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Cygnus Q'ol
11-29-2005, 10:05 AM
Would it be feasible, and are there any advantages of being able to brandish a pistol and a melee simultaneously?

Some say, Yes.
Some say, No.

Me, I use whatever gets the job done.
I might try it for novelty's sake.

Robb Stark
11-29-2005, 11:00 AM
I suggested this long long ago before TSL came out and everyone laughed at me.

My thought was holding an off-hand saber for blaster bolt deflection and a blaster for actual combat. Nobody saw any reason for holding a saber for defensive purposes only and instead envisioned trying to attack with the saber and blaster simultaneously which would obviously have devastating consequences.

As for a melee weapon other than a saber, I think it would be fine too but focusing mostly on its use as a defensive weapon against an enemy using a melee attack.

Maybe something like this:
Off-hand melee weapon with a main-hand blaster has -4 Attack on top of the normal dual-wield penalty, but eliminates the defense penalty against melee attacks when wielding a ranged weapon. In addition, a small off-hand weapon adds a +2 to melee defense. So it is useful as a defensive strategy, and you can attack with it at melee range, but not as effectively as if you were dual-wielding two melees.

Rediy
11-29-2005, 11:23 AM
Why not just add that silly looking energy shields that were used in Episode I. I dunno, it all seems sort of... unnecesary.

This sounds more like something that belongs in a Warhammer 40,000 RPG than Star Wars.

Cygnus Q'ol
11-29-2005, 01:15 PM
I suggested this long long ago before TSL came out and everyone laughed at me.

My thought was holding an off-hand saber for blaster bolt deflection and a blaster for actual combat. Nobody saw any reason for holding a saber for defensive purposes only and instead envisioned trying to attack with the saber and blaster simultaneously which would obviously have devastating consequences.

As for a melee weapon other than a saber, I think it would be fine too but focusing mostly on its use as a defensive weapon against an enemy using a melee attack.

Maybe something like this:
Off-hand melee weapon with a main-hand blaster has -4 Attack on top of the normal dual-wield penalty, but eliminates the defense penalty against melee attacks when wielding a ranged weapon. In addition, a small off-hand weapon adds a +2 to melee defense. So it is useful as a defensive strategy, and you can attack with it at melee range, but not as effectively as if you were dual-wielding two melees.

I was thinking something on the same lines.
A short saber, loaded with blaster bolt deflection and defensive upgrades in the off hand, while wielding an upgraded Static-electric or Mandalorian heavy pistol with master percision to go up against those force users who are foolish enough to think the force can save them.

JediMaster12
11-29-2005, 03:55 PM
Not a bad suggestion and I'm not laughing. I often thought what it would be like to brandish a melee (or saber) and a blaster in attack. I've tried actual simulations with my brother to see if feasible and it is. It could add a little flavor to the game.
:gben: The Jedi Master agrees!

Vladimir-Vlada
11-29-2005, 05:28 PM
I remember suggesting this also. But not as good as you people. I agree. :D

lukeiamyourdad
11-29-2005, 05:41 PM
It's not good balancing. So no.

Vladimir-Vlada
11-29-2005, 05:47 PM
It's not good balancing. So no.
Why? It's just to improve the looks. And you won't be shooting and sword-fighting at the same time. You can sycle through the attack options and see "Attack Melee" or "Attack Ranged", it really isn't that bad. Maybe it could slow you down, like decrease Dexterity by 1 and decrease Fortitude. It's not so bad if you ask me.

lukeiamyourdad
11-29-2005, 05:54 PM
Oh yeah, it is. The disadvantage of using blasters as a Jedi instead of lightsabers is mainly the blaster bolt deflection capabilities. In TSL, the blasters were heavily improved in attack power, thus that fact became more obvious.

It might not be more powerful than using two sabers, but it's blurring the line too much between melee and ranged.
Add to that, single saber wielders are even weaker.
Worst is personnal shields are rendered nearly useless. What's the point of using a shield with a blaster now?

Besides, it frankly looks stupid. Nobody can decently fight that way.

Vladimir-Vlada
11-29-2005, 06:03 PM
It's just an option, you know.

lukeiamyourdad
11-29-2005, 06:10 PM
Sure it is, but what good is an option if people don't use it? Even in Single player.

If I find it worthless to use x weapon or x skill or x anything, I won't. With options like these, we could just forget about single saber wielders.

Vladimir-Vlada
11-29-2005, 06:15 PM
If I find it worthless to use x weapon or x skill or x anything, I won't. With options like these, we could just forget about single saber wielders.
You can equip whatever you want even if the ability to wield both melee and range weapon at the same time. It's a matter of will, you can equip a single saber, no one will complain; Some people would like to have a Melee and a Ranged weapon at the same time, but that they are not forced to it by the programming.

Mono_Giganto
11-29-2005, 09:04 PM
But it eliminates the logical point of using a single saber, when you can use one and a blaster.

RedHawke
11-30-2005, 01:37 AM
^^^^
*Blam... Blam!* "So uncivilized!" :ben:

But seriously, in the PnP RPG your character either is armed for Ranged or Melee combat, usually you cannot do both...

If they were to implement this you could expect some stiff penalties to your Reflex Saves, Blaster Bolt Deflection and To-Hit rolls, possibly even partial or total loss of your Dexterity based Defense Bonus... too much penalty for too little reward IMO.

Liit Orda
11-30-2005, 08:58 AM
I think it'd be cool. I mean there was a guy in Tenchu who used a sword and a shotgun and that worked like a beast, you know? Some amazing moves to be done.

Cygnus Q'ol
11-30-2005, 11:24 AM
^^^^
*Blam... Blam!* "So uncivilized!" :ben:

But seriously, in the PnP RPG your character either is armed for Ranged or Melee combat, usually you cannot do both...

If they were to implement this you could expect some stiff penalties to your Reflex Saves, Blaster Bolt Deflection and To-Hit rolls, possibly even partial or total loss of your Dexterity based Defense Bonus... too much penalty for too little reward IMO.

Perhaps, but it would still be the choice of the player. Sometimes you have to take a penalty to get an edge elsewhere.

...and if you want to be a single hilt player, then, by all means, go right ahead.

Some of us like to experiment in all kinds of disposal methods.

lukeiamyourdad
11-30-2005, 11:52 AM
Perhaps, but it would still be the choice of the player. Sometimes you have to take a penalty to get an edge elsewhere.

But if the penalty is too great, would you even consider using it? You might try it out for one or two fights and realize it's not worth it.

...and if you want to be a single hilt player, then, by all means, go right ahead.

That's not the point. They have a hard time already balancing dual, double and single. No need for a third one jumping in and unbalancing everything even more.


Some of us like to experiment in all kinds of disposal methods.

It seems like this is the usual answer. However, balancing is important, whether it be MP or SP. It might seem to affect MP more, but I like my SP games to be also balanced.
Right now, there's virtually no reason why anyone, non-hardcore, should play with a single saber. Some polls on the official site show this. It's only:"Dual or double blade?" Rarely do we get to see single.
Why? Because single blade users are definitely weaker then dual or double. Their advantages are puny. +3 attack and +3 defense with Master Dueling. That's a tiny advantage compared to the sheer damage a double-blade can inflict. Even if the +3 to attack and +3 to defense come into play, the second the double-blader touches you, you're screwed.
It's the same for dual blade users.

Add to that the ability to wield a blaster and a saber for both ranged and melee. So unless there's some major penalties, here's another option to pound single saberists to the ground.

But it's just an option you'll say...no, it isn't just an option. That oversimplifies eveything. You'd have to remember that if you can do that, enemy NPCs can do it too. What if it's really overpowered and the AI is smart enough to use it efficiently? It'll be fun.

But enough about balance, has anyone thought of how weird it would look? How can a Jedi concentrate on aiming correctly and blocking at the same time?
Sure, they do have melee and ranged mixed in other games. Warhammer 40K for example. But does the Space Marine Commander block enemy fire while shooting back? No.
It simply is too unrealistic to even be considered.

Bob Lion54
11-30-2005, 01:41 PM
I would say no. Apart from looking silly, it would require more animations.

Animations take time to create. Instead of making an animation for a charactor with a melee weapon and a blaster, they could make add more variety to the existing animations. Such as a few more "flurry" animations or whatnot. Perhaps they could even add different animations for the different sabre styles.

That would be a better use of their time, in my opinion.

Robb Stark
11-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Look we practically already have a combined melee/ranged attack already:

Ever used Force Storm, Force Wave, Destroy Droid, etc. with a lightsaber in your hand? Those are all ranged attack against *MULTIPLE* enemies that also enable you to defend against melee attacks and blaster fire. Heck you can attack an opponent at melee range with a saber in one round and then fry him with lightning in the next. The most unbalanced aspect of both games is being able to stand completely still and spam Force Waves destroying every enemy on screen long before running out of VP or FP. So a ranged/melee combo is not a balance issue. Really.

The question is whether a dual-wield ranged/melee combo makes sense as a way real people/Jedi could and would fight, and whether players would use it often enough to justify implementing it in the game. *I* would use it from time to time simply because the concept/look of it is cool to me. If not enough people would use it then it would be a waste to put in the game and get it to work.

(Which, incidentally, wouldn't really be that hard. Imagine four buttons in the attack Target Menu rather than three: Melee, Ranged, Force Powers, Grenades. If you don't have a melee or ranged weapon equipped then that option is blacked out. During the defense portion of each round you see the defense animation of either defending against a melee attack with your melee weapon, and/or deflecting a blaster bolt with your saber...that is absolutely no different than what we currently have with a Jedi who has selected a Force power and is waiting for his attack portion of the round. During the attack portion of each round you attack with *EITHER* your ranged weapon or your melee weapon, depending on which option you select in the Target Menu. Depending on the range of your target and the weapon you selected, you attack as if single-wielding that kind of weapon, but applying a dual-wielding penalty and whatever penalty there exists for mismatched wielding. If you dual-wield the same kind of weapon (melee or ranged) then attacks function as they do currently.)

And really, if doing the animations for dual wielding ranged and melee weapons together only takes away from five more Flurry, Critical Strike, and Power Attack animations each, I'm all for it. Next thing we'll get is the screen flashing purple, pink, and yellow with fireworks and the screen shaking when a critical hit is scored, followed by the screen splattering with blood that runs slowly down and an evil laugh. But I suspect for many people that alone would make KOTOR3 the best game ever. :rolleyes:

Cygnus Q'ol
11-30-2005, 02:32 PM
Alright, so not everyone agrees, oh well, that's the way of the universe.

I'm one who likes options. If they decide to place these types of options in the game, then I'll explore them.

If not, then I'll find other ways to eliminate my enemies.

I'll tell you one thing, IMO, the next game won't be the same old thing. I believe the next gen Kotor will have a few surprises for all of us. Yes, even those of you who think you have seen the future.
Another thing, when I come across a single blade saberist, he'd better have the force as his ally.

...and even that may not be enough.

Vladimir-Vlada
11-30-2005, 02:44 PM
But if the penalty is too great, would you even consider using it?
Now if they wanted to insert that. Would they do such a thing?

Even if the +3 to attack and +3 to defense come into play, the second the double-blader touches you, you're screwed.
I never got beaten by a double-bladed wielder. And if I never got beaten, Why would anyone else be? :confused: Maybe you just didn't improve your character as good as you thought. :p

Add to that the ability to wield a blaster and a saber for both ranged and melee. So unless there's some major penalties, here's another option to pound single saberists to the ground.
That doesn't mean that. You just have to think what abilities are you going to use.

But it's just an option you'll say...no, it isn't just an option. You'd have to remember that if you can do that, enemy NPCs can do it too. What if it's really overpowered and the AI is smart enough to use it efficiently? It'll be fun.
Now you are over exagerating.

A.I.'s are not that smart and no NPC would wield such a thing, because NPC's are mostly unoriginal minds that doesn't really think or aim correctly.

But enough about balance, has anyone thought of how weird it would look? How can a Jedi concentrate on aiming correctly and blocking at the same time?
HEY! You said that. Not us.

But does the Space Marine Commander block enemy fire while shooting back?
No, because he doesn't have the correct polarity of a electron field projecting shield, nor does he have a Xenon stick that is ionicly positive, while the projectiles are also positive; making them deflect because of the positive ions from both sides.

It simply is too unrealistic to even be considered.
Who says that Star Wars is real? :p

Animations take time to create. Instead of making an animation for a charactor with a melee weapon and a blaster, they could make add more variety to the existing animations.
People don't get money for the time they've spent making something, they get money for the things made.

Mono_Giganto
11-30-2005, 05:20 PM
Yeah, and if they spend that much time making animations for this, as well as animations for other things, and saber forms, and improve the engine, and fix bugs, and try to simultaneously make a good story..... The game won't make its deadline, and thus, they won't be getting too much money for what they made. An animation, let alone an entire set, is not something that can be created in a matter of minutes. "It's not a routine procedure, but an artform." To quote svösh. :) Especially human animations like these.

Bob Lion54
11-30-2005, 05:21 PM
People don't get money for the time they've spent making something, they get money for the things made.
Not really. If you take the time to make something well, you can charge more for it then if you do not.

Games are somewhat different in that most new games sale for about $50. However, in the long term my statement holds true. If the game is rushed, once people hear its not good, the sales will drop and the price will drop. If they take the time and make it well, they can keep selling it for $50 for a longer period of time, thus making a higher profit.

Ergo, your statement is false in most, though unfortunately not all, instances.

Vladimir-Vlada
11-30-2005, 06:55 PM
The game won't make its deadline, and thus, they won't be getting too much money for what they made. An animation, let alone an entire set, is not something that can be created in a matter of minutes.
If the game is rushed, once people hear its not good, the sales will drop and the price will drop.
What? For one animation a set of them and a delay??? That's ridicoulous.

Mono_Giganto
11-30-2005, 07:25 PM
A set isn't one animation. A set is many animations. And it's not ridiculous when you're arguing over a LucasArts game. They get rushed anyway. And from OE's (OE being the likely candidate for K3.) work on K2, it definitely seems that they're geared towards engine improvements and better models and animations - before the story/bug fixes. Which means that they would likely create new animations/models first, then get to the story last. They could barely get K2 out as a working game in time. To do the same again in addition to an entire set of animations... Well, it won't get the game done in time for a deadline. Animations take a long time. That's why Nihilus uses recycled animations. That's why most models in the game are built on a shared skeleton, so there is no need to animate everything on its own. You can't make natural-looking animations like you can make an item on KotOR Tool.

You will also notice in my post, that I never said the animations alone would cause a failure to meet a deadline. OE has enough trouble getting everything into the game on time as it is, and adding more, especially something as time consuming as animtations, is going to take up the time they could be fixing some of the bugs or improving the story.

Vladimir-Vlada
11-30-2005, 07:47 PM
Well maybe they can do the same thing with animation skeletons with KOTOR 3 as well. I don't mind seeing everyone have same animations for everything. The blaster-and-melee weapon wielding can be PC and Party only animation.

JediMaster12
11-30-2005, 07:52 PM
Maybe so but this was a suggestion after all

Mono_Giganto
11-30-2005, 08:01 PM
Well maybe they can do the same thing with animation skeletons with KOTOR 3 as well. I don't mind seeing everyone have same animations for everything. The blaster-and-melee weapon wielding can be PC and Party only animation.

Yeah, if it was done, it definitely would be. There's still the matter of making the animations though, a lot of time which could be better spent giving us a solid, relatively bugless story. :D

RedHawke
12-01-2005, 01:06 AM
There's still the matter of making the animations though, a lot of time which could be better spent giving us a solid, relatively bugless story. :D
Quoted for emphasis! ;)

The_Maker
12-01-2005, 02:16 AM
No.

It just doesn't make sense,
If you are a Jedi, why would you WANT a blaster to begin with?
And if you are (presumabley a skilled) Jedi most blaster shots the enemy throws your way are going to be deflected, and who says an NPC wouldn't use this feature? They use everything else you can. Think about it, my PC with a short saber in my left hand hand, and a super what-ever you want to call it mega Mandalorian blaster pistol in my right, I am against another Jedi/Sith with the same ability, I attack him first with my blaster and he deflects every single shot, he does the same and I deflect every shot, now we are at a stalemate. Stalemates in videogamecombat are BAD. Now if either of us switches to just one type of weapon, blaster or saber, we'll lose because our opponent will shoot us while we run up to him/her to fight with a saber, or we get stabbed in the gut because our blaster cannot get through his armor/saber deflects.
If we we resort to force powers who ever has a higher Wisdom setting will win hands down because his/her opponent will not be able to fight with a weapon without being gunned down or stabbed. So essentially its like a slanted version of Rock-Paper-Scissors, Force Powers Are better than the combo, The combo is better than a single type of weapon, and a single type of weapon gives you nothing but death.

Now if you threw grenades and/or mines into the mix that is a different story, whoever threw a freeze-grenade or something of the like would have the upper hand, which is mainly why I hate grenades because they don't make sense in an RPG game. But honestly, who uses grenades when your opponet is weilding a saber?! Bleh.

So in the end you force players to be either extremely powerful, have a ton of grenades, or only use the same spam-tactic through the whole game. Spamming a game with the same moves, same powers, same weapons over and over again gets real old real fast.

Sabretooth
12-01-2005, 04:38 AM
The idea sounds like something from your usual hollywood movies, where the brawny action hero jumps into a corridor horizontally, firing with two machineguns. Then, stylishly, he takes out a sword and a gun and hacks away at the guys around him, while accurately hitting those far away.

My vote: no.

Cygnus Q'ol
12-01-2005, 10:00 AM
Depending on the level of deflection rolls the jedi/sith carry and the level of 'precise shot' I have, not all my shots are deflected.
With the right damage and critical hit upgrades, sabarists many times fall before me.

Actually, sometimes I can kill jedi fairly easy with blasters.
Maybe that's the problem with this thread. Jedi and sith alike don't like blasters.
(barbaric weapon)

Force users and traditionalists don't usually favor deadly pistoliers.
(especially if they brandish one of their own 'civilized' weapons.)

Prime
12-01-2005, 10:36 AM
I don't mind if it is in there, but there should be huge penalties.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-01-2005, 01:56 PM
I don't mind if it is in there, but there should be huge penalties.
Now that's what I am talking about.

RobQel-Droma
12-01-2005, 02:02 PM
But if you are going to have stuff like "Attack Ranged", and then "Attack Melee" in the action queue, why not just switch weapons? It would come out the same, it would take a round for each attack. But the idea is kind of intriguing, if they did it right, it could be kind of nice. But I agree, massive penalties, maybe only being able to use with shortsabers if you haven't mastered it. I think it could work really good, although it might not be that great for an RPG than it would be for a FPS.

lukeiamyourdad
12-01-2005, 03:17 PM
The most unbalanced aspect of both games is being able to stand completely still and spam Force Waves destroying every enemy on screen long before running out of VP or FP. So a ranged/melee combo is not a balance issue. Really.

Not a balance issue how? You've just mentionned something that needs balancing and then claim that there's no balance issue?
There is, more then you seem to think. The theoretical counterweight to using force powers are force points. You risk running out of FP. However, when using a saber and a blaster, you don't run out of ammo.

Now if they wanted to insert that. Would they do such a thing?

If they want to balance things out, yes.


I never got beaten by a double-bladed wielder. And if I never got beaten, Why would anyone else be? :confused: Maybe you just didn't improve your character as good as you thought. :p

I'm just making up a potential situation. Of course, both KotOR games without hardcore mods are outrageously easy. I'm just saying that if you faced someone of equal level with roughly the same stats, using a single saber, in the actual context, against a double-bladed saber would lead to your loss.
That doesn't mean that. You just have to think what abilities are you going to use.


Now you are over exagerating.

A.I.'s are not that smart and no NPC would wield such a thing, because NPC's are mostly unoriginal minds that doesn't really think or aim correctly.

That's because the game is too easy. Doesn't have anything to do with them using both a blaster and a saber at the same time. Besides, what stops an NPC from doing that?

HEY! You said that. Not us.

Oh, you did. I might have confused people by saying "at the same time", but I'll explain it later.


No, because he doesn't have the correct polarity of a electron field projecting shield, nor does he have a Xenon stick that is ionicly positive, while the projectiles are also positive; making them deflect because of the positive ions from both sides.

Now this doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Who says that Star Wars is real? :p

Who says it must not be? There's realism in real life and realism and Star Wars. Shooting and using a saber at the same time doesn't fit either.

Frankly, someone said something about already being able to use both melee and ranged weapon by switching in the middle of a battle.
Now that makes sense.
What doesn't make sense is someone who would stand there and shoot while deflecting when they can deflect and then rush up to the enemy and do some slice and dice.
It makes even for a stupider scene, as someone mentionned earlier, where two saber and pistol wielding enemies would fight. They'd stand there and shoot and deflect. It would look absolutely horrendous.

Now that's what I am talking about.

This goes back to another one of my points. If there's too big a penalty, why use it?

Robb Stark
12-01-2005, 04:11 PM
Frankly, someone said something about already being able to use both melee and ranged weapon by switching in the middle of a battle. Now that makes sense.

The advantage of dual-wielding a melee and ranged together would be from the defensive point of view. You could defend against a melee attack (or a blaster shot if you are wielding a lightsaber) while launching a ranged attack of your own. YOU ALREADY DO THIS WITH FORCE POWERS AND A SABER!!!! My goodness. It's not about mechanics or balance. It doesn't unbalance anything *MORE* than it's already unbalanced, which was my point about spamming Force Waves, and it doesn't add a dimension of the game that doesn't already exist, albeit in a slightly different form (Force powers instead of blaster fire). The only issues as I see it is whether it's realistic to fight that way, and whether it would be used often enough to justify spending time on it to put it in the game.

What doesn't make sense is someone who would stand there and shoot while deflecting when they can deflect and then rush up to the enemy and do some slice and dice.

Really? Do you realize what you are implying: Why EVER use a ranged attack? Why let anyone in your party stand there and ABSORB (forget even deflecting) blaster fire when they can rush up to an enemy and slice and dice? :rolleyes:

It makes even for a stupider scene, as someone mentionned earlier, where two saber and pistol wielding enemies would fight. They'd stand there and shoot and deflect. It would look absolutely horrendous.

I'm not sure exactly how it would look, and neither do you. Will it look much dumber than two ranged opponents facing off with defense ratings of +40 never suffering damage and firing at each other for two hours and healing critical hit damage until one runs out of medpacs?

I personally find the strategy of two saber-ranged opponents facing each other intriguing. I think the decision about when to commit to a melee attack in this case would be an interesting one. It enables a stastically weaker melee opponent to try out more options to deal with a stronger one: for example it may force a strong melee opponent to use a saber that focuses on BBD rather than maximum damage. It also multiplies the number of build choices because you now can determine whether you want to max/min for melee, ranged, force powers, or some combo of them. More choices = better as long as they're reasonable (certainly the number of feat and Foce power choices in TSL indicates that world-class game developers believe this to be true). If a melee-ranged combo is too unreasonable as a way for real people and/or Jedi to fight, then forget it. If it's conceivable, then I'm for it.

This goes back to another one of my points. If there's too big a penalty, why use it?

You're the one talking about "too big a penalty." What does that mean? I'm sure that playtesters can figure out what the IDEAL penalty would be to make such a strategy useful with a good setup and bad with a poor setup, and balancing the penalty with the other combat options to make them reasonably equal if min/maxed properly. Playtesting is how every respectable RPG has determined what the penalties should be for various strategies. They don't randomly decide numbers, they try out various numbers to determine what they think is FAIR. Why is this one aspect the only one in any RPG system that would be randomly chosen to have "too big a penalty?"

Look, we get it. You don't like the idea. At this point just say "I think just think it's stupid" and be done with it.

RobQel-Droma
12-01-2005, 06:18 PM
It makes even for a stupider scene, as someone mentionned earlier, where two saber and pistol wielding enemies would fight. They'd stand there and shoot and deflect. It would look absolutely horrendous.

Liayd is right about that, you know, it would make a pretty stupid scene. That would be a definite problem if this happened. And as I said before, why not just attack with say a force Push, and then pull out a blaster, shoot a few times, and then run up and attack with your saber.

I'm not sure exactly how it would look, and neither do you. Will it look much dumber than two ranged opponents facing off with defense ratings of +40 never suffering damage and firing at each other for two hours and healing critical hit damage until one runs out of medpacs?

Sorry, but quite frankly, I have a pretty good idea of what it would look like :xp:. It would be worse than the scenario you just mentioned, which is a bit exaggerated by the way. And what would happen if a blaster shot just kept going back and forth from each person, each in turn blocking it and adding even more rogue blaster shots to the mix?

You're the one talking about "too big a penalty." What does that mean? I'm sure that playtesters can figure out what the IDEAL penalty would be to make such a strategy useful with a good setup and bad with a poor setup, and balancing the penalty with the other combat options to make them reasonably equal if min/maxed properly. Playtesting is how every respectable RPG has determined what the penalties should be for various strategies. They don't randomly decide numbers, they try out various numbers to determine what they think is FAIR.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you just said they should just make it "fair" and make it so it would have hardly any drawbacks at all. Come on, there is a fine line between "reasonable" (for the game) and "unrealistic," and what you said seems to be crossing it. For someone use what we are talking about would make them either the most terrible fighter alive, or, it would make them a dangerous killer, yet would still have several weak points.

When I think of ranged weapons along with melee like you are saying, I think of some guy fighting with a saber, warding off an enemies blow, then pulling out a blaster and gunning down an enemy running toward him; then, using his saber on the first guy. That would be really what I would like. But then again, you can almost already do this with the secondary weapon option, so why include it?

Now the kind of combo I would really want, more than having the blaster/saber combination, is still having only melee weapons at a time, but having your fists or feet. Being able to attack with a saber while simultaneously hitting the enemy and causing a small, yet regular amount of damage. That would be nice.

lukeiamyourdad
12-01-2005, 06:29 PM
The advantage of dual-wielding a melee and ranged together would be from the defensive point of view. You could defend against a melee attack (or a blaster shot if you are wielding a lightsaber) while launching a ranged attack of your own. YOU ALREADY DO THIS WITH FORCE POWERS AND A SABER!!!! My goodness. It's not about mechanics or balance. It doesn't unbalance anything *MORE* than it's already unbalanced, which was my point about spamming Force Waves, and it doesn't add a dimension of the game that doesn't already exist, albeit in a slightly different form (Force powers instead of blaster fire). The only issues as I see it is whether it's realistic to fight that way, and whether it would be used often enough to justify spending time on it to put it in the game.

If we rebalance force powers (including force wave) then yes, that tactic would unbalance things.
You missed the point. When using force powers, you use up force points. In theory, when you use up all of your force points, you have to close in and engage in melee combat.
That is not the case with a blaster, as you will never run out of ammo.

You're confusing the ranged skills with the spellcasting skills.

Really? Do you realize what you are implying: Why EVER use a ranged attack? Why let anyone in your party stand there and ABSORB (forget even deflecting) blaster fire when they can rush up to an enemy and slice and dice? :rolleyes:

Thus, why non Jedi do exist. HK-47 or Mandalore with a rifle can't use any of those tactics. As far as I know, they can't deflect blaster fire like a Jedi can.

This comes with the principe of the tanker and the shooter. Tankers come in a take hits while shooters deal damage from afar.

I'm not sure exactly how it would look, and neither do you. Will it look much dumber than two ranged opponents facing off with defense ratings of +40 never suffering damage and firing at each other for two hours and healing critical hit damage until one runs out of medpacs?

Yes, it would look dumber, since both have melee weapons in their hands. Two persons with rifles have no choice but to avoid melee. People who have the option and are able to deflect blaster bolts using said melee weapon would have it in their best interest to deflect then rush forward.

Personally, I think I know exactly how it will look.


I personally find the strategy of two saber-ranged opponents facing each other intriguing. I think the decision about when to commit to a melee attack in this case would be an interesting one. It enables a stastically weaker melee opponent to try out more options to deal with a stronger one: for example it may force a strong melee opponent to use a saber that focuses on BBD rather than maximum damage. It also multiplies the number of build choices because you now can determine whether you want to max/min for melee, ranged, force powers, or some combo of them. More choices = better as long as they're reasonable (certainly the number of feat and Foce power choices in TSL indicates that world-class game developers believe this to be true).

You have to realize that if you mix and match things, you're going to be significantly weaker then a specialist opponent.
Not that you will be only able to hold a single pistol.
You might not even be able to max out or even have good skill in either ranged or melee combat. You'll be not bad and not good, just average.
A game should certainly not allow you to try every single option available during the course of a single run through the game.

If a melee-ranged combo is too unreasonable as a way for real people and/or Jedi to fight, then forget it. If it's conceivable, then I'm for it.

Partly, it is unreasonable. Bayonnets are used to combine both ranged and melee but both are significantly hampered. However, this isn't simply the case of somebody holding a gun in one hand and a sword in another. If it was a simple vibroblade, it could look decent, but it isn't the case.
We're talking about a melee weapon that can counter ranged opponents. Unlike a regular vibroblade, you can actually deflect bolts and rush up against an opponent. If you had a regular vibroblade, it would truly serve as a defense against melee opponents who closed in all you and managed to avoid your fire.


You're the one talking about "too big a penalty." What does that mean? I'm sure that playtesters can figure out what the IDEAL penalty would be to make such a strategy useful with a good setup and bad with a poor setup, and balancing the penalty with the other combat options to make them reasonably equal if min/maxed properly. Playtesting is how every respectable RPG has determined what the penalties should be for various strategies. They don't randomly decide numbers, they try out various numbers to determine what they think is FAIR. Why is this one aspect the only one in any RPG system that would be randomly chosen to have "too big a penalty?"

Because it is overpowered, at it's base, overpowered. The ability to both deflect ranged attacks and counter them by standing still without having any penalty is unbalanced. The "correct" penalty would be a massive disadvantage to both ranged and melee abilities, as both are combined into one.
If you're not good in either, but not bad either, you're weaker then those who are specialists. Usually, specialist characters, either melee or ranged, have special abilities to counter-weight their respective disadvantages.
Melee characters will usually have more VP and ranged characters better attack rates.

A melee character who manages to close in on your character would crush you. Him, being a melee specialist, has the advantage over you being a jack-of-all-trades. Even if you have the ability to defend yourself, it's only for one of those last resort situation.
As for ranged, even though you have good blaster bolt deflection, many bolt will get through and your opponent will likely have shields and a high defense rating helping him avoid the shots. Add to that the fact that ranged characters usually have a very high attack, it will help them get through your jack-of-all-traed defense.


Look, we get it. You don't like the idea. At this point just say "I think just think it's stupid" and be done with it.

So you said that if i's unconceivable, then we should forget it, but you don't want to hear if it's unconceivable or not?
I bring up the opposite point of view and how or why it would be unconceivable. Of course, since it's not your point of view, it's all a bunch of crap.
Your attempt at looking unbiased has failed.

Mono_Giganto
12-01-2005, 06:34 PM
YOU ALREADY DO THIS WITH FORCE POWERS AND A SABER!!!! My goodness. It's not about mechanics or balance. It doesn't unbalance anything *MORE* than it's already unbalanced.

Did you miss the part of LIAYD's post where he talks about Limited FP vs. Unlimited Ammunition? :rolleyes:

If force wave could be done infinitely, and did the same amount of damage as a suped up pistol, then it wouldn't balance anything any more.

Edit: I see you beat me to it.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-01-2005, 06:37 PM
Because it is overpowered, at it's base, overpowered. The ability to both deflect ranged attacks and counter them by standing still without having any penalty is unbalanced.
You are not a GOD of martial arts to deflect any blow. Unless you use cheats. :rolleyes:

Mono_Giganto
12-01-2005, 06:45 PM
Well,that's where you are mistaken. Due to the ease of the KotOR games, it is quite possible to become a "God," as you call it, at blaster deflection. However, this usually comes at the penalty of a low attack strength. No such attack penalty exists here, so, to limit your "Godliness," Deflection would take a hit. It's how RPGs work. Great bonuses are coupled with great penalties.

Only thing that would be acceptable to me is an additional attack feat for ranged weapons, which incorporates a close range weapon-bash melee attack. Does less damage than a normal shot, but increases defense temporarily, or something. Even that's crossing the line though, that's sort of in the FPS realm.

lukeiamyourdad
12-01-2005, 06:54 PM
That wouldn't be too bad an idea actually. Even if it's FPS like. Though it also kills the purpose of being able to switch to melee weapons.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-01-2005, 07:01 PM
You could become a 'god' according to the strength of the character. But in blaster deflection... I don't think so.

Even that's crossing the line though, that's sort of in the FPS realm.
Bioware, Obsidian and Lucas Arts already stepped into almost every realm in existence with single products. They won't stop: Star Wars, as a mark, was meant to break rules in every genre it presents itself. It's what makes it great. Deal with it.

Mono_Giganto
12-01-2005, 07:57 PM
That wouldn't be too bad an idea actually. Even if it's FPS like. Though it also kills the purpose of being able to switch to melee weapons.

Well, I didn't plan on it being nearly as powerful as, say, your suped up lightsaber or vibrosword. But it gives the strict gunners a little move for close range if they get swarmed. :D It'd be ideal if you shot the crap out of something as it approached your gunner, then used a melee hit to finish it off, giving you a small defense boost for that round too. Then there's no hassle of switching to a melee weapon just for one hit.

Sadly, since feats have a habit of being hardcoded, it's not a mod possibility, OE would actually have to do it. :(

And as for blaster deflection, with the right upgrades, you can add close to 20+ to your deflection roll. Do that in a double saber, and it's 20+ for both blades. Then there's a +10 (Or is it +6?) if you invest in all levels of Jedi Defense. Then there are the saber forms which add +5 or so. so, lets just say 30+ Deflection now. All you have to do is roll higher than them to deflect. Pretty sure that boost will give you the higher roll, when coupled with your natural roll. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised to see most shots redirected back to their targets. You can indeed become a deflection god.

JediMaster12
12-06-2005, 02:44 PM
It's all technical to me but I thought the ability to hold a blaster and a saber or vibroblade would be cool. If it is going to take work on the part of the devs, then I would rather they concentrate on the storyline. :darthx

Vladimir-Vlada
12-07-2005, 08:36 AM
If it is going to take work on the part of the devs, then I would rather they concentrate on the storyline.
Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.

Cygnus Q'ol
12-07-2005, 11:28 AM
Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.

Well then, the only problem is: Will they type the 20 numbers?

Vladimir-Vlada
12-07-2005, 11:52 AM
Well then, the only problem is: Will they type the 20 numbers?
Yes that's what I thought. Because what is sugested here is more of a harmless bug (from their point of view), rather than something that could bring down the entire D20 system.

Cygnus Q'ol
12-07-2005, 12:21 PM
Even though I have my reasons for wanting this particular option, I have a bad feeling about this. Not too many people seemed to find it as interesting or useful. So perhaps, the devs will think of it as a waste of time, or maybe not at all. I just feel this game is going to need a lot to bringback the exitement of the '03 game of the year.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-07-2005, 01:29 PM
Not too many people seemed to find it as interesting or useful.
I think that that is mainly because those many people are hardcore RPG players. And they think that by seeing something that wasn't inserted earlier, be it great or not, is going into FPS. But what they don't want to admit is that Obisidan and Bioware broke several major rules in the RPG basis to make KOTOR.

Cygnus Q'ol
12-07-2005, 01:42 PM
I think that that is mainly because those many people are hardcore RPG players. And they think that by seeing something that wasn't inserted earlier, be it great or not, is going into FPS. But what they don't want to admit is that Obisidan and Bioware broke several major rules in the RPG basis to make KOTOR.

Thank the stars. I love the concept of a hybrid RPG with the level of detail that Kotor brings. However, there will have to be another 'level up' as far as the Devs are concerned. A carbon copy of K2 simply won't cut it.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-07-2005, 01:51 PM
A carbon copy of K2 simply won't cut it.
That's what I think as well. Too many rules have been broken, to be repaired now.

Mono_Giganto
12-07-2005, 04:51 PM
Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.

Heh, okay, they type in the 20 numbers and do nothing else. Now, you load the game, equip a gun and a sword, and perform an attack. Your character suddenly jumps to an upright snow angel pose, shots fire from the gun, but the player doesn't move at all.

And then there's the coding involved to make the game function properly with 2 different types of weapons equipped at the same time, as it would be a new feature.


Yeah, 'typing in 20 numbers' is a huge understatement.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-07-2005, 06:10 PM
Yeah, 'typing in 20 numbers' is a huge understatement.
Look I know that I overexagerated and I am sorry for that. But the feature is not that bad. Besides what would it change if it's inserted; First you say that it will make people abbandon the single sabre, then you say that it will cause over empowering of single sabre wielders.. I really don't understand why can this bring so much disbalance, it will only be for looks. It would make a penalty like with two melee weapons, only bigger. That's all.

RedHawke
12-08-2005, 01:30 AM
^^^^
Sorry Vlad but Mono is correct... The penalties would outweigh the usefulness of the so-called form, and in these instances, for example in PnP sessions, as a GM you could allow the player to use this form, but swiftly the player would find out that it sucks... hopefully before his characters hit-points quickly reached 0.

So why include any development time for such a thing in the game. ;)

Also...

I think that that is mainly because those many people are hardcore RPG players. And they think that by seeing something that wasn't inserted earlier, be it great or not, is going into FPS. But what they don't want to admit is that Obisidan and Bioware broke several major rules in the RPG basis to make KOTOR.
Still a sore spot there I see...

Bioware and OE broke no rules making KOTOR and TSL, they are 'Pure' RPG's... just because the ADD Generation, "button-mashing", adrenaline junkie, console kiddies cannot seem to grasp the concept of what a 'Pure' RPG is, is unimportant! :xp:

Vladimir-Vlada
12-08-2005, 09:39 AM
So why include any development time for such a thing in the game. ;)
Gamers don't need to use it. And even thoug it will be amost useless, some people would want to still use it even though it would make the game seem like it is way too hard, they will just accept the fact that it is very stupid, but still hold their teeth and use it because they like it.

I know I will.

Bioware and OE broke no rules making KOTOR and TSL, they are 'Pure' RPG's...
Oh, you didn't notice that my friend.

Of course, they didn't break the rules from the point of view of the game play. BUT they broke, at least, 5 rulse concerning the story.

Let me explain:

In the law of the RPG world there is always the law that states: Never continue the story of the previous one, if it is called 'Neverwinter Nights 2'. And I agree with them since any RPG with any knid of story, any kind of name and any kind is destined to be great; and it becomes great.
But in KOTOR... They broke those rules. Let me show you which:

1. Of course, any normal RPG would throw away the story of the previous one like it didn't exist; And I thought that they were going to do that with TSL. But instead, they continued the story from the first one, making a plot for a triology, which is forbbiden to any RPG out there. But they still did it.

2. In the RPGs as well, you can't have characters from the previous game in the squel so they are off the hook. But Bioware and Obsidian inserted, not just one character from the prequel, but 6 characters: Carth, Bastila, Canderous, T3, HK and Vrook. That's breaking the rules if you ask me.

3. In squels, you cannot mention the main character or his/her name in the squel EVER. But in TSL, Revan was like a central character.

I have to stop now, this post is stepping into another topic.

Mono_Giganto
12-08-2005, 02:36 PM
Heh. First off, that's only 3, maybe 4, if you include the first bold part.

And, sure, they can mention the prequel character's name, especially in a case like this, where the first game's main character gets a 'standard' name after a certain point in the game. It's like if they didn't give you the option to name the character at all. The only reason they tend to stay away from naming the past characters in games like this is because the name was customizable. And the KotOR series is definitely not the only RPG series to do it, remember the old Dragon Warrior/Quest games? (New one looks pretty good.) Specifically I, II, and III. Well known, traditional RPGs. The main character of the third game, Loto/Erdrick, is mentioned throughout the other two. (Not sure about the new one.) He also has a full set of armor, complete with helmet and shield, a sword, and a seal listed as "Loto's ___" ingame. Breath of Fire is another example, with the main character, Ryu, being mentioned between games.

And by the way, I never said anything about overpowering single sabers. I gave you the technical arguement about why inserting the option would be a waste of time. This time around, I want my story first. If they make crappy models, we can fix that, at least.

IndianaSolo
12-08-2005, 11:40 PM
Let me explain:

In the law of the RPG world there is always the law that states: Never continue the story of the previous one, if it is called 'Neverwinter Nights 2'. And I agree with them since any RPG with any knid of story, any kind of name and any kind is destined to be great; and it becomes great.
But in KOTOR... They broke those rules. Let me show you which:

1. Of course, any normal RPG would throw away the story of the previous one like it didn't exist; And I thought that they were going to do that with TSL. But instead, they continued the story from the first one, making a plot for a triology, which is forbbiden to any RPG out there. But they still did it.

2. In the RPGs as well, you can't have characters from the previous game in the squel so they are off the hook. But Bioware and Obsidian inserted, not just one character from the prequel, but 6 characters: Carth, Bastila, Canderous, T3, HK and Vrook. That's breaking the rules if you ask me.

3. In squels, you cannot mention the main character or his/her name in the squel EVER. But in TSL, Revan was like a central character.

I have to stop now, this post is stepping into another topic.

Is this actually true? If it is, then these "rules" for RPG are pretty damn stupid. By definition, a game can't be a "sequel" when it has pretty much zero to do with whatever came before it.

Where did you get these rules from?

RedHawke
12-09-2005, 03:21 AM
Is this actually true? If it is, then these "rules" for RPG are pretty damn stupid. By definition, a game can't be a "sequel" when it has pretty much zero to do with whatever came before it.

Where did you get these rules from?
Vlad made them up out of thin air IndianaSolo so don't worry. ;)

@ Vlad your so-called RPG story rules make no sense, and it would benefit you to venture back to the older venerable RPG's and giving them a shot before stating things steadfastly like you have. ;)

Also as a game developer you will not put any rescources into a game option that very few players would even use, let alone would grant no benefits to use other than "looks"... in an RPG that's just silly! :rolleyes:

The Melee/Ranged Mix options cannot be viable, it is one of the oldest attempted styles/exploits in RPG's and it fails every time! Your best bet would be a GunSword style, but still you could only use it as either Ranged or Melee in a single round, never can you do both.

Sorry, Vlad I just don't buy this whole discussion! :xp:

Vladimir-Vlada
12-09-2005, 08:13 AM
And, sure, they can mention the prequel character's name, especially in a case like this, where the first game's main character gets a 'standard' name after a certain point in the game. It's like if they didn't give you the option to name the character at all. The only reason they tend to stay away from naming the past characters in games like this is because the name was customizable. And the KotOR series is definitely not the only RPG series to do it, remember the old Dragon Warrior/Quest games? (New one looks pretty good.) Specifically I, II, and III. Well known, traditional RPGs. The main character of the third game, Loto/Erdrick, is mentioned throughout the other two. (Not sure about the new one.) He also has a full set of armor, complete with helmet and shield, a sword, and a seal listed as "Loto's ___" ingame. Breath of Fire is another example, with the main character, Ryu, being mentioned between games.
Oh. :indif: Sorry, then. :doh:

Also as a game developer you will not put any rescources into a game option that very few players would even use, let alone would grant no benefits to use other than "looks"... in an RPG that's just silly! :rolleyes:
Why do you say that? People do that often you know.

Take Diablo 2 for example. The thing is the most played RPG in the entire country here; The thing is older than my brother and people still play it (I don't play it because it gets boring to me after five minutes so I turn always to Jedi Academy to push my adrenaline and cheerfulness back). For the Horadric Cube they insert tons of completely useless combinations which no one uses. But yet, Blizzard still makes patches. So it's not as bad as it looks.

The Melee/Ranged Mix options cannot be viable, it is one of the oldest attempted styles/exploits in RPG's and it fails every time! Your best bet would be a GunSword style, but still you could only use it as either Ranged or Melee in a single round, never can you do both.
You can use penalties to solve that problem. You get 1/99999999999999999 chanses of hitting the opponent if you use both.

Sorry, Vlad I just don't buy this whole discussion! :xp:
It's not that bad. (I think)

Cygnus Q'ol
12-09-2005, 11:20 AM
Vlad made them up out of thin air IndianaSolo so don't worry. ;)

@ Vlad your so-called RPG story rules make no sense, and it would benefit you to venture back to the older venerable RPG's and giving them a shot before stating things steadfastly like you have. ;)

Also as a game developer you will not put any rescources into a game option that very few players would even use, let alone would grant no benefits to use other than "looks"... in an RPG that's just silly! :rolleyes:

The Melee/Ranged Mix options cannot be viable, it is one of the oldest attempted styles/exploits in RPG's and it fails every time! Your best bet would be a GunSword style, but still you could only use it as either Ranged or Melee in a single round, never can you do both.

Sorry, Vlad I just don't buy this whole discussion! :xp:

Well, I suppose that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
Really, though, it's up to the developers and what they've decided to do with the next game.

I really don't see the problem with holding a short saber and deflecting blaster shots, then firing back down the corridor at my enemies. Perhaps, I'm a jedi in training and I can't let go of my blasters just yet. If that costs me points, then so be it. If that seems unnatural to those pure sabarist, then refrain from using this option.

Perhaps this could only work at a certain distance or something. It's just an option for the player. If you don't want the penalties, then, by all means, don't use this option. But, why limit me on my choices?

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, everyone has their own opinions.
It doesn't matter what we say anyway. When/if the game is made, we'll all play it the way they make it. I'm sure it's gonna be fun. I can't wait.

IndianaSolo
12-09-2005, 05:53 PM
Vlad made them up out of thin air IndianaSolo so don't worry. ;)

I was going to say, if that was the case then most great cRPGs that I can recall all broke his so-called rules, since both Baldurs Gate 2 and Fallout 2 had sequels that had a lot to do with the previous game's stories/universe/characters. Even IWD 2 made mention of the events in IWD.

lukeiamyourdad
12-09-2005, 06:22 PM
For the Horadric Cube they insert tons of completely useless combinations which no one uses. But yet, Blizzard still makes patches. So it's not as bad as it looks.

Not the same thing. The Horadric cube recipe was a cool concept at first. It allowed you to convert some useless equipment to more useful ones. However, notice the error they made. Most of these useless combinations have a better and less troublemaking alternative.
If holding a saber and blaster has a less troublemaking alternative, guess what will happen.

But, why limit me on my choices?

Because giving you more choices will mean spend more money for a very small number of people.

Oh, and I want to have sex with the Handmaiden on the Ebon Hawk. A pure explicit sex scene. Then maybe an orgy with all the other attractive females.
Hey, it's my choice and it's just an option!

Mono_Giganto
12-09-2005, 06:38 PM
Interesting example....

Guess it makes the point though.

Renegade Angel
12-09-2005, 10:34 PM
A saber AND a blaster just seems... un-Star Wars like....

Vladimir-Vlada
12-10-2005, 08:04 AM
Oh, and I want to have sex with the Handmaiden on the Ebon Hawk. A pure explicit sex scene. Then maybe an orgy with all the other attractive females.
Hey, it's my choice and it's just an option!
That is complete over-exagerating. And guess what? Porn in game=S**t in game. Because Porn=S**t.

RedHawke
12-10-2005, 08:22 AM
^^^^
Here goes Vlad calling LIAYD for over-exaggerating then going off on an over-exaggerating tangent of his own about Porn!

Pure comedy! :lol:

Edit: Thanks Vlad, I needed some humor right now! ;)

lukeiamyourdad
12-10-2005, 08:39 AM
That is complete over-exagerating. And guess what? Porn in game=S**t in game. Because Porn=S**t.


I could go and say dual wielding a saber and a blaster=**** in games, because dual wielding a saber and a blaster = ****.

Same logic. Besides, it's only an option. You don't have to choose it.

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 08:41 AM
Okay guys, we don't need a flame fest started here. Keep on topic.

lukeiamyourdad
12-10-2005, 08:45 AM
Uh, we are on topic and there has been no flaming as of yet.

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 08:47 AM
Never mind, continue. :)

Mono_Giganto
12-10-2005, 09:53 AM
You guys are great. This is so funny now. :D

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 10:40 AM
And the funny just keeps on going....

JediMaster12
12-10-2005, 10:52 AM
In the law of the RPG world there is always the law that states: Never continue the story of the previous one, if it is called 'Neverwinter Nights 2'. And I agree with them since any RPG with any knid of story, any kind of name and any kind is destined to be great; and it becomes great.
But in KOTOR... They broke those rules. Let me show you which:

1. Of course, any normal RPG would throw away the story of the previous one like it didn't exist; And I thought that they were going to do that with TSL. But instead, they continued the story from the first one, making a plot for a triology, which is forbbiden to any RPG out there. But they still did it.

2. In the RPGs as well, you can't have characters from the previous game in the squel so they are off the hook. But Bioware and Obsidian inserted, not just one character from the prequel, but 6 characters: Carth, Bastila, Canderous, T3, HK and Vrook. That's breaking the rules if you ask me.

3. In squels, you cannot mention the main character or his/her name in the squel EVER. But in TSL, Revan was like a central character.

I have to stop now, this post is stepping into another topic.

EXCUSE ME. Then what is the whole point of a sequel?
Lucas is know for his trilogies ie Star Wars and Indiana Jones. By the way he wrote both, shelved the Jones story and did Star Wars, his big thing. HE gave the story to friend Steven Spielberg to direct, his big thing.
I was under the impression that a true RPG game is the type of combat system it is. What you have listed here is nothing but nonsense. If the having the blaster in one hand and the saber in the other is going to create problems, then just leave it with only one type of weapon.

"Never tell me the odds."

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 11:03 AM
^^^

You guys are great. This is so funny now. :D


No Mono, NOW it's funny.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-10-2005, 11:04 AM
I could go and say dual wielding a saber and a blaster=**** in games, because dual wielding a saber and a blaster = ****.
I could go as well and say having female party members that fall at your feet at the first sight of you (e.x. Handmaiden, Visas) in a game=S**t, because having females fall at your feet at the first sight of you=S**t

Same logic.
Nudity=logic (untrue)

Besides, it's only an option.
Nudity is't an option.

You don't have to choose it.
I didn't.

RC-1162
12-10-2005, 11:28 AM
LIAYD, int it clearly mentioned in the rules NOT to discuss porn?
and i say YES since a writer mentioned it in a book called Jedi Trial. in it, a rodian fighting on the Jedi side takes down a whole bunch of droids with a vibroblade in one hand and a blaster in the other. im not lying.
and suppose you are a Jedi who happens to have a blaster and a whole contingent of enemy troops are hounding you. would you want to jump in the middle and get hacked to pieces by melee blades or blasted to crisp by cannons? obviously no. if you have a lightsaber in your off hand, you can just deflect all incoming bolts and pick them off one by one with the blaster.

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 11:28 AM
Damn, this is better than Saturday Night Live!

Vladimir-Vlada
12-10-2005, 02:04 PM
Lucas is know for his trilogies ie Star Wars and Indiana Jones. By the way he wrote both, shelved the Jones story and did Star Wars, his big thing. HE gave the story to friend Steven Spielberg to direct, his big thing.
I was under the impression that a true RPG game is the type of combat system it is. What you have listed here is nothing but nonsense. If the having the blaster in one hand and the saber in the other is going to create problems, then just leave it with only one type of weapon.
The reason why I am not going to continue this is because this thread isn't about the story or about how RPGs work. I just wanted to show you that if KOTOR continued with Revan or Ry'ghol it won't be bad.

I would have said this earlier... But I thought that it would be spam, since this thread is not about it.

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 02:11 PM
wow, this thread went from onbe weird idea to a mindless debate abput porno and movies.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-10-2005, 02:20 PM
wow, this thread went from onbe weird idea to a mindless debate abput porno and movies.
I'll stop now. I promise.

On-topic:The thing about those two things being wielded isn't that bad, you know.

Renegade Angel
12-10-2005, 03:35 PM
@ Vlad: No, I wasn't angry or anything, it's just funny how off-topic the thread got so fast.

On Topic- Like I said, a blaster AND a saber/ A blaster alone seems un-star wars, but both would just ruin it all.

Mono_Giganto
12-10-2005, 04:59 PM
Heh, I don't understand your logic on how blasters are un-Star-Wars, but I agree on the saber+blaster point.

Jae Onasi
12-10-2005, 06:28 PM
Just an opinion here, FWIW.
OK, here's my premise--the SW world still follows most laws of physics. Granted, we can Force Jump 20 meters, Force Lightening people without electrocuting ourselves, Force-guide a thrown lightsaber to the target(s), and other things that completely ignore physics.
However, the fighting still needs to have some realism to it in order for it to be somewhat believable, so I'm going to accept things like Force powers, but have a little harder time accepting less realistic uses of the more 'realistic' type weapons.
Now some of this is based on some personal experience with foils and epees and archery. I haven't actually handled a gun (except waterguns) so I'm going to fall back to the archery experience.
So, the choices for weapon-bearing are, for the purposes of this thread, dual melee/saber, dual ranged, and ranged/saber.
I've fought single and dual foil/epee, and it's a challenge to fight well with one, much less two (it'd probably be easier if I pursued it a lot more often). However, you can use 2 melee weapons with relative ease--it's not hard to keep 2 arms moving at all times, and since you're so close to your opponent, it's not hard to get in a hit with at least one of those swords, unless you're fighting against a fencing master (which I'm not).
Shooting archery requires 2 hands so it's not exactly applicable, but you do have to keep fairly still in order to have the accuracy to hit your target. If you move around, your arrow moves around and misses the target. I'm going to extrapolate to ranged weapons, and say that you also have to hold a gun relatively still in order to hit your target in the right place. Snipers don't run around waving their guns, they stay very still. Real combat is more fluid and automatic weapons take away some of the requirement to remain still in order to hit, but you still have to aim the thing in the right direction, and the farther away you are the more difficult it is to hit if you're moving around. You can shoot 2 ranged weapons at the same time if you're really good, but in that case you're focusing the 2 guns at the same target, and shooting 2 guns does not require a lot of movement, and in fact, the less, the better.
Now here's your experiment for the day. You need a broom stick (or some other long straight object) and a water gun or laser pointer (don't shine this in anyone's eyes!). It's better do do this where you have a lot of room, preferably outside where you can't break anything (trust me, it's really easy to break a lamp or knock over pictures if you swing around a sword inside). Stand up, and with your main hand, sight down your water gun to aim at the very center of a far target. Now, simulating blaster bolt deflection, with your other hand wildly wave around the broomstick in a variety of directions.
Question 1--could you maintain a constant sight on your target while you were moving around, or did your arm movements from your 'sword' throw you off a lot? It's really hard to move one arm around in sudden jerky movements like you'd use to deflect blaster fire and yet keep the rest of your body still.
Question 2--when your 'sword' suddenly moved into your side vision when it was waving around, did you suddenly glance at it, even momentarily? That meant you took your eye off your target, and now you have to re-aim to hit your ranged target properly.
Question 3--now have someone toss some tennis balls or wads of paper or whatever for you to deflect. Could you concentrate on deflecting the balls and yet still keep your eye on the ranged target? It's impossible to focus on the deflection and the ranged target at the same time. Even in the game, it looks like you're deflecting bolts only as you close on a target--it doesn't look like you're deflecting bolts while you're actually close enough to be in combat with an individual.
Yep, I know we're playing Jedi who are unnaturally super-talented, but ranged/saber fighting is really impractical and would jar my sense of 'reality', even for the SW universe. Not to mention that this would require such penalties for use that I agree it would not be as useful as other systems.
I suppose if the devs had everything else covered, they could add this in, but it'd rank in my book somewhere around the level of beast trick--in the game, but not terribly useful. I don't want to just deflect stuff, I want to get in there and stop the shooting altogether. The best way to not get shot is to get rid of your enemies as quickly as possible. :)
My 2c on this.

PoiuyWired
12-10-2005, 06:53 PM
I think, using a blaster as a offhand weapon is not too weird indeed. Basically you are fighting with a one hand weapon(mainly) with a few shots thrown in.

On the other hand, using a melee weapon offhand is not too bad either. You don't have to actually attack with it, it just gives you a "melee weapon" so enemy don't claim bonus for you being unarmed melee wise. Simple parrying with a melee weapon goes a long way.

OoMandaloreoO
12-11-2005, 03:28 AM
tht would actually be awesome

RedHawke
12-11-2005, 06:59 AM
Jae Onasi FTW! ;)

Excellent post, well done! :D

Mono_Giganto
12-11-2005, 09:06 AM
Agreed.

lukeiamyourdad
12-11-2005, 11:22 AM
I could go as well and say having female party members that fall at your feet at the first sight of you (e.x. Handmaiden, Visas) in a game=S**t, because having females fall at your feet at the first sight of you=S**t

Thank you for proving me right.
Your reasoning is illogical.


Nudity=logic (untrue)

This doesn't have anything to do with anything. I was just demonstrating how your "logical reasoning" is absolutely flawed.


Nudity is't an option.

But it could be just an option. You don't have to choose it. Thus the argument that everything is just an option doesn't apply to you.
In the same way, you cannot tell anyone who don't like the blaster/saber combo not to use it because it's just an option.



LIAYD, int it clearly mentioned in the rules NOT to discuss porn?

If it's your only argument...

Yes, we can't discuss porn, but that applies to discussion of where you can get porn, talk about porn stars in a movie or describing the latest Jenna Jameson movie.
I was merely making a parallel.

and i say YES since a writer mentioned it in a book called Jedi Trial. in it, a rodian fighting on the Jedi side takes down a whole bunch of droids with a vibroblade in one hand and a blaster in the other. im not lying.

And that means lightsaber blaster bolt deflection + blaster how?


and suppose you are a Jedi who happens to have a blaster and a whole contingent of enemy troops are hounding you. would you want to jump in the middle and get hacked to pieces by melee blades or blasted to crisp by cannons? obviously no. if you have a lightsaber in your off hand, you can just deflect all incoming bolts and pick them off one by one with the blaster.

First off, if that was the case, considering they had melee weapons to hack me to pieces, they would split up into two groups, one keeping me occupied by shooting at me and the other rushing up to get me in close range. This litterally keeps me from using my blaster.

Or, the other plausible option would be to use one saber, stand back and deflect all the shots on the charging enemies. Then my blaster is useless.


Jae Onasi is awesome :) I'd like to add that you can't expect to hit much holding a simple handgun in one hand unless you're pretty close.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-11-2005, 11:22 AM
Is there anything that we can agree about, for once? (RedHawke, Mono_Giganto, lukeiamyourdad)

Vladimir-Vlada
12-11-2005, 11:31 AM
Thank you for proving me right.
Your reasoning is illogical.
This doesn't have anything to do with anything. I was just demonstrating how your "logical reasoning" is absolutely flawed.
*Sits back and doesn't consider lukeiamyourdad seriously. And starts wondering if lukeiamyourdad has any moments when he doesn't make a fuss bigger than Vladimir does*

And that means lightsaber blaster bolt deflection + blaster how?
Penalties are your friend.

lukeiamyourdad
12-11-2005, 11:36 AM
Penalties are your friend.

No, his argument is that someone already used a vibroblade and a blaster at the same time in the Star Wars universe. However, as far as I know, vibroblades are not lightsabers.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-11-2005, 11:48 AM
No, his argument is that someone already used a vibroblade and a blaster at the same time in the Star Wars universe. However, as far as I know, vibroblades are not lightsabers.
Penalties still remain. You don't have much chance when you use a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time. But still, some people (me for instance [since I am stupid. Yes I wrote it so that you or anyone else won't write it]) will hold their teeth thogether and still use it.

Darth Viggo
12-11-2005, 12:43 PM
One question to everyone....who the hay likes using guns in these games? You're a freakin Jedi, guns are inferior to you....

Jae Onasi
12-11-2005, 01:07 PM
See Jae Onasi :blush2:
Thanks for the compliments! :noel:

Mono_Giganto
12-11-2005, 02:15 PM
One question to everyone....who the hay likes using guns in these games? You're a freakin Jedi, guns are inferior to you....

:eyeraise:

...

:drop2:


RedHawke, please restrain me...

lukeiamyourdad
12-11-2005, 05:04 PM
Penalties still remain. You don't have much chance when you use a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time. But still, some people (me for instance [since I am stupid. Yes I wrote it so that you or anyone else won't write it]) will hold their teeth thogether and still use it.


What the hell does that have to do with his argument?

He's not talking about penalties.

Keep it on subject please. We already discussed penalties and such.

RedHawke
12-12-2005, 01:33 AM
Penalties are your friend.
:rofl: Bwahahahahahaha!!! Stop it Vlad you are killing me! :lol:

Bonuses are your freind Vlad, not penalties! ROFL!!! :lol:

RedHawke, please restrain me...
Ok! *Restrains Mono...* :D

JediMaster12
12-12-2005, 12:34 PM
One question to everyone....who the hay likes using guns in these games? You're a freakin Jedi, guns are inferior to you....

Not if you don't have a lightsaber like in TSL. You could use a vibro blade but what fun is that?

"So uncivilized." Obi-Wan Kenobi

RC-1162
12-12-2005, 01:46 PM
And that means lightsaber blaster bolt deflection + blaster how?

i was just proving my point that you can fight with a melee weapon in one hand and a blaster in the other. Unless i am greatly mistaken, i am sure that lightsabers are classifed indirectly into the melee group.

and vlad, would you please stop the 'penalties' crap?

lukeiamyourdad
12-12-2005, 04:16 PM
i was just proving my point that you can fight with a melee weapon in one hand and a blaster in the other. Unless i am greatly mistaken, i am sure that lightsabers are classifed indirectly into the melee group.

Be careful here. You're forgetting the main reason why people actually want this: deflecting blaster bolts while shooting with a blaster.

Very different from just holding a sword in one hand in case of emergency.

Jae Onasi
12-13-2005, 01:11 AM
I could see holding a melee weapon as a backup, in which case you'd be fighting with only 1 system at a time, not both melee and ranged at the same time. My long post applied specifically to using a ranged weapon in one hand while at the same time deflecting blaster fire with a lightsaber in the other hand. Now, I could imagine throwing a lightsaber, and squeezing off a few rounds while you waited for the saber to return, but that's still using one system at a time, not both at the exact same time.
And on a tangent, I could suddenly imagine a Jolee story involving a young and foolish apprentice who throws a lightsaber, shoots a couple of rounds with a blaster, and doesn't quite get out of the way of the returning LS....
"Here we were on Coruscant, and I get saddled with training this green apprentice some lightsaber skills. He grew up on T'lon where they all cut their teeth on blasters, and he thinks his souped-up Baragwin disruptor pistol is the greatest thing since sliced tookie worms. Of course, he thinks he knows everything about his new lightsaber, too, but does he listen to me telling him to always watch for the returning saber? Well, we end up over in the Eloni cantina--great food, better Juma juice, they need a new Bith accordian player--and we walk in on just the biggest cantina fight I've seen in a decade. Blaster bolts flying, people getting tossed over tables, good Juma getting wasted--good challenge for an apprentice Jedi to deal with. Well, about 4, maybe 5 Rodians see us and decide we're going to ruin their fun and they start shooting. Junior Jedi throws his saber--beautiful distance, nice arc, got about 3 of those Rodians, not bad for an apprentice. But then the blaster-brain thinks he's got enough time to shoot the other 2 with that crazy disruptor. He gets a few rounds off, and forgets about the saber for a moment. Suddenly, it's flying around crazy, and I had to duck and roll to get out of the way. He doesn't see it return til it's in his face. He ducks, but not quite fast enough, and manages to cut off the tip of his nose. That crotchety Vrook chewed me out for letting that happen. Actually, I think it improved that apprentice's appearance. What were we talking about again?"
;)

RedHawke
12-13-2005, 01:40 AM
^^^^
Very good story there Jae! :lol: I can just hear ol' Jolee telling that story too! :D

XA-R01
12-13-2005, 11:50 AM
Did anyone notice that Bendak Starkiller can use both vibroblade and blaster. He didn't use them at the same tine offcourse, but he can. I think it will be cool to have ability to use blaster and melee/lightsaber.

offcourse you didnt use them at the same time. Imagine you are jedi consular/sentinel who didn't have force jump. your force are depleted so you cant use saber throw and you are running out of grenades. lots of enemies 10m ahead. you shoot them with your cassus fett's pistol. when they getting closer you slashed them with your lightsaber. you can do those things without have to go to the equip screen and change weapons. Yeah, I know, Kotor2 have "switch weapon config" feature. but if different than using blaster and melee/lighsaber at the same time. different animation, different fun, different gore, etc.

oh, and i want blood and dismemberment on kotor like on JK2/JK3. Imagine your opponent have 40 VP, when his VP goes to 10 or lower, you cut his arms or legs and final blows to the head. hehehehehehahahahha (Darth Sidious laugh when fighting with Yoda and throw his saber).

Mono_Giganto
12-13-2005, 02:56 PM
Bendak didn't use a vibroblade and a blaster at the same time. He switched the sword for the blaster in the exact same way you can do it in K2. (Many Npcs do this.)

Darth Windu
12-14-2005, 12:12 AM
Grief, how did this topic get to three pages?

Gotta say, using a Lightsabre in one hand and a Blaster in the other is a terrible idea.

Lucas has already said that Jedi use Lightsabre's (unless they don't have access to one) because they are terrific in close-range combat and can also protect the Jedi in ranged combat.

Apparently, the whole point of forcing the Jedi to fight hand-to-hand is that they must really look at and see the person they are trying to kill, so that it doesn't become easy or impersonal.

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 12:43 AM
Gotta say, using a Lightsabre in one hand and a Blaster in the other is a terrible idea.

Bloody hell, we agree! Take a picture :D



Apparently, the whole point of forcing the Jedi to fight hand-to-hand is that they must really look at and see the person they are trying to kill, so that it doesn't become easy or impersonal.

I think that you're on to something here. It could be part of the concept of sophisticated warriors and honor. We know Obi-Wan would never take a blaster and fight with it unless necessary.
There's honor in battle and facing your opponent in melee is a great test of strength.

XA-R01
12-14-2005, 11:04 AM
@Mono_Giganto: Bendak did use both vibroblade and pistol. I know because I often loading my savegame to have re-match with bendak over 40 times or more because I think the duel ring with bendak is the coolest encounter on Kotor (not because I lose, well, maybe for the first 5 encounters). Your argument that Bendak switching weapon is also true though, yes he shoot us when we far and switch to vibroblade when we closer. But if you choose run & guerilla tactic when fighting him (running around so that he can't grenade or shoot you), sometimes he will keep the vibroblade on his hand and extract his blaster and shoot you while still holding the blade. the way he's holding the blaster when shooting is crossing-hands, "sniper shoot" stance, but the difference is he stil holding the blade. Try it yourself. I hope I can provide you with a pic sometimes later. No... my eyes are clear, not false, and I've seen it countless times.

Sorry for little off-topic here. Back on-topic: while I agree to have the ability to hold ranged and melee/saber at the same time, I didn't agree if we can deflect blaster bolt while shooting (at the same time). that's just stupid. even when you are holding a single or dual lightsaber, you can't deflect blaster bolt when slashing an enemy while getting blaster shot from another enemies from around you.

Rain128
12-14-2005, 11:35 AM
that happes when the game wants to do a weapon switch at the same time as an "attack" occures... yes i have seen it too but they dont use both at the same time.. its just buggy graphics

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 11:53 AM
sometimes he will keep the vibroblade on his hand and extract his blaster and shoot you while still holding the blade. the way he's holding the blaster when shooting is crossing-hands, "sniper shoot" stance, but the difference is he stil holding the blade. Try it yourself. I hope I can provide you with a pic sometimes later. No... my eyes are clear, not false, and I've seen it countless times.


That's called a bug ;)

I've done it 18 times and I have no idea what you're talking about.

Cygnus Q'ol
12-14-2005, 01:43 PM
That's called a bug ;)

I've done it 18 times and I have no idea what you're talking about.

It doesn't matter. It is so irrelevant to the original post.

The idea was to see if people thought it was feasible to wield a saber in the off hand to deflect blasters, then shoot with a ranged weapon.

True sabarists, of course, would think "How silly" and "what's the pupose?"

Others would say, "fine, let's try it. It's just a game".
I guess it's up to the development team, but, from what I'm hearing, I doubt this option will be utilized.

...at least in this (next) game.

Mono_Giganto
12-14-2005, 02:16 PM
@Mono_Giganto: Bendak did use both vibroblade and pistol. I know because I often loading my savegame to have re-match with bendak over 40 times or more because I think the duel ring with bendak is the coolest encounter on Kotor (not because I lose, well, maybe for the first 5 encounters). Your argument that Bendak switching weapon is also true though, yes he shoot us when we far and switch to vibroblade when we closer. But if you choose run & guerilla tactic when fighting him (running around so that he can't grenade or shoot you), sometimes he will keep the vibroblade on his hand and extract his blaster and shoot you while still holding the blade. the way he's holding the blaster when shooting is crossing-hands, "sniper shoot" stance, but the difference is he stil holding the blade. Try it yourself. I hope I can provide you with a pic sometimes later. No... my eyes are clear, not false, and I've seen it countless times.

Oh, believe me, I have tried, and I am aware of the game's capabilities, and if at any point he had one of each in his hand, it was definitely a bug.

And heh, I'm no honorable saberist or anything. Anyone who has known me at HL for more than 5 seconds knows I like using blasters. I just don't like the balance issue that will take place utilizing both weapons at once, a balance issue which will not be fixed by penalties.