PDA

View Full Version : Possible expansions or sequals?


starmark2k
09-24-2005, 11:19 AM
yeah i know the game is still months away from release but from the various forums i've been to alot of people intend to buy it. If i know this then Dev teams must know so they are proberly already thinking about possible Expansions and sequals. so form what we know about the game what Expansions do you think there will be and do you think there will be a sequal and when will it be based?

Personally i don't think they will make a 'Republic at War' based around the clone wars, instead i think they will make a 'true' sequal or expansion and bace it after ROTJ.

popcorn2008
09-24-2005, 11:34 AM
I want an expansion that takes us beyond Return of The Jedi and show us a time that only the books cover. Maybe they can even consult Lucas as to what he wanted the after RoTJ period to look like.

Naja
09-24-2005, 12:24 PM
Uhhh...let's bring Lucas in only if it's absolutely necessary! I've seen what the man can do to movies; let alone to video games.

popcorn2008
09-24-2005, 02:23 PM
Good point there haha. Yeah he does have a tendency to kinda screw things up slightly... even though the whole star wars concept was his idea lol

El Sitherino
09-24-2005, 02:41 PM
Uhhh...let's bring Lucas in only if it's absolutely necessary! I've seen what the man can do to movies; let alone to video games.
"Wah, Lucas ruined my star wars".

Grow up. :p

Jan Gaarni
09-24-2005, 02:46 PM
Nah, I found the comment very amusing and to the point. ;)

Naja
09-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Well, the fact of the matter is, the man can't write dialogue or plot. What his strength is, and always was, was directing, and imagining the raw concepts of his world. These are the reasons that the original trilogy ruled, and the prequel trilogy was God-awful (Episode 1), sub-par (Episode 2), and tolerable/kinda good (Episode 3): the original trilogy was basically imagined and directed by Lucas - he only glancingly participated in the dialogue, and only supplied the skeleton for the plot stories. It's no coincidence that The Empire Strikes Back - the best by far - had a dialogue that he didn't even touch, at all. Contrast this with the weaker Prequels, in which Lucas had complete dialogue and story-writing control. Blehhh. Compare the love scenes in Attack of the Clones to the love scenes in The Empire Strikes Back.

I'm not sure if EaW will even have a sequel, honestly, or even need one. For one, the logical sequel material - which would naturally be in the Clone Wars era - is already being made in a popular fan conversion mod: Imperial Assault 2. For two, if they play their cards right with EaW, it will become like one of those iconic Blizzard games, like Starcraft or Diablo II - one of those addictive, moddable, different sorts of games that are still popular 5-10 years after they were made; a lucrative cash cow for our dear friends at Petro. Besides, I'm sure that after they gain major noteriety for EaW, their driving desire will be branch out into other projects, and not merely to cower behind their first design.

Darth Andrew
09-24-2005, 04:16 PM
...if they play their cards right with EaW, it will become like one of those iconic Westwood games, like Command and Conquer - one of those addictive, moddable, different sorts of games that are still popular 5-10 years after they were made...Fixed. ;)

Jan Gaarni
09-24-2005, 04:18 PM
Don't go around fixing too much, Andrew. :)

Blizzard is a perfectly good example.

Sithmaster_821
09-24-2005, 08:57 PM
...if they play their cards right with EaW, it will become like one of those iconic Ensemble games, like Age of Kings - one of those addictive, moddable, different sorts of games that are still popular 5-10 years after they were made...

Now its truly fixed. ;)

Seriously, if E@W catches on like any of the previously named games, I will be very very happy.

My prediction is they do the sensible thing and do a Clone Wars x-pack. But, in the galaxy mode, it would lead to awkward situations. Who would control the Coruscant? The Emps or the Reps? How would the Empire or the Rebellion even fight one another? I guess they could do a timeline sort of thing, so that the Republic turns into the Empire, but even that wouldnt work, since elements of the Confeds and Reps went to both sides. Maybe you get an announcement that Palpy has declared himself Empereor and killed all the Jedi and a group of Jedi/Senators are fighting him, which side will you chose?

Darth Andrew
09-24-2005, 09:01 PM
Don't go around fixing too much, Andrew. :)

Blizzard is a perfectly good example.Meh, I'm just a big fan of the Command and Conquer series.:D

Naja
09-24-2005, 09:10 PM
The Clone Wars pretty much "ended" when Palpatine was ready for it to end. But there was a definate end to it -before- the Republic became the New Order. I assume that the (Republic) campaign would end in the same manner as the movies: the eradication of all Seperatist forces, and if there was a cutscene, maybe it would show Palpatine's little Senate speech.

"Ordnum mus sein!"

Oops, wrong speech. Similar leader, though...

Sithmaster_821
09-24-2005, 09:16 PM
Yep. He's also vaguely Napoleanic.

I was thinking more on the scope of things outside of the campaign. The x-pack would be no fun if it were divided completely between two different storylines.

Naja
09-24-2005, 11:59 PM
Napoleanic?? Howso?

We don't see him crafting any revolutionary liberal law codes, nor did he become a dictator (ironically) in the name of liberty. Besides his Sith conspiracies, he was your run-of-the-mill wartime demagogue, who used people's fear to coax them into his authoritarian vision of government with the promise of "safety" and "order."

Darth Windu
09-25-2005, 12:17 AM
In regards to Lucas and the post-RotJ time frame I have a few things to say.

1. The Prequel triology is better than the Originals. Yes, I know most of you are old farts but really, A New Hope and Return of the Jedi are far worse than The Phantom Menace could ever be.

2. There is no post-RotJ. The thing is, Star Wars is about one thing - the life story of Anakin Skywalker and the events surrounding his life. Simply put, after his death there is no more story.

El Sitherino
09-25-2005, 01:31 AM
The Empire Strikes Back - the best by far - had a dialogue that he didn't even touch, at all.
I think you have your facts mixed up. But this isn't the place for this debate.

Head over to the Star Wars section.

popcorn2008
09-25-2005, 03:27 PM
In regards to Lucas and the post-RotJ time frame I have a few things to say.

1. The Prequel triology is better than the Originals. Yes, I know most of you are old farts but really, A New Hope and Return of the Jedi are far worse than The Phantom Menace could ever be.

2. There is no post-RotJ. The thing is, Star Wars is about one thing - the life story of Anakin Skywalker and the events surrounding his life. Simply put, after his death there is no more story.
In responce:

1. This is really a matter of opinion. I do like the prequels but, only ep. 3 has a chance of surpassing the originals, at least in my opinion. Two was good, but one wasnt. I think some elements of one were good, but it wasnt great.

2. There is a post RotJ.... look at the novels, and video games such as the Jedi Knight series. You really cannot make this argument because George Lucas himself has approved some story lines that take place after RotJ. For example the New Jedi Order books. Now to be honest I hate this series with a passion, but it is still George Lucas approved. And you have to remember it is his Star Wars, he can do whatever he wants.

Naja
09-25-2005, 05:30 PM
In regards to Lucas and the post-RotJ time frame I have a few things to say.

1. The Prequel triology is better than the Originals. Yes, I know most of you are old farts but really, A New Hope and Return of the Jedi are far worse than The Phantom Menace could ever be.

2. There is no post-RotJ. The thing is, Star Wars is about one thing - the life story of Anakin Skywalker and the events surrounding his life. Simply put, after his death there is no more story.


1. Huh? Episode 1 was just a sci-fi children's movie ("Oh, how cute! It's Jake Lloyd!"). How on Earth can the prequels be better than the originals? Quality acting (Harrison Ford, Mark Hammil, Carry Fisher) + original dialogue + graceful storytelling = great film. Mediocre acting (Jar Jar? Hayden Christensen) + contrived, hokey dialogue + contrived, hokey storyline = practically the entire prequel trilogy. Even Revenge of the Sith - which was pretty decent, except for Lucas' abominations that he had the audacity to write as love scenes - pales in comparison to something as engaging as The Empire Strikes Back, or hell, even Return of the Jedi.

2. Star Wars is about a universe. Aren't you forgetting the original trilogy's centering on Luke Skywalker, and not Anakin? Even then, it wasn't simply about either of the Skywalkers; Lucas primarily wrote, and succeeded very well in writing, a good vs. evil story set in a science fiction universe. Magnifying it to one particular character would be just like saying Middle Earth is about hobbits, or Star Trek is about Klingons.

As for your Latin, laws are not silent in a time of war. ;) We still have rights, regardless of what Bush and Alberto Gonzales fantasize about.

Sithmaster_821
09-25-2005, 08:50 PM
Lucas mentioned in an interview that he was going for a cross between Napolean and Cesaer.

lukeiamyourdad
09-25-2005, 10:50 PM
Naja/popcorn- I sincerely pray for your souls. You don't **** with Windu simply because you can't **** with him. He's un****able.
When you try to **** with him, he drags you down to the depths of evil and you will lose your sanity against his "arguments". Your souls are at stake, your sanity is at stake, you don't want to lose it!
Run fools!

Naja
09-26-2005, 12:34 AM
*runs, laughs*

Darth Windu
09-26-2005, 06:44 AM
popcorn - yeah it is obviously a matter of opinion, as are all things. I just like the prequels more but then I never really got into the originals.

Naja - I know that Lucas has approved a post-RotJ universe, and yeah, the OT does focus more on Luke than Anakin. However, the entire saga really is about Anakin - it begins with his 'discovery' on a backwater planet and ends with his death. Incidently, Star Wars is Fantasy, not Sci-Fi.

Also, you're the first person to comment on the latin - well done :)


Luke - you know you love argueing with me. BTW that post of yours is mighty funny when you substitute various words for the ****.

starmark2k
09-26-2005, 07:10 AM
popcorn - yeah it is obviously a matter of opinion, as are all things. I just like the prequels more but then I never really got into the originals.

Naja - I know that Lucas has approved a post-RotJ universe, and yeah, the OT does focus more on Luke than Anakin. However, the entire saga really is about Anakin - it begins with his 'discovery' on a backwater planet and ends with his death. Incidently, Star Wars is Fantasy, not Sci-Fi.

Also, you're the first person to comment on the latin - well done :)

Luke - you know you love argueing with me. BTW that post of yours is mighty funny when you substitute various words for the ****.


Star wars was origanally suppose to be made up of 9 episodes but as GL left doing the prequals for so long Episode 7- 9 are never going to be made unless someone else tries to do it (Although this is unlikly). So how can all of star wars be about anakin if Vader/anakin dies in episode 6, It's more acurate to say that it's about the skywalker family line. Also Star wars is Sci-fi hense all the strships, Even the force has a Science fiction element to it with the symbiotic Metacloreans(SP). So it is more Sci-fi than Fantasy.

Anyway this has become way off topic and should be discussed in the Star wars movie forums... This is about the E@W's possible Expansions and sequals.

Jan Gaarni
09-26-2005, 07:41 AM
Because there's almost 20 years between Ep. 3 and 4 that can be told. ;)

popcorn2008
09-26-2005, 05:14 PM
Naja/popcorn- I sincerely pray for your souls. You don't **** with Windu simply because you can't **** with him. He's un****able.
When you try to **** with him, he drags you down to the depths of evil and you will lose your sanity against his "arguments". Your souls are at stake, your sanity is at stake, you don't want to lose it!
Run fools!
Why didnt you warm me ahead of time!!!??!?!?! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Sithmaster_821
09-26-2005, 08:50 PM
I second Luke. There isnt a person in the world who isnt more stubbornly sure of their ideas than Windu, and, on one level, I have to admire that.

Although, from personal experience, it does get annoying.

anton_138
09-26-2005, 10:40 PM
well, to butt into where i wasn't invited, i will just say that anyone who has read the original Star Wars book (which, for those who did not know, was actually ghost-written by Dean Foster, who has written the books for many movies and wrote "SW:Splinter of the Mind's Eye" sometime between ANH and ESB) knows the way the SW universe turned out is NOT the way it was originally described. the intro stated that the emperors (plural) were mere figure heads controlled by the moffs, whereas it ended up with there being only one emperor who happened to be a Sith Lord... certainly no puppet for the politicians. and since the original title was Star Wars: from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, or something along those lines, i'd say it was originally about Luke and not Anakin.

now, as for the topic of expansions, i've been waiting patiently for a NJO/Vong game, and i think EaW would work excellently for that. imagine taking Kyp's Dozen and the Errant Venture and kicking some serious Vong butt, as long as you can get your shadow bombs past their dovin basals. New Republic troops with the Solo kids fighting Vong soldiers with amphistaffs and thud-bugs. and being able to play as the Vong would be something else. they were SO different from the known SW universe that a NJO/Vong game might appeal to more non-SW gamers. the only other SW game/format i'd like to see use the Vong would be KotOR, which would then be KotNR i suppose, but this thread's about EaW... and of course the issue of whom SW is all about. basically i think everyone's a little bit right, in the sense that it was simply about the rise and fall of Palpatine and the involvement of the Skywalker bloodline throughout.

Darth Windu
09-27-2005, 12:59 AM
anton - you're right, Star Wars has changed a great deal. After all, the main character was going to be something like 'Luke Starkiller' and the final battle in ANH was going to be on Yavin IV between the Empire and a Rebel/Wookiee alliance.

starmark - yes, there was going to be episodes 7-9, but Lucas has repeatedly said that they are moot, because he only ended up needing the six films to tell the story that he wanted.

On the topic of Sci-Fi or Fantasy, the big difference here is details. For example, in Star Trek we are always given specifics, how fast 'warp' is, how many torpedoes are carried by each sort of ship, people have to reload their guns to continue firing. In Star Wars though, it isnt like that (the books are, but not the films). In the SW films, it doesnt matter how soemthing works, only that it does. For example, how many times have you seen a soldier or character in a SW film reload?

anton_138
09-27-2005, 02:09 AM
another good SW era for an expansion pack would be the time of Exar Kun, the Sith Wars, and the Mandalorian Wars (before the Sith were limited to 2 members by Darth Bane) so both sides would have a nice selection of Jedi heroes. besides, maybe it will encourage more info about the early Sith to be released/created. it's funny, i never cared for history class in school, but after reading about 100 SW books the histories of SW characters and worlds kinda grew on me. :-p

Naja
09-27-2005, 11:02 PM
This is slightly off topic, but a part of Star Wars history that hasn't been visted at any point - in the movies, video games, comic books, or novels - is the founding of the Republic.

anton_138
09-27-2005, 11:12 PM
true, Naja, but for some reason i'd hate to think of game developers, instead of actual sci-fi/fantasy authors, writing the earliest of SW history. absolutely no offense meant to any game developers who may read this!

Naja
09-28-2005, 12:29 AM
I wonder what happens after the Dark Nest, too. I mean, ****, you could go indefinately into the Star Wars future.

anton_138
09-28-2005, 02:31 AM
yeah, Naja, after reading about 100 SW books you realize you've gone from being a fan to being a junkie, always waiting for your next fix. i never got a chance to read the comics/graphic novels (expensive, and hard to find in used book stores), though, or most of the newest Clone War books, so i know there are a lot of factions and major events i don't know about aside from references in the novels, but from what i do know there is a lot of untapped potential for EU games...

... and if you think about it, many of the successful SW pc games are more EU than movie based, like SotE, the JK series, X-Wing Alliance. the impact of the SW movies didn't wasn't from the movies alone, but the franchise that came with it, and ever since the SW RPG (old D&D style with paper and dice) and the early LEC games like Dark Forces came out gamers, in one form or another and of all ages, have tried to keep not just interest in the movies alive but the SW universe itself through the books, comics, games, etc...

so, i guess my point is i would like to see LEC do something with all the great things that came outside the movies, like an RPG of Han Solo's early years based on the 2 trilogies, or a Sith Wars era FPS/JK game, or an expansion pack or mod for EaW pitting the New Republic against the Yuzzhan Vong and possibly finding a way to utilize one of the 40+ (is there an official planet count yet?) planets as Zenoma Sekot.

but, of course, we don't yet really know how the gameplay will be and what sort of mod changes will be possible... although i'll be the first to admit i don't know anything at all about modding (aside from a little map work) but i've seen some mods that really surprised me, and if there's a worthy innovative mod to be made (like the MOW2 mod for JK) someone will figure out how to make it... and George bless them for it!

Darth Windu
09-28-2005, 03:02 AM
anton - actually, the Exar Kun era or the founding of the Republic would be horrible choices for an x-pac. Not because they're uninteresting, but simply because they wouldn't fit into a game of Empire vs Rebels. The best x-pac would be Republic vs Confederacy, because it would then span all four films and give greater depth to the game, but otherwise a Yuuzhan Vung x-pac would be the next best option, and frankly, it isnt a good one.

Naja
09-28-2005, 03:57 PM
Ehh, have an open mind. The Sith Empire v. the Republic could be very compelling, if done right in the EaW model. You'd simply have to give much more of an emphasis to Force-users, to get that sort of Old Republic mythos feeling going.

Besides, any half-wit could do a Clone Wars remake. It would be too predictable. Now, pre-Republic or post-New Republic...now that would be ballsy.

popcorn2008
09-28-2005, 04:39 PM
I would rather have a clone wars expansion that a Vong expansion because for the most part I really hate the new jedi order series. I personally dont consider it true to Star Wars even though it may be licensed by Lucas. I still would also like a post Star Wars x-pack.

anton_138
09-28-2005, 05:23 PM
*spoiler* - (NJO series spoiler in this message, for those who've not read it)
well, Popcorn, all i can say is Lucas may have created the SW universe and all, and as far as the movies he definitely contributes greatly, but as far as the books (remember, Lucas has never actually written a SW book, or any fiction book that i know of, only storyboards and screenplays for movies) and especially games he has very little input, so does that make it all un-true to SW? the original SW book isn't even true to the SW universe that George has produced over the decades. still, if LucasFilms considers the mojority of storylines and information from the books to be canon or historical then i can consider it to be true to SW.

*spoiler here* - in the NJO series, Lucas had very little involvement, but he was the one who decided Anakin Solo would be killed instead of Jacen or Jaina, as well as Chewie being killed instead of some of the other classic characters like Han...
*end spoiler*

so, i think the NJO series is as true to SW as any other non-movie book. it's just very different from the typical SW themes and concepts, but then again Grand Admiral Thrawn and Admiral Daala don't exactly fit the Imperial framework as is generally excepted in SW... i mean, would Palpatine REALLY have allowed an alien and/or a woman to become high-ranking Imperial officers, regardless of how well they were tucked away in the Outer Rim or the Maw?

but, then again, if you just didn't like the NJO stories, characters, and such then you are certainly entitled to your opinion and THAT is not an arguable point. so, which post-RotJ era/storyline would you like to see as an x-pack or mod?

lukeiamyourdad
09-28-2005, 05:23 PM
Ehh, have an open mind. The Sith Empire v. the Republic could be very compelling, if done right in the EaW model. You'd simply have to give much more of an emphasis to Force-users, to get that sort of Old Republic mythos feeling going.

We don't want hero(or in this case, just regular unit) powers micromanaging to be the main focus. They rarely make good games like that, especially if you want it to be epic.

Besides, any half-wit could do a Clone Wars remake. It would be too predictable. Now, pre-Republic or post-New Republic...now that would be ballsy.

Lucasarts =/= balls

And I happen to agree with Windu. The world will now implode.

lukeiamyourdad
09-28-2005, 05:26 PM
so, which post-RotJ era/storyline would you like to see as an x-pack or mod?

How about none? :dozey:

People, in general, would much prefer a game about the Clone Wars then anything post-RoTJ.

anton_138
09-28-2005, 05:34 PM
while the Jedi heroes in Rebellion certainly had an edge over standard troops, there wasn't a whole lot of management involved with them. other than the specific "Jedi Training" mission with Luke or Vader the benefit of the Jedi were their skills increased drastically more than other agents. however, i haven't seen (which doesn't mean it hasn't been said) anything from the dev's stating that character/hero abilities will improve with experience like they did in Rebellion.

it may very well be that trying to make a bunch of Jedi in EaW would be as bad, or worse, than trying it in Battlefront. i'm a major Jedi fan, but even i can admit not every SW game has to be about Jedi and the Force. i'd just like to see more EU sources being tapped instead of everything revolving around the movies. sooo...

Darth Windu... are there any non-movie eras, factions, storylines, etc that you think would make a good x-pack or mod, or do you agree with LIAYD?

lukeiamyourdad
09-28-2005, 05:42 PM
Darth Windu... are there any non-movie eras, factions, storylines, etc that you think would make a good x-pack or mod, or do you agree with LIAYD?

Trust me, the only one who is more anti-EU then Windu would be Vostok. And that's saying a lot as Vostok is the God of Star Wars purism.

The only era I would even consider is the pre-prequel era, between the Sith and the Republic. Why? It was popularized by KotOR and looks and feels enough like the movies to be popular among casual Star Wars fan. Hardcore and EU fans might want something like the Yuuzhan Vong, but such an x-pac would hit a tiny niche market. It would simply not work.

anton_138
09-28-2005, 06:42 PM
The only era I would even consider is the pre-prequel era, between the Sith and the Republic. Why? It was popularized by KotOR and looks and feels enough like the movies to be popular among casual Star Wars fan. Hardcore and EU fans might want something like the Yuuzhan Vong, but such an x-pac would hit a tiny niche market. It would simply not work.

i must be confused again... you think the Old Republic would be almost considerable, because it was popularized by KotOR, an EU based game, but you think any other EU based game would be inconsiderable because it wouldn't be popular with casual SW fans? it seems by that logic KotOR, SotE, X-Wing Aliance, and the entire JK series should've failed entirely, because they were all based around characters and events unfamiliar to casual or non-SW fans... or maybe i just don't get your meaning.

but, there could simply be a New Republic x-pack starting from the end of RotJ... the NR against the Imp Remnants would be familiar enough, right?

FroZticles
09-28-2005, 06:51 PM
Kotor series was a mixture of the warped reality called EU and also had a feel of the movies. And Kotor is EU even with a hint of movie feel no matter which way you slice it.

lukeiamyourdad
09-28-2005, 10:36 PM
Let us remember what every one of the games you've mentionned have given us:

Jedi Knight:

-You fight against the Empire and later the Imperial remnants. You face sith, dark jedi, reborns, killer androids.

SoTE:

-You fight gangsters and the Empire.

X-Wing Alliance and all the other flight sims:

-You face rebels, imperials and pirates.

KoTOR:

-You face the forces of the Sith. You're a Jedi fighting masked sith soldiers ressembling stormtroopers. Your allies are the Republic forces, who strangely look like rebel troopers from ANH.
You encounter Tusken Raiders, Hutts, Jawas, droids, wookiees, etc.
Your main enemy are the lightsaber wielding Sith warriors.

A potential NJO game:

-You face the Yuuzhan Vong, a bunch of overzealous bio-tech warriors, who are immune to the Force.


See the difference? Like Froz mentionned, although KotOR is indeed EU, it retains the Star Wars feel to it.

Darth Windu
09-28-2005, 11:09 PM
Naja - it's not that I think an Old Republic vs Sith RTS would be a bad idea, just that it wouldn't be suitable for EaW. Afterall, you'd then be spanning thousands of years between the factions - I mean, really, would anyone want to play an RTS where the main civs are the Soviet Union, United States, Ancient Greece and Ancient Persia? I think not.

anton - I pretty much agree with LIAYD in that if they were going to produce a non-Clone Wars EU RTS, the Old Republic would probably be the best one. We're a bit familiar with it from KotOR and wouldn't suffer from the over-mining of the other EU timeframes. I should also point out that as a big KotOR fan, I would be really interested in playing some of the big battles while Reven is going on his/her journey.

lukeiamyourdad
09-28-2005, 11:17 PM
I mean, really, would anyone want to play an RTS where the main civs are the Soviet Union, United States, Ancient Greece and Ancient Persia? I think not.


*cough*RoN*cough*

Naja
09-29-2005, 03:19 AM
As for whether a Vong situation deviating too much from canon would jeoporadize any sequel game, I would disagree. Making a quality game is the ultimate priority. That being attained, hiding behind canon is the last thing you should lose sleep over.

I mean, Christ - there's nothing wrong at all with branching out of an original story that everyone knows. Deviation from the two trilogies does not inherently make a bad story or game. What is this (painfully subjective) "Star Wars feel" you so describe, anyway? Is it dependant on the enemies you face? Because that so far is the only distinction you have made.

Personally, I feel that something captures the Star Wars feel if it...takes place within the Star Wars universe?? Is a traditional good v. evil conflict? The Vong are merely a radical new enemy that doesn't conform to lightsabers, or force lightning, or Death Stars; it is still taking place within that world Lucas gave the spark to.

Darth Windu
09-29-2005, 06:27 AM
luke - yes, but when you fight someone in RoN they are at the same level as you are. However, would you really be interested in using US M-1 MBT's to fight Greek Hoplites?

Naja - but the whole point about the YV is that they are radical. Let me show you a little list of sides in Star Wars

Rebellion - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force
Empire - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force
Confederacy - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force
Republic - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force
Old Sith - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force
Old Republic - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force
Yuuzhan Vang - uses lightsabre-resistant snakes, bioships that make black holes and are outside the Force

Notice any differences?

The problem with the YV is that they don't conform to the 'reality' of the Star Wars universe. Biotechnology is certainly well within these boundaries, but snakes and crabs that stop lightsabre's? I don't think so. I should also point out that even if their Coralskippers could generate black holes, they would be instantly destroyed by them. Finally, it has been pointed out many times in the films that EVERYTHING is a part of the Force, even rocks. To have an enemy that is outside it then is just stupid beyond belief.

lukeiamyourdad
09-29-2005, 08:52 AM
I mean, Christ - there's nothing wrong at all with branching out of an original story that everyone knows. Deviation from the two trilogies does not inherently make a bad story or game.

There is nothing wrong with branching out. What someone has to be careful with is how they branch out.

As Windu pointed out, the Yuuzhan Vong are outside of the reality of Star Wars.
They are something far from what Lucas gave spark too.

The NJO is the most controversial part of EU. They tried to make the Yuuzhan Vong supplant the Empire, even the Sith, as the greatest enemy the Galaxy ever faced. I find that utterly ridiculous. This is my opinion about the NJO, so let's put that behind.

Back to the Star Wars feel. Star Wars was among the first sci-fi movies (that I know of) that involved humans fighting humans. Good men vs bad men. This contributes to the Star Wars feel.
There's also the big battles between gigantic starships with laser blasts everywhere ( la Endor).
Finally, it involves Jedi from the Light Side of the Force fighting Sith from the Dark Side.
This is only for me and what I could think up in a few minutes. I'm sure that if I spent more time thinking about it, I could find out more.

Making a quality game is the ultimate priority.

I don't know what 8x8 world you live in, but their top priority is to make a game that sells. Making a game involving the Yuuzhan Vong would not sell very well. Especially in the form of an RTS.
I've heard a lot from NJO fans and what they like about the serie are actually the characters, which I can't really disagree with them.
An RTS does not bring good characterization. The Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't get anything more then a short intro. People would come in, sit down and try to play as them, wondering what they have to do with Star Wars.

anton_138
09-29-2005, 01:43 PM
well, i think this NJO debate is pretty one-sided, since it seems neither Windu nor LIAYD actually know the series. here's why i DON'T think NJO is too far outside of "normal" SW...

the Vong do have weapons/armor resistant to lightsabers, but that is nothing new... being KotOR fans you know about cortosis ore, which has been refered to several times throughout the SW novels. the means don't seem that vital, to me, as long as they are sticking to or elaborating on an existing concept... so, cortosis or coral, there's not a huge difference, is there? and as far as that goes, the effects of cortosis in KotOR is not true to the way it was described in the book. wasn't Luke's first encounter with cortosis with Mara Jade in the Thrawn Trilogy, when they were trying to sneak into an Imp stronghold? originally, cortosis actually shorted out/shut down lightsabers, not just acted as some kind of damage resistant shielding, so KotOR is far from what i'd call canon, but i don't expect games to be since there's often some sort of storyline control in SW games.

the issue of Vong vs SW technology is moot, because what IS sci-fi if not the introduction of technology which does not yet exist? that's what seperates sci-fi from simply fiction, right? and seeing as how the Vong tech is not from the SW galaxy, it makes since that it would be vitally different. if aliens actually landed on your front lawn, would you expect their tech to be just like ours, or would you expect them to have found different means to a similar end? again, the means are
different but the effect is the same. SW has hyperspace engines and hyperspace, the Vong manipulate gravity so they are basically "pulled" around instead of "pushed," but the effect is the same. gravity manipulation compensates for their self-imposed lack of technology, including their "shields" which are described as miniature artificial black-holes created by genetically engineered creatures... odd, yes, but a LOT of SW is odd like that, right?

and, to ruin it for anyone who has never read NJO, and those who appearantly never would, the Vong were NOT outside of the Force! that was the big mystery of the series! they were originally Force capable, until they got so out of control that they were eventually cut-off from the Force on a genetic level (you could say they were given midichlorian blockers, but who'd want to say that... damned midichlorians), the effect being not too different from an ysalamiri, which has been in SW as long as cortosis, Mara Jade, and TIE Defenders. not to mention a few JK games, right? in the end of NJO, all of this was explained, the mystery solved, the war over, and the Vong actually discovered they COULD reconnect with the Force (the true Palpatine-like Vong leader was even Force capable throughout the entire series, it just wasn't known), so the argument that all things must be in the Force was enforced completely in NJO.

the Vong were used to supplant the Imps in, in the since that the Empire was gone and someone had to be the bad-guys. also, the Vong gave a good opportunity to bring the Rebs and Imps back together, ending with not a New Republic but a Galactic Alliance, bringing the galaxy almost full-circle since Palpatine's orchestrated rise. so we see that politically the NJO series shares some mindset with traditional SW. saying they replaced the Sith... well, maybe in a sense, but from the original SW book, was there any mention or hint of the Sith? the Emperor in the book was not even a Sith, as he was described as a powerless figure-head for the Moffs. the thing with SW canon is Lucas can change anything at any time, like he did with the whole origin of Boba Fett. does this mean everyone should dump on the Bounty Hunter Wars or whatever books talk about Jaster Masteel (misspelled, i'm sure), the journeyman Protector who would become Boba Fett after being exiled from his homeworld, just because Lucas decided, after many years, to ignore that and make Fett a clone of the original Fett?

maybe some people object to NJO because they killed Chewie? well, that struck a nerve with me, but Lucas gave the personal thumbs-up on that one, and it's his world, right? at least Chewie went out the way a bad-@$$ Wookiee should, fighting to the very end against all odds, even if all he could do was yell and shake his fists at the moon crashing down on him. if you just don't like NJO for some reason, that's great, no problem, but don't act like nobody else likes it or would like it because it's "not Star Wars".

maybe NJO would make an awful x-pack/mod for EaW, maybe not, but i think Naja and LIAYD are both right in that: yes, a well-made game is the key to a successful game, despite the details; and yes, the main point of any company/product is to make money. in the SW franchise there have been several games which kept the SW details but lacked appeal to gamers, like Rebellion or FoCom, and were in the end
not very successful. and there have been games like KotOR which only follow SW in the sense that it has the same or similar factions, but most of the KotOR "canon" is based on the Sith Era graphic novels, since no real Sith novels have been written, right?

i personally think an NJO RTS game would bring in a bit of StarCraft diversity to the SW gaming franchise... besides, a sequal to EaW could even allow more than 2 factions, allowing not just the NewRep/GalAll and Vong, but also the Remnant Imps and the Human League.

expand your minds, people... don't just try convincing others to limit theirs. still, a good debate is still a good debate, and a good debate doesn't come from people agreeing too much, so no hard feelings on this end, and i'd never say your opinions are wrong (except jokingly), only some of your "fact-based" arguments.

Jan Gaarni
09-29-2005, 02:44 PM
at least Chewie went out the way a bad-@$$ Wookiee should, fighting to the very end against all odds, even if all he could do was yell and shake his fists at the moon crashing down on him.
Heh, that made me chuckle. :D
:thumbsup:

anton_138
09-29-2005, 03:18 PM
yeah, Jan, it may have been as effective and fruitful as trying to get a point across on message-boards, but at least he gave it his all... still sucked, though. when i read it i had to put the book down and let it soak in, because i knew that was that and he wasn't coming back and if i couldn't accept that then i'd never get past the whole "denial" stage of his loss. in an interview at the end of the last NJO book, they said Salvatore had received threats from fans who didn't like him killing of Chewie, and it really upset him, but the truth is it was Lucas's decision, and last i heard he still owns the rights to SW and the fans don't. i've never been totally disappointed in SW (though a little in the prequal films), but i have been disappointed in some so-called SW fans. Rest In Peace, Chewie... you are missed.

lukeiamyourdad
09-29-2005, 03:50 PM
the Vong do have weapons/armor resistant to lightsabers, but that is nothing new... being KotOR fans you know about cortosis ore, which has been refered to several times throughout the SW novels.

Truth is, I frown upon their use in KotOR. However, they're a necessary evil.
Within the D20 system, there's a magic weapon and a regular weapon. The lightsaber is the magic sword, the cortosis plated swords are regulars.
They only put those in so that melee wouldn't be unexistent without lightsabers.


the issue of Vong vs SW technology is moot, because what IS sci-fi if not the introduction of technology which does not yet exist? that's what seperates sci-fi from simply fiction, right? and seeing as how the Vong tech is not from the SW galaxy, it makes since that it would be vitally different. if aliens actually landed on your front lawn, would you expect their tech to be just like ours, or would you expect them to have found different means to a similar end?

This is where your perception of Star Wars is quite different, where most people don't understand a simple thing. The Galaxy in which Star Wars is situated, is not considered like a galaxy, but rather like a planet and each planet in that galaxy, a country.

In other words:
Galaxy=Planet
Planets=Countries

The idea of aliens invading another galaxy can be used to make a parallel with Martians invading Earth. Earth=Galaxy, Mars=Vong Galaxy.
Now, what exactly is the problem with that? Simple, it's such an old and overused concept of science fiction that it simply feels out of place in Star Wars. Star Wars isn't aliens vs humans, not martians vs earthlings. It's humans vs humans.

again, the means are
different but the effect is the same. SW has hyperspace engines and hyperspace, the Vong manipulate gravity so they are basically "pulled" around instead of "pushed," but the effect is the same. gravity manipulation compensates for their self-imposed lack of technology, including their "shields" which are described as miniature artificial black-holes created by genetically engineered creatures... odd, yes, but a LOT of SW is odd like that, right?

Nope, a lot of Star Wars doesn't involve such an odd thing as black hole shields. A lot of things the EU came up with is extremely weird, while the movies make some more sense. Nonetheless, this is a question of opinion on the oddity.

Also, a question of different means but same effect cannot apply. If I use a medieval sword and kill a man, it's the same as if I use a bayonnet on my M1 Garand right?
See, the effect is the same, some got killed by a sharp weapon, yet it's out of place. You would never accept medieval swordsmen fighting a battalion of WWII US soldiers.

and, to ruin it for anyone who has never read NJO, and those who appearantly never would, the Vong were NOT outside of the Force! that was the big mystery of the series! they were originally Force capable, until they got so out of control that they were eventually cut-off from the Force on a genetic level (you could say they were given midichlorian blockers, but who'd want to say that... damned midichlorians), the effect being not too different from an ysalamiri, which has been in SW as long as cortosis, Mara Jade, and TIE Defenders. not to mention a few JK games, right? in the end of NJO, all of this was explained, the mystery solved, the war over, and the Vong actually discovered they COULD reconnect with the Force (the true Palpatine-like Vong leader was even Force capable throughout the entire series, it just wasn't known), so the argument that all things must be in the Force was enforced completely in NJO.

Ah well, good to know, still a lame concept. (Which was re-used for the KotOR Rakatan but the Force actually had an effect on them).
I don't believe that the ending about Yuuzhan Vong being force capable being an enforcement of that fact during the whole serie but more the result of some Star Wars fans calling it a total heresy to say that they were outside the Force. They then crafted an explanation to appease the mobs.

the Vong were used to supplant the Imps in, in the since that the Empire was gone and someone had to be the bad-guys. also, the Vong gave a good opportunity to bring the Rebs and Imps back together, ending with not a New Republic but a Galactic Alliance, bringing the galaxy almost full-circle since Palpatine's orchestrated rise. so we see that politically the NJO series shares some mindset with traditional SW.

In my mind, after Endor, the Alliance won, they lived happily ever after, the end.
All the rest is fan fiction.
Writers only created an after RotJ world because some fans are never happy with an ending where not everyone and everything dies and creation undoes itself.
They'll always wonder what happened to x character. Do we really need to know? Absolutely not, but LEC saw a need and took a chance. Some of the post RoTJ EU came out good, a lot didn't.

saying they replaced the Sith... well, maybe in a sense, but from the original SW book, was there any mention or hint of the Sith? the Emperor in the book was not even a Sith, as he was described as a powerless figure-head for the Moffs.

No, I read the book and indeed the Sith aren't mentionned.


the thing with SW canon is Lucas can change anything at any time, like he did with the whole origin of Boba Fett. does this mean everyone should dump on the Bounty Hunter Wars or whatever books talk about Jaster Masteel (misspelled, i'm sure), the journeyman Protector who would become Boba Fett after being exiled from his homeworld, just because Lucas decided, after many years, to ignore that and make Fett a clone of the original Fett?

Yes. Obviously, he's the one who holds the rights to the serie and movies come first. Boba Fett is the clone of Jango Fett. End of story.

maybe some people object to NJO because they killed Chewie? well, that struck a nerve with me, but Lucas gave the personal thumbs-up on that one, and it's his world, right? at least Chewie went out the way a bad-@$$ Wookiee should, fighting to the very end against all odds, even if all he could do was yell and shake his fists at the moon crashing down on him.

No, I didn't really mind that much. It was a stupid way to kill him but it's not why I hate the NJO.

if you just don't like NJO for some reason, that's great, no problem, but don't act like nobody else likes it or would like it because it's "not Star Wars".

Actually, an NJO game would have to be aimed at the mainstream audience to make money. You can't aim to make money when your game is about a small niche in the Star Wars fandom. So, nobody would like it outside of the NJO readers.
The thing is the NJO is simply the most controversial piece of EU. People hate it with zeal or love it with equal fanaticism. However, a game like E@W featuring the civs from the movie, which one of those side would hate it? None.


i personally think an NJO RTS game would bring in a bit of StarCraft diversity to the SW gaming franchise... besides, a sequal to EaW could even allow more than 2 factions, allowing not just the NewRep/GalAll and Vong, but also the Remnant Imps and the Human League.

Star Wars =/= StarCraft

Like I said before, this is one world. It's like the french fighting the british during the napoleonic wars. They had similar forces.


expand your minds, people... don't just try convincing others to limit theirs.

Actually, you are trying to limit my mind to accepting the NJO. I do the same, but I don't berate others for doing it. It's part of a debate.

Jan Gaarni
09-29-2005, 03:52 PM
yeah, Jan, it may have been as effective and fruitful as trying to get a point across on message-boards, but at least he gave it his all... still sucked, though. when i read it i had to put the book down and let it soak in, because i knew that was that and he wasn't coming back and if i couldn't accept that then i'd never get past the whole "denial" stage of his loss. in an interview at the end of the last NJO book, they said Salvatore had received threats from fans who didn't like him killing of Chewie, and it really upset him, but the truth is it was Lucas's decision, and last i heard he still owns the rights to SW and the fans don't. i've never been totally disappointed in SW (though a little in the prequal films), but i have been disappointed in some so-called SW fans. Rest In Peace, Chewie... you are missed.
They are all dead anyway, cause it's happening a long time ago. :)

Question is, how did they die, not when will they die.
In my mind, after Endor, the Alliance won, they lived happily ever after, the end.
All the rest is fan fiction.
And that's just what it is: your opinion.
But in the end it's official Star Wars.
There's nothing you can do about that. And there's nothing I can do about that.
We can block it out, deny it for our own reasons.
But we can't force others to think the same.

We can't even really debate if we don't consider it official.

anton_138
09-29-2005, 03:54 PM
excellent point!

popcorn2008
09-29-2005, 05:38 PM
Personally I agree with Luke on this one. The NJO books seem to go way against star wars. And the major part of it that makes me angry is the fact that they try to make the Vong the "biggest" threat the galaxy ever saw. In my opinion the Empire or the Sith would and should be the biggest threat. The Vong also seem to ruin the whole star wars universe, like Coruscant. They totally obliverated the planet which makes me upset. Coruscant is one of those planets I never want to see in ruins. Also the Vong dont fight with conventional Star Wars technology. All in all, I dont like the idea of a Vong expansion at all.

Jan Gaarni
09-29-2005, 06:01 PM
Didn't they just terraform Coruscant and made it lush and green again?

FroZticles
09-30-2005, 05:12 AM
I like EU some of it is really good and fits in well. I don't mind the whole NJO series its interesting. Since most Star Wars games are EU I don't see the big deal.

Darth Windu
09-30-2005, 10:43 AM
Didn't they just terraform Coruscant and made it lush and green again?
But thats everything thats wrong with the NJO. I mean really, on Earth we have a lot of different ecologies, but in Star Wars there is only ever one per planet. I mean-
Tatooine = Desert
Geonosis = Rocky
Kamino = Oceanic
Kashyyyk = Jungle(?)
Endor = Forest
Mustufar = Volcanic
Utapau = Sinkhole
Naboo = Plains
Coruscant = Cities

To then transform Coruscant into a non-completely convered city is going againt SW.

I should also point out that LIAYD is right in that SW ends with Ep6. Anakin is dead (no more sotry) but also, the Sith are defeated, and balance has been brought to the Force. Look at the films, EVERYTHING that happens is part of the battle between the Forces of Good/Light (Jedi) and the forces of Darkness/Evil (Sith). Once that battle has been decided, as it is in RotJ, thats it.

Oh yes, finally Anton was saying that the Vong were part of the Force, they just couldn't feel it. However, that doesn't explain why the Jedi couldn't feel them through the Force or affect them with the Force.

One more thing - SNAKES THAT STOP LIGHTSABRES!!!

Jan Gaarni
09-30-2005, 11:12 AM
I didn't like the ruining of Coruscant, that's just too big.

But there's nothing I can do about that. It happened, and what's done is done.

I'll restate:
You can't argue with the official policy.
Nor can you go against it.
The official policy is not a matter of personal opinion.

You can deny it ever happened in your head, but you'd be at a disadvantage in a debate.

popcorn2008
09-30-2005, 03:14 PM
I didn't like the ruining of Coruscant, that's just too big.

I agree, I also believe that it is way to big on scale. I never denied it happening though. But that doesnt mean ill be content and just accept it... its just that it is highly upsetting. Thats why I choice to ignore NJO as part of the EU. Personally I think as soon as the empire was dead, say after the novel Vision of the Future, Star Wars was done. I think they only made the NJO because:

1. They wanted to continue Star Wars EU, and had to make up something totally against the principles of Star Wars so they could get people intereasted. But in doing that they never thought they would also make people who hate it.

2. They made the Vong oh so bad so they could extend their conquest out for a huge span of novels not just the usua 1, 2 (Hand of Thrawn) or 3 (Thrawn Trilogy, Jedi academy trilogy).

The main thing with NJO is like LIAYD said you either love it a whole lot, or hate it eternally. I hate it eternally. I think its too far fetched and to be honest, ruined a great universe. But to go back to our topic, I dont think it would do justice to the EaW engine to make a Vong expansion. I would prefer a Clone Wars expansion.

Admiral Sith
09-30-2005, 05:07 PM
I love it a whole lot :)

too far fetched
Come on, the whole Star Wars series is far fetched. I say an expansion about NJO would be a great idea. Come on you just dont like NJO cause its to realsitic.

lukeiamyourdad
09-30-2005, 05:35 PM
Come on you just dont like NJO cause its to realsitic.


Even the most hardcore NJO fans never said this...

popcorn2008
09-30-2005, 06:50 PM
Come on you just dont like NJO cause its to realsitic.
It may be realistic for say Star Trek, but it stands out akwardly for Star Wars. I mean the whole plot of the Vong invasion reminds me of something Star Trek would do, or should I say did? It reminds me quite a bit of Deep Space Nine, when the Dominion (hey anouther alien race from a different galaxy...) invades the galaxy the federation, klingons, and romulans are in, among other races.

NJO is about the most unrealistic piece of star wars fiction i have ever read, at least for the Star Wars galaxy.

Darth Windu
10-01-2005, 06:09 AM
popcorn - quite true, although the Dominion are from another part of the same galaxy, not a different one. However, for all intents and purposes it was cut off from the Federation/Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians/Ferengi. I never thought about it before but you are right, the Dominion War is very similar to the NJO - I wonder if thats where the EU authors got their ideas from...

Jan Gaarni
10-01-2005, 06:42 AM
Yeah, that's what I thought too, Windu.
In the Star Trek universe, they haven't explorered their whole galaxy yet, in fact they haven't explorered more than a quadrant I believe (maybe 2, but that is tops).

general ackbar
10-01-2005, 02:34 PM
they will probably make a clone wars expansion

Naja
10-01-2005, 02:37 PM
Actually, the Dominion War was my favorite part of Deep Space Nine. Prior to it, DS9 was somewhat of another hokey, technobabbling Star Trek rendition. But after it began, the show started becoming very political, and me like that.

popcorn2008
10-01-2005, 05:08 PM
Actually, the Dominion War was my favorite part of Deep Space Nine. Prior to it, DS9 was somewhat of another hokey, technobabbling Star Trek rendition. But after it began, the show started becoming very political, and me like that.
I liked the Dominion Wars, i just dont like how the NJO copied its concept. Or seemed to anyways...