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View Full Version : LS Double-bladed and DS dual penalties?


lukeiamyourdad
12-15-2005, 09:49 AM
Let's settle this with a poll.

This is the idea posted by Darth Windu:

- Impose LS/DS alignment modifiers on different types of Lightsabre much like the current system in use with Force powers, with positive or negative modifiers for attack strength and hit rating. Double-bladed sabres would give bonuses to DS characters, with negative modifiers for LS players. Two single-bladed lightsabres would have the same modifiers in reverse, giving bonuses for LS and negative modifiers for DS. Single-bladed lightsabres would have no modifiers.

To put it simply:

- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user
- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user
- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user
- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user

The question is is this a good idea for gameplay?

IMO, penalties are used as a deterrent. LS double-bladed users are now disadvantaged, which is unacceptable for myself since I am a LS double-bladed saber user.

Prime
12-15-2005, 10:33 AM
I don't like it. I voted NO.

It just doesn't really make any sense.

ilwugoalie
12-15-2005, 11:22 AM
I don't like it. I voted NO.

It just doesn't really make any sense.

I agree, if there is to be a penalty for using certain weapons, it needs to be a penalty against an individual who doesnt have teh skills. Not against them becasue they are light or dark.

With this Idea, the only person who ever would have had any bonus in the movies would have been Darth Maul.

Bad Idea

Cygnus Q'ol
12-15-2005, 11:29 AM
I'm having trouble understanding the point of this.
So then, all DS jedi will carry staffs and all LS Jedi will carry duals.

...and this makes it fun how?

RobQel-Droma
12-15-2005, 11:32 AM
^He is basing it on the movies, saying that you never see anybody but Sith (one) with saberstaffs, and only Jedi with dual.

You mostly all know what I am going to say if you have seen his thread: NO.

Prime
12-15-2005, 11:40 AM
THat's not true anyway. Bastilla has a souble-bladed saber, and Ventress uses dual sabers...

Cygnus Q'ol
12-15-2005, 11:46 AM
THat's not true anyway. Bastilla has a souble-bladed saber, and Ventress uses dual sabers...

I think he meant movies. Darth Maul in 'Menace', and Anakin in II and III.

YertyL
12-15-2005, 12:17 PM
I do not believe this to be either "realistic" or practical, so a clear "No!" (besides I like being LS and using staff myself :p ).
However, maybe you could formulate the poll question a bit more neutrally .... "Do you want a lot of penalties?" asks for the answer "No" ...

Jae Onasi
12-15-2005, 02:02 PM
Voting no....
Hey, I'm (relatively) practical. I like having full upgrades in any saber. With double-bladed, you only have 1 set of upgrades for the 2 blades, dual you have 2 sets (1 for each LS). Nearly all my characters fight with dual instead of dbl-blade because of the upgrade bonuses with dual compared to dbl-blade. I wouldn't want to assign alignment penalties based on saber type. It's the character that's DS/LS, not the lightsaber. :-)

MdKnightR
12-15-2005, 02:58 PM
Nope! I have played lightside with a doublesaber before. I wouldn't want a penalty if I had the urge to do so again.

Darth333
12-15-2005, 03:07 PM
Why would a non-evil character automatically suck with a double bladed saber? You don't need to be evil to learn how to use a staff. I don't see any logic in penalizing LS or DS users depending on whether they use double bladed or dual sabers. So no.

Also, since Kotor is a relatively short game, I don't see the point in adding too many penalties and such. It would be imposible for the player to change alignment and it would be annoying more than anything else.

Edit:typo

lukeiamyourdad
12-15-2005, 04:36 PM
I do not believe this to be either "realistic" or practical, so a clear "No!" (besides I like being LS and using staff myself :p ).
However, maybe you could formulate the poll question a bit more neutrally .... "Do you want a lot of penalties?" asks for the answer "No" ...

Yeah, perhaps I should have added the word "bonus" too, since it does involve ome bonuses, but that was made clear in the first post.

FiEND_138
12-15-2005, 08:05 PM
Why would a non-evil character automatically suck with a double blade saber? You don't need to be evil to learn how to use a staff. I don't see any logic in penalizing LS or DS users depending on whether they use double bladed or dual sabers. So no.
Nods head in agreement.

RobQel-Droma
12-15-2005, 08:06 PM
Wow. 16 to 2 votes. I'm so impressed that this even got more than one vote.

Jeff
12-15-2005, 08:33 PM
I said No, because in that time period it is obvious that using a double-bladed saber was acceptable for Jedi, as the Jedi masters did it. And I think it would be silly for DS users to suffer for using 2 lightsabers, when it is more radical for LS users to do so.

Char Ell
12-15-2005, 11:03 PM
I'm with the NO camp. I don't think I've ever played a character with a double-bladed lightsaber because that's not my weapon of choice. However I don't buy into the argument that a double-bladed lightsaber is inherently a DS weapon and so I don't think a LS character should be penalized for using one.

Hallucination
12-16-2005, 12:41 AM
No. I don't have much else to say.
@Anyone who said 'yes': Care to explain?

RedHawke
12-16-2005, 01:05 AM
I also say a resounding No, but I do so from an RPG Rules perspective above everything else.

Weapons cannot be aligned one way or another, they are merely tools.

"Magic" weapons, like Sabers with LS/DS aligned crystals in them can be LS or DS, but since you can clearly take the crystal out and still use the saber no matter your alignment, this renders this argument moot. ;)

YertyL
12-16-2005, 04:14 AM
http://blogs.starwars.com/099-09765/4/comments
Seems like we're not the only ones discussing this :p
Btw. a good point mentioned in this blog is that the double-bladed saber was first used (& created) by Exar Kun, thus making it a "Sith" lightsaber as it was first used by a Sith, not because it is restricted to Sith.

Darth Windu
12-16-2005, 04:41 AM
Okay, being the originator of the idea, in these forums anyway, I'll go ahead and expalin why I think it's a good idea. Incidently, all evidence I'm using is from the films, not EU.

1. Only Sith use the double-blade. One quarter of all Sith Lords surveyed replied 'yes, I do use a double-bladed lightsabre'. The other three use the signel-blade.

2. Only Jedi use twin single-blades. In both AotC and RotS, Anakin uses two blades. In addition, in the Execution Arena in AotC, there are around 3-5 Jedi fighting with two single-bladed lightsabres

3. The offical Star Wars sight lists the double-blade as "Sith Lightsaber"

4. The double-blade is more aggressive. As was pointed out by luke in another thread, having the double-blade makes reflecting blaster bolts more difficult, especially when compared to twin single-blades. Hence, the double-blade is a more offensive, while twin blades are more defensive

5. It provides more of a distinction between LS and DS. Sure, there are some differences, but I feel they need to be more pronounced

6. It should be pointed out that in no way would this resrict weapon choice. LS Master's could still wield a double-blad, while DS Master's could still wield twin single-blades. The only differences would be that, like using DS powers as a LS player, there would be modifiers imposed.

Alkonium
12-16-2005, 09:53 AM
True, but who's to say there aren't aggresive Jedi that aren't corrupted? I, for one prefer double bladed and light side.

JediMaster12
12-16-2005, 12:12 PM
I said no because you only get penalties on the hits if you don't have the necessary feats. I play smart to make sure I get the two weapon fighting feats because it increases my chances of a hit and there is the reduction in penalties. Also the type of weapon you use affects the hit points. So I say no no and NO to this DS/LS penalty because I've also seen dark Jedi wielding two single blades.

Prime
12-16-2005, 12:21 PM
Incidently, all evidence I'm using is from the films, not EU.But since the games are in the EU, shouldn't the EU be taken into consideration?

Young Outlaw
12-16-2005, 06:11 PM
I voted no cause i don't care. I always focus my character on using the force. I only have light sabers equiped for the stat bonuses from the crystals and for blaster deflection. I never attack with a weapon. They could add double-bladed lightsaber form for a darksided prestige class and tow bladed light saber form for a lightsided prestige class

lukeiamyourdad
12-16-2005, 06:21 PM
Incidently, all evidence I'm using is from the films, not EU.

Are you sure? ;)

1. Only Sith use the double-blade. One quarter of all Sith Lords surveyed replied 'yes, I do use a double-bladed lightsabre'. The other three use the signel-blade.

Exactly. 1 out of 4.

2. Only Jedi use twin single-blades. In both AotC and RotS, Anakin uses two blades. In addition, in the Execution Arena in AotC, there are around 3-5 Jedi fighting with two single-bladed lightsabres

Actually, Anakin just picked up another saber on the run, that simply cannot be counted as a dual wielder as he is regularly a single wielder.


3. The offical Star Wars sight lists the double-blade as "Sith Lightsaber"

EU.


4. The double-blade is more aggressive. As was pointed out by luke in another thread, having the double-blade makes reflecting blaster bolts more difficult, especially when compared to twin single-blades. Hence, the double-blade is a more offensive, while twin blades are more defensive


Get rid of Jedi Weapon Masters and Guardians. Hell, let's get rid of the whole offensive side to the Jedi. They can't attack, just stand and resist assaults.


5. It provides more of a distinction between LS and DS. Sure, there are some differences, but I feel they need to be more pronounced

They are more then pronounced. Nobody needs to have more distinction.

6. It should be pointed out that in no way would this resrict weapon choice. LS Master's could still wield a double-blad, while DS Master's could still wield twin single-blades. The only differences would be that, like using DS powers as a LS player, there would be modifiers imposed.

I don't think that you understand that penalties like these in RPGs are often used as deterrents.
It would restrict the choices one can make, just like how Force Powers work now.
You cannot use Force Lightning as a LS Master, but they don't want you to so that's why they put restrictions in the form of penalties.

It's like saying that there's no restriction to going full melee with a consular. There's none, nothing stops you from going melee, but perhaps you'd rather play as a guardian since you have lower VP.

That's what penalties are for, forcing your hand without the words "restricted to X".

Arátoeldar
12-16-2005, 06:34 PM
Having played through JA, KotOR and TSL multiple times I have used single, dual and staff sabers. Dual sabers is my least favorite saber combination.

NO :smash:

RedHawke
12-17-2005, 12:59 AM
Incidently, all evidence I'm using is from the films, not EU.
See, this is why you fail, your first foray should have been into the D20 Star Wars RPG Book, not the Movies or EU. Because in a discussion like you started about what is essentially Game Mechanics, and in this area the D20 RPG System is Cannon over even the Movies.

As Prime pointed out this is the EU we are talking about here. ;)

5. It provides more of a distinction between LS and DS. Sure, there are some differences, but I feel they need to be more pronounced
But the D20 RPG rules don't! Darth Windu I have noticed you haven't adknowledged this fact, you really should. ;)

6. It should be pointed out that in no way would this resrict weapon choice. LS Master's could still wield a double-blad, while DS Master's could still wield twin single-blades. The only differences would be that, like using DS powers as a LS player, there would be modifiers imposed.
It is is fairly clear from reading your posts Darth Windu you haven't played many PnP style RPG's have you?

You want (Negative) Modifiers for wielding a weapon type from alignment, sorry this isn't done to a normal class of weapons. You are indeed restricting what people want to do in a game by imposing unreasonable modifiers.

See this is an RPG, and as such has a rules system, sometimes the source material for an RPG has to be deviated from to fit an RPG Rules system, this is common practice in RPG circles. So Double Bladed Sabers are not affiliated with the DS, nor will they ever be in this system. The saber itself is simply a weapon in the eyes of the game system, nothing more. Remember you aren't the only one who will play this game, so you have to implement a system for the game that will please the masses. D20 is no exception to this.

If I have paid for the proper Feats/Weapon Specialisations to use a particular weapon I and a vast majority of gamers want... no I will say demand to use that weapon free of any further additional penalties. You can clearly see this in effect in the D20 Star Wars RPG book in that you must take certain Feats to wield a weapon free of penalties, and even gain small bonuses, what you propose will lessen the function and purpose of the Feat system, and the rest of the game itself.

Why should I spend three to five Feats to specialise in a particular weapon if you still are going to have negative modifiers from alignment thusly making the bonuses from the said feats null and void?

This, very much so, is where you are limiting people.

Hallucination
12-17-2005, 01:19 AM
Sometimes I think Redhawke is only here to protect all D20 RPGs from those who wish to change them....

RedHawke
12-17-2005, 05:15 AM
Sometimes I think Redhawke is only here to protect all D20 RPGs from those who wish to change them....
Sometimes I think that posters need to read all of a thread before commenting.

Aurora Merlow
12-17-2005, 07:05 AM
Negative, i'm always LS and sometimes like playing with Double bladed lightsabre. Plus there's no reason why a lightsided characters should be worse than darksided characters using a DB lightsabre

Darca Lar
12-17-2005, 10:40 PM
I don't like it. I voted NO.

It just doesn't really make any sense.
Yea, I read it and just blanked out, make a bit more sense dude.

Hallucination
12-17-2005, 11:38 PM
Sometimes I think that posters need to read all of a thread before commenting.
Yeah, that too. But it seems no matter how many you and other people in their right minds stop 2 more rise to take their place.

Darth Windu
12-18-2005, 01:24 AM
RedHawke - I don't even know what a PnP is. After all, I'm just looking at this from a game-specific point of view. I really don't know much about RPG game mechanics etc, as KotOR and KotOR2 are the only RPG's I've ever played.

RedHawke
12-18-2005, 02:18 AM
RedHawke - I don't even know what a PnP is. After all, I'm just looking at this from a game-specific point of view. I really don't know much about RPG game mechanics etc, as KotOR and KotOR2 are the only RPG's I've ever played.
Ahhhhhhhh! Ok! ;) "That is why you fail" :yodac:

See this game series is based on Wizards of the Coast's D20 Paper and Pencil (PnP) RPG System, and as such has to adhere to that system, in PnP RPG's you have to allow for great player freedom in the areas of creativity and character concepts, if you make a system too stifling or penalty ridden and players will simply just go and play another game that isn't as restricting.

If a player wants to have a Jedi Guardian that wields a Purple Double Bladed Saber, you cannot tell them they cannot, or unduely penalise them, you are interfereing with "their" character concept, this is something that game system makers really want to avoid. As such you cannot say so-and-so weapon is evil and so-and-so weapon is good and they have penalties, the only time you can do this is when "Magic" is involved, and usually the player has a choice at that point in the game.

Example: Regular Long Swords are just tools. While a Long Sword +5 Holy Avenger is a definate "Good" item, as well as an Long Sword +5 Unholy Reaver is a definate "Evil" item, but all aligned weapons must be magical in order to be aligned at all.

So in KotOR, a Lightsaber is just a tool, the only parts that have a possible alignment are the power crystals we put into the saber. But unlike D20 D&D where magic weaponry is more permanant, saber crystals can be removed, so this reinforces the saber being a non-aligned item.

In short, your idea whilst upholding SW Cannon, cannot be done in the RPG game system. Because in all game mechanics issues the D20 Game System can even override the Cannon source materials. It is commonly done in RPG circles too! ;)

I hope this clairfies! :D

Emperor Devon
12-18-2005, 02:36 AM
I voted no. While the greatest people to use double-bladed lightsabers were on the Dark Side, there's simply no reason for the Light Siders to get a penalty.

Kain
12-18-2005, 06:07 AM
Hell no. I'm a DS character who uses dual sabers and if it gets me penalized I'm gonna get super pissed.

Darca Lar
12-18-2005, 04:43 PM
Well using two weapons or a double bladed weapon in a fight will still drop your evade compared to fighting with one single sided weapon. Course if you master it then the penalty will be a lot less.

jedi3112
12-21-2005, 12:42 PM
I'd say NO.

First there's no reason why LS characters shouldn't use double-bladed sabers, and why DS characters shouldn't use 2 sabers. Indeed in the the movies they sometimes do, but the movies don't mention any kind of restriction on the use of sabers. You could also restrict red sabers to the Sith for that matter.

Also there were only 4 Sith Lords in the movies, I hardly consider that a large enough population to represent ALL the Sith. And the Sith were more numerous in the era were talking about.

It takes place a long time before the movies, because the rules stated in the movies don't apply in this era.

The Lightsaber is actually a combination of it's components. So upgrade items such as crystals, and perhaaps the extra upgrade items introduced in K2 (with a good reason as to why) can be restricted to LS or DS. However by removing these items from the saber the restriction should also disappear. The lightsaber itself is just a tool.

2 sabers aren't always more defensive, you can slash away with 2 sabers more easily then with 1 saber, or even a dual-bladed saber.

JediMaster12
12-21-2005, 01:14 PM
Kudos to you! I don't like the idea of LS/DS restrictions on the lightsabers. It doesn't make sense.