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JediMaster12
12-05-2005, 12:29 PM
Everyone is talking about how they want to be a Jedi or a regular guy at the start of KOTOR 3. What I'm curious to know is what are people's view of the Jedi. The Disciple says the Jedi are a symbol and they are different. Jolee Bindo says something that people think the Jedi are perfect. What is your take?

RobQel-Droma
12-05-2005, 08:46 PM
I guess you could just say it like Vandar did, "Guardians (or something) of the galaxy, sworn defenders of the Republic." They can use the force, they wield a hot glowing sword thingy (saber), and they wear robes. They are good people, they try and help people (although that may not be the end result), and they are a noble order. I'm not sure what else to say, as far as just describing what they are. I don't think they are perfect, not at all, but as a whole they are good.

The Doctor
12-05-2005, 08:58 PM
They bug me. They just piss me off. I don't know why.
It might be because they're just to calm, to peaceful. They don't laugh, or cry, or even smile enough.

SilverSentinal2
12-05-2005, 09:10 PM
I think the Jedi are a noble group of specially gifted individuals who believe it is their calling to use those gifts for the benifit of the galaxy. That being said I think that their code is flawed and they have a tendency to be too narrow minded and convinced their way is the only way. Nothing in life is absolute and a different way isn't always the wrong way.

DarthSion101
12-05-2005, 09:56 PM
The jedi are nothing more than a bunch of weak, pathetic fools, who have surrendered themselves, and their abilities to shield those to useless to protect themselves. The Jedi Order is archaic, a symbol of an imaginary chivalry which can never survive. They had a chance to taste the Dark Side, and experience true power, yet they turn away, their misplaced compassion and weakness will be there undoing. Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy.....and we shall have ......POWER!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!

Alkonium
12-05-2005, 10:27 PM
The Jedi are noble men and women, but their code is slightly outdated. Were it not for their Code speaking against love, they could have mastered the power of the Light Side and destroyed the Sith. Plus, if the Jedi have kids, there's going to be even more Jedi.

Eagle Racer
12-06-2005, 09:01 AM
I agree with Zez-Kai Ell says about the council, and I think it applies to both the KOTOR series and the movies. Jolee and Kyle Katan seem to be the only Jedi who get it. The Jedi code is flawed and has been since the begining. The council with their actions and how the treated Anakin is what lead him to the darkside.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-06-2005, 09:10 AM
Jolee and Kyle Katan seem to be the only Jedi who get it.
I completely agree.
They just piss me off.
Same here. The fact that they think of themselves and thought of as 'Perfect and Superior Beings' pisses me off a bit. And when you become a Jedi, you are perfect and great and strong. I like to be a Soldier and then a Jedi. That way you are good and powerful, but not perfect.

Prime
12-06-2005, 09:25 AM
The council with their actions and how the treated Anakin is what lead him to the darkside.So you are saying Anakin doesn't have to take any responsibility for what he did?

Ztalker
12-06-2005, 10:22 AM
I think Jedi aren't hero's, and aren't perfect.
I just think they are somekind of 'Shaolin Monks' of their time.
Just some over-trained person that excists to serve. It doesn't matter how.

And i agree with what has said before.
Only Kyle and Jolee get it. being a Jedi is to serve, and protect others.
How doesn't matter (Force Lightning was used by Kyle too), as long as you protect.

SilverSentinal2
12-06-2005, 10:26 AM
I know I didn't post the thing on Anakin but I have to say this... Anakin of course ultimately chose the path of the dark side so yes he bares that responsibility. But had the Council been more open minded and felxable with their code, they would have helped him to see his other options. Anakin had always been isolated in the Order, first by his age, then by his abilities, and finally his love and subsecquent marrige to Padme. Although Obi-wan (whom I love adore and completely support) did his best to guide him, he was far to inexperienced to take him on as an apprentice. Also Obi had little or no way of understanding Ani's special needs because of being raised by his mother. The rule of no attachment could never apply to him to begin with. Add to that the complete refusal of the Council to support or even trust the young man throughout his life and its no wonder he ends up turning to Palpatine when he dreams of Padme's death. After Obi didn't realize his dreams of his mother were forsight, either by choice or by ignorence. Palpatine also used the Force to warp Ani's mind, he had no defence against this because the masters refused to believe that the Sith controled the Senate until he told them. Falling was inveitable but also preventable if the masters had stopped believing that the Jedi tradition was the only to stay on the light side.
P.S. I agree with both Kyle and Jolee on just about everything especially what Kyle says about abilities in JA and what Jolee says about love.

RobQel-Droma
12-06-2005, 10:53 AM
Jedi do not think of themselves as superior and perfect. They can be arrogant, but only a few; most of them have exactly the opposite of that view, kind of.

I agree with Kyle and Jolee. Not only did they rock, they were the few that understood a few flaws about the Jedi. I'm not saying that the Jedi are stupid, of course, it is just that a few of their rules need changing

P.S. It is about how you use the powers (like force lightning like Ztalker said), but most of those powers are only used by your hate. Most of the time, the people using that are trying to kill and inflict pain with it, there really isn't anything else to do with those powers; which is why they are DS powers. The Jedi most of the time don't want to kill, unless there is absolutely no other way.

PoiuyWired
12-06-2005, 11:27 AM
Well, first off, I think in EU one of the Jedi Council Members have a variant version of Force Lightning... he calls it "something justice" or something... that is in addition to Kyle using it. Its how you use the force that counts, despite what the rpg system tells you. So yes, even force choke can be a valid power by a lightsider, or force lightning, or drain. There are, however, obvious LS/DS powers, like force rage.

Also, I think only those who have tasted/touched the dark side(even if its a marginal thing) can understand the flaws of the old jedi order. I personally thinks the old jedi order is being too full if themselves that it is better off they are eliminated. They have become too much tied to the rules than to the heart of the lightside, not unlike some dusty old religious orders. Basically the old jedi order is unbalancing the force, although I doubt if the jedis themselves know it. Then again I am not too much of a lawful guy to start with.

So call me sith/darksider if you like, but a more greysider way of doing things is better. In a way NJO is more greyish, more in tune to the balance of the force.

(Not gettig into the living force vs. unifying force issue here)

RobQel-Droma
12-06-2005, 12:49 PM
^Well, eliminated is going way far, just to tell you. That would mean the galaxy being put in danger by any Sith who wants to take over. Just because there are a few flaws in the Jedi Order doesn't mean kill every single person.

But I do agree with you, most powers aren't DS and LS, but force powers like Rage are DS, and I would even consider Choke to be DS (Its a pretty evil way to kill someone). And I think that they Jedi are a bit tied to tradition and the old way to do things than really trying to make things better.

John Skywalker
12-06-2005, 02:08 PM
I agrees with Alkonium if they didnt aabide strongly to their rules the sith would never rule. And plus the jedi are arrogant and big headed about their force powers e.g like when mace says in episode 1, "i think we would have sensed the siths presence" ooooo the arrogance!!:)

JediMaster12
12-06-2005, 02:25 PM
You know, even then in TSL one or two of the lost Jedi say that the teachings were flawed and that they become arrogant. To go so far to say that their chivalry is outmoded, brings rather a long look to my face. To me chivalry is one of the things our society today lacks seriously.

I do agree that the Jedi Code is flawed. I tend to agreed with Jolee as my sig says that love can end up saving you. How many times have been the instance where the hero gets his last bit of strength from the love he feels. Passion, while a good thing can be an undoing, the bad part of love. As Yoda says, passion and possession can often lead to jealousy.

For the most part, I tend to think of the Jedi Order as a means to control what makes us tick. Teaching to take responsibility and to use the gifts we have responsibly. All Jedi have touched the darkside, anger, etc some have just learned to let it go. The Jedi are not superior beings or perfect, even Jolee said that. I think they merely have the benefit of seeing things in a different light and that they use their talents for those who need help.

Eagle Racer
12-06-2005, 06:38 PM
So you are saying Anakin doesn't have to take any responsibility for what he did?

I don't think he would have done what he did if they had treated him with some shred of humanity as well as not lying to him about their suspensions of Palpatine and then Windu trying to kill Palpatine right infront of him, which totally goes against the code of the Jedi, and everything they stand for. Instead of trying to help him with his troubled heart they treated him like and outcast of the order, and only added to the problems. Instead of being people he could trust, they added to how troubled a person he was. Even Obi wan was guilty of great arogance in the movies. He was faced with the truth by Dooku and refused to listin to him at all. I'll be honest though, this is why I like Star Wars so much, because the real good guys aren't so easy to spot.

RobQel-Droma
12-06-2005, 07:18 PM
^First of all, I don't know of any spot that says killing a Sith Lord is against the Jedi code. If that was so, then you should be exiled from the Jedi Order every time you played KotOR. Jedi don't like to kill, but that doesn't mean they won't. There are some times you just can't leave someone alive, especially someone as twisted as Palpatine.

And the reason Anakin's heart was troubled was not the Jedi council's fault. He broke a lot of the Jedi Code, and knew it, yet kept it secret from them. That is his fault that he chose to break the rules; and because of that, he paid the price for it by falling to the dark side through what he had done. I'm not saying that the Jedi council didn't have anything to do with it, but if Anakin hadn't been in the spot he was in in the beginning, or insisted on being trained even though he was too old, he wouldn't have fallen.

BumpoTheHutt
12-06-2005, 07:42 PM
An interesting topic.

Keep in mind though, the old Jedi ways were eventually destroyed. Wouldn't that have been BECAUSE of the "will of the Force?" Things were out of balance, with two Sith at any one time and tens of thousands of Jedi?

Seems to me, the Force itself must not have been too terribly pleased with those odds if "balance" needed to be restored.

And where did it lead? To Luke. Who saw the good in Vader and was able to recognize that no one way had all the answers. He was the balance the Force needed.

At least that's what the story (movies) says to me.

The Doctor
12-06-2005, 07:50 PM
First of all, I don't know of any spot that says killing a Sith Lord is against the Jedi code
The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners. No one deserves execution; no matter what their crimes.
PWNED:D:D:D:D

And Anakin never argued with the Council's decision to not train him - Qui-Gon did, and made Obi-Wan promise to train him no matter what the Council's decision.

PWNED AGAIN:D:D:D:D

SilverSentinal2
12-06-2005, 09:21 PM
^First of all, I don't know of any spot that says killing a Sith Lord is against the Jedi code. If that was so, then you should be exiled from the Jedi Order every time you played KotOR. Jedi don't like to kill, but that doesn't mean they won't. There are some times you just can't leave someone alive, especially someone as twisted as Palpatine.

And the reason Anakin's heart was troubled was not the Jedi council's fault. He broke a lot of the Jedi Code, and knew it, yet kept it secret from them. That is his fault that he chose to break the rules; and because of that, he paid the price for it by falling to the dark side through what he had done. I'm not saying that the Jedi council didn't have anything to do with it, but if Anakin hadn't been in the spot he was in in the beginning, or insisted on being trained even though he was too old, he wouldn't have fallen.

OK I have an objection to the part of this post that says Ani was "hiding" his relationship with Padme along with the other trauma's in his life.

First of all at the end of the 1st duel with Dukoo Padme runs up to him and they embrace right in front of Yoda and Obi-wan! You can't tell me Yoda didn't know what was going on.

Secondly Yoda and Mace Windu both felt Ani's rage and actions on Tatooine with the Sand People, and he was never repremanded, or Palpatine would've mentiond it.

Thirdly Obi-wan commends Ani for the role he played in rescuing Palpatine including killing Dukoo.

Finally, you can't convince me that the Council and Obi-wan were so blinded by the Dark side that they couldn't sense Padme's pregnency with twin force users of unimaginable power.

Alkonium
12-06-2005, 09:44 PM
PWNED:D:D:D:D

And Anakin never argued with the Council's decision to not train him - Qui-Gon did, and made Obi-Wan promise to train him no matter what the Council's decision.

PWNED AGAIN:D:D:D:D
About that thing Bastila said, it means a Jedi must only kill in self-defense.

RobQel-Droma
12-06-2005, 09:51 PM
Firstly, they might have known that, they might not. They might not have suspected; what she did doesn't necessarily mean she was in love, at least to them.

Secondly, Yoda and Mace didn't know what he had done, they just felt a lot of rage. Who knows that they didn't talk to him, between II and III? Besides, they suspected something- that is why they didn't trust him.

Thirdly, Obi-Wan didn't know that Anakin had killed Dooku while he was defenceless; he thought that Anakin had no other choice during the battle (he was knocked out, you know). You see, Anakin never said that he had captured Dooku and then killed him in cold blood.

Finally, the council and Obi-Wan couldn't even feel the presence of Sith Lords returning in Episode I, remember? And they weren't in that much contact with Padme, nor would it be easy to detect force potential in people that haven't even been born yet.

PWNED:D:D:D:D

1) Kotor is four thousand years before the movies, things could have changed. 2) That is not part of the Jedi Code, that is just a belief. 3)Palpatine was not a "prisoner", he was still using force lightning on Mace, remember? He wasn't defenceless, he could have gotten up and attacked Mace; he was trying to get Anakin turned, and Mace knew this. That was why he told Anakin to stay behind, because he was afraid of what Palpatine would try and tempt him with.

Clone L68362
12-06-2005, 11:54 PM
The jedi are nothing more than a bunch of weak, pathetic fools, who have surrendered themselves, and their abilities to shield those to useless to protect themselves. The Jedi Order is archaic, a symbol of an imaginary chivalry which can never survive. They had a chance to taste the Dark Side, and experience true power, yet they turn away, their misplaced compassion and weakness will be there undoing. Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy.....and we shall have ......POWER!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!

Whoooaaaa!! *Gives you a tranquilizer*

I think the Jedi have the right ideas about some things, but the Sith have some good ideas too. The Jedi are better though.

Eagle Racer
12-07-2005, 12:01 AM
Anakin flat said Jedi don't kill captives, even if they are the dark lord. If you want to quote the movie, you forget that Palpatine had surrenderd to Windu hoping he would do exactly what Windu did. Oh and lets not forget the Jedi code explicitately states the word JUSTICE in it. Field excicuting someone who has surrendered isn't justice.

I never said the Jedi caused any of the original problems Ani had, but they didn't help him as they should have to deal with them in a constructive manner. They left the seed of the hurt with his mother there, and they let it grow. They knew full well it was there, they sinced it when they first met him. They choose to ignore the problem.

They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.

SilverSentinal2
12-07-2005, 12:31 AM
Bravo!!!!!!!!! Well said When my boyfriend and I have this arguement (he's for sith I'm for Jedi) he's always telling me that I'm actually a ssith because I don't see light or dark. But I say no I am merely a Jedi who sees in color!

SITHSLAYER133
12-07-2005, 12:38 AM
jedi are to pig headed to see that there not always right (not a darksider) but the sith suffer from the same problem its only when u look at both of these sides can some truth be found

JediMaster12
12-07-2005, 02:00 AM
For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights have been the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times...before the Empire:Obi-wan Kenobi

The Jedi don't believe in killing their prisoners. No one deserves execution no matter what their crimes Bastilla

That is what I believe in the Jedi though I do have to say that by the time we get to Episode III, they have become arrogant in their abilities and teachings. As some have pointed in other posts, the arrogance shows when Master Windu says that the Sith couldn't have returned without them knowing. Even Master Kavar and the other masters said that it was more likely that their teachings were flawed.

His abilities have him arrogant:Obi-Wan Kenobi

Yes, a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves, even the older, more experienced:Yoda

Prime
12-07-2005, 10:12 AM
I don't think he would have done what he did if they had treated him with some shred of humanityI do. I'm not saying the order didn't make matters worse, but Anakin still has to take some responsibility. Also, if he had actually followed the Yoda's instruction, he would not have been so obsessive of Padme's death and thus not made every decision based on it.

Eagle Racer
12-07-2005, 11:36 AM
Well I can agree to disagree on that. I think it's hard to say one way or the other if there where different actions taken by the council.

JediMaster12
12-07-2005, 11:58 AM
Then again, Anakin's fall was part of a long plot to take over the Republic. History has proved that the best conspiracies and takeovers are ones that are done over time and with hidden motives or rather two faced. Palpatine was a senator who became chancellor and then the emperor. He even said that he will be chancellor.

In short, things do change often at the manipulation of others. The arrogance of the Jedi may have contributed to it. In the end you got people who can't distinguish the difference between the Jedi and the Sith like TSL on Dantooine.

PoiuyWired
12-15-2005, 03:01 AM
They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.

Rainbow Jedis? :)

Well, in a way Sith see the world with more variety, ignoring the fact that they do everything for their own fufillment, which may include pre-emptive strikes to possable enemies and/or putting your girlfriend's evil grandma to coma.

Prime
12-15-2005, 09:51 AM
They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Because that is what almost always happened. They came to that conclusion from experience.

Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.Our world isn't, but Star Wars is designed to be.

JediMaster12
12-16-2005, 11:35 AM
They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.

Actually when it boils down to choice, there are those who see the fine line between black and white and those who don't; they see the shades of gray. So in reality choice is defined by whether or not you see the fine lines and you are defined by the choice you make based on how you view your options.
Go back to that one spot on Kashyyk with the computer protecting the Star Map. One of the options for you to choose is to evacute the people while subtly reinforcing the city. The computer tells you that is not an option. Obviously it was an either let the city die or save the city.

"For good or ill, you are now a true Padawan." Master Vrook

"The Force will be with you. Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi

Darca Lar
12-17-2005, 11:37 PM
The jedi are a good people, and although some of them choose to ignore the shades of gray, they do mean well, the hard part is trying to make them see past the black and white and look at the gray as well, which explains the mandalorian wars.

JediMaster12
12-21-2005, 01:19 PM
The jedi are a good people, and although some of them choose to ignore the shades of gray, they do mean well, the hard part is trying to make them see past the black and white and look at the gray as well, which explains the mandalorian wars.

So you would say that arrogance on the part of the Jedi is what caused the Mandalorian wars and later the rise of the Empire?

"Everyone thinks that the Jedi are perfect." Jolee Bindo

jedi3112
12-23-2005, 12:19 PM
The Jedi are an unholy order. They are the evil that walks among us. They do not realise it is their protecting the weak that makes the galaxy weak and suffer. If you can't take care of yourself you are not worthy to be alive. The weak should die to make room for the strong, that is the way of he universe. There is no reason to think about it, it just is.

We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.

Yet the Jedi try to stop us from saving the galaxy. They are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits. The claim killing people is a bad thing, however they kill people themselves. And why would one carry a lightsaber if not to kill somebody?

Hence the Jedi are evil and must be destoyed, so that we Sith will rule once again.

Ransom
12-26-2005, 07:52 AM
i hate jedi thay lie to much for anyone to like them at all, and its becuse of there lies that cause the darkness in the 1st place, i want to crush the jedi thay think that thay are the true kind but the force came from the unknown reagons so its truely the sith that should rule and not the jedi.

JediMaster12
01-05-2006, 03:23 PM
We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.

Yeah and its a wonder you never had a great empire. You are always killing your leaders. You don't get anywhere


Yet the Jedi try to stop us from saving the galaxy. They are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits. The claim killing people is a bad thing, however they kill people themselves. And why would one carry a lightsaber if not to kill somebody?

They kill in defense of themselves. You SITH think it's okay to kill someone just because of one mistake. The Jedi don't believe in killing prisoners. They hold all life sacred even that of a Sith Lord.

Sith_Reven
01-05-2006, 03:46 PM
The jedi are a plague and their arrogant ways should be eradicated. They push the peace, pacifist ways and they accomplish nothing. The dark side stuff in the games and movies; they make so much sense. Problems are solved faster and more is accomplished faster and more efficient. Peace and order is established. It is a better way.

Darth InSidious
01-05-2006, 05:10 PM
Ha! So many people, indoctrinated by Kreia!

A true Jedi is humble, and sees the faults in himself. Even Vrook was able to examine his conscience. Atris ignored her conscience, which led her to fall.

Jedi are not emotionless machines. You people keep confusing them with Vulcans for reasons I can't fathom. I would have thought Vrook would be living proof that Jedi are just as emotional as the rest of us. While many are serene, serenity is an emotional state like any other.

To lie is to go against Jedi teaching - you only do this if it's important.

The Jedi don't see everything as black and white, but they may note that a 'grey' Jedi is sailing into the wind...

Anakin could not have been saved, no matter what. It was his destiny to fall.

The Sith lie, cheat and manipulate to get what they want. They have no compunctions about doing what is necessary to achieve their goals, and no need of love, friendship, humility, conscience or anything else like that.

These are just observations of the films, books, games etc, so don't take them as written law, of course.

I find it odd, that while so many people find Kreia annoying, a lot of you sound remarkably like her in this thread ;)

Gray_Master
01-05-2006, 05:33 PM
I need to get off for now so I didn't have time to read ALL the posts but I would like t ask if anyone else has noticed the differences betweem the jedi order of KOTOR and the jedi of the movies...please no posts on how it's 4000 years later thats not what i mean....I mean the Jedi of the movies hardly seem like pacafists...what I'm saying is the Jedi in KOTOR were all like "we can't fight the Mandys..we must wait and watch" Well to be honest, I can't see Yoda, Mace, Obi, or Qui-gon doing that....I mean dang Mace tried to kill the Palpatin (sp?) which I think was a good idea.

Prime
01-06-2006, 09:53 AM
I mean the Jedi of the movies hardly seem like pacafists...You are correct, they certainly are not pacafists.

what I'm saying is the Jedi in KOTOR were all like "we can't fight the Mandys..we must wait and watch" Well to be honest, I can't see Yoda, Mace, Obi, or Qui-gon doing that....I mean dang Mace tried to kill the Palpatin (sp?) which I think was a good idea.The KOTOR Council did not advise against going to war against the Mandalorians because they were pacafists, it was because they were not convinced that jumping into a war at that time was the best course of action to ultimately defeat them. It was more a disagreement on strategy as opposed to philosophy. The KOTOR Jedi were probably even less like pacafists than the later Jedi, since there were many more conflicts at that point than there were in the years before the Clone Wars.

Darth Windu
01-06-2006, 09:58 AM
Thats right. Remember that the council apparently saw something that was pushing the Mandalorian Wars, and wanted to find out what it was first. This is similar to the situation in AotC/RotS, except there the Jedi jump in while still trying to investigate. In the end it seems neither approach is better than the other, just look at the results.

Still, looking at the actions of Revan and Anakin, it emphasises the point that a single person can change the galaaxy and in the end, it comes down to choices on the individual scale.

Just my two cents.

PoiuyWired
01-06-2006, 03:53 PM
Well, Each recarnation of the Jedi Order is different, even the same one would change over the years.

Think, the Jedi Order of Exar Kun era, kotor era, republic/clone wars era, luke's era... all have modified views on things, guidelines, jedi doctrines, and even views on the force...

Darth InSidious
01-06-2006, 03:57 PM
Luke's order is not the same. He did not have all the teachings, philosophies, manuscripts, discoveries, all the things which would have been in the Jedi Archive on Coruscant, and preserved when the Jedi disappeared. Palpatine struck so suddenly that there probably wasn't a hidden backup (The Jedi are somewhat naive at times...)

VincentFreeman
01-06-2006, 04:43 PM
The Jedi are the protectors of the galaxy. They try and help others who need that help. As whole, the jedi order is a bit arrogant and fairly narrow minded, treating their order more like a religion.
Outside of the main movies there has been an expansion upon the simple good/evil beliefs. We see that with Revan and with the exile. They are not Jedi from the order any longer but neither are they sith. They have transcended to something else much more capable.

Master omega
01-06-2006, 06:46 PM
The thing about the jedi is that they are teachers of the way in the force and also garduns of peace. Wich is all down to one thing becuase as were are told that the force is bined to all life wich in a jedi oppion should be protected at all cost. But the prob with that is What we have read and seen before that these two things dowt always go along with each other. Thats why in regards to the jedi diff between Kotor and the films. The jedi in Kotor serve the force first republic second, Movies Republic first Force second.

In my oppion

grunty
01-06-2006, 06:54 PM
They bug me. They just piss me off. I don't know why.
It might be because they're just to calm, to peaceful. They don't laugh, or cry, or even smile enough.

True

Although I hate to be DS, most LS options aren't witty or funny but boring language that you've heard from all the "wise" Jedi. I wish more options would be available to you during conversations which not only showed light/dark orientation, but also personality.

I loved the funny come-ons you could say to Bastily in K1. Great stuff.

Sith_Reven
01-07-2006, 01:13 PM
I guess I wasn't clear. By pacifists I meant in the games and only their methods. For example the whole jedi not going to war and sitting back and watching the fighting from afar.

Tysyacha
01-07-2006, 04:12 PM
In my opinion, the Jedi are gifted people who want to serve and protect
others. However, they are not perfect, and they're not above doing things
like lying if it's for the common good. They never told Darth Revan, for instance,
that he was Revan, and they never told Luke that Vader was his father. This
lying was not done for manipulative reasons, though, but out of fear.

The Jedi feared that Revan would turn back to the Dark Side if he knew the truth.
The Jedi feared what the Exile could do to the Force, and so they lied to the Exile.
The Jedi were afraid Luke might seek bloody revenge against Vader, which
would not be the Jedi way, and thus they hid the truth from Luke Skywalker.

They can also become arrogant, and I hate their views on love and passion.
I believe love is a good thing, although it can lead to jealousy and possessiveness.
The Jedi Order should have allowed Anakin and Padme to be married, and they
should have made him a Master before they put him on the Council. That way,
he MIGHT not have fallen to the Dark Side of the Force, but notice the MIGHT.

However, the Jedi believe that everyone deserves a second chance, like
Revan and Darth Vader. I'm all for redemption, so I'll stick with the Jedi.

JediMaster12
01-09-2006, 05:47 PM
If what you say is true Tysyacha about the Jedi and their fear, wouldn't they be already on the path to the darkside? In the words of Master Yoda, "Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Yes we all have fear but then what exactly is it about fear that would lead someone to fall so far?
I do say this, the Jedi do believe in redemption at least in the games but lookin at Return of the Jedi when Luke tells Obi-Wan that ther was still good in Darth Vader, he seemed unwilling to believe that.
I guess it boils down to the individual and their inner strengths.

Darth InSidious
01-09-2006, 05:56 PM
Revan and the Exile's Jediness depends on what path you take. If you are LS, then they are Jedi. If you are DS, they are Dark Jedi, IMO.

JediMaster12
01-10-2006, 03:03 AM
Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.

Master omega
01-10-2006, 06:21 PM
The jedi are honerable powerfull wise beings i personaly would not say if i had the force what personal stand point on the Darkside/Lightside thing would be becuase even though i agree with the protecting off all life and teaching the ways off the force. I dont agree with there stand piont on Love and redempation. For exsample Do you really think everone is justified in being redemed no mater what they did do you really think someone like Palpatine or one off the sith lords off old would have been redemed by the jedi If they turned from the darkside. I sertely dont

Darth InSidious
01-10-2006, 06:27 PM
Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.
Got it in one!
:D

Cygnus Q'ol
01-11-2006, 12:22 PM
Just because you are a force user doesn't make you a Jedi.

There is much training to become able to control yourself and the force enough to be trusted to go out into the gaalaxy and help others.

Which is what the order of Jedi do.

Some of their ideals however, are lost on me. Like the whole love thing.
How are we going to make little younglings if we aren't allowed to love?

Where do young hopefuls come from if not from jedi?
Why do the jedi pluck these youngsters from their families, for the greater good of the universe?
Some would say that's evil.

JediMaster12
01-11-2006, 12:44 PM
Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.
If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?

Cygnus Q'ol
01-11-2006, 01:26 PM
Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.
If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?

Sounds like a page out of Jolee's book.

I still wonder where the younglings come from.

JediMaster12
01-12-2006, 02:09 AM
"The Force is in all of us but for some it is barely but a measurable whisper" Bastilla

In some ways even you are more capable than a Jedi. You could survive where they could not simply because you don't hear the Force as they do. Kreia to Atton

JediMasterDeath
01-12-2006, 08:06 AM
Excellent Thread! UBER KUDOS TO GRAY ON THIS :D
This is the meat and potatos of the Star Wars Universe right here.

Now to answer this I must first answer what are the characteristics of a PERFECT JEDI? I don't care about what Mace has done, or Yoda, or Anakin, or Obi. WHAT DOES THE JEDI CODE SAY THE PERFECT FULL-ON JEDI SHOULD, IN THIS CASE, FEEL?

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.

Remeber, Obi-Wan is NOT "The Jedi" Anakin is NOT "The Jedi" they are single Jedi, a piece of a much greater whole, if you will. Thus you can't judge a whole by a single.

Now lets break down the Jedi Code
1. - There is no emotion; there is peace.
A. Emotion: Any strong "feelings." (forgiveness, love, and even pride. If they can't experiance pride, this would mean that arrogance should also then be unexperianed by a TRUE JEDI)
B. Peace: The absence of mental stress or anxiety.

2. - There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
A. This means they must be aware, never be unable to obtain knowledge
B. Knowledge: Experience with perception, learning, and reasoning.

3. - A. There is no passion; B. there is serenity.
A. They can't be intensely emotional.
B. Serenity: Free from stress, anxiety, or emotion.

4. - A. There is no death; B. there is the Force. (Heres a tricky one ;))
A. Death: End of life, departure from life.
B. Force: Physical energy or intensity, a powerful effect or influence.

5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. (Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it) The Jedi codes first line is "There is no emotion." Thus love is forrbiden. In the Sith Code it states "Peace is a lie, There is only passion, Through passion I gain strength." Some people say that this means that love is allowed by the Sith, and not by the Jedi. Wrong. Passion: A state of being intensely emotional, you can be passionate about manny things, not just love. To love someone or somthing shows a "weakness." Padme was Anakins weakness, and Palpatine used this to his advantage many times. At the end he lied to Darth Vadar, telling him he had killed Padme. Thus eliminating Vadars weakness. Sith do not tolerate weakness, and there for it must be eliminated.

Therefore the perfect Jedi would have no strong feelings, be absent of any stress of anxiety, would be experienced with perception, learning, and reasoning, and (This is only my opinon I supose) would not believe in death, but ever-lasting intense engery that has a powerful effect and influence over life. In my opinon these traits most imbody the Jedi Qui-Gon Jin.

Most people would say that Qui-Gon's decesion to make Obi promise to train Anakin was the down fall of the Jedi. Most also believe that Anakin was a false "chosen one"
However during the battle in the Second Deathstar, after Luke Skywalker had beaten Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker), Emperor Palpatine (Darth Sidious) struk down Luke. In the end as Palpatine was slowly killing Luke, Vadar became no more and it was Anakins love for his child that gave him the power to over-come the darkness in his heart and finally defeat Palpatine. Thus I believe it was truly Anakin Skywalker whom brought balance to the force, and defeated the last of the Sith. So I think Qui-Gon actually did know what he was doing. ^.^
(Once again this is only my opinon) Is this not in a way how Revan started as a Jedi, went to Sith, and then once again became a Jedi in defeating a Greater Evil? (For the LS atleast ;))

The Jedi are the ones whom attempt to bring balance to the force. These codes and rules they follow are to aid them in bringing Balance to the force, and to remind them of their true goal. Equilibrium. All survive as a whole to live in peace.

The Sith care not for balance, or being equal. When your a Sith your the strongest or your weak, your never equal. "The strong survive, and the weak die."

To conclude, as long as even 1 person will only believe that "The strong survive, and the weak die" equilibrium will be unatainable. When everyone can finally accept equilibrium shall it be in reach.
> . < Once again thats just my thoughts > . <

Cygnus Q'ol
01-12-2006, 11:07 AM
Good point, I never thought of it in quite that way. Love did, afterall triumph.

However, two things:
1) There are no guidelines in the jedi code of love and procreation. Anakin did this in secret and against the jedi teachings.

2) Did Qui-gon actually know what he was doing? Last he saw Anakin he was a boy, hardly touched by the darkside. He dies. Many years passed, then Anakin's fall. Then many more years pass as Anakin reigns as sith lord. Finally, he turns his back to Sidious to save his long lost son. Killing the master and himself, but not before redemption.

I seriously doubt Qui-gon saw all of this while stealing a dab of blood from a boy.

JediMasterDeath
01-12-2006, 11:29 AM
I would have too If at the end of Revenge of The Sith Yoda hadn't said that Qui-gon had become a force ghost ;) For all we know he was watching Anakin throught ep 2-6 ^.^ What if Qui-Gon hadn't told Obi to train Ani? Would Duke, Grievous, and Sidious have destroyed the Rebellion still? ;) Thoese are the questions that get you thinking ^.^ Qui-Gon believed the boy would forfill the phropecy, and I believe he did ;)
lol, I wasn't trying to add love as a Jedi code >>> 5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. >>>>>>>(Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it)<<<<<<<< Thats the only reason I mentioned it there > . < I for one can't really know If Qui-Gon would or wouldn't have truly know(Just my opninon ;)). But I do know he was determined to have Anakin trained as a Jedi, even if anakin was to old, even if it men't dropping Obi as an apprentice, even after the council forbid it, even at the very moment he was dying. He had to have known that somthing about that boy that everyone else didn't ;)

Servantoflight
01-12-2006, 12:18 PM
Well, ui-gon might have foreseen it. As in KotOR 2 Kreia said something about the force allowing you to 'see' into the future. (My memory might be a bight rusty) However, here is my view of the Jedi:

The Jedi are much like the church, the set up is perfect, the church is (supposedly) set up by people (long ago) who God talked to directly. Therefore, the church is perfect, the positions are perfect, and just because someone fills that perfect position does not make them perfect. The person can choose to do what they are suppose to do, or to abuse their positions.

1. The Jedi have a set of guidelines, like we have the bible (or whatever religion you practice) which we can choose to obey or not obey.

2. The amount of power each Jedi position has and the positions in the church are perfect. The people that fill those positions are not perfect and never will be, but some might start to believe that they are, and become blind to there mistakes and cannot fix them.

3. In the KOTOR games there was the 'fall of the Jedi', which I believe is the Jedi consul could not admit there mistake of (mutiple choice here)
-not explaining the plan to the Jedi who felt the need to save the innocent being slaughtered by the Mandalorians
-Could not come up with a plan in time and just covered their butts by saying they had a plan
-Thought the right thing to do was stay out of the fight, then that they should have gone to war to stop it, where too arrogent to see their mistakes and blamed it on those who went to war trying to save countless innocents. Therefore, starting (or not stopping) the Jedi Civil War.

Now my whole veiw of Jedi and their ban on love is this: If you love someone (spouse, or offspring) then when they are killed you feel anger and are more susseptable to the DS and revenge. The Jedi are there to help society, and if they allow themselves to love, then they will be bias, wanting to give more to there loved ones rather than a complete stranger. As such, love cannot exist without hate, and hate cannot exist without love. If you let one in, you let both in, and the Jedi (I think) would rather avoid the whole thing entirely, no love, no hate, no strong emotions. As an enemy could use those emotions against you, especially if you are allowed to love.

JediMaster12
01-12-2006, 05:26 PM
Yes there are guidelines for they Jedi but they are not perfect. Jolee says it in KOTOR. Love and passion are not the same thing, check out the OED meaning of love and passion.

Leaves the discussion table

By the way JediMasterDeath, I started this thread.

Master omega
01-12-2006, 06:55 PM
My oppion on this is we all have diffrent views on this i agree the perfect jedi would follow the jedi code to the letter. And that Anakin was in fact the chosen one in the end due to his love for his Son. So his love Was His weekness and then his strength. But i belive That The jedi order in the expanded universe has it right the most because They dont ban love relashoips Luke and his fellow masters are told to be always mindfull off their fellings and to take strenght from them. The old jedi order should have taken the same stand point in my oppion. And to be honest the old jedi did kind off almost love each other because that attachemnt for master and apprentince was vergin on this. (Agin in my oppion) They semed to gain strengh From this wich is an emotion.

P.s Watch Ep2 and listten carefully You can hear Qui-Gon Shouting anakin !!! When he lose it with the Sand people.

Jae Onasi
01-12-2006, 07:03 PM
(snipped) The Jedi are an unholy order. They are the evil that walks among us....We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.


Going philosophical here, and not trying to attack anyone personally, it just happens that jedi3112 did a nice job of summing up Sith views (which are not mine).

Well, let's take the Sith philosophy to its logical conclusion. If Sith are philosophically and genetically superior, then they should continue to purify their gene pool and become a Super-race by killing off anyone inferior. What's inferior? Anything that makes the race or empire function improperly is inferior. Anything or anyone that does not contribute to the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior. Anyone who doesn't agree with the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior (because if they truly believed, then they would agree). Anyone who is not liked/useful to his superior is inferior. Who determines what is superior? The guy at the top of the food chain--the Sith Lord. What does this lead to? A Sith Lord determining who and what is 'superior' (regardless of whether he's actually correct or not). Destruction of anything and anyone who does not contribute to the Sith Lord's wishes. Stifling any creativity (including that which could improve the empire or people in unique ways) if it does not conform to the Sith Lord's views or wishes. Conforming blindly to the Sith Lord's wishes, even if you know he's incorrect, for fear of being eliminated if you question his orders. Subjugation of entire races and planets. Destruction of anything the Sith Lord doesn't like or anyone who attempts to stop him. Desire to expand the empire by any means possible in order to gain more power over enemies, including enemies in his own ranks. Development of a police state to control those he has subjugated. Genocide, if the Sith Lord decides that it's in his personal (or his empire's) best interest.

The Jedi are meant to be the antithesis of this philosophy.

Do they always succeed? No, because they are imperfect beings just like everyone else (or, at least they're as imperfect as George Lucas writes into the script :) ). Both Jedi and Sith are blessed with incredible powers due to the Force. However, the Jedi choose to wield this power for the good of the galaxy, not for personal gain. They represent all that is good and right in the universe. Their goal is to root out and destroy evil, protect those who can't protect themselves, dispense proper justice, and foster a safe environment in which people can grow and develop. Because they are constantly required to mediate and/or fight in volatile or dangerous situations, they require a tremendous amount of training in order to wield their gifts for the good of the universe. They have to be skilled in diplomacy, politics, psychology of various races, history, strategy, tactics, and fighting if the need comes. They have to be intelligent enough to see all the various options and wise enough to discern which one is the correct option in any given situation. They have to handle their gifts with a great deal of responsibility, honesty, humility (arguably something missing in some of the masters in the movies), honor, and grace. Even though they control great power, they have to recognize that they are simply servants of the Force and those around them. The Jedi Order was created by imperfect beings, so it's not going to be perfect itself, although they are always well-intentioned. The Jedi is a group of beings who are trying to do their best to analyze and interpret any given situation and respond wisely in a way that is going to ultimately provide the most beneficial effects on the universe. The Jedi Order is meant to provide a framework in which a Force-sensitive person/being can develop his unique powers from apprentice through master in such a way that the Jedi hones his skills to the greatest degree possible while minimizing the corrupting influences of the dark side. While it is not always perfect, the Jedi Order's goal is to protect its own as much as the rest of the universe from the dark side. So, the ultimate Jedi is one who wields the Force with a great deal of strength, who is always seeking to make himself a better person, who attempts to make the lives of those around him more positive, and who does so in an honest and humble manner, knowing he is a servant of the Light.

Ok, enough philosophy for now! :)

Darth InSidious
01-13-2006, 04:05 AM
Good points. If people think the Jedi are slow to react, what about the Baran Do?

JediMaster12
01-13-2006, 02:13 PM
The Jedi look at the whole picture, the whole thing about the greater good. You Sith like to look at the here and now and not the future. That's why you guys are always dying; power but no longetivity.:p

Revan Skywalker
01-13-2006, 10:15 PM
The Jedi are flawed. The Sith are flawed. They both have weaknesses and strenghts. But in the end, both fail at different times. The Sith, the early Wars. The Jedi, Order Sixty-Six. You must not fear the dark side, use it, but keep your emotions in check. You must have a perfect balance between the two to be at peace, and to never have your Empire, or Order, get destroyed. The only beings who had this kind of serenity were.... Revan ( lightside ), Jolee Bindo, Klye Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Anakin Skywalker kind of had it, and the greatest of them all, Jacen Solo. He knew what the Force truly was, and recognized the advantages in wielding the Light and Dark Side of the Force. He was the perfect Force user.

Darth InSidious
01-14-2006, 04:54 AM
What about Yoda? Vandar Tokare? Obi-Wan? They all seemed pretty serene.

Revan Skywalker
01-14-2006, 10:06 AM
Obi-Wan and Yoda were pretty serene, yes, but were they wise, no. They could not sense the Sith threat until too late, much like the Jedi Civil War. As the prophecy of the one said, A chosen one will be born, and will tip the scales to balance, but only one will truly mourn. I got this from my brother, Steve. He works with Lucasfilm. He's a cameraman. Back to my point. The Jedi felt too safe. And they were all but conquered. This why Revan attacked the Republic. After the Mandalorian Wars, the Republic felt too safe. So Revan gave them a new threat. This kept them sharp and alert.

Master omega
01-14-2006, 01:25 PM
I see Why you would say that jacen Solo is the perfect jedi because he can see The advantage to use both side of the force. According to what weve read thats the only way the jedi were able to defeat the Vong. But In the Dark Nest books we read that Luke is trying to change this appion on the force To be more mindfull of the darkside. Because it caused the Fall off one off The jedi knights Alema Rar. And he is undoubtfully the gratested Jedi in the Expandend Universe (my Opppion). They have become to dependint on that attudde and become less mindfull off the darkside sway on them. Which is the gratest risk in this oppion.

Revan Skywalker
01-14-2006, 03:02 PM
Agreed.

Darth n00b
01-14-2006, 09:04 PM
While I were reading trough the thread I noticed a patern.The hypocrisy(?), the lies and the arogance comes from one group of Jedies, the masters, the powerfull and the respected.
Obi Wan, Yoda, Vrook, Bastilla...

While tho ones that can see the colours is the ones that have traveled into the twilight zone of the force, such as Jolee and Kyle.

And for keeping my self on topic:
I see the Jedies as galactic police, and kinda like a japanese fighting thingie.
The ninja's belived that they had to leave their emotions to be good ninjas, the name "ninja" comes from nin (The own heart pirced) and ja (human).
(Ninja's wearn't wariors, but more spies wich only killed when needed, or when the mission were assationation)

But enough of my half asleep ramblings...

BattleDog
01-15-2006, 11:08 AM
Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.

There is no death, there is the Force.

It doesn't say the light side of the Force

A true Jedi should be a servant of the Force, he does not seek to influence it or command it. He uses it in the way which it dictates. The Jedi are dedicated to bringing balance to the Force. Lucas has stated that Anakin brought balance to the Force not by reducing the number of Jedi but by finally destroying the Sith.

The Jedi serve the "light" because the darkness is easy and therefore apt to grow. The Jedi fight the dark side because if they don't it will win and the balance will be destroyed The dark side feeds off itself and grows stronger, the galaxey needs the Jedi to fight it.

So what is the dark side? Well the Jedi believe it is a corruption of the true Force and I am inclined to agree. The Force is nature and the dark side does not exist in nature, in fact the dark side is a manifestation of the Force twisted within an individual.

So if the Jedi are the guardians of the will of the Force why were they destroyed? They became arrogant, a trait common in Sith, a Jedi is suppossed to be in control of their emotions, they have them but they do not allow them to rule their thoughts or actions. Pride and arrogance are of the dark side, these began to seep into the Jedi philosophy and their power began to diminish.

How did the Jedi become arrogant, like anything of the dark side it was very easy. If a Jedi feels the Force and lets it guide him then obviously his every action is right and the will of the Force. Once a Jedi begins to think this way he rejects the possibility he could be wrong. Now he has pride and is arrogant.

What bothers me about TSL is that the Jedi there seem to have the same level of arrogance as in the prequels, even though en masse they didn't have it forty years ealier and are still rebuilding after the last Sith War. Interestingly enough the same level of arrogance doesn't seem to be present in KOTOR, even in Vrook.

Vaelastraz
01-15-2006, 11:39 AM
Well at least starwars.com claims there are 2 sides of the force: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/

[...]The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.[...]

Master omega
01-15-2006, 03:21 PM
We all no there is two sides two the force lets be honest my appion off the force is that is is basicly the power of life. Eg the two sides are life and death nether are inhertly evil they just are a part off it. and the jedi and sith teach and use both depending on there own indvidual values and oppions. ill explain what i mean The force rember has bein explained to use as part off life without the force there can be no life and as yoda told Anakin that if one die's not to fear or morn this because that person has become one with the force.So hince Two sides off the force.

Steve-O Kreesh
01-15-2006, 07:59 PM
I myself agree with Lucas's own view of the Jedi. The Jedi the galaxy's samurai, galactic sheriffs that help the weak and protect the innocent.
Now the Jedi follow the will of the force yet the Sith bend the force to their will. The rules of the Jedi are clear that attachments are forbidden, but secret relationships do happen within the Order. The exile admits to as much in certain conversation threads with the handmaiden. Not all Jedi that have lovers go darkside, look at Revan and Bastilla. In Anakin's case, his hunger to control life is what helped cause his fall. His greed to learn how to save Padme is what Sidious took advantage of.
I've read the New Jedi Order books too, and from them I think Force does not have a darkside. It's the darkside in all Jedi that cause them to fall. It's the individual that decides to do right or wrong and what they do after is what causes them to turn.
It's the individual personality of a Jedi that determines whether or not they are at risk of falling. Anakin showed those traits and that is what the council feared. Other Jedi have showed similar personalitys. Alema Rar, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade Skywalker, Zekk, and even Jaina Solo are some of those Jedi. All have turned darkside on some level at one point or another. Some were "saved" from the darkside, yet one is lost due to being corrupted by a more powerful influence.

Now this is just my personal view, but like in real life Jedi have to take responsibilty for their actions. Most do and seek the forgiveness of their peers. Some do not and choose not to. Those are the Jedi most at risk of turning "darkside".

RedHawke
01-16-2006, 01:44 AM
Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.
PnP RPG's are about good and evil, or even order and chaos, at their cores, when making an RPG system for something like Star Wars sometimes the source material has to be deviated from to make a playable game system.

Fact is there is a Dark side the movies tell us as much, especially the OT, so there must be a Light side. This is where the games come from, and it actually makes better sense than Lucas' "cover-up his plot mistake" ramblings on the subject.

mxsuprastang
01-16-2006, 02:58 AM
. . .But had the Council been more open minded and felxable with their code. . .

Can you be flexible and still have a code? That doesn't make much sense, it's like bending the rules for one person, it's not a good idea. Anakin knew what he was getting into when training to become a Jedi, he knew the rules, obligations and yet cried about the fact that he had to abide by them. Was he powerful, yes. But for some reason he believed he was an exception to the rules when he wasn't, like the "not being granted master on the council" scene. He believed that it was his right to be a master, even though he hadn't earned it from the right people. Exceptions can't be made in rules or a 'code' if you will, nothing good can come from it. Either obey the rules and accept the good consequences or disobey them and await your punishment.

Anyways, enough about that. The Jedi have their flaws, but nobody is perfect. I've always looked at Jedi as the "uncorrupted police" They go around the galaxy making sure that justice is intact. Justice isn't revenge and isn't one sided. The Jedi protect the galaxy form what it turned into during "The Dark Times" The Jedi ROCK!

JediMaster12
01-18-2006, 05:39 PM
Yes, Anakin's abilities made him arrogant.

Yes a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselevs even the older, more experienced Yoda

Revan Skywalker
01-18-2006, 06:10 PM
The grew too complacent. They thought that the Sith were extinct, instead of searching the galaxy for their arch enemies.

JediMaster12
01-19-2006, 11:31 AM
What do you do when you can't sense a threat? That was why Palpatine decided to strike when he did. He knew the Jedi couldn't sense it.

Revan Skywalker
01-21-2006, 10:20 AM
But they should have known not to trust their senses. Look at what haqppened during the Jedi Civil War. The Mandalorian Wars. The Great Sith War!

JediMaster12
01-21-2006, 11:43 PM
The Jedi prefer to look at the whole picture. There was more at stake. Don't you remember what Bastilla said about something lurking out there in the Outer Rim and beyond? Sometimes the best way to fight an enemy is to make the enemy show himself by drawing him out.

Steve-O Kreesh
01-22-2006, 09:29 AM
^ Yeah, but the remaining Jedi after the Jedi Civil War did just that and gathered on the Miraluka homeworld. Look what happened then. It would have been a better idea to do what they did after that disaster. Separate and go to places touched by war, Kavar's idea was a good one.

YertyL
01-22-2006, 03:02 PM
The Jedi prefer to look at the whole picture. There was more at stake. Don't you remember what Bastilla said about something lurking out there in the Outer Rim and beyond? Sometimes the best way to fight an enemy is to make the enemy show himself by drawing him out.
It seemed to me that the Republic would truly have fallen if Revan, Malak and the other younger jedi had not interfered (One dialogue option in KOTOR2 is (roughly) "The Republic would have fallen if Revan had not interfered. That's a fact!" (while arguing with Atris the first time)) and I do not think that the intention to lure an enemy out of the shadows justifies the sacrifice of millions or eventually billions of lives...

I am really not sure what would have been the correct choice, and I believe that this is the way the two KOTOR games put it - there is a lot of arguing about that point (even in KOTOR 1, e.g. the 2. Bastila - Carth conversation) without a definite answer.

Remember Jolee's words: The jedi have good intentions (at least most often), but they are not perfect ;)

Steve-O Kreesh
01-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Jolee was right, that's why a lot of people want him to be in the new Kotor as a force ghost. Even the best intentions can have tragic consequences. I think Kreia says that in TSL on Nar Shadaa. But also doing nothing but discussing what will happen if Jedi get involved in a matter is wrong too. If the council had done a better job at training the Jedi that left for the Mandalorian War, training them to turn away from conflict once a battle has been won. The exile had to learn that the hard way. When he witnessed all those deaths at Malacor V, he closed himself off the the Force. It took Kreia's training to bring him back to the Force. If more Jedi had gone through what he did, more would turned way from war and wouldn't have had followed Revan to war. By the time some of the Jedi council members realized this, the Jedi Civil War was already in full swing.

JediMaster12
01-23-2006, 11:35 AM
You may have a point there. I sense you may be a gray jedi or rather you see more gray than dark or light and both extremes annoy you :) Anyway that is valid. Even Zez-Kai Ell said something along the lines that perhaps the teachings had become arrogant and even the Order itself. My question to you is this: what about Kreia telling Atton that it is conflict that strengthens us while isolation weakens? Or does Kreia not count because of her hatred for the Force itself?

Steve-O Kreesh
01-23-2006, 04:41 PM
You are right JediMaster12, I am a Grey Jedi. You must be truly intune with the Force. :)

To answer your question, yes, Kreia was right in a way. Conflict can strenghten a Jedi, but only if that Jedi is strong enough deal with that conflict after the fact. A true Jedi can turn away from conflict once it has been dealt with. Kreia also said " What is a Jedi without the Force? Just a man, just a woman." Jedi are only human, and as humans, they are not perfect. That's why some Jedi can "walk within the light", and some (like me) become Grey Jedi. We are viewed as "misguided" by the Jedi council and the Sith see us as Jedi no matter what.
Then there are the Jedi that "fall to the darkside". They let conflict consume them and eventually feed upon it. IMO, those Jedi should have never been trained in the ways of the Force. Their masters should have seen the personality traits in those Jedi, and should have refused to train them. Like I said before, the Jedi council hasn't always done their job.

Isolation isn't the answer either. Jedi are supposed to help the weak and protect the innocent. If the Jedi didn't, we would be like the Baran Do or the Matukai. We are neither, WE are Jedi. We help those who are in need of us, whoever they may be.

And remember, Kreia didn't always hate the Force. She was a Jedi once and a Sith. Being cast out of both is probably the source of her hatred. ;)

Cygnus Q'ol
01-24-2006, 09:49 AM
How do we know that the Republic would have fallen if the young, restless jedi wouldn't have interfered at that particular time?

The Mandalorians had only taken three systems way out in the outer rim,
systems that weren't even apart of the Republic.
(Does anyone know which ones they were?)

The Mandalorians are masters at war, their culture is defined by it. It was a dangerously masterful stroke to lure the jedi out. A brilliant move, if you play Chess, Go, or Dijarik.

Unfortunatly for them, Revan was the one to answer the call.
I wonder, would things have been different if Kavar had been the one?

I also wonder what would have happened if the strongest and most talented of the jedi would have stayed behind and made a concerted effort with the Republic forces and the resources and approval of the jedi counsel.

Steve-O Kreesh, Why put the blame of jedi falling to the darkside on the masters? Masters aren't omnipotent. They can't see everything.

Look at Qui-gon Ginn.
Do you think he would have still had Annakin trained if he could see what was going to become of him?
If the masters can sense every little thing about a person, then why couldn't they sense Sidious standing right next to them? ...bit of a stretch.

Oh, and about Kreia.
I think Kreia's hatred goes a bit deeper. Kreia is tormented by her belief that she once was and still is (like all jedi) a slave of the force.
...and she is fatally jealous of the Exile's ability to not only live without it,
but become stronger for it.

JediMaster12
01-24-2006, 01:48 PM
You are right JediMaster12, I am a Grey Jedi. You must be truly intune with the Force. :)

To answer your question, yes, Kreia was right in a way. Conflict can strenghten a Jedi, but only if that Jedi is strong enough deal with that conflict after the fact. A true Jedi can turn away from conflict once it has been dealt with. Kreia also said " What is a Jedi without the Force? Just a man, just a woman." Jedi are only human, and as humans, they are not perfect. That's why some Jedi can "walk within the light", and some (like me) become Grey Jedi. We are viewed as "misguided" by the Jedi council and the Sith see us as Jedi no matter what.
Then there are the Jedi that "fall to the darkside". They let conflict consume them and eventually feed upon it. IMO, those Jedi should have never been trained in the ways of the Force. Their masters should have seen the personality traits in those Jedi, and should have refused to train them. Like I said before, the Jedi council hasn't always done their job.

Isolation isn't the answer either. Jedi are supposed to help the weak and protect the innocent. If the Jedi didn't, we would be like the Baran Do or the Matukai. We are neither, WE are Jedi. We help those who are in need of us, whoever they may be.

And remember, Kreia didn't always hate the Force. She was a Jedi once and a Sith. Being cast out of both is probably the source of her hatred. ;)

Yes, I am in tuned with the Force as my brother tells me. You are right about the Jedi. I have watched the prequels Ep 1-3 and I find myself noticing the arrogance of the Council concerning the Sith. I have no problems in being neutral when it comes to diplomatic affairs and seeing both sides but as a Jedi I need training. If you would become my master, I would accept your teachings. :) I know of a sacred river and clearing where ritual meditation is held by the hunters on my homeworld Avalon.

Steve-O Kreesh
01-24-2006, 02:55 PM
To Cygnus Q'ol: Are Jedi Masters perfect? No, far from it. But as a group, they can identify potential Padawans by using their other senses, their instincts. True Masters know that you can't always rely on the Force. As people they should have good judgement on who they should train as apprentices. As supervisor at a business, wouldn't you want the best people to do the job required? Yes.

Your question on Qui-gon is a good one. IMO, he was to focused on the here and now. He saw Anakin as the Chosen One, and at that point and time he saw fit to have Anakin trained. Did he see the risks? No, but the council did. Yoda himself sensed much fear in young Skywalker. Mace Windu was adament in refusing to train Anakin. They sensed something not quite right with Anakin, they were right to refuse to train him. It took Obi-Wan to promise Qui-Gon to train young Skywalker, when Qui-Gon was dying. Obi-Wan then threatened the council to train Anakin with out the council's approval, which forced their hand. They were not going to let a promising young Jedi like Obi-Wan leave the order. Only then did they agree to allow Anakin to be trained.

Now about Darth Sidious. There are techniques to allow you to close yourself off from the Force. These techniques effectively hide yourself within the Force. By focusing inward, you can mask your Force signiture. I believe Sidious used a something similar to hide himself from the Jedi. It must be a Sith technique I'm not familar with.

I agree with you on Kreia. But she also loved the exile for turning away from the Force and then becoming stronger for it. I agree she was jealous of the exile, but she also loved the exile for the same reasons.

To JediMaster12: I could take you on as an apprentice, but before we travel to Avalon, you must first meet me here on Onderon. There is much to learn here, as I have done myself in my solitude. :) Plus the nearby moon of Dxun has much offer as well in lessons of the Force. :)

Revan Skywalker
01-24-2006, 07:03 PM
You would be wrong in my opinion, Steve-o-Kreesh. The Jedi needed to be destroyed, so did the Sith, and Kreai did what needed to be done, not willingly, no, but the Force works in mysterious ways. The Force created her, it seems, to hate the Force, and to attempt to kill off the Jedi and the Sith. I am currently learning about the White Current,a different part of the Force, and it seems that if you master it, you could see clearly into the future. The Light and Dark sides allow you to see dimly, not clearly. Jacen Solo knew this, and I see him with higher respect than Luke Skywalker or Revan. Steve-o-Keesh, I will learn about the Force with you, if you will allow me to, because my view is imperfect. It always will be. But with further study, I may be able to grasp its full nature. My sig says May the Force guide you! because the Force is always with you,t hough it might not always guide you.

JediMaster12
01-25-2006, 11:24 AM
@Steve-O-Kreesh: I will travel there on my ship The LoreSeeker

@Revan Skywalker: Just remember the Force is in all of us. To be able to see the flaws is not a sign of clouded view. Remeber TSL how they were quick to punish the Exile. To me that holovid was not really a trial more like a character bashing. I guess I am us to a trial by jury kind of thing. What I saw there was nothing more than an attempt to get things done and over with.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-25-2006, 11:55 AM
I have a problem with the way the counsel went about the Exile's so called trial. Jedi Master12 is right. That really didn't seem like a trial.
They all ganged up on the Exile, spit their un-researched accusations, took the lightsaber, and sent him packing without so much as a explanation or goodbye.

(In the movies)The counsel on Coruscant seemed to at least try to understand the threats they faced before they went into action.
...sending Kenobi on fact finding missions like Geonosis and such.
Like finding Dooku and hunting down Grievious.

Why didn't they at least try to understand what happened with the Exile?
I may be wrong, but I don't think any of those masters were at Malachor.
Nor did they investigate afterwards.
It just didn't add up to what my thoughts on the intelligence of the counsel really was.

In KotOR they acted too slow and Revan could wait no longer. Either they really were acting too slow, or their teachings weren't good enough to have instilled enough discipline to check Revan's actions.

In TSL, they acted too fast without thinking.
...almost as if they were in fear.

What would Yoda have done with the Exile?
What about Windu? Would they have acted as brash and ignorant?

JediMaster12
01-25-2006, 01:52 PM
Also remember that Zez-Kai Ell said something along the lines insteading of trying to understand why the Exile did as he did they punished him instead. That sounded like regret and remember he said he was Jedi no longer. Could that be a hint that he took a leaf out of Jolee's book? What about Kavar? He knew about war himself having fought in what was it Exar Kun? Anyway Kavar seemed to understand better the choices the Exile made but he may have been driven by fear.

I think you were right in the fact that the Jedi may have acted in fear with the Exile. It seemed to show again at the final meeting on Dantooine. Fear does tend to make a person act rashly without weighing the consequences.

Steve-O Kreesh
01-25-2006, 04:29 PM
To Revan Skywalker: I'm sorry you disagree, but this is a forum, so I'm not surprised. :)
If you look at it from a certain point of view, Kreia did destroy the Jedi and the Sith. Kreia taught Revan, Sion, and Nihilis. All three killed many Jedi. She taught the exile, who effectively killed the Sith in known galaxy. He killed Sion and Nihilis and their followers. Kreia also corrupted Aeris, which the exile could choose to kill. Kreia herself killed the last three council members still alive. All that was left was the exile, the "Lost Jedi", and Kreia. It was up to the exile to start over, whether to rebuild the Jedi or the Sith was your choice.

I too hold much respect for Jacen Solo, he truly is what a Jedi is meant to be. He has an understanding of the Force. :)

JediMaster12
01-25-2006, 06:42 PM
I never thought of it that way Steve-O-Kreesh. Jacen Solo I'm guessing he was different from the start from his twin sister Jaina. From what I understand, he can see that there are no definite lines. Like you he sees more grey. As for Kreia, she was a manipulative witch trying to destroy the Force because she hates it yet she can't bear the thought of it being lost. Sounds like she has psychological issues and needs a therapist but how can someone be like that? Did it have to do with the betrayals of Sion and Nilhilis?

Revan Skywalker
01-25-2006, 07:20 PM
I still have much to learn, Steve-o-Kreesh. I ask you, may I become your Padawan? You seem to have some of the same views as me. And you are right, Jacen Solo knew that the Force did not have a light or Dark Side, it was just a metaphor. The Force users have a light and dark side. This is why I do not use the Force as my one only option. I use the White Current, Dathomiri Force spells, and the Force. You could teach me about the Force, and I could teach you about the Current and the Force Spells. (I don't know how to do smiley's so here it is. Smiley face.)

Steve-O Kreesh
01-25-2006, 07:49 PM
Well Jedimaster12, having her head bashed into a stone pillar didn't help with her psychological issues either. Or the shots to the abdomen or the choke hold Sion put on her too.
Was she manipulative? Yes. But calm yourself my apprentice, she was no witch. If it wasn't for Kreia 4000 years ago(as the time line goes), the Jedi would have died out long ago. She trained the exile and brought him back to the Force. She gave him the knowledge to rebuild the Jedi (or the Sith) and start a new Jedi order with what he (or she) learned from her. If it wasn't for Kreia, the Jedi order would have died on Peragus II. For that and that alone, do I respect her.

As for the council at the exile's trial, I have no respect for them at all. They sent the exile packing because Revan didn't come back to stand trial. The exile was the only one that did come back to face trial, unlike Revan. The exile was a scapegoat for Revan. They had no right to make the exile leave the order for doing what he believed in, protecting the the innocent. Then they betrayed him again, when they tried to strip him of the Force. They were afraid of him because of what he did and what he became. They thought him a wound in the force but they were wrong. He was the only hope for the Jedi and the Force. Was Kreia right in killing those Masters? No, but in your own words, she was a manipulative witch. ;)

I await your arrival to Onderon, my apprentice.

To Revan Skywalker: I would welcome you if you decided to join me and JediMaster12 for training. You may study and train with us on Onderon. I sense there is much for you to learn. No one's view of the Force is perfect. We are only human after all. Perhaps the time on Onderon will help you find what your looking for in the Force. But I must warn you that I will teach you as a Jedi teaches an apprentice. Unlike the Dathomiri, I am not an isolationalist. We will help those in need and protect others from harm. That is the way of a Jedi. :)

Revan Skywalker
01-25-2006, 08:09 PM
I will protect them too. All I am saying is that I focus on more areas than just the Light and Dark Sides of the Force users. I don't believe the Force has a Light and Dark Side. I am jumping into hyperspace right now, on my ship, the Truth. I will be on Onderon in two minutes. I have already built a lightsaber, so don't worry about that, Master. It has a blue blade, and a compact handle. I also carry a blaster. When we are done with training, you must come with me to Dathormir, where the Force whiches have many spells to teach you, such as a sphere of light. Then we must go to the Fallenasi, where they will give you the ability to see into the future brightly. a.k.a. my sig. Thank you for exeptinbg me, Master.

JediMaster12
01-26-2006, 11:02 AM
Yes Master Steve-O-Kreesh, I see that as well. She did bring the Exile back to the Force. I'm not sure about Master Vrook. He seemed a bit like Master Windu when he was adamant against training Anakin. There were times when you kind of liked him and other times when you lose respect for him, like he is so mired in his opinion. Maybe he is like that because he lost a padawan at Malachor like so many others. If that were the case, he would be the male version of Kreia except he has no hatred of the Force. Atris I thought was too rash, like she had a hatred for the Exile for not obeying the Council.
I believe the Jedi as guardians of peace and justice; they protect the innocent when able. I see that they are not perfect because I took a leaf out of Jolee's book about the concept of love how in the end it would save you. I think that is what made the Exile and Revan able to leave those they loved behind to protect them from a greater evil to come.
As for calling Kreia a manipulative witch, I was merely quoting Atton, but then again h was a strange character, even after the Exile trained him as a Jedi.
My astro droid tells me that we are coming up on Onderon in three standard hours. :)

Point Man
01-26-2006, 01:56 PM
I've been following this thread for some time, and now that I have my thoughts coalesced into something (hopefully) coherent, I think I can share them.

As has been previously stated, I believe Master Vandar's description of the Jedi as the "defenders of the galaxy and sworn protectors of the Republic" is a good starting point. However, that only describes the role they play, not "who they are." Republic soldiers also play that role, but they are not Jedi. The Jedi are people who are able to feel The Force and use it. They formed an order so that they could teach their ways and establish guidelines for the behavior of their members. Anyone who calls himself a Jedi, must accept the teachings of the Order and agree to live by them to the best of his ability. Does that mean you never vary from the Code? Certainly not. It means that you try to follow the Code, and when you do violate it, you feel remorse at doing so. If you take issue with something in the Code, you try to change it from within. That is why I dislike the term "Dark Jedi." If you are dark, you have rejected the teachings of the Order and are therefore no longer a Jedi.

Yes, that is a legalistic view, but I also believe you can be a Jedi in spirit if you feel The Force and use it and follow the Jedi teachings while not officially swearing loyalty to the Order. Much good can be accomplished by these individuals, as well. However, this is a dangerous path because having another to teach you and hold you accountable can help prevent you from straying to false teachings (the Dark Side).

While I believe the Jedi Order is a good insitution full of good people, I also believe the Order made some big mistakes. They became arrogant and underestimated the strength of those who used the Dark Side. Why did they not see the rise of Darth Sidious? They were not looking in the right places. They thought the enemy would fight them on their terms, not his. This is the classic blunder of almost every institution that gets overthrown. They also became too concerned with the preservation of their Order, rather than the protection of the galaxy.

However, I think the greatest mistake of the Jedi Order was their stubborn insistence upon avoiding relationships with others. Just because relationships bring entanglements, does not mean they must be avoided. Relationships can bring weakness, but they are also a source of great strength. Just ask any soldier, and he will tell you that he is often inspired to do things he never thought he could do because he wanted to protect those he loved and make them proud. That is where Anakin and Luke Skywalker finally brought balance. Luke used his relationships as a source of strength. In ROTJ, Luke says to the Emperor, "Your arrogance is your weakness." The Emperor responds, "Your faith in your friends is yours." That is where he was wrong, and why he ultimately failed. At the end, the love between a father and son prevailed over lust for power. It was that love that kept the Jedi Order from becoming extinct and did lead to the extinction of the Sith Lords.

JediMaster12
01-26-2006, 02:07 PM
I see that you follow some of Jolee Bindo's advice. You make a good point though about the Jedi and a soldier for the Republic with the defenders of the Galaxy. I often find myself saying such arrogance on the part of the Council. As we have heard from various others, the Jedi are not perfect; they are human, or whatever they are. I think the biggest debate is over the issue of relationships and love. I stick by what Jolee says and what you see to say too. I've seen it countless times where someone gets that last ounce of strength to triumph because of love.
I must sign off because I'm approaching Onderon.

Revan Skywalker
01-26-2006, 10:13 PM
I am looking forward to meet you, Jedi Master12 and Master Steve-o-Kreesh.

Steve-O Kreesh
01-26-2006, 10:46 PM
To jimbo fett 66: You are a very wise individual. You have a good grasp on what it means to be a Jedi. It is true that the Order was founded by people who wanted to feel and use the Force. But when we Jedi are not defending the galaxy, we must spend our time studying and learning more about what Force has to offer. There are many techniques to learn, almost too many to learn in one lifetime. And that is just the Jedi teachings. There are the teachings of the Baran Do, the Matukai, the Zeison Sha, the Jal Shey, and the Dathomiri to name a few. It is my belief that a person cannot resrict themselves to just the Jedi teachings. Like Jacen Solo, I believe Jedi must study with other orders in order to have a wider view of the Force. A diverse understanding will help every Jedi in the long run.
jimbo fett 66 I think if you ever decided to, you would make a very good addition to the Jedi order. I sense you have been through a lot in your life and that you try to follow many of the Jedi beliefs already. You will always be welcome to Jedi order if you choose to join us. :)

I must go now, my new apprentices are arriving to my location. I must go to Iziz spaceport to welcome them.;)

Revan Skywalker
01-27-2006, 10:11 AM
I am pleased to meet you, Master, in person. What is it you wish me to do?

JediMaster12
01-27-2006, 11:03 AM
Just remember the Jedi Code. Even Master Zhar said that they were to be used as a guide towards every decision a Jedi makes. We have basic guides, it just depends on our judgment, our choice. Choices decie where your path leads you. Only the journey is written, not the destination.

I await at Iziz and I'm not sure if the Port Master will give me a starport visa.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-27-2006, 11:36 AM
I once harboured the calm stoicism of the order. Once, long ago.
There was a time when I followed the whim of my masters without hesitsation.
...without thought. ...without conscience.

For an outsider, the connection I had with my masters could have easily been mistaken for love, for I would have given my life for theirs. As time went on, however, my eyes were open to the complacency and destructive self absorbtion I saw in the order.

With nothing more than a conversation and the relenquishing of my lightsaber, I left the order of my own accord and with no bad feelings. I am no longer a jedi, but I am an accomplished sabarist and force adept. I no longer hold all of the same ideals as the order, but I am not a sith. My connection to the force is as strong as it ever was. Does that make me a dark jedi?

I don't feel dark. I'm not evil. On the contrary, occasionally, I'll hire out and hunt sith. Unlike other masters of the force, a darkside presence hardly escapes my notice. It is a gift I have which helps me in my quests. Perhaps it's what keeps me from crossing over and into the darker realm. Some of the dreams I have are quite...

...anyway, I still have much to learn.

But, even as ignorant as I am, I still use what talents, skills, and force powers I've aquired to help those in thie galaxy that are less fortunate. What good is spending your life studying countless teachings if they are not used in preserving the qalaxy?

Jimbo fett 66 hit on a very good point. You don't have to be of the jedi order to lend a hand in defending those less fortunate in this galaxy. Soldiers, pilots, engineers, droids, and yes even civilians do thier part too.

I happen to be on Onderon for a conference. Perhaps we will run into each other. Perhaps not. I know you jedi usually travel alone, or in pairs. But if you ever need assistance tracking or hunting sith, I am at your service.
...FOR THE REPUBLIC !

JediMaster12
01-27-2006, 11:54 AM
I see you may be a fan of Trask. I said it as well that I saw the point on you don't have to be a Jedi to help others. In a book I read it mentioned that those younglings who weren't chosen as padawans were sent to help others like at the Agri-Corps project on Bandomeer. I believe Kreia said that every action sends repercussions across the Force, touching all that it contacts with. Maybe the Jedi see this repercussion more clearly, I don't know.

Aristotélēsticus
01-27-2006, 12:33 PM
I haven't read the whole thread so I might mention something has been said….

I agree that the Jedi code and the sith code have flaws, but that’s the point of it, I mean that there are no perfect things in life and so are these teachings…

The jedi: they say that they are the guardians of the galaxy and protectors of the republic, well that’s foolish because the republic got them at last, so the things they were defending are proved to be wrong, I know that the sith were ruling by that time, but it is really a foolishness to protect a system based on politics which based on return on lies and cheatings, and the last two are the way of the sith, so we see that this cycle will lead us to a dangerous info : the Jedi are protecting the sith…

Another thing, in the conversation between Obiwan and Anakin, the last one said "if you are not with me then you are my enemy" and Obi responded "only a sith deals with absolutes" which is an absolute statement itself…and in another part of their battle Anakin said "from my point of view the jedi are evil" and Obi responded "then you are lost" and this is another absolute statement…not just that the idea of evil and good, is an absolute idea, so the whole absolute thing is wrong.

The sith: they are living only to have more power, greed is their way and death is their fate, for none can last in power forever, and that’s a flaw, they hate and hate and hate…and that will lead them to nothing, they are strong and they might be stronger than the jedi, but they will always lose because they don’t love eachothers, if they unite they would have destroyed the jedi, that’s why the jedi order lasted for years, because they don’t depend on one master, while the sith depend on one and only one, the dark lord of the sith, which means that they will fall right after the fall of this lord.

The jedi are arrogant, yes that’s true and the sith are stupid because they think that they are clever while they fight eachothers and that's not cleverness, so I will form my own order based on my own ideas, I am with the shadow side.

JediMaster12
01-27-2006, 06:28 PM
Ah hard to see the darkside is. Maybe you would be better off training on Onderon. The grey Jedi as mentioned by my master are seen as misguided but the sith see them as Jedi. The grey Jedi see neither light nor dark. Think of Jacen Solo. He could see that there is no lightside or darkside of the Force, the Force is the Force but there are lightside and darksides of a person. It is the person, not the Force, that the Republic has been broken and rebuilt with. TSL was trying to emphasize that it was choice because every decision we make sends repercussions across the galaxy. That is a lesson to think on.

Aristotélēsticus
01-28-2006, 04:22 AM
thats the point i wanted to clear...the force is one but we defer, but i dont agree with you that a shadow (gray) cant see light nor dark...my openion that he know themboth and see them both and thats why he stays neutral for he knows that if he choosed to enter one of these sides he will be consumed by it forces which will make him forget about himself and the fact that every person has two sides within him...

Point Man
01-28-2006, 10:25 AM
To jimbo fett 66: You are a very wise individual. You have a good grasp on what it means to be a Jedi.
Thank you. I cannot tell you how much that means to me.
jimbo fett 66 I think if you ever decided to, you would make a very good addition to the Jedi order. I sense you have been through a lot in your life and that you try to follow many of the Jedi beliefs already. You will always be welcome to Jedi order if you choose to join us. :)
Thank you again. I have wanted to become a Jedi Knight ever since my junior high school days, when I first saw Star Wars in the theaters nearly thirty years ago.

Steve-O Kreesh
01-28-2006, 04:54 PM
Sorry I haven't posted lately, I've been busy training my apprentices. :)

To Korfreedonn The Ecclesiastes: If you haven't done so, please read this thread in it's entirety. If you do, you will understand my own beliefs and those I try to teach my Padawans. I am a Grey Jedi, not in the highest standing with the Jedi council. I serve the Order & the Force, but not the council. They see me as misguided with my views and see me as a sort of troublemaker. ;) You may not agree with me and that is fine (this is a forum after all!). But I urge you to read the entire thread before you post again, this has been a very interesting topic to discuss. :)

To Revan Skywalker: Your first lesson is to join JediMaster12 and seek the beastriders. They have taught me some very useful things about Onderon. The lessons they teach you are essential in learning later lessons with me. Listen and do as they, and treat them with the same respect that you do me.
May the force be with you and guide you, my apprentice.:)

Aristotélēsticus
01-30-2006, 12:49 PM
Thanks steve, you have a great ideas but its not similar to mine (well most of it)...you work for the order and the force...i work not for an order, i am alone and i want to keep still in this way, now i want to master the force in my solitude and after then...who knows i might join you...

JediMaster12
01-30-2006, 02:52 PM
Korfredonn The Ecclesiastes, there is much to learn of the Force and the Jedi. When a Jedi interacts with other people, they learn much too. You learn how the galaxy is formed through all individuals. The beastriders are ineresting people. They spend much of their lives trying to tame the beasts of Onderon, considering they once lived in Iziz. I remember what Kreia told Atton that he could survive in place where Jedi couldn't simply because they don't hear the Force as he does. Interesting no?

Steve-O Kreesh
01-30-2006, 06:33 PM
How true you are my apprentice, but if Korfredonn seeks solitude in order for a better understanding of the force, then he may find the answers to the questions he has. Remember that I myself sought solitude here on Onderon before I took you on as an apprentice. I was able to find many answers to the questions I had, and I see no wrong in someone who follows a path that I once traveled myself. :)

To Korfredonn: May the force be with you and guide you. I hope you find the answers you seek in the Force. If you decide to join me and my apprentices on Onderon, I think I'm going to have to build an enclave for those who wish to study with me. ;)

Aristotélēsticus
01-30-2006, 06:38 PM
thanks but i'm not thinking of joining anyone now...maybe later...i might be away but i am near...

Revan Skywalker
01-30-2006, 08:12 PM
JediMaster12, I am ready for the quest. Are you?

RedHawke
01-31-2006, 12:57 AM
Just an FYI people, we have a Roleplaying Forum (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=395), that would be better suited for this Master and Apprentice type of roleplay. ;)

JediMaster12
01-31-2006, 01:56 PM
Sorry about that. To get back on track, the Jedi are people who can wield the Force, so do the Sith. It all comes to how you use your power. Any takers?

@Revan Skywalker: send me a Private Message about training.

Dylan Klay
02-01-2006, 07:35 AM
There is truth to all. In all things, there is perception. You must make sure that, in your effort to protect all that is good and wholesome, you don't go too far into the otherside of the ditch. Is it wrong to love someone and be with them, no, it's not. But to allow them to control your actions, that's wrong. Some find strength in relationships, some, weakness.

In Anakin's case, he thought that the Galaxy owed him one. Maybe he started out as a slave, but that didn't mean that the Galaxy belonged to him. I have a really hard time with people who think it's their "divine" right to own and control everything. Everyone is responsible for their destiny, their choices are what makes them light or dark...or grey ;) I walk in the light, but I'm not blinded by it. You must see things from everyone's point of view to find out where the truth lies.

However, I do believe that some things are universal. Everyone has a right to live, a right to make a good, honest living. However, I'm not blinded in thinking that this is the case. As it's been said in many times before, "Peaceful people can sleep well at night, knowing that rough men (and women ;) ) are willing to do violence on their behalf."

The Jedi got too narrow minded. The sith, feel only for themselves. I agree with the Jedi more than the Sith and I'll stand against the darkness till I become One.

JediMaster12
02-01-2006, 11:48 AM
So you believe in certain inalienable rights and the whole concept of divine right is nonsense. To that I agree. I believe the Jedi were blinded by their role in the Republic but also by their arrogance which allowed the Sith to take over and create the Empire. We all have our feelings of patriotism and standing for what we think is right and the Jedi had their good intentions but at times they were completely wrong in spite of it. I will go far to say that at times it's the Grey Jedi that seem to get the picture, the whole picture, better than the Jedi Council. Maybe it's just because I can follow through with Jolee Bindo.

Aristotélēsticus
02-01-2006, 06:43 PM
I think that this is our believe Potentium (http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Potentium)

JediMaster12
02-02-2006, 12:51 PM
So Potentium is like being a Grey Jedi? That was my understanding.

Aristotélēsticus
02-02-2006, 12:55 PM
yes it is

arvik
02-03-2006, 09:46 PM
Just like Anakin said it, in my point of view the jedi are evil

Master Kavar
02-03-2006, 10:42 PM
Just like Anakin said it, in my point of view the jedi are evil

Then you are truly lost. :ben:

JediMaster12
02-03-2006, 11:55 PM
Yes, but then what is truth, nothing more than a point of view. Truth is an illusion to create stability and security. Truth is a lie. Is he truly lost? To be lost only means that something is to be found.

firehead2591
04-24-2006, 07:21 PM
the jedi code is the biggest peice of crap i've ever heard. no showing emotions, because showing emotions is a weakness and trying to gaurd against you hearst desire such as romantic love. They are like robots with lightsabers....not very happy people i'm guessing....being taken away from their families and discouraged to see them ever again. I would hate to be a jedi. on the other hand i would like to weild the force though. if i were in the fantasy universe of star wars i would beleive in pontenium or whatever he said being neutral is a good thing in my POV because judging a situation is much easier from a neutral stand point, easier to choose what is more productive better for the long run.... i would rather help a hobo get a job then giving him some money. and sometimes doing the politically "wrong" thing actually helps you more than the politically "right" way

Darth Manus
04-30-2006, 08:17 PM
To me, the Jedi are mostly people who try to handle their power in a responsible way while seeking to help those around them. However, I feel that the version of their Code seen in the KOTOR games is unhealthy, and could probably cause mental instability. In Revan's time, they seem to be a rather secluded organization, shutting themselves away from the rest of the galaxy. They seem to be getting more self-centered and excessively cautious, perhaps because they fear change. Also, their Code promotes the complete suppression of emotions, the avoidance of attachments and an alienation from one's family. It is my opinion that they fear emotions, and perhaps they have difficulty dealing with them. Another, more sinister theory could be that they have established all these rules in order to keep their apprentices under their complete control, isolated from any outside influences. Also, and despite their Code, some Jedi become arrogant, self-righteous and indifferent to other people's problems.

Revan Skywalker
05-02-2006, 11:25 PM
I have discovered the full truth. This truth: the Jedi and Sith are not really Jedi or Sith at heart. It is their ideals, people. The Force does not take sides with one or the other, it simply exists. Every Jedi, including the great Bindo and Jacen, the two most grey Jedi the galaxy have ever known... has never known the truth. They are stuck to their ideals, and grey Jedi are no different. The seek a balance between the too empty Jedi and the too emotional Sith. Both have disadvantages. The Jedi are supposed to ahve no emotion, and this makes the Jedi look evil, for sitting on their butts all day and mediatating. The Sith like emotions, and they allow them too much, so they throw fits easily and people get hurt. This makes the Sith look evil. In the end, both are truly evil because they cannot grasp the fact that they should not interfear with the Force's plans. If a war starts, it's the Force's will. If the galaxy gets destroyed, it's the Force's will. They have every right to defend themselves, but no right to interfear with the highest force in the universe. It is for this reason that they continue to fight each other. They can't grasp the truth. Only a Jedi Master named Qui-Gon Jinn did. He knew to let the Force take him where it would, and he let happen what would happen. He was not always this way, but I assure you, he finally got it, as have I. Whether you will is up to you. Most will continue to argue about the funadmental conflict of the universe. Light against Dark. Good against Evil. But doing this at all is evil, becuase you are innterupting the flow of life.

Darth InSidious
05-03-2006, 03:12 PM
Yes, but then what is truth, nothing more than a point of view. Truth is an illusion to create stability and security. Truth is a lie. Is he truly lost? To be lost only means that something is to be found.

Tell me: If I steal your car, and tell you I didn't, am I telling the truth? After all, truth is an opinion.

ch0g0nda
05-03-2006, 11:31 PM
The perfect Jedi is one who acknowledges the darkness as a part of the balance that they try so hard to preserve.

The perfect Jedi is one who wouldn't have treated Anakin's dark outbursts like they would simple growing pains.

The perfect Jedi, however, doesn't really exist. Grey Jedi are the closest to 'perfection.' They're not dogmatic pacifists or psychopaths.

Uthar Wynn, always struck me as the grey Jedi type - despite the Sith teachings. He was always aware of the risks someone in his position was exposed to. Despite this, he was still a teacher. If not for what would have had to been considerable darkness in his soul (for he was the leader of the Sith academy) I think he would have made one hell of a powerful grey Jedi.

Luke Skywalker's, adventures after the Battle of Yavin elevate him to the kind of persona that would fit my definition of 'perfect Jedi.' At one point he even gave into the Emperor and served the dark side. Very close to 'perfect.' He had the same kind of attitude Jolee, had, but was considerably more powerful; excellent!

Darth Manus
05-04-2006, 03:10 AM
One thing is following the will of the Force, another is being completely controlled by it. Kreia hated the Force because of the way it would manipulate all being and "let millions die just to achieve some measure of balance". If the Force is in all living things, as some Masters have stated, then the logical thing for a Jedi to do would be promoting life, nurturing it, protecting it.The problem with the Sith is that they subvert the Force, using its power for their own petty ambitions. They don't care how much destruction they cause. I don't know if there's such thing as a perfect Jedi. Some people would probably try to achieve the best possible result by any means necessary, but would that be the right thing? I'll use one of my experimental TSL characters as an example: he brought about the best possible outcome for each of the planets, but still wiped out the Masters, and he could be violent and darksided. He wiped out the scavengers in the ruins of the Enclave when they disrespected them, and offed a certain thief during the moisture vaporators incident. He also did some tampering with a certain will, to keep an unworthy, greedy scavenger from getting her hands on Jedi artifacts. In Nar Shadaa, he wiped the floor with all the thugs who defied him, and in that part where you run into a bunch of them threatening a man, he forced them to jump off the platform.

ch0g0nda
05-04-2006, 07:35 AM
^Your point is so unfathomable. What are you trying to get across? (Same question to you, Revan Skywalker).

William Petersen says: Pick one point, then try to make it. And for the love of god use paragraphs.

Anyway, this thread is really starting to lose it's focus. We're supposed to be discussing each other's views on what would constitute a 'perfect Jedi;' not pick out the ever obvious flaws attached to following any creed.

Of course the self destructive path of the Sith is greatly flawed - we know already, the chaos resulting in the 'one master, one apprentice' system outlines that beautifully.

And as HK has pointed out every time I've played through TSL: The Jedi leave themselfs far too vulnerable by putting the problems of the entire galaxy before their's. Yes the Clone Wars were important and their role was vital, but; Count Dooku, told Obi-Wan, that the Republic was already under the control of the Sith Lord while on Geonosis. The ignorance of the council up untill just before the Battle of Coruscant was what ultimately sealed the Order's fate.

But none of this is the point. We're here to rattle on about what would make a Jedi 'perfect.'

Darth Manus
05-04-2006, 10:07 AM
Mental stability is one thing. You get Jedi going psycho left and right, and the Sith are crazy and proud of it. You also need someone who isn't an extremist. Take a look at Jolee. Instead of leading a sheltered life, like those of the Order, he experienced things for himself and drew his own conclusions. He doesn't go around lecturing people on what he thinks they should do. So the perfect Jedi is someone experienced, flexible, mentally stable and true to principles he can live with.

JediMaster12
05-04-2006, 02:08 PM
After all, truth is an opinion.
Exactly.

@Revan Skywalker: what is evil then. Nothing more than a point of view. What separates the Jedi and the Sith is CHOICE. The ability to make a concious decision separates those who gain power for themselves and those who gain power for the use of everyone. Yes power does corrupt; we've seen it.


By the way, I am surprised that this thread was revived. I had forgetten

Revan Skywalker
05-04-2006, 10:22 PM
Nope. Evil is doing bad things.

JediMaster12
05-05-2006, 12:41 PM
Then what do you call the Jedi killing? They say it is for the greater good yet it is a bad thing. So in a way, the Jedi are evil because their actions are bad.

Non-false Jedi
05-06-2006, 11:07 AM
They are Guardians of Peace and Justice. Although they have an irritating tendancy to be arrogent. And then there is the issue of power corrupts, which seems to have claimed many a Jedi. Their aim to be calm level headed and Serene is noble and smart, but sometimes i think they handle the dogma is a little too authoritarian which might cause problems with the knights. But i think some of the wiser ones are the true uncorrupted champions...we don't seem to see a lot of them though...i guess its more exciting to have War in the galaxy...i suppose its hard to be peaceful and succesful in a franchise called Star WARS.

JediMaster12
05-06-2006, 12:45 PM
The Jedi are fools and arrogant to boot. They may be the guardians of peace and justice but who are they to determine what is the greater good? The Sith on the other hand care nothing for others and are obsessed only with gaining power. Both are evil influences. The lesser of the two seems to be the Jedi.

Non-false Jedi
05-06-2006, 01:22 PM
Who is anyone to determine the greater good? Sombody must make decisions. They are supposed to work with the Republic anyway.

KyleOfHarpenden
05-06-2006, 01:44 PM
the jedi are evil and good its a point of view like in ROTS 'from my point of view the jedi are evil' that shows that its all down to choice the sith may want greater good but in a different way they think there going to do the greater good its very confusing. Take like Hitler for example i dont think he though he was doing bad things but everyone else did in a way.

ch0g0nda
05-07-2006, 02:27 AM
I'm thinking the way the entire galaxy celebrated the death of the emperor at the end of ep.VI shows that the Sith's view of what's 'good,' doesn't mesh with just about everyone else's.

JediMaster12
05-07-2006, 02:45 AM
Duh because it is all based on opinion!!

ch0g0nda
05-07-2006, 03:30 AM
Ugh, yes, just because a person is entitled to their opinion doesn't mean that whatever they think is right.

Good and evil aren't matter's of opinion when you're talking about extremes. There are criteria to guide you with such things. We can't start making up the definitions of words... What the Sith do, evil. The Jedi, good.

Or I'll take some liberties and make up words; the Sith, drexdelzz! The Jedi, molinvians.

IMO that's what they are, drexdelzz's and molinvians!!1

Pabby
05-07-2006, 06:38 AM
I believe in the old jedi code, through emotion comes irrationality, and that leads to anger and hatred and such, with attatchment comes the anger at the possibility of losing that which you are attatched to.



"You must train yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose"

playloud
05-07-2006, 04:28 PM
I believe in the old jedi code, through emotion comes irrationality, and that leads to anger and hatred and such, with attatchment comes the anger at the possibility of losing that which you are attatched to.



"You must train yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose""I don't see points on your ears boy, but you sound like a Vulcan" - Dr. McCoy

Prime
05-08-2006, 11:26 AM
Remember, the Jedi at the end of the OR had the rules they did because of their past experiences, not just because of blind idiologies. The Post-ROTJ Jedi have good examples of what bad things happen when they let themselves do whatever they want.

JediMaster12
05-08-2006, 11:48 AM
Yeah look at Alema in the Dark Nest Trilogy.
Still in terms of good and evil, you can define something evil like killing is bad. If you look at it philosophically, you could say that the JEdi are evil for killing. What defines the limit/morality?

Revan Skywalker
05-08-2006, 06:46 PM
JediMaster12, you are right in my point of view. The Jedi are the guardians of what they tthhiinnkk is peace and justice. Only the New Republic and Galactic Alliance Jedi know this, though Bindo came close. It's all POV, people.

shinyjedi
05-09-2006, 02:09 AM
Okay, I read most of the first two pages and took the thread up again after the jump, so I might have missed somebody making my point. On the other hand, it's still my point, and that's the point of the thread, right? So here's my take on the jedi: :slsaber:

First off, I think the system cycles, like climate change. KOTOR and TSL take place at the very end of a cycle, when the jedi and sith are at their farthest extremes (like the late stages of something being run through a centerfuge) The sith use the power of emotion like a crutch and the jedi fear it like a plague. Over time, the codes have morphed to become what we see in the academies. At this point in the cycle, the orders collapse. :toilet1:
At the end of TSL (and ep VI) the jedi order is reborn, resurrected by those who realize that hiding from temptation is no defense whatsoever when it eventually ambushes you. To be able to control emotion rather than be controlled by it takes practice and experience; preferably while being guided and protected by somebody stronger and more experienced, and who cares about you. :wan:
The order grows, guided by these powerful individuals (more powerful because they neither fear nor allow themselves to be conquered by emotion)
Over time, jedi fail and fall. It's inevitable. Not every practitioner can handle power correctly, and there are those who initially seem stronger than they are. Not all jedi fall, of course, but enough do. As more and more Jedi fall over time, those jedi remaining, and perhaps the aging jedi who now rule, become nervous ("them young whippersnappers cain't take it like we could when we was young! We'll have to keep them on a tighter leash, since they's so weak!") and the long slow tumble into the centerfuge begins again. :lsduel:

In the end, my take on jedi depends on what era the jedi exist in.
The order in the time of the Mandalorian wars was so caught up in their power and the consequences of it, that they had become paralysed. They'd have sat and watched the galaxy ripped to shreds rather than risk the butterfly effect. Kreia had that one pretty bad too. At some point, worrying about far-flung repercussions becomes obsession, and is worse than ignoring consequences entirely. For these characters, I have little but contempt (yeah, Vrook, I'm talking to you! You weasel! :hatchrun: )

Although it hasn't really been shown, I believe that the jedi of the post TSL era (assuming LS play) would have been stronger and more balanced, and truer to the spirit of what the jedi were meant to be; guardians of justice and right. Likewise those jedi after Ep VI--as opposed to the TAs who let the empire be born out of the republic rather than learn to deal with temptation instead of hiding from it. (Although Yoda might have figured things out just before he transcended) :yoda3

Prime
05-09-2006, 09:50 AM
Yeah look at Alema in the Dark Nest Trilogy.
Still in terms of good and evil, you can define something evil like killing is bad. If you look at it philosophically, you could say that the JEdi are evil for killing. What defines the limit/morality?The Jedi are not creatures of morality, and do not define their actions as such one way or the other.

Revan Skywalker
05-09-2006, 07:16 PM
The Jedi do what they think is right, though it is not always right. The Sith, well, they wwwwwaaaaaannnnnnnnttttt to do bad stuff.

DarthDeceptus
05-09-2006, 11:20 PM
The Jedi do what they think is right, though it is not always right. The Sith, well, they wwwwwaaaaaannnnnnnnttttt to do bad stuff.

Well, both do stuff that is good for themself :)

Revan Skywalker
05-10-2006, 06:32 PM
Correct.

Steve-O Kreesh
05-14-2006, 07:50 PM
I could go on about my own opinion about the Jedi, but I've said my peace on the other pages of this thread.

No use in beating a dead horse! :)

But if others want to debate this topic, I'll keep my eye on this thread.

JediMaster12
05-15-2006, 12:28 PM
As well as I. What did I start here? :lol:

xides
05-22-2006, 08:03 PM
I find that the Jedi are much to stict with there view of the force but the sith are far to open with it. There needs to be a line drawn. Were that line is draw is fully the choice of the person. People like Jolee Bindo, Kyle Katarn or Jacen Solo would tap into the "Dark side" to help people. Others like Anakin Skywalker orginaly excepted the dark side to help his wife but then he turned right around and began slaughtering the jedi and anyone else that stood in his way. If you ask me the jedi of prequal era could have benifited greatly if they had a "Grey Jedi".

JediMaster12
05-22-2006, 08:11 PM
Where would you draw the line though?

Revan Skywalker
05-22-2006, 08:36 PM
I don't know about everyone else, but I would draw the line between good and evil. Period, dot. Good=save people from towering building. Evil= Watch people and laugh. Grey= laugh and pull them away from harm. You see, the Dark Side of the Force is evil, but the powers aren't. It's how you use the power of the Force. For instance, let's say you use a "light side" power to heal a wounded Sith while another is about to kill a helpless baby and woman. Or, let's say you use a "dark side" power to shoot lighting out of your hand (though Luke can make his own kind of good lightning) and overload a power conuit, therefor making a door break but causing no harm to living sentients. See what I mean?

xides
05-22-2006, 08:41 PM
I would draw the line closer to the Jedi theory because i respect what they are doing, i just find that they are to strict in there beliefs.

Arátoeldar
05-22-2006, 10:30 PM
Okay, I read most of the first two pages and took the thread up again after the jump, so I might have missed somebody making my point. On the other hand, it's still my point, and that's the point of the thread, right? So here's my take on the jedi: :slsaber:

First off, I think the system cycles, like climate change. KOTOR and TSL take place at the very end of a cycle, when the jedi and sith are at their farthest extremes (like the late stages of something being run through a centerfuge) The sith use the power of emotion like a crutch and the jedi fear it like a plague. Over time, the codes have morphed to become what we see in the academies. At this point in the cycle, the orders collapse. :toilet1:
At the end of TSL (and ep VI) the jedi order is reborn, resurrected by those who realize that hiding from temptation is no defense whatsoever when it eventually ambushes you. To be able to control emotion rather than be controlled by it takes practice and experience; preferably while being guided and protected by somebody stronger and more experienced, and who cares about you. :wan:
The order grows, guided by these powerful individuals (more powerful because they neither fear nor allow themselves to be conquered by emotion)
Over time, jedi fail and fall. It's inevitable. Not every practitioner can handle power correctly, and there are those who initially seem stronger than they are. Not all jedi fall, of course, but enough do. As more and more Jedi fall over time, those jedi remaining, and perhaps the aging jedi who now rule, become nervous ("them young whippersnappers cain't take it like we could when we was young! We'll have to keep them on a tighter leash, since they's so weak!") and the long slow tumble into the centerfuge begins again. :lsduel:

In the end, my take on jedi depends on what era the jedi exist in.
The order in the time of the Mandalorian wars was so caught up in their power and the consequences of it, that they had become paralysed. They'd have sat and watched the galaxy ripped to shreds rather than risk the butterfly effect. Kreia had that one pretty bad too. At some point, worrying about far-flung repercussions becomes obsession, and is worse than ignoring consequences entirely. For these characters, I have little but contempt (yeah, Vrook, I'm talking to you! You weasel! :hatchrun: )

Although it hasn't really been shown, I believe that the jedi of the post TSL era (assuming LS play) would have been stronger and more balanced, and truer to the spirit of what the jedi were meant to be; guardians of justice and right. Likewise those jedi after Ep VI--as opposed to the TAs who let the empire be born out of the republic rather than learn to deal with temptation instead of hiding from it. (Although Yoda might have figured things out just before he transcended) :yoda3

Excellent thread Ladies and Gentlemen.

I would say long with shinyjedi come closest to my thoughts on the Jedi. I hated Vrook from the get go soly because the arragont ass Ed Asner playing his voice.

Lord Fraybin
05-26-2006, 03:50 PM
I'm curious - if Anakin was 'The Choosen One' and was supposed to bring balance to the force, yet the Jedi Masters could not detect the Sith presence, and even displayed surprise that a Sith might even exist, then how exactly did they expect this balance to arrive???

Balance means all sides are equal. Does it not?
If they were ignorant of the SITHs presence, yet thought Anakin was supposed to bring balance, what exactly did they think that meant????

The complete and utter erradication of the DarkSide of the force is NOT balance.
You cannot have Day without Night.

So - while I fully support the Jedi code, I'd have to say that particular crop of Jedi Masters were a bit lacking in deductive reason.

JediMaster12
05-26-2006, 04:18 PM
Their arrogance blinds them and they probably never saw it coming. You see it throughout the movies if you watch their expressions and not just listen to the dialogue.

Lord Fraybin
05-26-2006, 04:40 PM
Their arrogance blinds them and they probably never saw it coming. You see it throughout the movies if you watch their expressions and not just listen to the dialogue.

8-)

You sure that wasn't George's poor directing abilities??

I mean - we got Star Wars: Awesome, ground breaking.

Empire Strikes Back - darker, better, more entertaining....

Then?? Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks??

Honest to God - after watching The Empire Strikes Back, NOBODY would have guessed George was planning on a visit to Super Cheese Ave.

Point Man
05-26-2006, 10:05 PM
Balance means all sides are equal. Does it not? (snip)The complete and utter erradication of the DarkSide of the force is NOT balance.
You cannot have Day without Night.
This is a common error people make when they think of scientific balance instead of spiritual balance. Bringing balance to The Force means restoring peace and calm, not making good and evil equal.

Dark Lord Maul
05-31-2006, 10:06 AM
The jedi like the sith are both a means of existance for each other without jedi there can be no sith and vise versor. so if you ask me the jedi fuel the hatred of the sith through there existance, and they fear the sith for tapping into a side of the force that they could never understand. in conclussion the jedi and sith are selfish ego maniacs.

Prime
05-31-2006, 12:16 PM
I'm curious - if Anakin was 'The Choosen One' and was supposed to bring balance to the force, yet the Jedi Masters could not detect the Sith presence, and even displayed surprise that a Sith might even exist, then how exactly did they expect this balance to arrive???But they did detect the shadow or shroud of the dark side, even if they did not know it's source. Thus, they knew that the Force was out of balance.

Balance means all sides are equal. Does it not? No, it does not.

It means return the Force to its natural, stable (i.e. balanced) state, which is not corrupted by the users of dark side.

If they were ignorant of the SITHs presence, yet thought Anakin was supposed to bring balance, what exactly did they think that meant????They knew that Anakin was going to distroy the Sith, thus destroy the users of the dark side, thus bring the Force back to its stable, balanced state.

The complete and utter erradication of the DarkSide of the force is NOT balance.Actually, that is exactly what balance is.

You cannot have Day without Night.The Force is not a two sided coin. The dark side is the corruption, damaging, harming of the natural Force. What you are saying is that you cannot have a growing tree without trying to hack it down.

So - while I fully support the Jedi code, I'd have to say that particular crop of Jedi Masters were a bit lacking in deductive reason.It seems you are lacking deductive reasoning. ;) Why would the Jedi attempt to bring the balance to the Force if that meant an equal amount of "light and dark"? Since they are by far the stronger (by number of beings, total power, or whatever measure), that would imply that they would have to destroy themselves in order to achieve that balance. And the prophecy would then make no sense, since it says the Chosen One would destroy the Sith. How can the destruction of the Sith, thus the dark side, bring the Force into balance if what you are saying is true?

The jedi like the sith are both a means of existance for each other without jedi there can be no sith and vise versor. Uh, the Jedi existed millenia before the Sith did, and Luke seems to be "existing" just fine at the end of ROTJ after Vader and Palpatine were destroyed...

mivoci1
11-10-2006, 10:05 PM
Jedi and Sith are to the galaxy the same because Sith were once Jedi but Jedi code and arrogance was the reason jedi became dark jedi

mivoci1, please note the date on the last post before posting. I have deleted several of your thread ressurection posts today, no more ok. Posting in a thread more than a couple weeks old since the last post is thread ressurection and is considered 'bumping' and unless you have something significant to add to the topic we ask that you refrain from posting in them. Thanks. -RH

SilentScope001
11-10-2006, 10:45 PM
The Sith and the Jedi are lies.

That's right. They both are pretenders to the throne, of representing what is the will of The Force...when The Force just laugh at them, like a curel being.

I finally came to the conclusion when studying the Rakatan Empire. Were there Jedi? No. Were there Sith? No. But The Force was used, a lot. The Rakatans were happy, glad, using the Force for what they saw as right. They were destroyed...but they lived a long, long time. Kreia also mentioned that The Force existed before the Jedi and the Sith defined what was DS and LS...and questions, "What was good and evil then?"

So, what is The Force then? I heard speculation that it acts as a detached observer, basically modifiying the universe to what it wants to happen, doing so for reasons that is beyond us, to acheive a hidden mean. The Force created the Sith and the Jedi to help carry out its aims...and would destroy it when it wants to. Humans don't use The Force...The Force uses Humans.

Think of it as a God, though not as cruel or evil as Kreia describes it. I think The Force has our best interest at heart, and want us to be fine.

Prime, your idea of "balance" meaning "Kill off all Dark Side Users!111!", with the Dark Side Users perverting the Force...while I hate the idea, sees it to be more reasonable than having the LS and DS be in balance. Prehaps, The Force hates being used by the DS, and therefore, manlipuates so that the LS destroys the DS, so the Force is able to carry out its will, and continues to contorl the galaxy. And if so, this gives another view of Kreia...Kreia complains and worries that countless lives are wasted so that the Force can achieve "balance"...so, prehaps Kreia is really angry that the LS Force wants to prevent the Sith from contorlling the Force, and that it is this LS Force that causes the Sith to always lose. Kreia may, when fallen, decided that destruction of The Force on is the only way to prevent her teachings that has traces of Sith and DS ideas from being destroyed again.

(EDIT: Maybe "balance=no DS Users" isn't really that reasonable. Maybe the LS needs to be conteracted by the DS, otherwise both dies off. But...here lies the important thing I realize:

WE DON'T KNOW. We don't have scientific Force-Reading Tools that allow us to know what the Force actually is. A shame, isn't it? So, it all is down to what I feel is right and what is wrong.)

Vaelastraz
11-11-2006, 08:16 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I would draw the line between good and evil. Period, dot. Good=save people from towering building. Evil= Watch people and laugh. Grey= laugh and pull them away from harm. You see, the Dark Side of the Force is evil, but the powers aren't. It's how you use the power of the Force. For instance, let's say you use a "light side" power to heal a wounded Sith while another is about to kill a helpless baby and woman. Or, let's say you use a "dark side" power to shoot lighting out of your hand (though Luke can make his own kind of good lightning) and overload a power conuit, therefor making a door break but causing no harm to living sentients. See what I mean?

What exactly is the difference between a "good" ability that kills and a "bad" one?

I myself prefer to believe what Kyle says. He says that abilities are not good nor bad, it's how and for what you use them.

Sith and Jedi are both extremes... i would really like to see a force sensitive who uses the force as a gift, to accomplish his goals. Like someone would use the "gift" of intelligence. No force philosophy needed.

shinyjedi
11-11-2006, 03:37 PM
The force is like water in that it flows where it is able. Like water, it can be bane or boon, and like water, it has no concious will of its own. Perhaps the great mystery of the force lies in the fact that something without conscious will defies the efforts of any and all who attempt to ascribe conscious will to it.

Perhaps the Jedi (to carry out the water example) build cisterns, wells, and firehoses, while the Sith build water balloons, and cause destructive floods. The water doesn't control who uses it, nor does it care. The good or evil in water use lies in the intent of the user.

One of the most misquoted biblical quotes is to the effect that "money is the root of all evil" More correctly, the passage states that "the lust for money is the root of all evil" The force might be thought of in the same way. The jedi use it as a tool, the Sith lust for it for its own sake and the power it brings them. In neither case is the force itself to blame.

mivoci1
11-13-2006, 01:48 PM
The Jedi are nothing than dead to everyone around them and themselfs if Jedi really could feel the Sith's presence why did not began more actively search for the Sith ah what gives being Sith Lord is the best choice Anakin made Jedi always bumblling about "The Cohsen One" and Mace Windu was the first resposinble for the downfall of the Jedi

Rabish Bini
11-14-2006, 04:23 AM
The Jedi is in havoc because the code is too strict. They don't let ppl xpress themselves. They are like robots, especially the council. If they had a code that allowed ppl to xpress themselves, than practically no-one will fall to the Dark Side. But no, the Jedi are too near sighted. Bunch of fools. BURN JEDI BURN!

FerroKnight
11-30-2006, 07:05 PM
Everyone is talking about how they want to be a Jedi or a regular guy at the start of KOTOR 3. What I'm curious to know is what are people's view of the Jedi. The Disciple says the Jedi are a symbol and they are different. Jolee Bindo says something that people think the Jedi are perfect. What is your take?

I think the Jedi are not perfect. If they were, they'd never have civil wars. Plus, I blame the Jedi Council for their own destruction in Ep 3. They're very arrogant.

Prime
12-01-2006, 10:11 AM
Prime, your idea of "balance" meaning "Kill off all Dark Side Users!111!", with the Dark Side Users perverting the Force...Not my idea. Lucas's idea.

Don't get on my case if you don't like it.

SilentScope001
12-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Not my idea. Lucas's idea.

Don't get on my case if you don't like it.

Er. Sorry Prime. Yeah, it does sound like George Lucas' idea. Which is why I believe it to be right and canon. I still hate it though.

shinyjedi
12-02-2006, 05:20 PM
The Star Wars universe seems to have grown beyond its creator's original vision, as have the Jedi and Sith. They've taken on a life of their own. Note the continuing aliveness of Bobba Fett. Whether or not the Jedi/Sith as we know them today exist as GL originally saw them has lost some relavance.

On the other hand, the definition of the term "balance" bears further discussion, as there are many types of balance, You wouldn't want, for instance, to have to kill somebody everytime a child is born just to maintain balance.....

Clone L68362
12-02-2006, 06:41 PM
Potentium is the way to go, fo sho.

Xaris Vynn
12-03-2006, 02:11 AM
Overall the Jedi have been seen as Defenders of Justice and Peace in the galaxy for thousands of generations. They are a little stiff at time and are always concern with the TASK at hand.

The Jedi, The Sith, The Force, and the entire Star Wars Universe is continually evolving.


When in the beginning of The Star Wars Universe we are told that the Lords of the Sith were Dark Jedi that used the Force combined with the dark magic of the original race called the Sith, and For many millennia we are told there is a light and dark side of the force.
Then we see in the end of the NJO series when Vergere basically tells Jacen forget everything your Uncle has told you and that there is no light or dark side of the Force, it is how and why the being in question uses it. Right after he uses force lighting for the first time.

The time that most people seem to be focusing on is the time of the movies and the Jedi Code, which for the most part, gets thrown out the window when Luke has to rebuild the order.

They even state in the LotJ books series (the time between RotS and New Hope) that “attachments” will part of the Jedi of the future and that they will be deemed as good.

Which depending on how you feel throws out the whole “there is no emotion there is only peace”. No one can say that Luke attachments didn’t play some role concerning some of his decisions and actions, that he has made. Attachments such as his love for Mara Jade or for his other family members. We even see that he does this when he leaves Yoda and his training to save his friends in The Empire Strikes Back.

sayoko
12-03-2006, 02:32 PM
well what did you expect from the son of anakin skywalker?:P

Vaelastraz
12-03-2006, 03:07 PM
Well that concept of balance only works if you see the movies as Starwars, without anything before and after it...
Then it's ok if balance is brought to the force by the elimination the Sith lord Palpatine.

Xaris Vynn
12-03-2006, 10:59 PM
well what did you expect from the son of anakin skywalker?:P

Was this question for me? if it was the answer would be that.

It has nothing to do with who's son he is. The point I was trying to make about the Jedi was the fact that they behave differently depending on what time of the SW universe we are talking about. Almost all of the Jedi after RotJ have attachments i.e. spouses or kids.

Windu Chi
12-03-2006, 11:29 PM
It has nothing to do with who's son he is. The point I was trying to make about the Jedi was the fact that they behave differently depending on what time of the SW universe we are talking about. Almost all of the Jedi after RotJ have attachments i.e. spouses or kids.
It is called evolution and discovery.
The Jedi just change in thousand of years of their existance.
Also if I remember correctly from the NJO series, Luke Skywalker change the flaw beliefs in, my opinion.
He change the old beliefs of Jedi of the old republic.
He said, the use of emotions was ok, i.e. spouses or kids.
After he had founded the Jedi Academy on Yavin IV several years after the events of the Battle of Endor.

Prime
12-04-2006, 09:47 AM
Potentium is the way to go, fo sho.Definitely! Just ask Jacen Solo!

Oh wait...

Totenkopf
12-04-2006, 11:21 AM
Seems to me that the Jedi of the KOTOR era are too detached from the population at large. Given that Jedi and Sith can both be killed by "mundanes", the necessity of the Jedi to preserving an orderly universe is questionable. All the more so due to the ease with which they often fall to the dark side. Bastila's big pic amounted more to the Jedi looking out for themselves than anyone else. Not exactly high minded. From what I can remember of the books post ROTJ storyline, the Jedi seem to have integrated themselves a little better into serving the Republic and not just themselves. But I could be wrong, it's been awhile since I've read them.

Jediphile
12-04-2006, 11:42 AM
Was this question for me? if it was the answer would be that.

It has nothing to do with who's son he is. The point I was trying to make about the Jedi was the fact that they behave differently depending on what time of the SW universe we are talking about. Almost all of the Jedi after RotJ have attachments i.e. spouses or kids.

True, but the odd thing is that there is a lot of uncertainty about this even during the KotOR era. For example, Nomi Sunrider was married and had a daughter. Yes, this was before she became a jedi, but her husband, Andur, was a jedi with wife and daughter before he was killed, at which point Nomi went into apprenticeship while raising her daughter alone. We've never seen anyone question the relationship between Andur and Nomi, and indeed Nomi and Ulic had at least a romantic interest in each other while they were both jedi until he turned to the dark side.

And obviously Jolee became married, trained his wife against the wishes of the jedi order, then failed to kill her, when she tried to turn him to the dark side and attempted to murder him, when he refused. She went onto killing other jedi, before dying herself, yet in spite of all this, Jolee was still shown compassion and not punished by the order. He left because he couldn't forgive himself, not because the order threw him out.

And yet Bastila tells us in K1, that jedi children must be separated from their parents when still very young, and that they aren't allowed to know love. Not only that, but in K2 we learn from Kreia that Arren Kae was a master who was exiled from the order for having given birth to a child (Brianna).

Something doesn't quite add up there, if you ask me.

Totenkopf
12-04-2006, 01:30 PM
Perhaps it just goes to show that not everyone in the order agreed with that policy. It's one thing to try to impose a set of rules, another to get ALL to follow. You could think of it, imperfectly of course, as analogous to the question of married priests w/in Catholicism. The ban on marriage is really only centuries old, while the religion itself is measured in millenia. It may again revert back if the number of vocations continues to decline. It's also somewhat muddled by the fact that married clergy from other sects of Christianity can still maintain their marriages and become priests (though unlikely to ever reach bishop or higher) w/in the Church. With people always come complications.

Clone L68362
12-04-2006, 05:54 PM
Definitely! Just ask Jacen Solo!

Oh wait...

Hey, maybe he'll turn out just like Revan...Revan thought only a Sith Lord could save the Republic, but in the end he became even better...

Ok, yeah, I doubt Jacen will end up with amnesia and become an even stronger Jedi and kill his apprentice, but still...

JediMaster12
12-04-2006, 06:25 PM
I am surprised this thread became ressurected. I have seen the opinions bounced back and forth about the Jedi and the Sith. I admit that the philosophies of both groups are extremes and they do have a flaw. Reading posts, it seems that people forget that the original intention of the Jedi Code was to promote the idea that rationality be the base of decisions. Like anything in longstanding traditions, the original meaning becomes lost and it becomes one of those 'it's the way it has always been done' things. This is seen time and time again throughout history so really the whole arrogance thing, it is reflective of human nature and the time.

Light or dark, I am neither. To be frank I can see the shades of grey even more so that I expanded knowledge into studying other cultures.

Jediphile
12-04-2006, 06:31 PM
I am surprised this thread became ressurected. I have seen the opinions bounced back and forth about the Jedi and the Sith. I admit that the philosophies of both groups are extremes and they do have a flaw. Reading posts, it seems that people forget that the original intention of the Jedi Code was to promote the idea that rationality be the base of decisions. Like anything in longstanding traditions, the original meaning becomes lost and it becomes one of those 'it's the way it has always been done' things. This is seen time and time again throughout history so really the whole arrogance thing, it is reflective of human nature and the time.

Precisely.

Or as Obi-Wan would say, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That is exactly where the jedi masters of the KotOR era have gone wrong. Or to quote Trek's Captain Picard: "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute." Same thing.

jonathan7
12-05-2006, 05:04 AM
Thing is even during the prequels Jedi were allowed attachments, Aki-Mundi (sp) had a wife and kids and was still a member of the Jedi High Council.

I personally don't think that the Jedi Orders teachings are flawed. Much like the Samurai have their code and you had the Chivalric codes in europe for knights. It was the failure of people to follow the code that led to problems over anything else. Personally I understand the no attachment rule, as in the end the reason Anakin had fallen was because of attachment. That said the council was never given the opportunity to allow Skywalker to be married as they were never given the opportunity. I don't think the code is as strict duting the movie era as you lot make out. As Aki-Mundi is an example of a Jedi being allowed to be married, so I think that individual Jedi would be treated as Individuals. As for there failure to spot the Sith Lord, at the end of Episode 2 Yoda says; 'The darkside clouds everything' and as Yoda said the sith are shadowy, in my opinion a problem with too many of the Jedi is their arrogance during the prequels the only exceptions in my opinion are Yoda and Obi-Wan. Yoda did detect that the Sith Lord was in Palpatines inner circle, but one of Plaptines special abilities is being able to disguise his true self. I certainly think Mace Windu was partly responsible fo Anakins fall - treating him harshly and then trying to kill Plapatine. I also think Windu did show a fair bit of arrogance (not that i dont like him, think hes a quality charachter). Finally I think anyone will have problems with any code, I'm a devout Christian but I would never claim that i follow the bible perfectly, form my point of view Jesus was the only person to follow it correctly. So the problems with any code arent the code itself but those following it.

Finally the Sith are Evil, and must be stopped; Balance means destroying them, not having an equal number of Force users.

Titanius Anglesmith
12-05-2006, 12:26 PM
The thing with the Jedi is that the majority of them are arrogant: they think they're right and no one else is. I think that is the main factor that turns some people away from the Jedi. The Jedi Code is good and all, but the Jedi themselves are the problem. With the Jedi, I'm kinda like those people that have the bumper stickers that say "I have no problem with God. I just don't like his fan club." I have no problem with the Jedi Code, I just don't like the Jedi...well, the majority of the Jedi. Now I'm not sayin the Jedi are terrible and should die because they don't follow the Code to the letter, cuz I'm a Christian and I don't always follow the Bible perfectly. I'm just sayin that they should at least be able to see their mistakes and their arrogance.

JediMaster12
12-05-2006, 01:34 PM
jonathan: Aki-Mundi was an exception because the popoulation of his world was very low. It had something to do with birth rates or something like that. I read that off of starwars.com I think.

The arrogance is reflective of human nature and the power of tradition. It is very hard to argue with tradition or to get it to change.

jonathan7
12-05-2006, 01:53 PM
jonathan: Aki-Mundi was an exception because the popoulation of his world was very low. It had something to do with birth rates or something like that. I read that off of starwars.com I think.

The arrogance is reflective of human nature and the power of tradition. It is very hard to argue with tradition or to get it to change.

Aye I had heard that, although hadn't read that myself, although if hes married surely a Attachment will develop? But I don't see why if an exception was made in his case that Anakin couldn't of had one for Padme.

SilentScope001
12-05-2006, 03:22 PM
I hate the New Jedi Order's supporting of attachments.

It is love that fuels the Dark Side. Love is an emotion, and emotions fuel the Dark Side. The Old Jedi Order knew this, but this New Jedi Order does not. Love is terrible, it clouds a person's mind, and it can get people to fall. Plus, love can be seen as a sort of egoism, of thinking you are superior...and a Jedi should not be superior.

After all, the Sith tolerate love, but they dislike it intensely. Love allows someone to be merciful. Still, it is an emotion, and by giving into your emotions, you grow more powerful in the Dark Side.

So, the Jedi, in an attempt to destroy the Sith, becomes the Sith themselves by embracing emotions. A great betrayal, and why I hate it.

JediMaster12
12-05-2006, 06:07 PM
Aye I had heard that, although hadn't read that myself, although if hes married surely a Attachment will develop? But I don't see why if an exception was made in his case that Anakin couldn't of had one for Padme.
Probably has to do with the fact thatAki Mundi shows no attachment. Maybe he viewed it as being a necessary.

Emperor Devon
12-05-2006, 09:11 PM
His species had a low rate of births, so the Council let him have several wives.

JediMaster12
12-06-2006, 06:47 PM
Of course. I knew I was missing something. Thanks for pointing that out ED. You do have your moments.

Master Kavar
12-06-2006, 07:44 PM
I hate the New Jedi Order's supporting of attachments.

Hate leads to the dark side too. :P

It is love that fuels the Dark Side. Love is an emotion, and emotions fuel the Dark Side. The Old Jedi Order knew this, but this New Jedi Order does not. Love is terrible, it clouds a person's mind, and it can get people to fall. Plus, love can be seen as a sort of egoism, of thinking you are superior...and a Jedi should not be superior.

Love doesn't fuel the dark side, passion does. And like Jolee said passion and love aren't the same thing. If you could take anything from RotJ it was love that saved Luke's life; love for his father to redeem him, and then finally Vader's love for his son to save him from the Emperor. Love doesn't condemn a Jedi, only the messy attachments that usually come with it. The old Jedi order decided that love was simply not worth the risks that came with it, Luke obviously had a different point of view from his own experiences.

After all, the Sith tolerate love, but they dislike it intensely. Love allows someone to be merciful. Still, it is an emotion, and by giving into your emotions, you grow more powerful in the Dark Side.

I would say love is only as tolerated as in the "dark" versions that usually come with it, lust, possesiveness, dominance, etc. Otherwise love is only a liability, one that would quickly be used against you. But love doesn't make a person strong in the dark side, in fact quite the opposite.

So, the Jedi, in an attempt to destroy the Sith, becomes the Sith themselves by embracing emotions. A great betrayal, and why I hate it.

It wasn't love that led Anakin to the dark side; it was fear and greed. Fear of losing what was important to him, and the possesiveness he held over the people in his life. He could've still loved his wife and not fallen to the dark side if he had controlled his passions, of course it didn't help that he had a Sith Lord pulling his strings most of his young life.

SilentScope001
12-06-2006, 08:38 PM
Love doesn't fuel the dark side, passion does.

True, but I assume emotion is a sort of passion. And if love is a passion, then it fuels the Dark Side. But I am not sure if this is true or not.

Jolee is correct, though it was his love for his wife that did cause Jolee to spare her, indirectly causing the death of several Jedi, and later, Jolee's exile. That could be chalked up to attachments and not the love itself, but I'm not sure.

You're right and all your reasons are soild, and I may be wrong in presuming that love is Dark Sided. I just got used to the idea because it does sound somewhat ironic...that a thing that would look to be good has a dark side to it. But so does everything.

I just am a Old Jedi Order supporter, and like how they handle love, even when what they did sometimes failed. Guess I'm a Jedi Conservative (tm).

Jediphile
12-06-2006, 08:51 PM
While I understand the Old Order's rules against love, I don't agree with them. It's true that love can lead you astray, but it is folly to believe that you can just outlaw it and then have the problem go away. It's like the old jedi are ruled by fear of where emotions might take them, and fear also leads to the dark side. The problem is where love can lead you, but that danger is always there, but to stop feeling is to be inhuman. And the jedi do embrace the concepts of compassion, forgiveness and piety. They should accept love too, so that they can deal with it instead of just trying to ignore it. If nothing else, doing that will be Luke's greatest contribution to the lasting legacy of the Jedi.

As for the Sith, no, they don't have love. The may allow it, but I don't think it's possible for them. Love makes you do compassionate and selfless things, and among the Sith that is weakness, which is punishable only by death. They have lust and passion, but that is not the same thing as love.

No, I think before the New Jedi Order, love was lost to both the Jedi and the Sith - the Jedi were not allowed to embrace it, and the Sith were either incapable of it or else couldn't afford it.

Xaris Vynn
01-01-2007, 02:50 AM
Well The jedi of the NJO have to make their decisions without their attachements being part of that decision.
My Statement was that the Starwars universe is always evolving and changing. I think that the attachements were allowed after RotJ basically because, all of the potential force users either already had lives and families and for luke to rebuild the order with children and if he did manage to get a parents to seperate with their children because they were force sensitive. How would he take care of all the children teach them and continue his duties to the galaxy as a whole?

He really could not rebuild the order one child at a time.

I do realize that there were exceptions to the rule before this time even Qui gon had a love interest in Tahl during the Jedi apprentice series.

I beleive that the Old jedi order made the policy of no attachments and getting children at a young age because it would be easier to train jedi to feel their emotions and let them go if they never knew their parents and had no atachments.

Love is a powerful emotion and we see what happened when Akakin could not make his decisions with out thinking about what might happen to Padame. and that his vision only came true because of his actions.

While the Sith had lus t and passion it was not for any living being it was for power or wealth or both.

The whole thing that confused the stuff out of me was the whole search your feeling lines from the movies and the books, what feeling were they searching if they were not allowed to feel any emotions such as love, hate, anger, sadness, fear.

I have never heard any tell a jedi not to be happy though so maybe that is what they felt.

jonathan7
01-01-2007, 10:01 AM
Love is a powerful emotion and we see what happened when Akakin could not make his decisions with out thinking about what might happen to Padame. and that his vision only came true because of his actions.


Hmmm, its an extreme example though. Also, it was more Arrogance that caused his fall, as its a very arrogant to think you can change the future, as by taking the course of action you are you could just be causing the event you want to stop to happen (like Anakin did). Love in itself is a beautiful thing, and had Anakin taken Yoda's advice (train yourself to let go of that you fear to loose etc) then it wouldn'y of happen. IMHO love should always be beautiful, i think Padame's love for Anakin was like that, but I believe Anakins love for her was a kind of Toxic, poisonous thing if that makes sense?

So imagine the one you love is going to die, and the only way to save him/her is to kill 5 people to get their various body parts would you do it? Personally I would not and would try to stop anyone who would do that. Death is a part of life, its is the only thing in our lives that is certain, we will all die, so why fear that which you cannot stop, we are not God, so ultimatly we cannot stop people from dying, we can delay the inevitable, but it will happen eventually.

ExileRevan
01-01-2007, 12:53 PM
I beleive the Old Jedi order was weak and dull witted. Not being able to see that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, or that Revan and Malak would eventualy take over is the Ultimate proof of the Old Jedi's incompitance. Even Mace Windu said that their ability to see through the force was diminished. The New Jedi Order is much better with Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, and Corran Horn as Masters. Masters who see past the obvious picture.

Master Kavar
01-01-2007, 01:39 PM
I beleive the Old Jedi order was weak and dull witted. Not being able to see that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, or that Revan and Malak would eventualy take over is the Ultimate proof of the Old Jedi's incompitance. Even Mace Windu said that their ability to see through the force was diminished. The New Jedi Order is much better with Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, and Corran Horn as Masters. Masters who see past the obvious picture.

Oh yes, Luke is much more wiser than the Masters who came before him, no way he would miss that his own nephew is secretly a Sith Lord.

SilentScope001
01-01-2007, 02:17 PM
Oh yes, Luke is much more wiser than the Masters who came before him, no way he would miss that his own nephew is secretly a Sith Lord.

Oh...come on! Offically, Luke's newphew is not a Sith Lord, he's a Sith Lord-in training. See? :)

It seems that every single Jedi Order seems to have some sort of fault. The Old Jedi Order are incompenent and shy away from all human emotions. The New Jedi Order are incompenent and obey every single human emotion. (Hey, a note, if the NJO is so perfect, how come it gets smashed by the Galatic Empire and Darth Krayt? And why in the world did many of the New Jedi decided to jump ship and join up with the Imperial Jedi? And for the greatest insult of them all, why in the world did the NJO cannot destroy a race of non-Force users?)

It is almost as if each Jedi Order is fatally flawed and unable to deal with the events so that the Dark Side can always battle, defeat, and destroy them...almost as if all of these events happen over and over for some reason, possibly to help balance George Lucas' checkbook?

JediMaster12
01-09-2007, 03:47 PM
It goes to emphasize the point that nothing is perfect. There are bound to be flaws in any system. You can't satisfy everybody. It's physically impossible.

Love and passion aren't the same thing just like infatuation and love aren't the same thing. Sure infatuation starts to look like love but it dies quick. Love is something different.

Arrogance seems to be the downfall and that is because when you have a period of where everything is fine and good, you start thinking those kinds of thoughts. There is such a thing as good intentions but it is not the same as consequences.

jonathan7
01-11-2007, 12:53 PM
Love and passion aren't the same thing just like infatuation and love aren't the same thing. Sure infatuation starts to look like love but it dies quick. Love is something different.

What would you call Anakins feelings towards Padme are though? I would say they were beyond what love would normally be about, don't you think? Would you kill a 100 kinds, and thousands of adults for one person?

Vaelastraz
01-11-2007, 01:12 PM
No, actually I would call that a flaw in the story. Anakin's motives are not well thought out if you ask me.

Prime
01-11-2007, 01:14 PM
How so?

SilentScope001
01-11-2007, 04:15 PM
Love and passion aren't the same thing just like infatuation and love aren't the same thing. Sure infatuation starts to look like love but it dies quick. Love is something different.

Then what is love? The only thing that I see as love is Jolee's love for his wife and Atton's love for the female Jedi. Jolee let his wife go and slaughter countless innocent Jedi. Atton killed off the Jedi in order to preserve his secret...and because she wanted to die to save Atton from the DS. This is very heroic and a real example of love at work...But is it really useful?

It goes to emphasize the point that nothing is perfect. There are bound to be flaws in any system. You can't satisfy everybody. It's physically impossible.

You miss my point. Why nothing is perfect? Why is it that the Jedi always lose and the Sith always win? If the Force is balanced by the destruction of the DS, why does it always reappear? If the Empire was destroyed afte ROTJ, how come everyone betrayed the Republic?

The only reason I can see is because George Lucas and his company want to make tons of actual money, and therefore, always cause for the Jedi and Sith to kill each other in an endless cycle of warfare. The war continues between Force-Users, and the non Force-Users suffers.

Atton, for instance, tells the Exile that the galaxy believes that the Sith and the Jedi are just religious factions who squabble, and hurt each other. You hear it over and over again how the Non Force-Users see Jedi not as good. Kreia, having access to the future, sees this and then swears to destroy the Force and its will in order to save the galaxy.

This is George Lucas (or, if we wish to keep everything in a Star Wars lingo...The Force)'s universe. He can create a perfect universe if he wanted to. But he does not. Of course, I do not ask for George Lucas to create a perfect universe. But the blame does lie with him for the reason why there is a Dark Side and why the Jedi always get broken, no matter if they embrace emotion or turn away.

What would you call Anakins feelings towards Padme are though? I would say they were beyond what love would normally be about, don't you think? Would you kill a 100 kinds, and thousands of adults for one person?

And provide a distraction so Mace Windu could be killed? And fall to the Dark Side and join the Sith? And kill younglings in the Jedi Order? And attack off Obi-Wan? And even Force Choke Padme in order to break her to follow him? All of that was done to save Padme, all of that was done to help Padme, to find a cure to her illness...not realizing that it was HE that would have killed off Padme, by breaking her heart and her will to live.

I would argue that it is "lust", mistaken for love, that Anakin had. He had a possession, Padme, and he wanted to keep her, because she is a beautiful object. He didn't want that object to decay, die, or get stolen...and would be willing to do whatever it take...

JediMaster12
01-11-2007, 05:09 PM
SilentScope: Love is different from infatuation in that love is deep rooted. I can't tell you because I never have been in love but I can equate infatuation to being a crush. I have been in an out of them, what girl can't.

To answer your second section, the main emphasis is on point of view. Also, if you are an analyst like me, you would notice that everything in life is cyclical. The constant warfare is a reflextion on the continuous battle of good v evil. You can't have one without the other, the theory of balance. Yeah one side wins and darkness takes over but then the light fights back. Nothing lasts forever. That is the fate of all things.

You speak of the view of galaxy thinking that the Jedi and Sith are the same thing. Truth be told they are the same but they focus on different ends of the spectrum. The Sith crave power to dominate, the right by might clause whereas the Jedi seek power for what is called the greater good. All goes to judgment and point of view on what is right or not.

SilentScope001
01-11-2007, 05:25 PM
Nothing lasts forever. That is the fate of all things.

Still, I don't know. I want something to last forever, otherwise, what was the point of the Jedi's deaths? The Sith's murders? All those people that fought to destroy the Empire...their lives died in vain, as the sons and daughters of those rebels openly accept the Empire with open arms.

What was the point of fighting for anything at all? Nothing. I understand the theory of balance, but George Lucas has the potential to destroy it, since he runs the entire universe. He could have the universe be a perfect place, and instead, he turned it into a dystopia. Why? For the money.

Maybe I just complain too much, and becoming more like Kreia, the old witch. I'll shut up now.

JediMaster12
01-11-2007, 05:40 PM
Again it is point of view. They fought for something that they thought was worth fighting for. It is human nature to believe in something. Maybe on a subconcious level Lucas was trying to portray human nature where we get so worked up in what we believe in that we are willing to fight for it.

On another note, maybe you are into cynicism and hey, that's you. This is a court of forum opinion.

jonathan7
01-12-2007, 05:07 PM
Still, I don't know. I want something to last forever, otherwise, what was the point of the Jedi's deaths? The Sith's murders? All those people that fought to destroy the Empire...their lives died in vain, as the sons and daughters of those rebels openly accept the Empire with open arms.

What was the point of fighting for anything at all? Nothing. I understand the theory of balance, but George Lucas has the potential to destroy it, since he runs the entire universe. He could have the universe be a perfect place, and instead, he turned it into a dystopia. Why? For the money.

Maybe I just complain too much, and becoming more like Kreia, the old witch. I'll shut up now.

With regarding money making, I agree with your cynical point of view, I think with the SW:EU to me it would have made sense to have alot more fighting before the films, and then do of had a thousand years peace afterwards. The point of everything that happens in the SW Universe is up for debate.

Personally I'm a christian, so with regards this life I have a different opinion. With regards Anakins love I am of the following opinion; From my perspective love is sacrifice, in its purest form that is Jesus dying on the cross for our sins so we could go to heaven through him. What this means to me, is that with a relationship that Anakin should seek his happiness in Padme's happiness in other words centre his efforts within that relationship of making her happy. And Padme should do the same with reguards Anakin. Where Anakin went wrong was instead of seeking Padme's happiness he was seeking his own happiness (keeping her alive) because he couldnt be without her, which to me seems to be treating her as if shes a possession. I'm sure many of you will disagree :p

JediMaster12
01-16-2007, 04:59 PM
You place a good point there jonanthan about love. Like what Jolee said that love could lead to rage and fear. Love though is a beautiful thing.
As to your point of having more fighting before the movies, and a thousand years peace afterward, doesn't seem right. Historically speaking, after the major goal is won, there are still battles to be fought to achieve the peace that is needed. Your idea reminds me of something that closely resembles Revelation and not a bad dream to hope on.

Allronix
01-18-2007, 07:08 PM
I lost all respect for the Jedi as an institution with the prequels. Atton had the right of it. Men and women with too much power, lording on high, and clueless about the concerns and trouble of the common folk. They are harvested from birth, raised as sociopaths (no normal emotional response), and holed away in enclaves and temples for their upbringing. They have no attachments, no grounding, aside from codes and mantras that mean squat when faced with something real and messy. This is why I view Bastila as a brittle, sad mess - lovely character, but an utter mess. The Jedi say they will not know fear, but they live in constant fear. They fear so intensely that they cut their spirits and bleed to death rather than face it.

And on many fronts, a Jedi and Sith really are no different. Both seek to break all chains - sever all attachments - save to the Force, to which they willingly shackle themselves. (Kreia, I suspect, wanted to destroy the Force as to achieve the ultimate freedom - almost Randian). People who cannot use the Force as they are seen as livestock - a flock to be tended if Jedi; used, abused, and slaughtered as Sith. Both factions keep dirty secrets by the bushel and don't bother letting the livestock have a say. "Only a Sith sees in absolutes?" SUUUUUURRRRREEE, Kenobi. And do you want to try that "certain point of view" trick again? He was lucky that Luke inherited Padme's temper and not Anakin's.

Speaking of Anakin, I suspect a bigger component in his fall - even more so than Padme - was that the more he thought about it, the more he concluded that he didn't win his freedom in the podrace, just changed owners. In a case like that, the slaughter of the younglings was an atrocity, but being that far around the bend, he could have thought of it as freeing them from a slavery worse than death. After all, slaves can't marry, either. Only free men can marry and have that marriage be out in the open. A free man could go and rescue his mother from Sand People, but a slave has to stay with his master. (Hell, even the title would have raised a red alert). The Jedi put so much "Chosen One" pressure on him that he probably couldn't leave, even if he wanted to. And the harder they squeezed him, the more he went looking for any freedom he could, whether Padme or Palpatine. And, again, Anakin ends up only changing owners when he thinks he gets freedom. The true, bitter irony of Anakin Skywalker - he sought and dreamed of freedom all his life, but the only freedom he ever got was the few moments dying in Luke's arms.

Now, imagine for a moment if Anakin hadn't walked in, if the Jedi had managed to kill Palpatine and sieze control of the Republic. They would likely keep control of the government "until Palpatine's influence has been purged from the Senate," but who would decide when that was? Yup, the Jedi would be the ones deciding when they'd give up power...if at all. At that point, "until the Republic is safe" could be just as easily said "Until those blighted souls who can't use the Force have achieved the wisdom we have."

On the flip side? Well, I was doodling a scene between Carth and Mical, and Mical started talking...

"I know the Republic military alone cannot keep us together, Admiral. Look at the Republic itself - hundreds of species, thousands of worlds, millions of cultures and traditions. The Chancellor cannot expect unity to come through martial law any more than he expects to fill the Room of a Thousand Fountains with a sieve..."

"If they serve no other purpose, the Jedi are a symbol for what the Republic stands for - the protection of the weak, respect for democracy without the tyranny of the majority, defenders of the rule of justice. A Jedi can be of any race, or gender, come from any world or culture, but they are fundamentally of the Republic itself. Such a symbol can do more to save us than a hundred armies can."

Kreia may be of the opinion that the Repubic is merely a shell that surrounds the Jedi, but she is a Force-User and that is likely a bias. The truth may be closer to symbiosis. Kotor and the prequels drive the point that one cannot survive without the other. If the Republic falls (as it does in the prequels), the Jedi are doomed. If the Jedi are destroyed (Kotor), the Republic is equally doomed.

JediMaster12
01-18-2007, 09:55 PM
You have a point there. I can see you are like the ordinary citizens after the Jedi Civil War: the Jedi and the Sith are one and the same. You emphasize the negative aspects.
The way how I see it is that the code was a good idea to start but like all things, tradition becomes the rule and experience has shown that tradition is very hard to break.The way how I view the Jedi Code is that it is a guideline, emphasis on guideline, as to how to approach decision making. Take the first part:
There is no emotion, there is peace
Yeah we are human and yeah we are going to have emotions but the idea I think is that when making a critical decision of life and death, you are supposed to think rationally. You are not supposed to let your heart run away with you. I think that the Jedi got carried away and decided that to be void of all emotion was better.

As for the Sith they let their emotions make their decisions for them. That is not good because there is no rationality in the choice. Often it turns into purely selfish reasons that they do things. The Jedi and the Sith are the extremes of the same thing just at opposite ends. The idea is to find balance between the two.

As to your point about bias, it's always there. No matter what is said, true objectivity can never be achieved because of bias. We can gain more knowledge and become less ignorant but we always operate on preseumptions.

CSI
01-18-2007, 10:03 PM
JM12 got a point. I think Jedi are guardian of peace, not soldiers. I admit Jedi's activities have lots of flaws, but I still accept it and use it to guide our activities. But the problem is, Jedi and Sith are all Force Users, but their aspect is different--Jedi focuses on peaceful solution, but Sith focuses on...

I call it Aggressive Negotiations!

Totenkopf
01-19-2007, 02:04 AM
Kreia may be of the opinion that the Repubic is merely a shell that surrounds the Jedi, but she is a Force-User and that is likely a bias. The truth may be closer to symbiosis. Kotor and the prequels drive the point that one cannot survive without the other. If the Republic falls (as it does in the prequels), the Jedi are doomed. If the Jedi are destroyed (Kotor), the Republic is equally doomed.

Ah, the jedi are like white blood cells....

In a case like that, the slaughter of the younglings was an atrocity, but being that far around the bend, he could have thought of it as freeing them from a slavery worse than death.

So Anakin = Hanharr, at least in that respect....

Darth Avlectus
01-19-2007, 03:25 AM
Frankly the way I see it the sun must rise and fall as the night. Is it not the same with the force? I think it to be so.

The jedi raise a few questions to everybody I'm sure. At one point they allow marriage. Then not. Then with luke and mara, it's okay again?

Tell me that isn't either "just going with the flow" and adapting to the times, or playing with semantics.

--Though I do realize that not all jedi agree and not all sith agree.

I agree: Jolee and Kyle have it right. (They both remind me of my father, if that gives you any idea as to my upbringing..... In fact, I'd say Jan's personality reminds me of my mother.)

As far as love, if done responsibly, it probably will come out okay in the end. Sure, it beckons danger, uncertainty, and tragedy ...especially for force sensitives, but so it does for ordinary people all the same. However, just because things are fraught with uncertainty, tragedy, and danger doesn't mean it should not be done...of course in many cases it isn't a choice; just happens. Fate, I suppose.
Still, jedi have tried to deny themselves this.

While that works for those taken at birth, if they hope to be successful with those not taken from birth, a bit of change will be needed--without alienating!

A certain responsibility aspect is that if the one you love is going to die and you live, that's no reason to make the rest of existence suffer. Remember them so they are never really gone, but don't dwell on it to illness or worse, make your peace and move on. If you can't do that, then why not go with your love--die with your lover?
If you can save your love, then, by all means, do so.

I don't care to get into pre-destination arguments or oversimplifying it to "it's the will of the force"; My opinion: In the film, padme's death was from heartbreak. Anakin did wish to save her life, but he also had a lust for power in the other part of his life and she could not live with that.
How do I know this? How could I (or anybody else) NOT?!?!?! Use your heart AND your head.

So far as the good and the bad, it is what it is. Jedi and Sith have their polarities, but I think that is of popular view. The tables could turn the other way, you know. The powers of good can be used for evil and it works the other way around as well.

I'm sort of grey, neutral. That can be achieved one of 4 ways: indescision, extremes, ambivalence, or an oscillating combination of the 3. I must also be careful so that a void of nothingness does not envelop me. Nothingness is absolutely, well, nothing and nonexistence--which cannot be, nor can it (correctly) sensed or analyzed by our world of existing and dare I say somethingness--everythingness. Beyond actual is possible, beyond possible is probable vs improbable, beyond that is forever. Where the trouble lies in the probability vs. improbability, it creates a void 'like' nothingness, destruction happens in the world of everythingness.

Therefore I am not at all surprised that a character such as Nihilus can consume the whole universe if he desires, yet as fate and the force intertwine, someone who is similar in such respect of a void can come about and easily crush him.

However the burden is now on the similar one (exile) to not become what he (or she) has just anihlated. (That's a rather symbolic of life if you really think about it!) That is if nihilus can olny die by the exile's hand.
I've heard just as many who are convinced that it is not that way at all--that any averege-joe-jedi-nobody could defeat him as well.


But I digress:
In truth, choices and decisions form who we are.

I can find truth in both teachings...and flaws. It's finding the ACTUAL balance between the two that counts; where they both could be true and not contradict each other.

Without conflict, for example, is it truly possible to find happiness or purpose? Is there truly anything worth experiencing without overcoming obstacles of conflict? Conflict--AND what we learn from it is important as well as preserving peace. Conflict is also a natural part of life. Personally I feel it and its result is the point of life. As well as serving existence in some way.

On some of these points I have been objective and others subjective. I'll admit that much. But, who is anybody to tell me I'm wrong? Who am I to tell them they're wrong?

That's the way GTA:SWcity views the world right now. Before going to bed...G'nite!

Allronix
01-19-2007, 10:07 AM
As for marriage and family - well, things have waxed and waned on Jedi dogma. Prior to Exar Kun's War, no one so much as raised an eyebrow at Nomi Sunrider. She was a Jedi's widow with a small daughter who became Jedi in her own right. The Qel-Droma boys were not separated, but their Jedi mom knew that she could not be objective training them. So, for MOST of the Order's history, families were allowed, just as married priests were allowed until the 6th century.

It was only AFTER Exar Kun's War that we start seeing the crackdowns we get in KOTOR, and even then it wasn't as bad as the prequels. Krynda Draay from the KOTOR comics had a grown son, for example. And the restrictions we see in the prequels were a reactionary answer to Bane's purge. It seems that when the Sith come in and tear up the Order, the Jedi react out of terror in the aftermath, trying to prevent the next war, but instead cranking out brittle Padawans instead. Gotta give Luke credit for breaking the cycle - but a lot of that credit can also land with Han Solo. After all, YOU want to be the guy telling Han "No, you can't marry my sister?"

JediMaster12
01-19-2007, 02:20 PM
Ah fear. It can inspire the most unspeakable reactions amongst us. That is what the Jedi suffered with the Great Hyperspace war and the war of Exar Kun and so forth. Fear drives the unthinkable and it can be crippling. With the prequels, we get a void of all emotion and such and yet when the end of the Republic is near, it showed again. Of course with destruction there is cynicism.

I admit that I have light sided tendencies but for the most part I am grey. Like Jolee, both extremes annoy me and yet I can she when I have to use the ends justify the means clause. Once again, the whole base evolves around choice. We have free will and a moral compass but it doesn't make you go that direction.

SilentScope001
01-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Alright. For the sake of debate (as well as presenting my view of the Dark Side...)

To me, all feelings and beliefs are very irrational. They represent people's desires, and it intervenes with people's ability to make rational, sane desicions. They represent irrationality, and in some case, insanity.

Love, fear, happiness, sadness, they all are emotions. And it is these emotions that cloud your ability to make a desicion that is logical and correct. You need to see things in a detached light, otherwise you will become biased and make the WRONG desicion.

Suppose: A wants C. B wants C. A has a legal claim to C. So, A deserves C. BUT...you hate A and you love B (either as a family member, or as a "signficant other").

Don't say that you won't side with B, because you most likely will. Favoritisim is very common and likely in this real world, and most likely in this false world.

And if you embrace the LS and basically say, "Sorry, B. I love you, but I love the Light Side more..." then you are saying your love for B is outweighed by the devotion to the LS. What if your love for B outweighed your love for law and order? Congragulations, your effort let B urusup C!

And what if you neither like or dislike A or B? Then, since A has a natural claim to C, A therefore gets C. It is only when you have that love with B and hate with A that causes this clear cut situation to becomes cloudly...but if you do not have this cloud, volia! This complicated situation becomes a lot clearer and a lot easier.

I side with the Old Jedi Conseratives (tm) that attachments lead to the Dark side, because you would be putting what YOU want over what The Force and all that is good and just. Jolee should have killed off his wife, and he knew it, that why he exiled himself from the Jedi Order while the Old Jedi Conseratives (tm) spared him. By letting his wife live, he indirectly was responsible for killing off many, many Jedi. Had he not loved his wife, Jolee would kill him like he would kill any old Sith, and those Jedi would not have to be killed...

Of course, the Old Jedi Conseratives (tm) lived in constant fear and hate of the Dark Side, and this hate and fear did interfere with their desicion to deterimine what was right and what was wrong. In essence, they did fall to the Dark Side. However, this does not mean you just go and say, "You know what, have attachments with EVERYONE!" That would be just so stupid. Just look at the recent wars between the Solo familes and the Skywalker familes.

The Sith, for the most part, do not have the feeling of love. But they do have passion, hate, unconsisus fear, etc. which interferes with their ability to make rational descions, but, in return, receives "unlimited power!" The Old Jedi Conseratives (tm) also had these feelings, but possibly did not embrace them as much as the Sith.

The key to resolving this delimma (meaning what I think is a solution to the problem, but knowing full well that if it gets implemented in the Star Wars universe, the system will collaspe and prove to be a complete and utter failure thanks to George Lucas)...is to acknowledge the Dark Side within all of us, but attempt to get rid of it. Do not embrace the attachments you have, and try whatever you can to isolate the attachments that you have. That way, you can logically make desicions instead of irrationally giving into your desires.

Of course, maybe I am wrong. Atris did mention "At times I wonder what would happen if we all would be stripped of the Force, if we would we truly be Jedi or Sith...or simply human." Plus, with the Disciple/Visas speech talking of the glories of being human, prehaps I am not giving enough credit to irrational feelings. Prehaps the Dark Side may actually serve the path of enlightment, and I am being blind to it. I would also note that my alignment is Grey/Dark.

Still, here lies the idea.

JediMaster12
01-21-2007, 03:23 PM
Well the one thing that separates us from all other things is our ability to rationalize. It's what makes us human. A dog can't reason any more than a mouse can. The old masters knew this and knew that rationality can be clouded by personal feelings and emotions. To have non attachment is detrimental to humans because we are social beings. We cannot function very well alone. Society shows us that we constantly seek companionship with other people. I am not saying that all emotions are bad but they have the potential to become bad.

Darth Avlectus
02-04-2007, 07:19 AM
I actually see that too much detatchment is practically the same as too much attatchment. It can only mean disaster. You may forget the ones who care the most about you. Ignore everyone. Forget why you live. Or THAT you live. ...I wonder if this was another reason for why nihilus was, the way he was?
Sure, if one lived a totally placid and insipid life void of any color and meaning (which is quite possible--though *pathetic*) I suppose nothing could happen.
If there were absolutely no level of attatchment in jedi whatsoever, how could they form an order, much less hold the galaxy together as community? They could not. Nobody could. I would agree that control over this attatchment/detachment--force sensitive or not--is best. It is a continuum so you're either one or the other. The center is moderation.
Sith have a level of detatchment, seemingly from loyalty and being a people of their word. Despite all their passion and attatchment. They embrace a large view of the force--completely corrupted too.

Yeah I agree emotions in extreme can be bad--since I was a naturally angry child (I think it may be due to a neurological imbalance), now at 22, I have grey hairs sprouting. I know it isn't unusual--but having other premature health problems is not good. I can attest, the dark side is powerful, but it sure takes a toll on you. I'm center neutral. Not indifferent, I do honorable things, I do nice things, but I seem to counteract them. That's how a neutral is achived through extreme opposites. I am a neutral who does not mind the extremes when it can enact necessary change. Of course, the opposites can be brought down in their intensity (less stressful for sure).

One person who IMO was the closes thing on earth to a jedi was Nikola Tesla. Tesla once said some very profound things about health, not the least of which: "The solution lies noth with abstnence, but with moderation." In regard to Alchohol, Gambling, Stimulants, Gluttany, etc. Frankly, it's true with anything.
He was the man who invented AC. He also made many predictions about technology and wireless communications...in the late 1800s mind you. An eccentric fellow to be sure. However, He lived to be 78, when most people in his heyday only lived to their 40s and 50s. --His attachment was to his beloved pidgeons, despite the fact he was what many attractive women at the time called handsome. And his genius made him even more highly sought after. If anybody can control lightning without hate--he could. Though I'm sure he'd like to pop a few people for mispelling his name! :)

At any rate, pride *can lead to* arrogance. They are not one and the same. It could be said that by the very fact that the jedi hold a code is pride on behalf of jedi. A pride that dissuades arrogance.
It is my experience that, however humble and disciplined, after awhile, any intellegent being will become a little self-riteous about anything... even about denying self riteousness... It just goes to show how careful we all must be in our daily conduct to avoid unbalance of our life.

I never said anything about denying Han from marrying Leia...?


Somebody is using sure using the straw-man fallacy!: I certainly never said have attachments with everyone--there are some that we'd all do better without. Other times, the detatchment method just won't work--there needs to be some kind of training for the relationships that *must* happen. And declaring such a thing--though kind of brutal-- is a good way of not only getting otherwise pent-up stuff off of chests, but helps those in a position to see past where the 2 potential attatch-ees may not, to do something should problems arise. If they damn themselves, then so be it.
Depends on the exact issue and case, it does, who I'd side with. That isn't to say I have selective or highly liberal views. I'm just really picky before making my decision. If attachments can be done responsibly without ruining the existence around you, and you can remain objective enough to do the right thing in the end, then is it wrong? OF course, some don't believe that can ever BE love. I guess that responsibility means even killing off the one you love if things are that bad. Some can't always see where their devotion lies MORE. Others Can.
I suppose that's why others can't have any lasting relationship.
One thing that I can tell you is that any relationship based on commonalities first willl be more inflexible than one on differences first.

Also, conflict is inevitable. Who is to say that if the families had never happened that the skywalker twins and han wouldn't have fought bitterly eventually? Remember how it all started? The people you least expect to become friends with bacome your longest time best friends--while those you most expect to have around as friends will find their way away from you... Not always, but usually.
I'm an example: I had to fall-in with some dude who was in mental health, I thought he was a nutcase--the world is doomed if he ever reproduced. I wnated nothing to do with him. Since then, my 'better' friends have all dissapeared, and now I'm the uncle-never-had to dude's "nightmare" offspring. Dude and I are better and better friends all the time than my other friends ever were. We still have fights and arguments. We kicked each others' ass more than we could count. It is your resolve that truly matters. Weak people in this regard should not have relationships. Period. Force powers or not...
As for your ABC argument, point taken, but that's not reality for every family member/significant other relationship. Maybe overwhelming majority. It isn't *always* true though.
False world? And just what do *you* call real? You could call anything a false world or a real world, that doesn't make it so.
My analogy of light and dark: too far in either direction and you are blind. I'm speaking of the symbolic relationship between literally and metaphorically.
SilentScope you have points that are worhty of attention I'll say that much. Stripped of the force? What about your reality apart from SW and the computers?--There's your reality without using the force. The only difference I see for the force users is it's much harder to balance--but it *can* be done. All logic is true, but not all of the truth is logical. Indeed, attatchment can lead to the dark side. May love you that, which is evil; may hate you that, which is good. That always CAN be stopped, but sometimes it won't be stopped. The force has a dark side as do we all--and a dark will with it. Whose to say that the reign of darkness isn't the will of the force--sometimes? To sometimes be bent to another's will--that other will inevitably demise because of their appetite for power. Every being has its ups and downs, and the force is no exception!

Sith_Reven
02-05-2007, 10:06 PM
The dark side is the true scope of your emotions. It does not hold back. If you understand the sith code you will find that it is true. You are allowed to love in the dark side. It is a way to power and it becomes a short one if you can't control or comprehend it. The jedi are pacifists and so they are stagnant, static, clinging to a code designed to hold them back. To deprive a being and restrict their very feelings is punishment and unhealthy.

Darth Avlectus
02-06-2007, 05:53 AM
The dark side is the true scope of your emotions. It does not hold back. If you understand the sith code you will find that it is true. You are allowed to love in the dark side. It is a way to power and it becomes a short one if you can't control or comprehend it. The jedi are pacifists and so they are stagnant, static, clinging to a code designed to hold them back. To deprive a being and restrict their very feelings is punishment and unhealthy.

Pacifists until aggressive negotiations. So passive/ passive-aggressive.

And sith are Aggressive/ Passive aggressive.

None seem to be assertive enough, though both sides do try, and eventually fail. Not to say neutral succeeds any better/worse, more/less.
But who is anyone to judge anybody else--even with the force? But another thinking being of choice that can make a mistake.

Perhaps you are right about the sith code. However, If controling power is being a rotten being void of some kind of honor, I'd rather be a rat living in a dumpster. I know the good of power, and I also know there are more things than just power.

If preserving peace means aligning with a system that eventually undermines itself from existence, I'd rather be... as above again. I know the good of freedom, but life becomes a bit unstable.

I reflect what the tide of existence brings unto me, no more no less. Then on my own again.

MY nature in SW is one of ferrility, I don't care about power of ruling over the galaxy or proving my superiority. Simply a wish to live undisturbed and alone, be it in agony or not. Leave me alone, no problem.

It isn't so simple: there will always be some who must mingle.

I won't harm or break laws. I won't do anything unprovoked. Hell, I don't really use the force for much of anything--just to survive when fate leaves me *absolutely* no other option. Otherwise, it is dependency. Dependency is a weakness; Weakness a we all have, but weakness none the less.

The only problems with neutrality are there are cruel youngins who don't know to leave well enough alone, a sith wanting to lord itself over me or to convert me, or a jedi thinking it will change me or preach and lecture--and going into aggressive negotiations if I will not change. People who play disingenuous passive-aggressive mind games.

To stay neutral, doesn't enact much, and ultimately is ineffective where things require polarity I realize. Why take the millions or the dream lover when you can just forgo both? I know it doesn't make sense to any of you, but it doesn't have to. I don't overreact, and I resolve to repair the damage done. That's not to say we grey jedi don't lash out.

I discern and discriminate (discriminate as in choose carefully based on rational reasoning not racism or over generalizing) on emotion and logic. Sometimes the emotions are needed in order to have the resolve to do things. Inspiration.
Other times, emotins saturate and make things worse
(I.E. like anxiety) when you may need a clear mind in a certain matter. I've lost several hand to hand fights that way in real life.
Some things are better left unsaid or held back, at least for a time.

Sure one can be omnipotent,
but that doesn't mean undefeatble or eternal. Far be it from me to conform or be subserviant, but I know a fool's path when I see one, having been betrayed by people I thought I knew as a child. Also many plans never reaching fruition.

Simply because the force is with you, doesn't mean fate is always or ever in your favor. Fate is always going to be at least partially UN-KNOWABLE--I don't care how omniscient and all forseeing anyone is. It and the force intertwine but are not one and the same.

I understand both. Anyone can say that another truly doesn't understand; that does not mean anything. Another may not understand it *like you*, but that's not to say that these others are oblivious.

PoiuyWired
02-06-2007, 07:07 AM
Well, Jedis keep repeating their cycle of destruction/rebuild in history, inot unlike the sith. Even though Luke seems to be wise, he is also turning more dogmatic slowly(well thank god he still allows romance though).

Well, His Jedi Order did not last long either, splinters joining the Imps(possably), and getting sacked (yet again) by the Sith.

Maybe it is the will of the force that the eternal struggle of the Jedi/Sith continues.

On the side note: Jedi would try to denounce emotion, relying on just logic and meditation. While the Sith would rely on emotion, but they would use logic and meditation as a tool. And you wonder why again and again the Sith is able to build grand empires? Granted, these empires may be short sometimes, but same can be said of the Jedi Orders.

Perhaps the true form of Jedi is not "AN ORDER" but following the will of the force "like a fallen leave in the wind" The Jedis seem to function better and more true to the spirit without the councils and grand temples and gazillion layers of selections and dogmas and tea party. Whenever they grow big they become unwieldy and gradually wasted away. Maybe the Jedis need some kind of "Rule of the Two" also.

Granted I am ot a followed of Bane's teaching, an order growing too large has its problem. For the Sith the problem is obvious, but at least you can see it coming. For the Jedi, it would be their slow response to the world around them.

Prime
02-06-2007, 09:25 AM
The jedi are pacifistsThe Jedi are not pacifists in any way.

pac·i·fism
–noun
1. opposition to war or violence of any kind.
2. refusal to engage in military activity because of one's principles or beliefs.

Salzella
02-06-2007, 09:42 AM
The Jedi are not pacifists in any way.

pac·i·fism
–noun
1. opposition to war or violence of any kind.
2. refusal to engage in military activity because of one's principles or beliefs.
Well then you agree with what Atton talks about in TSL about the hypocrisy of the Jedi? because in theory, they do not fight, go to war. Or perhaps they disguise it as defending the innocent.

Prime
02-06-2007, 11:07 AM
Well then you agree with what Atton talks about in TSL about the hypocrisy of the Jedi? Can you give me the quote or the jist? I don't quite remember it offhand. I will be happy to comment then! :)

because in theory, they do not fight, go to war. But they do fight and do go to war. They pretty much always have. They did before the KOTOR timeframe and they did afterwards. Clearly they are trained to fight, and do fight. They are kind of like police officers. They always try to solve a problem peacefully, but they will use deadly force if necessary, and don't hesitate to do so.

In the case of the Jedi and the Mandalorain Wars, they didn't jump in not because they don't want to fight, but because they weren't sure it was the best course of action at that time. They felt it may make matters worse instead of better.

Or perhaps they disguise it as defending the innocent.They don't disquise anything. The Jedi are not moral beings and do not make decisions on whether it is "good" or "bad" in a moral sense.

jonathan7
02-06-2007, 11:09 AM
The dark side is the true scope of your emotions. It does not hold back. If you understand the sith code you will find that it is true. You are allowed to love in the dark side. It is a way to power and it becomes a short one if you can't control or comprehend it. The jedi are pacifists and so they are stagnant, static, clinging to a code designed to hold them back. To deprive a being and restrict their very feelings is punishment and unhealthy.

Thats a load of poo... moral relativism is utter crap... I quote "To deprive a being and restrict their feelings is punishment and unhealthy" does that mean pedophiles should be allowed to just run free and do what they like because the law restricts their feelings? Humans are predisposed to commit acts of evil, just look at history... Hitler, Stalin etc is what happens in places which develop this approach. As for DS people being able to love they are not capable of such emotion, the very essence of being DS is putting yourself above everyone else and thinking everyone else is around for you to use and further yourself. By nature this would suffocate love... Love is putting another person ahead of you, and putting their needs ahead of yours a DS person would never do this. A DS person would view a person they 'Love' as someone to pleasure them and do wha they want, that is not Love its treating someone as an object.

Sith_Reven
02-06-2007, 11:56 AM
Alright jonathan7 you have me there. The pediphile analogy is ok. But what I am getting at is that if someone coops up there emotions inside eventually it drives them nuts and they boil over.

JediMaster12
02-06-2007, 02:06 PM
Well, Jedis keep repeating their cycle of destruction/rebuild in history, inot unlike the sith...Maybe it is the will of the force that the eternal struggle of the Jedi/Sith continues.
Everything is cyclical in nature. It is historic belief that the cycle continues, light battles dark, good battles evil. In a way this is balance. You can't have one without the other. This same priciple can be applied to nature like the sun and monn. The day conquers night for a time and vice versa.

Humans are predisposed to commit acts of evil...
This sounds like something out of the Bible and the belief that we are born in sin, live in sin and die in sin. I can see your point in using historical figures. People have the potential to be evil but again that reverts back to the power of choice. As what has been said before, choices define who we are. I know that the choices that I have made make me appear as a bookworm with writing talent to some, an annoying brat to my brother, etc. How we are perceived bears influence on how we view ourselves.

Imoras
02-06-2007, 03:00 PM
Overzealous and preachy religious fanatics

jonathan7
02-06-2007, 03:28 PM
Alright jonathan7 you have me there. The pediphile analogy is ok. But what I am getting at is that if someone coops up there emotions inside eventually it drives them nuts and they boil over.

Indeed, I wasnt advocating the Jedi code either I agree with some of their philosophies such as using violence only when you havent been the one to start it; e.g. I don't agree with pre-emptive strikes. Thats my personal belief and feel free to disagree :) Personally I am a Christian and too me the Sith code seems alot like what modern Satanists believe (e.g. rule of the powerful over the weak etc) Back to point it is dangerous to bottle up emotions too the point the Jedi Code does... For example look at the number of pedophile priests within the Catholic Church, it is a much higher prevelance than in a 'normal' population because the Priests have to contain to an unatural degree of emotion. My argument more was that some emotions should be controlled such as some people wanting to abuse children, or serial killers, or bank robbers etc. So personally I am against parts of both codes, but I side much more with the Jedi, I'm sure given ur name you'll go for the sith ;)

This sounds like something out of the Bible and the belief that we are born in sin, live in sin and die in sin. I can see your point in using historical figures. People have the potential to be evil but again that reverts back to the power of choice. As what has been said before, choices define who we are. I know that the choices that I have made make me appear as a bookworm with writing talent to some, an annoying brat to my brother, etc. How we are perceived bears influence on how we view ourselves.

Thats probably because I am a devout Christian ;) so thats my belief, hence the fact I believe that, if you so wish we can carry on the debate if you so wish but its kind of off topic.

Overzealous and preachy religious fanatics

Is that aimed at me or the Jedi? I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me, neither would I say that I am preachey I enjoy debating but I would argue this; My argument is more against relativism than it is people disagreing or debating a point. E.g. There either is a God or there isn't, I personally don't like the whole, its ok for you to believe that but I believe this... its abit like me saying the world is square and you arguing the world is a sphere, only one of us can be right so I dont understand how poeple think to opposing beliefs can both be right (e.g. Atheism and Christianity). Welcome to the Forums btw :waive1:

Imoras
02-06-2007, 03:46 PM
It was about the jedi

SilentScope001
02-06-2007, 06:11 PM
I am an ethical relativist, so I see the need to intervene and make a small defense of it.

You see the pedophile as evil, but does the pedohpile see himself as evil? No, he thinks that what he is doing is justified.

That is the core of ethical revalitism. That it is all relative what is right and what is wrong, and it all depends on the mind. You can aruge that the pedophile's mind is messed up (and I'll agree with you), but that still does not change the fact that ACCORDING to the pedophile, what he is doing is right.

Think about it. What if everyone believes that murder is right? Everyone? Then...murder becomes right. We define ethics and beliefs, and nothing is truly objective, everything is subjective.

It is only a theory of course. In the pedophile case, most people (expect the pedophiles) see the pedophiles as wrong, but what about other...shall we say...more delicate issues? Say, War in Iraq, Abortion, Sucidice, maybe even terrorism/feedom fighting? One person's sin is another person's gateway to Heaven.

Now that this is settled...let go back to here:

Overzealous and preachy religious fanatics

Wow. Most preceptive quote I have ever seen.

All this time, we were arguging over what the Jedi are, if they are good or not...but what if their entire religion is false? Then...oops. Remember, the Sith are a splinter group of the Jedi, so if the Jedi and the Sith are wrong about the Force, then what?

Don't tell me that the Jedi and the Sith have revaltory knowledge from The Force, having great holy books handed down by Messengers of the Force that allows us to know what is right and wrong...because it hasn't happened. Nobody knows much about the Force, and in the end, you have to accept either the Jedi or the Sith...or some other crazy religious creed (Horray for the Zhenion Sha!). In the end, it comes down to what you choose to believe, and who you trust.

Man, no wonder there are still skeptics in the Star Wars universe (Mira, Han Solo).

stoffe
02-06-2007, 06:40 PM
Mod note: This discussion was starting to branch off in a direction that had little to do with the topic of this thread. I've split those posts into a separate thread, found here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=175384), if you want to continue that discussion.

Imoras
02-06-2007, 07:20 PM
Man, no wonder there are still skeptics in the Star Wars universe (Mira, Han Solo).

My favourite characters :D
Along with Jolee

Anyway i think the Sith got it right
I mean they're not portrayed as some weird religious cult like the jedi
They're just doing whatever they feel like
My kind of ppl :D
Although great deal of them seem to be egocentrics who suffer from megalomania and are extremely violent
As if most of the Sith got the Sith philosophy wrong
They say it themselves that being a Sith is all about doing what you want, taking the force as a gift instead of a burden and abandoning all the restrictions the Jedi attempt to force on every Force user
But the authors decide that every1 who isn't a control freak and religious fanatic must be crazy and evil killing machine and so all Sith are portrayed that way
I don't like it

Nancy Allen``
02-08-2007, 07:09 PM
Jedi are human, or alien, just like everybody else. They have human feelings, hurt and bleed just like anybody. Their disguishing characteristics, apart from obvious skill with a lightsaber and force powers, is that most of them try and live like monks. Harsh? They try and deny their human characteristics to become devine. Is part of that arrogance? I would be more inclined to say they are trying to be the best they can be. Jedi are cool, and with few exceptions (Vrook, Atris) good people, but just me personally I prefer someone who doesn't deny their personality. There are Jedi who either don't have a handle on controlling their personality (Bastila) or simply choose not to (Jolee, Kyle Katarn) and in a way they are better for it.

JediMaster12
02-08-2007, 10:37 PM
Overzealous and preachy religious fanatics
Excuse me? You guys carried the conversation in that direction. I merely observed what was said and responded to it. If you want to define this for me please do so in the thread that stoffe made for that.

Thats probably because I am a devout Christian so thats my belief, hence the fact I believe that, if you so wish we can carry on the debate if you so wish but its kind of off topic.
Actually it was relevant in that I have been emphasizing that choice dictates the direction a person wants to go in whether they be Jedi or Sith. We do have choice and the moral compass can point us in the right direction but it doesn't make us go there. Look at Anakin, he chose to do what he did and hence became a Sith. He may have had good intentions but sometimes the worse things happene even when they are done with the best of intentions.

Jedi are human, or alien, just like everybody else. They have human feelings, hurt and bleed just like anybody. Their disguishing characteristics, apart from obvious skill with a lightsaber and force powers, is that most of them try and live like monks.
Yes the Jedi are people. Maybe the idea was for them to achieve a certain type of harmony with everything around them. I admit that by the time we get to TPM, the council began arrogant. I said it before, when you have centuries of tradition to back things up, it is very hard to institute change.

Imoras
02-09-2007, 01:05 PM
Excuse me? You guys carried the conversation in that direction. I merely observed what was said and responded to it. If you want to define this for me please do so in the thread that stoffe made for that.


Doh
As i SAID i refered to the jedi
I didn't read back on the topic so i have NO IDEA what you guys were talking about
So i didn't carry any conversation in any direction
Why everybody assumes i am talking to them!? I was just answering the thread question