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View Full Version : Why can't Kreia read Bao-Dur's thoughts?


Char Ell
12-05-2005, 01:02 AM
During what I believe is one of the lessons of listening Kreia remarks how she can't read the Iridonian's thoughts like the rest of the crew but yet the Exile can. Anybody have any thoughts as to why?

Achilles
12-05-2005, 01:14 AM
If you play DS male and gain more than 80% influence with Mandalore, there will be a cutscene where Mandalore and B-D get into it about the Mandalorian Wars. During that conversation, it is revealed that Bao-Dur is actually an android. If you remember, Kreia states that she can't read the droids. Clever bit of foreshadowing on the devs part if you ask me.

Char Ell
12-05-2005, 01:42 AM
Thanks Achilles. You da man!!! :thumbsup:

Very interesting. I haven't played DS yet so this is something only revealed if you play DS male then? And how strange that Bao-Dur is an android and yet is a Force-sensitive. That opens up a whole new can of worms in the SW universe, no?

But still, why can the Exile read Bao-Dur's thoughts and Kreia can't? I realize this may not be revealed in the game since I haven't found it but then again I didn't know Bao-Dur was an android before now so maybe there is something more evidentiary than speculative about this. In either case, I don't know so that's why I posed the question. :D

lukeiamyourdad
12-05-2005, 01:53 AM
Strange. I never came across that and I did have both those conditions.

About the android part:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=android

By definition, he is still made from biological material, which would explain why he would need to replace his arm by a mechanical one.
It would also explain why he was force sensitive. He was not totally machine.

As for the link with the Exile, I have no idea. Perhaps the Exile had some part in Bao-Dur's creation.

Achilles
12-05-2005, 02:01 AM
Strange. I never came across that and I did have both those conditions.Shhhhhhhhhh! :D

lukeiamyourdad
12-05-2005, 02:05 AM
I knew it! :D

You son of a... *shakes fist*

You got me there :D

Emperor Devon
12-05-2005, 02:06 AM
If you play DS male and gain more than 80% influence with Mandalore, there will be a cutscene where Mandalore and B-D get into it about the Mandalorian Wars.

Are you sure? I took a look at the dialogue files in the Ebon Hawk, and there was absolutely nothing about that.

lukeiamyourdad
12-05-2005, 02:08 AM
Re-read the last two posts ;)

Char Ell
12-05-2005, 02:13 AM
*** checks calendar ***
What? Is it April Fools' again so soon?

How did I fall for that one? Yep, ya got me too...

Alright for you Achilles. I'll never take you at your word again. It's back to checking the dialog files on my own... grumble *$#%... blasted &*#... make me do it on my own then #@$# :xp:

RobQel-Droma
12-05-2005, 02:37 AM
You little....

I just thought I spoiled a major part of the game by looking in this thread, but I guess I didn't. Oh well, you got me too Achilles. :D

Emperor Devon
12-05-2005, 03:21 AM
Ach! I suppose that was getting back at me for the KOTOR III link in my signature?

RedHawke
12-05-2005, 04:42 AM
Shhhhhhhhhh! :D
:rofl: Bwahahahahaha!!! :lol:

If you play DS male and gain more than 80% influence with Mandalore, there will be a cutscene where Mandalore and B-D get into it about the Mandalorian Wars. During that conversation, it is revealed that Bao-Dur is actually an android. If you remember, Kreia states that she can't read the droids. Clever bit of foreshadowing on the devs part if you ask me.
That was really well done Achilles! :D

TheGreenGoblin
12-05-2005, 09:56 AM
^^^ Actually had me going there for a while. :D


Anyway as to the real reason, didn't Kreia say something about not being able to understand an alien because their minds work differently?

Char Ell
12-05-2005, 10:23 AM
That was really well done Achilles!
I grudgingly agree. There are very few forum members who could have pulled that off. Of course it would have been much funnier if I wasn't the victim but at least I can take some solace that I wasn't the only one he had going... :D

Prime
12-05-2005, 10:33 AM
I can't believe you guys fell for that. :)

RobQel-Droma
12-05-2005, 11:23 AM
You had me pretty good too. I was thinking, "Well, maybe that is why he has that wierd soft voice, because he is some android that somebody made."

TheGreenGoblin
12-05-2005, 11:53 AM
^^

I was thinking he had suffered some kind of injury and had machinery hooked up to his brain. How was I supposed to know? I barely take Bao-Dur outside the ship as it is. :D

The_Maker
12-05-2005, 03:47 PM
Darn you Achilles!
I almost believed you! :xp:

Anyhow, I thought she couldn't "read" him because he is an alien, but... meh.

The Doctor
12-05-2005, 06:55 PM
I can't believe you guys fell for that. :)
I knew it was a load of bull chips. There are no androids in Star Wars. Only droids. If you had said that Bao-Dur was a droid, then I might have believed you, Achilles.

Grifman
12-05-2005, 09:14 PM
Shhhhhhhhhh! :D

And I bet your rebalance mod doesn't work either! :)

Achilles
12-05-2005, 10:35 PM
No, that one does work. None of the others do though :)

I figured if everyone else was allowed to just make stuff up *cough*vacuummaskonthestarforge*cough* then I could too ;)

lukeiamyourdad
12-05-2005, 11:26 PM
Should we get back on topic now?

The original question does have some merit.

We know Atton uses his emotions to shield his thoughts, but we don't know what makes Kreia unable to read Bao-Dur. Well, we know she must hear something, but we don't know why she can't interpret it but you can.

Achilles
12-05-2005, 11:38 PM
Sure, but I think it's already been answered a couple of times (and not by me).

Kreia: The droid cannot be read in such a way - as for the alien who served with you in the war, its thoughts are more difficult, requiring many translations in meaning. Often it is better to read their impulses and images than their spoken thoughts. That is why he is deaf to you - I have found his impulses are cold, like a dead weight, his thoughts are black.

lukeiamyourdad
12-05-2005, 11:40 PM
Yes, but it doesn't explain how he answers to you.

Char Ell
12-05-2005, 11:53 PM
At long last, back OT. I'm going to go thru the dialog files (learned my lesson the hard way:D) to see if I can find anything but I'm guessing that there won't be much in the way of solid reasons why the Exile can but Kreia can't. It's probably one of those things that the devs just left hanging out there, know what I mean. We only need to know that it is not why it is...

Doesn't mean we can't speculate about it though and make some educated guesses as to the why. Personally I have no idea why but thought maybe somebody else would have an inkling.

But maybe if I play DS male and get Mandalore and Bao-Dur to get in each other's face over the Mandalorian Wars the truth will reveal itself... :smirk2:

EDIT: Actually on second thought I'll throw out a crazy one. It's Bao-Dur's horns. They act as a telepathic shield and Bao-Dur can pick and choose who he will allow into his mind. He gave Kreia the block but let the General in because his horns allow him to sense who is trying to pick his brain. You know it's actually like Bao-Dur is speaking to the Exile when the Exile tunes in to his mind because Bao-Dur says, "Your command echoes still, General. And I obey, as I did at Malachor." Eh? What do y'all think? :cool:

The Doctor
12-06-2005, 09:16 PM
Even if it was cut out, it might still be buried somewhere, just blocked off from the rest of the game. I've seen dialogue options in there that I've never seen, no matter what I do.

Emperor Devon
12-07-2005, 12:44 AM
Okay, I think I may have thought of a reason.

Remeber in the RotJ comic when Luke uses a mind trick and it fails on Jabba? Jabba says tricks like that don't work on him, because he is not affected by the human though pattern.

Perhaps Bao-Dur's species is very different than humans in terms of thought, and that his mind was simply too alien and different for Kreia to probe into.

PoiuyWired
12-07-2005, 03:06 PM
Well, things like Toydorians and Hutts have natural resistance to mind tricks and mind reads. BUT that means little in this case.

For one we know Zabrak does not have such resistance. That and Exile can mine read him ok.

Emperor Devon
12-07-2005, 08:51 PM
That was because the Exile and Bao-Dur knew each other very well, and had been through a lot together.

GuitarNProgress
12-08-2005, 04:19 AM
Sure, but I think it's already been answered a couple of times (and not by me).

Kreia: The droid cannot be read in such a way - as for the alien who served with you in the war, its thoughts are more difficult, requiring many translations in meaning. Often it is better to read their impulses and images than their spoken thoughts. That is why he is deaf to you - I have found his impulses are cold, like a dead weight, his thoughts are black.


I think we all need to reread this :). This right here is saying deaf to you; Therefore, you can't hear him. His impulses and thoughts can't be read by her, apparently. Maybe it's because my force is stronger than hers? :D

Anyways, yes, there IS a confrontation between Mandalore and Bao-Dur, but he definately didn't say anything to do with Androids (besides maybe his arm...) and I definately had no influence with Mandalore.

RedHawke
12-09-2005, 04:38 AM
Anyways, yes, there IS a confrontation between Mandalore and Bao-Dur, but he definately didn't say anything to do with Androids (besides maybe his arm...) and I definately had no influence with Mandalore.
That Android part was a joke by Achilles there GNP! ;)

lukeiamyourdad
12-09-2005, 07:35 PM
Reading a whole thread before posting helps. Maybe someone should make a picture with that message.

BattleDog
12-10-2005, 12:56 PM
How about this, there is a Force Bond between Bao-dur and the Exile.

PoiuyWired
12-10-2005, 08:32 PM
Tin-Foil Hats against the Old Hag!!!

Force Bond? Never thought of that. Though in game terms it does not function as such.

BattleDog
12-11-2005, 09:54 AM
This isn't about the game though, is it? When you meet the Council they tell you that you form bonds easily and that that is what you have done with your party members. Kreia has not bond with Bao-dur so she can't read him, but you do so you can.

lukeiamyourdad
12-11-2005, 12:33 PM
I don't think so, as she can read the others. Though the bond could indeed explain you reading Bao-Dur, it does not explain why she can't.

GuitarNProgress
12-13-2005, 05:05 AM
Reading a whole thread before posting helps. Maybe someone should make a picture with that message.

I did. Someone said that they couldn't trigger an encounter between Mandalore and Bao-Dur (even though it had already been said that the Android part wasn't true), so I was just confirming that you could indeed get it to happen, and if I'm not mistaken, it happens every time.

Besides, I doubt it's a force bond (although it could be possible) and I'd bank more on the matter of Bao-Dur blocking her out. Honestly, though, Kreia's words are easily twisted in so many ways it's hard to really even know what she's saying when she links more than 5 words together.

Oh, and not to be a smart *** or anything but... Understanding a whole post and what was meant before posting an accusation helps. Maybe someone should make a picture with that message.

lukeiamyourdad
12-13-2005, 11:36 AM
Oh, and not to be a smart *** or anything but... Understanding a whole post and what was meant before posting an accusation helps. Maybe someone should make a picture with that message.


Or, you could have been clearer by quoting the person.

By the way, I can't find this "post" about someone being unable to trigger the dialogue.

BattleDog
12-13-2005, 12:30 PM
I don't think so, as she can read the others. Though the bond could indeed explain you reading Bao-Dur, it does not explain why she can't.

Yes it does. The others are all human, Kreia can read humans. Bao-dur isn't human, so Kreia can't read him. However you have a bond with Bao-dur, so you can read him.

Think of it like Bao-dur being a door with a lock, you have the key, Kreia doesn't. The others are all unlocked doors, so anyone can read them.

lukeiamyourdad
12-13-2005, 01:16 PM
Yes it does. The others are all human, Kreia can read humans. Bao-dur isn't human, so Kreia can't read him. However you have a bond with Bao-dur, so you can read him.

Think of it like Bao-dur being a door with a lock, you have the key, Kreia doesn't. The others are all unlocked doors, so anyone can read them.

Even Visas? She isn't human and I don't think that with here training, it would be easy to get in. Same with Handmaiden, considering she was probably tarined to resist any kind of mental attacks.
There's no indication of Iridonians being able to naturally block out mind invaders.

Char Ell
12-13-2005, 10:38 PM
There's no indication of Iridonians being able to naturally block out mind invaders
I'm telling you guys, it's the horns! :D

Even Visas? She isn't human and I don't think that with here training, it would be easy to get in. Same with Handmaiden, considering she was probably tarined to resist any kind of mental attacks.
Yes, but both Kreia and the Exile can listen to Brianna's and Visas' thoughts. Neither is trying to attack their minds. They are just listening to them. A passive action as opposed to an aggressive action and as such less likely to be noticed.

I think the "force bond between Exile and Bao-Dur" hypothesis offered by BattleDog is the most plausible thus far. The Exile and Bao-Dur served together in the Mandalorian Wars and the Exile could very well have formed some sort of connection in the Force that allows the Exile to overcome the differences in mind processes and thus hear Bao-Dur's thoughts. Kreia on the other hand has no previous experience with Bao-Dur that we're aware of and therefore it stands to reason she would not have any Force-related connection to Bao-Dur.

It's all good speculation. I searched the TSL dialog files but pretty much found what I expected on this subject: jack squat! ::

Jae Onasi
12-13-2005, 11:03 PM
I can see the force-bond thing.
I'm wondering if it's also because both Exile and Bao-Dur served during the Wars, and because of that they understood each other in a fundamental way that Kreia couldn't.
Or, Kreia could just have been her usual cryptic and sometimes disingenuous self again--Exile didn't seem so deaf to Bao-Dur to me.

lukeiamyourdad
12-13-2005, 11:06 PM
So yeah, Force bond, I think it's the most plausible too, but that still doesn't explain why she can't understand him.
He has a way to block her that we don't know about.

Char Ell
12-13-2005, 11:38 PM
Or, Kreia could just have been her usual cryptic and sometimes disingenuous self again
Ooooo. Yeah. Disingenous. That's an excellent word, Jae. I'm going to make it my word of the day. ;)

So yeah, Force bond, I think it's the most plausible too, but that still doesn't explain why she can't understand him.
Yeah, not really unless you discount what PoiuyWired said about Zabraks not having mind resistance. I ask instead what evidence do we have that Zabraks don't? We certainly don't have any from the game as Bao-Dur is the only Iridonian character. Hmmm, wait a second. I seem to recall an Iridonian mercenary on Manaan in KotOR that you either persuaded or force persuaded to get info on the missing Selkath youth. I can't remember which right now. Sheeoot, I don't know. Unless we can get more concrete information on the Zabrak species susceptibility to mind reading/mind tricks then the "Exile force bond with Bao-Dur" theory has some holes in it.

lukeiamyourdad
12-13-2005, 11:43 PM
The mercenary on Manaan is an Iridorian. Not the same with Bao-Dur. It's a common mistake.

The only other two Iridorians that come into mind are Darth Maul and that one on the Jedi Council. Both are trained in the Force, so using them as examples of mind resistance isn't too good.

Char Ell
12-14-2005, 12:00 AM
The mercenary on Manaan is an Iridorian. Not the same with Bao-Dur. It's a common mistake.
Ah, 'tis good to be reminded that I'm human and do make mistakes from time to time, even common ones... :D
The only other two Iridorians that come into mind are Darth Maul and that one on the Jedi Council. Both are trained in the Force, so using them as examples of mind resistance isn't too good.
Why is that? Are you saying that someone who is Force sensitive can't have mind resistance? I don't know that one necessarily follows the other although that may be the case for all I know. But maybe that's why we never see any Hutt or Toydarian Jedi, eh? :D

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 12:04 AM
You misunderstood me. I meant that since they were trained in the Force, they wouldn't be too good an example of natural resistance.
The both surely would have techniques to block out invaders.
I know that Bao-Dur is Force Sensitive, but he managed to hide his thoughts before he became a Jedi.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that it's actually a wall of strong emotions.
Like with Atton, Bao-Dur's feelings provide a shield against intruders.

Jae Onasi
12-14-2005, 12:51 AM
[QUOTE=Hai Wan]Ooooo. Yeah. Disingenous. That's an excellent word, Jae. I'm going to make it my word of the day. ;)



It's so much more concise and diplomatic than saying 'She's lying through her teeth right now to mess with your mind.' :yoda:

Maybe Bao-Dur saw so much death during the Wars that he's walled everyone out, except those he trusts; he trusts Exile, so s/he's able to bond. Atton plays pazaak, Bao-Dur tinkers with machines.

Char Ell
12-14-2005, 12:52 AM
The more I think about it, the more I believe that it's actually a wall of strong emotions.
Like with Atton, Bao-Dur's feelings provide a shield against intruders.
OK. Sounds like a good hypothesis but the problem is still why can the Exile hear Bao-Dur's thoughts and Kreia can't? If Bao-Dur is using his strong emotions to block force sensitives from reading his mind, consciously or not, then why can the Exile listen to his thoughts? Do you suggest that it could be the previous relationship and/or bond that Bao-Dur developed with the Exile during the Mandalorian Wars that allows the Exile to penetrate the wall of strong emotion and hear Bao-Dur's mental machinations?

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 01:39 AM
Yeah. His strong emotions would normally block everyone out, sending false signals but the Exile, having a strong bond with Bao-Dur, can somehow read him through his defenses.

BattleDog
12-14-2005, 10:57 AM
Yes, or it may just be that an Iridonian's mind is too alien for you to read normally. You misundersttod about the bond before, the game states that you have formed bonds with all your apprentices, thats why you affect their alignment. I was suggesting the bond was a new thing.

Of course we could always just go with Keia is lying, after all, if she had read Bao-dur's thoughts then you would have been straight off to you-know-where.