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Windu Chi
10-22-2005, 02:23 AM
I want to know if any one want to keep that old stupid D20 combat system or a more realisted jedi experiance. :lsduel: :lsduel: :lsduel:

Achilles
10-22-2005, 02:26 AM
The first two games were d20. I don't think they'll risk alienating their fan base by switching to another system.

spinkle
10-22-2005, 02:28 AM
i heard rumors they were planning to switch to Jade Empire's combat system...is that also D20?

Windu Chi
10-22-2005, 02:33 AM
i heard rumors they were planning to switch to Jade Empire's combat system...is that also D20? No Jade Empire is free will you do all the work not the computer. :lsduel:

RedHawke
10-22-2005, 02:46 AM
I agree with Achilles! :)

I absolutely hate WotC and their D20 system, but it is the system for KOTOR and it's sequels, to do otherwise would be sheer folly! ;)

No Jade Empire is free will you do all the work not the computer. :lsduel:
Incorrect, though you do have some combat options like combos and defence, and control over your PC's postition, it is still a turn based RPG combat system.

Vladimir-Vlada
10-22-2005, 07:15 AM
Keep the D20. But dedicate SERIOUS effort and work on it REALLY HARD to improve it.

spinkle
10-22-2005, 09:33 AM
i didn't like the d20 when i first started playing kotor, but i developed a fondness for it after i reached a certain level of familiarity. jedi knight-style realism works fine for FPS with ranged weapons, but lightsaber/melee combat is far too much of a headache unless they were to improve on jedi academy by leaps and bounds. d20 offers more deliberate control and allows combat to move at a far less hectic pace...and, as achilles said, it's now a part of the kotor experience. if they retained it unchanged, i wouldn't complain.

fresnosmokey02
10-22-2005, 12:14 PM
They must keep the D20 system. You can't change something as fundamental to the KOTOR experience and keep the same feeling in the game.

stingerhs
10-22-2005, 12:22 PM
well, i'm still not quite so sure as to why some people don't like the combat in Kotor. it was simple and elegant. so it wasn't a button mashing affair like JA or JO, what's the big deal?? no elegance, and you hardly had any control over exactly what you were doing when hacking away with your lightsaber.[/rant]

Vladimir-Vlada
10-22-2005, 12:32 PM
well, i'm still not quite so sure as to why some people don't like the combat in Kotor.
Woah! Hold on a moment.

Let's look at this fact: The only thing I ever did for KOTOR is praise it's melee system which I just want a bit improved (new animations and so). The only thing that I really complained about the combat was the Ranged system, which was bad.

The Melee system is excellent in KOTOR, and it should be just a little more tweaked and improved.

And before you start defending the Ranged combat system, here's an advice: DON'T defend it. You'll lose your valuable time and energy. The Ranged combat in KOTOR is JUNK; plain, simple, accurate and efficent. :xp:

Kain
10-22-2005, 02:21 PM
D6 says Kain. d20 works for D&D and D&D alone.

Kensai
10-22-2005, 03:06 PM
D20 system, just because ease of use. It's good to know you can beat your opponent, but leaving it in the hands of the user just means you'll get n00bs dying all the time. "Ish soooo pr0, I need hacks, yadda yadda..."

The story is the key to Kotor aslong as that is correct the D20 system should remain for me personally.

Darth_Terros
10-22-2005, 03:46 PM
D20 all the way

the system is perfect for a RPG which is what Kotor is theres no need to go fiddling with the combat!

If its not broke dont fix it!

i really dont understand why people want the saber flailing combat of JKA the combat really was elegant in Kotor every hit connected

oh as for the range combat being crap i really dont see it? i've had great fire fights using it!

BattleDog
10-22-2005, 04:47 PM
D20 bothered my until I actually bought KOTOR. If you think about it real combat is turn based. If the other guy lunges you parry, if the other guy shoots you duck

If you both lunge or shoot at the same time there's a good chance you both leave feet first.

Aleggy
10-22-2005, 05:44 PM
ok the combat in kotor or tsl were never week points not everybody liked it but that doesnt bother me to much as it would be boring if everybody was the same, however i am bored of continuous threads discussing the matter its almost as agravating as coming on these boards and finding 'another' wich lightsaber do you use thread/poll. However this doesnt help the arguement so i'll add this titbit the d20 combat system is part of kotor so i dont mind seeing it in kotor 3 but if it evolves to a higher functions as long as it still feels kotorish i wont mind that to but remember obsidian did say if they were going to do another kotor game they were going to create a new games engine for it to make it easier for them to use, so roll on kotor 3 and lets see what they come up with

IndianaSolo
10-23-2005, 05:15 PM
d20, or some other such RPG style combat.

If I wanted to play a freaking action game I'd PLAY a freaking action game.

Palpatine_dc
10-23-2005, 05:23 PM
D20. It's more choreographed combat, more cinematic. It does have the drawback of sometimes not making sense like when your opponent takes a hit in the arm and takes just a couple of points of damage. But I still shrudder when I see the wild flailing around in games like JKA.

Venom750
10-23-2005, 06:54 PM
Some one alrady said this but i'll say it againIF IT IS NOT BROKE DON'T FIX IT

lukeiamyourdad
10-24-2005, 12:37 AM
however i am bored of continuous threads discussing the matter its almost as agravating as coming on these boards and finding 'another' wich lightsaber do you use thread/poll.


Actually, this thread is amazingly new. For the first time, it doesn't involve people jumping at each other's throats.

Amazing...

I don't have to express my opinion as my post count will indicate on which side of the fence I'm standing.

Prime
10-24-2005, 08:59 AM
I love the Jedi Knight series and the JO/JA style of combat, but I would much rather they stay with the d20/rpg fighting system for KOTOR. I think it would be a disservice to change the style to an FPS system. Most RPG players do not want a lot of twitch gameplay. Both styles of games cover different genres and each do well in their own way.

boinga1
10-24-2005, 07:42 PM
I'm sorry... what does "realisted" mean? Listed again? :confused:

RobQel-Droma
10-24-2005, 09:01 PM
Keep the same system, they have had it that way in K1 and 2, so I seriously doubt, as Achilles said, that they would risk losing a lot of fans. Personally I didn't mind it, I thought it was fine. It would be nice to have a little bit more control, but it definitely isn't the combat system I am really wanting to be worked on in KotOR III, there are many things farther up on my list.

Oh, and by the way, I knew your opinion by looking at the poll choices. "Real Jedi Knight Experience" versus "Computer Experience"? It is not that way, you have to fight using the KotOR system the same way as JK, just a different combat system. You can't just let your character do it on its own. If you ask me, you kind of made a rather bad description on your poll, regardless on what you point of view is. And again, I have JA, and I am about to get JO, and I like them, but KotOR in NOT a Jedi Knight game.

AnarKy
10-24-2005, 09:13 PM
I know it would be a big change, but what would you you think about Fable combat system in kotor?

RedHawke
10-24-2005, 11:42 PM
I know it would be a big change, but what would you you think about Fable combat system in kotor?
I think that would be a monumental mistake! The game that finishes up the KOTOR Trilogy must stay with the game system that the first one used, to do otherwise would be folly.

Even of OE does make the third installment, and makes their own engine for it, trust me the game will be based off of WotC D20 system, and the gameplay will be very much as it is in the other 2 games... though it might be a tad more visually pleasant. ;)

SITHSLAYER133
10-25-2005, 03:15 AM
not that i suck at games like acadamy or anythin but i reckon they should keep the current system due to it uneeqness and it actualys give people a chance to survive if their carachter kinda is on the weak side of the physical spectrum

if they changed it would become like an rpg of acadamy which would suck

Samurai DD
10-29-2005, 09:27 PM
I would be fond of an upgraded Jade Empire combat system, but D20 for all other things, like skills. So, I didnt vote, cause my idea is a combination of both.

But, I aint really sure, I am fond of the D20 system, I play D&D. If they do keep D20, we need a lot of new animations and a more fluid and fast system. Its lightsaber combat after all. In K1 and K2 there was a delay between movements, that I felt halted the action. It was one of its minor flaws, I truly like the D20 system, it just needs tweaks here and there to be perfect. Ranged combat does need a radical change though. It was really boring and the anis were repetitive. Plus, it was no match for melee.

FiEND_138
10-29-2005, 11:51 PM
If I wanted to play a freaking action game I'd PLAY a freaking action game.
Agreed.

If you want JK combat play JK. Simple.

Hallucination
10-30-2005, 01:21 AM
I voted keep the D20 system. It needs some changes, because the graphics are so old it was made when swords went through people without hurting them!!;) But seriously, update the graphics, add alot more animations and I'll be pretty damn happy.

Jeff
10-30-2005, 10:27 AM
Definitely keep D20. They will lose a lot of players if they switch it, and D20 just fits the game. Everybody is used to it, the game will be totally different if they change the combat system.

IndianaSolo
10-30-2005, 01:13 PM
Oh, and by the way, I knew your opinion by looking at the poll choices. "Real Jedi Knight Experience" versus "Computer Experience"?

No kidding. Talk about a loaded question. He might as well have made the poll question "totally awesome, greatest combat ever in JK, or crappy, terrible, useless, i hate it d20 system".

I'm not aiming this directly at this person, but I get frustrated seeing so many people who like JA or JK keep suggesting to change the KOTOR combat to a more "action" system and say "lol wouldn't it be awesome!??!". No, it wouldn't. I play KOTOR BECAUSE it has its current combat system. Like I said in my post, if I wanted to play JK combat, I'd play JK.

It's as bad as the people who keep suggesting KOTOR become a MMORPG.

Vladimir-Vlada
10-30-2005, 04:28 PM
Okay, we've all agreed that D20 should stay with a lot of improvement (new animations, combos etc.) And the Melee system is excellent, just a little more tweaking and it's the best. But aren't you people forgetting that the RANGED COMBAT is the WORST SYSTEM I've seen in my entire life.

The Ranged system needs SERIOUS reconstrucion, formulasation, scripting, etc. if you ask me...

Hallucination
10-30-2005, 04:33 PM
^^ yeah it does, but I rarely use ranged so I don't really care.

lukeiamyourdad
10-30-2005, 05:29 PM
Okay, we've all agreed that D20 should stay with a lot of improvement (new animations, combos etc.) And the Melee system is excellent, just a little more tweaking and it's the best. But aren't you people forgetting that the RANGED COMBAT is the WORST SYSTEM I've seen in my entire life.

The Ranged system needs SERIOUS reconstrucion, formulasation, scripting, etc. if you ask me...

No. I kinda like it as it is. I mean, you can't have D20 for melee and then switch to manual aiming for ranged. It just wouldn't make any sense. If you want to keep D20, it's a necessary consequence that ranged combat looks weird.

Personally, I don't care about it. This isn't Rainbow Six, I'm not looking for realistic firefights.

IndianaSolo
10-30-2005, 05:51 PM
Okay, we've all agreed that D20 should stay with a lot of improvement (new animations, combos etc.) And the Melee system is excellent, just a little more tweaking and it's the best. But aren't you people forgetting that the RANGED COMBAT is the WORST SYSTEM I've seen in my entire life.

The Ranged system needs SERIOUS reconstrucion, formulasation, scripting, etc. if you ask me...

How so? What would you change about ranged combat?

RedHawke
10-31-2005, 12:31 AM
No. I kinda like it as it is. I mean, you can't have D20 for melee and then switch to manual aiming for ranged. It just wouldn't make any sense. If you want to keep D20, it's a necessary consequence that ranged combat looks weird.

Personally, I don't care about it. This isn't Rainbow Six, I'm not looking for realistic firefights.
I have to agree! ;)

The ranged combat looks the way it does because of the D20 rules. Even though it isn't visually pretty you still do fight effectively with ranged weapons.

If you think otherwise people, check your games feedback to see what really happened in combat sometime. :D

Vladimir-Vlada
10-31-2005, 06:26 AM
I mean, you can't have D20 for melee and then switch to manual aiming for ranged.
This isn't Rainbow Six, I'm not looking for realistic firefights.

Man, THIS is the reason why I sometimes HATE arguing with you and RedHawke: As soon as someone coplains that the D20 system hasn't been used to it's maximum (which I believe that it isn't) you start jumping to conclusions that that persons wants a FPS system; and then we all go "You're a hypocrite. (from me)" "You are ignorant and you are mindless and all you can come up with is 'it will suck' because you are stupid, and the best thing to do is listen to us, because we know best and we know more than you (from you two)".

So next time, think about who is a KOTOR fan and who isn't, you'll figure out soon enough who wants a FPS system and who wants to improve the D20. Sheesh!

How so?
The ranged combat looks more like a game of childrens static dodgeball to me, rather than a sort of combat.

What would you change about ranged combat?
Well, for starters, I would examine all of the D20 rules carefully and use them to a maximum to make the combat look more natrual, without breaking any of the rules of that RPG system. And I'm pretty sure that there is surely something that can be done to improve it without hurting the rules.

That's all what I can say at any rate...

RedHawke
10-31-2005, 08:12 AM
Man, THIS is the reason why I sometimes HATE arguing with you and RedHawke: As soon as someone coplains that the D20 system hasn't been used to it's maximum (which I believe that it isn't) you start jumping to conclusions that that persons wants a FPS system; and then we all go "You're a hypocrite. (from me)" "You are ignorant and you are mindless and all you can come up with is 'it will suck' because you are stupid, and the best thing to do is listen to us, because we know best and we know more than you (from you two)".
Here we go again... *Takes a big sniff* You can just smell the drama here! :roleyess:

If you truely "HATE" debating with us then why post when we do? Let alone a post like this?

So next time, think about who is a KOTOR fan and who isn't, you'll figure out soon enough who wants a FPS system and who wants to improve the D20. Sheesh!
Right back at you Vlad... In the future I suggest if you want to discuss things rationally with me you leave your usual "self-persecution" and "drama" out of your posts. OK!

Oh and FYI, there is no "used to it's maximum" or "improving" the D20 system as it is reprisented in KOTOR...

The ranged combat looks more like a game of childrens static dodgeball to me, rather than a sort of combat.
That's the way the combat in D20 looks like... love it or leave it I say! :xp:

Seriously, the games rules makes movement a no-no as it is a turn based, fantasy RPG system (D&D), so what you seem to want cannot be done whilst using that system, combat movement is limited to closing on your opponent for an attack (Melee)... Or standing still and shooting (Ranged), and forget hitting anything with Ranged weapons if you move, severe attack penalties are incurred by any sort of combat movement when using a ranged weapon, so that is why you stand still to shoot.

While visually it looks like "dodgeball" as you put it, that is the way it is.

Well, for starters, I would examine all of the D20 rules carefully and use them to a maximum to make the combat look more natrual, without breaking any of the rules of that RPG system. And I'm pretty sure that there is surely something that can be done to improve it without hurting the rules.

That's all what I can say at any rate...
Sorry to burst your bubble... The D20 system cannot be examined any more as the rules are reprisented carefully, and accurately by the game, this is the problem you have with it actually, it is a faithful reprisentation of PnP RPG combat using the D20 game system... so I'm sorry but what you want isn't going to happen in this game series!

But if there is another RPG set in Star Wars after the KOTOR trilogy is completed, I hope they use the D6 RPG system instead, combat at least would be more to your liking. Come to think of it, it would be more to my liking as well. :)

Aurora Merlow
10-31-2005, 08:46 AM
keep D20, such a major change i think would ruin the experience when playing 1 after the other when it does finally come out

Prime
10-31-2005, 10:25 AM
Man, THIS is the reason why I sometimes HATE arguing with you and RedHawke: As soon as someone coplains that the D20 system hasn't been used to it's maximum (which I believe that it isn't) you start jumping to conclusions that that persons wants a FPS system; and then we all go "You're a hypocrite. (from me)" "You are ignorant and you are mindless and all you can come up with is 'it will suck' because you are stupid, and the best thing to do is listen to us, because we know best and we know more than you (from you two)".That is not what they are doing. You don't need to be overdramatic. If you hate debating with them, move onto another thread. No harm, no foul.

RobQel-Droma
10-31-2005, 11:46 AM
I don't mind the look of the D20 combat system, it looks fine to me. Perhaps you could have a little improvement, but I don't really know much about RPGs so I would know or care. Keep it the way it is! Just like keeping the Ebon Hawk along with HK-47 and T3-M3!

I didn't mind the ranged system, I thought it was fine. When you fight the three dark Jedid on the Star Forge, on the first deck, Carth had Cassus' pistol and a Mandalorian heavy pistol, and he took all three of them out before they even got to me. I love power blast :giggle1:.

Does anybody know what "realisted" means? Or is he trying to say "realistic"?

Vladimir-Vlada
10-31-2005, 12:19 PM
Here we go again... *Takes a big sniff* You can just smell the drama here! :roleyess:

If you truely "HATE" debating with us then why post when we do? Let alone a post like this?


Right back at you Vlad... In the future I suggest if you want to discuss things rationally with me you leave your usual "self-persecution" and "drama" out of your posts. OK!

Oh and FYI, there is no "used to it's maximum" or "improving" the D20 system as it is reprisented in KOTOR...


That's the way the combat in D20 looks like... love it or leave it I say! :xp:

Seriously, the games rules makes movement a no-no as it is a turn based, fantasy RPG system (D&D), so what you seem to want cannot be done whilst using that system, combat movement is limited to closing on your opponent for an attack (Melee)... Or standing still and shooting (Ranged), and forget hitting anything with Ranged weapons if you move, severe attack penalties are incurred by any sort of combat movement when using a ranged weapon, so that is why you stand still to shoot.

While visually it looks like "dodgeball" as you put it, that is the way it is.


Sorry to burst your bubble... The D20 system cannot be examined any more as the rules are reprisented carefully, and accurately by the game, this is the problem you have with it actually, it is a faithful reprisentation of PnP RPG combat using the D20 game system... so I'm sorry but what you want isn't going to happen in this game series!

But if there is another RPG set in Star Wars after the KOTOR trilogy is completed, I hope they use the D6 RPG system instead, combat at least would be more to your liking. Come to think of it, it would be more to my liking as well. :)
Am I really that of a bad person? :( All right... I'll stop posting in this section... (I admit my views are extreme and I apologise for not being fit enough to behave smarter)

Darth333
10-31-2005, 12:35 PM
Man, THIS is the reason why I sometimes HATE arguing with you and RedHawke: As soon as someone coplains that the D20 system hasn't been used to it's maximum (which I believe that it isn't) you start jumping to conclusions that that persons wants a FPS system; and then we all go "You're a hypocrite. (from me)" "You are ignorant and you are mindless and all you can come up with is 'it will suck' because you are stupid, and the best thing to do is listen to us, because we know best and we know more than you (from you two)".
Vlad lighten up and stop over-reacting with melodramatic posts. Nowhere Redhawke's post says this. The boards are for discussion and expressing opinions on different topics and it is exaclty what Redhawke does. You have the right to disagree but don't get like that because someone thinks differently.

As for my opinion on the topic, I think they should continue to base it on the d20 system.

IndianaSolo
10-31-2005, 01:29 PM
The ranged combat looks more like a game of childrens static dodgeball to me, rather than a sort of combat.


Well, for starters, I would examine all of the D20 rules carefully and use them to a maximum to make the combat look more natrual, without breaking any of the rules of that RPG system. And I'm pretty sure that there is surely something that can be done to improve it without hurting the rules.

That's all what I can say at any rate...

I think what you're complaining about has more to do with the graphical animations during the combat scenes rather than the combat system itself.

I don't think they can tweak the system itself, but I think they could add a better variety of animations to go along with it so it doesn't look as repetitive.

lukeiamyourdad
10-31-2005, 05:13 PM
That's because it's how turn-based RPG really is.

Final Fantasy's (and most of Square's RPGs) ranged combat looks even more atrocious.
It's wait. Move in. Hit. Move back.

The other "RPG" system is the point and click, la Diablo or Dungeon Siege. Neither game dwelves very deeply into their story. Understandable as the focus is combat alone.
In purely technical terms, this would be considered manual aiming.
It doesn't fit KotOR however, as no story-driven RPG (that I know), uses such a superficial system.