder.

It's true though, their ground forces are pathetic compared to the Star Wars factions, since they largely consist of just infantry.

CondorFalco
01-30-2006, 02:41 AM
Very true, however the Jem-Hadar use various heavy weapons as well, and they are even tougher than the Klingons, so they would probably be as close to an even match against Stormtroopers as possible, and I suspect that they would almost destroy a rebel infantry squad quite quickly. They are also cloned, with the only two downsides being their addiction to Ketracel White, and their short life-span (max 6yrs I think). They also use cloaked hovering mines (can't remeber their name), that are incredibly deadly. I do not believe that the Feds have very heavy handheld weaponary, and I suspect that the Klingons do have heavy weaponary, although they do not use it as much since they prefer melee combat.

jedi3112
01-30-2006, 06:17 AM
The problem with only infantry is that an AT-AT or tracked tank (what was it called again a T3-B or is that the thing from Force Commander, damn numbers?) can quite easy flatten your infantry forces. Vehicles are needed. So you may want to design some stuff on your own, though somebody mentioned that that would require some sort of licence. Though I believe there are quite some fan designed ships in A2. And when designing vehicles you may also need to figure out what looks fit in with the faction.

CondorFalco
01-30-2006, 06:52 AM
Well, to start off with, I think somebody has already mentioned the Argus and the speeder buggy seen in Nemesis, so they could be used as a quick insertion vehicle and scout vehicle. Tanks etc, well they could be evolved forms as what were scene in New Worlds.
I suspect that the Romulans would use combinations of incredibly heavy firepower combined with cloaking swift strike forces, and almost all of their units would be able to cloak somehow (giving a very large tactical advantage).
The Klingons would most likely resort to troop transports to insert their brave warriors onto the field, with medium sized vehicles making the bulk of the tanks, etc.
The Federation would have a mixture of artillery, close combat vessels and all-purpose attack craft, all being high-tech. These would probably be the weakest, since the Feds are not accustomed to fighting ground battles post TOS (Klingons vs Feds) - with the exception being the Dominion War of course. So you could argue that the Feds would be developing on the ground attack front.
The Romulans would probably have artillery as well, with it being very high-tech, and the Klingons would most likely not have any meaningful artillery since they prefer close quarters battles.

jedi3112
01-30-2006, 09:47 AM
I agree with you on the units. For a general layout of the units I'd use

I think the feds would mostly use fast repulsorlift vehicles, giving them a huge disadvantage when fighting on planest where repulsorlifsts are disabled. They would also use some wheeled vehicled for these planets. Most fed vehicles, if not all of them, would be shielded, but lacking in raw firepower and armor. I think the feds would also use some type of flying units, the way the rebels use their speeders. The fed would have a well balanced force, but individual units would be relatively weak in combat compared to the others. They also would be slightly more expensive, for the technology. The boost shields special abilty would be one the feds would most likely use. I think the feds would use mostly energy weapons

I think the klingons would use tracked vehicles and walkers, but no repulsorlifts. I also don't think the klingons would use shields a lot. I suspect they rely on pure armor. I think the klingons would use a lot of firepower, but with short ranges compared to the others. I don't think the klingons would use artillery. I think some of the Harkonnen units from Emperor:Battle for Dune would fit in with the klingons. Mostly the buzzsaw. The klingons would probably use the boost weapons special ability. The klingons might also use a lot of shield penetrating weapons. They also would use somewhat cheap stuff.

The romulans would most likely use repulsorlifts and tracked/wheeled vehicles, but no walkers. All of these in a well balanced mix. They would also use a lot of sneaky stuff, such as a cloaking device, and ion cannons, as well as shield penetrating guns. The rommies would have quite some firepower as well as longer ranges. So they don't have to engage in close combat, but can bombar them from a safe distance. Their main army would be based on the protection of the artillery, as well as a spotter to find the targets. I think the rommies would keep a few bombers in reserve during a defending spacebattle, so that if they lose they can use those bombers during the groundbattle that usually follows. I think the romulans should have a special unit that functions the same as their cloak enhencer from their A2 frigate. They would also have a cloaked spotter for their artillery.

Romulan space forces should be able to retreat even if there is a gravity well active, by cloaking. Though I am thinking about countering this one, by for example destroying their cloaking device, or have some cloak detect units. I also don't know wheter it's possible to initiate battle with only cloaked units. Undetectable units present when building a space station should not prefent the construction, but I believe they already don't.

The cardassians would use really cheap units, and mainly skirmisher type units. This would be artillery with some really fast hit and run units. These guys would most likely have the longest ranges and the fastest units. Though the damge they do with each shot is somewhat weak, and when surrounded they are really in trouble. They would probably use their infantry as cannon fodder and as spotter units. Their infantry should not have a lot of firepower, and their squads should come in small numbers.

Now about the cloaking, I think all infantry should be able to detect cloaked units in their LOS. Also all scout units should be able to detect them. The spotter units that comes with artillery should also be able to detect cloaked troops. The other units should be able to detect them only if they are really close to them. When a units is disabled it should also not be able to cloak, and if it already was cloaked it should immediatly decloak, with shields down.

CondorFalco
01-30-2006, 10:05 AM
I pretty much agree with what you have said. However, as regards to cloaking, their is the Tachyon Detection Grid as featured in TNG which renders cloaking useless, and this would probably be only equipped on the spotters and scoutcraft. Infantry would not be able to operate such a device since it requires a lot of power, and a deflection grid/deflector, so unless say a group of scouts were specialised and carried the equipment around (say, 6 of them) and deployed, it would not fit. And yes, as in A2, units that have the ability to cloak and have been disabled, will decloak without shields.

jedi3112
01-30-2006, 10:26 AM
I think your eyesight should be able to detect cloaked units, possibly by disturbances in the terrain (suck as dust clouds). You generally can't see very far, unless the terrain is wide open. Or you might hear them. Still I don't know what the possibilities are with cloak, as it is not in the game. So that is quite important to find out. There is also the possibility of using Force sensitive units to detect cloak. They should feel the presence of life through the Force.

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 11:18 AM
Very true, however the Jem-Hadar use various heavy weapons as well, and they are even tougher than the Klingons, so they would probably be as close to an even match against Stormtroopers as possible, and I suspect that they would almost destroy a rebel infantry squad quite quickly. They are also cloned, with the only two downsides being their addiction to Ketracel White, and their short life-span (max 6yrs I think). They also use cloaked hovering mines (can't remeber their name), that are incredibly deadly. I do not believe that the Feds have very heavy handheld weaponary, and I suspect that the Klingons do have heavy weaponary, although they do not use it as much since they prefer melee combat.

If you wanted to, you could incorporate the Ketracel White into the game by say, having it be part of a troop training facility for those units or something (a prerequisite for building Jemmies).

What "heavy weapons" did the Jem Hadar soldiers employ? When I checked they still only had hand held weapons (basically small arms and knives, and by "small arms" I mean a pistol, a rifle, etc). The Klingons had mortars in one episode of DS9. Sure they (JM) had the "natural ability to shroud" (a type of personal cloak) but that's hardly a "heavy weapon" (and scanners can beat it apparently it only fools the naked eye). Those mines you're talking about are the "Houdinis" (randomly teleporting cloaked anti-personel mines). Again, that's not really a "heavy weapon" like artillery or a combat vehicle... The reliance on melee combat is a distinct disadvantage, since it means you have to get close to use it. If your troops are smartly commanded, you just set up position and mow them down, like the troops in WWI charging machinegun nests... In game you could fudge it a little more of course.

A "heavy weapon" isn't a handheld device. But anyway, you could talk about the various handheld weapons that the Federation has like the Type I and Type II phasers, the various phaser rifles, the "rocket launcher" type weapon that Worf happened to have with him in Insurrection (rather weak, but good range). In the original pilot for TOS ("The Cage", also featured in The Menagerie for obvious reasons) they had a laser cannon that was powered by a Starship in orbit which otherwise seemed rather powerful compared to anything else they had at the time. TOS had a mortar, only seen in one episode. Enterprise featured "stun grenades" but one could argue they were only used then because their "phase pistol" stuns weren't very advanced (or not). The MACO's carried early pulse phaser rifles (they also had phase rifles, an early version of phaser rifles, in Enterprise).

But anyway, we're still talking small arms (carriable by a single trooper) in all these cases, and still talking infantry. If it were just infantry vs. infantry it wouldn't be so bad, but the general lack of vehicles is a major problem. You have "hoppers" for moving troops and the Argo (dune buggy), that's about it, and maybe if you used shuttles in a support role.

Hence the need to invent new units for the ST ground forces... the more they would seem to "fit" the better, of course.

Vyraeth
01-30-2006, 03:07 PM
To help with unit creation/design for the MOD, here are two websites with a decent amount of Star Trek military information:

www.ditl.org AND www.treknology.org.

The treknology website has grounds units, but most are non-canon, they do, however, conform to canonical standards.

Hope those links help!

-- Vyraeth

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 04:59 PM
Yeah, non-canon firepower figures can be ignored (I believe DITL differentiates between canon and speculation), essentially we need something that works for THIS game. But that could be a good source for ideas on how to fill in the gaps. None of this crazy "turbolasers would go right through Federation ships without damage" stuff.
;)

The Doctor
01-30-2006, 06:00 PM
That alternate reality from Trek you mentioned, Kurgan? It's now in the Star Wars universe too! Read my fic!

Anyway, I think it's a great idea. I would love to be able to pwn a star destroyer with Voyager or the Enterprise!

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 06:15 PM
Well I think "pwn" is too strong a word in this case, but we'll let it slide. Such a small ship probably couldn't take on an ISD on its own, even in this game! ;)

Vyraeth
01-30-2006, 06:31 PM
Well, I gave those links just as references, I.E. conceptual ideas for units. It'd be pretty hard to model this game after a realistic interpretation of the two universes (calculations from on screen evidence -- yes there's people that calculate it -- show a strong indication that Star Wars ships have powers well beyond anything in Star Trek), since Star Trek would be wiped out in the first few seconds. :-D.

Rather, whoever is working on this MOD will have to figure out a proper balancing scheme, but right now, I just hope we fill in the gaps for all the Trek races included.

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 06:39 PM
I agree. Credit should of course be given to the folks on those sites who came up with the ideas in question if they are used. I agree, this would probably be "fudged" in favor of gameplay balance rather than "realism" based on calculations from canon. I mean after the mod is finished (if it's ever started and finished) you COULD sit down and make your own version that was more "realistic" by adjusting the stats. Just for fun... But the main work is creating the models and textures with the new faction, once you've decided which ones you're going to make and how they'll work.

I still think the easiest way to do it would be just to combine the Trek "races" together into one side. Unless you wanted to do a "Star Trek Total Conversion" where everything was changed into something from Star Trek, which would be a whole different animal. But I think ST vs SW is just a cooler idea. ;)

So somebody get those former ST vs SW modders on the phone and get them in here...

The Doctor
01-30-2006, 06:41 PM
Well I think "pwn" is too strong a word in this case, but we'll let it slide. Such a small ship probably couldn't take on an ISD on its own, even in this game! ;)

I've seen that argument before somewhere.... the Trekkies won.

Vyraeth
01-30-2006, 06:59 PM
I thought it would be cooler to have multiple sides involved in the conflict. Get the Imperials, Rebs, Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians (or whomever) in one big free for all (assuming the game is moddable to that faction extent).

This would also add expanded capability to the skirmish mode, where players could play just ST battles if they wanted, or Empire vs (spinoff -- not just Fed) battles, etc.

Yeah, it's more work, but it would make the mod far more worthwhile in the long run. Although, I suppose just to start it off, you could do Empire versus Federation -- since those two sides are the first thought to clash, etc.

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 11:41 PM
I've seen that argument before somewhere.... the Trekkies won.


I'd like to see it. From where I'm standing, even if the ISD somehow never fought back, the Enterprise (E? D?) or Voyager would simply run out of ordinance before the ship was destroyed (and I don't mean completely vaporized, because that would be impossible for the tiny ship, rather I mean unable to fight or escape... I mean sure they could ram the bridge with self destruct on, but even that action would not stop the ship since they could still continue to fight, though losing your primary bridge crew certainly isn't anything to sneeze at, and that's all assuming they can even break through the shields beforehand). The rationale people use to defend the incredible power of the ISD has to do with its surviving asteroid hits and destroying asteroids so easily (plus there's numbers stated in official sources, but I'm saying based on direct observation of the movies alone). It's sheer size alone compared to the common Trek ships makes a big difference!

I'm not wishing to get into a numbers war on ST vs SW, but go see for yourself for the size comparison (http://www.merzo.net).

Here's a pic I made from that very site for easier comparison.
http://www.swbattlefront.net/nitpicker/swvst1.jpg

And yes, that tiny blob in the upper right is Voyager! I suppose you might try to argue that Voyager has taken on large ships before, like Borg cubes, but remember how nerfed they had to be for Voyager to be able to take them on (it took entire FLEETS to beat Borg cubes previously in the show), and in almost all cases they used some kind of technobabble to win anyway, which can't really be used in a discussion like this, or else you'd have to give that benefit to the Empire as well (besides, who's to say they know as much about the Empire as the Borg, whom they've been fighting for decades). ;)

In a real fight, the ISD is bristling with turbolasers, each with enough power to disable an unshielded ship the size of the Enterprise-D quite easily in one shot (notice how they did just that to the Tantive IV, which is about the size of Voyager). Forget what you've seen in Rogue Squadron and the X-Wing games. A single snub fighter cannot take down a capital ship in combat unless the people on the capital ship commit suicide! In the movies it took other capital ships and/or concentrated bombardment by bombers to do that kind of damage. Likewise an exploration warship like the Enterprise couldn't do it alone.

And if their goal is simply destruction, target their warp core, boom! The ISD also has tractor beam projectors, ion cannons and can launch fighters. Perhaps a fleet could stand a better chance, but anyway, this is really a job for the game, not debaters. ;)

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 11:44 PM
I thought it would be cooler to have multiple sides involved in the conflict. Get the Imperials, Rebs, Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians (or whomever) in one big free for all (assuming the game is moddable to that faction extent).

This would also add expanded capability to the skirmish mode, where players could play just ST battles if they wanted, or Empire vs (spinoff -- not just Fed) battles, etc.

Yeah, it's more work, but it would make the mod far more worthwhile in the long run. Although, I suppose just to start it off, you could do Empire versus Federation -- since those two sides are the first thought to clash, etc.


Well once you create the new unit (i.e: rather than just replacing the in-game ones with Star Trek ones) you could use the level editing capability (when we get it) to create new levels with those Trek units, and thus your Trek only missions or whatever. But see most people are going to want to see what happens with those other factions. So you'll need to do all the popular matchups. Borg vs. Rebels, Dominion vs. Empire, united Alpha/Beta Quadrants vs. the Empire, Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta quadrants vs. the Empire, etc. ;)

It'd be like doing a Marvel Vs. DC grudge match and only getting to see Superman vs. Hulk! You've got to eventually do the other stuff...

Matthes
01-31-2006, 03:24 PM
sounds like an interesting idea

well, i am not that deep into Star Trek, but i am also no uberb00n

if we would concentrate on the space fight, the federation has no chance against the empire / new republic (even the old republic)

maybe the cloaking devices are quite helpful as there is nothing similar in Star Wars (at least not in the movies)
beaming could enable hit and run attacks

but i think that the borg would have a quite good chance
they could lose one or two cubes due to the death star :p but if they get used to it, no chance

all in all, you guys have forgotten one big thing

the almighty force :clap2:
could a borg stand against a lightsaber?
maybe, but let's not forget lightning and grip and mind control

and as there are no small ships (except the shuttles), they couldn't even attack the vulnerability of the death star :D
or what would they do against enemy fighter squadrons (like the X,Y,A,B-Wing?)

doesn't matter, they don't even have something against the good ol force ;)

KhaosNite
01-31-2006, 04:04 PM
Ok im somewhat of a Trekkie, and in the EU of star trek, most starships are equipped with marine corps and fighters. which makes them someone of a formidable force. the sovereign class alone could take out the heavy frigates with 1/2 torpedos and its phaser banks could easily target the fighters, but might be hard to actually use them. Now there are the Jem Hadar fighters of the Dominion who could infact be the leading force against rebel/imp fighters

Nakatomi2010
01-31-2006, 04:50 PM
Well, I'll throw in my two cents...

To make this sort of thing feasible we need some sort of tie in, I mean we can't just say "Ta-Da, Star Wars vs Star Trek"... No... So, since Star Wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, we can build on that... So... Eliminate the 'Long Time Ago' factor and we're left with "Far, far away"... With that said, depending on what the game can allow, we could create a "planet" and call it a wormhole, with the ability to build a space station around it, this wormhole would lead to our galaxy, which on the other end would be an area which another space station could be built (See Deep Space Nine), and restrict movement so that all intergalactic travels MUST go through that point... (Man I'd enjoy writing the story on this, mission by mission....)

Now we have the universes connected... Then comes the balancing act... Because of how complex the Star Wars ships are, they take longer to build, this is proven through Rebellion, so keep Star Wars ship priced higher and take longer to build, while the Star Trek vessels would take less time and be cheaper do to their ease of construction...

Next part? The forces involved. The two universes pretty much have diplomacies inorder to make things happen... So, if the Federation and the Empire were to meet, we'd need some kind of ground that makes them have to have a war for inter-galactic domination... The Empire generally views non-humans as slaves or low on thespecies chain, except some such as Thrawn, and so on... So, Empire meets Federation, Federation is an alliance of planets of humans and non-humans... Empire doesn't like this and goes to war on two fronts, againt the Rebel alliance, and the Federation Star Trek Universe... We will assume the Emperor is alive at this time and that he is the driving force of this war... As the Empire begins invading the Star Trek galaxy, the Empire outsources some of the jobs relating to the harvesting of money, and such, to the Hutts, who contract jobs out to smugglers, who encounter and bring back Ferengi, who piss off the Hutts who really begin to back the Empire, as the Ferengi now back the Federation/their own cause..... As the Rebels send a fleet to investigate they discover the worm hole on their own get attack by cloaked Romulans... The Rebels forge a temporary alliance with the Empire combining both Imperial and Alliance forces in a joint attack on the Star Trek galaxy... With the Romulan scouts being destroyed the Romulans fight the Federation and its cohorts for control of the worm hole, while eventually giving in and forging their own temporary alliance against the Star Wars Universe....

Enter the Borg.... As the Star Wars galaxy pushes their way deeper and deeper into the Star Trek galaxy they finally encounter traces of the borg, who have gained an interest in this battle and begin to assimilate both sides... And so on...

Species 8472 would be kept out of all of this because although they're neat and would give the Star Wars empire a run for their money, they would not align themselves with either side, so if they WERE included, they'd need to be the pirates, where they go in **** all over the fight and leave....

comrade-max
02-12-2006, 05:25 AM
**** the storyline, who needs one. Federation vs Empire/Federation vs Rebellion simple as poo.
You could then go on to add the borg as a forth faction as it would be interesting to use. Balance the sides forget the 'real' figures

i would work on this mod (coder) i am experienced with Cnc Generals ini and can do most of EAW xml

Jan Gaarni
02-12-2006, 05:16 PM
Wouldn't the Federation join on the rebel side and not the Imperial side?

CondorFalco
02-13-2006, 01:39 AM
I would have thought so. Although I have seen a couple of mods that have Feds vs Rebels vs Imperials (ie free-for-all).

comrade-max
02-13-2006, 05:56 AM
well maybe in the campains (if any) and galactic conquest but in skirmish it should be free for all. there need be no story there need be work models etc to get people interested

rderveloy
02-14-2006, 11:49 AM
A simular mod was created for the Star Trek Armada games. It'll be good if you can pull off a well balanced game especially since the Star Trek technology is supposed to be far more advanced than Star Wars.

Best of luck.

Lord Chimaera
02-14-2006, 12:48 PM
They just announced a new Star Trek RTS game called 'Star Trek: Legacy'.
Here is the link:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/startreklegacy/index.html
so I hope that this can please you trekkies.

*btw, I think that Empire at War will kick the above games' ass!

TheGreenGoblin
02-16-2006, 02:02 PM
Based on? ;)


Anyway, that game looks good to, it sounds like it'll be more in-depth than Armada and the ships will have more staying power, especially interested in the idea of spanning the entire period between Enterprise to post-Nemesis.

CondorFalco
02-16-2006, 02:16 PM
Yeah, there have been rumours of it being a ST:FC and Armada cross. I just wish the graphics were much better.

arkodeon
02-16-2006, 04:05 PM
I'd like to see it. From where I'm standing, even if the ISD somehow never fought back, the Enterprise (E? D?) or Voyager would simply run out of ordinance before the ship was destroyed (and I don't mean completely vaporized, because that would be impossible for the tiny ship, rather I mean unable to fight or escape... I mean sure they could ram the bridge with self destruct on, but even that action would not stop the ship since they could still continue to fight, though losing your primary bridge crew certainly isn't anything to sneeze at, and that's all assuming they can even break through the shields beforehand). The rationale people use to defend the incredible power of the ISD has to do with its surviving asteroid hits and destroying asteroids so easily (plus there's numbers stated in official sources, but I'm saying based on direct observation of the movies alone). It's sheer size alone compared to the common Trek ships makes a big difference!

I'm not wishing to get into a numbers war on ST vs SW, but go see for yourself for the size comparison (http://www.merzo.net).

Here's a pic I made from that very site for easier comparison.
http://www.swbattlefront.net/nitpicker/swvst1.jpg

And yes, that tiny blob in the upper right is Voyager! I suppose you might try to argue that Voyager has taken on large ships before, like Borg cubes, but remember how nerfed they had to be for Voyager to be able to take them on (it took entire FLEETS to beat Borg cubes previously in the show), and in almost all cases they used some kind of technobabble to win anyway, which can't really be used in a discussion like this, or else you'd have to give that benefit to the Empire as well (besides, who's to say they know as much about the Empire as the Borg, whom they've been fighting for decades). ;)

In a real fight, the ISD is bristling with turbolasers, each with enough power to disable an unshielded ship the size of the Enterprise-D quite easily in one shot (notice how they did just that to the Tantive IV, which is about the size of Voyager). Forget what you've seen in Rogue Squadron and the X-Wing games. A single snub fighter cannot take down a capital ship in combat unless the people on the capital ship commit suicide! In the movies it took other capital ships and/or concentrated bombardment by bombers to do that kind of damage. Likewise an exploration warship like the Enterprise couldn't do it alone.

And if their goal is simply destruction, target their warp core, boom! The ISD also has tractor beam projectors, ion cannons and can launch fighters. Perhaps a fleet could stand a better chance, but anyway, this is really a job for the game, not debaters. ;)

You are forgetting that in 'Our' galaxy, the Star Trek galaxy (I refer to 'ours' because Star Trek is set in our galaxy...etc.) lasers are COMPLETELY obsolete.

If you really wanted a critical, scientific look at it, read the 'story' on that dtl.org or whatever...>_>...about the fight between Federation and Empire.

The Federation has superior technology, centuries ahead of the Star Wars universe. Why?

Four words.

'A Long time Ago...'

Yeah, so seeing as how Star Trek is in the future, and Star Wars is in the past, I'm going to have to agree with that story. But on the same note, Star Trek universe would lose a lot of ground since it doesn't have enough numbers to combat the hundreds of thousands of Imperial/Republic ships.

Darth Vaner
02-17-2006, 04:29 PM
Really a great idea !

It was always my dream to mix the two universe so where's the link to download it :P

Admiral Sith
02-17-2006, 07:05 PM
Star Wars lasers were more than 5 Trillion times powerful than Star Trek lasers. http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

Vyraeth
02-20-2006, 06:33 AM
Well once you create the new unit (i.e: rather than just replacing the in-game ones with Star Trek ones) you could use the level editing capability (when we get it) to create new levels with those Trek units, and thus your Trek only missions or whatever. But see most people are going to want to see what happens with those other factions. So you'll need to do all the popular matchups. Borg vs. Rebels, Dominion vs. Empire, united Alpha/Beta Quadrants vs. the Empire, Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta quadrants vs. the Empire, etc.

It'd be like doing a Marvel Vs. DC grudge match and only getting to see Superman vs. Hulk! You've got to eventually do the other stuff...

No, no, no, you're missing the point. ;-). The idea is to setup all the sides and let players choose their matchups. Play the galactic conquest game with all the factions, or setup a skirmish between the Borg vs. Empire, Rebels vs. Borg, Federation vs. Empire, etc.

Yeah, I really hope this MOD undergoes development.

TotalBiscuit
02-20-2006, 07:16 AM
Balance > Lore. Nuff said.

TB.

53rdCard
02-21-2006, 03:06 PM
I think that a SW vs. new battlestar galatica universe would be better, the ships would be of comparable size, the galatica type of ships don't use energy based weapons and even have nukes (at least not the new ones and I like the new series way better then the old) not to mention that if you also brought the cylons into it. But they dont have shields.

Just my 2 cents

TheGreenGoblin
03-13-2006, 12:41 PM
Star Wars lasers were more than 5 Trillion times powerful than Star Trek lasers. http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html


Major races in Trek use phasers, polaron beams and disruptors, not lasers. ;)

Anyway, I've seen that site, I do agree that the Empire would likely be able to defeat most of the major powers in Trek (excluding God beings and super races like the Borg and Species 8472 of course), but then again the Star Wars galaxy dwellers have had FTL capability for THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of years, it's not surprising they would be able to overpower the Federation which has only existed for several hundred years.

Although, I will say that I think the Federation is progressing at such a rapid rate (supported by fleeting glimpses of the future such as the 31st Century) it won't be long before they surpass their counterparts in the Star Wars galaxy.

Rhedd-5
03-13-2006, 02:16 PM
Where's the option to vote for, "I spend all day at work building ships for Star Trek Legacy. I play EaW to relax. Mixing the two would just confuse me." ?

^_^

Not to mention, everytime someone compares the Enterprise to a Star Destroyer, an Ewok dies. Please, think of the Ewoks.

Admiral Sith
03-13-2006, 02:27 PM
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
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star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
Take that you stupid Ewoks!

I was refering to this You are forgetting that in 'Our' galaxy, the Star Trek galaxy (I refer to 'ours' because Star Trek is set in our galaxy...etc.) lasers are COMPLETELY obsolete.

CondorFalco
03-13-2006, 02:45 PM
Where's the option to vote for, "I spend all day at work building ships for Star Trek Legacy. I play EaW to relax. Mixing the two would just confuse me." ?

You work for Maddoc? Any idea when Legacy will be released?


As for the Ewoks, I think they're cute, if a bit primative.

arkodeon
03-13-2006, 04:04 PM
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
Take that you stupid Ewoks!

I was refering to this

What the hell? Maturity level = 0. ):

Admiral Sith
03-14-2006, 06:47 AM
I hate ewoks, and did you even bother to see what we were talking about?

MistenTH
03-14-2006, 09:52 AM
Would be cool, but balancing it properly, given how polarised both sides are is going to be tough.

Size wise the main Alpha Quadrant races aren't going to win any of the big SW ships. The most powerful Federation Ship atm the Fast-Battleship / Heavy 'Explorer' (hahaha, as if) Sovereign class only carries a crew of 1000 as opposed to an ISD's 27000.

Although one thing is for sure is that SW fighters will not have a chance against ST beam weaponry, given that they track nearly perfectly and have no discernable travel time, unless they develop really heavy shields (maybe assault shuttles).

By the way, I believe SW 'lasers' are actually a sort of directed plasma charge, and not 'lasers' per se. This would make them more similar to the plasma torpedoes employed by the Romulans, but with less firepower and more speed.

One could also argue that the Small Trek ships have excellent field of fire coverage, and could just sit next to a large SW capital ship's blind spot and blast away with impunity.

Also, there do seem to be heavy weapons such as Trilithium torpedoes that can destroy structures the size of a ISD (Voyager, Caretaker station.)

Probably though, for a balanced game, the ST ships can be extremely hard to hit by the big SW ships, since they can't target the fast ships very well. So the smaller SW ships will have to do so, with better fields of fire, but they still don't move very fast.

ST also has big capital ships, such as the Dominion Battlecruiser, other than Borg Cubes. And they have been taken down.

Ah well, good luck!

Admiral Sith
03-14-2006, 12:48 PM
According to the guides to each sides vessals the entire Federation fleet couldnt take out a single SW bomber.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

TheGreenGoblin
03-14-2006, 01:09 PM
^^
You mean the entire Federation fleet firing ALL at the same time on a single TIE-Bomber, they wouldn't be able to destroy it? The same unshielded, slow-moving, TIE-Bomber?

MistenTH
03-14-2006, 01:17 PM
It says the the E-E can't take out an Acclamator, doesn't say anything about not being able to take out a bomber.

At any rate if you want a meaningful playable matchup the sides will have to be balanced, or else no one would play a stomp for very long.

jedi3112
03-14-2006, 03:35 PM
The Armada mods are already nicely balanced. The only thing that remains to be done is the speed of the ships as hyperdrive is rendered irrelevant by way EAW is. You may also want to devide the faser strips up into sections, and maybe have shields protect against torps a well. As for the fighters, the Armada mods also had quite a decent number of forward firing small ships. And don't forget that most SW ships also can hit nearly everything.

Admiral Sith
03-14-2006, 09:05 PM
Star Wars: Slave-1
Main guns: 64000 GW (2 kilotons per shot, 480 rpm firing rate onscreen in AOTC for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Missiles: 190 megatons (tail-launched missiles; seismic charge mines are roughly 12000 megatons)
Sublight acceleration: 2500G
Operational range: not stated (however, Obi-Wan's starfighter has an operational range of 150,000 light-years, and is probably similar).
Shield heat dissipation: not stated (however, Amidala's personal yacht has shield dissipation of 2 billion GW peak, and is probably similar)
Reactor power: not stated (however, Amidala's personal yacht has power output of 7 billion GW max, and is probably similar)
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, same-day flight from core to galactic outer-rim systems requires speeds in excess of 10 million c)

Star Trek: Enterprise-D
Main phasers: 3.6 GW
Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical
Sublight acceleration: 1000G
Operational range: 2750 light-years
Shield heat dissipation: 3311 GW peak
Reactor power: ~4 billion GW at max warp 9.6
Max warp speed: ~2000c (warp 9.6)
Even this seemingly Trek-biased matchup seems to heavily favour the Empire, with Jango Fett's small patrol craft able to hit the Enterprise-D with much heavier firepower than it can dish out in return. Small wonder, then, that despite the simplicity and convenience of the lazy man's method, most Trekkies prefer to avoid it.

Not to mention that several times in ST they state that it would take almost their entire Photon Torpedo load to destroy a Hollow astroid. Yet in Star Wars they are blasting Astroids left and right with their weakest guns. Not to mention Jango Fett destroyed astroids much bigger than him with a single seismic charge.

TheGreenGoblin
03-14-2006, 10:11 PM
Not to mention that several times in ST they state that it would take almost their entire Photon Torpedo load to destroy a Hollow astroid.

Just to clairfy, it would take the entire torpedo supply of the E-D to destroy that asteroid.


Yet in Star Wars they are blasting Astroids left and right with their weakest guns. Not to mention Jango Fett destroyed astroids much bigger than him with a single seismic charge.


Weakest? I think you're pulling things from thin air on that one. The only time I can recall asteroids being destroyed were by Jango Fett's charges and Star Destroyer turbolaser batteries, neither of which I think are considered to be the Star Wars universes' weakest weapons. In fact I seem to remember TIE Bombers strafing asteroids in TESB and they seemed to hold together just fine.

MistenTH
03-15-2006, 04:21 AM
Sometimes, it's really difficult to compare. Simply because the people who created these universes did so to explore certain issues and ideas, not from a mathematical and engineering standpoint. Some ships or events or weapons are created just for the awe factor, and can be really weird. Case in point, look below.

1 'Light' Turbolaser: 1.25 x 10^16 W

1 'Heavy' Turbolaser: 8.4 x 10^20 W
(Note that each shot from this turbolaser would require the perfect annihilation of 9000 kg of matter)

1 Galaxy Class Type X Phaser Strip: 4.17 x 10^15 W

1 Sovereign Class Type XII Phaser Strip: 7.08 x 10^15 W

1 Defiant Class Type X Phaser Strip: 7.00 x 10^16 W

Strength of Defiant Class Pulse Phaser Cannons: Unknown
However the following implies that its damage is extraordinarily high.

Quote: "On her first active mission the Defiant faced a group of Dominion Attack Ships; these vessels had successfully withstood several minutes of fire fighting with a Galaxy class starship, but Defiant's phaser cannon cut through their shields within moments." - ditl.org (Canon, TV Series source)

Depending on which ship as you take as a standard, if you take the defiant, which weighs in at an astounding 171 metres, it has ridiculous firepower that can annihilate ships much larger than itself.

And about the Asteroid issue, the Intrepid-Class Voyager destroyed a space station (see the difference in sizes) with only 2 Tri-Cobalt devices.

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/1307/gcaretakerarray27kq.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gcaretakerarray27kq.jpg)

Throw in other movie facts such that 1 Tactical Officer controls all the weapons on a Federation Trek Ship, and that guns are operated by gunnery crews in SW (ROTS Episode 3, Falcon Turret ANH Episode 4), and it gets kinda difficult to make meaningful comparisons this way.

So, as it's been said, gameplay balance > not properly thought out fantasy universe 'realism' (for both universes)

Admiral Sith
03-15-2006, 02:39 PM
I go with weakest guns, because they were chasing a ship that they really wanted, so wouldnt it make sense to save the energy for those guns? Not to mention that their is no reason to use heavy weapons when light ones will do the job just as well. And i agree with the above statement.

TheGreenGoblin
03-15-2006, 06:04 PM
I go with weakest guns, because they were chasing a ship that they really wanted, so wouldnt it make sense to save the energy for those guns? Not to mention that their is no reason to use heavy weapons when light ones will do the job just as well. And i agree with the above statement.

When was this?

The Star Destroyers were clearing the asteroid field so as not to suffer a collision, I see no reason to use weaker weapons here.

I'm assuming you're talking about the TIE Bombers. To be honest if the Falcon had its shields down and a bomb landed on it, the strength of that explosive wouldn't have mattered, the ship would have been destroyed. It's a plot hole.

Fact is you're making an assumption here with no evidence.

ScorLibran
03-15-2006, 06:29 PM
Star Trek has its own equivalent of the Death Star: the Genesis device. They could just fly up to Coruscant or Yavin IV with it in a cloaked Bird of Prey. The planet's occupants wouldn't know anything about it until...they'd been transformed into base molecules. At least they could see the Death Star coming.

As I see it...

ST advantages: cloaking devices, transporters, better sensors, better firing arcs and much more advanced android technology. (ST's best: Data. SW's best: C3PO? R2D2?)

SW advantages: the force, huge battleships, more powerful "normal" weapons, better/more diverse ground units and Jedis/Siths.

It'd seem like a game balance nightmare, but awesome if someone could make it work.

(Oh, and we all know James T. Kirk would lay the smack down on Vader and Obi-Wan.)

:)

Admiral Sith
03-15-2006, 07:12 PM
You forget that Star Wars weapons have a much larger range, in SW close range is 10km or more and in ST they have to be practically on top of eachother. Also SW ships have weapons scattered all over their holes, so they can cover more angles. Plus Transporters are unreliable and ST ships take years to go across one section of the galaxy while SW ships can Hyperspace across the entire galaxy in weeks.

ScorLibran
03-15-2006, 08:45 PM
Transporters have always been portrayed as safer than driving a car is for us today. In the history of Star Trek, there's been one transporter accident that I'm aware of. There have likely been others, but even so, in ST people are transporting with every breath, almost. Transporter technology is shown as being very reliable even from the earliest days.

Do any ships in SW have dead spots in their firing arc? I thought I recalled my Victorys and Star Destroyers having to turn slightly to fire on a ship directly behind them. If so, that's an advantage for ST...their starships almost always have 360 degree weapon coverage.

SW definitely has a range advantage. In ST they're always talking about how long it'd take to get from alpha quadrant to delta quadrant, while a SW ship could do it much, much faster. (This assumes the far, far away SW galaxy is something close to the size of the Milky Way).

The most important tactical advantage of ST is cloaking devices. In SW I've never seen them portrayed as having anything like an invisible ship. How would they deal with that? Unfortunately, SW ships seem to ALWAYS have their shields up. Otherwise it'd be easy for a Romulan ship or a Klingon Bird of Prey to pull up alongside one, quietly transport troops over and start sabotaging systems. Why shoot at something that you can disable, or blow up from the inside?

And if you use Data, then no Stormtroopers could stop him. Only a Sith Lord could do that, but even he couldn't beat the transporter.

"Captain I am done here, and there is a strange, tall man wearing a black suit and helmet walking towards me. Please beam me up."


(By the way...I'm starting to play devil's advocate here. I'm quite sure the hardware from the completely-fantasy Star Wars universe could seriously wipe out that of the mostly-based-on-current-science Star Trek universe. I just like defending/playing the underdog. :) )

TheGreenGoblin
03-15-2006, 08:46 PM
^^^
Same on the devil's advocate thing. ;)


Plus Transporters are unreliable


Actually they are pretty reliable, only things like shields and some kind of interference can screw them up (outside of mechanical failure: VERY RARE).

I THINK I remember them breaking through shields with transporters by boosting the signal or diverting more power or something like that. Might be mistaken there.

Admiral Sith
03-15-2006, 10:33 PM
Could Data really take on a thousand Stormtroopers? Also SW shields always have their shields up do to the huge number of micrometeorites traveling through space that can cause tremendous damage to a ship. Which brings me to the question of why the inferior ST technology can somehow protect them from micrometeorites without any form of protection?

Taurian
03-16-2006, 03:30 AM
star trek ships use there main deflector for the purpose of moving micrometeorites from their path. thats why all of those ships have that blue dish thing pointing forward. its not so much a shield as a "repulsor" beam of sorts. read it in a tech manual when i was a kid....sorry.

bigbrother25
03-16-2006, 06:35 AM
I would prefer a complete Star Trek Mod. The war of the Dominion versus the Federation is a big one, also the early Romulan-Earth-War or the Klingon-Romulan war can be a good theme.
For me it is not a good idea off bringing both together.

bigbrother25
03-16-2006, 06:44 AM
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
.
.
.
star destroyers are better than the Enterprise
Take that you stupid Ewoks!


Sorry, man, but which Enterprise? I think that a battle between a Star Destroyer and the Enterprise E would give us only one option, who is winning that battle:
The Enterprise!
Why? Much faster, much better Shields and of course a much better Captain!
Also they can bring in troops via the transportersystem to damage the Destroyer from inner side.
A second point for the Enterprise: The speed and the 360į-shooting range. No "Black point"! So just set the Enterprise behind a Destroyer to kill the Engines and the Destroyer is history. The small Ties are really not a problem for the phasers even if they have no shields!

MistenTH
03-16-2006, 07:55 AM
Sorry, man, but which Enterprise? I think that a battle between a Star Destroyer and the Enterprise E would give us only one option, who is winning that battle:The Enterprise! Why? Much faster, much better Shields and of course a much better Captain!

That's going to be subjective, and not really convincing. But I agree that the E-E is small enough to hide in a SD's blind spot, and it has sufficiently heavy weapons to severely hurt the SD. The transporters may not work - the SD does have shields.

Which brings me to the question of why the inferior ST technology can somehow protect them from micrometeorites without any form of protection?

All Trek ships mount a deflector dish that sweep all such objects from the path of travel, and coincidentally deflect laser beams away from the ship as well. However, I believe that SW ships 'lasers' are actually concentrated plasma, so they would not be affected (Romulan ships mount Plasma torpedoes).

Anyways, without the need to raise the shields all the time, Trek ships can save a lot of energy.

Also SW ships have weapons scattered all over their holes, so they can cover more angles.

Romulan and Klingon ships will lose to SW ships in this regard, as they have a lot of front mounted weaponry. However, SW ships also suffer a similar problem - how many mount weapons in their rear arc?

Federation ships do not have this problem. Look at their designs. There is little blockage of weapons due to the hull design. Phaser banks are arranged in strips around the entire saucer section, and even the engineering section. Many specifically mount TORPEDO tubes in the rear arc. In short, most Federation ships have a 360 degree x 360 degree (full spherical cover) field of fire.

SW definitely has a range advantage. In ST they're always talking about how long it'd take to get from alpha quadrant to delta quadrant, while a SW ship could do it much, much faster

Case in point, you can't assume that SW is in a milky-way sized galaxy. It's never stated. Whereas it's obvious in ST that it's in the milky way. The SW galaxy could be smaller for all we know. At any rate, SW is more involved in story telling, and in bringing amazing scenarios closer to us [Systems instead of countries! Rodians, Twi'leks, Hutts instead of Asians (human), Europeans (human), Mongols (human).]

You forget that Star Wars weapons have a much larger range, in SW close range is 10km or more and in ST they have to be practically on top of eachother

How do you know this? In all movies, TV series and such, SW and ST, ships are practically on top of each other. Would you want to watch a battle scene in which the ships never see each other? That would be boring.

And technical manual or no technical manual, it is impossible, if you give it a thought, for ships to engage at ranges under 10 km. The International Space Station orbits earth at 7.5 km per SECOND. Imagine ships at combat speeds. They'd be covering LARGE distances even while 'dogfighting'. The only way ANY space combat could take place at close range, regardless of SW, ST or universe would be if the combatants didn't use their engines after matching similar speeds.

Also on firepower, take note that all Federation Capital Ships, with the exception of the Akira, Defiant and somewhat the Sovereign, are all designed for deep-space and long-range EXPLORATION. That's right, the famous Galaxy-Class E-D is actually an exploratory ship, a massive 'scout' if you would.

---

Some Federation Fleet numbers.
Number of Capital Ships Pre-War: 8726
Number of Capital Ships lost in 2 Year Dominium War: 5800
Capital Ships remaining after Dominium War: 4116

Size of Federation
Core Worlds: 150
Total Worlds: 15 000, at least.
Size of Territory: 8000 Light Years Across (stated by Picard in 1st Contact)

---

Imperial Fleet Numbers (Around Battle of Yavin)
Star Destroyers: 20 000

Size of SW Galaxy - Unknown
Size of known SW Galaxy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Republic_%28Star_Wars%29
"The New Republic is a mutual self-protection pact among over four hundred sapient species, and an economic partnership between eleven thousand inhabited worlds."

--Chief of State Leia Organa Solo

The New Republic can be considered smaller than the Empire, and it's a more believable number. Some estimates place the Empire at the size of 1 million worlds. With this number of 11000 inhabited worlds, that's roughly 2 SDs to guard each major world, with more important planets (Coruscant, Corellia, Kuat) having more ships while others (Tatooine, Aldivy) would have none.

Given the territorial and fleet sizes, the battles may be barely manageable by the Federation. The Empire simply cannot afford to empty all their systems of ships just to squash the federation. Pirates, the Rebels, warlords and such would gobble up the Empire if it did so.

One telling scene is in ROTJ, where even to crush the main Rebel Fleet, the Emperor, even with excessive estimates, brought in less than 20 SDs.

Admiral Sith
03-16-2006, 08:54 AM
He didnt need to, the fleet was only their to keep them from escaping. The DSII did a wonderful job of blasting them. Also the Enterprise almost always uses a single Phaser blast, so they can fire at the ship or at the 72 TIE Fighters and some bombers chasing them. Photon Torpedos wouldnt really trouble the ships shields, and it would be to much of a waste to use them against TIE Fighters.

But in a case like this Balance > Realism, so lets stop flooding his thread with this.

TheGreenGoblin
03-16-2006, 09:29 AM
Also the Enterprise almost always uses a single Phaser blast, so they can fire at the ship or at the 72 TIE Fighters and some bombers chasing them.


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2381/gremannemesis15xc.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gremannemesis15xc.jpg)


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9914/gfltvalley47cm.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gfltvalley47cm.jpg)

Three60
03-16-2006, 10:43 AM
He did say almost always...

MistenTH
03-16-2006, 11:18 AM
The 1st pic is in Nemesis, in which the E-E used multiple phaser blasts practically throughout.

The 2nd pic is a generic Galaxy-Class attacking a dominium ship during the Dominium War, and could be taken to be quite common.

Also, more cases of multiple phaser fire:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/4948/multiplephaser18ow.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/3756/multiplephaser20kr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3017/multiplephaser34mv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1159/multiplephaser43hs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

On a side note, each emitter is capable of firing individually, just that it'd be pretty weak. Fed ships presumably prefer to fire a main beam at a time for concentrated firepower. But since TIEs won't take much to destroy, a Fed ship will still be able to fire a reasonably strong blast at a SD and still knock out fighters. Also, if a Fed ship was to fire all its several thousand emitters all at once, that would make for a pretty light show.

ScorLibran
03-16-2006, 11:47 AM
Could Data really take on a thousand Stormtroopers?
He wouldn't have to, as he'd generally find ways to avoid having to face a thousand of them. Super smart + super sneaky + super fast = not ever having to face a massed enemy.

Seems like the best strategy for a Star Trek fleet against Star Destroyers - beyond using the Genesis device to annihilate everything in the area - is to stay directly behind it and blast away until the ISD's shields are down, then transport over Starfleet marines to face off with the stormtroopers, and a few special forces guys to sabotage the ship, then fall back to do the same to another enemy ship.

The catch is to avoid other enemy ships from covering the rear of the one you're attacking, as face-to-face one or two ISDs or Mon Cals could blow the hell outta most ST ships.

What would also be fun in a ST/SW mod - with the Federation against the Empire - would be a race between the development of the Genesis device and the Death Star.

MistenTH
03-16-2006, 01:31 PM
The Ultimate Superweapons - The Asteroid Maker and the Ultimate Daisy Farm (yes the Genesis device causes primordial life to begin)

jedi3112
03-16-2006, 04:03 PM
StarDestroyers can cover all arcs. If you played TIE fighter you probably noriced the turrets on the back and top of the bridge. Also when considering who would win when talking about StarDestoyers against enterpises there are several of both.

There's the Victory StarDestroyer VSD both 1&2
There's the Imperial StarDestroyer ISD both 1&2
There's the Super (couldn't they think of a better name than that) StarDestroyer SSD
There's the Sovereign StarDestroyer SSSD (I think)
There's the Eclipse StarDestroyer

Enterprise NX-1;as well ad the normal one and A to E

Best SW droids 3PO and R2? I don't think so there's emkay (XWA), HK-47 (KOTOR), several bounty hunters etc.

Now let's get back to modding

I don't know if transporters can be done in EAW, no boarding and therefore I don't think it has any purpose. Only think it could do though is the landing of ground forces, but maybe not the big stuff.

The ST torps are somewhat different from the SW torps, that may be difficult. Main difference is that the ST torps are launched by big ships whereas SW torps are launched by small ships. I think that you'll need to mdofy the shields/torps to keep all torps out and while you're at it give them the proper colors (haven't figured that part out yet) Proton torps are blue not orange, Concussion missiles are orange, they don't look like the ones in-game.

Admiral Sith
03-16-2006, 04:17 PM
Also about the SW ranges its in several books, heres a quote from Dark Nest III The Swarm War

Then clawcraft from the two trailing squadrons began to drop down to meet them. They seemed to be moving in slow motion, since atmosphere even this high was thick enough to slow down a starfighter and tear it apart if it maneuvered too sharply. But the distances were also smaller--dozens of kilometers instead of hundreds--and within a few heartbeats, the dark specs of the first Chiss fighters came into view and began to rain cannon bolts down on the StealthXs.

and the fact that TIE Fighters travel 1200 km/h which is 20 Km a minute. and common sense. If a 1.6km ship and a 1.2 km ship are within 8km of eachother they have a HUGE chance of crashing.

Three60
03-16-2006, 04:44 PM
You know, the tech to teleport isn't in SW, so the shields on the SD wouldn't have the power to block them. So just teleport some guys in and take out the shields, some more to take out other things, and just fire proton torpedos at the command deck and the engines. The rest is still there, but it isn't going anywhere.

I just want to see Picards face when he gets pulled out of warp from an Interdictor, then having a huge fleet destroy it.

Admiral Sith
03-16-2006, 05:08 PM
You do know that lots of highly trained Stormtroopers guard every vital component? Not to mention that when ST happens SW tech would have had thousands if not millions of years to advance?

TheGreenGoblin
03-16-2006, 09:09 PM
^^^

Well for the sake of debate I think it's clear that we're talking about Galactic Empire vs. Federation.

Anyway, I think stormtroopers> Fed Security so I'm not to keen on the prospect of boarding a Star Destroyer. If they can somehow manage to punch a hole in the shields I suppose they could transport photon torpedoes on board, which I imagine would do a good bit of damage. Of course the problem is breaking through those shields in the first place. ;)

ScorLibran
03-17-2006, 12:21 AM
Anyway, I think stormtroopers> Fed Security so I'm not to keen on the prospect of boarding a Star Destroyer.
True, but Klingons > Stormtroopers. :)

Also, Federation marines were never really portrayed to any extent in the TV shows or movies, but in the old game Star Fleet Battles - and in a few others since - they're portrayed as tough, well-trained and well-equipped hombres.

But again, pure-fantasy > based-on-the-laws-of-current-science when it comes to military conquest, so that'd be a crux of game balance between the two in an EaW mod. One that could be accommodated, though, I'm sure.

Admiral Sith
03-17-2006, 05:58 AM
If you think ST is based on the laws of Science, your definatly wrong. Its not even the most realistic sci-fi show on television.

* The gravitational field of a star would not cause time travel.
* Black Holes do not magically suck everything in, but can be orbited.
* They constantly use the wrong units, such as units of power instead of energy.
* The configurations of mass/energy required for warp drive require large amounts of negative-energy matter to be present.
* The gravitic space-time distortions required by warp drive would not propagate fast enough to make the idea worthwhile.
* Tachyons are widely described and discussed in Star Trek. In Star Trek, they are described as a peculiar type of particle which always travels faster than light. However, unless something has happened within the last 5 years, no one has ever detected a tachyon. They are a mathematical possibility, not a confirmed physical phenomenon. Furthermore, tachyonic matter simply refers to matter which travels faster than light- there need not be any particular type of particle which exhibits this behaviour- the superluminal speed itself is what defines the tachyonic nature of something.
* If shields in ST worked like they are supposed to, they would render the ship invisible
* There is no way the ship can be transparent while retaining the ability to see its surroundings. This is because you cannot receive photons, or any other information-carrying particles, without intercepting those particles. If you intercept a particle, you alter its properties. This is a fundamental problem, and it cannot be resolved. A cloaked ship should be blind, just as it is invisible.
* Hundreds of times in TNG Picard orders the vessel to turn off its impulse engines, and appears to "stop". However, there is no such thing as a "full stop" in space. A full stop would be the achievement of near-zero velocity, but with respect to what? The galactic plane? It is spinning. The nearest system? That's pretty arbitrary. The nearest planet? That's even more arbitrary. The fabric of space-time itself? It's moving too. The location of the Big Bang? If you stop with respect to the origin of the universe, you will be travelling at incredible speed relative to the Milky Way galaxy and everything in it.
* Time travel is completly impossible. Time travel paradoxes occur often in science fiction, and they generally lead to the conclusion that it must not be possible to travel back in time and affect history. Yes, I know, there are a lot of silly sci-fi explanations for this, such as "the act of time travel creates an alternate timeline" etc, but they're almost worse than the paradox itself. Some scraps of dialogue suggest that time travel in Star Trek subscribes to this "alternate timeline" idea. If this is the case, then new universes are being spawned constantly, and an infinite number of "parallel universes" may exist. This is frankly silly, since it suggests that whole universes spring into being each time someone time travels. But it appears to be the Trek belief structure, since numerous episodes have revolved around these "parallel universes," and in fact, "Parallels" involved an accidental merging of parallel universes where 285,000 Enterprise-D's all appeared in the same place. These stories verge on the ridiculous- even a timeline which has diverged from our own hundreds of years ago is somehow presumed to miraculously develop in such a way that the same handful of people end up in the same place in the present, although with different backgrounds. The more Star Trek explores time travel, the less credible it becomes.
* On maximum setting, a Type II hand phaser can vapourize a 50kg adult female (eg. "Vengeance Factor"), or an 80kg adult male (dozens of incidents), without any excess energy in either case. If it carries enough energy to vapourize an 80kg adult male, then where does the extra energy go when it vapourizes a 50kg adult female? Why doesn't it excavate a crater under the victim's feet?
*Phasers have recoil and momentum sometimes, but not other times. A phaser hit can occasionally lift someone right off his feet and throw him backwards, but other times, someone like Jake Sisko can hold a phaser rifle awkwardly in one hand and fire enough blasts to cause a cave-in, without any noticeable recoil at all.
*Phasers have heating effects sometimes, but not other times. A phaser can be used to heat a rock or vapourize a small quantity of material, but when it vapourizes a person, the effect is non-thermodynamic (conservation of energy is not conserved, conservation of mass is not conserved).
* . No vaccine will ever make your body immune to radiation, any more than it can allow you to walk into a blast furnace, shrug off a baseball bat to the head, or bounce bullets off your chest. Radiation "Vaccines" are located in several episodes.
* Q? Im not even going to start
* Not to mention all the times they are close enough to a Star to easily destroy them, yet they stay alive for hours.

MistenTH
03-17-2006, 06:27 AM
Also about the SW ranges its in several books, heres a quote from Dark Nest III The Swarm War
Admiral Sith, the books aren't too reliable and vary a lot. Also, read my post. A TIE fighter travelling 20km/minute is SLOW. Our low-tech INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION travels at 450km/minute.

From Rogue Squadron:
A sharp squeak from whistler alerted Corran to the Warspite's arrival (considered long range). "Great, eleven klicks aft."

"Sir, our lasers are zeroed at 250 metres, which is a little short for ground attack missions."

"Ships have to close to two and a half klicks to get a firing solution for a proton torpedo..."

StarDestroyers can cover all arcs. If you played TIE fighter you probably noriced the turrets on the back and top of the bridge. Also when considering who would win when talking about StarDestoyers against enterpises there are several of both.

Games are not the best source of canon data. In the Jedi Knight Series, you have the heroes destroying hundreds of dark Jedi AFTER balance is brought back to the Force.

A few fighters can blow up a capital ship in Rogue Squadron etc.

---

And on how reality based Trek is, I quote myself.

Sometimes, it's really difficult to compare. Simply because the people who created these universes did so to explore certain issues and ideas, not from a mathematical and engineering standpoint.

On your point on shields, this is from the TNG technical manual. On a side note, I have no idea what it means, but it implies that the shields are 'smart', and seems to imply gravitational and spatial effects that probably won't render the ship invisible. (whee Technobabble galore)

"The shield system provides the modern Starship with its principle protection against both violent natural phenomena and enemy weapons fire. Most shield systems are composed of highly focused spatial distortions which contain an energetic graviton field. The shield itself is projected by a set of transmission networks located on the hull of the ship; when matter or energy strikes the shield, field energy is concentrated at that point to create an intense localized spatial distortion."

"Impacts on the shield cause Cerenkov radiation to be released, often perceived as a flash of colour which "lights up" the shield, rendering it briefly visible. To an observer it appears that the intruding object bounces off the shields - in fact the spatial distortion becomes so great that the path of the object is radically altered, and to an zero dimensional observer on the incoming object it appears that it is the starship which has suddenly changed location while his/her course is unchanged"

ScorLibran
03-17-2006, 12:19 PM
If you think ST is based on the laws of Science, your definatly wrong.
As I said, it's science fiction based on real science. Energy generation by matter/anti-matter collision; impulse drives - which are either fusion or ion drives - the latter of which we just sent to Pluto not long ago; even transporters have roots in modern science theory.

Believe me, much of Star Trek is based on current scientific knowledge. By comparison, the "force" is practically religion. And religion made real > theoretical science any day of the week. The latter has bounds, the former does not.

Here's some more info...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1213_021213_tvstartrek.html
http://ssdoo.gsfc.nasa.gov/education/just_for_fun/startrek.html

The second article summarizes Star Trek as a mix of real and imaginary science. And that's my point. "Based on real science" means a combination of what we have today and much of what we speculate we'll have tomorrow based on the advances we're making today. After all, handheld computers were laughably imaginary in the days of the first computer...but existed as intelligent speculation based on real science.

Oh, and a few years ago we discovered the planet "Vulcan" (http://scifi.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=scifi&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.space.com%2Fscienceastronomy%2 Fastronomy%2Fepsilon_vulcan_000804.html), so that's one more "Star Trek advance" we've made. :)

Admiral Sith
03-17-2006, 02:28 PM
As i have said before, lets stop hijacking this mans thread please?

ScorLibran
03-17-2006, 07:36 PM
Don't be mad. We're on topic: How to achieve story faithfulness and feasible game balance in a SW/ST mod.

Admiral Sith
03-17-2006, 08:55 PM
No, this is a poll about whether or not people like the idea. This is totally off topic

ScorLibran
03-17-2006, 09:12 PM
So basically this comes down to "tweaking up" the entities in the Star Trek universe to make it comparable to the one of Star Wars in order to have any semblence of game balance. Right? Sounds like it's going to take some straight out fudging of the ST specs to make this turn out the way people would want.

The alternative would be to "tweak down" the entities in the SW universe. And I'm sure no one wants that. :)

MistenTH
03-17-2006, 09:49 PM
The fact we're talking about balancing SW and ST without degenerating in flame wars indicates that we are very interested in this mod. Lots of ideas here for the mod maker to pick out too.

Admiral Sith
03-17-2006, 10:09 PM
We were spirling, and its still off topic.

ZeJudge
03-20-2006, 09:27 AM
I think its a good idea, im going to start creating the models for it now.
If anyone needs any help in making the mod, give me a shout,
email or msn: Jon2002uk@hotmail.com

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/project_Ship.JPG

MistenTH
03-20-2006, 10:21 AM
What ship is that?

The nacelles and engineering section are too thick though no matter the fed ship. Try making em thinner.

Guusje
03-20-2006, 10:34 AM
i *think* its a Galaxy Class but it doesnt seem to be entirely right

TheGreenGoblin
03-20-2006, 12:12 PM
Looks closer to an Intrepid class

ZeJudge
03-21-2006, 01:03 PM
Look! It doesn't matter! lol,
I'm trying...
Im new to modeling, just getting the hang of things, you know. I'm getting better ;)

ScorLibran
03-21-2006, 01:28 PM
If you're new to modeling, then that's a good start!

Just try getting some good still pics of Star Trek ships and working on scaling, dimensions and detail.

Cheers! :)

ZeJudge
03-26-2006, 09:28 AM
Hey, ive started creating new models, tell me what u think:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/sabre_1.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/sabre_2.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/sabre_3.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/Mammouth.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/HoverMRLS_1.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/2nd.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/2nd_1.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/enterprise_1.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/enterprise_2.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/enterprise_3.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.savery/enterprise_4.JPG

TheGreenGoblin
03-26-2006, 10:48 AM
Nice work!

wswordsmen
03-26-2006, 11:13 AM
The first ship is good, and I don't recognize anything till the enterprise D which I think the warp nacelles are two long. Other than that great work.

Admiral Sith
03-26-2006, 12:22 PM
The Nebula and Sovereign at the end are nice

KhaosNite
03-26-2006, 12:42 PM
The Nebula and Sovereign at the end are nice

I think ill corect you on those.

The 1st two Enterprise models are Galaxy class, and the last 2 models of Enterprise is the NX-Class (ENT series)

oh and ZeJudge, IMO, when you taking your screenshots of your ST models, it might be best to name it with the CLASS of ship it is, since their are a dozen names a class can be christened (Like USS Enterprise, USS Voyager..etc).

For a bit of help with choosing your ships for the ST side, id suggest going here (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/index-starships.htm)

My choices would be to add for sure:
- Sovereign
- Intrepid
- Defiant
- Prometheus

Admiral Sith
03-26-2006, 02:31 PM
Ah thanks for the correction

KhaosNite
03-26-2006, 04:24 PM
Ah thanks for the correction

Well, the NX-Class is only 225m, and the Soverign is nearly 685m, so big difference there in size; nearly 3 times the size., plus the NX-Class has 6 Decks, A-F, while Soverign has 24 decks.

THAT is why trekkies are a big help here. :D They can give a lot correct information pertaining to many things, like what i just mentioned.