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Servercat
12-17-2005, 08:32 PM
This is a bit of random debate I have with some friends, which was sparked mainly by the clone lab and droid factory sequences in AoTC. So I thought I would bring it here and see what you all think. Our debate is, that it seems rather weird that the CIS could lose the war.

Sheer mass of numbers and cheaper logistics would suggest that the CIS could surmount anything the Republic could muster. The clone troopers which appraise the bulk of the Republic's army, while superior fighters in terms of skills and tactics, take an extremely long period of time to grow and train.

Even assuming the 'accelerated' maturation techniques could bring a clone from zygote to adult in a year, then proceeded to hand said Clone a blaster and told them to go shoot something. It still makes them vastly more irreplaceable then the ranks amongst the Droid army. That's not even taking into account, the insane cost of growing and feeding millions upon millions of troopers. This isn't even taking into account, that the fact that since the Clones are humans, they are vulnerable to disease, sickness and have to treated for injuries prior and after an engagement.

Contrawise, excluding the more advanced Droid models (like Droidekas and IG-100's), the droids can be produced en mass, rapidly.(In say, a month at worst) They require no more maintenance other then to keep them operational. If they are damaged or destroyed in combat, oh well, they can be recycled cheaply for new droids.

The only real logical swing factors, it seems to me, are the Jedi and Chancellor(Emperor) Palpatine. The Jedi would undoubtably increase CIS casualties, and operating costs but in the end would eventually get trampled by the vastly superior CIS numbers.

The only really thing that would cripple and likely end the CIS ambitions are decapitations of CIS leadership..unfortunately, unless you count an occasional hot headed Padawan or Knight, I don't really see Jedi doing this. *shrug*

Which means, that any orders for decapitations would have to come from the main Republic Military, which are under the control of Palpatine. While it was Palpatine’s intention to create war, so that he could gain control, I got the impression he didn’t really care which Army actually won control of the Republic. In fact, it seems more in Sith nature to see which army was the strongest, which is more logically the CIS.

But those are just my thoughts. How about you guys?

Commander Obi-Wan
12-17-2005, 08:36 PM
They lost because the "leader" of the CIS is the Supreme Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Didious, which is the "leader" of the Republic. It was a deception, so he could become the ruler of the universe.

TK-8252
12-17-2005, 08:52 PM
The droids lose hands down because they have no leadership in the field. No leadership = fail.

They did have Grevious who started turning the tables, but he was put in command too late in the war for him to win it.

hk47
12-18-2005, 06:54 PM
the chancellor should have kept the droid army it was winning aswell

SirLancelot
12-18-2005, 07:38 PM
The clones are simply superior soldiers. They were the pinnacle of military perfection in terms of their training and development. Not to mention, clonetroopers could think creatively, unlike droids, who for the most part, went off a series of preprogrammed instructions.

Also, total reliance on a central command entity was a liabilty.

hk47
12-19-2005, 01:36 PM
it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant

TK-8252
12-19-2005, 05:11 PM
it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant

Your post fails.

MachineCult
12-19-2005, 05:18 PM
it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant

I agree with TK, try and make some sense next time.

Palpatine and Dooku created the Clone Wars, Sidious was in charge of the CIS and Palpatine was in charge of the Republic. It wasn't a real war and the Army of the Republic were always going to win, how could you possibly not have realised this Servercat?

Servercat
12-20-2005, 02:09 AM
As a plot point, we always knew the Clones would win. They had to. The CIS couldn't win at the end of Episode 3...unless the Storm troopers in 4-6 were secretly droids ^_^

What am I talking about, is the vast outclassing of the CIS versus the Clones.

Lets look at the advantages of each

Clones:

1. More flexible and can innovate with more frequency and success.
2. Better Leadership, (mainly costing of the Jedi on the ground fighting along side of them).


Droids:

1. Vastly Superior Numbers
2. Greater Coordination and ability to adapt to changes on a widespread level faster then Clones
3. Superior Armament
4. Superior Logistics (Troopers are cheaper. Do not require food, or aid. Meaning more troopers and ammunition per deployment)
5. Ranks can be replenished quickly.


Even with the great benefits of the Jedi, the Droids have the clear advantage. They are more heavily armed, overwhelming numbers, and superior logistics.

The only true logical factor in how the CIS could lose (aside from making the plot work ^_^) is the Sith i.e. Palpatine.

But here in lies the problem. Palpatine's goal is to gain control of the 'republic' (read Galaxy) and destroy the Jedi. It doesn't really matter which army he supports, he would still gain control, no matter who wins.

The Clones win, he gains the respect and love of the Senate and they convert into the Empire.

The CIS wins, he gains control of the dominant military and economic force in the Galaxy.


It's win/win scenario for Palpatine. So it seems to me, at least so far, that the only reason the CIS loses is merely to fulfil plot points for the series. :O

El Sitherino
12-20-2005, 12:46 PM
You're missing the fundemental part, he has to convert Anakin. Being the leader of the seperatists, he couldn't do that.

Servercat
12-20-2005, 02:47 PM
True enough, but that's a plot reason. I bet given a little time and energy he could have done it even as leader of the CIS. It would merely be a matter of saying that the Republic and Jedi had fallen from the proper path and the Seperatists were the true peacemakers of the Galaxy.

El Sitherino
12-20-2005, 03:48 PM
Except Anakin is loyal to the Republic that saved him. That's why he follows Palpatine, he believes Palpatine is protecting the republic.

MachineCult
12-20-2005, 05:56 PM
The Kaminoan stated that the Clones were "...vastly superior to Droids."

The Droids were mindless, they didn't have any logic at all, they relied on numbers because more Droids would be destroyed in a battle.

Palpatine created the CIS, he is in control of everything, he would win either way?!
The Clones were dominant.

Servercat
12-20-2005, 08:07 PM
I think that the Kaminion would have said that regardless ^_^ Backing their product

The Droids are no more innovative, then their programming and the orbiting controller(s). It doesn't make them mindless or stupid, just means they lack creativity.

In addition to their mass numbers, we see the droids absorb more damage then a clone. They take 2 or 3 direct blaster hits, limb's get hacked off and they still continue firing with Star Wars-esque accuracy. ^_^ Same can't be said about the Clones.

While the basic Clone Troopers and the Roger-Roger's are equivilantly armed blaster wise, the speciality Droids are more heavily armed/armored and more capable then any Clone. A Solo Droideka can even go toe to toe with a Jedi, and even has a great chance of winning the fight. What clone variation can say the same?

Which in lies the CIS's greatest asset. They can match the best the Republic has, and can replace their loses faster and cheaper then the Republic. It takes years to replace even a lowly Padawan, and the CIS can create an equivilant force in month or more.

And to rub salt on the wound, it wouldn't cost the CIS anymore then the fund it takes to create an automated factory like we see in Ep.2. On a good moon/planet said factory could be totatly self suffienct. Much like the factory, you learn about in the Vader's Fist journal's in SW:BF2.

MachineCult
12-20-2005, 08:27 PM
What clone variation can say the same?
ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos.

Look you're obviously wrong, the films and Databank make this clear. The Grand army of the Republic are Elite Troopers, clones of the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy, the CIS are mindless... drones. The Clone Troopers were Far superior to the battle droid armies of the era...

Unlike the Clones, even the Super Battle Droids, ...like their inferior predecessors, have very rudimentary programming and are poor at formulating attack plans.

Seriphyn
12-21-2005, 03:08 PM
Your post fails.

Easy guys, our friend here has only just turned 10! :p

MachineCult
12-21-2005, 03:59 PM
I can't believe how many really young people are on this forum.

Nedak
01-02-2006, 02:23 PM
10?! He did not have any spelling errors (for what I saw) and that is good for 10. Also how do you know he is 10?

MachineCult
01-02-2006, 05:20 PM
10?! He did not have any spelling errors (for what I saw) and that is good for 10. Also how do you know he is 10?

HK47 is who he was talking about, he made a few mistakes and his post didn't make any sense.

Nedak
01-02-2006, 05:42 PM
Thats true

arkodeon
01-28-2006, 03:32 PM
Except Anakin is loyal to the Republic that saved him. That's why he follows Palpatine, he believes Palpatine is protecting the republic.

You know, that always bugged me. The Jedi were the ones who saved him, yet look what he does to show gratitude. ):

He fails.

PoiuyWired
05-03-2006, 09:25 PM
Ok, its not which army is going to win, its which army the Sith WANTS to be the winner.

Palpy is a pro-human person, and CIS is non-human oriented in terms of ownership and major sponsors. Obviously palpy will want the clones to win instead.

Also defeating the CIS would make great media work concerning non-human aliens are evil, rallying more "good human" to palpy's side.

It really is that simple. Though I think Doku may actually WANT to win the war and take the Throne by himself.

Shok_Tinoktin
05-04-2006, 04:32 AM
I think there are several reasons why Palpatine would want the Republic to prevail, rather than the CIS. One is that the Republic has a pre-existing bureaucracy in place to control the galaxy. It is much easier to phase this out in favor a more direct method (grand moffs, moffs, etc). Another is that he wanted the popular support of the people. If he gains control of the Republic by force (CIS victory), then the galaxy will be a conquered people, who are more likely to lash out in rebellion. By thwarting the enemy (Republic victory), he becomes a hero, and the general populace actually want him to rule the galaxy.

Redtech
05-04-2006, 09:23 AM
Well, this is Star Wars, I mean, the Iraqi insurgency could do better.

Ultimately, Grievous ended up with a powerful fleet over a poorly defended coruscant, now, if I was in his shoes, I'd have nuked it. No leadership=end of war.

arkodeon
05-04-2006, 09:38 AM
The only person in the CIS who knew Palpatine was Sidious was Dooku, I don't believe any other droid/general knew. Therefore, I don't know why Grievous DIDN'T inflict more damage on Coruscant. Sure, Dooku might have said "Don't do it," but after Dooku died, I'd get mad and order all Turbolasers to fire on the planet.

Heck, he could have even fired on the Jedi Temple if he didn't want to REALLY disobey the commander. Dooku wouldn't be able to object; he was a Sith, and it would have looked REALLY suspicious.

Redtech
05-04-2006, 09:44 AM
True that. But remember, this IS Star Wars. You want a realistic war, we're in the wrong place. Heck, even the Breen Managed to kick Starfleet butt when they invaded Earth, and that was a hit/run!

PoiuyWired
05-04-2006, 04:08 PM
Well no kidding. I mean if you have droids half as smart as that you would rule the space combats. W/o need of life support system you can basically just make legless droids with jet engines attached to their bums and a huge proton topedo attached to their nose. A lot cheaper but much much more effective en messe. You basically don't need a "ship" for many things, just a huge hyperdrive with holes/tubes loaded up with these things. Ok, maybe a few other warships and freighters(with lasers) and bombers and transports.

Being droids are also great planetside. Ignoring some more simple biological needs is a plus, but it also mean you can make every every grunt a biochemical warfare agent. You know droids don't get sick or anything.

POINT: even according to starwars world view, CIS is still at least on par with the clones, if not better. Clones winning the war is more of a political schemeing solution than anything else.

Prime
05-04-2006, 04:40 PM
The ridiculous part is the apparently canon number of only 3 million clones from Kamino. That simply shouldn't work and the CIS should have walked all over them.

Kurgan
05-05-2006, 06:45 AM
Yeah, the EU has frankly turned the whole situation completely ridiculous. Essentially they are asking you to believe that say, one Delta Force soldier could take on all the soldiers of the entire earth... and win. I don't care how incompetent the soldiers of the entire earth are... that's just unbelievable!

To make sense of the scenes I just ignore the EU stuff, and assume there are a lot more clones already out there than implied by the movie and with lots of support troops as well (but you need lots of clones, you can't call it the Clone War if only 1% of your troops are clones, can you?).

PoiuyWired
05-05-2006, 08:35 AM
well actually, I alwys think its the clones who are doing the majority of the fighting. Support personel and such are still filled mostly by non-clones.

Darth Alec
05-05-2006, 10:09 AM
In episode 2 they said 1.2 million UNITS, what if one unit is 100 or 1000 clones, that would even the odds slightly. But they would still be smashed.

Prime
05-05-2006, 04:08 PM
Yeah, the EU has frankly turned the whole situation completely ridiculous. That's an understatement. The part that I find silly is that there are now all sorts of retcons to try (unsuccessfully IMO) and make the number at least someone reasonable. So there is a big convoluted mess when instead they could have changed one number.

Essentially they are asking you to believe that say, one Delta Force soldier could take on all the soldiers of the entire earth... and win. I don't care how incompetent the soldiers of the entire earth are... that's just unbelievable!Not only that, but G-canon says it is simply not the case. I can't remember the exact line, but the ATOC novelization mentions that clones are not vastly superior to droids (dispite the Kaminoans' claims). Since there are billions of droids, 3 million clones after the first year doesn't work. And at the Battle of Geonosis, out of 200 Jedi only a handful survived, and I think we can agree that a Jedi is superior to a clone. IIRC there were 200,000 droids at that battle.

To make sense of the scenes I just ignore the EU stuff, and assume there are a lot more clones already out there than implied by the movie and with lots of support troops as well (but you need lots of clones, you can't call it the Clone War if only 1% of your troops are clones, can you?).We do know that there are additional forces than just clones, mainly natives on the various planets. We see this on Utapau in particular. But most of the battles that are depicted in the EU consist mainly of clones.

well actually, I alwys think its the clones who are doing the majority of the fighting. Support personel and such are still filled mostly by non-clones.Sure. But in the films we see clones doing pretty much everything, from piloting to starship gunnery crews and so on. We know that they do more than act as simple soldiers.

In episode 2 they said 1.2 million UNITS, what if one unit is 100 or 1000 clones, that would even the odds slightly. But they would still be smashed.There are several sources, including Karen Traviss's 3 million clones after the first year, that state that 1 unit = 1 clone. There are many reasons why I think this number is simply incorrect:

3 million clones can be transported by 188 Acclimators. Leaving none for Venators, stationing on planets, or crewing anything, including the acclimators.

The NEC says this about Battle of Muunilist: "The Republic countered with sheer numbers, sending hundreds of assault ships, each one groaning from the weight of troopers and war machines. Many vessels reached the surface only as smoldering hulks; others found themselves cut off from their drop zones, forced to make landings behind enemy lines." Technically assault ship means an Acclimator. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/republicassaultship/index.html) That means that the entire clone army was at that battle. Leaving none for anywhere else in the galaxy. According to the EU, this is not true.

One retcon has been that a clone was worth about 200 battle droids to justify the small number. That implies that, in ROTS on Utapau, where there are "thousands of battle droids", the Kenobi would only need a handful of clones. If there were 10,000 droids, he would only need about 50 clones. Yet we see several acclimators flying overhead. Was this complete overkill? Even if there were a million droids, they would only need about 5000 clones, which is one fairly empty acclimator. That ratio just doesn't work.

3 million isn't an unheard of number of soldiers for an army on Earth. Did the GAR not protect any of their holdings after they won them? Yes, there were non-clones involved in the Clone Wars, but in the films apart from Utapau everything we see is done by clones (pilots, crewman, soldier, etc.). And according to the ROTS novel, "the new governors are arriving with full regiments of clone troops…what they call security forces.” So after the war they are used as occupying forces. Yes there can be more than the 3 million number from 2 years before, but how many more? They have a lot of occupying to do. From ANH novelization, Tarkin tells us “This station is the final link in a new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all.”

Even if the Republic had gained an order of magnitude more clones in two years, that is still only 30 clones to occupy a system (not planet). Yes, not every system needs occupying, but the Emperor is trying to enforce his rule, so it is reasonable to assume that most systems would need to be controlled. Even if it is only a third of the systems, probably the upper bound is 90 troopers per system, assuming all those extra clones. At just double the growth, we are looking at 3-9 clones per system.

Yikes.

Shok_Tinoktin
05-06-2006, 12:09 AM
Ultimately, Grievous ended up with a powerful fleet over a poorly defended coruscant, now, if I was in his shoes, I'd have nuked it. No leadership=end of war.

Two words: Planetary Sheilds

Kurgan
05-06-2006, 06:02 AM
Hmm, maybe that's why we only saw two Stormtroopers on Tatooine before Vader sent the "Detachment" to find the stolen plans?

lol.... what a mess

Darth Alec
05-07-2006, 09:54 AM
Prime, you got the last two quotes wrong. I wrote the last thing.

Niner_777
05-07-2006, 05:20 PM
I do think that the clones are better than the droids. A single clone can take out many droids because they have the ability to think. They can find cover. I suppose it is kind of like the American Revolutionary War. The British had way more troops, but they fought out in the open, while the Americans hid behind trees and rocks, which reduced casualties.

However, the droids lost because Sidious wanted them to lose. They might have ended up winning, had they not been shut down, under the order of Sidious.

Kurgan
05-08-2006, 05:53 AM
The problem is there are a billion (or a trillion) droids to every clone trooper, according to the EU numbers. So they can't possibly win, no matter how good they are!

The EU authors, perhaps realizing their mistake, tried to say that the Clones were so awesome they could kill 200 (or 2000) droids before going down. Despite that this is ridiculous considering their performance in the movies (even the Jedi don't do that well!), they would lose badly if this is all they could do.

PoiuyWired
05-08-2006, 02:38 PM
I do think that the clones are better than the droids. A single clone can take out many droids because they have the ability to think. They can find cover. I suppose it is kind of like the American Revolutionary War. The British had way more troops, but they fought out in the open, while the Americans hid behind trees and rocks, which reduced casualties.

However, the droids lost because Sidious wanted them to lose. They might have ended up winning, had they not been shut down, under the order of Sidious.

Well I agree with your second point.

As for your first point:
1) Red is definitely not a good color... you learn that from startrek. It also makes an obvious target.

2) American tactics are better. Even so, there are many external elements to the Revolutionary War, as for CIS vs Republic, there is no known significant external power to interfere.

3) The sheer scale of WoMD is way too different to compare. In starwars both sides have the technology to genoside a whole freaking planet within hours, if not less, also a point mostly avoided by LA and writers.

Niner_777
05-08-2006, 05:27 PM
The problem is there are a billion (or a trillion) droids to every clone trooper, according to the EU numbers.

Oh, if that's the case I don't see any wayt that the clones could win had the Emperor not shut down the doids. Even a jedi doesn't take out a billion (or a trillion) droids. At least I don't think they do.

Prime
05-08-2006, 05:29 PM
Prime, you got the last two quotes wrong. I wrote the last thing.So I did. Damn Cut & Paste! Apologies...

I do think that the clones are better than the droids. They are. But it is impossible for them to be so good as to overcome the absolutely staggering odds.

A single clone can take out many droids because they have the ability to think. They can find cover. I suppose it is kind of like the American Revolutionary War. The British had way more troops, but they fought out in the open, while the Americans hid behind trees and rocks, which reduced casualties.Sure, they had better tactics, but they can only go so far. Tactics cannot overcome the such complete numerical superiority. Sure, you can hide behind a tree from the 150 battle droids, but the other 50 are standing behind you. Can't dodge 200 shots at once...

However, the droids lost because Sidious wanted them to lose. They might have ended up winning, had they not been shut down, under the order of Sidious.But Sidious also had to convince each side that it could win so that they fought on. If the Republic sees that it has 3 million troopers, and the CIS has billions upon billions of battle droids, surely they would surrender. The original (equally ridiculous) number of the CIS droid army was a quintillion droids. That's right, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. So that is a 1,000,000,000,000 to 1 odds. Clone troopers aren't that good. Even if they were worth 200 battle droids, I think you will agree that it falls a little short.

The EU authors, perhaps realizing their mistake, tried to say that the Clones were so awesome they could kill 200 (or 2000) droids before going down. Despite that this is ridiculous considering their performance in the movies (even the Jedi don't do that well!), they would lose badly if this is all they could do.They (she) did realize that they made a mistake, and offered up yet another retcon to try and make things fit with it, instead of just fixing the original number. The change is that the 3 million were only those from Kamino, and that there were also secret facilities on Coruscant. Also, the Republic grossly overestimated the CIS's numbers due to bad intelligence, and is actually closer to hundreds of millions. And the Clone Wars were actually more like brushfire conflicts...

Secret facility on Coruscant? When did this happen? If the facility was set up after the Clone Wars started there isn't nearly enough time to get them into the field. If it was there before, well, that isn't even worth discussing.

Bad intelligence? Sorry, we overestimate the CIS numbers by about 1,000,000,000 times. :rolleyes:

Again, why couldn't they simply change the original number? Afterall, it conflicts with all the previously published numbers.

hk47
05-09-2006, 04:34 AM
Destorying general grievous was what ultimately destoryed them because after his ship was destoryed the cis mostly went into hiding no more attacks or anything then it just went into hunting so its likely that most of the droids were controled my grievous's flagship and the rest of the raid fleets captial ships.

And then when they went to utapal its likely that that was there headquaters so after they destoryed there outpost there billions of droids would have just been disabled like in episode 1.

Then when anakin went to kill the cis leaders on mustafar that would of proably been there last major outposts so after anakin destoryed them there that was the end of he cis only afew more outposts were left but they had no commandos so they just sat there like you see on geononis on starwars:rouge squadron 3.

Canderous_ordo1
05-09-2006, 07:18 AM
they probley diddent have the advantage in numbers in battle
THOSE WHO CANNOT DEFEND THEM SELFS SHOULD NOT BE AROUND THOSE WHO CAN
ive seen that happen alot in many battles and in my own battles also most run off because they cannot defend them self
and really its forfit its pretty true if you think about it the cis never had the advantage in numbers if they had larger numbers they might not have lost if you think about a war that happend recently against the iraqi in desert storm the us had the advantage in numbers so the iraqi had to give up they never had the advantage in numbers

Kurgan
05-09-2006, 01:25 PM
What do you mean? The production show in AOTC alone implies billions of droids, minimum, and only speaks of "one million units" (plus another half a million units=1.5 million "units").

According to the EU there are either "quadrillions" or "quintillions" of droids, a unit for clones equals one soldier, and that they only "tripled" the number of clones, to 3.x million.

So you have:

3,000,000+ clones vs.
2,000,000,000,000,000+ (or)
2,000,000,000,000,000,000+ droids!

So that's equivalent to:
3 to 2,000,000,000 (or 2,000,000,000,000 odds!)

We don't know the population of the CIS systems, they just refer to "thousands of star systems" and then "another 10,000 star systems will rally to our cause" (Dooku, speaking to the other leaders in AOTC). This is enough to spur Civil War with the Republic. The Empire is said to be something like a million star systems according to the movie novelisation iirc (in Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker).

Of course does this mean populated systems? How many living in each?

But ultimately it means little. In the movies the vast majority of the Seperatist forces we see are made up of droids, and the vast majority of the Republic forces are either Clones or Jedi. Yes, they do show local troops backing up their side (Wookiees, Geonosians, Utapauans), but these forces are relatively small by comparison.

Are you saying the CIS had tons of undefended planets and so were stretched too thin? Who knows, but I would think that would be more of a problem for the Republic, especially if they had the miniscule numbers for an army that the EU says they had. I wonder if a system would break away from the Republic to join the CIS if they didn't have some fighting force...


Anyway in the movie everyone acted like killing General Grievous would "end the war" but of course it obviously didn't. After Anakin murdered the Seperatist Leaders on Mustafar Palpatine ordered him to order the droids to all "shut down." Assumedly that could be done from the headquarters there on the planet, so why assume that before then they had shut down billions of droids? In a deleted scene for AOTC, a team of Jedi commandeer the droid control ship over Geonosis and give the shut down order. The droids in the arena stand still for a moment, then sputter back to life on "backup systems" (or something like that). So we're supposed to believe that they thought of this after their embarrassing defeat in TPM at Naboo. Of course this scene never made it into the actual movies, and I can't remember if it was mentioned in the novelisation, but probably.

Prime
05-10-2006, 02:49 PM
According to the EU there are either "quadrillions" or "quintillions" of droids, a unit for clones equals one soldier, and that they only "tripled" the number of clones, to 3.x million.As I pointed out, the canon number for droids is now "hundreds of millions", which also goes against other information. Given the production rate of Geonosis alone, that number can be built up in a matter of days.

So you have:

3,000,000+ clones vs.
2,000,000,000,000,000+ (or)
2,000,000,000,000,000,000+ droids!

So that's equivalent to:
3 to 2,000,000,000 (or 2,000,000,000,000 odds!)

We don't know the population of the CIS systems, they just refer to "thousands of star systems" and then "another 10,000 star systems will rally to our cause" (Dooku, speaking to the other leaders in AOTC). This is enough to spur Civil War with the Republic. The Empire is said to be something like a million star systems according to the movie novelisation iirc (in Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker).As far as I know the million count for the number of star systems in the Empire (and therefore probably a similar if slightly less number for the Republic) is canon.

Which begs the question. Why did Palpatine/the Republic need to create the clone army at all, if it was going to be so few in number (apart from the stuff going on behind the scenes)? I mean, you could take the 3 best soldier off each planet and have the same number. They might not be quite as good as clones, but they would definitely be near that level. A draft in that case would be a much more effective way to build such an army.

Redtech
05-10-2006, 08:52 PM
Well, this ain't realistic. Anyway, as RL shows, you can draft as many troops from as many countries as you want, but quality goes down the pan!

It makes good cinema and lets Lucas play with sci-fi stuff as he pretends he's an expert on robotics and cloning. Heck a single suicide bomber would wipe the senate. 9/11 x1000 methinks.

Darth_Deastron
05-10-2006, 10:46 PM
It doesn't really matter who had the bigger army. The Droids weren't as effecient as the clones. And they had a ton of Jedi on their side, while the CIS only had Droids, more droids, Durge, ventress, Dooku, and Grievous.

Kurgan
05-11-2006, 02:47 AM
Hundreds of millions? So minimum 200 to 1 odds. Are these hacks still claiming that every Clone trooper kills 200 droids?

More nonsense I say, but more realistic than millions of clones vs. "quadrillions" (or quintillions!) of droids.

Why can't these guys and gals just watch the movies carefully and extrapolate from there? Oh well...

PS: Anybody know which source is now claiming "hundreds of millions of droids"? Just curious.

Prime
05-11-2006, 02:38 PM
I think it is in one of the latest Insider magazines.

Commander Obi-Wan
05-11-2006, 02:42 PM
I think it is in one of the latest Insider magazines.

I think it is too. I have it, and I'll check when I get home.

06protoguy
05-15-2006, 02:21 PM
its all been said here im just gonna but it in my own words. The Droids lost on two fronts. The clones even though there numbers were low are better soldiers. They have insticts and feelings. They also in a phitness perspective have much more flexibility. But also they were under control of the emperor so thats how the CIS lost. Its seen in the Revenge of the Sith.

Redtech
05-15-2006, 03:14 PM
Well, this ain't realistic. Anyway, as RL shows, you can draft as many troops from as many countries as you want, but quality goes down the pan!

It makes good cinema and lets Lucas play with sci-fi stuff as he pretends he's an expert on robotics and cloning. Heck a single suicide bomber would wipe the senate. 9/11 x1000 methinks.
I'll arrogantly quote myself for truth.

MachineCult
05-15-2006, 04:57 PM
its all been said here im just gonna but it in my own words. The Droids lost on two fronts. The clones even though there numbers were low are better soldiers. They have insticts and feelings. They also in a phitness perspective have much more flexibility. But also they were under control of the emperor so thats how the CIS lost. Its seen in the Revenge of the Sith.
One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.

06protoguy
05-15-2006, 08:29 PM
One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.

True, Very true. you make a good point. They tried to use numbers instead of stradgey. (Also seen in The Lord of the Rings) But in the end all it took was one man.

boinga1
05-15-2006, 08:50 PM
One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.

Not true at all. I know in TPM, you can see droids ducking under cover in the Theed hallways. Frankly, there is very little cover available in most of the areas that the droids fight (hangars, Geonosis, even Utapau). Obviously, there is no way that the figures given could reflect reality, 200 to 1 odds would be insumountable.

06protoguy
05-15-2006, 09:20 PM
boinga is right i completly forgot about those parts. and he is right about the lack of cover. but i am staying with my decision that in a battle clones will win,

Kurgan
05-16-2006, 06:59 AM
Until ROTS, the tactics of the Clone troopers was really no better than that of the droids. And in ROTS we see them taking HEAVY losses in combat against droids.

What shows them having success in AOTC is the element of surprise and their big guns that seem to be able to blow up droids in one shot. Of course droids can kill the clones in one shot as well, with weaker guns, so there you go.

It's all well and good to say that Clones are superior to droids (the only evidence for that we have in the movies is Lama Su's word for it, but he could just be exaggerating due to pride and to promote his product), but if the EU (Prior to this most recent retcon) is to be believed, they still should have lost, because there's no way that a few million soldiers can win a war against "quintillions" of soldiers even if they are slightly inferior, or even if every clone kills 2,000 droids each (even quadrillions is insanely impossible odds).

Still, even with the retcon, the Clone Wars turn into a tiny skirmish, not a galactic scale war as the movies depict them and we're supposed to believe. And if Clones make up such a tiny portion of the forces involved, why name the entire war after them (as Yoda does after the first battle)?

Given the EU situation (pre retcon), the CIS losing beggared belief, despite Palpatine's meddling and alleged Seperatist incompetance and alleged Clone soldier l33tness...

Now it just makes the war look pointless and inconsequential, far from the epic scale it was always intended to be. I think this is a solid example of EU writers basically all but ruining something cool from the movies. Oh well...


I mean, watching the movies and just forgetting the EU stuff while you do, you get the impression that the two sides are pretty evenly matched, with just some strengths and weaknesses on both sides with fairly even numbers (we just have to assume that "1 unit does not equal 1 individual soldier, otherwise the droid factories if they're all like Geonosis would far outproduce the Republic in short order), and what REALLY changed things was that Palpatine had "fixed" the sides and was playing them both against each other by controlling the top leader (Dooku) and manipulating everyone. THAT was believable, this other stuff that came later... not very much so.

Prime
05-17-2006, 12:48 PM
Now it just makes the war look pointless and inconsequential, far from the epic scale it was always intended to be. I think this is a solid example of EU writers basically all but ruining something cool from the movies. Oh well...Again, all of which could have been avoided if the original number had just been changed.

Kurgan
05-17-2006, 05:30 PM
In the movies (millions of "units") or in the EU literature (3.x million)?

jawathehutt
05-17-2006, 07:43 PM
The rep. in my eyes which arent very in tune with EU, had the vehicle advantage
i mean atte, that wheele swamp thing and other stuff while the CIS had hail fire, spider and aat

Redtech
05-18-2006, 10:35 AM
The number of ground units getting owned is pretty high as well. You see an AT-TE blown away with one Hailfire missile on Geonosis and a UT-AT being killed by a "giant uber virus droid-looking-thing" on Mygeeto. A lot of clones would get wiped by one vehicle being wrecked, but numerically, each functional droid is a unit by it's own right (despite them being inert in BF1/2).

fuzzyfreaker
05-19-2006, 02:10 AM
Wow.... Kargath is the only person I recongnize in this topic... it's been too long...

Anyway, if we are getting on the topic of vehicles of the different opposing sides, i'd have to say that the Republic's vehicles are far superior. Droid Starfighters are have little armor, not very many weapons, and as far as I know they have no shields. Basically they're mainly like cannon fodder... such as TIE fighters are in the OT. Face it, preprogrammed flight paths can't combat the sheer force of ships piloted by multiple clones, they just can make better strategical choices... (Stealth anyone? Crappy movie...) proving to be a more formidible force. This was even more confirmed in the battle between Thrawn and the Trade Federation in Outbound Flight.

Land assault? Same thing... massive amounts of hail-fire droids and other vehicles arn't a match for clone-piloted vehicles.

EDIT: Oh, I see Prime too... guess that's two people I know...

Kurgan
05-19-2006, 03:05 AM
The Republic fighters don't seem so great in ROTS. The Jedi fighters don't seem to have any shields at all... or hyperdrive for that matter, while the droid fighters are equipped with missiles and buzz droids and can transform and crawl around on capital ship hulls...

Prime
05-23-2006, 02:53 PM
In the movies (millions of "units") or in the EU literature (3.x million)?The EU number.

Redtech
05-24-2006, 11:49 AM
Anyway, who exactly is controlling the overall strategy? You don't neede geniuses who can fight, just someone smart to lead them. Think Hannibal, Carthage had a PATHETIC army of mercenaries who still managed to crush the disiplined and millitarily superior Roman army.

Prime
05-24-2006, 12:47 PM
But any real life example of victory against greater you throw out are not of the 3 to 2,000,000,000 variety.

MachineCult
05-24-2006, 04:36 PM
Anyway, who exactly is controlling the overall strategy? You don't neede geniuses who can fight, just someone smart to lead them. Think Hannibal, Carthage had a PATHETIC army of mercenaries who still managed to crush the disiplined and millitarily superior Roman army.
You saw that programme on BBC 1 the other week didn't you. Lol, it was funny seeing Dr Bashir from DS9 as The Carthaginian general.

Prime
05-27-2006, 01:46 AM
An interesting take on the whole number debate and the craziness of SW fandom.

Let the flames begin. (http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/talifans/travissty.html)

Redtech
05-28-2006, 01:04 PM
But any real life example of victory against greater you throw out are not of the 3 to 2,000,000,000 variety.
I was siding with the CIS against the "Droids are too stupid to win" idealology.

---------------
MachineCult, I did see it, I'm a Rome:total War fan, after all... I fear that he might be getting typcast as he might have "arab" roots.

He did good in that role though, despite the small BBC budget.

----------------
An interesting take on the whole number debate and the craziness of SW fandom.

Let the flames begin. (http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/talifans/travissty.html)
More literary Bukkake methinks.

Kurgan
05-28-2006, 01:15 PM
Or rather, let no flaming commence. ;)

Darth Alec
05-29-2006, 11:01 AM
I liked the movie at the end....

Prime
05-29-2006, 02:57 PM
Or rather, let no flaming commence. ;)I mean on that page. :p

KyleOfHarpenden
05-31-2006, 07:56 PM
The CIS lose there leaders and because they have the IQ of a 4 year old

Darth Alec
06-03-2006, 02:20 PM
But the CIS should have won within 30-100 days. 3 years is way to long for 3 million clones to hold of an army millions/billions times its size.

PoiuyWired
06-03-2006, 11:44 PM
I think fatal flaws is deliberately built into CIS so they would be a lot less efficient than what it should be.

CIS is designed to wear out the Jedis, and at the same time, make the clones and Palpy look like a hero.

Darth Xenus
06-05-2006, 04:11 PM
Right, one reason why Palpatine would have prefered the clones to win: if the CIS was going to win, then they would have to openly take down every single Jedi, taking enormous losses, because the Jedi would be expecting the droids to attack them. They didn't know the clones would attack them, that is the only reason that the Jedi were wiped out (apart from Vader, but Sidious+Dooku could have both done the same themselves). And if Sidous had REALLY wanted to take the galaxy by force (as would have been the case with the CIS) he could have quite easily remade the Sith Order on some remote Outer Rim planet that the Republic didn't bother with...

Darth Alec
06-09-2006, 08:12 AM
So what if he took massive loses against the jedi. They are droids, and they outnumber the jedi so much, that it didn't matter.

And rebuilding the sith order on a outback planet simply idn't the sith style. There's a reason for the rule of two.

Redtech
06-09-2006, 09:22 AM
KOTOR tends to show the prob with many Sith every time you see more than 2 attempt to get along.

Valter
09-02-2006, 04:18 AM
The only person in the CIS who knew Palpatine was Sidious was Dooku, I don't believe any other droid/general knew. Therefore, I don't know why Grievous DIDN'T inflict more damage on Coruscant. Sure, Dooku might have said "Don't do it," but after Dooku died, I'd get mad and order all Turbolasers to fire on the planet.

Heck, he could have even fired on the Jedi Temple if he didn't want to REALLY disobey the commander. Dooku wouldn't be able to object; he was a Sith, and it would have looked REALLY suspicious.

The planetary shield would prevent any such bombardment from succeeding.

Kurgan
09-02-2006, 01:43 PM
I thought the planetary shield was down? Either because they were surprised or because it was sabotaged before the battle?

In any case, if it were up, wouldn't it have trapped everyone in the battle ON the planet (since they were supposedly in the upper atmosphere the whole time)?

Of course the planetary shield is a problem for the EU to figure out, since it's never mentioned in the movie (not that it couldn't exist, though some have tried to argue that shields that big didn't exist in the galaxy yet).

PoiuyWired
09-02-2006, 02:19 PM
Well, it seems to suggest that most planetary shields would not prevent ships from foing planetside. That having said almost all ships capable of planetary bombardment are too big to get past the shields since that would require the ship to get into such a low orbit that it would fall.

Kurgan
09-02-2006, 02:27 PM
Fall? C'mon, they have repulsorlifts! We know that Acclamators (which are pretty large, not as big as Imperial Star Destroyers, but darn huge) can make planetary landings (check out the end of AOTC), as can the "battleships" of the Trade Federation (see Episode I, and also the core ships in Episode II).

So just go into the upper atmosphere and start the bombardment. According to the ROTS novel even, there is only a small shield around the Senate building. You could devestate the planet (and the planet was devestated, if nothing else than from falling debris from the battle, again according to the novel).

Logic dictates they could bombard the planet if they wished.

lil_dude
09-04-2006, 11:17 PM
Well the CIS may have won without any interference, in short they were all tricked by Sidious/Palpetine and then slaughtered by Anakin, who is left to lead them now? Sidious/Palpetine obviously is the only one left, and since he controls the Republic as well and has dissolved a large portion of the senate, well now he controls the whole galaxy. It's not at all that the Republic beat the CIS, it's that the CIS was betrayed from within and all were slahed down by Anakin. If we were strictly talking a war with no one playing/controlling both sides and such then the CIS would of probly won, they had greater numbers in troops and they were fairly popular among alot of systems. If you really think about it, the CIS turned out to be the true good guys, since they were fighting to end corruption(yes I know they had evil tactics as well and such, but it's war) in the senate and the galaxy and be a true democracy, while the Republic turned out to be the oppressive empire that we all know from the orginal movies.

quote from wookiepedia about Sidious/Palpetine

"During the Clone Wars, he was the secret de facto leader of the Separatists as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, as well as the de jure leader of the Republic, allowing him to plan and execute the entire war, thus resulting in his ultimate triumph with the rise of his Empire."

One thing so great about the SW saga is the fact that alot of details are left open to interpretation.

PoiuyWired
09-05-2006, 01:17 PM
Actually there are times that the CIS is actually Winning, if not for palpy tipping off the Republic on important intel, like the case with the cortosis droids and what not.

It is just that CIS is betrayed by its top (shadow) command, and most of its leaders are wimps, baring a few like Grevi, Dooku, and that Chiss hottie.

Darth Xenus
09-05-2006, 02:04 PM
It was all about the Jedi, if the whole Jedi Order had been organised to fight an obvious threat (such as the CIS) their enemy wouldn't have stood a chance, as it was they had no idea who the real enemy was until it was far too late for them to do anything. Also, its far easier to control people who supported your rise to power, so Palpatine would have wanted the Republic to 'win' because it would then be easier to control the galaxy. If the CIS had 'won' then a rebellion would have sprung p much earlier.

Prime
09-05-2006, 02:17 PM
If you really think about it, the CIS turned out to be the true good guys, since they were fighting to end corruptionThat is what they claimed of course, but the real goal was to have more and freer control over commerce so they could line their pockets.

lil_dude
09-05-2006, 03:27 PM
That is what they claimed of course, but the real goal was to have more and freer control over commerce so they could line their pockets.

Of course, they wanted a true capatalist and democratic galaxy. Price gouging and all.

Prime
09-06-2006, 12:45 PM
not just that, they wanted to be involved with making the rules by which they had to play by.

PoiuyWired
09-06-2006, 01:22 PM
Well, somethimes, "enemy of the bad guy" does not mean good guy.

Redtech
09-08-2006, 08:02 AM
Oh, yes, that is exactly why we're so screwed in the war on terror...nearly all the people we're fighting are ex-allies against another enemy!

An enemy of an enemy is not a friend!!!