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Revan Skywalker
10-29-2005, 12:31 PM
Are they making a sequel to Republic Commando soon?

Darth_Terros
10-30-2005, 05:59 AM
Nope

Joetheeskimo
11-16-2005, 07:37 PM
Possibly. A survery was sent out by LF recently asking what people would like to see in a sequel to Republic Commando.

SirLancelot
11-17-2005, 05:03 AM
Karen Traviss has a second Republic Commando novel coming out in early 2006, called Triple Zero. I'm hopeful this will give us a sequel.

Sabretooth
11-17-2005, 09:37 AM
Actually, LucasArts is staying too quite these days. I think they're gearing up for game surprises. Next year, I think, they should announce KotOR 3, RC 2 and some new SW games.

Joetheeskimo
11-17-2005, 06:10 PM
Karen Traviss has a second Republic Commando novel coming out in early 2006, called Triple Zero. I'm hopeful this will give us a sequel.

I e-mailed her a while ago and she said her new book is in no way associated with a sequel to RC. She's just creating it for fun, not because she wants to tie it into a sequel.

SirLancelot
11-17-2005, 08:28 PM
I see. Well, hopefully we can get a sequel in the next year. the Clone Wars has so much content to work with.

TK-8252
11-17-2005, 08:47 PM
I see. Well, hopefully we can get a sequel in the next year. the Clone Wars has so much content to work with.

Well, when Republic Commando ends, the Clone Wars are just a few hours away from ending too. A sequel would have to be based on new material, probably with Delta Squad adapting to the transition from Republic to Empire, coping with the loss of Sev, and... you guessed it... hunting Jedi. Of course, there's plenty of potential with a storyline such as that, it's just that a sequel wouldn't be based on the Clone Wars like the first one.

Joetheeskimo
11-18-2005, 08:01 AM
Why not? It takes place days after Episode 2, not days before Episode 3.

TK-8252
11-18-2005, 08:53 AM
Why not? It takes place days after Episode 2, not days before Episode 3.

The game ends with the Republic fleet arriving at Kashyyyk, which takes place DURING Episode 3.

Kurgan
11-18-2005, 05:43 PM
Then again, they could easily retread the same or similar material in a sequel if they wanted to. Many "sequels" (both movies and games) have done that. A recent example is Doom3. Or Battlefront II...

But so soon after this one? Doesn't seem too likely as there's been no accouncement thus far. If anything I'd love to see a Multiplayer focused expansion (even if they were to call it "Republic Commando 2" purely to increase sales). But we know nothing, so it's all wishful thinking and speculation...

It's notable that RC marked the completion of the last game started under former LucasArts President Simon Jeffrey (who resigned to spend more time with his family)... the other games all having been released or cancelled. Perhaps the new management doesn't want to throw any more money at it, seeing it as a dead end? Who knows.

Joetheeskimo
11-18-2005, 05:56 PM
The game ends with the Republic fleet arriving at Kashyyyk, which takes place DURING Episode 3.

Aaah..

Well that sucks. I don't really want to play a game in which you sneak up from behind Jedi and murder them. :xp:

Manny C
11-20-2005, 09:13 PM
I'd love to see a RP sequel, i thought the first one was highly underrated and possibly one of the most fun FPS' of the year. The game felt like a starwars version of Halo 2 but with an awesomely simply and easy to use squad control system.

What i reckon would be an awesome idea for the sequel would be, the squad, because of their bond with each other and their individuality from the rest of the clones, reject orders to leave sev and they go back for him, and the first few levels could be saving private sev, and while they've rejected orders and gone to save sev, order 66 is given, so the squad is out of contact when the order is given, and you're on the other side of the coin, and maybe get attacked by a jedi thinking ur gonna kill him, and your squad kills him in self defence, or you stun him and explain the situation then help him escape, the game could turn into like Rebel Commando or something, i personally think that would be sick. I prefer to keep the commando's on the side of good, because they were memorable and cool characters who would be an awesome asset to the light side.

I reckon this idea would be the perfect template for an RP sequel, and with a couple of gameplay updates (new weapons/locations), it could have an awesome story to back up the game, could make a classic. I can see some seriously awesome scenarios coming out of this, like jedi rescue missions, fighting along side jedi, an SWIV style bit where you're pretending you've got a jedi captured, fooling the clones then all hell breaks loose, stuff like that. I reckon clone commandos versus clones would be sick, maybe a bunch of jedi are surrounded and you have to hijack a drop ship and zip line down to their rescue, stuff like that would be the bomb i reckon.

Joetheeskimo
11-21-2005, 02:06 PM
Awesome! That's actually an extremely good idea for a sequel. *Applause*


...Although I highly doubt LA would go for something that cool - if they even release a sequel. :(

Manny C
11-21-2005, 11:22 PM
thanks joe. We can only hope lucasarts decide to take the chance at a sequel, the first was great imo.

Joetheeskimo
11-22-2005, 08:09 AM
I'd also like some improvements to MP; MP is what keeps a game alive after everybody has finished the SP side.
We should be able to play droids and geonosians along with clones and trandoshans. I don't see why they didn't add those two factions in the first place...

Manny C
11-22-2005, 09:19 AM
yeah and scenario maps like objectives and stuff, so perfect for a commando oriented game.

Kurgan
11-28-2005, 03:08 AM
Well you could always make some addon maps, but I take it the tools are pretty limited as far as creating brand new content is concerned... am I right?

The Eyes
12-01-2005, 06:01 PM
Maybe The Commandos could be launched off To A planet weve never heard of only to find out its Taris (KOTOR) And fight off Crazed Savages and Rakghouls? (hey, this tie-in might be cool) And They have to find a way to communicate with their Commanders to get off.

Manny C
12-01-2005, 07:47 PM
regardless of the fact that Taris was totally flattened, i dont think that's a great idea. It wouldn't make any sense. Better to keep the commandos close to film settings, regurgitating settings from other games would suck a bit.

I reckon they should expand the gameplay a bit tho, atm its pretty much a balls to wall action game, but i reckon non linear playing like being able to sneak past, ambush, or any number of other things would be a cool implementation to the game. however, i do NOT think that they should throw in half assed "steath segments" like so many stupid games do to seem diverse and end up just remaining linear and crap. The player should have a choice of how to approach a situation. I think expanding the gameplay would make squad control more interesting too because you could make different characters better at different things, making for far more interesting gameplay

Igor_Cavkov
12-07-2005, 04:31 PM
i think they should move on to Imperial Commando.. and the first missions you could fight some rests of the CIS .. then hunt jedi and rebels.. would be nice! i would love a sequel!

Kel Niun
12-07-2005, 07:52 PM
I think a sequel is in order too. its a great game :)

Manny C
12-13-2005, 07:53 AM
i think they should move on to Imperial Commando.. and the first missions you could fight some rests of the CIS .. then hunt jedi and rebels.. would be nice! i would love a sequel!

i reckon "imperial commando" would be unimaginative. Sorry but i stick by my idea of keeping the commandos on the side of good.

MachineCult
12-13-2005, 07:09 PM
How about, Rogue Commando, fighting with the Rebels and Bothan Spies...
They might be able to fit another game before the end of the Clone Wars?

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 07:14 PM
How about, Rogue Commando, fighting with the Rebels and Bothan Spies...
They might be able to fit another game before the end of the Clone Wars?

No.

You should play as Delta Squad in the sequel.

Manny C
12-13-2005, 07:25 PM
yeah, the game is about delta squad, you can't change that. Especially when they left it open for a sequel by leaving sev behind.

They set it up perfectly for the squad to defy orders and save him, and insodoing miss the activation of order 66. If they made a game where delta squad were pro empire id be pissed off, mostly because they're not just faceless soldiers (despite the fact that they are clones), they actually have some personality to them.

MachineCult
12-13-2005, 07:37 PM
No.

You should play as Delta Squad in the sequel.

I suggested that they could probably fit another game between the end of Republic Commando and the end of the Clone Wars.
I never said that you wouldn't play as delta squad, even when I said Rogue Commando, ROGUE, defected from the Empire. They'd probably be too old though.

Try reading a post properly before replying.

Manny C
12-13-2005, 07:49 PM
read my first reply to this thread machinecult, its my idea for how they could make a "rogue commando" work story wise.

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 08:10 PM
They set it up perfectly for the squad to defy orders and save him, and insodoing miss the activation of order 66. If they made a game where delta squad were pro empire id be pissed off, mostly because they're not just faceless soldiers (despite the fact that they are clones), they actually have some personality to them.

Except they didn't defy the orders. Neither did they rebel against the Empire. None of the clones did. The Clone Commandos were genetically modified for lower independence and increased loyalty exactly like the regular Clone Troopers, therefore it is genetically-impossible for them to defy or defect.

I never said that you wouldn't play as delta squad, even when I said Rogue Commando, ROGUE, defected from the Empire.

Except Delta Squad didn't defect, so a "Rogue Commando" game could not have you play as the clones.

Try reading a post properly before replying.

I did. It appears you do not fully understand the way the clones react to orders (watch AotC again during the Kamino scenes).

Manny C
12-13-2005, 08:27 PM
Except they didn't defy the orders. Neither did they rebel against the Empire. None of the clones did. The Clone Commandos were genetically modified for lower independence and increased loyalty exactly like the regular Clone Troopers, therefore it is genetically-impossible for them to defy or defect.

You don't know that, the game ends with them in a dropship and arguing over whether they should go back for him. The point of the commandos is that they trained together seperately, meaning they have a fraternal bond with each other that the others dont have, its entirely possible that they would defy orders for the sake of one of them. "genetically-impossible"? please, what do you know about whats "genetically-possible", dont throw phrases like that in to sound like you know what ur talking about.


Except Delta Squad didn't defect, so a "Rogue Commando" game could not have you play as the clones.

again, you dont know that, the game ends b4 order 66 is given, we dont know what happens to them.


I did. It appears you do not fully understand the way the clones react to orders (watch AotC again during the Kamino scenes).
again, the point of the game is that the commandos are different and better, they've been trained differently in a different environment. They aren't the same as normal clones otherwise it wouldnt be "republic commando" it would be "republic trooper"

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 08:41 PM
You don't know that, the game ends with them in a dropship and arguing over whether they should go back for him. The point of the commandos is that they trained together seperately, meaning they have a fraternal bond with each other that the others dont have, its entirely possible that they would defy orders for the sake of one of them. "genetically-impossible"? please, what do you know about whats "genetically-possible", dont throw phrases like that in to sound like you know what ur talking about.

I thought the meaning of "genetically-impossible" would be self-explanatory. Something is impossible due to limitations through genetics. How can you not have figured that out yourself... :confused:

again, you dont know that, the game ends b4 order 66 is given, we dont know what happens to them.

According to AotC, they follow the orders.

again, the point of the game is that the commandos are different and better, they've been trained differently in a different environment. They aren't the same as normal clones otherwise it wouldnt be "republic commando" it would be "republic trooper"

Cody and Bly are different and better, trained differently in a different environment, and yet they follow orders to kill their friends and do so without question or hesitation. Why is it so hard for the commandos to follow orders with the exact same genetic modifications and all? :confused:

Manny C
12-13-2005, 08:54 PM
I thought the meaning of "genetically-impossible" would be self-explanatory. Something is impossible due to limitations through genetics. How can you not have figured that out yourself... :confused:


who said anything about not understanding the term. The point is you dont know anything about "genetic limitations". You're trying to rationalise an argument using a meger attempt to deem something scientifically impossible when A: the whole thing is fiction, and B: you dont know anything about the science so you might as well say elvis isnt dead, hes the leader of an alien invasion force who are planning to conquer earth and it would have just about as much credibility.



Originally Posted by Manny C
again, you dont know that, the game ends b4 order 66 is given, we dont know what happens to them.


According to AotC, they follow the orders.


id take your comment at face value but there are some problems that prevent me from doing so. Firstly, they dont mention the clone commandos AT ALL in ANY of the movies. Secondly, AotC happens BEFORE Republic Commando, so how can they say that the commandos followed order 66 in AotC when it hasnt even happened yet.


Cody and Bly are different and better, trained differently in a different environment, and yet they follow orders to kill their friends and do so without question or hesitation. Why is it so hard for the commandos to follow orders with the exact same genetic modifications and all? :confused:
How can they follow the order if they don't hear it? My idea is that the commandos go back to save sev because of their fraternal bond, putting them out of contact with command, therefore, when order 66 is given they dont hear it so they dont start killing jedi. Really isnt that hard to understand, mate.

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 09:03 PM
who said anything about not understanding the term. The point is you dont know anything about "genetic limitations". You're trying to rationalise an argument using a meger attempt to deem something scientifically impossible when A: the whole thing is fiction, and B: you dont know anything about the science so you might as well say elvis isnt dead, hes the leader of an alien invasion force who are planning to conquer earth and it would have just about as much credibility.

If the whole thing is fiction then why don't we just have Delta Squad turn into birds and fly away into the forests of Kashyyyk and live happily ever after? That sounds AWESOME.

But sadly, there are limits even to Star Wars. And some of those limitations are genetic.

id take your comment at face value but there are some problems that prevent me from doing so. Firstly, they dont mention the clone commandos AT ALL in ANY of the movies. Secondly, AotC happens BEFORE Republic Commando, so how can they say that the commandos followed order 66 in AotC when it hasnt even happened yet.

When they're talking about the clones that includes the commandos, as they have been modified exactly the same as the grunt troops.

Oh yeah... "I have five special commando units awaiting your orders." That's what a commander said to Mace Windu in AotC. So you're wrong that they don't mention the commandos.

Also, you're wrong that AotC happens before Republic Commando. The very beginning of Republic Commando has you as a fetus, which would be ten years before AotC.

How can they follow the order if they don't hear it? My idea is that the commandos go back to save sev because of their fraternal bond, order 66 is given and they dont hear it therefore they dont start killing jedi.

There are comlinks in their helmets.

Manny C
12-13-2005, 09:31 PM
If the whole thing is fiction then why don't we just have Delta Squad turn into birds and fly away into the forests of Kashyyyk and live happily ever after?
because that's stupid.


But sadly, there are limits even to Star Wars. And some of those limitations are genetic.

The clones have been modified, yes, but they're not completely dependant on orders otherwise they'd be useless soldiers. Secondly, there are things that could easily be used as plot devices to get around your "genetic limitations", such as the strength of a family like bond that the commandos do share (says so in the game and the website).


When they're talking about the clones that includes the commandos, as they have been modified exactly the same as the grunt troops.
they havent been trained the same, they dont have the same values, tactics or relationship with fellow troops.


Oh yeah... "I have five special commando units awaiting your orders." That's what a commander said to Mace Windu in AotC. So you're wrong that they don't mention the commandos.

be that as it may, it doesnt really prove anything.


Also, you're wrong that AotC happens before Republic Commando. The very beginning of Republic Commando has you as a fetus, which would be ten years before AotC.


republic commando starts as AotC ends. And you've still missed the whole point. The point is that i stated, no where does anyone say that the commandos followed order 66. to which you replied:

According to AotC, they follow the orders.


AotC happened years before order 66 was given, how the hell could AotC say that the commandos followed order 66 if it isnt going to happen for a good couple of years! jesus this is like arguing with a wet rag.


There are comlinks in their helmets.

have you even read my first reply? Here's how it works, the deltas decide, out of caring for their "brother" Sev, that they are going to go back and rescue him, thereby defying orders. So they cut communications with command and go back to save him. MEANWHILE, order 66 is given, jedi are being killed everywhere and the deltas are none the wiser as they are busy saving sev. Therefore, they DONT hear the order and they dont start killing jedi, so they STAY GOOD. it really is not that complicated.

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 09:48 PM
because that's stupid.

So is having rogue clones.

The clones have been modified, yes, but they're not completely dependant on orders otherwise they'd be useless soldiers. Secondly, there are things that could easily be used as plot devices to get around your "genetic limitations", such as the strength of a family like bond that the commandos do share (says so in the game and the website).

Not dependent on orders entirely, but they obey any orders as said in AotC.

they havent been trained the same, they dont have the same values, tactics or relationship with fellow troops.

I said they are modified the same, not trained. They are trained differently, yes, but so are Cody and Bly, and yet they murder their friends just because they were ordered to.

be that as it may, it doesnt really prove anything.

I just wanted to correct you.

republic commando starts as AotC ends. And you've still missed the whole point. The point is that i stated, no where does anyone say that the commandos followed order 66. to which you replied:

Wrong, it starts TEN YEARS BEFORE. Remember, you start out as a fetus in the very beginning?

And it doesn't need to say that they followed Order 66. Both AotC and RotS establish that the clones obeyed their orders. Don't contradict the highest source of canon, George Lucas's own films.

There actually WAS a "sequel" to Republic Commando. There was "Republic Commando: Order 66" made for mobile phones where you play as Delta Squad hunting down Jedi.

AotC happened years before order 66 was given, how the hell could AotC say that the commandos followed order 66 if it isnt going to happen for a good couple of years! jesus this is like arguing with a wet rag.

"They are totally obedient, following any order about question." - Lama Su in AotC

have you even read my first reply? Here's how it works, the deltas decide, out of caring for their "brother" Sev, that they are going to go back and rescue him, thereby defying orders. So they cut communications with command and go back to save him. MEANWHILE, order 66 is given, jedi are being killed everywhere and the deltas are none the wiser as they are busy saving sev. Therefore, they DONT hear the order and they dont start killing jedi, so they STAY GOOD. it really is not that complicated.

Yes I did read your post, but it contradicts the ending to Republic Commando. Watch the ending again. They board the gunship and leave without Sev.

Manny C
12-13-2005, 10:13 PM
So is having rogue clones.
matter of opinion. Personally i would rather an interesting, detailed story than "you are an imperial commando, kill jedi" to me thats flat, boring, and a one way ticket to another uninspired run of the mill FPS like the rest of the trash that clogs the shelves these days. Republic Commando wasn't that successful, the level design was reasonable, if a bit linear and there wasnt much of a story, but the game mechanics were good fun and so were the characters. By creating "imperial commando" you eliminate the way in which the player relates to the characters, thereby destroying one of the only parts of the first that was good. Think both logically and creatively, imperial commando is a BAD idea. So to me, "imperial commando" is stupid in every respect.


Not dependent on orders entirely, but they obey any orders as said in AotC.


I said they are modified the same, not trained. They are trained differently, yes, but so are Cody and Bly, and yet they murder their friends just because they were ordered to.

no, order 66 is a special behavioural trigger that was programmed into their brains, it wasnt the same as a simple order. A fairly easy mistake to make but a critical one nonetheless. The way you see it, if a commanding officer orders a clone to do absolutely anything, they'll do it. Which is completely stupid and they'd never do it.



Wrong, it starts TEN YEARS BEFORE. Remember, you start out as a fetus in the very beginning?
oh my god that has to be the most pointless thing you could say. Firstly, thats a cutscene so technically the "game" doesnt start till geonosis, and secondly its completely irrelevant whether theres a cutscene that starts before the movies.


And it doesn't need to say that they followed Order 66. Both AotC and RotS establish that the clones obeyed their orders. Don't contradict the highest source of canon, George Lucas's own films.

"They are totally obedient, following any order about question." - Lama Su in AotC


you've still got the movie mixed up, its not your fault if you couldnt understand it properly. Yes, the movies establish that normal CLONE TROOPERS are totally obedient and follow orders. But the GAME also establishes that the clone commandos are NOT your average clones. It also establishes how important each of delta squad are to each other, and also the fact that each one has his own personality adopted from their personal trainers, ie they are NOT faceless troopers blindly following any order they are given. In fact, the idea to give each commando a different colour scheme was GEORGE LUCAS' idea, as he wanted to establish that each of the commandos are unique and have their own personality. So if anything "the highest source of canon, George Lucas" supports the idea that the clone commandos have their own unique personalities and independant thought.


There actually WAS a "sequel" to Republic Commando. There was "Republic Commando: Order 66" made for mobile phones where you play as Delta Squad hunting down Jedi.


gee, i wonder why ive never heard of it.

[EDIT] i just looked it up, and you dont actually play as delta squad in it

Yes I did read your post, but it contradicts the ending to Republic Commando. Watch the ending again. They board the gunship and leave without Sev.
you dont see them leave the planet, they could easily turn the dropship around. Definately an easily avoidable point that can be avoided in order to have a half decent plot. Why the hell are people so hell bent on having crap games? imperial commando would be crap, i certainly wouldnt buy it, it would completely contradict everything that the game establishes about the commandos.

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 10:37 PM
matter of opinion. Personally i would rather an interesting, detailed story than "you are an imperial commando, kill jedi" to me thats flat, boring, and a one way ticket to another uninspired run of the mill FPS like the rest of the trash that clogs the shelves these days. Republic Commando wasn't that successful, the level design was reasonable, if a bit linear and there wasnt much of a story, but the game mechanics were good fun and so were the characters. By creating "imperial commando" you eliminate the way in which the player relates to the characters, thereby destroying one of the only parts of the first that was good. Think both logically and creatively, imperial commando is a BAD idea. So to me, "imperial commando" is stupid in every respect.

"You are a Republic Commando, shoot droids."

Why would "Imperial Commando" have to be limited to Jedi? No love for killing Rebels?

no, order 66 is a special behavioural trigger that was programmed into their brains, it wasnt the same as a simple order. A fairly easy mistake to make but a critical one nonetheless. The way you see it, if a commanding officer orders a clone to do absolutely anything, they'll do it. Which is completely stupid and they'd never do it.

Wrong again.

From SW Insider article "Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic":

Records salvaged from Kamino show that no genetic coding was used to implant obedience to this order. The efficiency with which this order was carried out was due to a genetic predisposition to be highly disciplined - and so to follow orders - that was developed and reinforced by rigorous training.

The clones were trained to put their personal feelings, fears, and needs aside and to obey their superiors instantly - training familiar to soldiers throughout history. That made them the most efficient army in the galaxy. Ironically, it sealed the fate of their Jedi commanders.

So no, it was not a programmed order. It was just an order like any other.

oh my god that has to be the most pointless thing you could say. Firstly, thats a cutscene so technically the "game" doesnt start till geonosis, and secondly its completely irrelevant whether theres a cutscene that starts before the movies.

I just wanted to correct you.

you've still got the movie mixed up, its not your fault if you couldnt understand it properly. Yes, the movies establish that normal CLONE TROOPERS are totally obedient and follow orders. But the GAME also establishes that the clone commandos are NOT your average clones. It also establishes how important each of delta squad are to each other, and also the fact that each one has his own personality adopted from their personal trainers, ie they are NOT faceless troopers blindly following any order they are given. In fact, the idea to give each commando a different colour scheme was GEORGE LUCAS' idea, as he wanted to establish that each of the commandos are unique and have their own personality. So if anything "the highest source of canon, George Lucas" supports the idea that the clone commandos have their own unique personalities and independant thought.

So I guess Cody and Bly didn't obey their orders either?

gee, i wonder why ive never heard of it.

http://wireless.ign.com/objects/739/739457.html

My bad, turns out it wasn't Delta Squad, but more just Republic Commandos who were issued Order 66 and proceed to hunt down Jedi as ordered.

you dont see them leave the planet, they could easily turn the dropship around. Definately an easily avoidable point that can be avoided in order to have a half decent plot. Why the hell are people so hell bent on having crap games? imperial commando would be crap, i certainly wouldnt buy it, it would completely contradict everything that the game establishes about the commandos.

So let me get this straight: even though they already agreed to obey the orders, all of a sudden, they rip open the doors of the gunship, drop 500 feet into the forest below, then fight their way back into the city to rescue Sev. Then they go fight for the Rebellion because they hate the Republic so much.

Yeah, that makes sense... :confused:

Manny C
12-13-2005, 11:29 PM
"You are a Republic Commando, shoot droids."

Why would "Imperial Commando" have to be limited to Jedi? No love for killing Rebels?


probably because the rebellion hadnt been founded yet.
Also ur not proving anything with that first comment, i already said it didnt have much of a story.



So no, it was not a programmed order. It was just an order like any other.

which makes it all more plausible that the deltas could stay good should they be out of contact when the order is given.


I just wanted to correct you.


bad rhetoric, mate. Makes it look like u cant stay on topic or you dont have a clear idea of what the topic is.


So I guess Cody and Bly didn't obey their orders either?

its all circumstances, they followed the order because they were there to hear it, the same thing would happen with the deltas. My idea is to use something called "decent writing", ie use of things like "plot devices" and "constructed circumstance" in order to keep the "protagonists" on the side of good. If im going too fast let me know.



So let me get this straight: even though they already agreed to obey the orders, all of a sudden, they rip open the doors of the gunship, drop 500 feet into the forest below, then fight their way back into the city to rescue Sev. Then they go fight for the Rebellion because they hate the Republic so much.

Yeah, that makes sense... :confused:

watch the scene again, the characters are conflicted about the decision, there isnt a resolution at the end of the game, its left OPEN, something that writers do so that it's possible to continue the story should they decide to make a sequel. Its really not that difficult. 38, the commander, is conflicted about the decision, and his sense of comradery and leader's kinship with his troops overrides his loyalty and he tells the pilot "take us back down" and the pilot, being a regular clone trooper given an order by a superior officer, does so. Advisor comes in the comlink "38, im reading that your dropship is returning to the surface, what are you doing?" 38 turns OFF his commlink. Scorch, the most independant seeming, does the same, and 40, who is still conflicted, but still follows the squad, does too. As they are landing, a loose anti air shot hits the dropship and it crashes. The game starts, and you take control of 38, who recomposes himself, and the first part of the level would be getting used to the controls and finding scorch and fixer, much like in the first game. From there, they need to find a command console to find anything about sev on the database, and pinpoint his location.

At this point, the game is set up for a level that involves fighting through kashyyyk and finding sev. DURING WHICH TIME order 66 is given around the galaxies, while the deltas are out of contact, and thus do not receive the order. This is a possible way in which THOUGHT OUT scripting can properly get around all of your easily avoidable issues by using plot devices, setting up the game for a compelling, and enjoyable story in which the protagonists REMAIN protagonists and don't turn to the empire, and thus the dark side.

if that's too complicated for you then maybe the gaming industry is doomed to mindless shooters with no decent plot progression or unique likable characters.

TK-8252
12-13-2005, 11:43 PM
probably because the rebellion hadnt been founded yet.
Also ur not proving anything with that first comment, i already said it didnt have much of a story.

Not just the Rebels from the OT. There's plenty of other scum and villainy in the galaxy. Take me, for example.

which makes it all more plausible that the deltas could stay good should they be out of contact when the order is given.

No, because they were genetically-modified for absolute loyalty.

bad rhetoric, mate. Makes it look like u cant stay on topic or you dont have a clear idea of what the topic is.

Okay so you can say things that are false, and if I correct you then I look like a fool? Got it.

its all circumstances, they followed the order because they were there to hear it, the same thing would happen with the deltas. My idea is to use something called "decent writing", ie use of things like "plot devices" and "constructed circumstance" in order to keep the "protagonists" on the side of good. If im going too fast let me know.

I like having my intelligence insulted. Feel free to continue insulting. I like it and it makes you look way better than me. :thumbsup:

watch the scene again, the characters are conflicted about the decision, there isnt a resolution at the end of the game, its left OPEN, something that writers do so that it's possible to continue the story should they decide to make a sequel. Its really not that difficult. 38, the commander, is conflicted about the decision, and his sense of comradery and leader's kinship with his troops overrides his loyalty and he tells the pilot "take us back down" and the pilot, being a regular clone trooper given an order by a superior officer, does so. Advisor comes in the comlink "38, im reading that your dropship is returning to the surface, what are you doing?" 38 turns OFF his commlink. Scorch, the most independant seeming, does the same, and 40, who is still conflicted, but still follows the squad, does too. As they are landing, a loose anti air shot hits the dropship and it crashes. The game starts, and you take control of 38, who recomposes himself, and the first part of the level would be getting used to the controls and finding scorch and fixer, much like in the first game. From there, they need to find a command console to find anything about sev on the database, and pinpoint his location.

At this point, the game is set up for a level that involves fighting through kashyyyk and finding sev. DURING WHICH TIME order 66 is given around the galaxies, while the deltas are out of contact, and thus do not receive the order. This is a possible way in which THOUGHT OUT scripting can properly get around all of your easily avoidable issues by using plot devices, setting up the game for a compelling, and enjoyable story in which the protagonists REMAIN protagonists and don't turn to the empire, and thus the dark side.

This is a nice idea, but is still not plausible.

if that's too complicated for you then maybe the gaming industry is doomed to mindless shooters with no decent plot progression or unique likable characters.

Last time I checked I wasn't a game developer.

Manny C
12-14-2005, 12:23 AM
No, because they were genetically-modified for absolute loyalty.

Thats just the thing, the deltas are not absolutely loyal, a whole concept with the game that makes the deltas heroes is how they are different through experience.


But in the end, who wants to play a bunch of guys who all sound, look, and act the same? One of the best parts of being in a team is the personalities of your brothers. So later than we'd like, we shifted gears (with some good suggestions from Mr. Lucas) and it ended up being the right move. Now we have a great combination of 'new clone' and 'motley crew'. Having trained together from birth on Kamino, each member of the squad starts to form their personality much like humans do, right out of the gates.

The whole idea of the deltas is that they are unique and NOT bland order following soldiers, just like the designer's notes say.


Okay so you can say things that are false, and if I correct you then I look like a fool? Got it.

yep. I dont consider being corrected for not reading "star wars insider" or knowing the Star Wars timeline off by heart that bad. And in doing so, you get off topic, make irrelevant points and generally weaken your argument.


I like having my intelligence insulted. Feel free to continue insulting. I like it and it makes you look way better than me. :thumbsup:

im not trying to offend you, im trying to make a point that we should avoid the attitude that a decent story and potentially memorable game should be forfeit because starwars insider says they would follow orders, instead, lets make another bland, uninteresting FPS depending entirely on the gameplay mechanics of the first, which were barely enough to keep the game afloat to begin with.


This is a nice idea, but is still not plausible.


Why isnt it plausible? it isnt enough to just say "its not plausible". There's nothing that prevents this idea from being used. The deltas are NOT faceless grunts who follow all orders, the designer of the game and george lucas himself established that.

Last time I checked I wasn't a game developer.
no, but the more consumers, like yourself, who push for games without a decent story, the more game publishers will push them out because they assume thats what will sell.

TK-8252
12-14-2005, 12:45 AM
Thats just the thing, the deltas are not absolutely loyal, a whole concept with the game that makes the deltas heroes is how they are different through experience.

What you say is directly contradicting what is established in AotC.

The whole idea of the deltas is that they are unique and NOT bland order following soldiers, just like the designer's notes say.

Neither are Cody or Bly... why do they follow orders and Delta Squad doesn't?

yep. I dont consider being corrected for not reading "star wars insider" or knowing the Star Wars timeline off by heart that bad. And in doing so, you get off topic, make irrelevant points and generally weaken your argument.

I'm not arguing. I'm stating the facts. It's very silly to say that someone is foolish for correcting something that's blantantly wrong.

im not trying to offend you, im trying to make a point that its the attitude that a decent story and potentially memorable game should be forfeit because starwars insider says they would follow orders, lets make another bland, uninteresting FPS depending entirely on the gameplay mechanics of the first, which were barely enough to keep the game afloat to begin with.

I'm not offended by anything, but however, I generally don't appreciate it when people post crap directed towards me. Also, I don't see why you think that just because you play as "the bad guys" then the game is going to be lame and boring. Have some faith in the developers. The original Republic Commando was great, so why do you think that the sequel won't be good unless it has YOUR storyline?

Why isnt it plausible? it isnt enough to just say "its not plausible". There's nothing that prevents this idea from being used. The deltas are NOT faceless grunts who follow all orders, the designer of the game and george lucas himself established that.

Give me one example when Delta Squad didn't follow their orders.

Manny C
12-14-2005, 01:03 AM
What you say is directly contradicting what is established in AotC.


No it doesnt. The Deltas are NOT run of the mill clone troopers, its established so clearly by the game, on the website, by george lucas himself. The clone commandos are not conditioned and trained the same way. They say so at the start of the game, and on the website.


Neither are Cody or Bly... why do they follow orders and Delta Squad doesn't?

I don't see why you think that just because you play as "the bad guys" then the game is going to be lame and boring. Have some faith in the developers. The original Republic Commando was great, so why do you think that the sequel won't be good unless it has YOUR storyline?


cody and bly are "commander units", who are still normal clone troopers, but with slightly increased levels of independance, and additional leadership training.


Now ur making huge generalizations. Delta Squad don't "not follow orders", they're more independant and unique, and the way they are raised, their values were placed on brotherhood rather than on absolute loyalty. This whole argument stems from you deeming my idea for a sequel as implausible because the commandos are genetically incapable of ignoring an order, which just isnt true. Despite different origins and so on, the commandos are still humans with the capacity for human decision making, as is established on the RC website:

The clone commandos in particular showed a surprising amount of divergence in thought, personality, and general psychological make-up.

But the Kaminoan scientists viewed all divergence as negative. They expected their clones to be perfect copies of one another. They wanted to recondition the entire batch. However, Jango quickly pointed out that in the case of the commandos, "the sum of the parts makes the whole stronger." Indeed, commando squads with distinct personalities performed better in the Killing House and other critical test situations. The bounty hunter knew instinctively what the scientists could not grasp: the best soldiers are brothers, not clones.


With all this in mind, if the commandos were forced to make a choice between the orders and one of their brothers, the entire game sets up that they would choose their brother, and going the other way undermines the whole complexity of the characters. If anything, not going back for sev is implausible because it goes against the squad's most important values. THAT'S why imperial commando would be a bad idea, not because its not "my idea" or that "playing as the badguys sucks", but because the whole theme behind the squad is that these commandos, under the wishes of jango fett, were designed to value brotherhood over absolute obedience, as it makes better soldiers, and by leaving one of their own behind just because they're ordered to completely contradicts the whole precept behind the game.

Also i apologize if i "insulted your intelligence" but you just didnt seem to be getting the point, so i figured it might be a problem with your brain, lol sorry about that, i know ur not an idiot.

TK-8252
12-14-2005, 01:36 AM
No it doesnt. The Deltas are NOT run of the mill clone troopers, its established so clearly by the game, on the website, by george lucas himself. The clone commandos are not conditioned and trained the same way. They say so at the start of the game, and on the website.

But Cody and Bly aren't run-of-the-mill clones either! Nor are they conditioned and trained the same as regular troopers.

cody and bly are "commander units", who are still normal clone troopers, but with slightly increased levels of independance, and additional leadership training.

To be fair, commandos are just normal Clone Troopers as well, but trained and conditioned very differently from the rest of the troopers. The commandos are identical genetically to the rest of the clones, as are the commanders such as Cody and Bly.

Now ur making huge generalizations. Delta Squad don't "not follow orders", they're more independant and unique, and the way they are raised, their values were placed on brotherhood rather than on absolute loyalty. This whole argument stems from you deeming my idea for a sequel as implausible because the commandos are genetically incapable of ignoring an order, which just isnt true. Despite different origins and so on, the commandos are still humans with the capacity for human decision making, as is established on the RC website:

With all this in mind, if the commandos were forced to make a choice between the orders and one of their brothers, the entire game sets up that they would choose their brother, and going the other way undermines the whole complexity of the characters. If anything, not going back for sev is implausible because it goes against the squad's most important values. THAT'S why imperial commando would be a bad idea, not because its not "my idea" or that "playing as the badguys sucks", but because the whole theme behind the squad is that these commandos, under the wishes of jango fett, were designed to value brotherhood over absolute obedience, as it makes better soldiers, and by leaving one of their own behind just because they're ordered to completely contradicts the whole precept behind the game.

I remember on the loading screen in the game as you leave Kashyyyk in the gunship, it says something to the point of "in the end, duty is more important than brotherhood." I know that's probably way off, but it was meaning that they're loyal to the Republic first, brother second.

so i figured it might be a problem with your brain

Oh THAT makes me feel a lot better.

Manny C
12-14-2005, 02:23 AM
But Cody and Bly aren't run-of-the-mill clones either! Nor are they conditioned and trained the same as regular troopers.
you cant compare them, they're completely different. I dont know much about those guys but id bet they dont have the same emphasis on brotherhood, and that makes all the difference



To be fair, commandos are just normal Clone Troopers as well, but trained and conditioned very differently from the rest of the troopers. The commandos are identical genetically to the rest of the clones, as are the commanders such as Cody and Bly.

Don't you see thats the whole point?? theres more to the clones than their genetics. Through experience, the clone commandos develop completely different "thought, personality, and general psychological make-up." (quoted directly from the RC website) therefore you cant compare them to the normal troopers, nor can you compare them to cody and bly who are also completely different.


I remember on the loading screen in the game as you leave Kashyyyk in the gunship, it says something to the point of "in the end, duty is more important than brotherhood." I know that's probably way off, but it was meaning that they're loyal to the Republic first, brother second.


i dont remember that, ill have to check it out, but it completely contradicts the whole precept of the game.


Oh THAT makes me feel a lot better.

oh wah wah wah, dont accept my apology then

TK-8252
12-14-2005, 02:34 AM
you cant compare them, they're completely different. I dont know much about those guys but id bet they dont have the same emphasis on brotherhood, and that makes all the difference

Friendship and brotherhood is very similar IMO, especially in this case. I mean, technically, it IS friendship, not brotherhood that the clones have. They aren't really brothers.

Don't you see thats the whole point?? theres more to the clones than their genetics. Through experience, the clone commandos develop completely different "thought, personality, and general psychological make-up." (quoted directly from the RC website) therefore you cant compare them to the normal troopers, nor can you compare them to cody and bly who are also completely different.

But Cody has different thought, personality, and general psychological make-up. Yes, I see your point, but to be honest I don't see how it could override your genes that are SPECIFICALLY modified to restrict you from defying orders.

i dont remember that, ill have to check it out, but it completely contradicts the whole precept of the game.

I don't see how it contradicts. The clones were created for the sole purpose of serving the Republic, and to put their personal feelings (such as brotherhood) aside. Surely during training they are taught this as such.

oh wah wah wah, dont accept my apology then

Dude, I was trying to inject some humor into this. Come on. :p

Manny C
12-14-2005, 02:53 AM
Friendship and brotherhood is very similar IMO, especially in this case. I mean, technically, it IS friendship, not brotherhood that the clones have. They aren't really brothers.

They are in the respect that the squad was grouped together and trained together from birth, which is slightly different to a war buddy. Check out the RC website's designers notes, its all in there.


But Cody has different thought, personality, and general psychological make-up. Yes, I see your point, but to be honest I don't see how it could override your genes that are SPECIFICALLY modified to restrict you from defying orders.


Well, according to the RC website, the way they were trained and brought up developed independancy that isnt expected of the clones, so if the writers say thats the case (and keep in mind george lucas had a lot of contribution in the design of the characters), im liable to believe them. It's not unheard of that there's a continuity error for the sake of the story, in fact, George Lucas is pretty notorious for continuity errors.


I don't see how it contradicts. The clones were created for the sole purpose of serving the Republic, and to put their personal feelings (such as brotherhood) aside. Surely during training they are taught this as such.


ill put it as simply as possible. The emphasis in the game is on the squad, and the brotherhood between the squad. Hence the tagline for the game, hence the big long report on their advanced sense of brotherhood and the advantage it gives them in combat, and Jango Fett's insistance on nurturing this sense of brotherhood during their training. It says on the website, "according to Jango Fett, the final product is the sum of its parts", therefore if one gets left behind, its as though a part of them is dead, and leaving one behind contradicts their entire lives of training. Leaving sev behind just doesnt make sense.


Dude, I was trying to inject some humor into this. Come on. :p

miscommunication, happens all the time on forums and msn, sorry.

TK-8252
12-14-2005, 05:14 PM
miscommunication, happens all the time on forums and msn, sorry.

No problem. :p

I think I'm just going to agree to disagree with you, because both of us seem to have exhausted our points and repeating them has gotten tiresome. Don't think that I don't understand your points, because I do, but I stick by my view that the genes are the dominant factor in the equation.

Manny C
12-14-2005, 07:53 PM
alright, fair enough

Alkova Lexis
12-21-2005, 09:09 PM
Actually, LucasArts is staying too quite these days. I think they're gearing up for game surprises. Next year, I think, they should announce KotOR 3, RC 2 and some new SW games.

If they have a KOTOR 3 coming soon, they should expand it to other game consoles. Possibly for the PS2/PS3??

Manny C
12-21-2005, 09:18 PM
ps3? perhaps. Ps2? certainly not. Why go backwards graphically? anyways this isnt a KOTOR 3 discussion there are PLENTLY of those

DS_Vespidbat
12-27-2005, 09:22 PM
technecly manny won he had lots of facts on his.as i read ur post TK-8252 u just rearrange some of his words to mean something different

TK-8252
12-27-2005, 09:24 PM
technecly manny won he had lots of facts on his.as i read ur post TK-8252 u just rearrange some of his words to mean something different

...The hell are you talking about?

Cheech Marin
12-30-2005, 12:52 PM
Erm, why would you want to play as the bad guy?

Joetheeskimo
12-30-2005, 12:54 PM
^ My thoughts as well.

TK-8252
12-30-2005, 05:20 PM
Erm, why would you want to play as the bad guy?

Better question: why not?

Joetheeskimo
12-30-2005, 06:13 PM
Because everybody has a conscience. :p

Manny C
12-30-2005, 06:17 PM
yeah, and because of that, people can relate to good characters, or build a liking to them (this can happen with bad characters as well, but its easily tarnished when the character murders an innocent or does something that reflects his evil nature). By making the characters "evil" they aren't as likable, which undermines Republic commando's coolest feature: it's characters.

TK-8252
12-30-2005, 06:32 PM
"Relate" to characters? "Relate" to clone soldiers fighting giant robots with laser guns in their hands and flying bugs who hit you with sticks and fat lizards with shotguns?

You must live in one crazy world.

But I think a ruthless/murderous character is quite interesting. I mean, lots of people like researching famous dictators like Napolean, Hitler, etc.

Oh yeah and Darth Vader. Who doesn't like Darth Vader? But he did go on a murderous rampage!

M3rl1n
12-31-2005, 01:07 PM
Relation has nothing to do with realities - you can relate to anything and anybody. You can relate to a tree but doesnít mean youíre made of wood.

Thereís also no proof that genetics does, or could play a role in personality traits. Instincts - obviously, but instincts only have so much weight as demonstrated by the taming of extremely dangerous creatures, or in some cases of those same creatures being naturally docile, especially when raised from infancy with care.

The opposite can also be demonstrated when raising a normally docile creature with brutal tactics.

I donít think it would be too much of stretch to assume that one of the prime instincts of most clones is loyalty - which seems plausible. Since most clones are given no independence they never develop personality traits to counter this. This is the way they are raised, this is the way it is. Almost a brainwashed obidence to the leaders of the Republic - of which their is currently only one.

However some clones, including commandos, have been given increased independence to develop unique personalities even more so then the clone commanders we see in the film - the personality of the clone commanders in the film is only a slight variance on the regular trooper (although it's my personal beliefe that the casual manor in which they accept and invoke Order 66 is unrealistic).

But commandos are on the other end of the spectrum, some going so far to alter their voice, and probably appearance. They probably still have the instinct to be loyal to their superiors but itís going to be countered by a strong personality, especially loyalty to each other, and what they believe in, and from what we know the commandos seem like generally good guys.

Leaving Sev had nothing to do with blind obedience and everything to do with the fact that sometimes the mission does come first - in any military organization - and since Delta has been given no reason to doubt the Republic they obey orders, especially since itís coming from Yoda - if Yoda is involved and requires something you know itís important.

And rightly so because from what Yoda says it seems that securing Kashyyyk will require them to be on hand - if they had gone rouge and gone after Sev they could have crippled the mission.

If their loyalties or belief in the Republic was shaken I could easily see them breaking from it. Right now they believe in what the Republic is doing and stands for. Again, rightly so since the Seps are the bad guys, and have aptly demonstrated that fact.

MachineCult
01-28-2006, 09:07 AM
All that writing really wasn't necessary, most of it wasn't even relavent. M3rl1n, how would a person relate to a tree?

GabRaz
01-28-2006, 04:36 PM
First time post so bear with me,

First off, from what I've read, Clone Commandos and ARC Troopers tend to be very independent thinkers, for example Ion Team (Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader) disobeyed Order 66. It's likely that a few other units may just have disobeyed orders as well.

Second, I'd like to see more of a choice, much like KotOR. For example after finding Sev, 38 gets the Order 66 transmition, the group gives their opinions, 40 recommends following orders, Scorch cracks a nervous joke, and Sev just grunts.

It would be your choice whether to follow orders or disobey Order 66. Then you'd either get missions like: hunting Jedi's, finding Separatist survivors, help take control of Kashyyyk (ugh)...or missions like: helping Mon Mothma leave Coruscant, recon and establish a location for a new Rebel base, find plans for B-wing...whatever ties into the EU.

TK-8252
01-28-2006, 04:38 PM
for example Ion Team (Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader) disobeyed Order 66.

EU BS; disregard as canon.

Manny C
01-29-2006, 12:59 AM
republic commando is EU, tons of features of the prequels came from EU as well so u cant just disregard something because its EU.

TK-8252
01-29-2006, 01:21 AM
republic commando is EU, tons of features of the prequels came from EU as well so u cant just disregard something because its EU.

EU that conflicts directly with the movies cannot be considered canon.

Here's a couple examples:

- Darth Maul surviving
- Palpatine "coming back from the dead" (the whole clone fiasco)

GabRaz
01-29-2006, 04:35 AM
Umm, aren't practically all Star Wars games considered EU?

DF, JK, JKII, KotOR 1/2, X-Wing Alliance, X-wing/Tie fighter, the Roque Squadron series, upcoming Empire at War the list goes on, you can even consider Rebellion as EU or Republic Commando.

As far as canon goes, officially only the movies, movie novelizations, radio dramas, and the occsional visual dictionaries are considered canon by Lucasarts/Lucasfilm; that's a very limited period of time to work with. As far as I know most (if not all) EU novels (including the Dark Empire series) were given the go ahead by Lucas or Lucasfilm. So I don't see why you're complaining.

You know...if you don't like it, you're free not to play.

Joetheeskimo
01-29-2006, 09:24 AM
First time post so bear with me,

First off, from what I've read, Clone Commandos and ARC Troopers tend to be very independent thinkers, for example Ion Team (Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader) disobeyed Order 66. It's likely that a few other units may just have disobeyed orders as well.

Second, I'd like to see more of a choice, much like KotOR. For example after finding Sev, 38 gets the Order 66 transmition, the group gives their opinions, 40 recommends following orders, Scorch cracks a nervous joke, and Sev just grunts.

It would be your choice whether to follow orders or disobey Order 66. Then you'd either get missions like: hunting Jedi's, finding Separatist survivors, help take control of Kashyyyk (ugh)...or missions like: helping Mon Mothma leave Coruscant, recon and establish a location for a new Rebel base, find plans for B-wing...whatever ties into the EU.

Ooooooh, now that's a cool idea.

TK-8252
01-29-2006, 03:45 PM
As far as canon goes, officially only the movies, movie novelizations, radio dramas, and the occsional visual dictionaries are considered canon by Lucasarts/Lucasfilm

Don't make Kurgan come in here with the "canon chart."

As far as I know most (if not all) EU novels (including the Dark Empire series) were given the go ahead by Lucas or Lucasfilm. So I don't see why you're complaining.

So I guess the whole "Darth Maul surviving" and "Palpatine coming back from the dead" can be considered canon? Absolutely not. Those things conflict directly with the movies. Just as having "rogue commandos" as suggested for a sequel.

You know...if you don't like it, you're free not to play.

Don't like what?

GabRaz
01-29-2006, 05:33 PM
So I guess the whole "Darth Maul surviving" and "Palpatine coming back from the dead" can be considered canon? Absolutely not. Those things conflict directly with the movies. Just as having "rogue commandos" as suggested for a sequel.

I never said they were canon, I said they were approved by Lucasfilm even if they "conflict directly with the movies"; I mentioned earlier what was considered canon by Lucas, yet that hasn't stopped him from approving other storylines which may or may not tie into the movies

I still don't understand why you have something against players wanting Delta Squad to join the rebellion (or at least have the choice).

Much like Merlin mentioned Delta seems to be undeniably loyal to the Republic (the number of times it's alluded to in the game is funny), it looks to me that Delta considers the safety of the Republic their number one priority, eliminating the Jedi would seem to only weaken the Republic, especially considering they've been the front line leaders during the Clone Wars. Even if they follow Order 66 in the beginning (because "it's in their genes"), the dissolution of the Republic and the creation of the Empire should at least make them think twice about where their loyalties belong, considering they've been "created for the sole purpose of serving the Republic".

On a personal level, I don't think I'd enjoy a game where I'm hunting Jedi's or anti-empirial forces; I've played Kotor1/2 over 3 times each, everytime it was the same, I couldn't bring myself to becoming a Sith, the same for JK (for some reason it was different in Tie fighter).


Don't like what?

A game where Delta goes Rebel (if it ever turns out that way).

TK-8252
01-29-2006, 06:20 PM
I never said they were canon, I said they were approved by Lucasfilm even if they "conflict directly with the movies"; I mentioned earlier what was considered canon by Lucas, yet that hasn't stopped him from approving other storylines which may or may not tie into the movies

Ah, my bad.

I still don't understand why you have something against players wanting Delta Squad to join the rebellion (or at least have the choice).

Because it goes against the established storyline, as well as the movies.

On a personal level, I don't think I'd enjoy a game where I'm hunting Jedi's or anti-empirial forces; I've played Kotor1/2 over 3 times each, everytime it was the same, I couldn't bring myself to becoming a Sith, the same for JK (for some reason it was different in Tie fighter).

What's the difference if you're killing the "good guys" or not? In Republic Commando you're fighting for Palpatine against people who are trying to take him out of power. You're a bad guy, even if you're fighting bad guys as well. This idea that people will only play a game if you're the great hero fighting against the forces of evil is really lousy. Suck it up and be a bad guy!

A game where Delta goes Rebel (if it ever turns out that way).

It would never turn out that way. What with the whole Republic Commando game for cell phones where you hunt down Jedi and all.

Kurgan
01-29-2006, 11:43 PM
Honestly I don't see a problem with making a game that conflicts with canon as long as it's good. We've been able to play as the "bad guys" for real (rather than just bad guy skins in some random way) in only a few games, but most of them have been awesome (TIE Fighter, Jedi Knight).

TK-8252
01-29-2006, 11:45 PM
Honestly I don't see a problem with making a game that conflicts with canon as long as it's good.

Depends on what your definition of "is" "good" is. A Star Wars game that conflicts with Star Wars isn't good.

Kurgan
01-29-2006, 11:49 PM
Umm, aren't practically all Star Wars games considered EU?

DF, JK, JKII, KotOR 1/2, X-Wing Alliance, X-wing/Tie fighter, the Roque Squadron series, upcoming Empire at War the list goes on, you can even consider Rebellion as EU or Republic Commando.

As far as canon goes, officially only the movies, movie novelizations, radio dramas, and the occsional visual dictionaries are considered canon by Lucasarts/Lucasfilm; that's a very limited period of time to work with. As far as I know most (if not all) EU novels (including the Dark Empire series) were given the go ahead by Lucas or Lucasfilm. So I don't see why you're complaining.

You know...if you don't like it, you're free not to play.

Technically that's not how it works. There's levels of canon. All officially liscensed Star Wars materials not labelled "Infinities" (or the first 21 issues of Star Wars Tales) is canon. Even if parts of the source get thrown out or retconned by later sources, for the most part it's retained. The movies are the absolute highest level of canon, and the most recent versions which represent "how Lucas views the films today" (ie: the 2004 versions trump any previous versions, and if he makes another new version that will trump the current editions). The novelisations, screenplays and radio dramas are also spinning out of those original stories, and expand the story where they don't conflict. That's the "G-Level canon" (ie: George Lucas canon, his own stories). Everything else beyond that is C-Level canon (continuity canon). The term "EU" is somewhat confusing, because technically it applies to EVERYTHING that's not in the movies themselves that George Lucas didn't write himself. He approves everything that gets liscensed obviously, but basically EU stuff is C-Level for the most part.

You can't count a lot of the stuff in games as canon, ie: player actions and game mechanics that were done for balance or challenge. Obviously you can't consider that game of FFA you played with your buddies as somehow fitting into continuity. But basically single player storylines for games are just as legit as any EU comic or novel. It's when it conflicts with a "higher" source that there's a problem.

Leeland "Tasty Tastee" Chee is in charge of the Holocron, a Lucas sanctioned database that works out continuity issues. Of course Lucas himself is always free to contradict stuff and force everyone to catch up.

So yes, there are outright mistakes in some sources, you just ignore those, but everything salvagable stays. So stuff from the Holiday Special even fits in there someplace, so I'm told. ;)

TK-8252
01-29-2006, 11:52 PM
Kurgan always feels the need to educate people on the various levels of canon... just for god's sake don't get the chart. :p

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 12:56 AM
I mean good gameplay. Gameplay is king. I could care less if it "really happened" in Star Wars.

I mean let's face it, there's been a lot of Star Wars games made that couldn't possibly have happened in continuity. Some were bad, others less so. But unless you're TK-8525, continuity isn't the #1 factor in whether or not a game is "good." ;)

I'm teasing but also a bit serious!

As for the canon thing (go ahead, somebody post the "Canon Cannon" graphic, I dare ya!), as long as people make posts clearly demonstrating their confusion, I'll be happy to explain it... ;)

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 01:03 AM
I mean that continuity and respect for Star Wars are factors that influence if a game is "good" or not. If the developers of a Star Wars game do something to cater specifically to fanboys, such as having "rogue commandos," that disrespects the established canon, it's not a good game. The developers would be relying on fanboys to buy, buy, buy rather than producing a decent storyline.

Even if it's the best gameplay ever, if a Republic Commando sequel went in the wrong direction such as having "rogue commandos," I would boycott. It's a clear money-grab and shows no effort to stay respectful to Star Wars.

GabRaz
01-30-2006, 05:00 AM
Technically that's not how it works. There's levels of canon....

Yeah, I know, I know, I've read Mike Wong's website. lol

Because it goes against the established storyline, as well as the movies.

But that's the whole problem, there were no commandos in any of the movies, you can't exactly assume they'd react just like any other clone.

In Republic Commando you're fighting for Palpatine against people who are trying to take him out of power.

During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic, they've been tasked with the defense of the Republic; considering their individualism, it's very hard for me to believe their reaction to the creation the Empire, the dissolution of the very thing they were tasked to protect would be something along the lines: "oh no Republic, ok."

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 05:06 AM
But that's the whole problem, there were no commandos in any of the movies, you can't exactly assume they'd react just like any other clone.

They were mentioned in AotC. And the commandos had the exact same genetic modifications as the rest of the clones, and they said in the movie how the clones had been modified specifically for absolute loyalty. Even the highly-independent commanders like Cody who had developed a friendship with their Jedi turned on them and killed them without the slightest hesitation.

During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic

And who's the commander-in-chief of the Republic's army? Palpatine. You're fighting for Palpatine, Sidious, the Sith Lord. Face it, you're evil.

Prime
01-30-2006, 02:19 PM
During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic, they've been tasked with the defense of the Republic; considering their individualism, it's very hard for me to believe their reaction to the creation the Empire, the dissolution of the very thing they were tasked to protect would be something along the lines: "oh no Republic, ok."I believe that the clones are not technically under direct control of Palpatine, they are under control of the Senate.

And who's the commander-in-chief of the Republic's army? Palpatine. You're fighting for Palpatine, Sidious, the Sith Lord. Face it, you're evil.Again, IIRC they are technically fighting for the Senate.

MachineCult
01-30-2006, 03:58 PM
And who's the commander-in-chief of the Republic's army? Palpatine. You're fighting for Palpatine, Sidious, the Sith Lord. Face it, you're evil.
You're fighting for the Republic, killing droids, Geonosians and Trandoshan slavers, they're the bad guys, not you.
Before the Empire the Clones were fighting for good, Palpatine wasn't evil, he never gave any "evil" orders until order 66.

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 04:43 PM
I believe that the clones are not technically under direct control of Palpatine, they are under control of the Senate.

Again, IIRC they are technically fighting for the Senate.

Not quite right. The RotS visual dictionary says on page 44: "Clone troopers obey the commands of their Jedi generals, but ultimately they answer to Republic Chancellor and commander-in-chief, Palpatine." The clones refer to Palpatine as their Lord.

You're fighting for the Republic

Which is under Palpatine's control.

killing droids, Geonosians and Trandoshan slavers, they're the bad guys, not you.

They're bad, and so are you. You're fighting for the Republic, which is under Palpatine, and you're fighting the Separatists, who are also under Palpatine.

Before the Empire the Clones were fighting for good

Palpatine wasn't good.

Palpatine wasn't evil

Other than that whole "evil Sith Lord plotting to take over the galaxy with the help of his mindless clone slaves" thing. :p

he never gave any "evil" orders until order 66.

Doesn't matter to me. He still used the clones to take over the galaxy and kill the Jedi. And the clones obeyed him... "yes, my Lord."

MachineCult
01-30-2006, 05:17 PM
You have to think of Sidious and Palpatine as different people, until order 66. Palpatine is chancellor of the Republic, the Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). It doesn't matter that the two leaders are the same person. The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good).
Palpatine never gave the Clones orders, he wasn't a General.

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 05:19 PM
You have to think of Sidious and Palpatine as different people, until order 66. Palpatine is chancellor of the Republic, the Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). It doesn't matter that the two leaders are the same person. The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good).

Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, that evil hooded Sith Lord who shoots evil bolts of evil lightning out of his evil fingers.

EVIL!

Palpatine never gave the Clones orders, he wasn't a General.

He was commander-in-chief. He gave Order 66.

MachineCult
01-30-2006, 05:29 PM
Your first statement was pointless, forget Palpatine. If George Bush is evil does that mean your Soldiers are evil?
He gave no orders before order 66, Republic Commando was before order 66. The Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good).

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 05:34 PM
I wouldn't say Bush is evil, but that's a different situation. Palpatine/Sidious is the commander-in-chief, meaning that he has the final say on all military orders. He gives the orders from the top.

And if you think that the Republic is good, then apparently you think Darth Sidious is good. Because Sidious rules the Republic and uses it to take over the galaxy.

MachineCult
01-30-2006, 05:43 PM
I wouldn't say Bush is evil, but that's a different situation. Palpatine/Sidious is the commander-in-chief, meaning that he has the final say on all military orders. He gives the orders from the top.

And if you think that the Republic is good, then apparently you think Darth Sidious is good. Because Sidious rules the Republic and uses it to take over the galaxy.
But the Republic is good. Palpatine wasn't being evil as the Chancellor of the Republic.
Palpatine gave no orders, he wasn't a military man, the Jedi were the Generals they were working under Palpatine, are they evil?
You really don't understand this, he didn't "use the Republic" to take over the galaxy, he took over the Republic and thus ruled the galaxy.

and I meant to say "If George Bush were evil..."

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 05:49 PM
But the Republic is good. Palpatine wasn't being evil as the Chancellor of the Republic.

Why is the Republic good? The Republic gives itself over to Palpatine, the evil Sith Lord. The Republic applauded after the purging of the Jedi. Palpatine gave Order 66 as the Chancellor of the Republic.

Palpatine gave no orders, he wasn't a military man, the Jedi were the Generals they were working under Palpatine, are they evil?

Watch the Clone Wars series and you'll see how Palpatine has direct control over troops in the field.

And the Jedi were not working under Palpatine. They're loyal to the Senate, not to its leader.

You really don't understand this, he didn't "use the Republic" to take over the galaxy, he took over the Republic and thus ruled the galaxy.

He didn't take it over, he was elected and the Republic gave him the power to do everything he did. Just like Hitler.

MachineCult
01-30-2006, 06:01 PM
He is the only evil one, he decieved the senate, and made the Republic think that he needed the powers if the Republic were to stay intact.

He also decieved the senate, and made up a story about the Jedi planning to overthrow the Republic, to the senate, the Jedi were evil (hence applause).
The senate didn't know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they probably wouldn't know what a Sith Lord was, but it didn't matter because the Jedi are evil to them.

Palpatine didn't want to appear evil to the senate, he wanted them to think he was good, and wanted the senate to stay intact so they would agree to the formation of the Empire, to protect the senate from another Rebellion like the Sepratists.

And the Jedi were not working under Palpatine. They're loyal to the Senate, not to its leader.

So who do the Jedi answer to?

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 06:12 PM
He is the only evil one, he decieved the senate, and made the Republic think that he needed the powers if the Republic were to stay intact.

He also decieved the senate, and made up a story about the Jedi planning to overthrow the Republic, to the senate, the Jedi were evil (hence applause).
The senate didn't know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they probably wouldn't know what a Sith Lord was, but it didn't matter because the Jedi are evil to them.

Palpatine didn't want to appear evil to the senate, he wanted them to think he was good, and wanted the senate to stay intact so they would agree to the formation of the Empire, to protect the senate from another Rebellion like the Sepratists.

You have good points. However, even though they were decieved, they DID give this one man so much power that he could do such evil things on their watch. It's like in Nazi Germany.

So who do the Jedi answer to?

The Jedi Council.

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 11:53 PM
Your first statement was pointless, forget Palpatine. If George Bush is evil does that mean your Soldiers are evil?
He gave no orders before order 66, Republic Commando was before order 66. The Republic is the good thing in this whole saga, the Clones are the army of the Republic (good) who are fighting Sidious's Battledroids (evil). The Clones are fighting for the Republic, and given orders by the Jedi (who are the ultimate good guys), in the interests of the Republic (good).

According to the precedent of the Nuremburg Trials of 20th century Earth, the excuse "I was only following orders" was NOT considered valid when you help carry out inhuman orders, such as participating in genocide.

So yes, as long as the soldiers are free agents (ie: capable of distinguishing moral decisions) they are responsible for their own actions, even if the higher up according to military tradition is ultimately "responsible" for the actions of his men. But therein lies the difficulty.

Do the soldiers have the ability to refuse an order? If Palpatine, or the officer says "shoot that man, now" can the soldier refuse? I don't mean, will he be shot by his superior if he disobeys. I mean, is he capable of refusing? If he is, then he is responsible, because he could choose to disobey the illegal or immoral order. Another example is in Vietnam with the Mai Lai massacre. The soldiers were following the orders of their superior, which happened to be illegal (massacreing and raping civilians), but they were still duty bound as human beings and as soldiers to refuse unlawful orders.

But perhaps the Clones have no free will? Perhaps their being "genetically modified to be less independent than their host" means they simply are not mentally capable of refusing the order of a superior? Perhaps Sideous exerts mind control over them through the Dark Side of the Force? Those kinds of things would factor into whether the Clones are actually evil or merely puppets, with a madman pulling their strings.

Sideous/Palpatine (the same individual) was evil because he STARTED the very war he was supposedly waging to protect the Republic from. He deliberately calluded with the enemy prior and during the events in order to create and prosecute the conflict. He could thus have also ended it much sooner than he did, but he chose not to in order to secure his power base. He also worked with agents who attempted assasinations (through Dooku to Jango and Zam) and committed other objectionable acts like kidnapping and execution of government agents without legal representation (Obi-Wan). He also began construction of weapons of mass (world) destruction for use against his own populance (gee, that sounds like one of the reasons we said we were going after Saddam, to toss in the Bush metaphor, though it's not an outright allegory, I don't buy that for a second). Now if you want to argue that his enemies simply deserved to die or be enslaved, that's your business, but to the majority of sane people, those sorts of actions are what we'd call "not nice." ;)

Was the Clone Army for the Senate? I don't think so, and not just because Palpatine "Is the Senate" (as he says in Episode III) but because with his Emergency Powers granted to him by the Senate, he has the power to create the Army, which is his "first act" with his new powers. Also he gives an order and they obey it with "It will be done, My Lord" not "I better get clearance from the Senate first..." The Jedi are generals, but apparently Sideous trumps their authority. And he can give the order AS Sideous, notice.

Anyway, back to Palpatine. Are we saying he's not evil because the Senate gave him his power? Let's not forget that he got their approval by deceiving them in the first place by creating a war against them and pretending not to be part of it! Yes, he did corrupt certain Senaters behind the scenes, and certainly his Dark Side powers had something to do with it at least partially, but still. If the Senaters knew the real story beforehand, do you think they would have handed him all that power? I think you'd have been hard pressed to prevent a mob from lynching him on the Senate floor!

Are the Battle droids evil? I think they are programmed to obey orders, though they seem to have some type of free will (at least self awareness and desire for preservation of self and comrades). Perhaps they are not capable of disobeying orders, but that scene with Grievous in the Invisible Hand makes me wonder. They too were following evil orders from an evil commander, but still. Droids can even disobey their programming (ie: Threepio impersonating a deity) though perhaps different kinds of droids have different levels of restraint and accountability, etc. The various Seperatist leaders may definately have been evil themselves, though not nearly as evil as Dooku and Sideous who were duping them into getting themselves killed so that Palpatine could attain control over the galaxy.

TK-8252
01-30-2006, 11:56 PM
Yeah, Kurgan basically said what I was trying to get at, just he did it way better and in six paragraphs. :p

Kurgan
01-30-2006, 11:58 PM
;) Thanks!

I'm a little backlogged on reading messages in this thread (which really took off while I was away!). Interesting points raise of course! Anyhow, somebody said on here about how the Deltas are supposed to be more independent than normal clones. Fine, granted. However, in real life, we have soldiers who are not genetically modified to be "less independent" obeying all kinds of crazy orders. Examples already given above, the Nazis, Mai Lai soldiers, and numerous other examples in history. Why do they do it? Peer pressure, fear of punishment, personal greed/sadism/bloodlust/racism/patriotism, "end justifies the means morality," etc. Being decieved and not thinking about it (self decieved even) certainly helps too I'm sure.

Also, I edited my post just as you were posting, I made a slight typo (but an important one), which is now corrected!

Kurgan
01-31-2006, 12:09 AM
Yeah, I know, I know, I've read Mike Wong's website. lol


Just a quick note, it's important to realize that Mr. Wong's website (a fansite of course, not official, despite some very informative and interesting content!) is somewhat out of date in parts. Some of his early pages that discuss canon sound as if it's only the movies, scripts, novelisations and radio dramas that are on one level and everything else on the other. It doesn't mention the S/G/C system that was introduced later (though this is quoted on his forums extensively). Basically it's Leeland Chee, so one need not take Wong's word for it, he's merely reporting, not making policy. ;) Just thought I'd clarify that for others even if you already know!


But that's the whole problem, there were no commandos in any of the movies, you can't exactly assume they'd react just like any other clone.


As others have said, yes, definately in ROTS. In AOTC they point off screen when Mace Windu lands in the assembly area and say "we've got some special commando units awaiting your orders" and we don't actually get to see them (tease!).

During the whole game there's not one mention of Palpatine, Sidious, or Supreme Chancellor, it's always been Republic...Republic...Republic, they've been tasked with the defense of the Republic; considering their individualism, it's very hard for me to believe their reaction to the creation the Empire, the dissolution of the very thing they were tasked to protect would be something along the lines: "oh no Republic, ok."

On my Boot Camp page (linked off of www.republiccommando.net incidentally!), I made a point of demonstrating how easily you can use propaganda to make it sound like your cause is just, even if you've made a complete reversal of what you previously said. Old stuff. ;)

Elukka
01-31-2006, 11:12 AM
About the commandos...

What the Database says:
The clone commando emerged as something "in-between" the two extremes of ARC trooper and clone trooper

The ARC trooper was just about completely independent, while the clone trooper would have a real hard time disobeying an order. So, a commando is something in-between.


What Wookieepedia says:
When Order 66 was issued by Emperor Palpatine at the end of the Clone Wars, some commando units refused to fire on their commanding Jedi, thus showing that even the commandos trained to replace the almost completely independent ARC troopers were, in fact, also independent themselves.

So they could go back for Sev, if they'd like to take the risk and wanted to do that.

Oh, and for a possible sequel, there are also the Storm Commandos. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/stormcommandos/eu.html)

Kurgan
01-31-2006, 01:40 PM
Of course you have to ask which source the Star Wars Wiki (Wookieepedia) cites to back up that comment, since Wiki itself is not in any way official.

Good point about the ARCs. I always thought they were a bit silly, but oh well. TK spent about a billion posts arguing that there were no ARCs in Episode III, that they'd all been retired. So take that up with him I guess. ;)

TK-8252
01-31-2006, 05:22 PM
The ARC trooper was just about completely independent, while the clone trooper would have a real hard time disobeying an order. So, a commando is something in-between.

The commandos had the exact same genetic modifications as the rest of the Clone Troopers. The ONLY clones to my knowledge who lacked modification were the ARC Troopers.

What Wookieepedia says:

Wookieepedia is not always credible, and in this case, it is not.

So they could go back for Sev, if they'd like to take the risk and wanted to do that.

No, they couldn't. They already got in the gunship and left.

Kurgan
02-01-2006, 02:10 AM
Somebody want to re-edit the Wiki article to make those corrections? I would but I'm not as knowledgeable about the EU stuff as some people here...

TK-8252
02-01-2006, 08:58 AM
Somebody want to re-edit the Wiki article to make those corrections? I would but I'm not as knowledgeable about the EU stuff as some people here...

I'm not even going to bother. Someone will just come and mess it up again. Plus, there's just too many problems on wiki with the clone articles, especially the Episode III ones. Then there's the wiki that says Plagueis invented Anakin, and Anakin isn't the Chosen One, etc., which we all know is wrong.

Kurgan
02-01-2006, 06:16 PM
I'm not even going to bother. Someone will just come and mess it up again. Plus, there's just too many problems on wiki with the clone articles, especially the Episode III ones. Then there's the wiki that says Plagueis invented Anakin, and Anakin isn't the Chosen One, etc., which we all know is wrong.


True, but you can "revert" it back again. It's true there are some "posting wars" that go on occasionally on SW Wiki. Basically I've found that if you cite your sources in the edit people are more likely to accept it. For example I did this when I corrected the release date for Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (It was listed incorrectly as Sept. 30th, when in fact it's Oct 9th, 1997).

Post your changes here and the entry links and we'll "get your back" if you like. ;) Right guys?

Elukka
02-02-2006, 04:24 AM
The commandos being something in-between was from the database. Also, there were commandos refusing to kill jedi (http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Ion_Team). This wasn't in the movies, though.

TK-8252
02-02-2006, 08:56 AM
The commandos being something in-between was from the database.

Yes and absolute loyalty was in the movie.

Also, there were commandos refusing to kill jedi (http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Ion_Team). This wasn't in the movies, though.

Exactly, it's wiki.

Kurgan
02-02-2006, 08:19 PM
Yes and absolute loyalty was in the movie.



Exactly, it's wiki.

Just to clarify something. Just because it's in Wiki doesn't mean it's always a LIE, but we should take it with a grain of salt (hey, it's wiki!). Meaning, for a Star Wars "fact" I expect it to be backed up by an official source, or else I'm not buying it. ;)

TK-8252
02-02-2006, 09:11 PM
Just to clarify something. Just because it's in Wiki doesn't mean it's always a LIE, but we should take it with a grain of salt (hey, it's wiki!). Meaning, for a Star Wars "fact" I expect it to be backed up by an official source, or else I'm not buying it. ;)

A lot of Star Wars wiki regarding the clones is inaccurate. Many rumors and other falsehoods that have since been disproven have not been corrected yet.

{DHU}Screed
02-03-2006, 02:28 AM
I'm kinda wondering if there is going to be a sequal as well. I absolutely loved the game. One of the best tactical shooters i've played. Story line was awsome, and I really got to liking my squadmates. A good emotional connection is made with your "brothers" the further you go into the game.

At the end I was wanting to go and find Sev, no matter what, then the game ended......... I was left hanging on what happened to Sev and the rest of Delta squad after the clone wars. Made me a sad Jawa :(

darth_magnus
02-03-2006, 05:03 AM
the higher ranking clones (commanders, commandos, ARCs) had more independance than the average clone, in order for more advanced military tactics. the commandos were a result of an experiment by the kaminoans in creating stronger group tactics. the commandos had a strong feeling of brotherhood since the other three commandos were the only other clones they really knew. when thinking about it like this, it is entirely possible for a scenario such as the one presented in the book Dark Lord.

Kurgan
02-03-2006, 06:06 PM
A lot of Star Wars wiki regarding the clones is inaccurate. Many rumors and other falsehoods that have since been disproven have not been corrected yet.

I know that. I'm saying some of the info may be correct, but I'll look for a backup citation from an official source for every "wiki fact" rather than taking wiki itself at face value. I think we both agree that one can't expect "canon" from Wikipedia/Star Wars Wiki. That's why I suggested people in the know (like us) go an correct the mistakes when we see them, citing official sources so that some dunce can't just come along and change it, with his fake supershadow info or whatever. ;)

For example, say "it's this, as cited in the ROTS Visual Dictionary p. 25" or something like that. If not in the wiki body itself, then in the comments for the history (when you submit your edit).

TK-8252
02-03-2006, 08:28 PM
when thinking about it like this, it is entirely possible for a scenario such as the one presented in the book Dark Lord.

Except that the clones are all taught to be suspicious of the Jedi because they'll one day be a threat to the Republic, so the clones defying Order 66 goes against all the principals that the clones stand for.

Red Five
02-03-2006, 10:59 PM
EU that conflicts directly with the movies cannot be considered canon.

Here's a couple examples:

- Darth Maul surviving
- Palpatine "coming back from the dead" (the whole clone fiasco)

For the record Maul's surviving was infinities as it was in Star Wars:Visionaries which as far as I remember had the Infinities label. However even though I'm an EU fan for the most part I have to agree with you on Palpatine's ressurection, I prefer to think that it was just a clone of him that was insane.

Anyways as far as Republic Commando 2 would go, I think that it makes far more sense to just do Imperial Commando because while in Dark Lord it did say some clone commandos disobeyed, they're an exception not a rule. Thus far the only clones to have disobeyed were a single clone that was stranded on a planet with no one knowing and Ion Squad which was the squad in Dark Lord and I'm not sure how they justified that one. That said, it really would be truer to the Star Wars galaxy's rules in my opinion to have Delta Squad become Stormtroopers/Storm Commandos. However they'd be around 20 by the time of A New Hope which means they'd have aged signifigantly thanks to their quickened aging. So I think that if they want to do a sequel with Delta Squad again, they should make Imperial Commando either starting with Order 66 or right after Episode 3.

TK-8252
02-03-2006, 11:02 PM
For the record Maul's surviving was infinities as it was in Star Wars:Visionaries which as far as I remember had the Infinities label.

Ah. Thanks for the correction. I can sleep better tonight. :)

Kurgan
02-04-2006, 12:18 AM
Why would it make more sense to make the clones "suspicous" of the Jedi from day one? They are supposed to be "totally obedient" and they even make friends with the Jedi. Why not tell them "kill the Jedi, just wait until we give the Order 66, and pretend to be their friends and fight and die for them until then." I mean, c'mon!

It isn't so far fetched to think that these guys are like sleeper agents and it only takes a Sith Lord to reach into their minds/genetic programming and make it happen. It's like a backdoor command code. Having them dislike the Jedi "all along" is sillier.

Do these guys really need to have an emotional motivation for everything? They're depicted as tools and slaves. They do what they're told, by the person in charge. Automatons, robots, mindless drones. Even Droids are like that. They crack jokes and exhibit intelligent behavior, but ultimately somebody else is pushing the buttons and they're made to comply, not through persuasion or threats, but through CONTROL.

TK-8252
02-04-2006, 12:55 AM
Why would it make more sense to make the clones "suspicous" of the Jedi from day one? They are supposed to be "totally obedient" and they even make friends with the Jedi. Why not tell them "kill the Jedi, just wait until we give the Order 66, and pretend to be their friends and fight and die for them until then." I mean, c'mon!

They're supposed to be totally obedient to the Republic. The Jedi Order is a separate organization. Now I don't know how canon this is, but in SWBF2, the storyline following the clones is that they've been taught to be suspicious of the Jedi, even if they do cooperate with them and even befriend some.

Again, it is SWBF2, but as far as I can tell it doesn't contradict any canon. Sidious saying "the time has come" when issuing Order 66 seems to me that the clones have been prepared for the Jedi's "betrayal" for a while.

Red Five
02-04-2006, 01:05 AM
They're supposed to be totally obedient to the Republic. The Jedi Order is a separate organization. Now I don't know how canon this is, but in SWBF2, the storyline following the clones is that they've been taught to be suspicious of the Jedi, even if they do cooperate with them and even befriend some.

Again, it is SWBF2, but as far as I can tell it doesn't contradict any canon. Sidious saying "the time has come" when issuing Order 66 seems to me that the clones have been prepared for the Jedi's "betrayal" for a while.

The other way this has been done is that with Order 66 just being one of the many ones, they learned it as a unlikely to be used but possibly necessary plan just in case a Jedi commander's judgement was to be comprimised in some way that required elimination. So the Clones really were close friends with the Jedi, but as far as they knew the Jedi were now traitors to the Republic and that is where their loyalty lies so they will do what they have to.

darth_magnus
02-06-2006, 05:01 AM
as far as SWBF2 goes, some of the events in the game just dont fit in the movies. like how could the 501st be on utapau at the same time as they were on coruscant ? O_o

TK-8252
02-06-2006, 05:12 AM
as far as SWBF2 goes, some of the events in the game just dont fit in the movies. like how could the 501st be on utapau at the same time as they were on coruscant ? O_o

Well, the "official" explanation for that is detachments of the 501st were spread all throughout the galaxy, assisting other legions and going on secret missions for Palpatine.

darth_magnus
02-17-2006, 02:07 AM
hey, i had an idea for a sequel (sorry if this has already been thought of...lol)

the other ideas ive heard have been about the whole squad returning, but what if Sev is rescued by a jedi, or something? and the sequel is based all around Sev, like possibly leading a team of Rebel Commandos. I think it'd be sweet, lol.

TK-8252
02-17-2006, 02:10 AM
and the sequel is based all around Sev, like possibly leading a team of Rebel Commandos. I think it'd be sweet, lol.

Um, you'd mean Clone Commandos. Rebels won't be around for a couple more decades.

Darth_Malak02
03-02-2006, 10:34 PM
The game ends with the Republic fleet arriving at Kashyyyk, which takes place DURING Episode 3.


How do we know that there wasn't another battle on kashyyyk that we don't know about...

Kurgan
03-10-2006, 06:28 PM
The conversation in ROTS with the Jedi Council makes it sound like this the first time they'd needed to go in there to help. Who knows, but it seems like anything that big would have been noticed.

TK-8252
03-10-2006, 06:32 PM
How do we know that there wasn't another battle on kashyyyk that we don't know about...

Well, it is pretty hard to hide a huge ****ing battle.

Either that or the Republic does a damn good job covering **** up.

WarHawk109
03-15-2006, 04:50 PM
The game ends with the Republic fleet arriving at Kashyyyk, which takes place DURING Episode 3.
There have been a number of times during the clone wars that Republic fleets have been to Kashyyyk.

TK-8252
03-15-2006, 05:03 PM
There have been a number of times during the clone wars that Republic fleets have been to Kashyyyk.

Um, but how many times have they launched a full-scale invasion as the advisor says they're doing?

WarHawk109
03-15-2006, 05:17 PM
Um, but how many times have they launched a full-scale invasion as the advisor says they're doing?
At least twice that I know of.

TK-8252
03-15-2006, 05:22 PM
At least twice that I know of.

There was only one Republic invasion of Kashyyyk during the Clone Wars, and it was the one in RotS and at the end of RC.

WarHawk109
03-15-2006, 05:25 PM
There was only one Republic invasion of Kashyyyk during the Clone Wars, and it was the one in RotS and at the end of RC.
Nope, play Clone Wars for the Xbox/GC/PS2

TK-8252
03-15-2006, 05:43 PM
Nope, play Clone Wars for the Xbox/GC/PS2

First of all, that took place on a moon of Kashyyyk. Hard to call it a "full-scale invasion" when they don't set a damn foot on the planet itself.

And here's what sources say regarding Delta Squad at the Battle of Kashyyyk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kashyyyk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Squad
http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Battle_of_Kashyyyk_%28Clone_Wars%29
http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Delta_Squad
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1738049
http://www.ugo.com/channels/games/features/republiccommando/epilogue.asp
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7995/Star-Wars-Episode-III-Leadin/

I could post more, but I think I've proved my point.

Kurgan
03-16-2006, 03:39 AM
There's those RC novels too. Which I don't plan to read...

Joetheeskimo
03-18-2006, 07:32 PM
I own both, and they're very good.

magna mandaloe
03-27-2006, 11:31 PM
Lol new SW games coming this year!

LGSW 2

EAW Hoth: Our finest hour

BF 3

KOTOR 3

SWG: Journey to Bespin

RC 2

Manny C
03-27-2006, 11:55 PM
yeh i wish

Kurgan
03-31-2006, 07:49 PM
Well E3 is just around the corner... ;)

JokotoFett
04-11-2006, 11:46 PM
Yea, there is a sequel in the making. I read an article that said it's going to be shown at the E3 convention this year.

Sev07
02-20-2007, 12:20 AM
probably because the rebellion hadnt been founded yet.
Also ur not proving anything with that first comment, i already said it didnt have much of a story.



which makes it all more plausible that the deltas could stay good should they be out of contact when the order is given.



bad rhetoric, mate. Makes it look like u cant stay on topic or you dont have a clear idea of what the topic is.


its all circumstances, they followed the order because they were there to hear it, the same thing would happen with the deltas. My idea is to use something called "decent writing", ie use of things like "plot devices" and "constructed circumstance" in order to keep the "protagonists" on the side of good. If im going too fast let me know.




watch the scene again, the characters are conflicted about the decision, there isnt a resolution at the end of the game, its left OPEN, something that writers do so that it's possible to continue the story should they decide to make a sequel. Its really not that difficult. 38, the commander, is conflicted about the decision, and his sense of comradery and leader's kinship with his troops overrides his loyalty and he tells the pilot "take us back down" and the pilot, being a regular clone trooper given an order by a superior officer, does so. Advisor comes in the comlink "38, im reading that your dropship is returning to the surface, what are you doing?" 38 turns OFF his commlink. Scorch, the most independant seeming, does the same, and 40, who is still conflicted, but still follows the squad, does too. As they are landing, a loose anti air shot hits the dropship and it crashes. The game starts, and you take control of 38, who recomposes himself, and the first part of the level would be getting used to the controls and finding scorch and fixer, much like in the first game. From there, they need to find a command console to find anything about sev on the database, and pinpoint his location.

At this point, the game is set up for a level that involves fighting through kashyyyk and finding sev. DURING WHICH TIME order 66 is given around the galaxies, while the deltas are out of contact, and thus do not receive the order. This is a possible way in which THOUGHT OUT scripting can properly get around all of your easily avoidable issues by using plot devices, setting up the game for a compelling, and enjoyable story in which the protagonists REMAIN protagonists and don't turn to the empire, and thus the dark side.

if that's too complicated for you then maybe the gaming industry is doomed to mindless shooters with no decent plot progression or unique likable characters.


I would love to play this game. If there is a sequel and Sev isn't in it, then i'm not sure i even wanna play it

Commander Cody
03-02-2007, 09:14 PM
I'm all up for that sequal. And they don't join the Empire because of the drastic change and remain loyalists.

TK-8252
03-03-2007, 12:59 AM
I'm all up for that sequal. And they don't join the Empire because of the drastic change and remain loyalists.

Well, that wouldn't make sense though. All the clones didn't "join the Empire." They BECAME the Empire.

luke_katarn
05-04-2007, 07:55 PM
I think a non delta squad commando game is in need, I do really like Delta squad. But I think they are done....Sev is dead :(

shadowtrooper69
05-05-2007, 07:22 PM
we don't know if sevs dead. besides, who knows they might bring him back in a knew book or a sequel.

luke_katarn
05-05-2007, 08:19 PM
Your right he is alive still but is in SWG ;)

AssKicker479
05-12-2007, 03:01 PM
how about 38 and the other agreeing one (not too good at remebering names) grab parachutes and jump, while the other one stays
they get sev, yadda yadda miss order 66, join rebellion yadda yadda, later they meet old commando in empire suit and thats all i came up with by now

TK if the commandos are as obedient as you say they wouldnt even be arguing, so i dont get your "impossible" crap

Titanius Anglesmith
05-12-2007, 09:57 PM
TK if the commandos are as obedient as you say they wouldnt even be arguing, so i dont get your "impossible" crap
They may not like their orders, but they follow them. As it says at the end of the game, "The painful reality of the Republic Commando is that duty comes before brotherhood."

And what would be their motivation for joining the Rebels anyway? What could be so important that they would turn on their allies? Besides, the Rebellion wasn't officially formed directly after the the Empire was. How many years do you expect to be between RC and RC 2?

CLONECOMMANDER501
05-12-2007, 11:57 PM
If LA did make a RC, they would make so much money that they would need documents to make sure that the money wasn't illegal :lol:

FieryDove
05-18-2007, 11:55 AM
I like Manny C's idea on a sequel.

I would love to see RC2 but I'd want to play with delta squad again and yes, rescue Sev.

I would think if they went off to rescue, the commanders would not be too happy about that and either mark them rogue, kill them, want to mind-wipe/reprogram them so maybe that would be a reason for them siding against the empire?

Anyhow, it would be great to see RC2 and a Kotor3. I think those will be on my Christmas wishlists...sadly forever as Lucasarts doesn't seem to be interested in continuing these.

Just a side-note, I generally don't care for shooters, but this game was fun as it was for friends. Intelligent squadmates with some personality and easy squad controls made a lot of non-shooter fans play this game. We bought several copies here. :)

RCjango_2857
06-04-2007, 07:39 PM
ummm.... they came out with republic commando: order 66 for the cell phone... it sucked.

Porpax
06-06-2007, 05:38 PM
According to the precedent of the Nuremburg Trials of 20th century Earth, the excuse "I was only following orders" was NOT considered valid when you help carry out inhuman orders, such as participating in genocide.

So yes, as long as the soldiers are free agents (ie: capable of distinguishing moral decisions) they are responsible for their own actions, even if the higher up according to military tradition is ultimately "responsible" for the actions of his men. But therein lies the difficulty.

Do the soldiers have the ability to refuse an order? If Palpatine, or the officer says "shoot that man, now" can the soldier refuse? I don't mean, will he be shot by his superior if he disobeys. I mean, is he capable of refusing? If he is, then he is responsible, because he could choose to disobey the illegal or immoral order.

I had hoped to read to the end of this thread before responding but this is just TOO fascinating. Excellent points, Kurgan. One big ol' dis I have with George Lucas is that the transition from Republic to Empire is simply too easy. You can't sway a population the size of the SW galaxy by having one guy just "take over"; he would have to
a. continue to use the language of the Republic as did Caesar and Augustus, as did Hitler, as have done other leaders
b. use some excuse cataclysmic enough to convince the populace that they needed to place full, autonomous power in him, change their way of living to be more reliant on imperial power, and work together to stamp out rebellion in every form.

What could do that? I say that the transfer to Imperial power occurred due to a technological crash of magnificent proportions (like an EmP blast). What if, when the droids were wiped out,
1. the wiping out was due to an EMP or similar thing that shut down a technologically advanced civilization
2. b/c the droids were originally the sole mnemes of technological knowledge, much of that knowledge was lost
3. the terror at the end of the battle with the droids was so intense that no one in the Republic wanted to go near the chance of droids having so much power in the future.

Porpax
06-06-2007, 05:49 PM
What an odd "Republic" Lucas contrived where the bulk of its military population is a bunch of slaves. I like the sleeper cell analysis, though. That seems pretty obvious b/c if Jedi can read minds a simple grunt would have a hard time concealing his dislike.

Gargoyle King
06-06-2007, 06:25 PM
EAW Hoth: Our finest hour

BF 3

KOTOR 3

SWG: Journey to Bespin

RC 2

Battlefront III a definately possibility, maybe RC II but the rest? Time will only tell....

CLONECOMMANDER501
06-07-2007, 04:18 PM
Well, LA is booked up with three hard-to-make games until November so there no chance in hell they will make a Rc2 in this time.

Porpax
06-08-2007, 05:13 PM
Well, LA is booked up with three hard-to-make games until November so there no chance in hell they will make a Rc2 in this time.

Let me help them:
SWRC Baptism (http://swrcbaptism.blogspot.com/)

CLONECOMMANDER501
06-08-2007, 10:05 PM
Hmmm, who made that site? Tell them I could try making a thremopolaye map.

Porpax
06-09-2007, 09:17 PM
Hmmm, who made that site? Tell them I could try making a thremopolaye map.
Sweet. How would I post it? (it's my site)

CLONECOMMANDER501
06-09-2007, 09:28 PM
I don't know, I'm not a web coder :D

shadowtrooper69
06-23-2007, 02:26 PM
shouldn't this thread be dead by now, its been over a year.

Night_Ninja
07-16-2007, 12:01 PM
I read some of the first comments and I was wondering where's that survey saying what people would like to see in a sequel... Can someone give me a link to that?

trooper 57
09-07-2007, 12:19 PM
Lol new SW games coming this year!

LGSW 2

EAW Hoth: Our finest hour

BF 3

KOTOR 3

SWG: Journey to Bespin

RC 2


how do you know all this?

trooper 57
01-02-2008, 11:32 AM
I read some of the first comments and I was wondering where's that survey saying what people would like to see in a sequel... Can someone give me a link to that?
here is your link Night_Ninja http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=150500&page=3&pp=40

trooper 57
01-27-2008, 03:57 PM
helloooo

Ryuzaki
09-07-2008, 02:04 PM
ok to the cannon thing there are diffrent star wars cannons c-cannon s-cannon and few others i dont rember now to the squeal fight between manny C and 1138 1138 is almost entirely right we see them leave and they were fighting about wether they were gonna listen until if you listen to yoda he says "rondavo with delta squad" and then delta 38 says "alright sqaud lets lock and load" obviously manny you werent listening at allll !!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh and RC had a very in depth stroy you just didnt listen to the diaolog in the mid game action

Ryuzaki
09-07-2008, 02:06 PM
couse you two prolly will never see this but oh wellll