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Axe Windu
11-10-2005, 04:52 AM
KOTOR 3 The True Sith or The Return of Revan or Return of the Sith

Ok I know there are a ton of these and I stated most of this already but Im gonna recap.

The True Sith... whether they are strong believers in the sith ideal, incarnations of the dark side, the true sith species or hybrids they need to be in here. I think its very possible they will be and I think they need to be. I want it to be clear the exile and revan went to fight them. I also would like but dont think it is neccisary that they invade known space. This is like my third time saying this but itd be awesome. A cutscreen where the True Sith invade space and either Clan Ordo or Republic fleet head up by admiral Onasi assembles to stop them. Or maybe both? Then upon arriving at the scene you find them anialated and either Carth or Canderous dead. Maybe you can go aboard there ship and get there last words or bring them to the hawk to heal them getting a new party member. Or maybe you can find remnants of what destroyed them on board. Either way a new extraordinary tough enemy with a very evil feal would be awesome. Even more awesome would to possibly get a True Sith party member. Maybe only if your dark side or something.

Ebon Hawk. Honostly this may be hard because if the Ebon Hawk went beyond the outer rim where Revan is then how are you gonna board it? T-3 is just gonna taxi it back again? I dunno ill think about this.

T-3 and HK. R2 and 3PO except make them cooler. Not that there not cool... there very very cool... just cooler. More HK the more HK the better.

Faster lightsabor creation. Wait but less then the other 2 games. I hate waiting for my weapon/tool.

A saturated storyline. I want to know everything I could know. What happened to Revan? What happened to the crew of TSL. Did they go on to spawn a new Jedi order? How is there a new Jedi order werent the Jedi like extinct at the end of TSL? No loopholes, no confusion, everything makes sense and a complex interweaving storyline.

New Force Powers. Duh.. there gonna be there... I dunno what though but Im sure theyll think of something. I like how Anikan used Beast Control in Ep2. The only force power that is in the movies but not the game I think its move object. It would be hard but not that hard. A nuetral power that lets you take loose objects around and heave them at a target. I mean all they would have to do is have some projectiles you can heave lying around. Maybe Kreias lightsabor kinesis fighting.

New Classes and or Prestige Classes. Also think theyll be there but I dont know what.

New Feats: Maybe an advanced form of weapon finess?

More costumizable character and clothing. Including cooler face masks and maybe items from characters in previous games. Id really apreciate being able to costumize your looks more.

Cool planets: Hoth, Coriscant, Mostifa, to be able to go in the temple on Coriscant would be amazing.

Nothing left out! Everything well thought out and complete

More and some cooler and Star Wars esc party members

What happened with the HK50s and GOTO. Maybe more HK50s

New Skill(s)?

Play as an Alien?

New Lightsabor colors (are there any left? Pink?)

A really complex Jedi Temple

Training again, it just gives the star wars feal... either on a one on one basis or in a temple. A really stereotypical Jedi like Bastilla in your party would be cool.

Cooler lightsabor crystals, and if there gonna make one specialized to you atleast have you have some major influence on what it does.

More advanced inplants like Baodurs arm. Genereal Grievous and Vader stuff.

Either Duel of Fates or the fight song from the Obi Won Anikan fight.

I dont even think they should ask you about the other games. I think they should assume all possible scenarios based on what generally would have happened in the average game LS or DS. Carth, Canderous, Revan, Bastilla, Atton, T3, HK, and Baodur should all have a cameo if not a semi serious role. Like Id like to see Carth commanding a fleet and Canderous commanding Mandalorians but I dont think they need to rejion your party. Also maybe Jolee somehow like an old holo vid or something, And maybe Handmaiden or Visas to add more from TSL I cant decide if I wanna see them again or not. More visas she was kinda cool. I dont think they should show the exile just mention what happened to him.

Ive said this before and got the basic idea from someone else but my perfect opener to kotor 3 would be as follows. Its clowdy around the edges like in kotor 1. You see a ship land on a planet like a more deserty version of Mostifa. Like Koribaan with Lava. A ramp lowers and slowly a man in a black cloak walks out followed by a reluctant T3 M4. You get a glympse of the figures face and its revan full mask. As he walks towards the right side of the screen away from the hawk you hear something I dunno an evil sound or something from offscreen. He extends one red lightsabor. He then notions to the driod who wimpers to the ship and the ramp rises. Maybe you see the ship take off. Then a couple flashes and Revan is fighting something you cant make out but its black. Then you wake up. Now first Revan could be wearing his robes for many reasons it doesnt mean hes evil it just means hes Revan. Two... this is a force vision, you can talk about it in game, when you get the Hawk and T3 you can say you were in my vision... it is not a dream it is showing you what happened to Revan. Thats just my idea.

SITHSLAYER133
11-10-2005, 06:29 AM
man ur on track good work !!!

RobQel-Droma
11-10-2005, 11:26 AM
It is MUSTAFAR, not Mostifa :D.

I have doubts about the True Sith, the devs already said that they were extinct a millenia ago, and I don't see them contradicting themselves if they have any sense. And it wasn't something said in game, you were told it by the messages on the loading screens, so it is a fact.

I don't think Carth should have to die, although the idea is intriguing for him to die fighting off the enemy. Definitely not Canderous, as he is supposed to be a party member, by my version. I think that the clans should be in there though, either against you or for you perhaps depending on what you do.

They would have to ask you about what happened in the other games, though. If the game just did it on its own people are going to see Bastila when they killed her in K1, Carth when they killed him in K1, and several others. They are going to have to find some way if they are going to bring them back in, otherwise, the game would seem stupid because all these people came back to life.

Other than that, I don't have much problem with it. New Classes, yes, perhaps they should have prestiege classes for non-Jedi classes. And then make Tech Specialist and others classes you can reach. More force powers, more items, more weapons, more lightsabers, no aliens, keep HK and T3, a complex Jedi Temple. Perhaps like the one on Coruscant, where you can almost explore through it and learn a bunch of things (perhaps feats, skills, powers) from several masters hanging around. Bastila should be your Jedi Master for a while and in your party temporarily if you didn't kill her in K1.

Cygnus Q'ol
11-10-2005, 11:41 AM
Definately more gear
...and not necessarily Jedi equipment either.

I like the idea of a broader selection of clothing, armor, and equipment.
But, I'd like to see more things upgradeable.

There should be a larger selection of upgrades for weapons and clothing earlier in the game to accent the choices you make which help solidify your path.

I also hope they can add some excitement to the ship dogfighting gameplay.
That definately needs to be upgraded.

Axe Windu
11-10-2005, 02:55 PM
Ok one I dont care how I spell my fictional planets. Cool your right guess what I dont care lol... you know what I meant. Two I do not care what the loading screen said. Kreia said the true sith are out there Revan went to fight um you gotta go fight um too... that has to mean something. Maybe the sith species is extinct but there are hybrids or decendants, or maybe its just really really evil dudes. Ive already said this the sealecant was a fish that we thought was extinct for over 1000 years and we found one. Its beyond the outer rim who knows whats out there. Dont they even call it the UNKNOWN region. Nothing is set in stone its very possible.

I dont think Canderous should be in your party again. Hes Mandalore he has to have more important things to do. He should be in the game though.

It would be awesome to get in a space fight that wasnt just a easy turret game. Like Id like something like in the begining of ep3. Just a crazy space battle.

In TSL didnt Carth appear even if you said you were lightside... which means you couldve been lightside and killed him... and didnt Bastilla appear no matter what you said meaning you didnt kill her. Like I said I think they shoudl just do what htey assumed would happen in your average game light or dark. Which means no Jolee because there was a 50% chance you killed him. Maybe a holovid or something.

What about Force Adept? A nuetral Jedi Counseler but better?

I also think after this game if they consider making another one they should cut this storyline off. It should be a trilogy and if they do make a kotor 4 then it should be a whole new deal. Maybe a reference to Revan or something but its gonna get to be too much to add on. Maybe a prequal? You could actually fight in the mandalorian wars. Or maybe go back to Exur Kun... or maybe 1000 years in the future.

RobQel-Droma
11-10-2005, 03:23 PM
Ok one I dont care how I spell my fictional planets. Cool your right guess what I dont care lol... you know what I meant

I was letting you know, just for next time, so that we wouldn't have to puzzle out terrible spelling.

Two I do not care what the loading screen said. Kreia said the true sith are out there Revan went to fight um you gotta go fight um too... that has to mean something.

First of all, I do not care what Kreia said. People lie in-game, while the loading screen is a fact given to us by the devs. And why does Kreia get all the "Best Liar" Awards? Besides, "True Sith" could mean anything. It doesn't have to mean Sith the species, it could mean really powerful Sith, it could mean anything. The True Sith are dead, they have been dead, regardless of how enamored you are with them.

Ive already said this the sealecant was a fish that we thought was extinct for over 1000 years and we found one.

It is a game/book/comic/whatever, not real life. These are accepted FACTS, that were given to us by people who wrote the books/comics and created the games. This is not real life, we are reading about things that are made up, and they said that the True Sith died out 1000 years ago. There is nothing to discover. If they put them in there they would be contradicting who knows how many things, because so many people have said, in games, in books, in comics, made by Star Wars writers and game makers, that they are extinct. Now they are going to go back and say that every single person was all wrong and all the things that Sith said about what happened was wrong!?

Axe Windu
11-10-2005, 03:43 PM
Theyd be taking back one loading screen... woopty do. I thnk that other Rob dude in another thread explained perfectly how the True Sith could return. He is the man.

RobQel-Droma
11-10-2005, 07:59 PM
It is not just one loading screen. It is a bunch of comics, books, and statements made that all said "The true Sith are extinct, and have been for a millenia." And what exactly are you talking about True Sith, now? Now all of a sudden you have me confused. You are talking about the species, right?

RobQel-Droma
11-10-2005, 08:59 PM
Sorry about double posting anyone.

Gradually, as time went on, the Sith Lords and the Dark Jedi interbred, creating human offspring who were VERY Force-attuned. Soon, the Sith became obsolete in extinction, as the Human-Sith offspring soon evolved into total human beings.

That does say later that there were some that were still of them that had Sith blood in them, but it sounds like they all died out. After wars and such, there were hardly anyone left, and the Dark Jedi/Sith became "The Sith." The species became exctinct, as it says.

As years passed, and interbreeding occurred between the Dark Jedi and the Sith, the term "Sith" came to mean not the original insect-like inhabitants of Korriban, but their Dark Jedi masters

True Sith can mean a lot of things, Windu. When Kreia said that, do you really know that she was talking about a species? Was she talking about dark Lords of the Sith that were controlling everything, the ones who really had the right to power? Was she talking about super Dark Jedi that are the Sith'ari? Sith'ari, by the way, is not the Sith species, I am talking about the person that Yuthura talked about. (Sith'ari is believed to be the same as the chosen one by the way)

Because the Sith as a species are extinct... They were basically extinct as a species before the Great Sith War with Exar Kun...

Axe Windu
11-10-2005, 09:45 PM
Ok... I dont care... its beyond the outer rim... I think the True Sith could be the species, hybrids not just pure humans, or dark side incarnations. If Kreia was refering to normal people then they better be some real bad asses. And you dont get much worse then Scion or Nihlis. But I do not think involving a Sith race would be that big of a deal. There beyong the outer rim... who cares. I hate super nerds who have to go oh in this book they said this... whatever who cares... Episode 1-3 contridicted stuff in books Im sure it wouldnt be crazy to have some remnints of the sith species beyond the outer rim.

RobQel-Droma
11-10-2005, 11:10 PM
I hate super nerds who have to go oh in this book they said this... whatever who cares.

Thankfully I am not offended by that, because I could be :). You must be saying that I am a super nerd; If so, thank you for the complement :D.

You have to look at a lot of things, Windu, you can't just go "Oh I want this", and then go "whatever who cares" when someone says something that would contradict it. You just can't shrug off everything because it doesn't matter to you, and you want to see the "True Sith" or whatever. I just looked and remembered things that would cause problems, I wouldn't have any problem with your idea if it wasn't contradicted so many times. :)

I am going on what has been said countless times, that is the reason why I used it. Episode I-III as far as I know didn't contradict anything major. So it does amount for something, a lot more than Kreia saying something that could get interpreted countless ways... But no matter :D. You want to see the True Sith, I don't really care, I think it would mess up too many EU things (although I am fine with 1/5 true Sith, 4/5 human).

RedHawke
11-11-2005, 02:53 AM
It is not just one loading screen. It is a bunch of comics, books, and statements made that all said "The true Sith are extinct, and have been for a millenia."

You have to look at a lot of things, Windu, you can't just go "Oh I want this", and then go "whatever who cares" when someone says something that would contradict it. You just can't shrug off everything because it doesn't matter to you, and you want to see the "True Sith" or whatever.
But this is the realm of EU Rob, and Axe can definately ignore the parts he wants to. ;) He only replied with the "whatever who cares" when you were arguing with him.

Arguing EU tidbits is like spitting in the wind... it makes no real sense, and just comes back in your face! :D

You want to see the True Sith, I don't really care, I think it would mess up too many EU things (although I am fine with 1/5 true Sith, 4/5 human).
Sorry Rob, but "The True Sith" do not have to be extinct as you valiently argue, no matter your sources... remember this is EU and as such people have every right to not side with what some of the lesser talented writers spoon-feed the masses.

From what I have read (Also EU of course, but what I personally subscribe to) the "True Sith" were able to use the whole of the Force, and were immune to the corruption of the Darkside. They have vanished, but it is highly unlikely that any such ancient and powerful race would be truely "extinct". In some cases they might have done so for their benefit.

Extinction is very hard to prove. It is not unheard of for an "extinct" species to suddenly re-appear with no warning. This has happened here on our own little planet. ;)

Episode 1-3 contridicted stuff in books Im sure it wouldnt be crazy to have some remnints of the sith species beyond the outer rim.
I agree, and it is not very far fetched either. They could also simply be hiding on some lesser-known world also.

My only problem is if they are portrayed badly, they should not only be beings of "great evil" but they should have examples of all the alignments, be as varied in alignment as we humans are. We could even have a part of the game where we learn some powerful Force Techniques, from an allied True Sith.

Axe Windu
11-11-2005, 03:35 AM
Thank you thank you thank you. You more or less said what I thought but put it smarter. Where I just said who cares thats what I meant. I totally 100% agree. I even mentioned that tidbit about it happening on our planet with the sealacant.

RobQel-Droma
11-11-2005, 01:06 PM
I guess it is because I don't like to ignore EU. Even if some of the things are total crap, people have said it time and time again, the True Sith are dead. That is enough for me; I would think the devs would not want to just contradict things. It is not that I would hate it if I had to fight them, it is just that I don't think it will work.

Sorry Rob, but "The True Sith" do not have to be extinct as you valiently argue, no matter your sources... remember this is EU and as such people have every right to not side with what some of the lesser talented writers spoon-feed the masses.

But a lot of it is not "EU." That History of the Sith thing, and others; those weren't comic book stories, or books written about the Sith, those were books all about giving you detail on the bare history of them. Books that just tell you what happened to them, not some story where a character says that they died out, in which case it could be contradicted. And you notice none of them say "The True Sith vanished, and were believed to be extinct"; No, they say "The True Sith because extinct." There is no suggestion that maybe they are out there somewhere.

Extinction is very hard to prove. It is not unheard of for an "extinct" species to suddenly re-appear with no warning. This has happened here on our own little planet.

But we are not talking about our world, we are talking about the Star Wars universe. That little thing about the Sealacant is irrevelant; We don't know everything about our world. However, this is a made up universe where people have told the detailed history of certain parts like this; It is not like they could be mistaken, because they made it up. It is all dependant on what they said, they are the ones who came up with it- they didn't "discover" the history and base it on what they thought, they made the history.

But this is the realm of EU Rob, and Axe can definately ignore the parts he wants to. He only replied with the "whatever who cares" when you were arguing with him.

But that I have a problem with. Even if it is crap that is said by not so talented writers, it is more than one. And the problem I had with Axe is that he was pretty much saying that "I want to see the True Sith so bad that I don't care what anything else says, I want to fight them." That is what he said, or at least what he told me. I have a problem with his saying "whatever who cares" especially when it is based on nothing, just on his being enamored with the True Sith.

And besides, you say that he can ignore what parts he wants to? Wouldn't that be selective? He would probably ignore all the parts that said the True Sith are extinct, but would look for anything that just barely hinted at them being still alive.

The_Maker
11-11-2005, 03:13 PM
Not to come off rude or anything (most of your other ideas I like), but I just do not understand why everybody thinks K3 will either have;

Chiss,
Yhouzon Vong or Yhouzon Vong type species (sp)
The "True Sith",

I mean cmon, can't there be something better in the pre-TPM universe than "du rEel s1hT 0gMz!!!1!"

There has to be something more interesting and story creative than the "Real Sith". Just because Yuthura ban in K1 mentioned the "Sith'ari" doesn't mean the devs are going to go on some wild crusade to re-clone, re-invent, and re-create the "Real Sith"
:whacked:

H2O_dk
11-11-2005, 03:57 PM
What I want in KOTOR 3:

HK-47 & T3-M4
COMPLETE STORY

everthing else is just a bonus for me

Axe Windu
11-11-2005, 05:30 PM
Rob dude you got too much time on your hands... you just gotta accept that there are tons of resources in star wars and they contridict eachother... it wouldnt be that big of a deal to include the real sith... even if they say oh the sith are def extinct its beyond the outer rim int he UNKNOWN regions. This gives them a liscense to do whatever they want. They could bring in the damn borg and be like yeah apparantly they lived in the unknown regions who knew.

Screw the Yusang Vong... if they are in this game I am not playing it. I hate them I hate them I hate them. They are stupid, there only existance is because there needed to be a different kind of enemy for luke and them to fight. They better not be in this game. However they are a good example of who knows what in unknown space.

RobQel-Droma
11-11-2005, 08:30 PM
Rob dude you got too much time on your hands.

No I do not, I just have time to go and look at what hundreds of sources all agree on.

it wouldnt be that big of a deal to include the real sith... even if they say oh the sith are def extinct its beyond the outer rim int he UNKNOWN regions. This gives them a liscense to do whatever they want.

Wrong. Definitely extinct means just that. Extinct. There is no in between. It isn't "well, they are extinct maybe, but it is the Unknown Regions so they could be alive." That doesn't make any sense at all. Alright, I suppose they can do anything they want, but to contradict a ton that say "The Sith are extinct" is really bad on their part.

Screw the Yusang Vong... if they are in this game I am not playing it. I hate them I hate them I hate them. They are stupid, there only existance is because there needed to be a different kind of enemy for luke and them to fight. They better not be in this game.

Tell me one thing. How different would the Yuuzhan Vong be from the True Sith? Why would they not be in there just because there needed to be a different kind of enemy?

you just gotta accept that there are tons of resources in star wars and they contridict eachother

No, not on the True Sith. Every single source out there says that they died out. Tons of authors agreeing on the same thing can not be wrong. And you seem to forget the fact that it isn't like the movies against EU; KotOR is EU, it is about EU, it has EU characters in it- face it, Knights of the Old Republic, made by LA and Bioware, is EU. This is all EU we are talking about, and if every other single EU source says that "The Sith are extinct," the devs are not going to be the odd one in the bunch that says "no, the Sith are not extinct."

Have you really given me any reason to agree with you? No, you haven't. You have yet to make any kind of intelligent argument for yourself. All you have said for yourself is pretty much, as The_Maker put it, "du rEel s1hT 0gMz!!!1!" or "it is the Unknown Regions they could be out there" (despite that EU all says no); or, you have said "whatever I don't care." Not much reason to side with you on that one if you can't make a good argument as to why they will be there. Redhawke was really the one that made an intelligent argument for it.

RedHawke
11-12-2005, 02:17 AM
I just have time to go and look at what hundreds of sources all agree on.
Sorry Rob but, your arguments and "hundreds of sources" hold no more water than Axe's or mine... The EU is not required, nor has to be adknowledged by anyone... That is a fact, agree with it or not!

While KOTOR III is EU and does have to follow some basic EU guidelines, adhering to the "Extinctness" of the True Sith they most certainly do not, especially now that it is a possible story point introduced by Kreia's dialogue.

FYI, ask 8 out of 10 SW PnP RPG-ers and the "True Sith" are still around. ;)

But that I have a problem with.

And besides, you say that he can ignore what parts he wants to? Wouldn't that be selective?
Any information outside the Cannonical (The Movies, Scripts, or Radioplays) can be ignored because they are EU. Agree with it or not Rob this is how it works.

The EU, and all of it's information is like a salad bar, you personally can take what you want and leave the rest. It is very selective, and based on personal taste. ;)

At this point you are attmepting to argue EU points, and in these arguments, unless specifics are involved, like; What color is Kyle Katarns Saber? Or who piloted the Outrider? You will always lose, because there can be no winner.

Notice I never argued EU facts with you I only stated "But this is the realm of EU Rob, and Axe can definately ignore the parts he wants to." I'm not saying you are "wrong" Rob, or Axe is "right", the fact is you are both "right" and both "wrong" because that is the way of EU. Again no matter if you like it or not.

Example: I accept the TotJ, the KOTOR series, and the Thrawn Trilogy, and several others for my take on the EU, but I don't accept the NJO story and a ton of others... no one can 'force' me to either. You are basically trying to do something like that to Axe, about a 'True Sith' topic that the TSL game itself hints to with Kreia.

Wrong. Definitely extinct means just that. Extinct. There is no in between.
*Clears Throat* :roleyess:

Re-read my post again on "Extinct" it is virtually impossible to prove, and means nothing in the end, as Extinct species have returned... I could write down that the Parakeet (Real World), or the Vulcans (Star Trek), or the Twileks (Star Wars), are an Extinct species, and even pay to have it published all around the world, and hosted on thousands of Websites, does it make it true? No!

Just because the galaxy at large hasn't seen a particular Race does not make them "Extinct" Rob, even though the "lesser" Races believe them so and write it down that way, it doesn't make it the truth. :rolleyes:

But we are not talking about our world, we are talking about the Star Wars universe. That little thing about the Sealacant is irrevelant; We don't know everything about our world. However, this is a made up universe where people have told the detailed history of certain parts like this; It is not like they could be mistaken, because they made it up. It is all dependant on what they said, they are the ones who came up with it- they didn't "discover" the history and base it on what they thought, they made the history.
Sorry Rob, but I disagree with your assessment... if we do not know everything about our one little planet, what makes you believe that in Star Wars they know everything about their galaxy? Even if the Republic stood for 20,000 Years that's still quite impossible Rob. Galaxies are huge places and it is common knowledge there are unexplored places in the galaxy in Star Wars, this means anything is possible.

Again your EU "Extinct True Sith" argument holds no water, no more than Axe's or mine saying they are still around, I give you points for trying though! ;)

Redhawke was really the one that made an intelligent argument for it.
Thanks for the compliment! :D

But to clairify I was neither arguing for or against the subject, I mainly was trying to inform you, Rob, about the facts that when discussing the EU not everyone will see things the way you do, or has to accept what you do as fact. I know you think it is "selective" and you don't like it much, but that is the nature of the EU "beast". That's all! :)

RobQel-Droma
11-20-2005, 06:53 PM
I would rather have a majority of EU agree with each other, it just would make more sense. Maybe it is just me, but why go against the flow? I am not saying that there couldn't be a possibility for them, but it just doesn't make sense that they would come back (for me).

BTW, what do you think personally? :D

RedHawke
11-21-2005, 02:48 AM
BTW, what do you think personally? :D
The EU is simply tolerated Apocrypha. I don't adknowledge the parts I don't like, and I never will agree with a lot that has been done in the EU.

If you mean about the True Sith, then look above in my post (#12), near the middle! ;)

I have written an entire D6 RPG campaign revolving around the True Sith, the Duinougwuins (Star Dragons), and several other Races. This counts more than anyone elses EU to me because it is mine. ;)

Hence why arguing EU is pointless, everyone has their own version, and no one can be truely Vong... er'... Wrong. :D