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Naja
10-30-2005, 03:41 PM
It would only make sense for the Strike Cruiser to be in. Especially since Petroglyph is going for technology that essentially stopped before Episode IV, Strike Cruisers would be consistent with their plan, as they existed before the Battle of Yavin.

Don't believe me? Lucasarts itself describes how the original Death Star carried a compliment of 4 Strike Cruisers.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/deathstar/?id=eu

...Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more...

Hear that, Petroglyph? Lucasarts? Give us our Strike Cruiser! :Pir1:

WxDude
10-30-2005, 03:49 PM
Yeah but is it going to be the STRKC we all know or is it a different one? The Death Star doesn't seem, to me, to be able to support even one STRKC.

Naja
10-30-2005, 04:35 PM
The same one we know of.

http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/StrikeCruiser.html

It doesn't matter whether EaW's Death Star can accomodate Strike Cruisers (I doubt they would implement this). What does matter is that we know for a fact that THE CANON says that the technology existed before Yavin.

lukeiamyourdad
10-30-2005, 05:33 PM
I'd love to have Strike Cruisers. If it's in, I doubt it.

Still, it would be nice to have them.

WxDude
10-30-2005, 09:20 PM
It doesn't matter whether EaW's Death Star can accomodate Strike Cruisers.

I was talking about the DS in general...it doesn't seem to me that it could support a STRKC, let alone 4.

Jan Gaarni
10-31-2005, 12:41 AM
I was talking about the DS in general...it doesn't seem to me that it could support a STRKC, let alone 4.
Just out of curiousity, exactly how large do you think the Strike Cruiser is?? :confused:
And how big is the Death Star??

I fail to see why the Death Star wouldn't be able to accomidate 4 Strike Cruisers, or even more for that matter.

Anyway, I hope the ship is in. :)

Naja
10-31-2005, 12:46 AM
Wasn't talking about whether a Death Star can accomodate them.

I just mean that I hope the bloody ship's in. The canon supports it being in before the Battle of Yavin.

Darth Windu
10-31-2005, 06:06 AM
That's an Imperial ship? Looks too rounded...not angular enough to be Imperial. I'm really starting to wonder if will ever get anything right.

Logain
10-31-2005, 08:28 AM
no its definantly a Loronar Strike Cruiser, same look as every picture i've ever seen of it

Jan Gaarni
10-31-2005, 09:54 AM
Strike Cruiser is old. It's been in Star Wars for years. It's nothing new.

The Lancer Frigate isn't wedge shaped either. It is also old within Star Wars.

An even older design would be the Dreadnaught. Even this one isn't wedgeshaped.

And then you have the Carrack Cruiser. Again, more round.

Nebulon-B, also ment for the Empire, not wedge shaped either.

There are many ships in the Imperial Navy that isn't wedgeshaped.

But the most prominent ones are. :)
These are also mostly among the largest ships.

There is no set rules what an imperial ship should look like.
Period.



If you mean by "right" that the shipmodels are modelled accuratly after established parameters, then I'm right behind you. :)
I'm alittle concerned about the ISD in the game.
It seems yet again the ship will not be accuratly modelled.

WxDude
10-31-2005, 04:48 PM
Just out of curiousity, exactly how large do you think the Strike Cruiser is?? :confused:
And how big is the Death Star??

I see the STRKC as the one from X/W Alliance and such. It's almost as big as an ISDII. And those really couldn't fit in the Death Star.

Besides, if there really were STRKC's in the Death Star...then why weren't they sent to destroy the Rebel Base (or tie up the Rebel fighters) on Yavin or sent to get help?

-=Nuke=-
10-31-2005, 05:02 PM
I see the STRKC as the one from X/W Alliance and such. It's almost as big as an ISDII. And those really couldn't fit in the Death Star.


Even if they are as big as u think (as a ISDII)... A ISDII, as told in the Starwars:Database, has 1600m long...
The first Deathstar for example has 120 kilometer Diameter, the second even 160km!
Even if the STRKC would be not 450 meters long, it would fit in a Deathstar.


Besides, if there really were STRKC's in the Death Star...then why weren't they sent to destroy the Rebel Base (or tie up the Rebel fighters) on Yavin or sent to get help?

Than u could even ask why 7,200 Starfighters not used in the Fights just to hold the entrance into the Deathstar. That was Lucas window of opportunity in his movies. (and maybe even lack of Dollar$ and technology)

WxDude
10-31-2005, 08:03 PM
Maybe 7200 T/Fs were just out of the question. Would you want to be the Flight Director for all 7200 T/Fs???

Still, I see your point. Well I do hope that they are in the game. That way I won't have to waste 2 VSDIIs to protect my Broadsides.

Darth Windu
10-31-2005, 10:18 PM
Jan - well the Escort Frigate was actually Rebel, but still. I'm not saying that every Imp ship needs to be wedge shaped, but if you look at most of the Empire's weapons - ISD's, TIE's, AT-AT's, AT-ST's etc - they are all quite angular whereas the Rebels have ether a 'bare industrial' look or are an organic rounded.

Jan Gaarni
11-01-2005, 02:20 AM
The Nebulon-B is in the Imperial Starfleet too. It was originally contracted to the Empire.

But due to certain defections and capturing of these vessels, they also ended up in rebel hands.

Darth Windu
11-01-2005, 05:56 AM
Jan - not according to the films. Aside from the fact we only ever see it in service to the Rebel Alliance, the ship was originally called the 'Rebel Cruiser' before RotJ.

Jan Gaarni
11-01-2005, 09:31 AM
Yes, but Lucas is very simple when it comes to details.

He picks the design, it's background he leaves for other people to explain.
His job is to tell the story. Period.
I mean, the man thinks Anakin got his scar from falling in the tub. :D
He don't care. :)
He leaves stuff like that to others to explain. ;)

Therefor, the Nebulon-B Frigate was contracted by the Empire, but some of them were stolen by the rebels, while others ended up in rebel hands when its crew defected.

End of story.


EDIT: And we do not see it in rebel hands only.
My last name is for instance taken from an Imperial Nebulon-B.
The Warspite is another Nebulon-B Frigate the Empire owns.
I can mention several more too.

WxDude
11-01-2005, 11:45 AM
The FRG is an Imperial design...it's just that it tends to be captured quickly and defections are quicker with them b/c of their use in the Outer Rim where no one likes to be assigned.

The B/W was developed as a Frigate Killer...the FRG is a great anti - starfighter platform...harder to kill than the L/FRG too.

lukeiamyourdad
11-01-2005, 08:57 PM
How many times must I tell you people NOT to argue with Windu? Unless you're suicidal that is...

WxDude
11-01-2005, 10:12 PM
Well, in this case, Windu is wrong.

Yes, the FRG is seen in the Rebel Fleet in the movies and is on the side of the Rebels in Rebellion. However in all the X/W series games (X/W, X/W vs T/F, etc) it is on both sides...and used more by the Empire than the Rebels. I can only think of one time a FRG is used by the Rebels in X/W Alliance.

Also, like I said...the B/W was developed at first to take out Imperial FRGs and M/FRGs and then moved into its role that we see it in normally.

Darth Windu
11-02-2005, 12:08 AM
I'm wrong because EU contradicts the films? Hardly.

Also, Dude, what on earth are 'M/FRGs', 'B/W' (Black & White?) etc? Just use english, it's easier than having to translate.

lukeiamyourdad
11-02-2005, 12:14 AM
Well, in this case, Windu is wrong.

He's rarely right. For your sake, stop it before it gets ugly.

Also, Dude, what on earth are 'M/FRGs', 'B/W' (Black & White?) etc? Just use english, it's easier than having to translate.

Go play the old X-Wing/Tie Fighter games ;)

FRG=Frigate
M/FRG=Modified Frigate
B/W=B-Wing

All of his abbreviations are the designation in your on-board computer in the old Star Wars flight sims.

Darth Windu
11-02-2005, 05:32 AM
luke - love the comments I must say, rather amusing :)

As for X-wing, I wasn't into SW when they were released any can't find them anywhere aside from eBay so I suppose I'll just have to miss out.

Jan Gaarni
11-02-2005, 10:28 AM
It doesn't conflict with the movies, because the movies never discusses such trivial things as to where they got the frigate from.

WxDude
11-02-2005, 08:25 PM
I'll post a list of the CMD names if you want it.

Darth Windu
11-03-2005, 05:36 AM
Alright Jan, so you don't mind if I go ahead and assume the Star Destroyer's are actually Rebel ships, its just that the films don't go into the little details on why the Empire uses them and the Rebels don't?

Dagobahn Eagle
11-03-2005, 07:57 AM
I'd love the X-Wing series' Strike Cruiser. It's my all-time favourite Cruiser of the SW universe.

Maybe 7200 T/Fs were just out of the question. Would you want to be the Flight Director for all 7200 T/Fs???
Maybe there was more than one officer in charge of them, such as squadron leaders, wing commanders, et cetera?

Why weren't they covering the hole in the Death Star?
Because they underestimated the rebel ability to effectively penetrate holes and fly around inside tunnels.

Go play the old X-Wing/Tie Fighter games
Best advice I've heard all day. TIE Fighter rules.
Or even better, go buy X-Wing alliance and then go to www.xwaupgrade.com. Great graphics in hand, find the TIE Fighter total conversion for XWA and download it (I helped make it, I converted at least one battle:p).

Jan Gaarni
11-03-2005, 03:26 PM
Alright Jan, so you don't mind if I go ahead and assume the Star Destroyer's are actually Rebel ships, its just that the films don't go into the little details on why the Empire uses them and the Rebels don't?
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if you did. :)
So go right ahead. ;)

How you got to that reasoning, I'm not quite sure. Maybe I'm too tired.

But right there lies the key word: Assumption.

"You assume too much"

WxDude
11-03-2005, 09:33 PM
Ok then...obvisouly I've caused this thread to crash and burn faster than the Executor at the Battle of Endor.

I move that this thread be locked.

(Don't know how well Parlimentary Procedure will work...but you never know)

Darth Windu
11-03-2005, 09:48 PM
Jan - thing is, it would be silly to assume the Star Destroyer is a Rebel ship being used by the Imperials. In much the same fashion, it is just as silly to assume that a ship that is only ever seen in use by the Rebels is really an Imperial craft.

Not only that, but every side in Star Wars has their own distinctive design of weapons. The Naboo, for example, have very sleek and shiny craft while the Rebels have a very 'industrial', 'utility' and 'unfinished' look about their's. The Empire on the other hand is utilitarian, but also very clean, sharp, precise which shows in their designs.

If you look at the Escrot Frigate, regardless of what EU says, the thing is clearly of Rebel origin.

Juggernaut1985
11-03-2005, 09:58 PM
Why do they have to be just Rebel. Any shipyard that would heave been rebel allied would have been destroyed. So logic points to it being Imperial in origin.

lukeiamyourdad
11-03-2005, 11:33 PM
Does the origin of the Nebulon-B matter that much? We could drop the whole thing before someone sends assassins to kill Windu.

Oh and:

Tie Fighter > All flight sims in history :D

Darth Windu
11-04-2005, 04:02 AM
Juggernaut - so are you also saying that A-wings, B-wings, X-wings, Y-wings, Alderaanian Corevette's, Escort Friagtes, Heavy Transports, Snowspeeders, and Mon Calamari Cruisers are all Imperial in origin?

Remember, the SW galaxy is a massive place and really, a shipyard wouldn't be all that hard to hide.

luke - don't worry, I can handle myself. Actually speaking of, in Melbourne a few days ago a man and women were burgled by a pair of thieves, one with a Samari Sword. During the course of events, the guy got free, got ahold of the Sword, killed one of ththieves and badly hurt the other.

WxDude
11-04-2005, 08:38 AM
...Alderaanian Corevette's...

For your sake, I do hope you don't mean Corellian Corvettes.

Darth Windu
11-04-2005, 10:17 AM
Dude - it's a Corvette, it's the personal ship of the Alderaanian Senator. It's not Rocket Science.

gamefreak
11-04-2005, 10:24 AM
The Corellian Corvettes is a transport for member of the Imperial senate so there was no reason to destroy them and the mon cal ships were origenaly luxury ships so the Empire wouldn't destroy them and most fighters are Empire or Republic in design.

Juggernaut1985
11-04-2005, 11:48 AM
I sure would like Windu to point to the shipyard responsible fro the Alderaanian Corvettes. There certainly are not any around the planet that they are from.

Jan Gaarni
11-04-2005, 12:34 PM
Jan - thing is, it would be silly to assume the Star Destroyer is a Rebel ship being used by the Imperials.
Well, if you agree it's silly to assume that, then why did you bring it up?
In much the same fashion, it is just as silly to assume that a ship that is only ever seen in use by the Rebels is really an Imperial craft.
There's a difference. That's not an assumption. That is the history of the ship. ;)

It's valid until LucasFilm Ltd. (or whatever the name of the division that controls this is called, Lucas Licensing perhaps?) deems it otherwise.

Neither you, nor me, can override that fact.

And again, it's not only seen on the rebel side.
Just because you have seen it only on the rebel side, doesn't mean squat.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of stuff in the EU I don't care for (Suncrusher for one thing), or even acknowledge (again, Suncrusher :p ), but I don't dive head long into a debate, trying to disprove it. As long as it's an acknowledged part of the Star Wars Universe, I will lose that debate easily.

My personal opinion don't mean squat in the end.

lukeiamyourdad
11-04-2005, 01:34 PM
Dude - it's a Corvette, it's the personal ship of the Alderaanian Senator. It's not Rocket Science.


So since I'm vietnamese in origin and I own a Toyota, Toyota MUST be a vietnamese company?

gamefreak
11-04-2005, 06:16 PM
I must say I joined this forum for two reasons

1) to talk about star wars

2) to watch these great arguments

lukeiamyourdad
11-04-2005, 06:25 PM
^^^^

I'm sure you did. Actually participating is even better.

WxDude
11-04-2005, 06:58 PM
Dude - it's a Corvette, it's the personal ship of the Alderaanian Senator. It's not Rocket Science.

I hope CEC (or should I say Corellian Engineering Corp.) doesn't see this...you may get sued. Just because it is used by someone of another Star System doesn't make it a product of that system.

The Princess was using it because it is wide use in the galaxy. The Rebels, Pirates, and the Imperials alike used the ship so often that it was able to slip through blockades...hence the nickname, "Blockade Runner".

Also, Alderaan doesn't have shipyards or a military for that matter. Why do you think Tarkin was so willing to attack in the first place. Yes, it was Leia's homeworld...but it was also defenseless. Tarkin wasn't stupid...at least not until he didn't evacuate at Yavin.

Darth Windu
11-04-2005, 11:04 PM
Luke - no. In the modern world with Globalisation and whatnot, products from one country inevitably end up in the markets of almost every other country.

However, the Star Wars universe is different. Every faction in Star Wars (and other sci-fi series, like Star Trek) has their own, unique architecture and design. The Imperial units look different to Republic units, which look different to Confederacy units, which look different to Naboo units - and so on.

The reason behind this is so that audiences, particually those whose minds aren't poisened by heretic EU, can instantly tell what faction a unit, ship, building etc belongs to without having to think too hard about it. A great example is the four starships Amidala has in EpI-III. While they are slightly different designs, they are linked by the common feature of being completely silver.

Much the same, because Alderaan is an important world in SW, and Bail Organa is an important figure in the saga, he was given a ship that would instantly be recognised as Alderaanian. Besides, it makes sense that the Rebel Alliance uses ex-Alderaanian ships in their combat fleet - after all, they had to go somewhere when Alderaan disarms and Organa is in a good position to make them disapear.


Dude -
"The Princess was using it because it is wide use in the galaxy. The Rebels, Pirates, and the Imperials alike used the ship so often that it was able to slip through blockades...hence the nickname, "Blockade Runner"."

Or it could have just been that it was made by Alderaan. Also, never in the films is it referred to as a 'Blockade Runner'.

"Also, Alderaan doesn't have shipyards or a military for that matter. Why do you think Tarkin was so willing to attack in the first place. Yes, it was Leia's homeworld...but it was also defenseless. Tarkin wasn't stupid...at least not until he didn't evacuate at Yavin"

lol, of course Alderaan doesn't have shipyards, its all blown up lol. Anyway, irrespective of whether Alderaan had shipyards in the OT, prove they didn't in the PT. After all, they could have just dismantled their shipyards they they disarmed.

Jan Gaarni
11-05-2005, 04:47 AM
I say it again, Windu.

You can form your own opinion about stuff, but if it goes against the established policy fact, which you do not control at all mind you, then you are in the wrong. :)

Give it up before you make an even more fool out of yourself.
Don't jump headlong into a debate you are doomed to lose.

If you have the slightest proof whatsoever besides the assumptions you present here, then post it, and I'll be happy to join your cause.

But until you actually can find something about this that contradicts established policy facts, then you have nothing, except your own opinion and assumptions on what Star Wars is.

EDIT: And don't you dare compare Star Wars to Star Trek. :D
Blasphemist. :p

Darth Windu
11-05-2005, 07:44 AM
Jan - as you should know by now, I'm not afraid of jumping into a fight I can't win.

According to canon, the Escort Frigate is Imperial, and the Corvette is Corellian. This is, whoever decided that is wrong. There have been a huge number of times EU has later been found to be wrong and contradicted by the films or Lucas. A good example of this is Boba Fett. EU says he lives, Lucas says he died.

Irrespective of what these authors and whatnot say, as I said, they are wrong, and nothing is going to change my opinion on the matter.

As for Star Trek, thing is they are comparable in that regard. Star Trek always has been and always will be better than the SW OT, not sure about the PT though. :)

Jan Gaarni
11-05-2005, 08:07 AM
Jan - as you should know by now, I'm not afraid of jumping into a fight I can't win.
I know, just handing out a good advice. ;)

According to canon, the Escort Frigate is Imperial, and the Corvette is Corellian. This is, whoever decided that is wrong. There have been a huge number of times EU has later been found to be wrong and contradicted by the films or Lucas. A good example of this is Boba Fett. EU says he lives, Lucas says he died.
I agree, but until it is contradicted, its word is law.

It's like with the history on Earth. It's true until it's disproved. Happened many times thru the centuries, but we don't stop believing the history books just because they could be false. ;)

Irrespective of what these authors and whatnot say, as I said, they are wrong, and nothing is going to change my opinion on the matter.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you can't force people to disregard established facts and replace it with assumptions. You need something more solid to do that, and so far you don't.

As for Star Trek, thing is they are comparable in that regard. Star Trek always has been and always will be better than the SW OT, not sure about the PT though. :)
HERESY!!! :D

Be gone from these forums, you heathen you! :p


Kidding of course. :D


That comment does make me wonder how you became such a fan of Star Wars though. :)

WxDude
11-05-2005, 09:14 AM
I say if he likes Start Trek better, kick him out.

Windu - Check out the Essential Guide to Vheicles and Vessels. It is called a Blockade Runner there and it says that it is built by CEC. Alderran, before it was blown up, never had any form of space construction. Senator Organa was the Prince Consort (semi - King) of Alderran. So he had the money to be a Corellian Corvette.

A "real life" argument...if the UK buys several F - 16 Jets from the US...they are yes, in service of the RAF...but they are still US F - 16 Fighter Jets.

I agree, stop this now before something bad happens to you. It's not a good idea to contradict everything everyone says.

WxDude
11-05-2005, 09:20 AM
After all, they could have just dismantled their shipyards they they disarmed.

Alderran never had shipyards. From the start they were peaceful. Because if they did, wouldn't you think that the Prince Consort of all people would have a ship?!?

Also, if such a planet had shipyards, wouldn't it have been eaiser for everyone escaping Naboo in Ep I to head to Alderran than Tattooine? Why go to a barbaric desert world when you can go to a civilized world? Forget about Skywalker.

Jan Gaarni
11-05-2005, 12:57 PM
Okay, that doesn't make any sense at all. :confused:

WxDude
11-05-2005, 01:21 PM
Okay, that doesn't make any sense at all. :confused:

Alderran and Tattooine are close. Why go to Tattooine, a barbaic and hostile desert unfriendly to the Republic, when you can go a few more days and go to Alderran...a friendly Republic world where you know you can get your Hyperdrive fixed, or at least a new ship instead.

Jan Gaarni
11-05-2005, 01:59 PM
In all the star maps of the Star Wars universe I've seen, and none of them are the propper official one, cause there are none made yet, Alderaan is on the other side of the galaxy from Tatooine and Naboo.

lukeiamyourdad
11-05-2005, 06:39 PM
A "real life" argument...if the UK buys several F - 16 Jets from the US...they are yes, in service of the RAF...but they are still US F - 16 Fighter Jets.

Exactly what I meant. I don't know why Windu brought up globalization...


Much the same, because Alderaan is an important world in SW, and Bail Organa is an important figure in the saga, he was given a ship that would instantly be recognised as Alderaanian. Besides, it makes sense that the Rebel Alliance uses ex-Alderaanian ships in their combat fleet - after all, they had to go somewhere when Alderaan disarms and Organa is in a good position to make them disapear.


So, since we're making assumptions, when did Alderaan disarm? It could have been since their inclusion into the Republic (1000 years). Who knows when they disarmed? I don't believe the Organa family would use a 500 year old military warship for diplomatic purposes.

Jan - as you should know by now, I'm not afraid of jumping into a fight I can't win.


Then why fight when you risk nothing by admitting defeat? This isn't some "glorious last stand for one's freedom". Gracious losers in debates are more respected then those who end up making a fool of themselves.

WxDude
11-05-2005, 10:07 PM
In all the star maps of the Star Wars universe I've seen, and none of them are the propper official one, cause there are none made yet, Alderaan is on the other side of the galaxy from Tatooine and Naboo.

Yeah...I don't know where I was going with that one.

Darth Windu
11-05-2005, 11:12 PM
Jan - I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, just floating my own ideas and opinions. If people agree, fine, if they don't, fine.

As for Star Trek and Star Wars, my mum was a huge fan of Trek so I grew up with it. Saw the OT a few times but aside from Harrison Ford as Han Solo I really didn't think much of them. Then for some reason I decided to hire out Episode 1 and got hooked. That's also why I'm a fan of the PT, but not really the OT.

Also, with the so-called Corellian Corvette, on the offical site there is some artwork of Organa's ship where it is called the 'Alderaan Cruiser'.


Dude - the 'essential guide' is EU. Films still don't call it the Blockade Runner. As for F-16's, the RAF doesn't use F-16's and they never have. As I said though, in SW the universe is designed so that you can instantly tell where something comes from just by looking at it. If you saw an F-16 in real life, without seeing its markings, you wouldn't know if it came from the US, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Greece, Belgium, Indonesia, Israel etc.


Luke - well, you'd think that with the militarisation of the Galaxy in the Clone Wars, Alderaan would have disarmed after that conflict to provide less of an overt threat to the Empire.

WxDude
11-06-2005, 07:55 AM
The Essential Guide is both. It is for the movies and the EU. So the UK doesn't use F - 16s. You missed my point. While the films might not call it the Blockade Runner...the Essential Guide does as a nickname. And, as the Essential Guide is the only official guide to the respective things, that is the only thing we have to go on.


Here is the link to the one and only official Star Wars Website it has all the information. Yes it is the EU...but it expands on the movies. Just like we are.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tantiveiv/?id=eu


Your point has been defeated. I sugguest you stop now.

lukeiamyourdad
11-06-2005, 10:38 AM
Luke - well, you'd think that with the militarisation of the Galaxy in the Clone Wars, Alderaan would have disarmed after that conflict to provide less of an overt threat to the Empire.


So Organa, who isn't hot about the Empire, decided to disarm while it's on the rise?
That makes no sense.

Logain
11-06-2005, 12:03 PM
windu, i'm sorry to say this, but your a tool, you know pretty much sweet bugger all, and you like the PT more than the OT, which makes you a sad fellow indeed

its my opinion that anyone who likes the PT more than the OT should be stabbed, shot, beaten, hung, drawn, quatered and burned for my enjoyment

PT = ****

OT= THE **** :)

its just that simple :)

Jan Gaarni
11-06-2005, 01:11 PM
Alright, enough of this!

Windu! Release him!

*watches Logain fall to the ground, gaspin for air*

This bickering is pointless.

Either debate propperly, or I'm closing this down. ;)


Now ....
Also, with the so-called Corellian Corvette, on the offical site there is some artwork of Organa's ship where it is called the 'Alderaan Cruiser'.
Yes, and before that it was some artwork of Han's ship, the Millenium Falcon. What's your point? ;)

And to further illustrate my point, you should be able to find some artwork for a star destroyer called the Victory-Class in there, which later has become to be known as the Impertor-Class (or Imperial) Star Destroyer.


EU again have gone further on that artwork and actually created a Victory-Class star destroyer, aswell as take the artwork for the first Falcon/Alderaan Cruiser/Corellian Corvette, and made the Corellian Gunship.

WxDude
11-06-2005, 01:24 PM
I sugguest this gets closed down anyway...or at least renamed. It has drifted way too far off topic.

Windu has been proven wrong and he won't stop. I ask that the closing of this thread be his warning.

And, Windu, I stopped when I couldn't debate the distance between Alderran and Tattooine.

Darth Windu
11-06-2005, 09:41 PM
Luke - no. Organa realises that, having just defeated the Confederacy, taken power away from the Senate and having a huge military to back him up, Palpatine shouldn't be overtly challenged. Therefore, he decides that Alderaan should disarm so when Palpatine goes looking for a threat, he won't be looking at Alderaan. That way, he can participate covertly in the Rebel Alliance without too many Imperial entanglements.

lukeiamyourdad
11-06-2005, 10:22 PM
Luke - no. Organa realises that, having just defeated the Confederacy, taken power away from the Senate and having a huge military to back him up, Palpatine shouldn't be overtly challenged. Therefore, he decides that Alderaan should disarm so when Palpatine goes looking for a threat, he won't be looking at Alderaan. That way, he can participate covertly in the Rebel Alliance without too many Imperial entanglements.

But then he puts his entire planet in jeopardy by leaving it defenseless against even threats from the Rebel. Why not keep your military production, sell some to the Empire, perhaps of lower quality and then give away your better elements to the Rebels. He can supply them better by not disarming.

Besides, Leia mentions the Alderaanians being a peaceful culture, why would they make warships? Defend against the Confederacy? Why? You have the Republic Army right there to defend you. At most you have a small defense force like the Naboo, like them, Alderaan probably never had a decent fighting force.

Still, you haven't answered why an Alderaanian senator wouldn't be able to buy a Corellian ship.

WxDude
11-07-2005, 08:24 AM
-delete-

I hit "Edit this post" instead of "Quote this post" and I messed up.

gamefreak
11-07-2005, 10:16 AM
Wrong, Alderran use to have ships, i think it was about 20 or so years before the clone wars

Logain
11-07-2005, 01:04 PM
according to The Bacta War, alderan disarmed right before the clone wars

BattleDamage
11-07-2005, 07:57 PM
Juggernaut - so are you also saying that A-wings, B-wings, X-wings, Y-wings, Alderaanian Corevette's, Escort Friagtes, Heavy Transports, Snowspeeders, and Mon Calamari Cruisers are all Imperial in origin?

lol just to annoy u windu, the x wing IS imperial in origin but was captured by alliance personnel when some of the designers defected

WxDude
11-07-2005, 08:42 PM
That's right. I forgot about that. The ARC - 170 is an early X/W.

Don't wory. Windu doesn't know what he is talking about.

BattleDamage
11-07-2005, 08:54 PM
lol i dont mean to be an ass WxDude, but i dont think the ARC 170 was designed by incom like the xwing. if ne thing is an early x wing it is the z 95 headhunter

lukeiamyourdad
11-07-2005, 10:29 PM
Actually, it was manufactured by Incom. My guess is that the Z-95 and the ARC-170 were somehow combined to create the X-Wing.

Darth Windu
11-07-2005, 11:41 PM
luke - no it doesn't. What you need to do is learn about how politics and Military forces operate and then jump back in.

First off, there is no threat to Alderaan from the Rebels because Alderaan is a covertly Rebel planet.

By not having any military weapons, they pose no overt threat to Palpatine, and so would pretty much fly under the radar, leaving them more-or-less free to do what they want.

Pre-Clone Wars and during the Clone Wars they would have had weapons to defend themselves. Sure, there was the Grand Army of the Republic, but it can't be everywhere, so the Alderaanians like everyone else would have had their own small armed forces specifically to defend themselves.

As for an Alderaanian Senator buying a Corellian ship, so why aren't Padme's ships Corellian? Point is, which you still ignore, that in Sci-Fi/Fanatsy series, EACH FACTION IS GIVEN THEIR OWN UNIQUE DESIGN ETHOS. This is so audiences can instantly recognise them as being Republic, Imperial, Naboo etc. In addition, you'd be looking at pride. Alderaan is probably a pretty important planet, and so they're going to send their Senator in a ship from another system, while little Naboo can send their's in a Naboo-made ship. Don't think so sport.


Jan - quite true Jan, but here there is a difference. When the Star Destroyer was known as a Victory, that was before the films, so therefore nothing to contradict it. However, EU has been calling this ship the Corellian Corvette for a long time, and yet, knowing that, the artwork for RotS specifically calls in the Alderaan Cruiser. Big difference.


Dude - cut it out. I don't really care about what you say in response to my arguments, as long as it is responding to my arguments.

darthfergie
11-08-2005, 03:04 AM
lol, what a crazy thread this has turned into.
I'd say that Lucas tried a little to hard to develop themes in the Prequels because it's come back to bite him with theorists like Windu who reject the notion that the imperials would make anything that wasn't wedge shaped or had any organic feel to it. While it would be nice to say that that was the case, it clearly isn't. In the Original trilogy models were thrown together with old battleship parts etc, where as in the prequels the modelers have the luxury of figuring out how to curve the engine placement so that it transitions nicely with the naboo fighter and the wedge shapes coming into Episode III.
Personally I never was excited about any of the new fighters shown in the prequels. All of them with the exception of Episode I seemed very forced so that they could show a "natural progression" of the shape to grow into star destroyers, etc. Since when is there a natural progression? Since when do trucks look like convertables? Since when do tractors look like minivans? In our culture today there are so many wide varieties of designs in car manufacturing. So many different shapes. From the curves of American cars, to the box shapes of many Asian cars, to the aerodinamics of F-1 racers. I think the Original trilogy better simulated a real world with such a diverse amount of shapes and sizes that carry over into the expanded universe. Where as the Prequels just feel totally unnatural. The only unique designs you find in the prequels are on speeders and such, and even many of those arn't all that original and hark back to many sci-fi movies.
The Prequels lacked originality sadly, which perverts the view of the later Empire and Rebel forces to one where you look for the shapes and the trends and assume it was completed just as forcefully as the Prequels were and that's where you find Darth Windu's arguements.

Windu, if I were you I wouldn't look at the Prequels and the Original Trilogy as connecting all that well. In fact I'd say build in a great deal of looseness into the connectivity of the two trilogies, or else you'll never be satisfied with either trilogy.

Logain
11-08-2005, 03:39 AM
lets just all agree the prequals were quite crappy, and shouldnt be viewed as true or correct, lucas cant write for ****, if he wanted someone to write the prequals he should have got Timothy Zahn or Micheal Stackpole to do it

Darth Windu
11-08-2005, 04:56 AM
Logain - hardly. The OT is rubbish while the PT is great :P

Logain
11-08-2005, 05:25 AM
your a heathen though, your opinion doesnt count,

explain to me what was so great about the PT

Dagobahn Eagle
11-08-2005, 06:06 AM
Actually, it was manufactured by Incom. My guess is that the Z-95 and the ARC-170 were somehow combined to create the X-Wing.
Yup. InCom Corporations developed the X-Wing for the Imperials, but then a group of developers defected to the Alliance, taking at least one X-Wing with them, along with all research material on it.

The X-Wing derives from the Z-95, yes, but with that strange fighter in Episode III showing up, I suppose we have to say the ARC-170 derived from the Z-95, and that the X-Wing derived from the ARC-170.

Logain
11-08-2005, 06:19 AM
...if that was true though, why isnt the ARC still in use but the headhunter is? i'd say it goes ARC-z95-X-wing rather then z95-ARC-X-wing

WxDude
11-08-2005, 09:42 AM
The ARC 170 is horrible. The Z 95 is used by pirates (and sometimes by covert Rebels) and the X/W is over 1000 times better than the ARC 170. Plus, the ARC 170 was a Republic unit...probably discontinued by the advent of the TIE Series.

And Windu -

Senator Amidala's vessels can be called Nubian because of they are actually built on Naboo and for the Nubian Government. The CRV that Senator Organa uses and later on Leia is built by Corellian Engineering Coporation. The same company that built the ship we see in the opening scenes of Episode I...that later gets blown up the the Federation Hanager Defense Batteries. That ship predates the Corvette.

They are cheap and easy to modifiy with weapons, hanagars, and escape pods. The CRV has enough hardpoints to carry a sizeable defense, against small craft (but not of course from the ISD Devestator). They are also, and I say again, in widespread use across the galaxy...so it is almost impossible to ID the Tantive IV from a pirate CRV or an Imperial Cargo CRV.

Jan Gaarni
11-08-2005, 12:43 PM
...if that was true though, why isnt the ARC still in use but the headhunter is? i'd say it goes ARC-z95-X-wing rather then z95-ARC-X-wing
Who says it isn't?

Logain
11-08-2005, 01:08 PM
....every single star wars book based after ROTJ?

Jan Gaarni
11-08-2005, 01:21 PM
And where does it say the ARC 170 even existed in those books, which are majority from before Episode III? :)

Point is, no book or source to this date has ever stated that the ship is not in use.

Logain
11-08-2005, 01:29 PM
yet another sign to point the PT as useless and crappy :P:P

Jan Gaarni
11-08-2005, 04:49 PM
I'm sorry, I don't follow. :confused:

Darth Windu
11-08-2005, 10:30 PM
ignore

Darth Windu
11-08-2005, 10:32 PM
Dude - 'Nubian' doesn't mean 'from Naboo'. If you paid attention in Ep1, Watto uses the word 'Nubians' to mean 'Outlanders' (foreigners). Ergo, there is no evidence to say Amidala's ship was from Naboo.

As for the ARC-170, it was designed to be the precursor to the X-wing, like the Republic Star Destroyer to the Imperial Star Destroyer, and the V-wing to the TIE Fighter and A-wing. It's just to link more of a link to the Original Trilogy. As for how the design process of Z-95, ARC-170 and X-wing, there are two ways you can go.

1. Films: ARC-170 --> X-wing. The Z-95 never existed, and as the ARC-170 is in Ep3 while the X-wing is in 4, 5 and 6, obviously the ARC-170 came first.

2. EU: Z-95 --> ARC-170 --> X-wing. The Z-95 is mentioned in the pre-Ep1 novel, can't remember the name, while the ARC-170 isn't in use until around 10 years later, followed by the X-wing.

Oh yes, and there are many reasons the Z-95 would be in use by pirates and whatnot rather than the ARC-170.
- Z-95 only has a single pilot, so if the ship dies you only lose one person instead of three plus an astromech droid
- ARC-170 requires an astromech droid which add to maintenance expenses, can get lost, and could be difficult to obtain
- Due to size, Z-95's are easier to hide, store and cheaper to maintain

WxDude
11-08-2005, 10:41 PM
Essintial Guide calls it a Nubian. And as you can't produce another valid source, that's all we have to go on.

Jan Gaarni
11-09-2005, 01:05 AM
Dude - 'Nubian' doesn't mean 'from Naboo'. If you paid attention in Ep1, Watto uses the word 'Nubians' to mean 'Outlanders' (foreigners). Ergo, there is no evidence to say Amidala's ship was from Naboo.
You can see a connection between Organa and his ship, meaning it must be an Alderaanian design, but you can't see such an obvious connection between "Nubian" and "Naboo"?!? :confused:
Which incidently even the EU agrees on what means.

The minute I saw that movie, I knew straight away what it ment. I even was probably the one that was most bothered about the fact that SWGalaxies didn't even pick up on this. They called people from Naboo for Nabooians.

It's Nubian!!!

Watch the movies, Sony. :p

Logain
11-09-2005, 02:56 AM
i hate Naboo, its the first planet i'm gonna blow up, simply cause the gungans live there

Naja
11-09-2005, 03:30 AM
I'm going to blow up every planet from the prequel trilogy just to pretend that it never happened.

And yes, I AM prepared to include Tatooine and Coruscant!

Reinheit mus sein!! :hang1: :trooper: :speeder: :guard: :lightning :guard: :speeder: :trooper: :chop1:

Logain
11-09-2005, 04:31 AM
lol

lukeiamyourdad
11-09-2005, 05:08 PM
luke - no it doesn't. What you need to do is learn about how politics and Military forces operate and then jump back in.

I don't need to go out and "learn".

First off, there is no threat to Alderaan from the Rebels because Alderaan is a covertly Rebel planet.

Palpatine doesn't know this. It would be better if Alderaan showed that they had the military to push back the Rebels as a sign of good will towards the Emperor.

By not having any military weapons, they pose no overt threat to Palpatine, and so would pretty much fly under the radar, leaving them more-or-less free to do what they want.

But Organa disposing of his vehicles would attract attention. If anything, disarming under Imperial rule would have attracted quite a bit of attention from the authorities to make sure everything was done in good order.



Pre-Clone Wars and during the Clone Wars they would have had weapons to defend themselves. Sure, there was the Grand Army of the Republic, but it can't be everywhere, so the Alderaanians like everyone else would have had their own small armed forces specifically to defend themselves.

Exactly, which would probably be similar to the Naboo, small squadrons of fighters with maybe one or two medium-size warships.

As for an Alderaanian Senator buying a Corellian ship, so why aren't Padme's ships Corellian? Point is, which you still ignore, that in Sci-Fi/Fanatsy series, EACH FACTION IS GIVEN THEIR OWN UNIQUE DESIGN ETHOS. This is so audiences can instantly recognise them as being Republic, Imperial, Naboo etc. In addition, you'd be looking at pride. Alderaan is probably a pretty important planet, and so they're going to send their Senator in a ship from another system, while little Naboo can send their's in a Naboo-made ship. Don't think so sport.

The Naboo ships are obviously custom made small vessels. Cost is very high for any single one of them. However, a Corellian Corvette is a common warship (as proven by their use in RotJ). What you claim is that Alderaan custom makes its ships like the Naboo. Obviously, they don't.
I'll use a real world analogy here. China, for example, decides to buy a Bentley for their president to go wherever he has to go. Well, I guess that's it. Bentley isn't chinese.

Besides, the Naboo certainly aren't poor. I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. It would look stupid for the Trade Federation to blockade a poor planet, Sidious' homeworld or not.

Jan Gaarni
11-09-2005, 06:40 PM
As for an Alderaanian Senator buying a Corellian ship, so why aren't Padme's ships Corellian?
Why should it be?
Why can't one planet get their ships one way, and another planet do it another way?

Point is, which you still ignore, that in Sci-Fi/Fanatsy series, EACH FACTION IS GIVEN THEIR OWN UNIQUE DESIGN ETHOS. This is so audiences can instantly recognise them as being Republic, Imperial, Naboo etc.
Irrelevant.

This explaination works for a standard sci-fi/fantasi movie/adventure/book whatever.
But this is Star Wars. Star Wars-fans need an in-universe explaination to stuff.
Not a "Because this is how movies are made" explaination. Those "explainations" arn't good enough for Star Wars fans.

Also, try not to yell at people. If you want to put pressure on a word, or sentence, make them in Bold text. And to further put emphasis on words and text, add Italic aswell.

Darth Windu
11-09-2005, 09:48 PM
Dude - fact remains that Watto uses the word 'Nubian' to mean 'Outlander'. It is very clear, and as it is from the films it superscedes anything from the books.

Jan - the problem there is that you're saying one planet has its own, completely unique ships, while another more powerful planet has to buy them from someone else. Main problems here are both recognition and prestige.

I could accept that the Corellians bought the right to produce the Corvette off of Alderaan when they disarmed, but to say Senator Organa uses a Corellian ship as his personal transport is daft.

ukas
11-09-2005, 10:10 PM
i've been following this topic for awhile and can't understand why can't you, darth windu, except the fact the ship used by senator organa of alderaan is corellian corvette built by CEC. every legimate source on the internet and of the internet agrees on this. could you please list your sources to proof whta you are saying is true. other wise, if you have no proof, just give up, stubborness in this case shows you only as a fool.

lukeiamyourdad
11-09-2005, 10:54 PM
It's not proof that he has, only a certain reasoning. Proof, he has none. If we get technical about it, the movies do not exactly indicate who makes the Correllian Corvette.

Jan Gaarni
11-10-2005, 02:12 AM
Dude - fact remains that Watto uses the word 'Nubian' to mean 'Outlander'. It is very clear, and as it is from the films it superscedes anything from the books.
There is no facts what Watto means about Nubian meaning "Outlander" in the movies. But it does come off quite clear what he means by it. This isn't rocket science after all. You have Qui-Gon showing a hologram of the Queens ship, Watto exclaims "Ah. Nubian.". Nubian .... Naboo ... when he sees the Nubian ship .... like I said, it's not rocket science. I did not have to read any kind of book to get the meaning of the word. Nor have I read a book for that matter.

I'm interested how you managed to get to the meaning that Nubian means Outlander.

You're not into this debate for making sense, are you. :)

You're into it for distance and irritation. "How long can I keep at it before these guys snap." :p

Darth Windu
11-10-2005, 05:05 AM
luke - quite true. However, to make my position on this matter clear, I think the ship is Alderaanian because

1. Every faction has their own unique design style
2. Two Alderaanian Senators use the same vessel
3. Han Solo refers to the "big Corellian ships" - the Corvette isn't that big
4. The ships are used extensively by the Rebellion, which Alderaan supports
5. The offical site clearly calls the vessel an "Alderaan Cruiser" even though EU has long called it Corellian

Jan - ah, you've discovered my evil plot :)

No, really I seriously think it is Alderaanian, for the reasons above. As for how I got the meaning of 'Nubian' to mean 'Outlander', in Ep1 Watto says something like 'Outlands, think they know everything' during which he speaks the word 'Nubians'. This is when Qui-Gon, Jar Jar, Padme and R2 leave the shop following Qui-Gon's failed Mind Trick.

ukas
11-10-2005, 07:13 AM
if you wanna go technical movies never mentioned the ship being "alderaan cruiser" and that all books say those ships are corellian corvettes. also, about your points darth windu what official site are you talking about, mind providing link. also, when han solo referred to big corellians, he meant the ones imperials are using so i don't get you point so much there. and compared to millenium falcon corvette is big. so what if two senators use it, ofcourse they are aren't gonna buy new ship because it would cost money.

Dagobahn Eagle
11-10-2005, 07:15 AM
The minute I saw that movie, I knew straight away what it ment. I even was probably the one that was most bothered about the fact that SWGalaxies didn't even pick up on this. They called people from Naboo for Nabooians.
I was sure "Nubian" was the type of ship. Meh.

I'll use a real world analogy here. China, for example, decides to buy a Bentley for their president to go wherever he has to go. Well, I guess that's it. Bentley isn't chinese.
Another analogy is how Norway buys fighters like the F-4 and F-16 from who-knows-where (probably mostly the USA, though possibly also the UK, Germany, or France), while Sweden makes its own fighter (the JAS-39 Gripen). Why aren't Sweden's fighters from America? Because they figured it'd be better for them to design and build their own fighters, while Norway decided to buy them from out-of-town.

Likewise, Organa got her hands on a Correlian Corvette, while Padmé decided Naboo should build a vessel to call its own.

Plain and simple.

I like this discussion. It's a welcome break from more significant things like Dubya, stem cells, gays, Church, and Schiavo.

1. Every faction has their own unique design style
Possibly. However, the corvette is not one of them.

2. Two Alderaanian Senators use the same vessel
It can still be from somewhere else. Several Norwegian Prime Ministers have travelled with cars and helicopters that are not built in Norway.

3. Han Solo refers to the "big Corellian ships" - the Corvette isn't that big
It is decent-sized compared to fighters, the Falcon, and most other ships. Star Destroyers are bigger, but they aren't "most ships".

It's like a frigate is "big" to an MTB, but small to an aircraft carrier. Everything's relative.

4. The ships are used extensively by the Rebellion, which Alderaan supports.
So?
Norway supports Germany (when we're not bashing Bush:p), and we use F-16 fighters extensively. The Germans have F-16 fighters. I suppose that means the F-16 is orginally German, then:rolleyes:.

5. The offical site clearly calls the vessel an "Alderaan Cruiser" even though EU has long called it Corellian
Nope. It clearly lists it as a CR90 Correlian Corvette, nicked the "Blockade Runner", built by the CEC. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tantiveiv/index.html)

Jan Gaarni
11-10-2005, 11:18 AM
luke - quite true. However, to make my position on this matter clear, I think the ship is Alderaanian because

1. Every faction has their own unique design style
2. Two Alderaanian Senators use the same vessel
3. Han Solo refers to the "big Corellian ships" - the Corvette isn't that big
4. The ships are used extensively by the Rebellion, which Alderaan supports
5. The offical site clearly calls the vessel an "Alderaan Cruiser" even though EU has long called it Corellian

Jan - ah, you've discovered my evil plot :)

No, really I seriously think it is Alderaanian, for the reasons above. As for how I got the meaning of 'Nubian' to mean 'Outlander', in Ep1 Watto says something like 'Outlands, think they know everything' during which he speaks the word 'Nubians'.
Or maybe Watto simply believes Qui-Gon is a Nubian, since Naboo is primearly inhabited by humans. ;)

Another analogy is how Norway buys fighters like the F-4 and F-16 from who-knows-where (probably mostly the USA, though possibly also the UK, Germany, or France), while Sweden makes its own fighter (the JAS-39 Gripen). Why aren't Sweden's fighters from America? Because they figured it'd be better for them to design and build their own fighters, while Norway decided to buy them from out-of-town.
And to add to that, while Sweden has about 1000 Billion kroner (roughly 150 Billion dollars, I'm not quite sure what the exchange rate is these days) in debt, Norway has 1000 billion in the bank. :)

So why arn't we making planes aswell, and better ones, since we have no debt and actually alot in the bank as a country?!? ;)

Same way with Alderaan and Corellia.

Corellia is actually famous for its ships, unlike Alderaan.

3. Han Solo refers to the "big Corellian ships" - the Corvette isn't that big
And this is relevant why?
One thing doesn't neccessarly have to do anything about the other.

4. The ships are used extensively by the Rebellion, which Alderaan supports
Again, I fail to see the relevanse here.
Corellia also supports the Rebel Alliance.

5. The offical site clearly calls the vessel an "Alderaan Cruiser" even though EU has long called it Corellian
Where?
If you mean the artwork, then that again is irrelevant as it's the finished product that counts.

In the end, it has always been a Corellian Corvette, and will always be a Corellian Corvette.

Jeff
11-10-2005, 11:56 AM
I think I gotta agree with Jan on this one. I've always known those ships as Corvettes, and that's what I've always heard others refer to them as. Corelia is known for it's ships, and Alderaan isn't. It would make sense that Alderaan buys their ships from Corelia. Especially since they both support the rebellion.

Theenglishguru
11-10-2005, 02:17 PM
Why do you have to argue? There are God knows how many plot holes and overlaps between the books, EU and the films that contradict each other.. The complete truth just isn't there... Just contradictory sources.

gamefreak
11-10-2005, 03:48 PM
Why do you have to argue? There are God knows how many plot holes and overlaps between the books, EU and the films that contradict each other.. The complete truth just isn't there... Just contradictory sources.

I think I just found the smartest person in this forum!

lukeiamyourdad
11-10-2005, 03:57 PM
Because we argue for the fun of it? Ugh, this is where my post back at Dexter's takes all of its meaning...

Jeff
11-10-2005, 04:41 PM
Why do you have to argue? There are God knows how many plot holes and overlaps between the books, EU and the films that contradict each other.. The complete truth just isn't there... Just contradictory sources.
It's not as much arguing as much as debating their conflicting opinions. It's all in good fun :)

Darth Windu
11-10-2005, 10:51 PM
Eagle - Germany, the UK and France have never used F-16's. Instead, with the exception of Germany because of the whole 'we tried to conquer Europe' thing, the more powerful nations in the world build their own equipment. For example, in World War 2 you had

UK
- Spitfire
- Hurricane
- Typhoon
- Tempest
- Lancaster
- Matilda I and II
- Churchill

CCCP
- MiG-1 and 3
- T-34
- KV-1
- IS-1 and 2

Germany
- Fw190
- Bf109
- PzKpfw III and IV
- Panther
- Tiger
- King/Royal Tiger

US
- P-51
- P-47
- P-38
- B-17
- B-24
- B-29
- M-4
- M-3

and so on and so forth. Even Sweden had their own specially designed equipment before WW2. Since Star Wars combat is based on WW2, this is particually relevant.

In the modern world, you still see the same thing, but to a lesser extent due to globalisation.


As for the Offical site talking about the 'Alderaan Cruiser'. You need Hyperspace access for the second two but go to-
Tantive Touchdown (http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/artofrev/2005/03/artofrev20050328.html)
KV39 Alderaan Cruiser Conference Room (http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/member/knollvision/39.html)
Inside the Alderaan Cruiser (http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/member/episode-iii/bts/setdiary/news20040831.html)

lukeiamyourdad
11-10-2005, 11:05 PM
You don't know much about WWII.

The Germans did use equipment from other nations, the Panzer 38(t) which is Czech in origin.

Russia deployed many british tanks.

Britain used the M-4 Sherman and B-17.

All of them had their own vehicles but that doesn't mean they didn't acquire some from other nations.

Darth Windu
11-11-2005, 03:45 AM
lol Luke, well I guess all that time doing a History major at Univeristy, specialising in World War II has been wasted then hey?

Sure, the British and Soviets used US equipment, as did the Germans funnily enough. In fact, the US Browning 9mm Hi-Power was used by the German SS during the war.

Thing is though, the majority of equipment used by each nation was unique to that nation. In many cases, equipment that came from another country was altered to suit the new owners. An example of this is the Sherman Firefly. Sure, the British used the M-4, but it was modified and even Soviet M-4's were different to those dployed by the US.

Besides, I said that nations built their own equipment, not that they only used they own equipment.

Interstingly, I noticed you failed to comment on my evidence from the Official site. Seen the light yet?

WxDude
11-11-2005, 09:20 AM
So it calls that an Alderrain Cruiser...it also calls it a Blockade Runner.

The point is, the TEGTVAV is the correct source because everyone accepts it and is the source that is the widest in use. It is a Corellian Corvette. That is in Rebellion, the X/W Series Games and the books. Therefore, the website is outnumbered. Also, that is in reference to its use by Senator Organa and only in Episode III. Not the rest.

darthfergie
11-11-2005, 04:19 PM
From what I've heard, Nubian is actually from another source than Naboo.
http://www.theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=42172

They cite sources like The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels to say that it is actually from the planet Nubia which apparently has an exotic shipyard coporation.

I honestly don't know why everybody assumed that because Naboo had exotic fighters and ships that they were made there anyways. TIE fighters weren't made on Coruscant, neither were star destroyers, even though they were shown on Coruscant's surface. Just because the fighters and ship reflect the culture, doesn't mean that they are necessarily from that culture. I know I don't make the clothes I wear, but they are an outward expression of me and my opinions and sense of culture.

lukeiamyourdad
11-11-2005, 04:43 PM
lol Luke, well I guess all that time doing a History major at Univeristy, specialising in World War II has been wasted then hey?

Yes.

Thing is though, the majority of equipment used by each nation was unique to that nation. In many cases, equipment that came from another country was altered to suit the new owners. An example of this is the Sherman Firefly. Sure, the British used the M-4, but it was modified and even Soviet M-4's were different to those dployed by the US.

I know that.

Besides, I said that nations built their own equipment, not that they only used they own equipment.

And that also applies to Alderaan. They can use other planet's equipment too you know.

Interstingly, I noticed you failed to comment on my evidence from the Official site. Seen the light yet?

Very well, it could mean anything. My interpretation is that it's called an Alderaanian Cruiser simply because it's used by Alderaan. It does not indicate the people who built it.

darthfergie
11-11-2005, 05:09 PM
Alderaan Cruiser...I'm thinking Luke's right on that one. Refering to it's owners in that sense, just as when the rebels owned it, it was refered to as the "Rebel Blockade Runner." It doesn't say that Alderaanian's built it, on the contrary, the database (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tantiveiv/) shows it as designed by corellian engineering corp as mentioned already and highlights it as the vehicle used in episode III.

WxDude
11-11-2005, 05:24 PM
But it was built by CEC...therefore it is a Corellian Corvette. TIE variants were built by Sienar...and thus called Sienar Fleet Systems Imperial TIE . Star Destroyers are called Kuat Drive Yards Imperial Star Destroyers.

The [i]Falcon is made by CEC as well. A CEC YT - 1300. It's still a Corellian Freighter.

darthfergie
11-11-2005, 05:30 PM
The Falcon is made by CEC as well. A CEC YT - 1300. It's still a Corellian Freighter.

Well of course it was called a corellian frieghter, it was owned by a corellian. ;-)
j/k, sorry, couldn't resist.

Logain
11-12-2005, 12:00 AM
Imperators are just called Imperators, not KDY Imperators, more than one company constructs them

Darth Windu
11-12-2005, 03:35 AM
So it calls that an Alderrain Cruiser...it also calls it a Blockade Runner.

The point is, the TEGTVAV is the correct source because everyone accepts it and is the source that is the widest in use.

Not true, I don't accept it, ergo your statement is incorrect.

Very well, it could mean anything. My interpretation is that it's called an Alderaanian Cruiser simply because it's used by Alderaan.

So an Imperial Star Destroyer is called that because the Imperials use it, not because they built it? I suppose that means the Super Star Destroyer is used by an organisation called 'Super' then?

Jan Gaarni
11-12-2005, 05:06 AM
No, it's called Super cause it's massive and, well, super in size. :)
It's still an Imperial Super Star Destroyer ... well, those controlled by the Empire that is.

lukeiamyourdad
11-12-2005, 11:30 AM
Not true, I don't accept it, ergo your statement is incorrect.

He obviously means the majority of people accept it as a source. The statement isn't so well formulated but you do know what it means nonetheless.
It still doesn't make his argument that TEGTVAV is the most widely used source to have any lesser impact.

WxDude
11-12-2005, 01:08 PM
Imperators are just called Imperators, not KDY Imperators, more than one company constructs them

Of course more than one company constructs them, however the main construction company is KDY. TNEGTVAV calls them that.

What I ment by that comment is that most of the people not like us (that can't ID an ISDII from an ISD) use TNEGTVAV.

Besdies www.starwars.com, what other source do you know of that provides the correct information?

darthfergie
11-12-2005, 09:21 PM
Of course more than one company constructs them, however the main construction company is KDY. TNEGTVAV calls them that.

What I ment by that comment is that most of the people not like us (that can't ID an ISDII from an ISD) use TNEGTVAV.

Besdies www.starwars.com, what other source do you know of that provides the correct information?

Correct information according to windu? or the correct information according to everything that's been gathered? ;)

My favorite source is TFN's Encyclopedia (http://www.theforce.net/swenc/), but that is of course the pagan's handbook of EU so I wouldn't suggest it when arguing with Windu.

Darth Windu
11-12-2005, 11:18 PM
The only sources of info I use are the films, and if I need or want to know something more I go to the offical site Databank. Never even seen the TFN Encyclopedia, or the TNEGTVAV, whatever that is.

lukeiamyourdad
11-13-2005, 01:32 AM
and if I need or want to know something more I go to the offical site Databank.

Which states that CEC made the Corellian Corvette.

Darth Windu
11-13-2005, 07:54 AM
Correct. However, other sources on the offical site which directly relate to RotS clearly state that it is the Alderaan Cruiser. Ergo, that is the better source.

lukeiamyourdad
11-13-2005, 11:33 AM
Correct. However, other sources on the offical site which directly relate to RotS clearly state that it is the Alderaan Cruiser. Ergo, that is the better source.

How do you know it's the better source? It's more an opinion then an actual fact. Hell, it's one line under a picture...

Besides, I've already said how it could mean a cruiser used by Alderaan and you haven't been able to say about that possibility.

WxDude
11-13-2005, 02:57 PM
The only sources of info I use are the films, and if I need or want to know something more I go to the offical site Databank. Never even seen the TFN Encyclopedia, or the TNEGTVAV, whatever that is.

TNEGTVAV stands for The New Essential Guide to Vheicles and Vessels.

If you were paying attention to earlier posts (and not trying to argue every point) you would have seen me spell it out.

Darth Windu
11-13-2005, 10:32 PM
luke - no, it's one picture for RotS and two video's for RotS. As I said, since those directly relate to RotS whereas the Databank details do not, the previous sources are better. In addition, while making RotS they could have gone along with EU and called it the Corellian Corvette, but they didn't. Why? Because it's not a Corellian Corvette, it's an Alderaan Cruiser.

lukeiamyourdad
11-13-2005, 11:19 PM
luke - no, it's one picture for RotS and two video's for RotS. As I said, since those directly relate to RotS whereas the Databank details do not, the previous sources are better. In addition, while making RotS they could have gone along with EU and called it the Corellian Corvette, but they didn't. Why? Because it's not a Corellian Corvette, it's an Alderaan Cruiser.

Last I heard, the name "Alderaanian Cruiser" isn't mentionned in the movie.

Again, you haven't replied to how it couldn't just be called an Alderaanian Cruiser because it's a ship from Alderaan, not made by Alderaan.

Darth Windu
11-14-2005, 08:44 AM
luke - I expected better from you. That's just as daft as calling a captured Star Destroyer a "Rebel Star Destroyer".

Darth Alec
11-14-2005, 09:15 AM
LOL!!!

Jan Gaarni
11-14-2005, 02:52 PM
luke - I expected better from you. That's just as daft as calling a captured Star Destroyer a "Rebel Star Destroyer".
No it's not.

If it's captured it's no longer in the possession of the Empire, thus you can't say it's an imperial star destroyer anymore cause that would be a false statement. Just like a captured imperial corvette can't be called that any longer cause they don't control that ship any more. Just like etc ...

You can say it used to be an imperial controlled star destroyer, which is what it means.

Is it wrong to call an Iraqi tank an Iraqi tank? No.
Was it made by the Iraqis? Certaintly not. It's a russian tank (mostly, I don't know if they used any other countries tanks, but that's irrelavent).

So why do we call it an Iraqi tank then?
To distinguish who's using that specific tank from who made the tank.

BattleDamage
11-14-2005, 03:54 PM
lol im surprised none of you have also remembered that imperial is also the class of star destroyer being mentioned like super or eclipse class star destroyers, it does not refer to the faction of its owner. Or if you want a real world analogy, the fletcher class destroyer or a kaguro class destroyer.

lukeiamyourdad
11-14-2005, 04:49 PM
lol im surprised none of you have also remembered that imperial is also the class of star destroyer being mentioned like super or eclipse class star destroyers, it does not refer to the faction of its owner. Or if you want a real world analogy, the fletcher class destroyer or a kaguro class destroyer.


That's highly debatable. Originally, it was called an Imperator-class Star Destroyers. Later, in various video games, it was changed to Imperial-class. It is of no matter though, as various ships like the Frigates, Corvettes and Shuttles need the word Imperial in front so as to indicate the owner.

WxDude
11-14-2005, 05:14 PM
lol im surprised none of you have also remembered that imperial is also the class of star destroyer being mentioned like super or eclipse class star destroyers, it does not refer to the faction of its owner. Or if you want a real world analogy, the fletcher class destroyer or a kaguro class destroyer.

I was wondering about that. Regardless of what it was originally called, it is now an Imperial - class Star Destroyer.

And it's regardless of who owns it, it is still an Imperial Star Destroyer. Just because the Rebels capture an INT doesn't change its class...it's still an Immoblizer 418, regardless of its ownership. The Rebels still call their captured ISDs and ISDIIs (if they are so lucky) Imperial Star Destroyers.

Jan Gaarni
11-14-2005, 06:03 PM
That's highly debatable. Originally, it was called an Imperator-class Star Destroyers. Later, in various video games, it was changed to Imperial-class.
It wasn't changed to that. It was poorly research and lack of understanding how class names are decided upon that lead to the erronomous Imperial-Class designation.
Just like games did poor research on the lenght of the Executor. And it took over 20 years before that error was finally corrected by LucasFilm, Licensing, or whatever the division that is in charge of keeping Star Wars "uniform" is called.
Something fans of Star Wars has been aware of since the mid 90's.
But that's another discussion.

The Eclipse is a Super Star Destroyer too, but of the Eclipse-Class. Just like the Executor and all the other of its kind (the Lusankya, Iron Fist, Guardian, Terror, etc ...) is a Super Star Destroyer, but of the Executor-Class.

In later publications the error has been tried to be fixed, but an explaination to why the Imperial Imperial-class star destroyer (look how silly that looks :p ) was renamed from Imperator, is what we so far is stuck with.

Darth Windu
11-14-2005, 11:05 PM
Jan - so, if a Star Destroyer was then captured by a certain group, you would call it an "Ewok Star Destroyer" huh? Come on, it's not rocket science - ships aren't named by their owner, they're named by type. You use the example of an Iraqi tank. They are never called 'Iraqi tank'. Take for example the Iraqi T-72's. They were built by the Soviets and have served in a large number of armies, but everywhere they go they are still called T-72's.

lukeiamyourdad
11-14-2005, 11:22 PM
Of course they're never called Iraqi tanks on the field. I think it's quite obvious.

However, when talking about various armies, you'd call a T-72, owned by Iraq, an Iraqi T-72.

so, if a Star Destroyer was then captured by a certain group, you would call it an "Ewok Star Destroyer" huh?

Yes. That isn't even an argument, it's only saying :"Hey, if things are like that funny little teddy bears that everyone hates can own Star Destroyers so that proves my point."

El Sitherino
11-15-2005, 12:29 AM
I'll take an example from the gundam series. When an enemy unit is captured and used it takes on the name of the capturers side. A Zaku would effectively become a Federation Zaku, no longer alligned with the Zeon forces.

Just like when US troops would capture points and various vehicles they attach US such and such to it. Because it's much easier than saying "it's a ******-tank that was officially built by ******* and ******* bought it, but ***** captured it so it's now theirs"

Jan Gaarni
11-15-2005, 01:27 AM
They are never called 'Iraqi tank'. Take for example the Iraqi T-72's.
Try not to contridict yourself in the same thread. ;)
If you truly believed what you are saying you would say: "They are never called 'Iraqi tank'. Take for example the Russian T-72's."

Darth Windu
11-15-2005, 08:58 AM
Jan - I didn't contradict myself. I explained that 'T-72' is the name of the unit, and the Iraqi's used them. Similar to me saying 'Rebel Imperial Star Destroyers'.

Jan Gaarni
11-15-2005, 10:46 AM
No, similar to Rebel Imperial Star Destroyer would be Iraqi Russian tank, or if you are more specific, Iraqi Russian T-72.

WxDude
11-15-2005, 12:01 PM
"Hey, if things are like that funny little teddy bears that everyone hates can own Star Destroyers so that proves my point."

Could you imagine a Star Destroyer run by Ewoks?!?

lukeiamyourdad
11-15-2005, 10:37 PM
Could you imagine a Star Destroyer run by Ewoks?!?

Actually yes. I'm picturing it right now ;)

Dagobahn Eagle
11-16-2005, 06:56 AM
O. T.:
It wasn't changed to that. It was poorly research and lack of understanding how class names are decided upon that lead to the erronomous Imperial-Class designation.
Thank you.
Yes, earliest sources are the ones that count. And the earlier sources say it's an Imperator-class. And the "Super Star Destroyer" is an Executor-class ship, not a "Super-class" ship.

As a side note, video games should never be used as sources. I once actually listed all the errors the Rogue Squadron developers made and they took up more than one MS Word A4 page:rolleyes:.

Could you imagine a Star Destroyer run by Ewoks?!?
Oh my G...[hurls]...