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Beasty1408
11-01-2005, 11:12 AM
I think a must for the Kotor 3 is a remake of the combat system so it goes like this:

instead of turns with flurry and critical and that sort of things it should be a more (using x box controller cause its the one i know) x for quick attack a for strong, l1 for block etc if u get me so u have more cinematic lightsaber battles.

And for force powers u can program them in to the pad or have it so u can pause and activate them.

My reasoning behind this is because the current system its a turn based thing and it doesnt look like a proper battle. I would like a more Revenge of the sith game battle system which it goes into combat like in the old kotor when u press a (again x box controls)

For blasters it should be done in a similar way with an option to hit them with the blaster if they get too close

Also u should be able to change between first person and third person views (imagine a light saber battle in the first person view like elder scrolls)

Any ideas or critizims?

RobQel-Droma
11-01-2005, 11:18 AM
Are you talking about changing it into a more of a Jedi Academy or Episode III game fighting style? If so, NOOOOOOOOO! That has been the way the previous games have been, and it should stay that way.

Beasty1408
11-01-2005, 12:37 PM
No keep it a rpg but make the battles more fighting stlye so that they are continous flowing real time battles rather than turns

IndianaSolo
11-01-2005, 12:51 PM
No keep it a rpg but make the battles more fighting stlye so that they are continous flowing real time battles rather than turns

So basically you are suggesting what RobQel-Droma asked if you're suggesting.

Unless you're talking about a Jade Empire style combat. Even still, I don't think they should change the combat at all for K3. It would make the game completely different from what we know KOTOR to be.

RobQel-Droma
11-01-2005, 01:38 PM
As far as I know, it takes away pretty much what would make the game an RPG.

Darth333
11-01-2005, 02:33 PM
No. Kotor is an RPG based on the d20 system and let's keep it like that. I am personally not a big fan of games where you have to press xyxxya to do a certain move, xxxy for another, etc. If my want to practice my skills and reflexes with a controller, I'll play something else. I hope they never turn Kotor into another button mashing game. Turn base is fine.

Beasty1408
11-01-2005, 02:45 PM
im not talking about combos and that but dont u guys think (by the way before i go any further i love this game im not trying to change it and the way it works dramaticlly) that the fighting system as it is, is choppy and is in no relation to star wars and is not life like

Wouldnt it eb better if it flowed and was not turned based so lightsaber battles looked like (for example) when obi one fought anikan on mustaff were there light sabes swung about clashing looking like a proper battle

As it is at the moment it is one attack then a flurry while hte other person sits there. Then the next one does an attack, then the opposition. Its not realistic and its boring. Cant anyone see what im saying?

Darth333
11-01-2005, 03:19 PM
I know what you are saying and I totally disagree: I like the combat system in kotor and I prefer to have a turned based system that a hack and slash thing. Kotor is a story driven rpg based on the d20 system and let's keep it that way. I don't play it for the "look" of the battles.

RobQel-Droma
11-01-2005, 03:25 PM
I see what you are saying, I just don't agree with changing the combat system. If I wanted to jump around and mash buttons, I would play JA.

JediMaster12
11-01-2005, 03:25 PM
I agree that the KOTOR 3 should stay turn based. My brother plays those combination button games and he already pounded the hell out of the controller. PLEASE keep it like the first KOTOR!

RobQel-Droma
11-01-2005, 03:27 PM
You don't have to change the combat system to make it more fluid, as far as I know. How could you even consider changing the combat system? If it was like JA I wouldn't buy it. Not that I don't like JA, I have it, but KotOR is not a Jedi Knight game. You would lose a lot of fans, it is fine like it is.

The_Maker
11-01-2005, 04:08 PM
What everyone else is saying, keep it an RPG and none of this "Super Attack" and "Normal Attack" junk that litters SW III on Xbox :eekanime:

Blaze629
11-01-2005, 04:41 PM
Well I agree with most of you here for sure. I'm old school. Keep the turn based system. Something I suggested in a previous thread was having multiple animations for attacks, critical strikes, power attacks, and flurries. Have say 4 or more for each type of attack. Whichever animation is used simply depends on what your opponent is doing.

The way the system is right now, you have like 2 different attack animations and the animation for critical strikes, power attacks, and flurries looks exactly the same every time. The only time it changes is when you level up your feats and even then it's only one animation every time you do. I say this needs to be changed but not the entire combat system. I agree that the combat in these games makes them unique and would just like to see more animations for EVERY type of attack in the new game. :)

Beasty1408
11-01-2005, 05:21 PM
ok il back down and acccept it but i would like to say more saber clashes and have it like (dam it cant remmber the game) were it zooms in were u saber clash and u lean one way and the other before one over powers the other (sry bad explanation)

Also u guys keep saying Ja ... whats that?

RobQel-Droma
11-01-2005, 05:33 PM
^Jedi Academy = JA.

I think that is what you are talking about with the saber clashes, like in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.

RedHawke
11-02-2005, 01:37 AM
*Likes it when Darth333 posts makes me have to do less typing.*

I have to go with Darth333 on this one, keep it turn-based D20 I say! ;)

Though if any further Star Wars RPG's are made I would love to see the older WEG D6 RPG system implemented. :D

†Saint_Killa†
11-02-2005, 01:56 AM
keep turn based but more complex animations :)

Prime
11-02-2005, 09:11 AM
But cinematically KOTOR lightsaber combat is way more realistic than any FPS/TPS system that has come out so far. In any event, I don't want the KOTOR series to turn into twitch-based games...

YertyL
11-02-2005, 11:06 AM
You don't have to change the combat system to make it more fluid, as far as I know. How could you even consider changing the combat system? If it was like JA I wouldn't buy it. Not that I don't like JA, I have it, but KotOR is not a Jedi Knight game. You would lose a lot of fans, it is fine like it is.
Agreed! Keep the D20 but make animations more fluid! It looks kinda weird if you are fighting someone to the death and he kindly waits for you to come running to him before he shoots or wait for you to attack before he hits again...
They should really eliminate the small pauses between one attack and another... right now it is like "Hack-hack-hack" - pause - "hack-hack-hack"-pause .... not really realistic or good-looking.

†Saint_Killa†
11-02-2005, 08:24 PM
Dang right ya are my man. It sickens me seeing delays or pauses in between the
combat in animations.

Clone L68362
11-02-2005, 09:15 PM
That argument that it's not realistic is kinda weak. Just cuz they aren't swinging constantly and running around, doesn't mean it doesn't look good. It's like, Attack, 1 second pause, attack, 1 second pause....

†Saint_Killa†
11-02-2005, 09:20 PM
Well, games are supposed to be entertainment right?? That's why improving combat animations gives it more fun to watch and see how your money is worth.

RobQel-Droma
11-02-2005, 10:58 PM
But I don't want them to make that part of the game "entertaining" and do nothing for the other parts. It should take a back seat. If they have a lot of time, do it, if not, there are more important things that should be worked on. Like a good story that is logical. And main quests that are better tied together. Stuff like that. The animations are ok the way they are now, it isn't first priority.

RedHawke
11-02-2005, 11:50 PM
^^^^
I agree Rob, I want more emphasis on giving an engrossing story and complete NPC's, and finishing off the 'features', like Influence*, that TSL already made.

* Like if you turn your NPC DS, they will give darkside responses to converstaions.

Agreed! Keep the D20 but make animations more fluid! It looks kinda weird if you are fighting someone to the death and he kindly waits for you to come running to him before he shoots or wait for you to attack before he hits again...
They should really eliminate the small pauses between one attack and another... right now it is like "Hack-hack-hack" - pause - "hack-hack-hack"-pause .... not really realistic or good-looking.
Unfortunately this is how it will be... hence the term "turn based" combat.

I see many of posters who favor the hyper-action of the FPS, or any of the reflex-laden button-mashing games, so they don't realise that with RPG's it is supposed to be different. With a turn based PnP RPG system like D20 that is how combat looks.

See the KOTOR engine is actually a faithful reprisentation of how combat is done in that system. The very rules of the D20 system itself prohibit many of the things that would allow you to do what you want to add "fluidity" to the game.

Bottom line, "fluidic combat" it isn't happening while using the D20 system, it will always remain ""Hack-hack-hack" -pause- "hack-hack-hack" -pause-", that is how the system works.

Can we see some new combat animations? Yes.
Will combat be "fluid"? No. It will still have the attack, pause, attack combat rounds.

SITHSLAYER133
11-03-2005, 12:20 AM
maybe some new animations but keep the same system because it might alienate people who arnt so good with those games *looks around to see if any watched Sith Call himself a noob*

†Saint_Killa†
11-03-2005, 12:38 AM
>Rob n Redhawke

I didn't say anything that they just focus on animations.
of course I also want all aspects of the game to be good

RobQel-Droma
11-03-2005, 12:54 AM
I never said that you did. I was just commenting that while that might be better, I don't want them to focus on that. And like RedHawke said, the game is a RPG, so it wouldn't be possible.

YertyL
11-03-2005, 08:00 AM
All the D20 system dictates is that a certain number of attacks per round is made by a certain person. However, this does IMO have rather little to do with the animation that is displayed.
All this animation needs to guarantee is that a certain amount of attacks per round is shown (and not even that ... see attacking with Force speed on in KOTOR). However, I cannot see why this necessarily leads to pauses in between rounds or how this should prevent a fluent transgression from the attack animation of one person to the attack animation of the other.

Sabretooth
11-03-2005, 08:45 AM
KotOR's combat sytem isn't that bad, really, but what I'd like is more variety of animation. It can easily look as if it is real-time, but is actually turn-based. Also, it would be cool if combatants would drag a fight from one location to another. Basically, add more variety and change in the system. Sounds and animation should also be fixed. For eg. in this fight with a Dark Jedi, I got stabbed and assaulted (without block) a number of times. Normally, that would be lethal, but I just lost about half-health or something.

They also need to add more interaction with the Force and the Environment. It would be cool, if we'll have Jedi break pillars and shoot rocks at Sith, who fire tiles from the floor like rockets.

spinkle
11-03-2005, 09:56 AM
They also need to add more interaction with the Force and the Environment. It would be cool, if we'll have Jedi break pillars and shoot rocks at Sith, who fire tiles from the floor like rockets.

now THAT is a fantastic idea.

theBlind
11-03-2005, 10:06 AM
All of this is only really interesting for melee combat. Ranged is fine as it is.
Keep the round-based system. But fill the gaps and introduce inverse kinematics for all attacks, including special attacks (ie anything except the standart attack).
Also, have more space between combatants so they can manouver and opponents don't clip into each other.
Then, pre-calculate the rounds effects and display the result over the entire round (that's like it's done now with the pre-calculating, but not with the displaying)

For example, right now, if you do a standart attack on an enemy, there is a chance that the enemy blocks or not. If not, you swing and then wait for the next round.
On the other hand, you and your oppponent could play a series of swings, blocks, feints etc. and, in the end, have the exact same damage done as right now.
The difference is only looks.

Example two - Flurry. By the rules, you do 3 attacks instead of 1. So, the result of all three in calculated and then displayed. Say attack 1 and 2 miss, 3 hits.
In the games as they are right now, you display three attack animations for flurry and thats it then.

Instead, the character displays three attacks (drawn from a central pool of attacks). for the first two, your opponent displays a block animation (looking good because of inverse kinematics) while your third attack connects, doing damage. Here, an attack is not only a single swing but maybe a number of consecutive swings and even counter-swings by your enemy.
The result, once more, is just what you get from the rules right now - just the looks are different.


That said, I agree that this (expect the distance and clipping issues which are rather disturbing to me) is a minor proposal that should *not* take away time from writing a good plot and NPCs. But since the first is done by animators and programmers while the latter is done by scriptwriters, there is not that much overlap.

Prime
11-03-2005, 10:17 AM
All of this is only really interesting for melee combat. Ranged is fine as it is.I agree that it is good now, but there can be improvements. Melee-wise just added more and varied animations for each attack is always welcome. Ranged combat might be helped by having animations where the character hides behind and object and pops up and fires, or leans around a corner to shoot. Perhaps bonuses and penalties could be applied to these sorts of things.

In any event, limiting repetition of animations goes a long way. Other than that, I think the lightsaber combat in the KOTOR series is fantastic...

RedHawke
11-03-2005, 11:11 PM
However, I cannot see why this necessarily leads to pauses in between rounds or how this should prevent a fluent transgression from the attack animation of one person to the attack animation of the other.
That pause is there with good reason... to tell players when their turn is over. So that the player has ample time to pause the game and plan out their moves for the next round, just like you can do in the PnP version.

Remember, RPG's in this style are not there to tax our ability to press buttons quickly, your "fluent transgression" as you put it, would only serve to alter the game to a style of button mashing.

Example: Jade Empire, is still a turn based game, but the combat system, while it is more smooth like you desire, as a side-effect of this it relies more heavily on your dexterity, than your planning, in combat. This is fun for a martial arts themed game, but not for KOTOR...

DarkExcalibur42
11-03-2005, 11:27 PM
i LOVE the d20 combat system. However, I would like to see more work put into the animations (not to say they aren't nice as is). make the fights more exciting to watch, maybe give some camera options (zoom mostly). Lightsaber fights in the movies go back and forth, they don't stand still in one place. Maybe if they could incorporate some motion like that if it would work...

DISCLAIMER: I have only played KOTOR1, so I am ignorant to the improvements (if any) in TSL. I plan to correct that eventually...

YertyL
11-04-2005, 02:07 AM
That pause is there with good reason... to tell players when their turn is over. So that the player has ample time to pause the game and plan out their moves for the next round, just like you can do in the PnP version.

Remember, RPG's in this style are not there to tax our ability to press buttons quickly, your "fluent transgression" as you put it, would only serve to alter the game to a style of button mashing.

Example: Jade Empire, is still a turn based game, but the combat system, while it is more smooth like you desire, as a side-effect of this it relies more heavily on your dexterity, than your planning, in combat. This is fun for a martial arts themed game, but not for KOTOR...
Uhm, so if there are no pauses (of the animation) in between turns I cannot press the "pause" button to plan my new actions?All this would change would be (if at all), that you had to plan maybe two or three rounds in advance, which about everyone does anyway (I would believe that at least).
I still cannot see how a different, more fluent animation should alter the game style - I am just talking about changing the animation, nothing else.
I can not really argue about Jade Empire since I do not know it, but I am pretty sure that for that combat system more than the displayed animations were changed if it works the way you describe it.

theBlind
11-04-2005, 02:38 AM
Plus there's the auto-pause on end of round option.

RedHawke
11-04-2005, 05:33 AM
Uhm, so if there are no pauses (of the animation) in between turns I cannot press the "pause" button to plan my new actions?
Yes you could, but that's not what I was saying, let me elaborate...

If the animations were fluid and combat looked like what you are asking for then as a developer you would need to answer the following questions...

1) How would you know the combat round is over? What would be the indicator?
2) How much time do you give the player to pause the game before the next round?
3) How different from the 2 Prequels would this third installment's combat be? (Too Much and you could alienate some fans.)
4) How much more stressful on the player would this "fluid" combat be?

Remember, not everyone has the reflexes of a cat, and if that pause was gone, or too short because we want fluid combat, there would be no way you could 'clearly' tell when the round is over, that pause is that indicator so slower people* can press pause and plan out there actions.

* By slower people I am referring to the many of us who play RPG's as a relaxing leisurely event, usually with some munchies and refreshment available and not needing to concentrate too hard on things. Or simply players that have slower reaction times, yes they do exist see my example ** below.
All this would change would be (if at all), that you had to plan maybe two or three rounds in advance, which about everyone does anyway (I would believe that at least).
Yes, but as it stands now when my three rounds of orders are completed you can see clearly, by counting the pauses, when it is the time to assign the next three. ;)

With flowing and fluid animations running one into the other I refer you to question 1 above.

I still cannot see how a different, more fluent animation should alter the game style - I am just talking about changing the animation, nothing else.
Sorry, but fluid animations would definately change the gameplay. I know you haven't seen Jade Empire, but it most definatly is a good example of fluid combat in a turn-based game, and likely why they didn't release it for the PC.

Remember these types of RPG's are for all ages, and as such you need to allow for those whom their reflexes are not very high.** You are asking for fluid combat, while it can be done and is very cool looking, this extra 'quick on the pause button' requirement you would introduce would potentially make the game unplayable by a portion of your current audience. When developing a game like this one you need to cater to as many of your audience as you can, since this class of traditional dialogue driven RPG's are not known for button mashing, eye-candy, and flashy combat. For that we have Battlefront II... ;)

** Example: There are some people who have trouble with the Fighter Turret Mini-Game in the KOTOR series, these players just cannot do it, hence why it is optional in TSL. These players, who want to play the game but lack the extra manual dexterity for the turret game complained, so the devs didn't want to alienate them by leaving the Turret Game as a requirement.

But let me finish by saying yes, they could add more types of combat animations, I would expect some more for KOTOR III surely. But that combat pause will still be necissary. As we are talking KOTOR III here, and KOTOR and TSL already having combat this way, I wouldn't expect this to change either.

Personally, I don't care if the combat stays the same, I just want the storyline to be complete and engrossing, the different NPC's, and everything already present the game engine (Like Influence, and actually being able to convert your NPC's) to be fully fleshed out before adding any new things in. :D

RobQel-Droma
11-04-2005, 11:15 AM
I am not going to quote Redhawke or elaborate on that. I will just say:

What he said :).

Inspectre
11-21-2005, 10:28 AM
no bugs for kotor 3
more characters

JediMaster12
11-21-2005, 11:51 AM
The combat system should stay the same. When I play TSL it looks more fluid like maybe it's becasue I change up the attack line, alternate different attacks. To be honest I like this mode of combat but like many others I feel the most important thing is have a storyline that makes sense and ties in the other two games.

YertyL
11-21-2005, 12:46 PM
You can still see when rounds are over if you look at the status bar in which your attacks are symbolized. When your action is finished, the icon disappears and the round is over.
And why an "extra 'quick on the pause button' requirement"??
I am not suggesting to make rounds shorter, just to make the pauses between the animations shorter. You would still have 1-3 seconds (that's what it is now I think) to press the pause button... you would just need to be fast if you wanted to plan each round seperately, which I do not believe many players do...

Rediy
11-21-2005, 02:35 PM
Knights of the Old Republic and its sequal were, and are some of the best d20 games around. Sorry, I think the combat should stay exactly the way it is. More special attacks is one thing, but changing it to a FPS style game play would definitely ruin the game for me. If KOTOR 3 goes away from the dice roll system, I will not be buying it. I don't play games like Doom and Half-Life for a reason (boring)

rhinomatt
11-21-2005, 03:54 PM
star wars KOTOR is a rpg it is not about the skill of fighting it is more the skil of how you use what you have and choose what to do!
NEVER CHANGE THE COMBAT

Axe Windu
11-21-2005, 04:09 PM
Why does everyone wanna change the combat system? There are tons of other Star Wars games that let you pick up a blaster and blow things up or run around with a lightsaber. This is an RPG... its based off the d20 system the best RPG system there is... The fact that this game is set up like this is what makes it so amazing. We are not gonna change the combat style halfway through a trilogy to make it more like a fighting game.

ilwugoalie
11-21-2005, 04:31 PM
Why does everyone wanna change the combat system? There are tons of other Star Wars games that let you pick up a blaster and blow things up or run around with a lightsaber. This is an RPG... its based off the d20 system the best RPG system there is... The fact that this game is set up like this is what makes it so amazing. We are not gonna change the combat style halfway through a trilogy to make it more like a fighting game.

I agree, leave well enough alone. like you said above there are plenty of other Star Wars games out there... you dont like the way this one plays, dont buy it.. get something else

:sithk:

JediMaster12
11-23-2005, 02:41 PM
I agree. I've played Episode III on the XBox and I still can't figure out how I get the really combos for bonus points.

Note: What you read here must not be revealled to anyone beyond these forums.

To give a secret, I watch military documentaries and I destroy my brothers toy soldiers with battle attacks sooo, I know how to plan my moves for KOTOR. Leave KOTOR as a RPG game. It's soooo cool!! :slsaber:

Beasty1408
11-26-2005, 06:17 PM
i havent checked this for a while and what i meant in the first place was not making it a fighting game but make it like the elderscrolls series (mainly oblivion)

IndianaSolo
11-26-2005, 07:02 PM
i havent checked this for a while and what i meant in the first place was not making it a fighting game but make it like the elderscrolls series (mainly oblivion)

Oblivion isn't even out yet. How are you going to compare it to Oblivion before you know whether the combat is good or not?

ilwugoalie
11-28-2005, 02:56 PM
i havent checked this for a while and what i meant in the first place was not making it a fighting game but make it like the elderscrolls series (mainly oblivion)


Oblivion isn't even out yet. How are you going to compare it to Oblivion before you know whether the combat is good or not?

IndianaSolo has a good point here... you cant make a judgement like that from watching videos and seeing screen shots from Oblivion. If that is indeed where you are coming from.

either way, leave the engine how it is.

Cygnus Q'ol
11-29-2005, 01:22 PM
I am not going to quote Redhawke or elaborate on that. I will just say:

What he said :).

No need to waste space, what he said.

Liit Orda
11-30-2005, 09:05 AM
Kotor's fighting system's fine. Why fix something that ain't broke?

FiEND_138
11-30-2005, 09:13 AM
Kotor's fighting system's fine. Why fix something that ain't broke?
Quoted for emphasis...

JediMaster12
11-30-2005, 08:06 PM
Ditto